Test of Spite [D&D 3.5]

[Doc Roc]

Hello, I am an angry man.
Perhaps you too, are angry? Bitter? Seeking some sort of vindication in a large world spiraling oddly away from you?

Crack open that tube full of dice.
Like the similarly named Test of Might run by the altogether-better-person Akuma, this is a thread about explorations of the further edges of game performance. We will be running a slightly altered rules set, for which I have reserved a post below this one. The crux of the challenge is that you are presented with a dungeon and must navigate through its preliminary challenges to kill each other. I hear this is a popular past-time.


Let me repeat.
This is a PvP dungeoneering game.

First, players must survive a 1v1 or 2v2 match against a willing opponent.
Hence the name, test of spite. Your punishment for seeking satisfaction through violence will become apparent thereafter.

Surviving players will be released into the PvP dungeon section which exists as a subset of Ravenloft. There, they must make the necessary allegiances, preparations, or other decisions regarding who they will work with in an effort to reach the center of the arena where they will be tested against each other in mortal combat. The Dark Powers that run this arena are not amused by attempts to throw the game, however, so be prepared for serious OOC bargaining to get your ingame toon eaten by the hounds of tindalos. Naturally, warnings will be provided.

Upon navigation of the dungeon, you will reach the final arena, where matches may be 1v1 or 2v2 as negotiated in game. Victory will register you as the current incumbents, and you may rest before facing the onslaught of other people who complete the dungeon. Three victories allows you to escape Ravenloft, and with it, the arena.


Sign-ups can be done here, but primarily this is a thread for the comments and questions.
Starting level is 13th, with full EWL as per 135 in the DMG.
All WotC books allowed barring contraindication in the rules provided below.
Infinite loops are permitted to trigger precisely once, after which your character will be killed by the hounds of tindalos.
Make sure it was worth it.
Those who get an infinite loop past me during character creation will receive special mention in the halls of honor.
Attempts to use the infinite loop in either the final arena or the starting arena will result in summary consumption by hungry hungry hound dogs, but you will receive a commendation in the halls of honor, though your opponent will be counted as victorious if it is a 1v1.




Submit Your Sheet For Approval (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/sendmessage.php?do=mailmember&u=46222)
Sign Up && Match-Making (http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AodLcxsM7Nx0dFZwQmtxUTNXQllSN2dIX01waElaR 0E&hl=en)
Dungeon Waiting List (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYdLcxsM7Nx0ZGc2NzhibjNfNjBnNnJuY3I2Mg&hl=en)
Map Making (http://home.broadpark.no/~hfled/)

[Doc Roc]

Arena Format
There are three major choices involved in the opening arena segment. These are on a match-by-match basis.
q_____________________________________p

First:


You may opt to use the swapping terrain placement schema used by most war-games to generate an arena.
You may opt to have me randomly generate an arena.
You may opt to have a standard and known arena used.

Second:

You may opt to have no buffs active.
You may opt to have all-day buffs active.
You may opt to have prepared for the encounter in general terms.
You may opt to ask three questions, specific, as per Contact Other Plane, about the opposition, and prepare all-day buffs accordingly. This option is not recommended. It is provided for the sake of completeness.
Third:

You may opt to disallow summons and called or bought creatures.
You may opt to disallow the above during the buff rounds.
You may opt to allow the above during buff rounds and declare the allowance thereof.
Finally:

Each set of opposition may come to a consensus about these options.
You may yield one set of choices at random to the opposition.
You may place your fate in my terrible clutches.



3.51 Rules Updates
The following are the character generation rules for the Test of Spite.
Help with optimization is available. Please do not be intimidated by the list of changes
q_____________________________________p
You begin with 78k XP, sufficient to place your level at 13th.
HP is Max for first level, then average HP.
No Fractional BAB or Saves
Up to 1 Trait and 2 flaws
No Action Points.
No LA above +1.
28 Point buy.

Any XP spent is deducted from your total.
As such, your total class levels will reflect this.
XP will be gained during your stay
LA Buy-off allowed.



3.51 Fix and Ban List

General :


Aasimar and similarly all native outsiders do not grant weapon proficiencies for the purposes of class qualification.
Dragonlance's dragonspawn templates are banned.
Feats, abilities, and other benefits granted by spells or items may not be used to fulfill any qualification requirement. This excludes Psychic Reformation and similar instantaneous effects.
All forms of awaken are banned.
Splitting and similar effects copy only the item, not positive effects currently on it.
Due to the ongoing interference of the Dark Powers, divinely granted templates are not permitted in ravenloft, and all who have them are stripped of them, with the exclusion of saint which they rightly find hilarious.
Undead are not immune to mind-affecting spells.
Kobolds may not qualify for lore-drake or epic feats.
Dusk Giants do not exist.
Mention of the sarrukh should be followed by your home address ;)
Shambling mounds do not exist.
You may not order a creature or player to fail a save in any fashion.
Initiate of Mystra is banned. Really. Really. Banned.
Pazuzu does not exist.
You may have one clone, and it must be on Ravenloft. Clones are 14k.
The Far Realms do not exist.
Time Travel is soft-banned, in that where-ever you travel to, the hounds will be there. Temporal regression is permitted, but long chains ( x>2 ) are not. Time hop and similar are permitted.



Source Material


Iron Kingdoms material is allowed on a case by case basis.
Dragon and Dungeon Magazine are banned.
Serpent Kingdoms is approval-only material.
Savage Species is approval-only material.



Unearthed Arcana :

The following takes the form of an allow list, rather than a ban list.

Flaws and traits.
Variant classes.
Additional Favored Class feat.
Prestige paladin and bard.
Racial paragons.
I may have forgotten things previously allowed. Please ask if you are curious.



q_____________________________________p

Base Classes :


Fighter is banned, excluding dungeoncrasher.
Erudite is banned.
Domain wizards are banned.
Monk is full-bab.
Unarmed swordsage is legal.
All druids are aspect druids as per UA. In addition, all sources of wild shape are banned.
Swordsages gain adaptive style as a bonus feat at level 4. Swordsages also get 6x skill points at first level, despite it being a clear error. Just too cool to take away.
Clerics are not alignment locked.
All clerics are cloistered clerics.
Artificers may only shuffle bonuses between enhancement, insight, and competence.
1d2 crusaders do not exist.
Archivists are limited to the following sources for spells known at start:
Domain lists, Cleric, Druid, Shugenja, Ranger, Paladin, Healer, Adept.
Other divine casters by permission

Banned:
Runescarred Berserker list, arcane spells turned into divine scrolls by means not covered or permitted by the above.

Focused specialists do not exist.
All prepared casters start with at minimum one spell scribed per level.
Prepared casters should buy every spell they expect to need. Getting more will be ludicrously difficult.



Prestige Classes :


Subverted Psion is banned.
Arcane Archers may use crossbows.
Rainbow Servants are a 8/10 casting class that loses a caster level at first and second.
Planar Shepherd is banned.
Master of Many Forms is impossible to qualify for, or ought to be, and is banned.
Master Transmogrist is impossible to qualify for, or ought to be, and is banned.
Ruby Knight Vindicators may gain only one additional swift action per turn.
Tainted scholar and tainted sorcerer are both banned until a suitable fix is suggested.
Dweomerkeeper is banned.
Cancer mage is banned.
Incantatrix is banned.
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil's veils duplicate the effect of layers, rather than the effects of the whole spell, and are thus subject to dispelling and AMF. Beyond this, the class is unchanged.



Feats :


Retraining is not permitted except in extraordinary cases where a feat becomes useless.
Sanctum Spell does not apply for determining if you can affect a spell with items or spells.
Adaptive style refreshes your maneuvers.
Mortalbane does not allow stacking uses. Arcane strike does not allow stacking uses. This should be considered precedent.
Item familiars are banned.
Greenbound Summoning is banned.
Mercantile background is banned.
Uncanny forethought is banned.
Arcane thesis affects only the first applied metamagic.
Leadership, Undead Leadership, Thrallherd, and Dragon Cohort are banned. Similar or derivative effects are also banned.
Legendary locations that grant feats are unilaterally excluded from serving as pre-requisites. You may only use one per character.
Extra spell is not list specific, but may be taken precisely once and with DM approval.
Reserves of Strength is banned.
Craft Contingent Spell has double XP costs, these cannot be reduced, and may produce only three contingent spells at a time. The conditions must be as or more exact than contingency normally requires, but no proofing assistance will be offered.



Spells, Spell-Like Abilities, Maneuvers, and Powers


Teleportation subschool is now part of the evocation school.
Enchantment and Abjuration are now one school.
Polymorph, alter self, metamorphosis, and all derivatives not specifying a single shape are likewise banned.
Genesis is banned.
Forced Dream is banned.
Explosive runes is banned.
Timestop is explicitly banned.
Gate can no longer be used to call or summon.
Leech Ghost Skill is banned.
SLAs are not free of expensive or somatic components.
Embrace\Shun The Dark Chaos is permitted, but cannot be done during character creation. If you can pull it off in the dungeon or the arenas, my commendations await.
Glyph Seals do not accept personal range spells.
There are no free wishes.
Starmantle Cloak and evasion do not stack.
Contingency cannot be cast from a ring of spell storing.
Ice assassin's material components cannot be obviated in any fashion.
Anything you bring in via planar binding or ally cannot leave, and will be incredibly angry about this.
Degenerate-case stacking of consumptive field will result in immediate consumption by the hounds.
Dweomer of Transference only converts spells cast by its caster.
Fusion is banned.
Mindblank and all derivatives are subject to a caster level check at a penalty dependent on available information.
The Locate Cities trick does not work.
Planeshift does not work, as you are trapped in ravenloft.
Contact Other Plane and similar effects that use a consultation with a higher power always reach the Dark Powers instead of the intended target. While ungood, this does not negate the spells.
Acorn of Far Travel is banned.
White Raven Tactics may be used precisely once per battle per player.



Metamagic and Metapsionics


Persistant Spell's range requirements can not be obfuscated by any means, including but not limited to Ocular Spell, Reach spell, or any variant thereof. In the case of exhibition matches, Earthbound spell may be allowed.
Metamagic costs have a strict minimum value of one, unless the ability specifically reduces them to zero, such as DMM or an alternate cost payment method.
Alert me if you plan to use Linked Power, and explain why.



Magic Items and Crafting


Dust of sneezing and choking is banned.
Items may not be bought at a price reduction. This does not apply to crafting but does prohibit writing a friendly crafter into your backstory, the purchase of partially charged items, the use of curses or item flaws, and similar.
The Ring of the Beast is banned.
Creation costs are:

(Gold, Exp)= (J*(1/2)*Base_price, K*(1/25)*Base_price)
Where K and J are cost reductions from feats or class features and may go no lower than .65
Custom item creation is not permitted except as per the bonus stacking\slot stacking rules in the MiC.
A few item types, such as scrolls, are unaffected entirely by this.
Custom runestaves, scepters, and full-charged wands are in exception to this rule. Staffs are not.
Psionic items may be customized on an approval-only basis, as some of the rules effectively demand it.
Attempts to get a custom item other than the above exceptions will likely be disapproved, but if you aren't sure, please, ask anyway.
Amulet of second chances is banned.
Thoughtbottle is banned.
Candle of Invocation is not banned, but will get you eaten by the Hounds.
Nightsticks do not stack.
Turn attempts or similar from multiples of the same item are considered unnamed bonuses from the same source, and thus do not stack.



Skills :


Caster Level from UMD checks caps at 20 for our purposes.
Diplomancy and its ilk are GM-adjudicated rather than running off the provided tables.
Intimidate and its results are not mind-affecting.




Good luck!
Oh and bring a shovel in your inventories.


Submitted Sheets are reviewed by:
Sofawall
T.G. Oskar
Claudius Maximus

[Doc Roc]

The Hall Of Honor

Vader fell to the ineffably accurate Sheriff of Moddingham.
Talic surrendered in the face Sallera's persistence, and fled as the fog claimed Sallera.
Aethernox was struck down by Saph's mastery of the Sublime Way
Yahzi defeated Olo, though many of his skeletons were crushed.
In a rematch, a burst of fire from the downed Olo brought Yahzi to a burning fate.
Imperial Specter conceded after Imhotep collapsed the arena by disintegrating load-bearing columns.
Level 1 sharnian and Olo fought it out, but magic was no match for arrows.
After a slight mishap, Olo faced Memalato and Water Penguin 43 and brought them under his control.
9mm cut down Lv1 Sharnian with swings that he couldn't see.
Olo got block-rocked by Talic's hulking hurler.

Kabol, by Lvl 1 Sharnian was the first character to force a run-time ban.
Alita, by Jemini Zero, keeps getting broken and rebuilt. JZ is commended for forcing three separate run-time bans.
9MM forced a pre-match nerf of splitting.





Dungeon Entrance, Instance One (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6326126#post6326126)

Dungeon Entrance, Instance Two (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6396497#post6396497)

ToS: The Monkening, a special dungeoncrawl. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116095)



Battles:

Munchlord and Eurus

Pharaoh's fist and wykydtron VS ozgun92 + melamoto! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114173)

Vader and Archer

Yahzi Vs. Olo_Demonsbane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6381627#post6381627)

Talic vs Sallera (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114175)

Saph vs. Aethernox (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115745)

Ratflail Vs Aethernox (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116261)

Olo Vs Lvl 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116717)

9mm Vs Level 1 Sharnian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117340)

Talic V. Olo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117703)

Saph vs Imperial Spectre (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117315)



Arena Referees are:
Sofawall
Vicerious
Claudius Maximus


We honor Talic's contributions to the health of the forums. Hail the victorious fallen!

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Hey, can I join?

[Doc Roc]

Yes, find yourself a friend or foe to 1v1 in the opening arena and we'll see how this goes down. :)

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Will anyone be my friend? Enemy? Frenemy? Please?

Edit: And I'll IM or PM you a sheet soon, k?

[Collin152]

I hereby grant this thread acknowledgement of Collin. I have already posted in the thread in the proper forum, but I would like to take this time to acknowledge the worthwhileness of joining this game--assuming you're not trying a monk build, anyways, in which case I advise you not to waste time, but people, I recommend you join in.

[Yahzi]

1. How do you calculate stats?

2. Leadership? Believe it or not, I have a use for 1st level followers.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

28 point buy for stats, or so the DM said.

Oooh, a minionmancer.

[Doc Roc]

Let me go ahead and re-ban leadership. :)

[Yahzi]

Let me go ahead and re-ban leadership. :)
Ack, my bad, sorry. I missed the text that was centered...

[Doc Roc]

I just added it, actually. I'm ten ninjas. :)

[Nohwl]

what about undead leadership?

[ZeroNumerous]

Or thrallherd?

[Adumbration]

Mindraped Solars?

Just kidding, just kidding :p

[Doc Roc]

No thralls for you, I am afraid. Though my judgment lapsed momentarily, those are back on the list where they belong. PhaedrusXY has made me eminently aware of why those are just a little.... Too Much. Even by my standards.

Mind Raping solars... Well, if you're willing to run that as a mini-session with me first, and willing to accept my particular happy-fun-times variant of a celestial fire-team as an opponent... It's still not leadership, but I'm not sure it achieves much that planar binding\ally doesn't. I recommend you use those instead.

[dspeyer]

As long as we're listing leadership loopholes, what about draconic mount and draconic familiar?

[Doc Roc]

Draconic Mount And Familiar relied primarily on dragon cohort.
They're not considered too terrible, as these things go, since you need class features to make them go, and both classes are feat starved.

[wykydtron]

I'll have my character sheets up soon.

[Curmudgeon]

Questions:
All prepared casters start with at minimum one spell scribed per level.1) If a (Cloistered) Cleric has Scribe Scroll, can they get those scribed onto scrolls?

No LA above +1.
Buy-off allowed.2) So how does this work? I.e., what XP total do you start with -- 78,000 (the minimum for level 13), 90,999 (the maximum), or something in between?

3) What about Traits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm)? Flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm)?

4) Are you sticking to the favored class and multiclassing XP cost rules?

[Emy]

I've never participated in one of these contests before, but I think I'll throw something together.

Edit: if only the location weren't ravenloft

[Lord_Gareth]

I so want in. Quick questions:

- I've played an awakened skeleton before. Most DMs find it as LA 1; would you be willing to allow that as my PC?

- Is homebrew material (subject to your approval, of course) permitted?

My current idea is an awakened skeleton wizard, though I might also go with a barbarian/rogue, a homebrew race (if you allow any), or my Harrowed (if you allow them).

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Other PCs keep out
Imhotep (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=26191)

[Eloel]

A few questions before I get creating a char sheet.

Are all sources open?
# All WotC books allowed barring contraindication in the rules provided below.

Got my answer after rereading.


Will we get to 'rest' (thus getting our HP/spells/whatever to reset) before we are released into the dungeon?
Can we buff prior to the battles? (any buffs? only 24h? only 8h+?)
What's the arena size?
Can we use more than 1 character?
What about psionics/magic transparency?

And lastly
Anyone wanna be my enemy?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Unusual question...

Are character pairings allowed? As in, is a 2v2 battle acceptable, if those characters then fight at as a team throughout the exercise?

[Eurus]

If you play a +1 LA race and buy it off, do you start with 12 or 13 class levels?

[Nohwl]

how much time will there be between fights?

[Melamoto]

I don't own the Ravenloft setting. Is there anything important about it that i'd need to know to enter this?

[wykydtron]

Alright I've almost got my character ready. If anyone's looking for partner/enemy then just PM me.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Alright I've almost got my character ready. If anyone's looking for partner/enemy then just PM me.

Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries!

[Tokiko Mima]

If you play a +1 LA race and buy it off, do you start with 12 or 13 class levels?

Exactly, and if it was a +2 LA race and you bought it down to +0 LA, would it then qualify since it has no LA at all at ECL 13?

[Starbuck_II]

Does Lightning Maces + Aptitude Keen Scimitars count as an infinite loop?

(If I need to explain I will in spoiler).

OP read if confused.

Basically Aptitude allows a scimitar to count as a mace to use Lightning Mace from Complete warrior.
Lightning Maces allows extra attack when ever roll Critical threat (15-20)
Which means assuming I hit: 25% chance of getting extra attack whenever I attack.


It won't be infinite because I'm unlikely to get that lucky, but it could go on a bit.

[wykydtron]

Alright, Pharoh's Fist, I'd be glad to join you.

Edit: Also I'm still confused. Is a LA +1 race allowed too go all the way to level 13? Or are they restricted to level 12?

Edit2: HOw should I put up my character sheet? I'm using mythweavers but it never seems to open right.

[Melamoto]

I may be up for an ally with someone, PM me if interested. Don't get your hopes up too much, i'm not that optimized, just built for fun and combat control. Also, he doesn't have any Ravenloft rules applied, as I don't know what they are. If anyone can tell me, i'll make appropriate changes.
On a completely unrelated subject, anyone with low Wis and Will Saves wanna be enemies?

[Doc Roc]

Does Lightning Maces + Aptitude Keen Scimitars count as an infinite loop?

(If I need to explain I will in spoiler).

OP read if confused.

Basically Aptitude allows a scimitar to count as a mace to use Lightning Mace from Complete warrior.
Lightning Maces allows extra attack when ever roll Critical threat (15-20)
Which means assuming I hit: 25% chance of getting extra attack whenever I attack.


It won't be infinite because I'm unlikely to get that lucky, but it could go on a bit.


I have a build of this that goes properly infinite. This version as written here, while exploitive and powerful, is allowed.

[Doc Roc]

Alright, Pharoh's Fist, I'd be glad to join you.

Edit: Also I'm still confused. Is a LA +1 race allowed too go all the way to level 13? Or are they restricted to level 12?

Edit2: HOw should I put up my character sheet? I'm using mythweavers but it never seems to open right.

Please PM me a link to a mythweaver's sheet.

You may buy it off, as per UA buy-off rules. As you will gain xp from the opening battle, you will begin the dungeon at level 13 proper, but the opening fight will see you 1k XP off from being level 13.

[Doc Roc]

I don't own the Ravenloft setting. Is there anything important about it that i'd need to know to enter this?

Don't try to planeshift out. It will not be a rewarding experience.
No effect can overcome this, so don't bother trying. I just set it in ravenloft for the sake of flavor. The dungeon will be empty of creatures excluding your fellow players.

[Doc Roc]

Is homebrew material (subject to your approval, of course) permitted?


Awaken as a spell is banned, but we can talk about your character's race in specific. Note that undead are not immune to MA abilities. Homebrew is never permitted. I apologize, but it's just a huge nest of woes.

[Lord_Gareth]

Alright! With several questions now answered by PM, I'd like announce the formation of Team Elrissa-Vici, a partnership between myself and Djinn-In-Tonic. Are there any teams who would like to face us for the opener?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Wykydtron, want to go up against them?

[wykydtron]

Sounds good. This should be fun. I'll send you a copy of my characters. Assuming everything's alright with them.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Have seen your character. Why VoP?

[Starbuck_II]

Have seen your character. Why VoP?

Maybe he worries we might dispel them. After all, dispeled gear changes a mighty warrior into as weaker one for a few rounds.

[Eurus]

Or just because it's fun. :smalltongue:

[wykydtron]

I went VoP for two reasons. One; this is the first characer I've made over level 1 and so I have no idea what equipment to buy and two; any and all equipment I have becomes useless when I wildshape. So I figure why not? If you think of something I should be doing better just let me know, I'm rather new at this.

[Starbuck_II]

I went VoP for two reasons. One; this is the first characer I've made over level 1 and so I have no idea what equipment to buy and two; any and all equipment I have becomes useless when I wildshape. So I figure why not? If you think of something I should be doing better just let me know, I'm rather new at this.

Well, you could buy mutiple Wilding Clasp pg 190 (assuming you have magic item Compendruim) (4K each): they let you carry over gear (not weapons/armor) to Wild Shaped form (still functioning if could be used: such as need fingers for rings, arm for bracers, etc so snakes can't use rings).

Wild armor (DMG) lets you bring armor in, but you would do better to buy a Monk's belt (Wis to AC and +1 more).

Although, a Druid with VOP isn't as disadvantaged as others due to ablity to access flight through magic (main drawback of VoP).

[jcsw]

I don't suppose Illumnian (Krau) cheese is allowed?

[Doc Roc]

Depends on how satisfied I am with your early entry kungfu, and if you give me a nice backstory. This, unlike the test of might, may have a serious role-playing element after the initial 1v1.

[Lord_Gareth]

I'm probably swapping over to Psion after some issues involving the human body's inability to hold siginificant numbers of spells. Team Elrissa-Vici is still on.

[Doc Roc]

I hope you hate psi-crystals, then. :: gentle grin ::

[Lord_Gareth]

Eh, I never quite figured out how to aquire one anyway. All I know is that killing one really pisses off and/or weakens its master.

[Starbuck_II]

Eh, I never quite figured out how to aquire one anyway. All I know is that killing one really pisses off and/or weakens its master.

Nope, Psi Crystals are immortal*.
Beyond that they have Hardness (shouldn't be dying much since Hardness lowers energy attacks damage as wll as physical ones: Cold deals 1/4th damage before saves/applying hardness and fire is a 1/3rd).

(*As in don't stay dead, customer service says you get a dead one back for free, the next day is common houserule because not mentioned in the book. I use the term like the show Highlander the Quickening. Sure they die, but they just come right back.)

Familiars are the ones that cause XP penalty if dead.

[Doc Roc]

I generally rule that you need a new hunk of crystal, at least, to shape... but..

[Pharaoh's Fist]

So, no criticism of my build, oh wonderful DM?

[Lord_Gareth]

*Doesn't really care, as he intends on knocking the master of the crystal out and then throttling them to death*

[Doc Roc]

So, no criticism of my build, oh wonderful DM?

Your kung fu is strong. :)

[Eurus]

A question: if a spell requires an attack roll, can you take a -4 penalty to do nonlethal damage? I ask because there doesn't seem to be any way to use a nonlethal Eldritch Blast...

[Doc Roc]

There is, to my knowledge, no way to do such a thing.

VoPeace is really. really. rough.

[Eurus]

I just need Nonviolence for the extra +4 to my DCs. XD

That's irritating, though.

[Starbuck_II]

Now all I need is an opponent. Anyone willing to fight me when time comes. :smallbiggrin:

[Doc Roc]

Collin has offered to be your murder-mate.

[Eloel]

A few questions before I get creating a char sheet.

Are all sources open?
# All WotC books allowed barring contraindication in the rules provided below.

Got my answer after rereading.


Will we get to 'rest' (thus getting our HP/spells/whatever to reset) before we are released into the dungeon?
Can we buff prior to the battles? (any buffs? only 24h? only 8h+?)
What's the arena size?
Can we use more than 1 character?
What about psionics/magic transparency?

And lastly
Anyone wanna be my enemy?

-------

You skipped my questions, can I get them answered?

[Doc Roc]

A few questions before I get creating a char sheet.

Are all sources open?
# All WotC books allowed barring contraindication in the rules provided below.

Got my answer after rereading.


Will we get to 'rest' (thus getting our HP/spells/whatever to reset) before we are released into the dungeon?
Can we buff prior to the battles? (any buffs? only 24h? only 8h+?)
What's the arena size?
Can we use more than 1 character?
What about psionics/magic transparency?

And lastly
Anyone wanna be my enemy?

-------

You skipped my questions, can I get them answered?


Yes, I am sorry. I am going to be putting answers to most of them in the main post in a couple of hours.

You may not use more than one unless you like potentially killing yourself. The dungeon is not RP-free. You will have an indirect opportunity to rest prior to the dungeon proper. The rest will end up in da first post in a couple hours.

[Eloel]

Last question before I'm completely in, is Mind's Eye web enhancement (WotC) acceptable?

[Doc Roc]

It certainly is, presuming you run it by me or a set of my peers first. :)
I'ven't seen anything too broken from mind's eye. Mind you, fusion is ba-ba-ba-annnned.

[Eloel]

Full first level, average afterwards for hit points, right?

[Doc Roc]

Naturally.

[Doc Roc]

Fancy first post rules update with the schema for the arena portion.

[Eloel]

You may opt to have me randomly generate an arena.
You may opt to have prepared for the encounter in general terms.

Anyone wanna fight me under those 2 options?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

For the sake of expediency, I motion that my group has the DM choose.

[Melamoto]

If I go solo, will I only face solo opponents, or is there a good chance of facing a team of 2 in the initial fight?
Also, is it possible to surrender the initial fight?

[Eloel]

Melamoto, wanna team up?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

You shall not face a team of 2 as one person. That would be grossly unfair.

[Eloel]

If the enemy team starts close enough to each other, I'll happily face 3-4 :P

[Melamoto]

If you all start off in a bunched up group together with me having the surprise round, then i'm fine.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

And maybe I'll be invisible while we're at it.

[Eloel]

Might not make much difference if he/I/we have See Invisibility...

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Might not make much difference if he/I/we have See Invisibility...

I can cast Invisible Invisibility.

Yo, Dawg, I heard you liked to be Invisible, so we put Invisibility in your Invisibility so you can be invisible while you be invisible.

[Eloel]

And I can cast True Seeing. Duh.

Also, we're now teamed with Melamoto

Any pair wanna die in our hands?

[quick_comment]

How does the change to the wizard schools interact with master specialist and the phbii variants?

[Doc Roc]

Master specialist allows you to pick either/or for abjurantment ;) , as do the PHBII variants. This makes abjuration and enchantment notably more powerful. Specifics will be up later. It does make specializing much harder to pick your schools for, though, hopefully.

[Eloel]

Did you ever answer the question on flaws/traits?

[Doc Roc]

They are not on the ban list, but I'll go add them to the allow list.

[Eloel]

Is there a limit on how many we can take? Or, or, can we just go through the list taking them all, effectively getting infinite feats?

[quick_comment]

Master specialist allows you to pick either/or for abjurantment ;) , as do the PHBII variants. This makes abjuration and enchantment notably more powerful. Specifics will be up later. It does make specializing much harder to pick your schools for, though, hopefully.

Does abrupt jaunt stay with conjuration? Since teleportation isnt conjuration anymore, it doesnt make much sense.

[Doc Roc]

Point. I may need to disallow those variants. What's your thought? It'd be cool to give people a reason to take evocation, but...

[Doc Roc]

Is there a limit on how many we can take? Or, or, can we just go through the list taking them all, effectively getting infinite feats?

As said, the allow list now specifies. :)

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Is there a limit on how many we can take? Or, or, can we just go through the list taking them all, effectively getting infinite feats?

HOUNDS!!!

Two flaws.

[quick_comment]

Point. I may need to disallow those variants. What's your thought? It'd be cool to give people a reason to take evocation, but...

You could just add evocation to divination as "schools that cannot be banned"

It makes thematic sense too, since evocation is manipulating raw magical energy, which is not something I would expect a wizard to be able to go without.

[Doc Roc]

I could see that, but I also understand weezards who are like raw-energy-naooooooo-noooo-naoooo.


I'll think some about the fate of abrupt jaunt.

[Eloel]

My character is completely ready with the flaws/trait and the 2 feats added.
So, anyone wanna fight our pair? :P

[Melamoto]

I'm ready to fight when any other pair is.

[archerpwr]

I'd actually be willing to take a 2 on 1.

[Eloel]

Believe me, you'd not want us

[archerpwr]

Believe me, you'd not want us

Oh, I'm not saying that I'd be sure to win. I'm just saying that I'd have a chance.

[Eloel]

I'll go on and bet you won't even get to act...

[archerpwr]

I'll go on and bet you won't even get to act...

OK, now we're talking some trash. Y'all willing to do a 2v1? Because I'm willing to bet that I'll take down at least one of y'all.

[Eloel]

how many buff rounds do you want?
(and what arena would you want?)

[archerpwr]

how many buff rounds do you want?
(and what arena would you want?)

Zero buff rounds, just all day buffs. Start out of LoS with each other, so that whoever detects the others first gets a surprise round. If the person that detects first manages to avoid detection, they will of course have buff rounds for as long as they can avoid detection.

Sound fair?

[Eloel]

A single buff round sounds more fair? :P

[archerpwr]

A single buff round sounds more fair? :P

Nope. If you're instagibbed, you're instagibbed. Just like in a campaign. If you EARN a buff round, you get one. If not, tough luck.

[Eloel]

Are we using GitP as our medium for battling?

[archerpwr]

Are we using GitP as our medium for battling?
I'd prefer to use mythweavers. It has tools to embed all the rolls that can't be cheated at all. And it's prettier.

[Eloel]

Sounds fair. I'm also a MW'er.

[Melamoto]

If it's any consolation, you may not die. If I feel like it.

[archerpwr]

If it's any consolation, you may not die. If I feel like it.

:D

Who's going to DM? I should be able to make up a sheet after work today and send it to whoever.

[Eloel]

Oh, I thought you had the sheet and we were going to do it now...
If this'll be official, obviously Tide will DM. If not, we can ask him to :)

[archerpwr]

Oh, I thought you had the sheet and we were going to do it now...
If this'll be official, obviously Tide will DM. If not, we can ask him to :)

No, just a plan. I don't actually have 13th level characters just lying around :P

I just need to actually STAT the character. That's all. Just gimme a day or so. I work in an hour, but only have a four hour shift so can make the sheet on MW after that. For reference, my handle there is "ubernoob".

[Melamoto]

I'd rather this not be an official fight. I don't mean to sound cocky, or overconfident or anything, but i'd rather get xp for 2 people than 1 in the actual Test of Spite. I'm not saying we will just plain win, but on the pretty good chance we do, i'd like to get my money's worth. Tide might DM it for us anyway though.

[munchlord]

I'm teamed with Eurus....

[Pharaoh's Fist]

We need a list of teams. Everyone PM me your teams, or if you are going solo, and I'll compile one.

--------------
List:

Munchlord and Eurus

Pharaoh-Boy and wykydtron

Lord Garath and Djinn-in-Tonic

Starbuck_II versus Colin

ozgun92 + melamoto

[Vader]

I'll be tagging in with Archer, he brought me over from MythWeavers.

[Eurus]

I'm teamed with Eurus....

Yup, and my character should be more or less finished (at ECL 12, one thousand experience away from level 13).

[Starbuck_II]

Pharaoh's Fist': For your List-
I am solo versus Colin in first fight.

[Doc Roc]

It is noted. When is good for you, Star Buck?

[Starbuck_II]

Pretty much any afternoon unless I have something scheduled (like buying a father's day or dog's birthday gift or somethingk, still need to get around to doing that).
So Noon-till 8 probably. Oh except Sunday: keep it holy and all.

Not doing much this week but playing video games(Almost finished: Force Unleashed and Mass Effect).

[Doc Roc]

Darn, I was hoping to do it tomorrow.

[Eloel]

We are
ozgun92 + melamoto
Add us to the list :)

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Darn, I was hoping to do it tomorrow.

My brutal Teutonic efficiency inconviniences you once again!


So Noon-till 8 probably. Oh except Sunday: keep it holy and all.
We're playing Dungeons and Dragons

[Vader]

Okay, two things.

1) Mindblank, what does CL check stuff even mean? Does that only apply to Divination? Or does Mindblank no longer protect against Dominate Person all the time?

2) "All prepared casters start with at minimum one spell scribed per level." What does that mean? Does it mean we start with spells in our book? Does it mean we have to have a scroll for every level that we can cast? Do we get those scrolls for free? Or do we have to pay XP and WBL for them? Does that rule make all Wizards automatically level 12 characters?

What about if you are a prepared caster who doesn't have scribe scroll and so can't scribe a scroll, like Druid/Cleric/Wizard who traded out for improved Init?

3) You school fixes are all terrible and detrimental to the game. Thank goodness this is a PvP thing, so I can just build a non specialist and ignore them. But they are all still bad. enchantment and evocation actually have good things that people give up when they specialize elsewhere, to make it so that for a piddly extra spell at each level they have to give up huge swaths like that? And you do know they give up two schools?

Seriously, I have no idea why you hate specialization so much. Also, Necromancy is really really easy to give up, you should combine it with Evocation so that no one at all can ban two schools without sucking.

[quick_comment]

3) You school fixes are all terrible and detrimental to the game. Thank goodness this is a PvP thing, so I can just build a non specialist and ignore them. But they are all still bad. enchantment and evocation actually have good things that people give up when they specialize elsewhere, to make it so that for a piddly extra spell at each level they have to give up huge swaths like that? And you do know they give up two schools?

Seriously, I have no idea why you hate specialization so much. Also, Necromancy is really really easy to give up, you should combine it with Evocation so that no one at all can ban two schools without sucking.

Evocation and enchantment are the two most commonly banned schools. Enchantment because it is utterly useless once mind blank is available, and evocation because conjuration has better blasting, along with teleportation, summoning and control spells. The few useful evocation spells (forcecage, contingency, wall of force, etc) can all be replicated through shadow spells.

[Doc Roc]

Name four spells in enchantment that are really important and are not mind-affecting.

Evocation certainly does, except it's normally easy to emulate the few missing pieces like contingency using shadow evoc\shades\etc.

If you have a better system than mine, I'd love to see it. That's not sarcasm at all, actually. Specialization is a problem because it is a free lunch that makes one of the most powerful classes more powerful. I understand if you feel like I lack the chops to hack at this, but I'd prefer if you used a little less vitriol.

Finally, necromancy is not particularly easy to give up, as you lose things like enervation and favor of the martyr among other things. Remember, this is an all-books game, where necromancy is somewhat better than in pure core.

The school that really needs a nerf is transmutation, but I couldn't think of any quick rule based attack on it.

----------

You'll notice it says a minimum of one spell scribed to your book per level. Wizards get more by default, and casters that can't use them just ignore the effect. It's to fix things like chameleon who RAW are unplayable for this otherwise in a lot of respects.

---------

It means that you don't just automatically become immune to all divination. It does protect against things like domination, just not as well. I was tired of metafaculty being the only viable option.

[Eloel]

Tide, when can we start a battle?

[quick_comment]

I would keep necromancy even if enervation were the only spell in the entire school.

[Doc Roc]

Tide, when can we start a battle?

When all four people involved PM me their free time slots for the next five days. :)

[quick_comment]

How are you handling metamagic stacking?

Does a maximized, split enervation deal 1d4+4 or 8 negative levels?

Does a twinned sonic substituted fire ball deal 15d6 fire and 15d6 sonic or 30d6 sonic?

[Doc Roc]

I will say I don't like the merge of abj and ench, but I couldn't do better off the top(ish) of my head.

[Doc Roc]

Twin and split both say they produce identical copies. Though it pains me, RAW allows full stack-a-lackin'

[Vader]

Name four spells in enchantment that are really important and are not mind-affecting.

Evocation certainly does, except it's normally easy to emulate the few missing pieces like contingency using shadow evoc\shades\etc.

If you have a better system than mine, I'd love to see it. That's not sarcasm at all, actually. Specialization is a problem because it is a free lunch that makes one of the most powerful classes more powerful. I understand if you feel like I lack the chops to hack at this, but I'd prefer if you used a little less vitriol.

Finally, necromancy is not particularly easy to give up, as you lose things like enervation and favor of the martyr among other things. Remember, this is an all-books game, where necromancy is somewhat better than in pure core.

The school that really needs a nerf is transmutation, but I couldn't think of any quick rule based attack on it.

No one ever bans any other schools. Because no other schools are bannable, and now no two schools at all are.

You made specialization completely untenable. My solution is to allow Wizards to specialize. At all.

[Talic]

Is it possible to join both as a player and as a DM?

[Talic]

Twin and split both say they produce identical copies. Though it pains me, RAW allows full stack-a-lackin'

Precedent: Note that Maximize and empower do not stack. They both produce added effects based on the original, unmodified spell. These two effects are additive, but the empowered portion is not subject to maximization, and the maximized portion is not subject to empowering.

Following this logic (as well as intent of the general rule that two doublings equal a tripling), splitting wouldn't be twinned, and twinning wouldn't be split.

The original spell would receive both effects, so, as an example:

A split twinned enervation would:
Split a normal enervation spell
then Twin a normal enervation spell
Creating an effective 3 enervation beams, rather than 4. (normal, split, and twin)

In this way, the two doublings equal a tripling.

[Vader]

Precedent: Note that Maximize and empower do not stack. They both produce added effects based on the original, unmodified spell. These two effects are additive, but the empowered portion is not subject to maximization, and the maximized portion is not subject to empowering.

Following this logic (as well as intent of the general rule that two doublings equal a tripling), splitting wouldn't be twinned, and twinning wouldn't be split.

The original spell would receive both effects, so, as an example:

A split twinned enervation would:
Split a normal enervation spell
then Twin a normal enervation spell
Creating an effective 3 enervation beams, rather than 4. (normal, split, and twin)

In this way, the two doublings equal a tripling.

And that's all crazy talk because the actual rules explicitly state the Empower Maximize ruling to overrule what would otherwise be the case, that the metafeats must be applied in order and would retroactively effect each other.

If you Twin a spell, you do not Twin part of the spell, you twin the actual spell.

[Talic]

And that's all crazy talk because the actual rules explicitly state the Empower Maximize ruling to overrule what would otherwise be the case, that the metafeats must be applied in order and would retroactively effect each other.

If you Twin a spell, you do not Twin part of the spell, you twin the actual spell.

And again, we fall back to:

If there are multiple rulings that can be made, and one is clearly unbalanced, and the other creates a standardized, less-unbalanced stable power level for the ability... Why would one choose the obviously unbalanced interpretation?

That seems like "crazy talk" to me.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

And again, we fall back to:

If there are multiple rulings that can be made, and one is clearly unbalanced, and the other creates a standardized, less-unbalanced stable power level for the ability... Why would one choose the obviously unbalanced interpretation?


Because then you can buy partially charged wands.

[Vader]

And again, we fall back to:

If there are multiple rulings that can be made, and one is clearly unbalanced, and the other creates a standardized, less-unbalanced stable power level for the ability... Why would one choose the obviously unbalanced interpretation?

That seems like "crazy talk" to me.

Again, we fall back to:

1) There are not multiple rulings you can make. There is one ruling, and an infinite number of houserules, including the one that you proposed. Also the one where casting spells with metamagic effects automatically kills characters, if you hate them for whatever reason.
2) The actual ruling is not clearly unbalance, it is not even unbalanced, and the other is just a slap in the face to several types of characters. And since the person who actually has the capacity to houserule didn't, there is not much reason for you to push for a houserule that conveniently doesn't effect the type of character you wanted to play.

[Talic]

Again, we fall back to:

1) There are not multiple rulings you can make. There is one ruling, and an infinite number of houserules, including the one that you proposed. Also the one where casting spells with metamagic effects automatically kills characters, if you hate them for whatever reason.Incorrect. The reason games such as this need mediators, and need intervention, is that sometimes issues are not addressed by the rules, and such vagarities create imbalance.
For example, if I get reduced to -7 hp, unconscious, and get knocked off the side of a boat, and begin drowning, after 1 round, by the one ruling you propose, I've healed 6 hp.

Without the "houserule" that drowning cannot heal you, it will. The "one ruling" isn't intended to be absolute in practice. It's commonly used as a benchmark in theoretical CharOp, but such things are thought exercises. They're not intended to commonly see play. A responsible and reasonable DM is expected to take such things, and run them through a paper shredder.

2) The actual ruling is not clearly unbalance, it is not even unbalanced, and the other is just a slap in the face to several types of characters.
Yes, it is. The only characters that are stacking two high cost metamagic feats, are those who specialize in metamagic reduction. Frankly, those could use a slap in the face.

The CR system is designed to expend 25% of your resources to overcome an equivalent CR. When a single character can, with one spell slot, overcome that challenge easily, with a 22 negative level enervate, it circumvents the CR system. This creates an imbalance. Now, it can be remediated with a simple ruling, or it can be remediated with character death through hounds.

I'm relatively sure 1 shotting equivalent CR challenges will quickly result in the latter, so please, consider carefully what the consequences of the argument you make are, before you ask to take things into the hard and fast world of theoretical CharOp. This system does have checks and balances for those who pursue the path of the Munchkin.

EDIT: PLEASE NOTE: This is a system with houserules. To disregard a proposed addition to that based on balance and precedent, is folly. The OP already explicitly stated several houserules. So calling something one, even if it is true, does not automatically disqualify it as crazy talk. There is precedent in this very system for rules variants (Read: houserules). Thus, to assume this exists in a RAW vacuum, free from the constraints of balance and mitigation of such things? That is crazy talk.

[Doc Roc]

I will agree that metamagic is particularly powerful. However, MM stackers is one of my personal specialties, any my experience has been that they are not as terrifying as they are made out to be. Dangerous, yes, but far from the most abusive approach.

Much of the problem here is that people will often lack the capacity to counterspell in this dungeon, or to countercast. When the first MM specialist is submitted, I'll spend some serious time thinking about how precisely they work. My feeling, right now is that to remove proper MM stacking invalidates an entire archetype. I'ven't invalidated chargers or builds like the Ruby Shadow, so it sits a little heavy with me to do so. However, there is the question of efficiency. I'm going to spend some time thinking about this.

I think the best option may be to articulate a comprehensive schema for the limits of stacking price reduction.. At 13th, there are four or five MM stacking builds, including one of my own, that are viable. I'll take a look and see if I can make sure that Mailmen still work, without accidentally insuring their malevolent dominion.

[Doc Roc]

Have laid down some basic and limited fixes for MM issues, effectively insuring that its efficiency curve is not as steep.

[Starbuck_II]

For example, if I get reduced to -7 hp, unconscious, and get knocked off the side of a boat, and begin drowning, after 1 round, by the one ruling you propose, I've healed 6 hp.

Without the "houserule" that drowning cannot heal you, it will. The "one ruling" isn't intended to be absolute in practice.

Wait, we aren't using the drowning rules? Darn, I was planning on drowning myself when I was dying to be healed. :smallbiggrin:


It's commonly used as a benchmark in theoretical CharOp, but such things are thought exercises. They're not intended to commonly see play. A responsible and reasonable DM is expected to take such things, and run them through a paper shredder.
Yes, it is. The only characters that are stacking two high cost metamagic feats, are those who specialize in metamagic reduction. Frankly, those could use a slap in the face.



Oh come on, only Empower and Maximixe are separate.
You know it. Customer Service knows it (100% of time I note) and the Sage knows it.
Sure, we could change the rules , but why?
Although, I do not like dying from enervation so we could just houserule that aspect. Tis a little cheap.


Oh and Pharoah's Fist: Everything can be done in his glory. Paul said to seek after every good thing. I got to go and all, but yeah, later.

[Doc Roc]

I will be buffing absorption and spell turning effects slightly, which should help. Twinned spells still count as one spell for the purposes of countering, so I believe they still count as one spell for the purposes of effects like ring of spell battle.

The issue is that the DnD meta-game is well-known. If you intend to swim upstream, you should bring a steamboat.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Oh and Pharoah's Fist: Everything can be done in his glory. Paul said to seek after every good thing. I got to go and all, but yeah, later.

... the hell?

[quick_comment]

No one ever bans any other schools. Because no other schools are bannable, and now no two schools at all are.

You made specialization completely untenable. My solution is to allow Wizards to specialize. At all.

Specialist wizards should have to give up something. It shouldnt just be a free extra spell slot.

Right now nearly every wizard specializes in conjuration or transmutation, banning evocation and enchantment OR takes elven racial sub levels.

[Talic]

I will agree that metamagic is particularly powerful. However, MM stackers is one of my personal specialties, any my experience has been that they are not as terrifying as they are made out to be. Dangerous, yes, but far from the most abusive approach.

Much of the problem here is that people will often lack the capacity to counterspell in this dungeon, or to countercast. When the first MM specialist is submitted, I'll spend some serious time thinking about how precisely they work. My feeling, right now is that to remove proper MM stacking invalidates an entire archetype. I'ven't invalidated chargers or builds like the Ruby Shadow, so it sits a little heavy with me to do so. However, there is the question of efficiency. I'm going to spend some time thinking about this.

I think the best option may be to articulate a comprehensive schema for the limits of stacking price reduction.. At 13th, there are four or five MM stacking builds, including one of my own, that are viable. I'll take a look and see if I can make sure that Mailmen still work, without accidentally insuring their malevolent dominion.
Making metamagic Additive, rather than multiplicative, doesn't invalidate the MM stacker.

A Twin, split, maximized empowered enervate will still spew out a heck of a lot of negative levels.

1d4 (Maximized = 4) + (1/2(1d4)) + 1d4 (Twin of an enervation) + 1d4 (Split of an enervation)
4 + 2d4+ 1d2 negative levels essentially. 10.5, on average.

All it does is remove the multiplicative nesting. It doesn't completely invalidate the build.

What I find odd here is that MM Stacking incantatrix easy metamagic arcane thesis cheese isn't being completely invalidated...

But wizard specialization is?

This seems to me like a case of putting the costume jewelry in the safe, and leaving the Rolex on the dresser.

[Eurus]

Incantatrix is banned already, though, and Arcane Thesis just got nerfed...

[wykydtron]

Well, me and Pharaoh's Fist are ready to fight.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

My only regret is that I will not be able to loot off of VoP corpses.

[wykydtron]

Ouch, words hurt too.:smallfrown:

Just kidding, man.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

They are VoP! You are VoP!

What am I supposed to do, scalp you people?

[Vader]

The CR system is designed to expend 25% of your resources to overcome an equivalent CR. When a single character can, with one spell slot, overcome that challenge easily, with a 22 negative level enervate, it circumvents the CR system. This creates an imbalance. Now, it can be remediated with a simple ruling, or it can be remediated with character death through hounds.

I'm relatively sure 1 shotting equivalent CR challenges will quickly result in the latter, so please, consider carefully what the consequences of the argument you make are, before you ask to take things into the hard and fast world of theoretical CharOp. This system does have checks and balances for those who pursue the path of the Munchkin.

You know what other single spell can defeat an appropriate CR challenge? Finger of Death. We should ban that too.

You can't do 22 negative levels. Please propose any build at all that can Twin Split Maximize an Enervation. 1) Incantatrix is banned. 2) Easy Metamagic is Dragon Magazine, and therefore banned. There is no way to do 22 negative levels, and even if there was you could easily prepare deathward.

{Scrubbed}


EDIT: PLEASE NOTE: This is a system with houserules. To disregard a proposed addition to that based on balance and precedent, is folly. The OP already explicitly stated several houserules. So calling something one, even if it is true, does not automatically disqualify it as crazy talk. There is precedent in this very system for rules variants (Read: houserules). Thus, to assume this exists in a RAW vacuum, free from the constraints of balance and mitigation of such things? That is crazy talk.

I am not claiming that we should ignore your proposed houserule because it is a houserule, I am proposing we should not use it because it is a bad houserule. {scrubbed}

[Pharaoh's Fist]

You know what other single spell can defeat an appropriate CR challenge? Finger of Death. We should ban that too.

Doesn't that offer a save?

[Vader]

Doesn't that offer a save?

As opposed to require 4 successful ranged touch attacks, and using a 13th level slot pre Arcane Thesis Nerf (currently requires a level 16 slot).

If I heightened it to a 13th level slot, I don't think you'd make the save on Finger of Death.

[archerpwr]

I'm out. {Scrubbed}

For Reference: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=131285

[woodenbandman]

Now if I could find some time I'd totally be all over this.

[Doc Roc]

Um... I can do 8d4 negative levels by 13.

Here's my blaster build.

Beth
7 year old Human + Draconic Template, needs LA buyoff
Uses wizard and Halruuan Elder, not to mention an adorable lisp.
You can use sorcerer instead, but it will throw the leveling schema off unless you use sanctum spell to qual for incanatrix. Obviously, you can freely reduce the amount of halruaan elder taken since you don't need to struggle to get a hold of practical magic by using lawyery things like I did.


1 wizard +1 + 1 +2 from flaws +scribe scroll
2 wizard
3 wizard + 1
4 wizard
5 wizard + 1
6 mindbender
7 xxxxxxx
8 halruan
9 halruan + 1
10 halruan
11 halruan
12 halruan + 1

Run-down of class features that we consider relevant:
Wizard. Seriously, can we just call being a wizard the class feature of wizards?
You'll probably want to take some cool alternative feature to replace your familiar.

Two doses of Adroit casting: One at 8th, one at 11th. Each lowers a meta-magic's adjust by one, permanently.
Signature spell lets us take practical meta-magic at 12 by selecting two third level spells to be spontaneous. You might consider the specialist wizard approach, if you feel it fits.
Flaws:
Inattentive
Vulnerable or whatever you like.

Feats in order:

Spell Thematics
Halruaan Adept
Sanctum Spell (Forgive me, Gygax)
Scribe Scroll, from wizard
Spell Focus
---------------
3rd Iron will
"purchase" via the Otyugh Hole in complete scoundrel around page 150
Retrain into split ray
From level -Metamagic school focus
--------------
5th Twin Spell
---------------
6th Mindsight
---------------
9th Arcane Thesis for Enervate
------------
12th Practical Metamagic (Twin spell) thanks to draconic and signature spells

We take adroit casting on Twin Spell and Split ray, because that's our meat and potatoes. Why no empower on the feat list? Simple. It's dirt cheap to pick up our Empowered Spell Shard (pg 96 MIC) for Enervation, which thanks to sanctum spell IS a 3rd level spell for us outside our sanctum. Don't ask, please.

Let's crunch the numbers
Empower for free:
1d4 *1.5
2d4, thank you rounding rules
(might be wrong here, if so, it's an easy fix.
A lens of ray doubling will work instead of the spell shard, and we can use spell thematics to shoot lazzzarrrsss from our eyes)
*2 * 2
8d4 negative levels per shot.

For no slot adjustment three times a day as a third level spell from a fourth level spell slot, and as a fourth level spell spell the rest of the time. The fourth level spell it's supposed to be anyway. I think. It hurts my head. A lot. This takes care of your blasting needs without even requiring evocation, and lets you focus the entire rest of your spell list on delicious, wonderful, beautiful utility. It even lets you turn a simple level one skeleton into an unstoppable tank.

Today's lesson: Never let sanctum spell in your campaign, because it does things the game rules are entirely unable to properly handle. Yay! Whee!


(From myself, as doc roc)

I can auto-pass finger of death, and most other saves are easy-peasy as well. Maybe if you were a tainted scholar, but then you'd be a freaking tainted scholar.

With some work, you could make that build into a lovely little sorceress and use arcane spellsurge or similar to go for broke. I'm not sure how much you could make things hurt, but I suspect the answer is Very Much.

[Eurus]

See... that's the kind of rules-voodoo that gives me headaches. >_>

I managed to find and understand most of the stuff in that build after a while of Googling and searching through books I didn't even know that I have, but really, if that's the base level of competence and knowledge of exploits that competitors are expected to have, then perhaps I should be either seeking help or throwing in the towel.

[Melamoto]

I know how you feel. Seeing that has made me dizzy, and left me wondering if there is much point in this if there are builds out there powerful enough to one-shot you in the first turn, probably with spells like Nerveskitter to make them go first. I understand optimization, but that just goes too far.

[Doc Roc]

Yes, as a result a number of its core components are banned or altered for this trial. It was presented as an example of why necromancy was potent and why some feats had their behavior altered.

I trust, however, that I have proven my kung fu and perhaps even my point? :)

[Eurus]

On the one hand, that's a relief, but that doesn't really change the fact that this all may well be entirely out of my league. For instance, things like using legendary locations for bonus feats which are then retrained, or taking signature spell to help meet the prerequisite for Practical Metamagic are the sort of things that I simply wouldn't even be able to come up with. I've made characters that I considered optimized in the past, but that was usually with fairly straightforward methods. This is like watching a contortionist, except with the rules; all you can think is, "that shouldn't bend that way!" :smalleek:

So, in other words, you proved your point (assuming that point was the houserules you imposed; I haven't really been paying attention. :smalltongue:), but perhaps you proved it a bit too well.

[Doc Roc]

Oh goodness, I meant to go ban magical locations, and retraining.

:P

Thanks for the reminder!

[Doc Roc]

That should be fixed. I believe beth is now thoroughly illegal.

[Yahzi]

On the one hand, that's a relief, but that doesn't really change the fact that this all may well be entirely out of my league.
I used the PHB, DMG, Complete Divine, and one feat from one other splatbook. If that's not good enough... oh well. Also, I don't even know what Mythweavers is. :smalleek:

Nonetheless, Maximilliam the Scholar (his most neutral title :smallbiggrin:) is prepared to enter the arena in search of the knowledge and treasure that this dungeon must contain to attract so many potent beings. Please make sure your loot is neatly labeled, for easy sorting.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Updated List


Munchlord and Eurus

Pharaoh-Boy and wykydtron

Lord Garath and Djinn-in-Tonic

Starbuck_II versus Colin

ozgun92 + melamoto


On the one hand, that's a relief, but that doesn't really change the fact that this all may well be entirely out of my league.
Just build a solid character. That's the spirit of the rules.

[jcsw]

Are you discriminating against gaseous characters?

---

*sigh*, I wanna try a full martial build but I'm afraid to try it in a field of casters.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Are you discriminating against gaseous characters?

---

*sigh*, I wanna try a full martial build but I'm afraid to try it in a field of casters.

Oh, I can help you there.

One word: BARBARIAN!

Three words: Tome of Battle

Either choice is a good one.

Edit: Example Barbarian (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=26256)

At 9th and 12 level, your feats can be things such as Instantanious Rage, Sunder + Combat Brute, Intimidating Rage, or other good stuff.

The properly made Barbarian is a thing to be feared.

[Talic]

Yes, as a result a number of its core components are banned or altered for this trial. It was presented as an example of why necromancy was potent and why some feats had their behavior altered.

I trust, however, that I have proven my kung fu and perhaps even my point? :)

Fair enough.

I'll begin on an ECL 13 today. Give me a few to develop. Am I developing a character or a party?

[Doc Roc]

A single ECL 13 character.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Im doing this with my Gatlin, and I am planning to face Jkoshe if he will accept...

Just throwing that out to the general public...

[Yahzi]

Edit: Example Barbarian (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=26256)

Oh, hey, thanks... when developing my character, I forgot to add the 3 stat increases. That adds up to 2 more spells!

:smallcool:

[Doc Roc]

More spells is generally good. Resting in the dungeon may be difficult.

[Talic]

Are divinely granted templates banned?

Asking because Divine Minion of Anhur allows wild shape (and thus, MoMF qualification) at level 1.

And Lolth-touched is a rather powerful template for its +1 LA (+6 str, +6 con, and a bevy of other abilities)

[Doc Roc]

MoMF allows a polymorph ability not keyed to a single shape, and is thus implicitly banned. I will go make explicit the ban on divine templates and MoMF though.

I would chastise you regarding your likely intended goal, but I do not wish to have to list my _own_ home address. :)

[Talic]

No, that wasn't my goal (I assume you mean build a character immune to damage, compulsions, and death effects), though I could. No, my character is done. I'll PM the link to you.

[Doc Roc]

One certainly could, I suppose. I've tried to limit it down... let me go fix starmantle now...

Talic, can you run the listed vs as soon as I can get people to get in touch with me?

[Talic]

I can oversee a match or three, sure. Add me in to a listed, also, if you would. Not picky about my opponent, and I'll quibble over match details such as buff time or environment when I get one.

[Doc Roc]

You are added.

[Iku Rex]

I hope these aren't already answered...

Are race and class variants from Unearthed Arcana allowed?

What do you mean by "item creation is not permitted except as per the bonus stacking\slot stacking rules in the MiC"? What can and can't a PC create?

What do you mean by "all prepared casters start with at minimum one spell scribed per level"? Free spells? What?

[Talic]

Race/Class variants are allowed.

I'm using a Class variant (actually, 2) from UA. Both were approved.

I'm guessing no combining crazy items together per DMG +50% cost rules. The only way to get multiple effects is to use the MIC method.

As for the third, I don't precisely know.

[Kurald Galain]

Fighter is banned,
I wonder why you would want to ban fighters...



Focused specialists do not exist.
Teleportation subschool is now part of the evocation school.
Enchantment and Abjuration are now one school.
This I don't really get either. Would you mind explaining why?

[Starbuck_II]

He said something about Abjuration not as good as school so he combined them (so no prohibiting both those two to be Conjur or Evoc specialist).

I am not sure why banned Fighter.

[Talic]

My thought on Fighter?

It's a splash class. People splash 2-4 levels for a few feats, and that's it. If you're focusing in Fighter, there's always another class better. But the extra feats offer more ability to unbalance other combinations.

[Wabbajack]

What do you mean by "all prepared casters start with at minimum one spell scribed per level"? Free spells? What?

Per RAW prepared spellcasters need to buy spells and scribe them in their books/whatever. He houseruled that they have one prepared spell per level they can cast for free, i.e. a 13th level wizards has 3 0th level and each one 1-7th level spell^^

[Doc Roc]

Per RAW prepared spellcasters need to buy spells and scribe them in their books/whatever. He houseruled that they have one prepared spell per level they can cast for free, i.e. a 13th level wizards has 3 0th level and each one 1-7th level spell^^

More if he leveled straight up through weeeezard, and got his free spells as per that class. But this is mostly aimed at archivists and chameleons, and a few other classes who would otherwise be disadvantaged in ways that just don't show up in real game play.


The odd school changes were to weaken specialist and provide an implicit buff to sorcerers as well as abj and ench.

You'll note, please, that undead are no longer immune to MA abilities, so please bear this in mind as your mouth waters for necropolitan templating.

[Melamoto]

Are Item Familiars and feats that are meant to be DM approved allowed?

[Starbuck_II]

When are you going to create the arenas we fight in (unless they are already made). I'd have to see what Collin wants, but I'm cool with 1 rd buff time and random arena is fine.

[Talic]

Starbuck II and Collin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6244517#post6244517), your thread is ready.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I would like to point out that merging enchantment and divination only makes Abjurant Champions incredibly strong.

[Melamoto]

Starbuck II and Collin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6244517#post6244517), your thread is ready.I would have thought they would be using Mythweavers. It's a fair bit easier imo.

[Melamoto]

Me and ozgun92 are ready for any 2v2 opponent. We can fight tomorrow at any time after 5pm GMT. We are also available late afternoons on every other day.

[wykydtron]

I don't know about pharaoh but I'm open until 3 GMT.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I'm up whenever, wherever, however, and whatever.

[Talic]

I would have thought they would be using Mythweavers. It's a fair bit easier imo.

I would have thought that since I don't personally have a mythweavers account, and I'm the only one creating threads, that they'll go where it's a fair bit easier for me to put them. :smalltongue:

[wykydtron]

I would have thought that since I don't personally have a mythweavers account, and I'm the only one creating threads, that they'll go where it's a fair bit easier for me to put them. :smalltongue:

Hahaha

Also me and Pharaoh are ready to fihgt.

[Eloel]

Rolling on MW is easier to do imho, so I'd like it to be over there myself too.

[Doc Roc]

I would like to point out that merging enchantment and divination only makes Abjurant Champions incredibly strong.

This is very true. I'll think more about this.

[Doc Roc]

Are Item Familiars and feats that are meant to be DM approved allowed?

Item familiars just got a ban listing a little before you asked. Feats that are meant to be dm approved should be.. :: hums :: maybe approved by the dm. Ask me if you want things and stuff.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Hahaha

Also me and Pharaoh are ready to fight.

You might say that it is time to duel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmCx7VA8qGA&feature=related).

[wykydtron]

Wow, I can't believe you just said that.

Anyone looking for a partner? I'll take anyone?!


No one?


Alright.:smalleek:


Edit: I was just kiding.

[Eloel]

If you find a partner, we're looking for a pair to fight with.

[Sallera]

Anyone up for a 1v1? Talic, mayhaps?

[Talic]

1v1, 2v2... I'm down for most any type of match.

[waterpenguin43]

Looking for a partner!

[Sallera]

I'll leave the arena and buff time up to you then. Doesn't much matter to me either way.

[waterpenguin43]

Wanna team up?
Me:
Druid3
Cleric3
Wavekeeper7(Stormwarck)
If not, I'll 1v1.

[Yahzi]

I am also ready. I also do not care about arena, buff, or other. I don't have an account at Mythweavers, so let me know if I need one.

I do have one question - are these arenas big enough to allow flying? I thought they were underground (hence the sobriquet "dungeon.") How high is the roof?

[waterpenguin43]

Let me go ahead and re-ban leadership. :)

Can you PLEASE re-add awaken?

[waterpenguin43]

Wow, I can't believe you just said that.

Anyone looking for a partner? I'll take anyone?!


No one?


Alright.:smalleek:


Edit: I was just kiding.

Do you want to team up?

[Yahzi]

Can you PLEASE re-add awaken?
I think he banned that because it's effectively the same as Leadership.

[Talic]

I'd prefer a 1v1, but Blarg.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Talic, can has thread plz?

[Talic]

Vs. Whom? Wyked?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Wykid and I as a team vs Lord Garath and Djinn in tonic

[Talic]

Will do, gimme a few. IRL intrudes.

[Eloel]

We're STILL looking for someone to fight with. Noone dare?

[Lord_Gareth]

Yo, calm the HELL down. Djinn and I are nowhere NEAR ready to fight, you impatient punks. I'm moving to KANSAS CITY in TWO DAYS. If you're that spoiling for a fight, you can fight someone else. In the meantime, maybe ASK the other team before going off an making a thread, aye?

Friggin' punks...

[Talic]

Talic vs Sallera (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114175) is ready.

@Lord Gareth: I encourage you to follow your own advice, and calm down. If you're not ready, matches can wait. If you don't wish to face that particular match, they can be deleted. In any case, there's little call to refer to others as punks, and the creation of a thread isn't as major an issue as you're making it to be. This thread has already had enough Mod involvement; I'd rather not give them more reasons to poke their head in here.

Regardless, best of luck on your upcoming move.

[Lord_Gareth]

Ah, my own personal quirks appear to have intruded here:

"Punks" is an emotion-nuetral statement from me, much like one's girlfriend slapping one on the back of the head gently. It's indicative of minor frustration without anger. What I WAS mad about was that a thread was made without so much as a whiff of consent from either Djinn OR myself. You might want to check that next time.

As for what match we'll be taking...eh, we'll burn that bridge when we come to it.

[Eloel]

If Team Lord Djinn doesn't want to, we'd be glad to fight Team Wykyd Pharoah.

[Talic]

It's not typically considered as such. The medium of text-on-screen is remarkably hard to gauge, with a lack of vocal inflection, body language, and the like to give meaning to statements. As such, caps is generally taken to be anger or shouting, and the use of perjoratives, such as 'impatient' and faux swears, such as 'friggin' generally lends to a more hostile interpretation.

The difficulty in translation with printed text makes it that much more important to seek clarity in what you say, to prevent misunderstandings. Either way, if you like, the thread can be removed/altered, pending a future matchup with other players.

All I'm doing is mediating matches, and creating threads on behalf of Tide. I encourage people to agree upon a match before bringing it to me, as I frankly don't have the time to go line by line through this thread to look for challenges and agreements. If a match setup is requested, I will set it up. If your opponent doesn't wish the match? Well, he/she is only obligated to matches that he/she agreed to.

[Talic]

If Team Lord Djinn doesn't want to, we'd be glad to fight Team Wykyd Pharoah.

If that's agreeable to team Wykyd Pharoah, I'll be happy to modify the thread to that.

[Doc Roc]

Having just had dinner with Pharaoh, I know he's itching for a fight. It's probably okay with him.

[Talic]

I'm a bigger fan of the 1v1 setup, as my guy isn't really a team player, when it comes to combat style.

Speaking of which, I had one of the esteemed players see fit to offer me a match. If you'd care to either GM it, or find a qualified GM to do so, I'd be appreciative.

[Doc Roc]

I am available tomorrow evening, starting at 4 PM EST. I have software and hosting capacity to handle it in real time if you would like. It's a rare opportunity for me to run PvP between two competent individuals. I can also supply a voice chat server, if you like.

I'm very grateful for all your help.

[Melamoto]

I can do the fight from 5PM GMT +0 (London Time) onwards.

[Talic]

I am available tomorrow evening, starting at 4 PM EST. I have software and hosting capacity to handle it in real time if you would like. It's a rare opportunity for me to run PvP between two competent individuals. I can also supply a voice chat server, if you like.

I'm very grateful for all your help.

Can do, and can do. I'm not sure what program you use (Ventrilo, etc), but at the very least, there can be real time.

[Melamoto]

That's alright, although you'll have to wait until 4-5PM GMT for me, which will be 5-6 hours later than 4PM EST, but if you can do it in real time then there should be no problem.

[Doc Roc]

I believe Sallic also offered you a match, Tal.

[Talic]

Possible, and I'd be happy to build a second character, should the need arise. However, I suspect there are quite a few players here eager to play, and I don't want to hog all the fun. :smallsmile:

[Doc Roc]

I believe this is true. I have a character to submit, if there is anyone willing to play one of my contraptions, so perhaps Sallic can find a worthy foe on short notice if someone will agree to pilot a monster of my making.

[Talic]

If not, I'm more than happy to create and run a match between you and another player.

[Doc Roc]

Unfortunately, if I won, I'd then have to feed myself to the hounds as I have full and necessarily intimate knowledge of the subsequent dungeon. I just... It's not time for me to do that yet. :)

[Talic]

But you could be a method by which other characters have a chance of entering the dungeon.

[Iku Rex]

[Re: "Item creation is not permitted ... "]

I'm guessing no combining crazy items together per DMG +50% cost rules. The only way to get multiple effects is to use the MIC method.Is this it Tidesinger?

If so you may want to word the "item creation is not permitted" rule differently.


[Re: Free spells]

But this is mostly aimed at archivists and chameleons, and a few other classes who would otherwise be disadvantaged in ways that just don't show up in real game play.Huh? How would they be disadvantaged? :smallconfused:


[Re: Abjurant champion power-up]

This is very true. I'll think more about this.Well?

(If you just want to nerf specialist wizards you could keep the schools as-is and just say that abjuration and enchantment count as one school for the purpose of banned schools.)

[Eloel]

I know I'm just being impatient, but I'm kinda expecting a battle after so much trash-talk about power.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Yo, calm the HELL down. Djinn and I are nowhere NEAR ready to fight, you impatient punks. I'm moving to KANSAS CITY in TWO DAYS. If you're that spoiling for a fight, you can fight someone else. In the meantime, maybe ASK the other team before going off an making a thread, aye?

Friggin' punks...

Listen up, you young whippersnapprs. In my day, we had respect for our elders, and when our elders said to snap to it, we did it! And we didn't have all this complaining and whining about either! Hell, it hadn't even been invented yet!

I swear, kids these days, they have no respect for their elders, what with your Dungeons and Dragons, and your card games, and your loud music and your hula hoops and your hopscotch and your dungerees, and your lolipops and your sony playstations and your voice activated light switches and your belly piercings and your Gears of War and your...

[Talic]

Huh? How would they be disadvantaged? :smallconfused:

Several classes advance in casting ability, yet don't gain any spells known when they do level. This puts them at getting the ability to cast, without any spells.

It's like hiring a master plumber, and he comes to your house without tools.

Things will get messy.

[Talic]

Team Wykyd Pharoah vs Team OzMoto (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6249706#post6249706)

Previous thread modified to account for new opponents.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

No items. Fox only. Final Destination.

[Eloel]

No items. Fox only. Final Destination.

Translate that please?

[Iku Rex]

Several classes advance in casting ability, yet don't gain any spells known when they do level. This puts them at getting the ability to cast, without any spells.They can buy scrolls or pay to copy spells from another's spellbook, using their WBL.

If you mean after the start of the game (in the PvP dungeon) then why does the rule talk about what characters "start with"?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Translate that please?

No items! Fox only! Final Destination! (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=127184)

[Talic]

They can buy scrolls or pay to copy spells from another's spellbook, using their WBL.


Yes, they can. But it's silly to force a class to spend gold to even be able to use their primary class ability.

[Doc Roc]

They can buy scrolls or pay to copy spells from another's spellbook, using their WBL.

If you mean after the start of the game (in the PvP dungeon) then why does the rule talk about what characters "start with"?

They certainly can, but I felt that maybe tossing a bone to non-weeeezards wasn't a terrible thing.

[wykydtron]

No items. Fox only. Final Destination.

Hahaha, god I hate fox so much. I've been playing too much brawl lately.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Talic, your PM box is full.

[Yahzi]

I'll be back... tomorrow. If anybody is interested in a 1v1.

[Eloel]

I'm here, let's do the battle! :P

[Melamoto]

Talic made the thread and said he'd DM in it, but we've been waiting for many, many hours and he hasn't come back yet...

[Melamoto]

Tide, what happens in the case of a no-show on the side of a DM for the battle?

[Doc Roc]

I will assume his position. For now. So, meet me over there I guess?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I am arrived. Let battle be done, and unleash the dogs of war.