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View Full Version : [3.5] Zerth Cenobite; worth a shot?



Learnedguy
2009-06-04, 02:00 PM
Alright, so in my group's next campaign, I was thinking of playing a monk (don't hurt me!), and I was kind of looking for something nice to prc into, and came across the Zerth Cenobite from Complete Psionic.

So, how does the Zerth Cenobite measure up to other classes in the end? (And don't you dare take wizards into equation. Really, I want a fair comparison between a Monk/Cenobite and "balanced" classes, not completely borked ones.)

Also, what kind of tricks would supplement a monk/cenobite nicely?

sonofzeal
2009-06-04, 02:04 PM
This sounds like a job for Zeal's Tier System for PrCs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107618)!

If I remember correctly there's been some significant debate in the BG thread about that class. You may want to check it out, it's linked to from that first post, right at the top.

Adumbration
2009-06-04, 02:06 PM
I think it's worth the shot; at least it significantly improves the monk. It gives you extra actions, abilities, and limited spellcasting - or psionic abilities, should I say.

Doc Roc
2009-06-04, 02:08 PM
Gently put, maybe. But don't let that stop you.
I mean that in a non-sarcastic way.

Optimystik
2009-06-04, 02:37 PM
Alright, so in my group's next campaign, I was thinking of playing a monk (don't hurt me!), and I was kind of looking for something nice to prc into, and came across the Zerth Cenobite from Complete Psionic.

So, how does the Zerth Cenobite measure up to other classes in the end? (And don't you dare take wizards into equation. Really, I want a fair comparison between a Monk/Cenobite and "balanced" classes, not completely borked ones.)

Also, what kind of tricks would supplement a monk/cenobite nicely?

Flavorwise ZC looks awesome to me, but I can't dig up a handbook anywhere. I don't think anyone really gave it a shot. Since it gets its own manifesting (from the PW list) I think the easiest way to enter is Monk 6 with Wild Talent rather than dipping PsyWar.

T.G. Oskar
2009-06-04, 02:57 PM
Perhaps the best way to look that out is comparing it to it's closest competition, the Fist of Zuoken (Psionic Fist for all of you SRD watchers)

At first glance, the only difference between the two are:
--The entry requirement (Psionic Fists require Wild Talent, Zerth Cenobites require a psionic point reserve)
--The psionic powers themselves: Psionic Fists get up to level 5th Psychic Warrior powers and a decent amount of psionic points, plus about 10 psionic powers; Zerth Cenobite has access to only level 4 spells, a very limited amount of PP, and only 5 powers
--The class abilities: Psionic Fists get only bonus feats different from Zerth Cenobites; the latter has the time-related abilities different from the former. The two classes progress monk abilities exactly as proposed, though.

Zerth Cenobite was designed, however, for those races that already have Psionic Point reserves naturally; Psionic Fists/of Zuoken require you to have Wild Talent (which is pretty pointless as a feat if you're naturally psionic) Furthermore, Zerth Cenobite is really only geared towards the classes that actually skip Monk early, that have ridiculous Wisdom ranges, and that could probably survive as a full Monk. If anything, the best way to handle it would be playing a Gith, specifically a Githzerai (since you'd be using Inertial Armor from the psi-like abilities it has, then Force Screen from the powers you'll get)

If anything, aside from the flavor, play a ZC if you wish to have a last-ditch need to have time boosts (although in that case the Elocater does a bit better, as well as the Swiftblade), and have only flavor psionic abilities. Psionic Fists are generally much better because the psionic powers they get are generally stronger, and accessed faster; however, you'd have to waste a feat you'd recover only later if you progress further down the path.

Finally, as for the PrC Tier system: the debate isn't whether it is good or not (if I recall correctly), but rather if the Zerth Cenobite really enhances the character who gains access (since it's pretty much a monk exclusive because of Still Mind) Regardless of how actually effective it is, since the tiers consider mostly how much entering into one improves the character or the class it's meant to improve, it has a +1 to its rating. However, because of the limited amount of PP, powers, and the 1/day bunch of skills, it's being pushed to -1 because Psionic Fist works better in most ways. Again, that's what I recall from the thread.

Kyeudo
2009-06-04, 03:11 PM
Zerth Cenobites can be awesome, but only once per day. They lack any sort of staying power on all their fun tricks.

Optimystik
2009-06-04, 03:35 PM
Perhaps the best way to look that out is comparing it to it's closest competition, the Fist of Zuoken (Psionic Fist for all of you SRD watchers)

*snip*

Excellent analysis, T.G. It echoes what little I've been able to find elsewhere. Generally, PF is indeed the better choice for a mind-monk, while ZC does lean more toward naturally psionic races.

Now for the class features:

Temporal distillation: Extra move action, 1/day. Even with the upgrades (extra standard action @ 5th level, extra full round action @ 10th) this doesn't seem that impressive to me.

Backslip: Reroll anything, 1/day. Upgrades to 2/day at 6th level. Rerolls are always useful.

Timeless Step: Step (WIS modifier) rounds into the future. Essentially you wink out for X rounds and reappear in the same position (or as close to it as possible if the space is occupied.) Would be better as an immediate action; as it is, I don't see this being very useful unless the room is collapsing or something. Every round you spend in la-la land, the casters are in danger after all.

Precognition: +2 insight bonus to one attack roll, skill roll, ability check or saving throw per day. Upgrades to 2/day at 7th level. A lot of psionics give an insight bonus, which will NOT stack with this (e.g. Danger Sense). However, it is an immediate action, which makes it useful.

Temporal Strike: Swift action; you can make your unarmed strike cause the enemy to wink out for 10 rounds and reappear in the same position. This is the Zerth's defining ability; you can literally knock your foes into next week (assuming next week starts 10 rounds from now, at any rate :smallwink:). Sadly, it is only 1/day. Even worse, the enemy can make a will save each round to come back, so it's unlikely to last the entire 10 rounds as advertised. Taking a foe out of the fight with a single punch is handy though.

Precognitive Surge: Add (Monk level + ZC level) to any roll, 1/day or to AC for 1 attack (Max +25). Powerful ability, but it must be done before the roll in question (as opposed to Precognition, which can be applied after the roll). Nice way to guarantee your save or avoid that touch attack; Again, I'm not a fan of 1/day abilities, but this one isn't bad.

Timeless Body: 1/day, you can shift yourself into a static time stream as a standard action. You become immune to basically everything until your next turn. The standard action activation keeps this from greatness; as an immediate action it would be stupendous. Another strike is that it protects you from helpful effects as well as harmful ones; no healing and no buffs until you reenter the time stream.

For the so-called master of time, it doesn't have nearly enough immediate or swift actions. It's better than straight monk, but I'd rather have the 5th-level powers from Psionic Fist personally. The flavor is phenomenal though.

Leon
2009-06-05, 07:07 AM
Yes.
Anything is worth a shot if you like the look of it.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-06-05, 07:59 AM
I would personally take Psionic Fist over ZC, but mostly because I have a grappler build that I really want to try out. The higher number/level of powers known and over twice as many powerpoints available is better than a few 1/day abilities IMO. The only advantage ZC gets that I can see is that you don't need to waste a feat on Wild Talent for it, but if you can get your DM to let you substitute Warped Mind (LoM) or a racial powerpoint reserve to meet the prerequisites for Psionic Fist, I'd take that one every time. An even stronger choice than ZC is going Monk 6/ Psionic Fist 3/ Elocater 10, which actually works out quite well, especially if you use the cobra-strike monk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les) variant from UA.

Adumbration
2009-06-05, 08:06 AM
Timeless Body: 1/day, you can shift yourself into a static time stream as a standard action. You become immune to basically everything until your next turn. The standard action activation keeps this from greatness; as an immediate action it would be stupendous. Another strike is that it protects you from helpful effects as well as harmful ones; no healing and no buffs until you reenter the time stream.


Don't forget your 1/day extra full-round action. If you go completely nova, you can be actually pretty useful, once a day. (Timeless body --> move next to enemy ---> FULL-ATTACK! ---> take a FULL-ATTACK back from BBEG without any damage or effects. Don't forget to blow your other dailies too.)

Person_Man
2009-06-05, 08:54 AM
It's a poorly written class from a poorly written book. It grants:

Requires Still Mind (Monk) for entry
7/10 BAB
Strong Ref and Fort Saves
d8 hit points
4 Skill Points per level from a Monkish list
Slow psionic powers - tops out at 27 power points, 5 known powers, maximum 4th level.
A bunch of semi-useful abilities that you can use once or twice per day.

I would avoid it.

Optimystik
2009-06-05, 09:05 AM
Another substantial strike against the Cenobite is that Psionic Fist gets bonus feats and ZC doesn't. Even limited to core there are very useful psionic feats that can easily surpass the ZC's class features (most notably Expanded Knowledge, which can grab you powers from the Psion general or even Psion discipline class lists).


Don't forget your 1/day extra full-round action. If you go completely nova, you can be actually pretty useful, once a day. (Timeless body --> move next to enemy ---> FULL-ATTACK! ---> take a FULL-ATTACK back from BBEG without any damage or effects. Don't forget to blow your other dailies too.)

I must admit, being a one-trick pony can lead to unprecedented awesome when that trick goes off successfully :smallsmile: