Idea: Level Adjustment HD

[Eldan]

So, I've heard various complaints about how Level Adjustment is horrible, and there was some discussion in Djinn's epic level game about it. There were a few fixes thrown around, this one here is my own idea, I'd like to hear a few ideas about it's balance.

Level Adjustment HD:

Instead of just being "Empty Levels", so to speak, for every Point of Level Adjustment, you gain a Level Adjustment HD. A Level Adjustment is a d4 HD, which gives you no bonus to saves, no skill points and doesn't count as a racial HD for feats or classes and templates which change the value of your Hit die. However, they still count towards reaching epic level, or other level requirements. They don't count as being your first level for quadrupling of skill points or maximising your hit points, that's still your first class level or racial hit die. Therefore:

-If you should become undead via the Lich template, as an example, they will stay d4's, and not become d12's.

-A Drow (LA+2) Cleric 4 would have 4d8+2d4 hit die, and would qualify for leadership.

-The same cleric, but now Level 19, would qualify for epic feats.

So, ideas, balance? Is this horrible or useful? What needs to be fixed?

[Ouranos]

You have to add in the stipulation that if you use Unearthed Arcana's experience buy off of LA's that you lose the extra d4 hit die each time. So an LA1 that buys his LA off loses the d4 he had, if a drow did it they would lose 1 of their 2d4's.

[Lord Loss]

Sweet! I like it. try to expand a bit more on the idea, though, because LA Characters still suck, just a bit less!

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Well, the solution I used in my game was just extra Humanoid Hit Dice, but this option could work as well:

The Adjustment Class

HD: d8 (the average Hit Dice)
Attack: Average
Saves: +1 to everything per 2 levels of The Adjustment Class (minimum +0)
Skill Points: 4 + Int, class skills are any skills with ranks in them from racial Hit Dice or Character Levels.
Class Features: The Adjustment Class does not advance any feature, nor do Adjustment Levels count as Hit Dice for the purposes of abilities or powers dependent on Character level.



This gives, say, a Lich +4d8 Hit Dice, a +3 Base Attack Bonus, (4 + Int)*4 skill points, and +2 to all saves. He gains no class features and no increase in actual Character level, but he is a bit more competent in a game than a standard -4 Level Lich.

[Eldan]

So you give actual Humanoid HD? Feats, BAB and everything included? Is that still balanced?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

So you give actual Humanoid HD? Feats, BAB and everything included? Is that still balanced?

No idea. :smallbiggrin:

[Lord Loss]

Djinn's idea seems good, I personally give 1hd per level of adjustment, but decreased by 1 die category (minimum d4), a feat every Two LA levels (This compromises for lack of class features), and 4 Skill Points + int bonus every 2 levels of LA.

[Eldan]

Well, I think that LA should be worse than class levels or just racial HD, because it's intended to balance out stronger races. If they were nearly as good as fighter levels (And really, outsider HD, as an example, aren't much worse), then certain races would become overly strong.

Maybe giving full racial HD might be balanced, but I actually doubt it...

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Well, I think that LA should be worse than class levels or just racial HD, because it's intended to balance out stronger races. If they were nearly as good as fighter levels (And really, outsider HD, as an example, aren't much worse), then certain races would become overly strong.

Maybe giving full racial HD might be balanced, but I actually doubt it...

Hence why my version isn't just racial HD. It's better in some cases, worse in others...but the kicker is that it's just Attack Bonuses, saves, and feats...the stuff a player needs to stay alive, but not the stuff needed to stay competitive. That's all granted by the race. DCs dependent on Character level, for example, do not increase...but you can still make a saving throw against a death effect with that +7 LA.

[Eldan]

Hmm, right. It wasn't actually you I meant with that comment, but arb: giving a feat every two levels really makes the LA in a weaker variant of a fighter class.

Still, one should probably run a few mathematical examples, compare a straight half-orc fighter to one with an LA of +2 or something.

Of course, the fighter is a bad example for this, they don't get anything cool anyway.

[Dr.Gunsforhands]

I've seen a lot of talk about level adjustments being too empty. My first reaction was to replace it with levels in commoner, based on a ruling I first came up with when somebody wanted to play a planetouched in a first-level game.

Really, though, some monsters get things that make this approach redundant and silly. For instance, while low HD leads to fewer hit points, a big racial constitution bonus can make up for it, and if one were to add the bonus in for a bunch of commoner levels on top of the race and class ones... eek. Perhaps sometimes it's best to just leave well enough alone. Buy a nice cloak of resistance to help make up for the lame saves, maybe.

Alas, less beefy monsters can still have it rough sometimes. Mind flayers and Succubi, in particular, are built a lot like sorcerers in their general theme, have about as many levels of *blank* as of *creature type,* a d8 hit die, and not much of a constitution bonus. Maybe they can replace their racial and LA levels with d4s without too much trouble.

[Eldan]

That's what I thought, generally. One of the bigger problems with LA is that there are spells that target creatures with "X or less HD" and kill them, which really makes LA a big problem on higher levels.
The constitution bonus, on the other hand, might be a problem.

[Ouranos]

Mayhaps d4-(1/2 racial con bonus) minimum 1? So an Aasimar would get a single d4, full. But say a half dragon would not get the full effect of their bonus HD's. Basicly it would get any race with less then 8 con bonus some bonus health. A race with a bonus of 4 would only get half the bonus max.

[Cieyrin]

Not really a solution to LA suckage but more of a balance to the issue, is generally in a game I require for a powerful race to have hit dice, racial or class (though 1 should most likely be a class level), equal to their LA+1 to be allowed. So for a 3rd level game, LA +1 are admissible, 2 HD + 1 LA = 3, and so on. Since I find that most powerful races above LA +4 start to really go downhill in terms of power compared to the equivalent in PC class levels, i'm not sure how well it works in higher level examples, such as high to epic level. The 20th level one-shot I ran a while back seemed to work alright, w/ LAs in the 3-7 range, from Urskan and Yetis from Frostburn up through Ghosts, Pixies, Rakshasa and Treants. From that, I find that as long as the hit dice to LA ratio leans towards hit dice, it seems to work fine.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.