Thoughts on Redcloak and Word of Recall

[Fitzclowningham]

I was thinking about where RC might have sent himself when he cast Word of Recall, and realized that there just aren't that many completely safe places with which he is intimately familiar.

His native village? Nope. Dorukan's castle/dungeon? No. His brother's ex-village? Sorry. Anywhere in Azure City? Probably not if he's to the point he has to hit the red eject button. The rest of the time we've seen him, he's been in transit, not stopping long enough to familiarize himself with anywhere in particular.

And I thought that an utterly safe (but unlikely) place for him to have selected would have been
the underground cave where Lirian imprisoned him and Xykon.

Which would be funny, because it would mean that RC would have to wait at least 8 hours to return, by casting WoR again. And then it hit me: why didn't RC just cast WoR the first time he was stuck there? SRD says he could have brought with him at least two other willing creatures.

I know, I know, plot. Still, I would have thought RC was smarter than that.

[Douglas]

why didn't RC just cast WoR the first time he was stuck there? SRD says he could have brought with him at least two other willing creatures.

I know, I know, plot. Still, I would have thought RC was smarter than that.
Because he wasn't high enough level to be able to back then.

[abishur]

I was thinking about where RC might have sent himself when he cast Word of Recall, and realized that there just aren't that many completely safe places with which he is intimately familiar.


If I were to hazard a guess, I might wonder if they left (or have at somepoint after the battle sent) a small contengiency of hobos to that outpost they captured on the way to Azure city or perhaps back in the valley where all the hobos came from. If so, that would be an ideal spot to recal to




Which would be funny, because it would mean that RC would have to wait at least 8 hours to return, by casting WoR again. And then it hit me: why didn't RC just cast WoR the first time he was stuck there? SRD says he could have brought with him at least two other willing creatures.

I know, I know, plot. Still, I would have thought RC was smarter than that.

The fact that Redcloak has the WoR shows his intelligence. I mean, you'll notice that he didn't use it at the gate fight either where he and Xy were about to die in each other's arms. The WoR thing is something he just got. He's realized that his plans have come far too close to ultimate distruction twice now and has taken the steps to make sure at the very least he can escape with the phylactery so the plan can continue.

[Fitzclowningham]

Are you sure? I knew he wasn't able to cast Regenerate at the time, but he did gain the ability not very long after. I thought at that point he was 1-2 levels shy of 13 at the most.

[Douglas]

I haven't read Start of Darkness myself, but I've seen a comment on the forums about Redcloak saying he couldn't cast Heal due to insufficient levels, and I think that was for about the same point in the story. Heal and Word of Recall are the same level, so if he couldn't cast Heal then he couldn't cast WoR either.

[abishur]

I haven't read Start of Darkness myself

go get it. (http://apegames.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=OOTS03&Category_Code=) It is well worth the money :smalltongue:

[Porthos]

Are you sure? I knew he wasn't able to cast Regenerate at the time, but he did gain the ability not very long after. I thought at that point he was 1-2 levels shy of 13 at the most.

Very sure. That was the same cave where he said he could not cast Heal due to not being high enough level (which, as douglas pointed out is the same level as WoR).

As for Regeneration, he got that about twenty six years later (during a scene that showed the attack on Dorukan, he mentions that he first got 7th level spells a year before).

There was a wee bit of a gap, timewise, between the attack on Lirian's Glade and Dorukan's Dungeon. :smalltongue:

[factotum]

Very sure. That was the same cave where he said he could not cast Heal due to not being high enough level (which, as douglas pointed out is the same level as WoR).

As for Regeneration, he got that about twenty six years later (during a scene that showed the attack on Dorukan, he mentions that he first got 7th level spells a year before).


Darn it! I'd just looked up that very information, but you beat me to it!

[Fitzclowningham]

Thanks, Porthos. I don't have the book here, and I only remember him saying he couldn't cast regeneration for R-E. Didn't even remember that Heal came up.

I still think it would be funny if Rich cut to RC in the cave twiddling his thumbs.

[Optimystik]

Why would he pick a druid's prison underneath an elven forest as his hiding place? Even the diner would be a more likely bolt-hole.

My money says it's somewhere we haven't seen yet - after all, we don't know where they've been keeping Right-Eye.

Or it could be set to their first lair, the one they owned before they took on Dorukan.

[theinsulabot]

i dont think RC is getting enough credit here. he is the villain who plans ahead, he isnt quite a chess master, but somebody rocking titanium and chlorine elementals knows how to set things up in advance. RC has very likely prepared a spot out of the way somewhere, set guards, has it covered in traps, placed a healer on retainer, placed enough magical items, scrolls and money to re-equip himself from the ground up. likely its also warded against scrying, though of course not teleportation. i find it very hard to believe that Rc wouldnt have have made damn sure his last ditch defense spell wasn't designed from the ground up to be an absolutely safe, secure place where he could go to recuperate, without fear of attack from any source

[Kornaki]

i dont think RC is getting enough credit here. he is the villain who plans ahead, he isnt quite a chess master, but somebody rocking titanium and chlorine elementals knows how to set things up in advance. RC has very likely prepared a spot out of the way somewhere, set guards, has it covered in traps, placed a healer on retainer, placed enough magical items, scrolls and money to re-equip himself from the ground up. likely its also warded against scrying, though of course not teleportation. i find it very hard to believe that Rc wouldnt have have made damn sure his last ditch defense spell wasn't designed from the ground up to be an absolutely safe, secure place where he could go to recuperate, without fear of attack from any source

Considering it seems he's only thought up the idea of word of recall after the Azure City battle, I'm willing to be it's not that prepared

[theinsulabot]

Considering it seems he's only thought up the idea of word of recall after the Azure City battle, I'm willing to be it's not that prepared

yeah, i get that WoR has to be fairly new because he didnt use it in X's thrown room, but they have had months in azure city. i just find it very difficult to think somebody RC wouldn't set himself a well hidden, safe refuge the very day he learned the spell. RC isnt like most of the rest of oots, he plans ahead, and more importantly, he doesnt delay doing necessary if not immediately useful jobs. such as founding a new goblin city and getting its trade routes established. planning a safe WoR spot seems like it would be pretty close to the top of his "things to do" list"

[R. Malcovitch]

I immediately thought of his original village that the Sapphire Guard destroyed, the one where he first got the Crimson Mantle. It provides a nice desolate, empty atmosphere, probably some ruins, nice place for a little quiet solidarity. It's an almost gothic environment. Also, considering that was the last place Redcloak was his own person and not, well, Redcloak it would be fitting as the place where he would feel the biggest connection to.

[Estelindis]

I'm reckoning it's somewhere Xykon doesn't know he's been, and thus wouldn't be able to guess while waiting for the Cloister to wear off (since, in spite of being allied with Xykon, Redcloak has many reasons not to trust him).

[Tingel]

My money says it's somewhere we haven't seen yet - after all, we don't know where they've been keeping Right-Eye.
Is he still around? Do you assume that Redcloak kept his undead body out of nostalgia? As a cleric he understands how necromancy works and thus knows that his brother is gone anway, so I doubt he'd treat his walking corpse differently from all the other random zombies Team Evil employs. It seems unlikely that Righteye's undead remains "survived" this long.

[factotum]

I'm reckoning it's somewhere Xykon doesn't know he's been, and thus wouldn't be able to guess while waiting for the Cloister to wear off (since, in spite of being allied with Xykon, Redcloak has many reasons not to trust him).

In which case, Redcloak's old village would be perfect...Xykon's never been there. Xykon can't even scry for Redcloak's location, because RC is still under the effects of Cloister for however long it's due to last.

[Fitzclowningham]

The reason I ruled out RC's village as a likely spot is that

the Sapphire Guard pretty much devastated it and killed all but two of the goblins there. It's definitely not much of a sanctuary at the moment.

[David Argall]

I immediately thought of his original village that the Sapphire Guard destroyed, the one where he first got the Crimson Mantle. It provides a nice desolate, empty atmosphere, probably some ruins, nice place for a little quiet solidarity. It's an almost gothic environment. Also, considering that was the last place Redcloak was his own person and not, well, Redcloak it would be fitting as the place where he would feel the biggest connection to.

See 191. "If you leave it empty, some random monster is going to show up and start living there." A redcloak in enough trouble to need to flee this far is apt to be not able to handle such risks.

So a refuge in Azure City is much better. He can guard it and can return to duty quickly if that seems wise, or flee the city if it is not.

[Snake-Aes]

See 191. "If you leave it empty, some random monster is going to show up and start living there." A redcloak in enough trouble to need to flee this far is apt to be not able to handle such risks.

So a refuge in Azure City is much better. He can guard it and can return to duty quickly if that seems wise, or flee the city if it is not.

That kinda applies only to dungeons and hideouts.

[Antacid]

I'm reckoning it's somewhere Xykon doesn't know he's been, and thus wouldn't be able to guess while waiting for the Cloister to wear off (since, in spite of being allied with Xykon, Redcloak has many reasons not to trust him).
I'd take this as far as to say that Redcloak may walk around with Word Of Recall prepared primarily because of Xykon. Xykon's carelessness is easily the biggest threat to The Plan overall thus far, and what if Xykon were to find out (or already know) something about how Redcloak has been misleading him so far?

Perhaps the place Redcloak would use as a sanctum is somehow related to his the whereabouts of his neice?

Of course, he could just be somewhere else in the tower. :smallconfused:

[abishur]

I'm reckoning it's somewhere Xykon doesn't know he's been, and thus wouldn't be able to guess while waiting for the Cloister to wear off (since, in spite of being allied with Xykon, Redcloak has many reasons not to trust him).

Rich has definately made it clear that Red doesn't trust Xy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html) but, he's made it equally clear that Red will never do anything to betray Xy (well not yet I suppose) in "The Start of Darkness"

I'm willing to bet that Xy knows about it, or at least that Redcloak hasn't tried to hide it from him (We all know how well Xy listens to strategy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html))

I mean, it seems like this was set up by redcloak to prevent a situation from arising like it did when Soon was kicking thier butts. To make sure the two of them were never facing distruction at the same time.

As a side note, I don't know how the Word of Recal spell actually works. Does it bind you to a certain spot, or could redcloak have teleported to any destination he chose at that specific moment?

[Elderac]

I don't think it specifies it anywhere, but I've always played it as the cleric has to specify the destination when he or she prepares word of recall for the day. It can change from day to day, but the way I look at it is word of recall is a bail out spell and you don't want to have to stop and think of where you are going, just say the word and go.

I think Redcloak has teleported to somewhere in Azure Redcloak city, perhaps his personal quarters or a temple he may have set up to the Dark One.

[Morthis]

Rich has definately made it clear that Red doesn't trust Xy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html) but, he's made it equally clear that Red will never do anything to betray Xy (well not yet I suppose) in "The Start of Darkness"

I'm willing to bet that Xy knows about it, or at least that Redcloak hasn't tried to hide it from him (We all know how well Xy listens to strategy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html))

I mean, it seems like this was set up by redcloak to prevent a situation from arising like it did when Soon was kicking thier butts. To make sure the two of them were never facing distruction at the same time.

As a side note, I don't know how the Word of Recal spell actually works. Does it bind you to a certain spot, or could redcloak have teleported to any destination he chose at that specific moment?

You need to pick a destination when you prepare the spell.

[Optimystik]

Is he still around? Do you assume that Redcloak kept his undead body out of nostalgia? As a cleric he understands how necromancy works and thus knows that his brother is gone anway, so I doubt he'd treat his walking corpse differently from all the other random zombies Team Evil employs. It seems unlikely that Righteye's undead remains "survived" this long.

His brother's remains do matter to him; he wanted to bury them in SoD and was forbidden from doing so by Xykon. The zombie then followed a teary Redcloak into the tower. That's a Chekhov's Gun if I ever saw one.

[abishur]

I don't think it specifies it anywhere, but I've always played it as the cleric has to specify the destination when he or she prepares word of recall for the day. It can change from day to day, but the way I look at it is word of recall is a bail out spell and you don't want to have to stop and think of where you are going, just say the word and go.

I think Redcloak has teleported to somewhere in Azure Redcloak city, perhaps his personal quarters or a temple he may have set up to the Dark One.

I had a feeling that was how it worked, but it never hurts to know :smallbiggrin:

I would imagine it is somewhere removed from Azure/Redcloak City simply due to the fact that Redcloak is a smart guy, and if your in so much trouble that you need to use the WoR then it would stand to reason that any location in the same town/dungeon as you would be equally overrun by the very thing you were trying to flee.

Of course, this line of thinking is rendered false if Redcloak just transported into some secret alcove right next to the room full of heal potions and ability boosters :smallwink:

[quick_comment]

As a side note, I don't know how the Word of Recal spell actually works. Does it bind you to a certain spot, or could redcloak have teleported to any destination he chose at that specific moment?

You choose where it leads to when you prepare it in the morning.


I agree that its not Azure city, or anywhere Xykon has been to. Redcloak is smart enough to know that.

[factotum]

So a refuge in Azure City is much better. He can guard it and can return to duty quickly if that seems wise, or flee the city if it is not.

Unless, of course, the person he's fleeing from is Xykon. This is Redcloak we're talking about...he seems pretty prepared for every eventuality, and he's come out of Xykon's shadow a bit since the Dungeon of Dorukan. I don't think he's at a point where he would betray Xykon, but I think he might be in a position where he'd be considering what he should do if Xykon betrays HIM.

Also, Word of Recall is Redcloak's absolute last, desperate get-out ploy. Considering he's in the middle of a city guarded by ten thousand hobgoblins and an epic sorcerer, he would probably assume any force that was capable of getting to him would already have overrun the city, and thus he'd NEED to set the Recall destination to somewhere outside. Better that he lives to carry out the Plan than get killed and the Crimson Mantle possibly lost or captured!

So, unless Redcloak prepared TWO Word of Recall spells with different destinations, I think it's entirely reasonable that he is no longer in Azure City.

[B. Dandelion]

This is exactly the kind of question that drives people to "meta" fiction answers; mine here is that if Redcloak is outside of Azure City, that ridiculously over-powered Cloister spell suddenly looks a hell of a lot less ridiculous, because it could not possibly be calculated any better to throw a huge wrench in the gears of Team Evil's general operations. The Order had plenty of difficulty only with half of its team rendered un-scry-able. If we take it as a theme of the last arc, or even arc-and-a-half, that Redcloak's team can't function without him, (e.g. 543, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html) also one of the main selling points of SoD was also the chance to learn "why on earth Redcloak puts up with Xykon's crap") then it would be pretty appropriate (and likely hilarious) for the next arc to show said team trying and failing to do exactly that.

Which is also good in that it levels the playing field. Team Evil's been the biggest bad on the block since Azure City's fall. The OOTS recovers from Cloister just as Team Evil gets gobsmacked with the same idiocy? I must confess that I do not object to this scenario. I still think Cloister's crazy, but potentially "like a fox" as they say (plus Dorukan is laughing his head off).

Non-meta, I agree with those who think Word of Recall would almost certainly have been prepared with Xykon in mind. But like in the other thread, I don't know if it matters so much "where" he's gone in a geographical sense. It's the people he'll meet or whatever self-reflection (if any) goes on, which could potentially be anything. I wouldn't even be surprised if it was some location we'd never heard of.

[David Argall]

SoDHis brother's remains do matter to him; he wanted to bury them in SoD and was forbidden from doing so by Xykon. The zombie then followed a teary Redcloak into the tower. That's a Chekhov's Gun if I ever saw one.

SoD It's been two years now, and Redcloak has lost nearly everything that was in that tower. Brother certainly was not following along with the fleeing Xykon. His [final] purpose was to show Redcloak accepting his role as Xykon's lackey, and he will not appear again [except maybe in memory].



if Redcloak is outside of Azure City, that ridiculously over-powered Cloister spell suddenly looks a hell of a lot less ridiculous, because it could not possibly be calculated any better to throw a huge wrench in the gears of Team Evil's general operations.
Which is a very powerful reason to assume it is somewhere in Azure City.



Unless, of course, the person he's fleeing from is Xykon.
He can't flee from Xykon. Xykon casts Epic Smite Annoying Minion, and the Dark One is looking for a goblin cleric who wants a slightly used cloak.
He can flee from O-Chul, resistance assassins, adventurers who manage to sneak in, and random wandering monsters by having a refuge nearby. A much more useful option.

Recall here too that Redcloak's whole life is tied up with Xykon. If the lich finds out he has been played for a sucker, it doesn't matter if Redcloak lives or dies. His life's work is in absolute ruins, destroyed, total disaster. Why make escape plans to make that possibility only 99.99% dark instead of 100%? Much better to make escape plans for things like O-Chul where escape means the plan stays on track.

[factotum]

He can't flee from Xykon. Xykon casts Epic Smite Annoying Minion, and the Dark One is looking for a goblin cleric who wants a slightly used cloak.


So you're basing your entire argument on Xykon having researched an epic spell we've never seen? Don't know why that should surprise me, but somehow it does. Xykon has to find Redcloak before he can do anything to him, anyway, and his own Cloister spell is preventing that right now...

[David Argall]

The point is that if Xykon wants to take out Redcloak, there is nothing Redcloak can do to prevent it. He can barely delay it.

Whether or not Xykon currently has ESAM is unimportant. He can research it if he wants to, and then use it at whim. It merely illustrates that Redcloak is at the lich's mercy, and trying to escape is not going to work.

[AstralStorm]

The point is that if Xykon wants to take out Redcloak, there is nothing Redcloak can do to prevent it. He can barely delay it.

Whether or not Xykon currently has ESAM is unimportant. He can research it if he wants to, and then use it at whim. It merely illustrates that Redcloak is at the lich's mercy, and trying to escape is not going to work.

That's why he had the phylactery - should Xykon try to betray him, it's a good bargaining chip. And Redcloak actually knows all the abjurations on it and even might've engineered some kind of failsafe destruction too.

The problem is of course that Xykon might be able to build a new one - if that's possible.

Edit: Oh right, and the mantle might provide nondetection as well, why not...

[B. Dandelion]

Which is a very powerful reason to assume it is somewhere in Azure City.

Why? Setting Team Evil back a few notches doesn't render them impotent, it just gives the other players (the other 8+ "sides") a more realistic shot at victory. Considering how easily they managed to curb-stomp V (and by extension the IFCC) when working in tandem, they're head and shoulders above the other contenders even without factoring in the hobgoblin army that they won't be able to take across the ocean.

[Optimystik]

SoD It's been two years now, and Redcloak has lost nearly everything that was in that tower. Brother certainly was not following along with the fleeing Xykon. His [final] purpose was to show Redcloak accepting his role as Xykon's lackey, and he will not appear again [except maybe in memory].

We'll see. Even if the physical corpse is no longer present, a location that has meaning to both of them is also useful (or failing that, just a mirror.)



Edit: Oh right, and the mantle might provide nondetection as well, why not...

That's unlikely, or the paladins in SoD wouldn't have been able to home in on its previous owner to find Redcloak's village.



Whether or not Xykon currently has ESAM is unimportant. He can research it if he wants to, and then use it at whim. It merely illustrates that Redcloak is at the lich's mercy, and trying to escape is not going to work.

Xykon would likely go and collect Redcloak, but I doubt he would smite him for anything less that full-out rebellion.

[Fish]

Much better to make escape plans for things like O-Chul where escape means the plan stays on track.
No: much better to make escape plans for things like, oh, let's see, the localized Snarl rift. Redcloak has been taunting the thing daily with O-Chul at his side, and the thing has been ... strangely quiet. I don't believe that Redcloak doesn't have some emergency "get me the hell away from the Snarl, just in case" button.

[factotum]

That's unlikely, or the paladins in SoD wouldn't have been able to home in on its previous owner to find Redcloak's village.


What makes you think they "homed in" on him? Redcloak's mentor was a reasonably high level cleric and presumably had possessed the Crimson Mantle for some time...in addition, the paladins didn't seem to be able to track Redcloak down once he had the artifact, or they would have tracked him down and killed him not long after he left the village. Therefore, they can't just scry for the location of the Crimson Mantle, they have to get other intelligence to find it.

[abishur]

What makes you think they "homed in" on him? Redcloak's mentor was a reasonably high level cleric and presumably had possessed the Crimson Mantle for some time...in addition, the paladins didn't seem to be able to track Redcloak down once he had the artifact, or they would have tracked him down and killed him not long after he left the village. Therefore, they can't just scry for the location of the Crimson Mantle, they have to get other intelligence to find it.

Yeah, besides the previous bearer of the crimson himself goes "Oh crap, they found me!" (excessively paraphrased version of course) implying that the paladins had most likely been searching long and hard for him. But, maybe that's what you mean, that they "honed(sic) in" on him

[David Argall]

That's why he had the phylactery - should Xykon try to betray him, it's a good bargaining chip.

SoD Redcloak tried that already, and Xykon faced him down. Told him to go ahead and damage it if he wanted to die painfully. Xykon won that confrontation and they both know he will win the next one too.

[abishur]

SoD Redcloak tried that already, and Xykon faced him down. Told him to go ahead and damage it if he wanted to die painfully. Xykon won that confrontation and they both know he will win the next one too.

additionally,

Redcloak made it clear with what happened with his brother that he would never betray Xy until the gate was in his control at least

Plus Xy has equally made a pact not to off Redcloak, so I wouldn't hold my breath as that line of thought even being relevant until much later in the story. Rather it really seems that the whole point in the WoR was to ensure the continued survival of the plan. In a worst case scenario Redcloak escapes with the phylactery for Xy to make a new body. Which coincidently is why Azure city would be bad location for the WoR to take him. This is your last ditch "get me the hell outta here Mr. Wizard" spell...word... whatever.

The location would most likely be some location that would have a high enough chance of being secure no matter what situation was going down. (which is why my biggest bet is on the valley of the hobbos)

[Liwen]

I do not know where Redcloak teleported to, but I sure think it would be kinda lame if he was just porting to the next building or something similar. He had his eye poked out. That wasn't just Karma or tribute to O-Chul badasstitude, it's bound to initialize new character development into him. So any place which would remind him of his past and possible mistake he made along the way would be great.

My money is on Lirian's underground prison. he spent 3 months in there working on the phylactery and it was a turning point in his life, the moment he did the worst mistake he could have ever done : Give XYKON! eternity and lots of awesome racial features to wreck the world (and him) even more.