question about invisibility

[shultays]

If openning doors breaks the invisibility, how looting potions from a corpse and pouring them to a friend's mouth does not break it?

[The Blackbird]

Opening a door does not break invisibility, however Xykon seeing the door being opened would lead to some area of effect spell going right up V's ass.

[shultays]

hmm then i think V could easily escape while Xykon was dealing with O-Chul

[Optimystik]

hmm then i think V could easily escape while Xykon was dealing with O-Chul

V was about to, but then he realized that abandoning O-Chul would be a pretty d*** move.

[abishur]

Opening a door does not break invisibility, however Xykon seeing the door being opened would lead to some area of effect spell going right up V's ass.

Total agreement. To be fair, it could also be said that V took quiet the risk by grabing the potions because they didn't turn invisable. It was just less risky/noticable then opening a door would have been.

Besides, the fiends don't say that it would break the spell, just that it was the bane of all invisable characters.

[The Blackbird]

hmm then i think V could easily escape while Xykon was dealing with O-Chul

From the look of things Xykon finished up with O-Chul when V reached the door.

[factotum]

Xykon had definitely already finished with O-Chul by the time V reached the door...you can see V standing next to the door while Xykon says off-panel, "Now, where did that elf go...?" in strip #656.

[theinsulabot]

whats interesting is xykon didnt use true seeing or some such. i know he might if wanted to play a head game with V, but that seems stupid. what if v had simply climbed out the window like he was planning? he would of completely gotten away. doesn't seem like x to voluntarily give away a toy he could physically and mentally tortured for months, just for a little mind screw

[HamsterOfTheGod]

If openning doors breaks the invisibility, how looting potions from a corpse and pouring them to a friend's mouth does not break it?
Opening a door does not break it. Neither does helping a friend. Neither does summoning a monster and having it attack an opponent. But if a character under the 2nd level invisibility spell directly attacks another that does break the spell.

Now if the character is using the 4th level greater invibility spell or is naturally invisible, then they can still attack directly without breaking invisibility.

Opening a door, or helping a friend or just walking while invisible does not prevent an opponent from seeing the door being opened, or seeing the friend healing or hearing any of these actions and thereby deducing the presence (or approximate location) of an invisible actor.

V hesitated to open the door because Xykon would probably notice such an obvious action. Climbing down the side was less risky because Xykon would have less chance of noticing or hearing (given the distance).

V chose to come back and help O-Chul. So while Xykon's back was turned, he performed the actions that helped O-Chul. He had to sneak past Xykon twice. On the second pass, Xykon succeeded in using his hearing to locate V (that is pinpointing the square he as on with a Listen check).

[adrejer]

Could be that Xykon do not have any spells to detect invisible creatures...

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Could be that Xykon do not have any spells to detect invisible creatures...

For me that is...difficult to believe. But then again V does not know Limited Wish...

[theinsulabot]

Could be that Xykon do not have any spells to detect invisible creatures...

the thought occurred to me, but seems HIGHLY unlikely. even x has a few nich spells, like moderately escapable force cage and superior dispel, and many things when NOT waning to be tortured/killed by the big scary lich are gonna want to go invisible and sneak off, seems like x would have a problem with that.

[Warmage]

Could be that Xykon do not have any spells to detect invisible creatures...

Knowing Xykon, he'd probably never use them even if he had them. Why cast true seeing, when you can just blanket the area with fireballs or a meteor swarm?

[factotum]

the thought occurred to me, but seems HIGHLY unlikely. even x has a few nich spells, like moderately escapable force cage and superior dispel

Superb Dispelling is an epic spell and is thus completely outside of Xykon's normal spells known and spells castable limits--epic spellcasting depends purely on how many epic spellcasting feats you have, not your level or how many lower-level spells you know. Therefore it's irrelevant to a discussion about why Xykon might choose to not have one of his limited spell slots occupied by a True Seeing spell.

I don't find it that hard to believe that Xykon is relying on Redcloak for utility spells like True Seeing, anyway. He trusts the goblin enough to allow him to have his phylactery round his neck at all times, after all. The Moderately Escapable Forcecage was a spell Xykon had to create and use, because AFAIK clerics can't research spells like wizards and sorcerers can, so again, it's not too surprising Xykon had it considering the plan to find the Azure City gate relied on it.

[Snake-Aes]

Superb Dispelling is an epic spell and is thus completely outside of Xykon's normal spells known and spells castable limits--epic spellcasting depends purely on how many epic spellcasting feats you have, not your level or how many lower-level spells you know. Therefore it's irrelevant to a discussion about why Xykon might choose to not have one of his limited spell slots occupied by a True Seeing spell.

I don't find it that hard to believe that Xykon is relying on Redcloak for utility spells like True Seeing, anyway. He trusts the goblin enough to allow him to have his phylactery round his neck at all times, after all. The Moderately Escapable Forcecage was a spell Xykon had to create and use, because AFAIK clerics can't research spells like wizards and sorcerers can, so again, it's not too surprising Xykon had it considering the plan to find the Azure City gate relied on it.Epic spell slot amount is not linked to any feat. You just need Epic Casting. With that talent, you have one epic spell slot for every 10 ranks in Knowledge(Nature/Religion/Arcana). I think you also need 10 in spellcraft per slot, but spellcraft's a given.

[factotum]

Still doesn't change the fact that Epic Spellcasting ability is not directly tied to the caster's normal spellcasting ability, does it?

[Kish]

With that talent, you have one epic spell slot for every 10 ranks in Knowledge(Nature/Religion/Arcana).
It's frightening to contemplate that Xykon knows more about magic than Vaarsuvius or probably any wizard in the OotS world.

He doesn't care, but he knows.

[pasko77]

I don't find it that hard to believe that Xykon is relying on Redcloak for utility spells like True Seeing, anyway.

Not probable, since when he met Redcloak, he was already epic (or about 18/21 level).
Therefore, his spell choices had already been made, and something to spot invisible is simply too useful not to have.

Even if, levelling, X could remove his true seeing spell for something else, it is very unlikely that such an arrogant character willingly becomes dependant of another spellcaster's ability.

I think he simply did want to play cat and mouse with Varsuuvius.

[Red XIV]

But then again V does not know Limited Wish...
That would be according to who, exactly?

[Killer Angel]

I think he simply did want to play cat and mouse with Varsuuvius.

This.
Also, catching V. with only his (keen) senses, without relying on magic, enhance all Xykon's speech about Power.

[factotum]

Not probable, since when he met Redcloak, he was already epic (or about 18/21 level).
Therefore, his spell choices had already been made, and something to spot invisible is simply too useful not to have.


You're assuming that Xykon has not levelled up ONCE in the 30+ years he and Redcloak have known each other? Sorcerers can change their spells known every level, you know. Also, you're looking at this like a powergamer, and Xykon isn't a powergamer. To him, another spell that allows him to blast something is likely a lot more useful than something to see invisibility; especially since, for all we know, he's never encountered an invisible enemy before in his life (Dorukan and Fyron certainly never tried to turn invisible, which was maybe their mistake).

[pasko77]

You're assuming that Xykon has not levelled up ONCE in the 30+ years he and Redcloak have known each other?

No, as I said, it is improbable that, when levelling, X is willing to discard his see invisibility/glitterdust/true seeing/whatever for Yet Another Blast and become dependant on RC.

[factotum]

No, as I said, it is improbable that, when levelling, X is willing to discard his see invisibility/glitterdust/true seeing/whatever for Yet Another Blast and become dependant on RC.

Which is still assuming he had those things in the first place. I repeat, you're thinking like a D&D powergamer, not like someone who's actually existed 100+ years in this world, and if Xykon has not had to fight anyone (or anything) that turned invisible, he probably wouldn't see the reason to have a spell that allows him to see invisible beings. Similarly, a lot of people accused Elan of making a suboptimal spell choice in picking Neutralise Poison when he levelled up, but that's ignoring the fact he's twice been in a situation where the spell would have been darned useful--e.g. he picked the spell because there were situations where he'd personally required it, not because it was the optimal choice for his level.

[Taekwondodo]

Knowing Xykon, he'd probably never use them even if he had them. Why cast true seeing, when you can just blanket the area with fireballs or a meteor swarm?

That does sound like something that Xykon would do.

[Kareasint]

Could be that Xykon do not have any spells to detect invisible creatures...

Probably not. Sorcerers only get to know a limited number of spells but can cast them without preparing them. Since Xykon is epic level, he would use the 20th level list and know three 6th level spells (True Seeing is that level). He probably has other spells selected.

[Teddy]

Not probable, since when he met Redcloak, he was already epic (or about 18/21 level).
Therefore, his spell choices had already been made, and something to spot invisible is simply too useful not to have.

SoD spoiler:
he was 16 when he bcame a lich, and Redcloak was 12 back then

And he's got this superb listen check, making the pinpointing of invisible characters without using magic quite easy. And then its just to start blasting...

[pasko77]

SoD spoiler:
he was 16 when he bcame a lich, and Redcloak was 12 back then

And he's got this superb listen check, making the pinpointing of invisible characters without using magic quite easy. And then its just to start blasting...


Uhm, no. He was at least 18th level when he fought Lirian, he tried Eneergy drain, which is a 9th level, that sorcs get at 18. And Redcloak could not cast heal, putting him at 10th level at most, while he could cast Flame Strike, so 9th at least (if i remember correctly the spell levels).


Maybe, it is effectively in character not to have a puny "see invisibility", which is a 2nd level spell. We don't have evidence he can see invisibility.

[Optimystik]

Sorcerers can change their spells known every level, you know.

You're thinking 3e. In 3.5, sorcerers can only change one spell, and then only every even level.

Of course, SoD may have been 3e or 3.5; we're not sure.


SoD spoiler:
he was 16 when he bcame a lich, and Redcloak was 12 back then

Highly unlikely, he was fighting the already Epic Lirian toe to toe before her virus kicked in.

[derfenrirwolv]

You can open a door and stay invisible... but unless there's an auspicious draft people suspecting an invisible person will have an idea of where you are.

Other things you can do while invisible

Summon a creature to rip someone's face off

Rut a rope to send someone plunging to their deaths

Pull a rope that springs a trap.

[Douglas]

You're thinking 3e. In 3.5, sorcerers can only change one spell, and then only every even level.

Of course, SoD may have been 3e or 3.5; we're not sure.
No, he's thinking NWN. In 3e, sorcerers couldn't change spells known at all IIRC. In NWN, I think they can change out every last spell on their list every single time they level up. NWN2 follows 3.5 rules for that, though.

[FujinAkari]

Of course, SoD may have been 3e or 3.5; we're not sure.

Considering that Strip #1 was the conversion to 3.5, SoD would have had to be 3.0

[Optimystik]

Considering that Strip #1 was the conversion to 3.5, SoD would have had to be 3.0

Yes, but SoD was written well, well after that; it was set before, but that doesn't make it a hard and fast rule.

[Dagren]

Yes, but SoD was written well, well after that; it was set before, but that doesn't make it a hard and fast rule.OotPCs was also written after comic #1, and they mention that they're in 3.0 in that.

[Optimystik]

OotPCs was also written after comic #1, and they mention that they're in 3.0 in that.

SoD was written after OtOoPCs too; my point still stands. In other words, at any point after penning Origin, The Giant could have decided to drop the 3.0 gag. We have no definitive proof either way.

[Dagren]

SoD was written after OtOoPCs too; my point still stands. In other words, at any point after penning Origin, The Giant could have decided to drop the 3.0 gag. We have no definitive proof either way.I suppose, but is there any reason to think that?

[hamishspence]

Sorcerers- as a separate class, definitely 3.0 to 3.5. Add in Haley's "My daddy was a 1st edition thief- it runs in the family" and comments about previous editions might need to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Also Xykon's "damage reduction up the wazzoo" comment doesn't work in 3.0- then, dragons as powerful as the one Lirian turned into, and liches, had the same DR (/+1) and so she would have been able to overcome it. But in 3.5, its magic and bludgeoning, so her claw attacks don't work.