Test of Spite [D&D 3.5]

[ex cathedra]

I understand completely, but I admit I'm a bit disappointed that everyone is using the same map, including me. Of course, it must be terrifically hard handling all of this with so few DMs.

[Saph]

Well, it's not a bad map for duels. Small enough to finish battles quickly, but with enough cover and maneuvering room to pull some tricks if you want. That was one of the reasons I picked it in the first place, though I didn't expect it to be quite so popular. :)

- Saph

[ex cathedra]

Of course; It's a fine map, if a bit constrictive. It's just the principle of the matter. It doesn't matter too much to me at the moment, however; I guess I'm just waiting to be whisked off to Sigil or into the dungeon (I'm not entirely sure which).

[Doc Roc]

Aether, please loot your opponent's body, and head to sigil to sell at the standard market turn around, or keep what you like. You may buy anything.

Consider Sigil to be Magi-mart.

I'm reworking the stair case map, with griding and such, so it should be usable soon by normal living hoomanz.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Umm...Tide? We started a new thread...I thought you knew....

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6381627#post6381627

Oh, and Tide? What happens if I double crit a minion? Like, roll a natural 20 on attacking, and confirm it with a natural 20?

[ex cathedra]

Thanks, Tide. I've spent my day in Sigil and changed my sheet accordingly. I can send it to you again if you need.

Nice crit, btw.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Thanks :smallbiggrin:

I had to keep blinking to convince myself that I actually did it...

[Doc Roc]

We don't use blender table rules, so nothing in particular occurs. Sorry.

I am aware that you restarted, but I'd like to be able to offer more map-related variety.

[Adumbration]

Any idea when the next stage of my test might begin? (No hurry, would just like to know approximately when.)

[Doc Roc]

Sometime soon but not until mid week. I have a fat stack of tests, so I'm busy trying to get my GPA above water. After that I'll codify the dungeon and find an unlucky person to help me with the GMing load.

[Adumbration]

Sometime soon but not until mid week. I have a fat stack of tests, so I'm busy trying to get my GPA above water. After that I'll codify the dungeon and find an unlucky person to help me with the GMing load.

Alright, that sounds good.

[Ratflail]

Tide, can we have more than one +1 LA, or is it a maximum of +1 overall?

Can we take Monster Classes? And if we can't, can we take the base statistics for the race without the monster class levels?

And lastly, when you Savage Species is "approved only", does that mean "If I see your build is too cheesy/overpowered, i'm going to disallow it", or "It's not getting in unless I'm in a good mood and it's completely balanced"?

[Doc Roc]

No, and no. Monster classes are very poorly designed almost to exclusion, ranging from hideously broken to way underpowered.

The issue with savage species is that it is functionally a book about doing bizarre things. This is fine for table-games, but a huge problem when you have people like me around. I'm going to be pretty tough on material from SS cause a lot of it has no reasonable counterbalance.

[ex cathedra]

I didn't want to interrupt Olo and Yahzi's match, but I think that ruling is illogical; White Raven Tactics targets one ally within 10 ft, which includes you, and does not specify that it must be another ally. Just thought I'd share my thoughts on the matter.

[Olo Demonsbane]

The sage ruling said otherwise...

Oh, and I am dead. His Huge skeletons killed me.



Ok, who wants to face my other character? Much more versatlile, and much more fun, though there are less looks of horror.

[ex cathedra]

I recall reading a CustServ answer that stated that you could use it on yourself, though. Not to mention that, RAW, you are a valid target.

[Yahzi]

Well, I've never seen White Raven Tactics before, so I Googled it and the first hit I found was The Sage saying it didn't work like that. It does seem a bit ridiculous that a maneuver could give you 2 full rounds before your opponents get to react.

If you read the thread, you will see that if Olo could have had a 2nd turn, he would have destroyed 3 giants. He only lost because he got really unlucky on the first turn and actually - gasp! - missed on his attacks.

In other words, D&D at level 13 = roll for initiative. :smallmad:

Since Olo died halfway through my round, I didn't even cast a single spell. My character has just had a 6 second encounter that expended zero of his resources.

Thus... I am ready for the next pretender contender.

Or I could rest the night and redo my spell list. I had memorized all kinds of useful spells for dungeoneering, but I'm not sure those are actually useful here. I guess it's up to Tide.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Well, I've never seen White Raven Tactics before, so I Googled it and the first hit I found was The Sage saying it didn't work like that. It does seem a bit ridiculous that a maneuver could give you 2 full rounds before your opponents get to react.Sage is wrong. WRT moves an ally to immediately after your initiative. According to the PHB glossary, you are your own ally. Therefore, you can allow yourself to act immediately after yourself. All of the White Raven maneuvers affect you as well. The maneuver is fairly overpowered for it's level, but that's because of the scaling power of a turn, not because you can use it on yourself. If anything, it's worse if you use it on an ally. Free turn for the casters? YES PLZ!

[Olo Demonsbane]

It was a very good fight, albeit a short one. Gatlin was an all-or-nothing character that was designed to fight a grounded rouge, spellcaster, or fighter, not a massive amount of Huge skeletons.

He had 10 AC after a charge attack.

[ex cathedra]

Tidesinger mentions WRT in the rules, as well. However, we can't draw entirely accurate conclusions from
White Raven Tactics may be used precisely once a battle.

It's a 1v1/2v2 arena game; if you couldn't use it on yourself, I don't think it would be specifically disallowed from being used multiple times. Regardless of my opinion, I guess you should either accept the alternate outcome or wait for Tide. I just don't like seeing the battle drastically change because of an unreliable ruling.

[Olo Demonsbane]

If Yahzi wants to let me kill 3 of his skeles, I dont mind. He still would have killed me with his other guys, if we switch the rolls around.

I was half ready to play my other character anyway...

Thanks for helping though.

[Doc Roc]

Yes, you can use WRT on yourself. I'm something of a literalist, and I tend to feel the sage is a god damn madman about half the time, so.....

[imperialspectre]

Considering that he's been known to stealth nerf things in a manner completely inconsistent with RAW, "forget" that we changed editions in 200-freaking-3, and generally serve as a representative of his own houserules, not what's actually in the books or legitimate errata...

I'd say that appraisal is about accurate. :smalltongue:

[Yahzi]

If Yahzi wants to let me kill 3 of his skeles, I dont mind. He still would have killed me with his other guys, if we switch the rolls around.
It's easy enough to see. Make a DC 21 Will save. If you succeed, you shrug off the DoomTide and insta-kill me. If you fail, then you are Dazed and I get 2 rds of attacks from one giant and 10D6 damage, which ought to be enough to bring you down.

At this level, it's all about the save-or-die. :smallmad:

[Pharaoh's Fist]

That doesn't work outside of the roleplaying forums.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Do the crazy bowling-pin charge! (Punctoation and Captilization added)

I got a 19.

Good game, again :smalltongue:

Gatlin is a low level build that I have with a lot of Tome of Battle added on the end. He was not really designed for this kind of combat...At level 7, his crazy bowling-pin charge worked exactly the same, only with 2 attacks.

I am now looking for someone to face my other character...anyone open?

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Is it too late for me to join?

[Olo Demonsbane]

No. Not at all. You can even face me!

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Sure I'll face you, just let me make my character first.

stay out, Hp rolls
testing 1d4+1

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Sure I'll face you, just let me make my character first.

stay out, Hp rolls
testing 1d4+1 Rolling only works in the PBP forums. There's a couple threads just for generic rolls, though.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

oh ok thanks

[Olo Demonsbane]

And I thought we were just using average rolls for HP...could be totally wrong of course...

[Pharaoh's Fist]

And I thought we were just using average rolls for HP...could be totally wrong of course...

I think we are.

[Doc Roc]

I will always permit players to screw themselves with random rolled HP, and I always allow D4 classes to random roll. :)

[Yahzi]

I got a 19.
You're not dead yet... check out my crappy attack rolls!



HPs
Ya, I just used average HPs for my minions, and Max (for first level) + average for my character.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Woot! I'm finally done making my guy
what do I do now?

[ex cathedra]

Find someone else with a character, find a map and perhaps a DM, and begin?

[Olo Demonsbane]

Ok...do you want to make the thread or should I? We dont really need a DM, if we have any questions, we can PM Tidesinger.

I have 6 hp and less than a 1/400 chance of surviving the next round vs Yahzi, and plan on surrendering to him anyway.

[Yahzi]

Woot! I'm finally done making my guy
what do I do now?
First you email your char sheet to Tidesinger.

Then you wait for Tidesinger to DM a match.

Or I can create a thread and fight you with my character. If you we go now, I will assume I haven't had time to identify any of the loot off of Olo's body. Since I haven't used any spells or taken any damage, this means our fight will be perfectly fair. (Ignore the alternate history where Olo's character is still fighting :smallbiggrin: )

However, I am going to insist on a map that allows for my character to actually operate.



The Arena
300 ft long, and 100 ft wide, the Arena is floored with plain, ordinary sand. The contestants may set up anywhere behind their 10 yard line (that is, within 6 squares of their end of the map). There is a 20 ft. wide gate post at each end of the map (in the center); if a contestant touches the opponent's gate post for 10 consecutive rounds, he wins by default. (This must be the contestant, not one of his minions!). As soon as the contestants enter the field, giant walls of Force surround the battlefield, extending up 100 ft to a ceiling of Force and down 20 ft under the ground for a floor of Force.

Lighting is normal: the walls of Force are transparent, so the various extra-planar beings can watch from their seats in the arena.

Coordinates are measured from the west/south side: 5:10 means the fifth square west (left) side and the 10th square from the south (bottom) side. There are 20 squares from left to right, and 60 from top to bottom. Just indicate whether you want the north side (set up from 1:54 to 20:60) or the south side (set up from 1:1 to 20:6).


If this is acceptable to you, let me know. :smallsmile:

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Yahzi:
sure let's go unless we can find a 4th

[Olo Demonsbane]

Yahzi: Right after a fight, you get teleported to Sigil. Sorry, cant fight multiple people :smalltongue:

I have another character though...I had dibs on fighting first!

[Saph]

Yahzi - doesn't a huge flat plain give your character an enormous advantage, since it lets all your minions attack at once?

I definitely wouldn't agree to fight an army under those conditions, but I guess it's up to your opponent . . .

- Saph

[Olo Demonsbane]

I dont reccommend the winning posts....Greater Invisibility anyone?

[lvl 1 sharnian]

minions...?

itll be alright... how about 5' wide?:)

btw... would having several identical brothers who all adventured and trained together allow me extra lives with my character?

[Olo Demonsbane]

Some of his minions are 15ft wide.

And, once again...he is getting sent to Sigil. He cant fight.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Ok then, how about your other character?

[ex cathedra]

... which reminds me, Tide; When can I get dungeoned away?

[Olo Demonsbane]

Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6395467#post6395467).

Oh, and sorry, Saph, for continuing to use your map. It is simple enough to use, and it is more interesting than a featureless plane.

[Doc Roc]

I'm really sorry I've been so delinquent regarding my GMing duties, school has just been kicking my butt.

[ex cathedra]

Oh, don't worry about it; I know the feeling. We had finals a few months back, though...

Not to mention that you're terribly under-staffed. I could help adjudicate some of the 1v1s or 2v2s for you, if you'd like. Help with LoS checks, etc.

[Olo Demonsbane]

I know the feeling...I could barely get through a single Test of Might during the school year, compared to me going through two Test of Spites and a Test of Might simaltaneously right now :smalltongue:

Its fine, man, school should come first.

[Yahzi]

Ok, give me a few to get it set up.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Yahzi, check the thread and check your PMs. You cant fight multiple people with the same character, you get immediately whisked off to Sigil as you are looting the body.

[Doc Roc]

I'd be delighted to have the help, Ae. Water Penguin really wanted to GM a match or two as well, if anyone needs a GM, they should ask him.

I'll be blunt, Yahzi, that character is going to have some serious trouble in the actual dungeon, as it's basically loaded with tight spaces. I can start you in a different segment, so if you're fond of him, we can do this no problem.


I'll be up and running at full GM-fu on july 8th. Until then, I'm going to have to really slack off regarding this. I can adjudicate special stuff, and run the entrance to the dungeon, since I have that plotted out, but that's about it. Also, the file hosting I use just crashed and burned.

:S

As for dungeon entrance, pick one of the other winners you're comfortable working with, and I'll roll you an entrance instance, Ae.

[ex cathedra]

Er, what players are available? I haven't kept up with every match.

Also, that sounds terrible. What were you using the hosting for? Anything mission-critical?

[Doc Roc]

Nothing mission critical. I keep most of my stuff in four or five locations. This was basically just a couple of forum avatars and some other images. I can rehost them, but that's a hassle that'll have to wait.

:)
I haven't exactly kept up with every match either. :)

After this is all over, I'm going to open source the dungeon module, so that we can all take a whack at running it. I've got the first tenth or so done and ready so far.

[ex cathedra]

I see. Well, at least it's not as bad as it could have been, in that case.

Edit: You're one of those people with the infuriating habit of editing your posts directly after you post them, aren't you? :smallwink:

Edit II: Multiple times, it seems.

[Olo Demonsbane]

AE: Look at the first page. That includes 3 of the winners, and just check the last 3 pages or so for other winners.

[ex cathedra]

Also, you should probably add Olo vs. lvl 1 sharnian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116717) and Ratflail vs. me (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116261) to the second third post.

[Doc Roc]

Seems that they fixed the broken hardware without data loss! very exciting.

[ex cathedra]

Excellent. I'm seeing anyone aside from Yahzi who has won and still seems active, but the minions make me uncomfortable. Also, I think they could kill me. Hm... I think I'll go check their AB again...

[Olo Demonsbane]

If you dont find someone reasonably quickly Ae, and I win reasonably quickly, Id be more than happy to have someone to go with.

I just got off 6 arrows to his face...:smallbiggrin:

[Yahzi]

Yahzi - doesn't a huge flat plain give your character an enormous advantage, since it lets all your minions attack at once?

I definitely wouldn't agree to fight an army under those conditions, but I guess it's up to your opponent . . .

- Saph
No more than a small field gives a Pounce Shocktrooper Charger an enormous advantage, since it lets him charge you on round 1.

If you put two 13th level characters in a small room, then the combat is just a matter of rolling initiative.

If somebody wants to add some features to the arena, sure, that's fine. But the first 3 maps I was offered were:

- a caravel,
- a room so small I could not line my giants up in it, let alone the rest of my party,
- a keep with 5 ft. wide hallways.

As it was, Olo got first charge, meaning I only won because he rolled a natural 1 on his first attack.

[Olo Demonsbane]

And a 2 and 3 on my other attacks that round.

Speaking of which....do you want to loot my character? You can sell anything you dont want.

[Yahzi]

enormous advantage
No more than a small field gives a Pounce Shocktrooper Charger an enormous advantage, since it lets him charge you on round 1.

If you put two 13th level characters in a small room, then the combat is just a matter of rolling initiative.

If somebody wants to add some features to the arena, sure, that's fine. But the first 3 maps I was offered were:

- a caravel,
- a room so small I could not line my giants up in it, let alone the rest of my party,
- a keep with 5 ft. wide hallways.

As it was, Olo got first charge, meaning I only won because he rolled a natural 1 on his first attack.[/QUOTE]



but the minions make me uncomfortable
If it makes you feel any better, I spent the vast bulk of my WBL on them.

The interesting point is that I defeated Olo with a 3rd level core spell, two feats from Libris Mortis, and preparation.


Really, we should be rolling up entire fortresses, with minions and armies, because that's how 13th level heroes roll.

[ex cathedra]

Don't misunderstand; I don't have a problem with the minions, it's just that evil necromancers have a habit of, y'know, being evil and necromancers. Which are scary. I don't trust you not to kill me, you see.

[Olo Demonsbane]

I beat level 1 sharnian!

Still looking for an adventuring partner aethernox?

...Stupid 60 second rule...

[Olo Demonsbane]

The interesting point is that I defeated Olo with a 3rd level core spell, two feats from Libris Mortis, and preparation

What are they skeletons of? And the level three spell? Animate Dead of course :smallbiggrin:. Can you PM me where that other spell you used on me is from? I like it a lot.

[ex cathedra]

That was... an odd match.

I suppose so. I'm not quite as afraid of you. :smallwink: I need to secretly revise something on my character, though.. I made the most horrid oversight.

[Olo Demonsbane]

I get to go shopping first though :smallbiggrin:

Will be finished in a few minutes.

[ex cathedra]

Terrific. There was one 375 gp item that I can't believe I didn't buy. So, I did.

[Doc Roc]

No more than a small field gives a Pounce Shocktrooper Charger an enormous advantage, since it lets him charge you on round 1.

If you put two 13th level characters in a small room, then the combat is just a matter of rolling initiative.

If somebody wants to add some features to the arena, sure, that's fine. But the first 3 maps I was offered were:

- a caravel,
- a room so small I could not line my giants up in it, let alone the rest of my party,
- a keep with 5 ft. wide hallways.

As it was, Olo got first charge, meaning I only won because he rolled a natural 1 on his first attack.

Don't forget the nightmarishly complicated map made of staircases :)
Almost got that darn thing fixed up so that it's playable, by the way.

Map so far:

http://h1.ripway.com/DrRocktopus/Map2.png

Peach?

[imperialspectre]

I'm still looking for an opponent.

Tide: The map looks good. Might be a bit complicated for a 1v1, especially for any characters who were at all stealth-based.

[ex cathedra]

That map is terrifying.

[Yahzi]

What are they skeletons of? And the level three spell? Animate Dead of course :smallbiggrin:. Can you PM me where that other spell you used on me is from? I like it a lot.
I sent you my char sheet, Olo. That should tell you what they are. I paid 1,000 gp per HD for those corpses, btw.

I think the spell you mean is DoomTide, from Complete Divine, one of the few splatbooks I own.

[Doc Roc]

Alternatively:

http://h1.ripway.com/DrRocktopus/Map3.png

Cropped it down again, cut a lot of the complicated features. The doorways basically lead to each other at random.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Ae: you should have tried playing on it before editing :smalleek:

Tide: Looks better, a lot better.

Yahzi: Huh, I didnt get it...

It does not feel quite as good beating someone if afterwards you see there build is called "Test Build" :smalltongue:

Allright, finished shopping.

[Yahzi]

And a 2 and 3 on my other attacks that round.

Speaking of which....do you want to loot my character? You can sell anything you dont want.
I'd love too... but my email is broken right now. Stupid cable company.

I don't know what Tide's rules on identifying loot are. I do have the Identify spell, but I don't know how much downtime I have in Ravenloft.

Do you just send me a list of your stuff? Because I am sure I could use it all - my character owns a total of 3 magic items... one of which is an Everburning Torch. :smallbiggrin:

[ex cathedra]

Cool. Tide, do you think you could instance us?

[Doc Roc]

You get 24 hours in sigil. Identification is considered a non-issue. So far no one's gone so far as to carry any -2 swords, so you'll be fine. :)

[Olo Demonsbane]

Yahzi: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=131192

You will have to get your giants to carry my stuff though: My hammer alone weighs 96 pounds :smallbiggrin:

Aethernox/Tide: Ready when you are!

[Doc Roc]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6396497#post6396497
Here's your instance. I'll first post it, but I'm afraid I'm headed to bed now....

[Yahzi]

You will have to get your giants to carry my stuff though: My hammer alone weighs 96 pounds
Your hammer weighs more than my character...

I can't use your weapons or armor - they are Large. Unless I drink the Potion of Enlarge Person, and then spend all of the time getting into the armor. :smallbiggrin:

I don't know what Strongarm Bracers are, or what they do. Or a Healing Belt, for that matter.

24 hours is only enough time to unraise one of my giants, so that means I only have 2 giants left. I guess I'll have to try to memorize different spells, or hope that the next character I fight is wounded or weakened by their encounter.

[Olo Demonsbane]

My weapons are Huge, perfect size for your giants :smallsmile:

Strongarm Bracers let you wield a weapon 1 size catagory larger.

A healing belt lets you heal yourself...it has 3 charges a day...you can use 1 charge to heal yourself 2d8, 2 charges to heal yourself 3d8, or 3 charges to heal yourself 4d8, IIRC.

You can use my shield...its animated.

Anything you dont want can be sold at Sigil.

[ex cathedra]

Animated shields still incur penalties for non-proficiency.

Also, I don't see what a black desert demiplane has to do with a dungeon. [/grumble, whine]

[Yahzi]

Animated shields still incur penalties for non-proficiency.
My cloistered cleric actually took Shield proficiency. :smalltongue:


Also, I don't see what a black desert demiplane has to do with a dungeon. [/grumble, whine]
Our first map was a ship. I'm not sure "dungeon" is the best description for this series of combats.



Anything you dont want can be sold at Sigil.
I'm not familiar with Ravenloft. Can I have your Large-sized armor retrofitted to Medium? Can I buy other magic items, and how much can I get for my your old ones?

I'm not sure I can equip a skeleton with a hammer - that's a DM ruling, I think.

In any case, my character is pretty weakened by the loss of his 2 pets, so I'll probably lose the next one. I should have put my giants 15 ft from each other. Saph was wrong - the large map doesn't help me because my creatures can all attack at once: it helps me because it means my creatures can't be all instagibbed on round one.

Just curious - have any other fights resulted in more than 1 turn? (Ultimately ours lasted 3 turns, but only because Olo was dazed for 2 of them)

[ex cathedra]

Sigil is actually Planescape, but it didn't get a lot of love in official 3.5. It's a city that is connected to virtually every plane by way of hidden portals. Gods are either barred from traveling there or are simply afraid to, iirc. It's not uncommon to see humans, gith, and devils walking on the streets, in some instances. You should be able to find anything you need.

My battle with Saph lasted over two minutes, though only a minute or so of it was actual combat.

[Sallera]

My fight with Talic took about 9 minutes, and we didn't even kill each other. <<;;

[Ratflail]

Just curious - have any other fights resulted in more than 1 turn? (Ultimately ours lasted 3 turns, but only because Olo was dazed for 2 of them)
My fight with Adumbration actually lasted a fair while. Charging, retreating, summoning Ghouls in the 1 to 3.75% chance that they would paralyse him.

[Olo Demonsbane]

My fight with level 1 sharnian lasted 3 rounds, but the first round was buffing for me, and I got unlucky with concealment :smallfrown:

EDIT: The main reason our fight went quickly was the fact that I was a high damage dealer (Crazy bowling rush attack!) and had very little AC. My current character would probably take a couple minutes to take your skelles down, but would end up surviving the thing :smalltongue:

[Olo Demonsbane]

Our first map was a ship. I'm not sure "dungeon" is the best description for this series of combats.

No, we just got "Black Misted". We thought this would send us to ravenloft...but apparently not.


I'm not sure I can equip a skeleton with a hammer - that's a DM ruling, I think.

I think you can...arent they often equiped with the weapons they died wielding?

[Talic]

No, we just got "Black Misted". We thought this would send us to ravenloft...but apparently not.



I think you can...arent they often equiped with the weapons they died wielding?

Creatures are considered proficient in any weapon listed in their stat block. In addition, entry parts of skeletons that are relevant:

Attacks

A skeleton retains all the natural weapons, manufactured weapon attacks, and weapon proficiencies of the base creature, except for attacks that can’t work without flesh. A creature with hands gains one claw attack per hand; the skeleton can strike with each of its claw attacks at its full attack bonus. A skeleton’s base attack bonus is equal to ½ its Hit Dice. [/b]

So it retains the same ability to use weapons that the base did.

[quote]Hit Dice

Drop any Hit Dice gained from class levels (to a minimum of 1) and raise remaining Hit Dice to d12s. If the creature has more than 20 Hit Dice, it can’t be made into a skeleton by the animate dead spell.

If the creature had racial HD, it loses all classes. If it had no racial HD, it keeps 1 HD from class only, and would retain non-feat proficiency with weapons.


Feats

A skeleton loses all feats of the base creature and gains Improved Initiative.It loses weapon proficiency feats? Let's consider the earlier text to be some form of Natural ability to remain proficient without the feats. Hm.

Bottom line? A level 1 human (or other 0 Racial HD race) fighter skeleton or warrior skeleton is able to wield any simple or martial weapon without penalty.

[waterpenguin43]

I took Yahzis advice: I am going to try for bigger maps. I have one rather large map, not so much for hallway width, but in total it is quite large. Yahzi declined it because the hallways were only 5 feet wide but there are plenty of places that are NOT hallways. If anyone is willing to let me GM them, tell me somehow, you probably won't want to though...
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ElderEvils_Maps/111223.jpg

[Yahzi]

I took Yahzis advice: I am going to try for bigger maps.
It's a nice map... but it is too small. As soon as the characters enter the same room, it's initiative roll time. And then the fight is over.

To be honest, my Arena isn't quite big enough, either, but I suppose a football field will have to do.

I cannot imagine how any of these fights can go for minutes. I would love to fight some these characters. If anyone is interested in a practice duel - my original character (with all his skeletons and without Olo's loot), let me know. We don't need a DM for that.


So it retains the same ability to use weapons that the base did.
Storm Giants use greatswords. So I take that to mean no hammers.



but would end up surviving the thing
That sounds like a challenge... :smallbiggrin:

[Olo Demonsbane]

•Proficient with all simple and martial weapons, as well as any natural weapons....wait, sorry, its exotic. Nevermind :smallredface:

I'd love to do more, but I already have a character going through.

I freakin love making characters, and this is just beyond the reach of where my campaigns usually reach (Olo Demonsbane himself reached 13 level, but then he realized he could kill all the gods as a swift action...please, dont ask).

If its fine with Tide, I could face anyone who wanted to go but didnt have a partner...I'd also like a rematch, Yahzi :smallbiggrin:, different character though. I already have two 13 level builds in my head since making Sayna two days ago...

[Yahzi]

I'd also like a rematch, Yahzi
I'll play you, just for fun. Bring out that gish you think can survive against my giants... Start a thread, and we'll do it just like we did last time.

I changed 4 or 5 spells around, but otherwise my char is the same. We need to use the Arena, though. I would actually like to see my opponent before the fight is over.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Is it ok if I keep the items that I won? You can too...I am also playing this character in the real thing right now, and dont want to have to mess around with it.

And what do you mean by "The Arena"

[Yahzi]

Is it ok if I keep the items that I won? You can too...I am also playing this character in the real thing right now, and dont want to have to mess around with it.

Well, I didn't win. I lost 2 giants, which basically cripples my character.

I wanted to see if your gish could actually survive for more than a few rounds.


And what do you mean by "The Arena"
I described it earlier - basically, a football field (100 x 300 ft) encased in a wall of force 100 ft high. If you touch the other guy's goal post for 10 rounds in a row, you win. Set up anywhere behind your 10 yard line (first 6 squares).

[Olo Demonsbane]

What I meant was that you won Gatlin's equipment, which you could of then sold at Sigil. EDIT: You get all of your skelletons.

Another Olo vs Yahzi Test of Spite....this time, its personal! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6402508#post6402508)

[Saph]

I cannot imagine how any of these fights can go for minutes. I would love to fight some these characters. If anyone is interested in a practice duel - my original character (with all his skeletons and without Olo's loot), let me know.

Short answer is 'cover'. Tactical movement, rather than charging toe to toe.

Anyway, I'd be interested, but there's no way my character's fighting a match on a football field. :) I mean, it's just silly. What's he doing in such a giant featureless flat space? Baseball practice?

- Saph

[Talic]

How can a fight last for minutes? +50 hide modifier and Hide in Plain Sight?

[ex cathedra]

Psionic Time Hop. See you 15 rounds in the future! Sadly, Saph didn't move as I had hoped. Double moves, taking cover and breaking LoS, healing. The list goes on.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Huh... I can't believe I left such a huge gap in vision..

2 questions:
Does True Seeing see through Darkness?
How does everyone get their Initiative mods so high?

Maybe I'll try a save or die build

[Sir Giacomo]

Tank monk for the monkening special dungeon core challenge is up.:smallsmile:

Now there are only the rogue (mostlyharmful?) and the druid (stoopidtallkid) missing.

- Giacomo

[Yahzi]

Short answer is 'cover'. Tactical movement, rather than charging toe to toe.
Cover I understand. My second match with Olo was basically, "Make an impossible spot check" - for both sides. But tactical movement? Olo started round 1 on my side of the map and invisible. If he had known where my character was, I would have died in round 1. There is no such thing as tactical movement. There is being seen/insta-gibbed or not being seen.

(I may have defeated Olo - it depends on his AC and remaining hps.)


What's he doing in such a giant featureless flat space? Baseball practice?
Actually, the Arena isn't quite big enough. I can't prevent half my forces from being insta-gibbed on round 1.

But if you suggest a map my character can actually fit on, I'll be happy to give it a try. I really want to know how a fight that does not involve Hide in Plain Sight can go more than a few rounds.




2 questions:
Does True Seeing see through Darkness?
How does everyone get their Initiative mods so high?

1. No.
2. I have no idea. I used Core and a few spells from Complete Divine and Libris Mortis. My character is a single class - Cloistered Cleric, because Tide wouldn't allow real clerics. I have no idea how to build all these crazy builds that people use.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Huh... I can't believe I left such a huge gap in vision..

My first character couldnt even fly, and sucked at melee weapons. Everyone has their gaps...


Does True Seeing see through Darkness?

I dont think so...


How does everyone get their Initiative mods so high?

My character has high dexterity and Nerveskitter, a spell that give +6 to Initiative.


Maybe I'll try a save or die build

Fun fun fun :smallwink:

[ex cathedra]

Nerveskitter is +5, I believe. I use it as well.

I used... PHB, PHB II, MM IV, Complete Arcane, Unearthed Arcana, Complete Mage, DMG, Magic Item Compendium, Spell Compendium, wizards.com, Races of the Wild, and Races of the Dragon. Oh, and Book of Exalted Deeds. Nothing else really comes to mind.

I'm fairly happy though there's one or two aspects of it I need to remedy.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

The Monkening needs a skillmonkey, and possibly a druid if Sstoopidtallkid doesn't show.

[Olo Demonsbane]

For Sayna?

Crystalkeep.com, wizards.com, oneotherwebsitethatIdontrecall.com, Complete Adventurer, forums.gleemax (I used a couple of things from one of the guides), Complete Mage, Core, Complete Scoundrel, Tome of Battle, Spell Compendium, Unearthed Arcana.

This is actually a rather small list compared to some of my characters...

[waterpenguin43]

[QUOTE=Yahzi;6402012]It's a nice map... but it is too small. As soon as the characters enter the same room, it's initiative roll time. And then the fight is over.

My personal thought was that it would create a tricky issue if people had spells like Wall of force prepared. I wanted to experiment with sneaking up on people from another passage. Also dimension door would have made the fight last a LONG time. And if a fight can last nine minutes in a rather plain and small cave, immagine here.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ElderEvils_Maps/111223.jpg

[Pharaoh's Fist]

The Monkening needs a skillmonkey, and possibly a druid if Sstoopidtallkid doesn't show.

We have the skillmonkey, now lacking a druid.

[waterpenguin43]

Also, I guess I'll challenge someone for a 1v1 anyway (it won't count) as soon as I have my character made and someone wants to go against me.

[imperialspectre]

Well, I was hoping to have a 1v1, but I was also hoping for it to count.

[waterpenguin43]

Well, I was hoping to have a 1v1, but I was also hoping for it to count.

Well if Tide wants it to count, sure. But if I win I don't think I will be allowed to go any farther.

[Doc Roc]

I dont think so...


It does as far as I know.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Is there a limit to how much gp I spend on a single item

[Doc Roc]

No. Those limits nerf classes that don't need nerfing.

[ex cathedra]

Uh, True Seeing confers darkvision, magical darkvision, ignores blur/displacement, confers detect secret doors, ignores invisibility, sees through illusions, sees the true form of polymorphed creatures and objects, and allows sight onto the ethereal plane.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Does the restriction on gated creatures being unable to leave also affect summons?

[Doc Roc]

:)
Only in the dungeon.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Do you realize that I am now playing a Druid without summoning and without Wildshape, in a test to see how broken the Druid is?

Can I at least swap out Spontaneous Summoning for the PHBII version, Spontaneous Rejuvenation, so I don't need to prep cure spells(not that I planned to anyways)?

[Doc Roc]

Let me clarify, I meant planar bind\ally.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Also, I guess I'll challenge someone for a 1v1 anyway (it won't count) as soon as I have my character made and someone wants to go against me.

I cant go any farther, and I have a character that I am making...want to face me?

[Yahzi]

Uh, True Seeing confers darkvision, magical darkvision, ignores blur/displacement, confers detect secret doors, ignores invisibility, sees through illusions, sees the true form of polymorphed creatures and objects, and allows sight onto the ethereal plane.
Doh!

So it does...

I would have won that fight with Olo if I had just cast True Seeing on one of my Giants... :smallbiggrin:

For the next fight I am gonna memorize more than one copy of the spell.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Glad you didnt....that was close enough as it was!

[Melamoto]

Ok, my game has come to a COMPLETE standstill. It's been 3+ days since anyone has posted. I'll face someone 1v1 that wants to have a quick fight. (With my character, it will be quick, regardless of who wins).

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Two more questions..

Specifically, if I buy a Greater Prayer Beads and use the bead of summons to summon a Solar to unleash a can of whoopass on the opponent, is it unable to leave and becomes angry with me and kill me later?

Is Derro a playable race? If not, can someone recommend another LA +0 non humanoid race? Monstrous humanoid is fine. Preferably medium sized or larger

[waterpenguin43]

I cant go any farther, and I have a character that I am making...want to face me?

Sure, when I'm done making mine.

[Melamoto]

Sure, when I'm done making mine.
After that, one of you against me?
A 3 way might be quite fun, but would probably be too hard to run to be worth it, and certain characters would have an advantage.

[waterpenguin43]

After that, one of you against me?
A 3 way might be quite fun, but would probably be too hard to run to be worth it, and certain characters would have an advantage.

If ou want to have a three-way fight, sure. I am pretty much fine with everything and it will be fun to utterly destroy both of you if I can. I'll start the thread now.

[Melamoto]

Ok then, I guess this a 3 way between
Melamoto
Olo Demonsbane
and Waterpenguin43.

If Olo is ok with this, then I guess it's a battle.

Battle Link: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117052

[ex cathedra]

can someone recommend another LA +0 non humanoid race? Monstrous humanoid is fine. Preferably medium sized or larger

I believe that Elans (XPH) are Abberations, that the Otherworldly feat (PGtF?) turns you elf into an outsider (with special requirements), and there are a few others that aren't coming to me right now.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

2nd Character done. Anybody want to battle?

[Frogwarrior]

Hm, this sounds like fun. How much starting gold do we get, though?

[Olo Demonsbane]

Standard WBL for 13th level...110k IIRC.

[imperialspectre]

Melamoto: I have a finished character. I'll take you on whenever.

Edit: Or, you know, Sharnian. I challenge both of you, but not at once.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Sure let's go. Do you want to start thread or do you want me to?

[Yahzi]

I'll go again, if anybody wants. Olo and I are 1 and 1.

Has anybody heard from Tidesinger, or any of the other original contestants?

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Alright me and you Yahzi

[Saph]

Tidesinger's around, but overloaded, so the dungeon explorations are currently stalled. He's said he'll hand off the running of the entry stages of the dungeon to some other DMs as soon as he finishes writing it up.

I've made another character to try out, though it'll probably be a while before I can get it approved. It'd be fun to see if I could get the build to work, though.

- Saph

[lvl 1 sharnian]

So who do we send the sheets into in the meantime? I've got an issue over whether a elf monk's unarmed strike qualifies as a natural weapon for a prestige class I have

[ex cathedra]

I would suggest you just wait for Tide to be less busy. He's got a lot on his hands.

IUS does effectively make fists, etc., natural weapons, I'm not sure if they do so for the purposes of qualifications.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

So who do we send the sheets into in the meantime? I've got an issue over whether a elf monk's unarmed strike qualifies as a natural weapon for a prestige class I have

"A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

RAW no, but I'm sure Tidesinger will rule that it does.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

alright thanks

btw what does RAW stand for?

[ex cathedra]

"Rules as Written", or the literal interpretation of the rules. Often conflicts with RAI, or "Rules as Intended."

[mostlyharmful]

"Rules as Written", or the literal interpretation of the rules. Often conflicts with RAI, or "Rules as Intended."

Not to be confused with Rules As Workable or Rules As Sane or even Rules As Coherent:smallwink:

Incidentally, any word on when this Monk test might get spinning? I've got my skillmonkey ironed out and I just hope it doesn't disappear into the ether.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Not to be confused with Rules As Workable or Rules As Sane or even Rules As Coherent:smallwink:

Incidentally, any word on when this Monk test might get spinning? I've got my skillmonkey ironed out and I just hope it doesn't disappear into the ether.

Go here: The Monkening (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116095)

[ex cathedra]

Out of curiosity, is the Feral template allowed?

[9mm]

got bored, threw together a guy to be an opponent or partner. Don't care which really.

[Saph]

Well, I've got a new character I'd like to try out, if anyone wants a duel. Haven't had the chance to send it to Tidesinger yet, but dungeon's currently on hold and I'm bored, so a battle would be fun.

- Saph

[imperialspectre]

Saph, want to run a battle in the Test of Might merfolk map? (Without water, of course).

[Saph]

Sure, could be fun.

- Saph

[imperialspectre]

I have yet to figure out the code thing here, so I'm actually not sure how to put the map in a thread. Do you mind starting the thread?

Also, does the map in question count as being in "daylight," or is there a lower level of light?

[Saph]

OK. Thread's here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6431867#post6431867).

I didn't specify the light the first time, so let's call it daylight.

- Saph

[lvl 1 sharnian]

9mm want to battle?

[9mm]

9mm want to battle?

Sure, that'll be fine by me.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I hope no one brings a handgun to a rifle fight.

Pardon the phrase.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Battle Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6433416#post6433416)

the threads up

[Saph]

Imperialspectre and I finished our battle. It's a fairly good one, or would have been if it hadn't been cut short by a natural 1 on a save. Still, it's an interesting showcase of a stealthy caster duel. Link. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6431867#post6431867)

- Saph

[Pharaoh's Fist]

So, Chuko, level 13, or 20?

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Anyone know if you get a bonus for using Cantrips with Arcane Strike?

And Soul Drain says that it negative levels with a touch, does that mean I make a touch attack in place of regular attacks and if so, can I replace all my attacks in the Monk's Flurry of Blows with touch attacks?

[Saph]

Anyone know if you get a bonus for using Cantrips with Arcane Strike?

No special bonus, you just get the +4.


And Soul Drain says that it negative levels with a touch, does that mean I make a touch attack in place of regular attacks and if so, can I replace all my attacks in the Monk's Flurry of Blows with touch attacks?

Book and page reference for Soul Drain, please?

- Saph

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Book and page reference for Soul Drain, please?

- SaphIIRC, the Soul Eater in BoVD, which is 3.0.

[Doc Roc]

Okay, congress time. Is soul eater allowed in ToS?
Can you really get into it with a total LA of +1 or less?

[Talic]

What's the source?

[imperialspectre]

What's the exploit, Tide? I'm not familiar with it.

Edit: All I can find is a stat block on a gleemax thread here (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-371821.html). It doesn't contain a level adjustment. While it has a potentially strong Bard synergy, I don't think it's ultimately something to ban. After all, the Drain the Soul ability only works on a helpless enemy, and making an enemy helpless takes a fair amount of work. The Fascinate ability is nice, but it's also [Mind-Affecting], so it can be negated with a 1st-level spell.

Frankly, I could do almost everything that the Soul Drinker can with a Sublime Chord build, and not be dumping 5 perfectly good levels into racial HD and +1 LA. The +20 Perform is nice, but I'd rather have casting.

[Talic]

Okay, congress time. Is soul drinker allowed in ToS?
Can you really get into it with a total LA of +1 or less?

Soul Eater is the PrC from BoVD. If that is the class referenced? The only racial restriction is <Nonhumanoid>. Monstrous Humanoid works for it, for that purpose.

To answer your question... Is it possible to get a nonhumanoid race on LA +1 or less?

Lesser Tiefling, Lesser Aasimar spring to mind.
Genasi, Aasimar, Tiefling, Kobold (with the appropriate feat), Necropolitan, Dromite, Elan.

That's just off the top of my head.

[imperialspectre]

The Soul Eater should, on face, be banned, because it gives shapechange as an ability. If that ability were removed, though, it's basically just a monk PrC that lets those unarmed strikes get really scary. That doesn't seem like something to ban, since letting a monk do something other than sitting in the corner weeping would probably be nice.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The Soul Eater should, on face, be banned, because it gives shapechange as an ability. If that ability were removed, though, it's basically just a monk PrC that lets those unarmed strikes get really scary. That doesn't seem like something to ban, since letting a monk do something other than sitting in the corner weeping would probably be nice.What about, say, a Monk/Totemest Dragonwrought Kobold, though? Get 30-40 nat attacks and suddenly you are very, very scary.

[imperialspectre]

What about, say, a Monk/Totemest Dragonwrought Kobold, though? Get 30-40 nat attacks and suddenly you are very, very scary.

This is very true, but the prereqs involved make it pretty tough to put that combo together. You need BAB +5 to get into Soul Eater to begin with (along with two BS feats, which means Dragonwrought Kobold is tough to pull). Monk 2/Totemist 4 gets BAB +5 and three feats, which would go to prereqs + Dragonwrought.

Now, if you were just going to dip one level of Soul Eater, that would leave you with 6 more levels of Totemist and a pretty horrifying beatstick that would do something like 7 negative levels on a full attack. But you still have to get a full attack, which means it comes down to tactics (and another beatstick won't even blink at -35 hp and -7 to attacks, because you're still probably going to eat a full attack right back at you).

Considering that a caster who feels like it can do just as many negative levels from range, using feats that are actually good, I don't think that we're looking at something truly broken - just good.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Things we have learned in the Monkening:


Sand is bad
Thinking with Portals is good
Wands take several turns to activate
Oozes/living spells are funny
Giacomo reads my mail

[Doc Roc]

Sorry, but I could NOT resist the oozes and friends. :)
They're technically WAY under CR, by the way.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

I say the Soul Eater is not overpowered, it's based entirely on giving out Negative Levels which is easy enough to gain immunity to and the shapechange? You would have to completely soul drain the target to beable to shapechange into it which would be hard enough itself.

[Talic]

Shapechange is limited to specific forms. Only the one he kills.

Class could be gained with Monk 2/Fi 4/Soul Eater 1/XX 6

The requirements aren't very feat intensive, so that leaves a lot of feat wiggle room.

Type: Any living nonhumanoid
(monstrous humanoid
is acceptable).
Alignment: Any evil.
Base Attack Bonus: +5.
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 2 ranks.
Feats: Alertness, Weapon Focus (claw or other natural
weapon).

[Doc Roc]

Those reqs are lower than I remember them. As long as you aren't an anthropomorphic squid, we're straight. You don't start with any available shapechanges, and bringing a critter with you in a bag to kill is..... frowned on.

Do the anthropomorphic animal races need to be banned?
I seem to remember they're from savage species, which is approval only.

[imperialspectre]

Shapechange is limited to specific forms. Only the one he kills.

In that case, I'd have to ask Tide: are spells being considered an ability acquired by shapechange? How about martial maneuvers? My concern with that character is the potential for becoming, essentially, a juggernaut that gets more powerful with each encounter.

If the shapechange doesn't grant either of those, then it's probably not problematic.

[mostlyharmful]

Things we have learned in the Monkening:


Sand is bad
Thinking with Portals is good
Wands take several turns to activate
Oozes/living spells are funny
Giacomo reads my mail


Pharoh's Fist has fabulous taste in catsuits

Cannabalism is not the first resort

Sand is difficult to hide behind

[Doc Roc]

I'm glad you guys like the dungeon so far, I had to nerf down some of the components a bit, but I think it'll be a good playground.
It's now mostly monstrous encounters instead of mostly traps.

Thank you so much for running it, Saph.

[9mm]

the other consideration with to soul drinker, is that the dice roller hates sharnian.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Me and 9mm just finished and he beat me. Right before the next round (which I rolled because I didn't notice I died from the attack) which I had a critical hit and two other hits I believe. Maybe the neg levels would have helped me. Looking back, I should have spent more time buffing and used arcane strike more.

EDIT: Since I'm dead, can you look at my build and check for errors/rule breaks? http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=136924

And did we get bonus feats for the 2 flaws?

[Saph]

I'm glad you guys like the dungeon so far, I had to nerf down some of the components a bit, but I think it'll be a good playground.
It's now mostly monstrous encounters instead of mostly traps.

Thank you so much for running it, Saph.

No prob. While the current encounter's only a CR 10, the party's only got three members, which evens things out a bit.

The annoying thing, though, is that I'm having to run Giacomo's character for him, since he keeps vanishing. I'm already controlling eight monsters and counting, so I'm not too happy about having to make tactical decisions for a PC as well.

- Saph

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Plus, people will always complain that you didn't handle their characters properly...

Does Saph want a cookie?

[imperialspectre]

Me and 9mm just finished and he beat me. Right before the next round (which I rolled because I didn't notice I died from the attack) which I had a critical hit and two other hits I believe. Maybe the neg levels would have helped me. Looking back, I should have spent more time buffing and used arcane strike more.

EDIT: Since I'm dead, can you look at my build and check for errors/rule breaks? http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=136924

And did we get bonus feats for the 2 flaws?

Yeah, you don't take flaws for the hell of it, you get a bonus feat for each flaw.

With regard to the character itself, you need to pick one thing and focus on it. You could get a lot more utility out of the Soul Eater thing if you went for Totemist, taking no more than 2 levels of Monk. Get the Girallon Arms and Lamia Belt soulmelds, bound to your Totem chakra, giving you something like 6 extra natural attacks. Then Flurry of Blows + (if this is allowed) your extra Totemist attacks has some real damage potential (if you can make 8 touch attacks, you deal 8 negative levels).

Or if you want to play like a caster, then build a caster. Abjurer 3/Master Specialist 4/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veils 6, for example, is a phenomenal caster who can probably survive just about anything you'd find in a dungeon, as long as you don't do something silly tactically. If you want to be a beatstick who can cast spells, try a straight 13 levels of Duskblade, although you'll have to pay through the nose for magic items. But don't split your levels between Monk and Wizard.

[mostlyharmful]

Saph rocks. As my pincushion PC attests. Just sayin.

[Doc Roc]

No credit to Jake for laying out the encounter? ;)
Saph seriously does rock.

[mostlyharmful]

No credit to Jake for laying out the encounter? ;)
Saph seriously does rock.

no. no credit for you. surely you've learned the rule that the hard work gets you nothin', it's the cool moves that gets the babes.

[9mm]

Me and 9mm just finished and he beat me. Right before the next round (which I rolled because I didn't notice I died from the attack) which I had a critical hit and two other hits I believe. Maybe the neg levels would have helped me. Looking back, I should have spent more time buffing and used arcane strike more.

yeah, you should have cast bull's streagh before any of the defence buffs, because while I was throwing massive bombs your way, those negetive levels would've added up quickly.

[Doc Roc]

Can I get a link to the thread to first post it?

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Yeah, you don't take flaws for the hell of it, you get a bonus feat for each flaw.

With regard to the character itself, you need to pick one thing and focus on it. You could get a lot more utility out of the Soul Eater thing if you went for Totemist, taking no more than 2 levels of Monk. Get the Girallon Arms and Lamia Belt soulmelds, bound to your Totem chakra, giving you something like 6 extra natural attacks. Then Flurry of Blows + (if this is allowed) your extra Totemist attacks has some real damage potential (if you can make 8 touch attacks, you deal 8 negative levels).

Or if you want to play like a caster, then build a caster. Abjurer 3/Master Specialist 4/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veils 6, for example, is a phenomenal caster who can probably survive just about anything you'd find in a dungeon, as long as you don't do something silly tactically. If you want to be a beatstick who can cast spells, try a straight 13 levels of Duskblade, although you'll have to pay through the nose for magic items. But don't split your levels between Monk and Wizard.

Cool thanks, only reason my class choice was so split was because I'm fresh out of Core and didn't know where to look for stuff (I had only looked at the 2 Vile/Exalted books and Complete Warrior for this build) and I was trying to build a character by myself. The wizard levels were because of my need for access to See Invisibility and I thought, to hell with it and got the extra levels for Displacement.

EDIT: Here you go Battle Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6433416#post6433416)

[9mm]

Can I get a link to the thread to first post it?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117340

[Doc Roc]

Definitely understand. If you ever need build help, just ask one of us. Basically, and this is sort of silly\pathetic, Test of Spite was me pulling a scroll of Genesis out of my pocket, and using it to make a demi-plane with planar traits similar or equivalent to the Wizards of the Coast CO boards. I really miss that atmosphere, and the sense of adventure that came with it, the feeling that sure, brilliant people had gone through the rules carefully, but that there were always more tidbits and silly things to find.

It was a game in and of itself. Here's to old friends who don't come round no more.

[quick_comment]

Okay, congress time. Is soul eater allowed in ToS?
Can you really get into it with a total LA of +1 or less?

Warforged are nice for soul eater, because they can get several natural attacks

[imperialspectre]

Cool thanks, only reason my class choice was so split was because I'm fresh out of Core and didn't know where to look for stuff (I had only looked at the 2 Vile/Exalted books and Complete Warrior for this build) and I was trying to build a character by myself. The wizard levels were because of my need for access to See Invisibility and I thought, to hell with it and got the extra levels for Displacement.

EDIT: Here you go Battle Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6433416#post6433416)

That's completely understandable. If you have the Magic Item Compendium, I'm pretty sure there are ways to see invis there; if you want to pay for it, you can also get arcane sight permanencied on yourself.

Also, if you're going to try another Soul Eater build, remember that you're trying to target touch AC for your negative level attacks. That means that most of your attacks probably should've hit (I don't know 9mm's build), and you would've killed him just off of negative levels. With your miss chances and other defense, you didn't need to worry about doing damage, just getting enough negative levels to turn him into some kind of really ugly ghost.

[Doc Roc]

Really ugly ghost whose form you can permanently assume.
That's the part that sort of worries me....
I'm thinking of de-emphasizing the PvP element of the ToS dungeon.... It's looking like it could be exceptionally problematic.

[9mm]

That's completely understandable. If you have the Magic Item Compendium, I'm pretty sure there are ways to see invis there; if you want to pay for it, you can also get arcane sight permanencied on yourself.

Also, if you're going to try another Soul Eater build, remember that you're trying to target touch AC for your negative level attacks. That means that most of your attacks probably should've hit (I don't know 9mm's build), and you would've killed him just off of negative levels. With your miss chances and other defense, you didn't need to worry about doing damage, just getting enough negative levels to turn him into some kind of really ugly ghost.
I just went and checked, he'd have hit me 6 time total with touch attacks instead of twice. (touch ac is 21) which would have had me seriously consider using teh healing belt, I probably could have survived.

[imperialspectre]

Which is -6 to your attack rolls and saves. Negative levels have that sort of cascading effect, which is why they're a nice trick.

And arguably, martial maneuvers would be lost via negative levels.


Really ugly ghost whose form you can permanently assume.
That's the part that sort of worries me....
I'm thinking of de-emphasizing the PvP element of the ToS dungeon.... It's looking like it could be exceptionally problematic.

Well, he can assume the form for the next 24 hours. After that, it's gone. Again, if shapechange is understood as 1) not gaining maneuvers or spells and 2) only one form at a time, I don't think it's a broken ability - especially since taking 6 levels of Soul Eater means that you're only going to be a halfway Totemist at best and won't be able to unleash quite as scary of a natural attack routine.

[Doc Roc]

:: nods :: If we do read it as getting none of the true goodies, then we're straight. Shapechange is problematic, and it was even weirder when Soul Drinker was originally written. I say we opt for that reading.

[9mm]

Which is -6 to your attack rolls and saves. Negative levels have that sort of cascading effect, which is why they're a nice trick.

And arguably, martial maneuvers would be lost via negative levels.


I'd lose my entire prc (loss of skill focus and int to ac), plus 1 readied manuver and a stance, total. all of which I could make temperary through use of planning and adaptive style. the main question is whether I could still hit, even with my absolute, "I hit you" blurstrik/emerald razor trick.

[Talic]

I'd lose my entire prc (loss of skill focus and int to ac), plus 1 readied manuver and a stance, total. all of which I could make temperary through use of planning and adaptive style. the main question is whether I could still hit, even with my absolute, "I hit you" blurstrik/emerald razor trick.

Depends. It's possible to make characters with stupid high AC, or ones that are nearly undetectable.

[imperialspectre]

Well, mad props to you (9mm) for building a character that could actually take 6 negative levels and still have a chance. My Shadowcraft Gnome would've been terrified at the prospect, you can be sure.

You might also have lost initiator levels in terms of the highest maneuvers you could access, depending on how negative levels apply, but since you were relying on Emerald Razor and skill checks, I doubt that would've made too much of a difference.

[Doc Roc]

So far, most of the matches have been curiously even, which really surprised me!

[Talic]

Well, mad props to you (9mm) for building a character that could actually take 6 negative levels and still have a chance. My Shadowcraft Gnome would've been terrified at the prospect, you can be sure.

You might also have lost initiator levels in terms of the highest maneuvers you could access, depending on how negative levels apply, but since you were relying on Emerald Razor and skill checks, I doubt that would've made too much of a difference.

Nah, the one I built had crazy levels of hide in plain sight and a hide modifier of +45 or so. Operated on the philosophy that the best way to not be hit was to not be seen.

[imperialspectre]

I had +42 to Hide and HiPS as a full caster, I just made a dumb tactical mistake that let Saph's Arcane Sight catch up to me.

[Talic]

Glad I wasn't facing you. It would have been a LONG match. My advantage was that my HIPS was (EX) and didn't require shadows.

[9mm]

sooo... what happens to Yojimbo?

[imperialspectre]

Glad I wasn't facing you. It would have been a LONG match. My advantage was that my HIPS was (EX) and didn't require shadows.

Did you have a way to stop Mindsight? It's not bypassed by Darkstalker, I know, and Mindbender telepathy doesn't have the [Mind-Affecting] tag.

Also, did you have an easy out for forcecage/cloudkill? 'Cause if you did, as a non-caster, I am REALLY going to have to look for another win button. :P

[Talic]

I'd need to review the ability, but I believe that was one of the build's weak points, though I did have nondetection up.

[T.G. Oskar]

Hmm...I might wanna give this a try.

There's two builds that have gotten into my mind recently, mostly two variants of a singular build. I already have some ideas as to how to build them, but I want to refine them a bit with backup, specifically against swordsages and Kings of Smack which are the closest things around. Certainly, it won't defeat one of the Big 5 (and I'd be surprised if it gives it a run for its money, actually!), but I'd like to see how it runs.

In either case: is there any other site where to post character sheets that doesn't require joining at their forum? I'm fine with posting the sheet in the DMGII format, since I'm pretty familiar with it. I know most of you guys in here use Tangled Web and one other site, but those require joining on the forums and I feel pretty cheap to join a forum just to use a feature of it (I'm slowly trying to expand my participation in this forum, actually)

I feel tempted to explain the build eventually, just to see if it has a precedent, but I want to hard-test it and also to try out the RPBs around here using the d20 rules; I'm trained in some free-form forum roleplay, so expect me to be quite...ample in my writing. It's mostly for tweaking and fine-tuning, and it can be either a serious build or a "for-fun" build. Mostly to find ways to refine the build yet keeping it open enough for some variety.

Though, a big heads up: it's a Monk build. Pretty bizarre since I'm a sucker for hybrid classes (Paladin, Ranger, Bard, Hexblade, Duskblade, Psychic Warrior, Spellthief, and so on, so on). But, it's that build bug picking, and I won't feel good until I get that off my mind.

[Doc Roc]

You are, of course always welcome, but really I would appreciate it if you did up the sheet in mythweavers. When this is over, I'll be collating the sheets all together, snazzing them up, and making them into an easy-to-reference book of optimized npcs.

[9mm]

You are, of course always welcome, but really I would appreciate it if you did up the sheet in mythweavers. When this is over, I'll be collating the sheets all together, snazzing them up, and making them into an easy-to-reference book of optimized npcs.

and by snazzing them up, you mean fixing my wonked out spelling...:smalltongue:

(I don't think I've spelled Ijitsu right yet.)

[lvl 1 sharnian]

So... What books do yall recommend? No psionics. Preferably some good warrior books

[Talic]

I'll build a psion build later on, I think.

[Doc Roc]

Books I lean heavily on:

Shining South
Heroes of Horror
Tome of Battle
Complete Divine
Spell Compendium
Magic Item Compendium
Explorer's Handbook (eberron book, offers up a lot of small goodies, and crucially the Drake Helms)

Builds I enjoy:
Dual progression builds.
Ur-Priest+ToB builds.
Anything that hits like a truck or deploys a really bizarre exploit, like the Bear Lasers.

[Talic]

Hits like a truck, you say...

I'd like Lords of Madness for my extra book.

[Doc Roc]

Extra book? :: gentle grin ::
What's an extra book?

I do love lords of madness, I've just always felt like some of the stuff wasn't intended for players, so I feel guilty using it. A lot of those feats should really be tagged as monstrous feats. Ocular spell does not, repeat, does not qualify things as persistifable for ToS purposes even though it should.

[Talic]

Extra book? :: gentle grin ::
What's an extra book?

I do love lords of madness, I've just always felt like some of the stuff wasn't intended for players, so I feel guilty using it. A lot of those feats should really be tagged as monstrous feats. Ocular spell does not, repeat, does not qualify things as persistifable for ToS purposes even though it should.

I wasn't gonna use any FEATS.

I was looking at GRAFTS.

[Doc Roc]

Ooooohhhh.

::Hums the Jurassic park theme ::

[T.G. Oskar]

So...if I read the rules of character creation correctly, this means the following:

--One of the prospective races is already out of the question (poor, poor Githzerai with its +2 LA T.T). Might attempt either Human or Buonman. Must check Rhek Rheks are not fine XD. Perhaps Silverbrow Human or Strongheart Halfling. Oh well, the race matters a lot.

--If Extra Spell is limited to once AND ONLY ONCE, then Expanded Knowledge follows the same suite. Is it limited only to the class list, or does it work as normal? That's another of the ideas running around in the build, and works nicely as a band-aid feat.

--Monks on full BAB? Seriously? Interesting...I would have been interested in seeing how it worked with little BAB. Mostly on one of the builds.

--Yes, in case that it wasn't noticed, will be using Psionic Fist. The whole gist of the build is using Psionics, so if by any case it were out of the list, then there's a tad of trouble.

--I reckon Magic Item Compendium is available. Are all of the rules from it available, aside from no custom runestaves? (Bottom line: combining two kinds of boots. One is Speed. Other is Agile Leaping)

--Following that line: in Complete Arcane, you can treat Bracers of Armor as an armor for purposes of adding special abilities, with a specific restriction. I reckon that rule applies to, say, Amulet of Mighty Fists as well? (Essentially, if you can add +X weapon special abilities to an AoMF and increase the value of the item as if it were an AoMF X+1)

I guess I can make up other questions later, but at least that round first.

[Doc Roc]

Expanded Knowledge is not similarly limited, because most of the psionic casters have highly constrained lists, and in one or two cases you actually get multiple instances of expanded knowledge as a bonus feat. The intent is clear, and the nature of psionics basically demands that I allow it in full. Extra Spelll.... is...... problematic. For reasons I don't want to talk about.

Custom Runestaves SHOULD be permitted... did I ban them for some reason?
We allow drake helms, so I should permit custom runestaves. I think I forgot to add an exception clause to the item customization ban... whoops!

[Talic]

Ooooohhhh.

::Hums the Jurassic park theme ::

There's one that lets ordinary freaks behave like quadrupeds. Add that to the MIC item that enhances Carrying Capacity, and it sounds like a good basis for a Hulking Hurler.

[Doc Roc]

It's a superb basis for hulking hurler. I've been debating a rationality ruling on hulking hurler, but we'll see how it performs in actual practice before we discuss further changes. As you know, I try to follow a policy of minimal banning, though I'm sure it's hard for most people to tell :)

[imperialspectre]

I'd say a basic familiarity with 339 and the other CharOp stuff around the internet would let anyone know that the ban list is fairly minimal in this exercise. I know that when I was reading the ban list, I was checking off various broken combos in my head that were being prevented by specific bans.

One of my friends and I were discussing the possibility of a two-player team using Artificer + Archivist to generate a great deal of spell flexibility, various persist trickery, and other fun things. Is the stealth nerf that prevents casters from scribing Artificer scrolls in effect?

I'm also putting together another solo arcanist. No other information until I finish the build and test it, though. :smallbiggrin:

[ex cathedra]

I'm a few pages late, but I've been on a bad connection and making cookies, so I'd like to bring Souleater back up. I asked if the Feral template from SS was allowed, and I thought I'd mention the fact that it's a +1 ECL template that gives both Monstrous Humanoid and claws. Oh, and fast healing, pounce, rake, rend, darkvision, +6 or +4 str, +4 or +2 con, and +2 wis. I haven't looked at it in a while, though. Anyways, would it generally be allowed?

Edit: And lest I forget, Tide, how are finals coming?

[Doc Roc]

Uh-oh spaghetti Os!
::pronounced with a scooby-doo voice for added effect::

The answer is that I'm not sure. Feral is a gateway to a number of abuses, and represents a fundamental error in the LA balancing system. It's from a book that is request-only, the only book to achieve such status. The issue is that I'm not perfectly up to speed on the applicability of the ToS. I suspect it is very high, and also sufficiently damaging to merit a refusal.

I would like community opinions, however.

Ae:
God-awful, frankly.

[ex cathedra]

Let's see: Feral gives 4 Str, 2 Con, 2 Wis, -2 Dex, and -4 Int. So, net +2; slightly misleading, as the dex and int aren't utterly crippling to the builds Feral lends itself towards.

Monstrous Humanoid; there are a lot of advantages of having a nonstandard type, but Monstrous Humanoid isn't nearly as overpowering as, say, Outsider, etc. Helpful, regardless.

Natural Armor: +6.
Christ. Oh hi, 50k magic item. I'm better than you, and free.

Special Abilities: Ok, ToS is ECL 13. Feral is +1 ECL. Feral receives all of it's advantages circa.. ECL 12. How fortuitous. Limited pounce, rake, rend, improved grapple, fast healing 5, 120ft. darkvision... oh, right, +10 speed and high damage claw attacks. You know. To rub it in.

Comparatively? Not a template, but for ECL +1...
Aasimar.
+2 Wis, +2 Cha.
Nice, nice. Good synergy with a lot of builds, no penalities.

Type: Outsider.
Yay, martial weapon proficiencies for everyone! It's a lot better outside of ToS, with alter form and similar shenanigans.

Uh, what else...
Racial Ability light, and a few minor bonuses. Not much else, iirc.

So, Feral's obviously good. Good enough to ban? I'm not sure. If houseruled to be a higher ECL, that would effectively ban it anyways. I'm not sure how best to handle it.

Edit:
Tide, sorry to hear that.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Im going to give this another shot...after I finish my characters skills and such, she is inbound to your PM box.

Feral is fun...too fun :smalltongue:

[imperialspectre]

Olo: I'll have a character ready to go fairly soon, as well. Do you want to set up a match when we're both finished w/ characters?

[Talic]

Anyone know a Large race that's +1 LA or less?

Oh, and Tide: Would it be possible to take a +2 LA race, and use LA Buyoff to get it to the +1 Legal?

[Doc Roc]

It would depend on the race, I feel.

[Talic]

The Race is Half-Ogre (Races of Destiny) If allowed, I'd likely buy it down to LA 0 (costing 16,000 total XP). Mainly choosing it for Large size, and no special abilities more game-breaking than Darkvision.

It's a shame I didn't actually get to grow the character organically. In a party , when you LA Buyoff, the nature of the Exp chart beast means you earn more XP (lower ECL than the rest of the party) to balance everything out. Eh, such is the nature of the beast in artificial character creation.

[mostlyharmful]

well I've got to say that wasn't all that impressive for my thief. Grand total of one action taken to try to hide before being swarmed by bad saving throws and poisonous rosebushes. Argh!

[tarbrush]

Are you still taking more meat for the grinder? I've got a build I'd quite like to try out, as I've no idea how good it is :)

[Saph]

well I've got to say that wasn't all that impressive for my thief. Grand total of one action taken to try to hide before being swarmed by bad saving throws and poisonous rosebushes. Argh!

You might still be alive . . . just.

And good grief, Tide, could you possibly have picked a more complicated set of monsters to run? :P It took me two hours to do the current battle update, although admittedly half of that was making rulings on the stack of conflicting spells and weird effects the PCs are under.

By the way, a question for future battles: What happens when a character under the effect of a fly spell is paralysed or otherwise incapacitated? Do they fall out of the sky, sink slowly, hover, or what?

- Saph

[9mm]

You might still be alive . . . just.

And good grief, Tide, could you possibly have picked a more complicated set of monsters to run? :P It took me two hours to do the current battle update, although admittedly half of that was making rulings on the stack of conflicting spells and weird effects the PCs are under.

By the way, a question for future battles: What happens when a character under the effect of a fly spell is paralysed or otherwise incapacitated? Do they fall out of the sky, sink slowly, hover, or what?

- Saph

if still aware of there suroundings, I'd have them still able to move, but look REALLY, REALLY silly. if they aren't aware, i'd have them float if their not the source of the flight, and fall like a brick if they are.

[Doc Roc]

@Saph:
Sorry for the very intricate set of monsters. I threw the encounter together pretty quickly from my internal lock-box of hellish or exotic mobs, picking ones that highlighted weakspots in the various builds. I'm sorry about the flowers though.... Those are definitely NOT their listed CR 6 for an unprepared party.... Wasn't thinking about the degree of sophistication they exhibited, but it's been my experience that unless the monster has fancy abilities, it tends to just insta-gib under heavy incoming fire, or act like a glass cannon and auto-frag a PC.

[T.G. Oskar]

Hmm...probably going to make it Human. Unless LA buy-off Githzerai (psionic version) is allowed, in which case I could work both buy-outs (and make the character level 12th in comparison, but making the race legal for technically one lost level isn't that bad)

Now, for a particularly confusing rule...what's the ruling about monks and Two-Weapon Fighting, using exclusively unarmed strikes? This would apply to the build I'm mostly working on (though it would be missing some power, apparently)

Good call on the Expanded Knowledge, Tide. I said because some of the great stuff for this build actually lies within the 2nd level or 4th level lists for psions and specifically their disciplines, which delivers particularly well with the bonus feats of Psionic Fist. However, most of the truly breaking ones are already nulled (did you know that, despite the lofty amount of PP, a Psionic Fist with Expanded Knowledge can get to use Metamorphosis? Granted, not exactly as awesome as having a Psion do it, but it can still be worked)

As for the Fly: the spell effectively allows them to hover. It's mostly stacking a fly speed along with Levitate (so they end their turn aloft) and Feather Fall (for when the spell effect ends while aloft). So, they'd remain there, standing silly probably.

[Sir Giacomo]

On the fly effect and Saph's question: I guess T.G. Oskar is correct - a paralysing effect should not cause the (magically) flying creature to fall or float down to the ground. It just hangs limply in the air. It could even be argued that you can still fly while being paralysed as it is done with concentration and no physical effort - however, the fly spell description suggests it is similar physical motive process as walking ... so the paralysis effect should prevent flying.

Then, one question from my side: the summoning spell-like ability of creatures: isn't it a full-round action like the summon monster spell? Or am I getting something wrong?

- Giacomo

PS: @Tidesinger/Saph- I like the dungeon challenge very much so far!

[mostlyharmful]

On the fly effect and Saph's question: I guess T.G. Oskar is correct - a paralysing effect should not cause the (magically) flying creature to fall or float down to the ground. It just hangs limply in the air. It could even be argued that you can still fly while being paralysed as it is done with concentration and no physical effort - however, the fly spell description suggests it is similar physical motive process as walking ... so the paralysis effect should prevent flying.

Could go either way really, does the spell work off mental ques or physical? Well, it doesn't really spell it out either way.

personally, I'd think you'd have to go one of two ways. Either you drop like a rock (physical direction of spell) or you keep flying normally (mental control). Saph's a nice DM in letting me drift down nicely rather than dropping Tina on her ass with falling damage.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Could go either way really, does the spell work off mental ques or physical? Well, it doesn't really spell it out either way.

personally, I'd think you'd have to go one of two ways. Either you drop like a rock (physical direction of spell) or you keep flying normally (mental control). Saph's a nice DM in letting me drift down nicely rather than dropping Tina on her ass with falling damage.I think thats closest to the RAI. Look what happens if the duration runs out, for example. It seems like without your direction, the spell is still going to avoid killing you.

[Doc Roc]

How do people feel about the suite of house rules so far?
Constructive Suggestions on a better fix for the Schools?

[Doc Roc]

One of my friends and I were discussing the possibility of a two-player team using Artificer + Archivist to generate a great deal of spell flexibility, various persist trickery, and other fun things. Is the stealth nerf that prevents casters from scribing Artificer scrolls in effect?


I'm a 339 regular :)
I'm going to hold off on allowing more 2 player teams in the non-dungeon areas for now, due to the SERIOUS problems those threads have had so far. Basically, it's just a huge pain in the ass.

As for scribing artificer spells, I thought it was explicitly ruled that they could not be scribed?
I suppose Archivist has a different scribing mechanism though. I remain curious as to this trick, if you'd be so kind as to lay out the full intent and some RAW support, we could talk about whether it's legal or not and potentially lay down some canonical rulings so people know where they stand.


Basically, the ToS is me testing a dungeon, but also preparing to actually build out a 3.51 update, based on the principle of absolute minimal breaking changes and maximum clarity where breaking changes are needed.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

As for scribing artificer spells, I thought it was explicitly ruled that they could not be scribed?
I suppose Archivist has a different scribing mechanism though. I remain curious as to this trick, if you'd be so kind as to lay out the full intent and some RAW support, we could talk about whether it's legal or not and potentially lay down some canonical rulings so people know where they stand.Artificer scrolls are neither arcane nor divine. You'd need a Warlock to do it, sorry.

[mostlyharmful]

I think thats closest to the RAI. Look what happens if the duration runs out, for example. It seems like without your direction, the spell is still going to avoid killing you.

running out and being dispelled and being uncontrolled are all different things. It's not a matter of it acting for you when it dies off so much as a lack of instructions. Does it idle or does it stall? Could be ruled either way

[tarbrush]

So, a new challenger approaches. Anyone up for a fight? :)

Oh, and on the houserules part: death to Dust of Sneezing and Choking!

[9mm]

How do people feel about the suite of house rules so far?
Constructive Suggestions on a better fix for the Schools?

there're cool as far as i'm concerned, though banning all fighters except dungeon crashers seems weird to me.

[Doc Roc]

Dust of Sneezing and Choking should be banned... is it not?

[ex cathedra]

I like the schools fix quite a bit. I actually had quite a bit of trouble banning schools; I dropped evocation and necromancy, iirc. The fact that this character is primarily a gish was a contributing factor; were it a straight caster, I'm not sure if I would drop either of them.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Im willing to fight anyone as soon as Tide approves the character that I sent him...

I like the houserules a lot, it doesnt get too much in the way of most of my builds and keeps out the extreme cheeze.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Looks like my 2v2 is dead. Anyone want to take me on?

[imperialspectre]

Pharaoh's Fist: You're on. Any particular map preferences?

Tide: As a balance thing, I actually really like the school changes. I'm not sure how well they hold up in terms of fluff, but in terms of not having mechanically "easy" schools to drop I think you succeeded remarkably.

Obviously, the school changes do make life a lot easier for beguilers and warmages, since the former can boost defense (through Advanced Learning) and mobility (through Shadow Evocation or similar tricks) and the former at least get to teleport to new locales where they can blow [up] goats for pocket change. I don't think that's a bad thing, although I've really liked the beguiler class for a long time and may be biased.

I took a more aggressive "3.75" approach in the houserule documents that I wrote up for my group; if you want to PM me we could talk about it.