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Dacia Brabant
2009-06-04, 02:12 PM
In the past I've tended to overlook Stone Dragon-related material since, with the exception of Mountain Hammer, there's not much in the discipline that tends to work with the characters I make and adventures I end up in. However, the other day I took a closer look at Unstoppable Onslaught in the Shards of Granite tactical feat and had an idea for combining it with Stormguard Warrior's Channeling the Storm in an AoO crackdown build.

Basically the trick is to provoke as many Attacks of Opportunity as I can (Combat Reflexes, Defensive Rebuke+Thicket of Blades--the build has Devoted Spirit access--and maybe Karmic Strike if I can fit the prerequisites in, as Robilar's Gambit is not an option at this point since it's a 10-level build). Then use Stone Power for -5 on the first one I'm offered, thus activating Unstoppable Onslaught for the following turn, but decline the rest in order to build up Channeling the Storm. Then on my turn unleash for big DR-ignoring damage with either a full attack or a strike like Ruby Nightmare Blade.

(Yeah I realize that this feat-intensive, and that I may as well use the Mountain Hammer line if I'm so worried about DR/hardness, and that Unstoppable Onslaught would probably synergize better off of Combat Rhythm anyway, I just thought it'd be a fun combo.)

The only thing is, I'm unsure whether Stone Power (needed to activate Shards of Granite) can be used as part of an Attack of Opportunity. The feat says an attack action, full attack action or a Stone Dragon strike is required, which would seem to mean it's only meant for when you're acting on your turn, but on the other hand anything that you can do with a single melee attack you can usually do with an AoO.


tl;dr: can Stone Power be used on a melee attack made as an AoO?

Goatman_Ted
2009-06-04, 02:19 PM
tl;dr: can Stone Power be used on a melee attack made as an AoO?
Like you say, it can be activated with an Attack Action.
That's the sort of action you make during Attacks of Opportunity.
So yes.

Duke of URL
2009-06-04, 02:21 PM
No. An attack action is a standard action. You cannot initiate any martial maneuvers when it is not your turn unless it has an initiation time of 1 immediate action.

Goatman_Ted
2009-06-04, 02:32 PM
No. An attack action is a standard action.

Nope.
An attack action is something like a Trip Attempt, disarm etc.
They are what you make during a standard action attack, full round attack or attack of opportunity.
When one of these is used, the Stone Power feat can be activated.

Duke of URL
2009-06-04, 02:45 PM
Nope.
An attack action is something like a Trip Attempt, disarm etc.
They are what you make during a standard action attack, full round attack or attack of opportunity.
When one of these is used, the Stone Power feat can be activated.

Partially incorrect. The SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#attack) specifically states that an attack is a standard action.


Making an attack is a standard action.

Now, what I messed up on was that I though Stone Power was a strike -- since it is a feat that triggers on an "attack", one could read the AoO rules to say that this is allowed:


An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack

The question comes to the wording of the feat (which I don't have handy). Does it simply require an attack, or does it require an attack action?

Douglas
2009-06-04, 02:46 PM
No, that's "an attack". The "attack action" is specifically making a single melee attack as a standard action. There is a difference.

Edit: The exact wording is "attack action", "full attack action", or stone dragon strike.

Duke of URL
2009-06-04, 02:50 PM
Edit: The exact wording is "attack action", "full attack action", or stone dragon strike.

Still fuzzy, then. If it was just attack, it'd be clear that the RAW and RAI meant for it to apply on AoOs... as an "attack action", it's less clear.

Dacia Brabant
2009-06-04, 03:04 PM
So "attack action" = the attack you make as a standard action then? I guess I can understand that, though wouldn't that also mean no using it during a Trip, Disarm or even Sunder (which is what Battering Smash, another Shards of Granite option, is designed for)? Or would that be okay since those also are standard actions that use an attack roll?

But then we come back to those being allowable on Attacks of Opportunity again.

Douglas
2009-06-04, 03:20 PM
"Attack action" = spend a standard action to make an attack. This can be a normal attack, or anything that can be done "as an attack" (or similar wording). Trip, disarm, sunder, and grapple are all valid options for any single "melee attack" regardless of the action used to make the attack, so Stone Power can be used with them provided you're spending an action instead of an AoO on it.

Fixer
2009-06-04, 03:24 PM
Stone Power requires it be triggered 'when you use an attack action or a full attack action'.

The hierarchy is this:
Standard Action
---Melee Attack (May use Stone Power)

Full Attack Action
---Melee Attack (May use Stone Power)
---Melee Attack (May use Stone Power)
---+Melee Attack (repeat) (May use Stone Power)

Attack of Opportunity
---Melee Attack (May NOT use Stone Power, because you aren't spending an action)


AoO are not attack actions, they are attacks of opportunity. You cannot use Stone Power as part of an AoO because they do not occur by you spending either a standard action or full attack action. You can only use Stone Power when you would make an attack action or full attack action (even if you don't actually attack anything, you only have to spend the action on it). This generally means only during your turn, which makes sense because the temp HP granted from Stone Power only lasts until the beginning of your next turn anyway.

Disarm, Trip, and Grapple all substitute for melee attacks, which mean that they can be used to trigger Stone Power IF they are being used during your normal turn (when you would be spending a standard action to attack or full round action to get iterative attacks).

lsfreak
2009-06-04, 03:25 PM
Attack: Any time you make an attack, including AoO's.
Special attack: Trip, disarm, sunder, etc. You can use any of these during an attack.
Attack action: Any time you take an action (standard or full-round, or maybe other in special cases) to make an attack. Possibly includes some counter maneuvers, but I don't think there's a ruling on that.

Douglas
2009-06-04, 03:33 PM
Possibly includes some counter maneuvers, but I don't think there's a ruling on that.
No, things like Rapid Counter are immediate actions that happen to include an attack as part of their effect. That does not make them count as the attack action, which is quite specifically a specific standard action that has a single attack as its entire effect.

Draz74
2009-06-04, 04:43 PM
the attack action, which is quite specifically a specific standard action that has a single attack as its entire effect.

Uh, if that were true, then you couldn't make Disarm or Trip attempts as part of a full attack.

Attack actions are not necessarily standard actions at all. One way to gain an attack action is to use a standard action. But a full attack, for example (a full-round action) gives you attack actions, too (how many depending on your BAB, as well as feats or abilities like TWF or Flurry of Blows).

I think Attacks of Opportunity count as attack actions, too. After all, you can use them to trip/disarm/initiate a grapple/etc. So I think you could use the Stone Power feat with an AoO.

You're right that most Counters aren't attack actions. Although ones that allow you to make an attack are, unless they rule that your attack has to be a specific kind of attack. Yes, they're immediate actions, but that doesn't mean they aren't also attack actions, just like a full attack is both a full-round action and a series of attack actions.

Douglas
2009-06-04, 04:52 PM
Uh, if that were true, then you couldn't make Disarm or Trip attempts as part of a full attack.
How so? Disarm is done "As a melee attack". Trip is "as an unarmed melee attack". Any melee attack, regardless of the action used to make it, can therefore be a disarm or trip.


Attack actions are not necessarily standard actions at all. One way to gain an attack action is to use a standard action. But a full attack, for example (a full-round action) gives you attack actions, too (how many depending on your BAB, as well as feats or abilities like TWF or Flurry of Blows).
A full attack does not give you multiple attack actions, it gives you multiple attacks. An attack is not the same thing as an attack action. The attack action (and "the" is the correct word to use there) is the standard action that gives you one attack.

Dacia Brabant
2009-06-04, 05:13 PM
Yeah it looks like the operative word here is "action" so if an AoO is not considered an action then I'm out of luck. Since the only action that you can take when it's not your turn is an immediate action, and since AoOs aren't treated as immediate actions, and finally since AoOs aren't listed as an action type anywhere that pretty much answers my question--although I don't think it would hurt anything to call it a special action that happens on someone else's turn.

Oh well, it's not like there aren't other ways to get mileage out of Stormguard Warrior.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-06-04, 05:29 PM
The phrase is "Whenever you use an attack action, which is different from, say, Improved Trip, which says you can do it as an attack, not an attack action.

I would rule that Stone Power can only be activated when it is your turn, and both the benefits and penalties of this feat last until it is your turn again. Just like Power Attack.

Really, there's no reason to NOT use Stone Power, just for the 10 temporary hit points every round. That's like 10 points of damage you ignore every round before any other considerations. Not too shabby.