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overduegalaxy
2009-06-05, 02:50 AM
For an upcoming evil 4e game, I've been toying with the idea of checking out the dark side of evil, and making a CE Chaos Sorcerer. Our group has evil games periodically, and I tend to stick to LE, because I feel that A) it makes the most sense when it comes to an evil party, and B) when played right, it can be much more evil than NE or CE. But I've decided to push my RPing envelope, and embrace the chaos.

My basic character concept so far is someone, bordering on insanity, who lives simply for the rush he gets when he's able to let his arcane powers fly. I've stuck primarily to blasts and bursts, partially because the group doesn't have a controller, and partially because I feel the character might not care if a party member accidentally gets caught in an explosion now and then, as long as he's maximizing damage potential. I feel there's an archetype here, and the character would be very vaguely based on the Crimson Alchemist from Fullmetal Alchemist. This is not a problem.

I believe I can pull this off without becoming Chaotic Stupid, and without the group getting pissed at me, but beyond that, I don't really have a feel for the CE alignment. Which is why I'm asking for tips on how to play the alignment well, actually make the character interesting, and so on.

Gnorman
2009-06-05, 03:02 AM
Almost every CE character I've ever played has been a sorcerer. It lends itself well to that rush of power. Being infused with magic in your very blood tends to impart a sense of arrogance, a sense of entitlement. Perhaps your character feels that he is a sort of ubermensch, a man who by the virtue of his own power is not bound by morality - he exists to break the very bonds of the hierarchy. Petty laws mean nothing. The whims and cries of children are for the paladins.

You could be an anarchist who doesn't care about rebuilding the system, he merely wishes to see it destroyed. Perhaps he believes deeply in entropy, the roiling inevitable chaos towards which the universe inexorably gravitates. Perhaps he is simply a nihilist - there is no power in life except what you make, and those who cling to gods and morals are mewling babes who deserve the meet their supposed afterlife a little sooner.

That said, chaotic evil characters need not be absolute monsters - perhaps they give into their passions a bit much, perhaps their disregard for others doesn't manifest itself as violence or anger but simply callous apathy. Creatures who do not hold as much power as your character are beneath his notice.

Chaotic evil characters often use insanity as a textbook defense - I disagree, and I would be wary of the cliche. Sanity can manifest itself in very frightening ways.

T.G. Oskar
2009-06-05, 03:53 AM
I concur with the idea that Chaotic Evil doesn't necessarily mean Chaotic Stupid. A lookout based on how each mental score affects alignment gives some good ideas on how to play Chaotic Evil beings well.

An intelligent Chaotic Evil is the serial killer. Beyond the importance of law, beyond the bounds of morality, a serial killer is fascinated with the idea of planning towards the destruction of a life. Sure, planning is a trait associated with Law (which does not exist in 4th Edition so to speak), so it's more of an individual who works on a pattern, but that his/her brilliance is such that he or she deliberately disrupts the pattern so that it seems like a random set of kills. Someone with this bent and turned Chaotic Evil usually prizes having someone challenging him or her, forcing him or her to make unexpected choices. The thrill of a Chaotic Evil intelligent individual is not how to run the perfect plan, but how to outsmart the individual with as little planning as possible. A smart Chaotic Evil doesn't necessarily has to be a murderer; a thief with such bent is equally challenging, or someone who lives to disrupt the plans of others (and not necessarily resorts to killing or showy actions), or even the individual who seeks in any way to outsmart the stoic establishment. The epitome of smart Chaotic Evils are those who live to challenge, and be challenged, by the notion of defying stability, all the better if stability is based upon noble means.

Wise Chaotic Evil will probably never kill unless necessary. Those are the madmen, the ones who follow philosophical bents that necessarily defy morality. From the Lovecraftian alienists, to the worst kind of supremacist, to the individual who believes that existence is merely his/her dominion and works actively to make it his or her dominion. Chaotic Evil usually is played with artificially low Wisdom, to allow for mild paranoia and delusions, either as result of beliefs of persecution, or their own trascendental line of thought. The much wiser Chaotic Evil think in a way that isn't normally insane, but that drive those around them completely insane. Think of ways on how to do wise things that drive others towards insanity; that thing may very well be the hallmark of the Chaotic Evil individuals who thrive on Wisdom.

Charismatic Chaotic Evil are dominant. They are the ubermensch, those who are seductive. However, to difference them from the normally Evil characters, they are natural anarchists and leaders of opposing stability. They probably have a Darwinistic bent, and are hard to difference between Evil individuals, until they reveal their chaotic bent; they do it because they want to, because they thrive on observing how they can destabilize things through words and actions. While the smart Chaotic Evil is usually a loner, the charismatic Chaotic Evil thrives on partnerships and social deals. But both lead to the same role; destruction of stability. If you feel attracted and convinced by someone, regardless of how logical it may NOT be, to overthrow a peaceful country, the one that drove you to it is both charismatic and Chaotic Evil.

In your case, perhaps it's not merely insanity. You let your Wisdom rest; you feel probably excited by the rush of arcane power. You should work more on how a charismatic Chaotic Evil would handle things; whenever some of your pals sees you blasting one of them, go with the one-two punch: allow them to experience the taste of how delicious it is to feel the power of the arcane rush through your skin as if you were a nymphomaniac, and then talk them into another idea, such as beginning with the "insatiable hunger for arcane power" and finishing with "and thus it was the most logical choice to throw it in that spot and not otherwise". And if someone thinks you're insane, you're free to allow him to believe it or go straight into proving him wrong.

I agree with Gnorman, tho:

Sanity can manifest itself in very frightening ways.

Pronounceable
2009-06-05, 05:01 AM
Yes, everyone and their uncle first thinks of the cackling maniac when CE is mentioned. Not only evil suffers from chaotic=mad preconception, CN is also seen as free pass to stupidity.

CE does not mean mentally unbalanced. Just a taste for inflicting pain and suffering with a side dish of utter contempt for customs and traditions is enough to be CE. You could even play someone who wanted to change but was consistently losing it and that'd still be CE.

You can get as complex as you want with any alignment. Just remember to have 3E alignments houseruled in.

Zen Master
2009-06-05, 05:17 AM
My ancient CE character was an outwardly cool, calm and collected guy (sorcerer like all the rest) who habitually planned pretty far ahead - and while his goals were personal power and wealth, he was in no way bent on destroying the world or crushing all freedom underfoot.

His chaotic nature came out in two ways: While he planned ahead, he tended to change his plans on the spur of the moment, and following wild impluses that often even went counter to his own long-term goals. And also, when in combat he completely lost control, obliterating everything in his path with AoE spells, with no regard what so ever towards limiting civilian casualties or showing restraint or mercy to his enemies.

Naturally, being evil, he saw no problem in any of this. If pressed, he would argue that since his weapons were spells, he could hardly fight without them - and also, once the fireworks start, anyone less powerful should have ample warning to vacate the premises. Anyone who remained had it coming.

He had long lasting loyalties - even though his chaotic alignment meant he was a rather unreliable ally. His friendships were solid and honest - but naturally he would turn on people if they became a threat to him, or if the gains of doing so significantly outweighed the cost.

If power could somehow be gained by the mindless slaughter of a hundred civilians, he would do so - but naturally, if the same results could be gained in other ways, he would do so, unless those other ways were far more difficult. Or say ... if they were more timeconsuming, and time was an issue.

I firmly believe all alignments can easily work in normal, real-life society. Also, naturally, I believe any alignment other than neutral is rare (if 'alignment' can in any way be applied to real life).

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-05, 05:28 AM
Almost every CE character I've ever played has been a sorcerer. It lends itself well to that rush of power.

Why it would take some sort of insane meglomaniacal fiend to take pleasure in wielding the tapestry of creation to focus pure energy into reality though nothing more than my own will, the rush of electricity though my being - the power -- my God, the power! It's the only time I feel ALIIIIIIIIVE!!!
(http://www.nuklearpower.com/2001/05/05/episode-025-real-hes-one-smoooooth-operator/)

Saph
2009-06-05, 05:46 AM
I dunno, whenever I hear Chaotic Evil I always think Simon Phoenix (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0106697/quotes) from Demolition Man.

I've always wanted to play a character like that, just briefly, but I don't think I could do justice to it.

- Saph

JonestheSpy
2009-06-05, 02:49 PM
I feel the character might not care if a party member accidentally gets caught in an explosion now and then, as long as he's maximizing damage potential.

...I believe I can pull this off without becoming Chaotic Stupid, and without the group getting pissed at me

Sounds like Chaotic Stupid to me, and I suspect you'll have a lot of 'splainin to do the first time your catch another player in one of your fireballs. Second time, I'm not sure why a party wouldn't tie you down and use you for monster bait.


I feel there's an archetype here, and the character would be very vaguely based on the Crimson Alchemist from Fullmetal Alchemist.

Acutally, the correct archetype would be Teflon Billy and every other mage played by Brian van Hoose of the comic Knights of the Dinner Table.

Heck, it applies to most of his other characters too... http://www.kenzerco.com/Operiodicals/kodt/kodt%20webstrips/phpslideshow.php?directory=.&currentPic=11

Tiki Snakes
2009-06-05, 06:47 PM
You all saw it, that Orphanage attacked me! (http://lfgcomic.com/)

Ganurath
2009-06-05, 07:17 PM
Mayuri Kurotsuchi. Mad Scientist, Speed Chessmaster, and peerless Karma Houdini. Any CE arcanist needs to follow his example.

Shadowbane
2009-06-05, 07:44 PM
You all saw it, that Orphanage attacked me! (http://lfgcomic.com/)

This. This is what I play CE like.

Eldrys
2009-06-05, 07:51 PM
I played an insane chaotic evil sorcerer for one adventure(the DM was cool and sometimes let me play as NPCs. the rest of the party wasn't supposed to know that I was CE, so I just didn't talk for the first half of the adventure, but as soon as we got to the black tower of doom, the DM passed me a note to go on a killing spree, unleashing all of my spells. The party got really pissed at me, so I was never allowed to keep watch and someone was always watching me.

Zaq
2009-06-05, 08:13 PM
In my mind, the quintessential Chaotic Evil is Kefka. He's insane (this is actually a plot point), but he doesn't choose to REALLY show it until he has enough power to rain down destruction from the heavens with a giant, city-leveling laser of death. He's capable of long-term planning and plotting, contemptuous of attempts to appeal to his better nature, and doesn't give three bits of a damn about anyone other than himself. He's still capable of forming alliances, he just does so strictly for his own benefit, though he was capable of hiding this. Good fun.

Ganurath
2009-06-05, 08:23 PM
This. This is what I play CE like.That's actually a perfect example of how CE shouldn't be played. Sure, it's entertaining from this side of the fourth wall, but nobody would want to adventure with someone who'd kill them for making fun of their name.

Decoy Lockbox
2009-06-05, 08:37 PM
Never forget the immortal words of the Sex Pistols:

I am an anti-christ
I am an anarchist
Don't know what I want but
I know how to get it
I wanna destroy the passer by cos I
I wanna BE anarchy!

If you were a totally self-centered bastard who didn't really care about social customs or honor, would you be chaotic evil? Do you have to be actively committed to destruction and anarchy in order to be CE? Is George Costanza from Seinfeld chaotic evil?

Shadowbane
2009-06-05, 08:40 PM
Well, there are some things you obviously don't do, lol. I mean the constant quipping, the mindless killing of things that want to kill/maim/hurt/annoy you, yeah, that's ok. I played like that in an evil campaign, and since my group is mostly roleplayers, they didn't mind. Not to mention that it was a sorcerer, so I got my fair share of CMoAs.

And since I had a great CHA and lots of ranks in bluff, I ended up making two armies kill each other instead of us so the party certainly didn't mind. Was cool.

DamnedIrishman
2009-06-05, 08:48 PM
It's not that they've lost their goal - they're actually true to their good or evil alignment, but at the cost of every survival mechanism developed by humanity.

Emphasis mine, and important. Your alignment is what you are on the inside. Only the mad and stupid reveal themselves. Just because you're chaotic doesn't mean you can't pretend to go along with laws. Just because you're evil doesn't mean you're a crazy stabber. Petty bureaucrats are often hellishly evil, as anyone who has ever had to deal with a town planning department will know.

SilverClawShift
2009-06-05, 08:56 PM
My current character is chaotic evil.

We're six levels in, and it hasn't really come up though. The way I see it, being Evil (even chaotic evil) doesn't really have to impact my day to day life, but how I view the world. Things through my characters vision are bleaker, nastier, and more open to "alternative" interpretations.
Chaotic Evil means you have more options presented to you, not that you have to flaunt those options left and right.

WHY you do anything is just as important as what you do.

Tiki Snakes
2009-06-05, 09:05 PM
That's actually a perfect example of how CE shouldn't be played. Sure, it's entertaining from this side of the fourth wall, but nobody would want to adventure with someone who'd kill them for making fun of their name.

To be fair, he then went out of his way(ish) to raise him from the dead.

Atcote
2009-06-05, 10:50 PM
Hey peoples, I'm brand new to this forum, usually I just read through, but I felt it was worthwhile to respond here.

To me, while there is always the insane Orc barbarian running through the peasant village, chopping off the heads and gentials of the local village folk, the greatest example of chaotic evil to me is Charles Prentiss.
Unfamilar name? Portrayed lovingly by Stephen Fry on Absolute Power, great british TV show, he is totally and utterly amoral, heartless, cruel and apathetic to the feelings and thoughts of others, with a complete disregard for rules and people's expectations. But why is he such a great example of choatic evil?
The title of the series - Absolute Power. In order for the character to truly act choatic evil, they're almost always in a position or at least feeling of complete and utter power over their surroundigns - nothing can threaten them, and if it does, they have to a way to deal with it, even if they don't know what it is yet.
Of course there can be psychopaths completely removed of their power, and thus lash out at the world with total disregard, to me well played choatic evil is just this: Pure Power, Pure Control, Pure Apathy.

(Of course I'm also open to apathy being of a standardly neutral feature, but apathy in knowingly causing harm to anyone, I believe to be an evil act.)

Hi GitP community, glad to be a part!

Sergeantbrother
2009-06-05, 11:17 PM
To me, Chaotic Evil means having no moral limitations. Basically all characters have certain goals they want to achieve, the goals of the CE aren't necessarily that different from the goals of other characters. The difference is that the CE person will do literally anything to achieve his goals. This doesn't mean that the CE character necessarily derives pleasure from suffering and destruction, simply that they are willing to cause those things to achieve their goals.

This also doesn't mean that the CE character is any less wise than others, they have the same potential for high Intelligence and Wisdom scores as any character does. They understand that their actions have consequences and will therefore act according to their own self interest even if it involves restraining their Chaotic or Evil nature. For example, if a CE character can benefit from torturing to death a fellow party member, he would do so, but only if it really benefited the CE character. Most of the time, the CE character's relationship with the party is mutually beneficial and thus he has no reason to harm members of his party, in fact he will help them as long is the risk to him are worth to gains of keeping said party members safe.

The CE character can have friends and loved ones too. These are people whose presence brings the CE character happiness and he would never harm them. Unless, of course, harm coming to them gives him a greater benefit than the pleasure they bring him. To the CE character, the ultimate question is "how will this help me?" The CE character will always do what is his own best interest and what will best achieve his goals, regardless of morality or social convention. If acting in a lawful or good manner is what best achieves the goals of the CE character, then this is what he will do.

How do you apply this to playing D&D? Well, just do what is most practical for yourself regardless of morality. This generally means helping and protecting the party since they are your meal ticket, your path to fame, fortune, and power rest in your cooperation with them and thus you must help them to survive. Likewise, kill and torture when it helps you, but don't do so if the consequences of such actions bring danger to yourself or your companions.

raptor1056
2009-06-05, 11:19 PM
One of my favorite characters I've ever played was a Human Hit-man (homebrew, basically a stealthy Fighter)/assassin. Upon first meeting the rest of the party, he was described as "quiet, friendly, but a little alienating. Something seems a bit off about him." The assumption among most of the campaign, given my predilection for arcane casters, was that the oddness was the result of playing a Wizard with a Cha dumpstat. They were somewhat revolted when, after being attacked by an enemy rogue, I feinted, sneak-attacked him to death, and chewed off his face. Good times with CE.

Trizap
2009-06-05, 11:28 PM
if I would play Chaotic Evil, I'd simply take a normal chaotic neutral person- someone who lies, cheats, breaks rules, etc just cause to survive or because he wants to- and make him deeply cynical, more selfish and willing to go to more extreme lengths to save his own hide, even if means 100, 1000, 10,000 people have to die in order for him to live.

"sorry, don't care about you losers, have fun dying!" :smallamused:

in short, he is evilly pragmatic and super-cynically selfish.

how could he possibly be in a party you ask? being evilly pragmatic, he would join an adventuring group knowing that it would be the best way to survive you would have a bunch of fools who would be willing to protect if you just showed them some kindness or saved their skins once so that they would trust you, then you can be allowed to kill stuff they are killing and have a share of their loot, heheheheh.

"cool, I hate goblins, lets kill those ugly little wimps"

that , in my opinion, is how you play CE.

Drakyn
2009-06-06, 01:27 PM
My current character is chaotic evil.

We're six levels in, and it hasn't really come up though. The way I see it, being Evil (even chaotic evil) doesn't really have to impact my day to day life, but how I view the world. Things through my characters vision are bleaker, nastier, and more open to "alternative" interpretations.
Chaotic Evil means you have more options presented to you, not that you have to flaunt those options left and right.

WHY you do anything is just as important as what you do.
Woah, would this be your crystal cantrips character? I've been lurking that thread since it started and had absolutely no idea. That's awesome.

SilverClawShift
2009-06-06, 01:32 PM
Woah, would this be your crystal cantrips character?

Indeed.

Chaotic Evil doesn't mean I want the world destroyed, or that I have some overwhelming desire to murder children. It doesn't mean I can't have allies, or even do good things from time to time.

Being evil just means that, when you get right down to the brass tacks of it, I won't rule out lighting your house on fire to accomplish my goals (whatever those may be). I might not opt to do so out of pragmatism and self preservation, but the possibility is there.
Like I said, it hasn't actually come up yet though :smalltongue:

Kzickas
2009-06-06, 02:05 PM
Remember that even though you are chaotic evil you can still have som lawful or good traits. And you still have motivations that are not inherently chaotic evil. Remember that you're a human not a tanar'ri

JonestheSpy
2009-06-06, 07:08 PM
Being evil just means that, when you get right down to the brass tacks of it, I won't rule out lighting your house on fire to accomplish my goals (whatever those may be). I might not opt to do so out of pragmatism and self preservation, but the possibility is there.


To me, that might be something like "neutral (tends toward evil), not full on. I mean, look at the conduct of regular "decent" people during real world armed conflicts - not really all that different. The evil person would instinctually lean towards burning the house down first, thne eliminate it as an option if the cons outweighed the pros

I figure Evil has to actually involve being at least somewhat motivated by spite and malice, the desire to hurt and dominate people one way or another. And such a person can think of themselves as anytihng BUT evil - think of an Inquisitor who believes he is doing the will of god but really really enjoys watching accused witches burn alive...

CarpeGuitarrem
2009-06-06, 07:12 PM
Come, come, nobody's mentioned Belkar, with his CE-disguised streak?

Tiki Snakes
2009-06-06, 07:13 PM
Evil means never having to justify your actions, not even to an extra-planar jury of The Forces Of Evil. (Seriously, it's all Richard.)

SilverClawShift
2009-06-06, 07:36 PM
To me, that might be something like "neutral (tends toward evil), not full on.

*snip*

I figure Evil has to actually involve being at least somewhat motivated by spite and malice, the desire to hurt and dominate people one way or another.

I want to preface this by saying that I promise, PROMISE, I do not intend this as insulting.

Personally, I view that as a cartoonish portrayal of evil. Yes, there do exist darth vader types out in the world, who would gladly strangle a subordinate for a minor mistake, if they could get away with it.
But the DEPTH that some evil people sink to does not make lesser evils 'neutral' by comparison. Alignment being divided into 9 chunks is an oversimplification, when it should really be more like a sliding scale, as new depravities don't make old depravities okay.

There's a lot to be said for being pure and good in thought as well as deed, afterall.

shadzar
2009-06-06, 07:55 PM
Come, come, nobody's mentioned Belkar, with his CE-disguised streak?

Because Belkar is lawful good, just on a mission that no one else may know about. Didn't you see that gnome reaching for his gun to shoot Celia with, and he would if Belkar, didn't intervene and stop him to protect her.

If you want someone from FMA to model, I would suggest the Sewing-Life alchemist for his creation of chimera as a role model for the character.

Hey I need to keep my job, so lets turn my wife into a monster that will die in a few days!

Hey I need to keep my job, so lets turn my daughter and pet dog into a monster that can talk until it dies in a few days!

:smalleek:

JonestheSpy
2009-06-06, 09:35 PM
I want to preface this by saying that I promise, PROMISE, I do not intend this as insulting.

Personally, I view that as a cartoonish portrayal of evil. Yes, there do exist darth vader types out in the world, who would gladly strangle a subordinate for a minor mistake, if they could get away with it.


Well, cartoonish is in the eye of the beholder I suppose. I don't think the type of person I described automatically equals Darth Vader - taking pleasure from the pain of others and feeling power over them does not necessarily a genocidal monster make, and is rather more common than I think you might be wanting to admit. What else motivates an average schoolyard bully? I encourage anyone who wants to see an example of modern, small-scale, personal evil to read (or catch an adaptation of) Dickens' David Copperfield, and contemplate the behaviour of Daivd's step-father Mr. Murdstone and his noxious sister.

On the other end of the scale, as far as the "evil= being willing to consider every option no matter who it harms", well, you'd have to go back pretty far to find an American President who that didn't apply to - who was the last one who didn't have inncoent blood on their hands? (Don't answer that, it was rhetorical, definitely not trying to be political, just make a philosophical point.)

Now, I do realize that people can act in ways commonly regarded as 'evil' out of greed or whatnot with out regard for the suffering it causes but not actively enjoying the suffering per se, but my own little pop psychology theory is that there is a lot of actual underlying, unadmitted sadism involved even in that kind of behaviour - the real pleasure is in having what others don't, not in the having itself.


But the DEPTH that some evil people sink to does not make lesser evils 'neutral' by comparison.

Actually, it kinda does. See below.



Alignment being divided into 9 chunks is an oversimplification, when it should really be more like a sliding scale, as new depravities don't make old depravities okay.

Of course any kind of moral classification system - game or otherwise- is going to be an oversimplification, but if actually look beyond the basic alignments and at the planes, there's a lot more wiggle room. You've got Ysgard, Pandemonium, and all those other planes for the people who don't fit neatly into one absolute algnment. So when talking about evil behaviour, it's actually relevant about whether you're talking about being so bad you're doomed to the lowest planes, or only as far as Pandemonium or Acheron (there really should be a plane for something between neutral/neutral evil too, but that doesn't fit into the whole 'Wheel' image, and I guess one could say the areas of the Outlands that border on the lower planes kind of qualify).