More realistic tyrannosaurus stats? (3.5e)

[Volkov]

In addition to the APL 108 game I dm, I also DM a APL 13 game with a different group. I was always bothered by the fact that statwise the T-rex is weaker than the Spinosaurus, when in reality, A t-rex was tougher, stronger, and smarter than the Spinosaurus. However I can't seem to figure out how to make the T-rex not over the top in power.

So can anyone work out the stat block for the t-rex? Preferably monster manual IV and after style? Try to make it as much like the real one as possible. Try to make it CR 15 if possible, 16 at highest.

[Deth Muncher]

Use the stats of the Spinosaur? Andkeep all relevant abilities of the T-Rex?

[Volkov]

Use the stats of the Spinosaur? Andkeep all relevant abilities of the T-Rex?

Problem, no T-rex can reach the required length for colossal. Unless it was altered genetically. coughjurassicparkcough

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Int 8

The T-Rex is the idiot of the dinosaur world

Wis 16

Unfortunately, it can understand what you are saying.

[Woodsman]

Uh, Spinosaurus was the largest carnivore ever to walk the earth.

So why shouldn't it be tougher and stronger? Not necessarily smarter, of course, but still.

[chiasaur11]

Int 8?

For a standard Rex?

That's as good as the average Half-orc!

[Spiryt]

Uh, Spinosaurus was the largest carnivore ever to walk the earth.

So why shouldn't it be tougher and stronger? Not necessarily smarter, of course, but still.

I'm also interested how you reached so categorical conclusion that T-Rex has to be stronger than Spinosaurus. You organised a competition?

In fact, if S-saurus really had up to 2.5 t more body mass, I would say it would be damn hard for Tyranosaurus to have similar physical strenght.

[Kris Strife]

Gigantosaurus, a real dinosaur by the way, was larger than both T-Rex and Spinosaurus. Also, current information, based on the shape of spinosaurus's teeth and jaw as well as the fact that the bones of its fin were rather fragile, its now believed it was either a scavenger or a fisher rather than an actual hunter. There's also still some debate on if T-Rex was a predator or scavenger as well.

Sorry, wanted to be a paleontologist since I was 2 years old. :smallredface:

[Spiryt]

I'm not really good at biology, but what's the point of being so huge, with big tusks, if you're a scavenger?

For self defense?

[Kris Strife]

I'm not really good at biology, but what's the point of being so huge, with big tusks, if you're a scavenger?

For self defense?

When you have a huge, fragile extremity with a ridiculous number of blood vessels (best theories are either mating display or used to help with temperature regulation), located in a place you can't defend well, and you're small, fragile and don't have any pointy bits, guess where the bigger predators bite first.

[Talic]

The idea of T-rex as a scavenger is all but disproven. Current beliefs show T-rex in much the same light as a lion. Able to kill, willing to scavenge and bully other creatures away from their kills. But not a slouch. Such a creature is restricted by size, so it needs to be competitive within its size bracket. With a pound for pound comparison, the only dinosaur that has beat the T-rex in raw killing power is the Velociraptor.

[yilduz]

The T-Rex is the idiot of the dinosaur world

What? As a carnivore, a T-Rex would have been far more intelligent than many other dinosaurs. I wouldn't say a T-Rex was most intelligent, but definitely not the idiot of the dinosaur world.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

What? As a carnivore, a T-Rex would have been far more intelligent than many other dinosaurs. I wouldn't say a T-Rex was most intelligent, but definitely not the idiot of the dinosaur world.

Someone hasn't been watching movie previews.

[Woodsman]

Gigantosaurus, a real dinosaur by the way, was larger than both T-Rex and Spinosaurus. Also, current information, based on the shape of spinosaurus's teeth and jaw as well as the fact that the bones of its fin were rather fragile, its now believed it was either a scavenger or a fisher rather than an actual hunter. There's also still some debate on if T-Rex was a predator or scavenger as well.

Sorry, wanted to be a paleontologist since I was 2 years old. :smallredface:

Nope, evidence has shown Spinosaurus was bigger.

I've been a paleontologist too.

[Secosera]

I finally register to post, and it's not OoTS related...go figure.

Most evidence suggests that Spinosaurus was indeed a fish eater, due to its similarities to it's piscivorous cousin, Baryonyx. Other species it shared similarities to were mostly herbivores, so it's hard to gain knowledge from those relatives. Just because it was the largest, doesn't necessarily make it the toughest or strongest. Size can be attributed to habitat, among other things.

Gigantosaurus is another that gained reputation for it's size. Evidence lends to this species being more of a scavenger than T-rex, due to the fragile teeth it had. Where T-rex had cylindrical teeth for puncturing, Gigantosaurus had flat, serrated teeth. It would not be able to hold on to large prey (and at this time and place, the prey was LARGE) It most likely scavenged or hunted small game.

[raptor1056]

I myyself subscribe to the "Tyranosaurus as territorial scavenger" school of thought. It's design--top-heavy, non-utilitarian arms-- makes it more ideal fighter than hunter, while its teeth, though strong, seem to be more specialized for puncturing scales and flesh than ripping off meat. I don't know if the evidence has shifted out of the favor of that argument, but it seemed reasonable when I used to folow paleontology. (I love you, Jack Horner.) Anyways, regarding the OP, might you have been thinking of the dimetrodon rather than the spinosaurus? The dimetrodon was quadropedal, and much smaller than any of the largest theropod "predators" (quotes to support debatability of subject, not condescendingly insert my own viewpoint.) Anyways, I have long considered running a dinosaur-centric campaign, but decided that that would be too nerdy, even for me, so I instead inserted a Savage Land type locale and introduced a ranger from said isolated valley, with a deinonychus animal companion, the equivalent of dragonhide armor, and badass claw knives. But then he died at the hands of the BBEG. :(. Rest in peace, my favorite NPC ever. I hope the Bastlands are fittingly rough on you to keep you entertained.
Wow, I am zonked. Vicodin can do that, but it's worth it to avoid the searing pain behind my molars.
Anyways. Spinosauruses are big, and to create a tougher T-Rex, make a Spinosaurus, shove in T-Rex flavor, and advance HD accordingly.

[Volkov]

A t-rex's average bite force is 40,000-50,000 psi. A spinosaurus's bite force, and heck even a Giganatosaurus's bite froce falls very short of this. Giganatosaurus's bite only comes up at 18,000 psi, nothing to sneeze at but unimpressive compared to the tyrant king of bites. In fact, no other animal, past, present, and probably future, has ever come close to the T-rex's bite force in PSI.

[raptor1056]

A t-rex's average bite force is 40,000-50,000 psi. A spinosaurus's bite force, and heck even a Giganatosaurus's bite froce falls very short of this. Giganatosaurus's bite only comes up at 18,000 psi, nothing to sneeze at but unimpressive compared to the tyrant king of bites. In fact, no other animal, past, present, and probably future, has ever come close to the T-rex's bite force in PSI.

Very true. I was simply thinking in terms of size. In terms of D&D, think of the Tyranosaurus as the Power-Attacking Barbarian, while the Spinosaurus is the somehow faster optimized speedy fighter. Rex does more damage, but the spinosaurus was more likely more intelligent, faster given its leg length, and a more versatile predator.

[Volkov]

If you were to be bitten by a t-rex and were not made of adamantine, you're a dead man. The sheer blunt force alone would be enough to cause steel to cave in and rupture almost instantaneously. Of course D&D 13th level characters can take a ballista bolt through the skull and be just fine.

[raptor1056]

If you were to be bitten by a t-rex and were not made of adamantine, you're a dead man. The sheer blunt force alone would be enough to cause steel to cave in and rupture almost instantaneously. Of course D&D 13th level characters can take a ballista bolt through the skull and be just fine.

This. A Tyranosaurus was essentially a car-crusher with teeth. I'm just now realizing how long my paleontonerdiness has stayed with me. Of my past 3 characters, one was a wizard who rode a T-Rex he had dominated, and the second was a half dragon ranger who raised dinosaurs. :). Anyways, I think that the advanced tactical pluses-- better balance, longer arms, faster running-- still make spinosaurus more dangerous, unless you plan on standing in place and swapping blows. That said, I'm not trying to run your campaign, so you can (and, realistically, should) boost the T-Rex's damage to make it tougher.

[Dhavaer]

A t-rex's average bite force is 40,000-50,000 psi. A spinosaurus's bite force, and heck even a Giganatosaurus's bite froce falls very short of this. Giganatosaurus's bite only comes up at 18,000 psi, nothing to sneeze at but unimpressive compared to the tyrant king of bites. In fact, no other animal, past, present, and probably future, has ever come close to the T-rex's bite force in PSI.

How is the bite force of an extinct animal calculated?

[Volkov]

How is the bite force of an extinct animal calculated?

They determine it by looking at how much musculature was in it's skull, how efficiently it was applied, among other things. It's not an exact science.

[Volkov]

This. A Tyranosaurus was essentially a car-crusher with teeth. I'm just now realizing how long my paleontonerdiness has stayed with me. Of my past 3 characters, one was a wizard who rode a T-Rex he had dominated, and the second was a half dragon ranger who raised dinosaurs. :). Anyways, I think that the advanced tactical pluses-- better balance, longer arms, faster running-- still make spinosaurus more dangerous, unless you plan on standing in place and swapping blows. That said, I'm not trying to run your campaign, so you can (and, realistically, should) boost the T-Rex's damage to make it tougher.

A T-rex could kill a Spinosaurus with a single bite to it's long neck, in fact, it could crush Spino's skull between those jaws in such a way that the skull would explode. Also Spinosaurus never had to deal with anything that came close to it's size. T-rex had to kill off other Tyrannosaurs and oversized Dromeosaurids on a daily basis. Utahraptor's are deadlier than one would think.

[Trodon]

Gigantosaurus, a real dinosaur by the way, was larger than both T-Rex and Spinosaurus. Also, current information, based on the shape of spinosaurus's teeth and jaw as well as the fact that the bones of its fin were rather fragile, its now believed it was either a scavenger or a fisher rather than an actual hunter. There's also still some debate on if T-Rex was a predator or scavenger as well.

Sorry, wanted to be a paleontologist since I was 2 years old. :smallredface:

agreed and same here :smallsmile:

[hamishspence]

Giganotosaurus was only marginally bigger than T. rex (44 ft compared to T. rex's 40.

There is some limited evidence suggesting it, or at least its slightly smaller relative Maputosaurus, may have been a pack hunter- tracks, bonebeds.

Tyrannosaurus- strongest evidence of it being a hunter- healed bite
marks on prey, matching its teeth. Proof that it must have attacked living prey, and sometimes, the prey survived the attack.

In the context of D&D, the D&D version of T. rex is slightly faster than you would expect- having both a 40 ft movement rate and the Run feat. Maybe this should be toned down.

D&D Spinosaurus (MM2) is Gargantuan rather than Colossal, and is a bit overpowered, rather than T. rex being underpowered.

Dragon 318 has stats for D&D Giganotosaurus- also Gargantuan. CR13. Has the sort of bite that would be better placed on T. rex- triple damage on a critical, extented critical range, 2 pts Constitution damage with every bite. Nice.

[Ravens_cry]

They determine it by looking at how much musculature was in it's skull, how efficiently it was applied, among other things. It's not an exact science.
They also compare bite marks found in bone and figure how much force would have been needed to replicate those wounds.
http://news.stanford.edu/pr/96/960827tyrexbite.html

[hamishspence]

There was a rather entertaining BBC show- presented by Bill Oddie, showing them testing out mechanised versions of the dinosaurs, with the calculated speeds, bite strengths, etc.

Among the conclusions- T. rex's bite could crumple cars as per Jurassic Park, Triceratops would have risked breaking its horns if it rammed a T. Rex at full speed, and Velociraptors probably did not use their claws as slashing weapons, but as piercing weapons (no sharp edge on claws, not strong enough to slash open thick skin, only to pierce it)

[Tequila Sunrise]

In addition to the APL 108 game I dm, I also DM a APL 13 game with a different group. I was always bothered by the fact that statwise the T-rex is weaker than the Spinosaurus, when in reality, A t-rex was tougher, stronger, and smarter than the Spinosaurus. However I can't seem to figure out how to make the T-rex not over the top in power.
I remember watching a T-rex documentary a few years back that presented some pretty convincing evidence for big T as a scavenger rather than a predator. So maybe not so tough.

[hamishspence]

Said documentary has to explain healed bite marks to be believable.

Now one could claim T. rex was both good enough at stalking to lay a bite on its prey, and bad enough at fighting that its prey usually got away, so this opportunist attacks are the exception rather than the rule. But this lacks plausibility.

It makes more sense to say T.rex routinely attacked prey, and sometimes prey escaped, and sometimes it didn't.

Now T. rex's sense of smell is sometimes cited as evidence of scavenging habits. Problem- sharks have it, and are predators, and Old World Vultures don't have it, and a scavengers.

[Rainbownaga]

Even in core alone the stats look wrong: If i remember right, they used to hunt triceratop, but they've got a lower CR. Surely something is wrong there.

[hamishspence]

Ironically the 4th ed T-rex equivalent (fang titan drake) has a wider range of special attacks- a terrifying roar effect, a tail swipe, and a double-hitting bite (hits 2 characters adjacent to each other and grabs one)

[raptor1056]

Said documentary has to explain healed bite marks to be believable.

Now one could claim T. rex was both good enough at stalking to lay a bite on its prey, and bad enough at fighting that its prey usually got away, so this opportunist attacks are the exception rather than the rule. But this lacks plausibility.

It makes more sense to say T.rex routinely attacked prey, and sometimes prey escaped, and sometimes it didn't.

Now T. rex's sense of smell is sometimes cited as evidence of scavenging habits. Problem- sharks have it, and are predators, and Old World Vultures don't have it, and a scavengers.

However, New World vultures have incredibly senses of smell, as do Komodo dragons, which I think probably fill the same roll as the T. rex tended to. Said roll is/was eating carrion whenever possible, hunting when it was not. Logistically, it makes sense for an animal to avoid risking its neck im combat whenever possible. As for the T. rex versus Spinosaurus debate, the two would probably avoid fighting one another whenever possible, so the argument of whether or not a T. rex could kill one in one bite is irrelevant. No matter how strong a Tyranosaurus's bite, evolved survival instincts are stronger. Said survival instincts tend to yell, "it's bigger than me/ it's mouth is bigger than mine! It might hurt me! Run away!"

[Drakyn]

On the scavenger/predator thing, I'm pretty sure the accepted answer nowadays is "Why in hell would it pick one or the other?"
Sheer 100% balls-to-the-walls, pick-at-the-decaying-ribcage scavengers are rare, rare, rare. Most carnivores won't knock at an opportunity to snatch up and eat something of appropriate size if the price is right. And hyperactive, red-meat-lovin', ain't-no-sissy-carrion-eater carnivores...do they even exist? Practically anything that's a predator won't say no to eating someone else's hard work or leftovers. It's free food, just like when your roommate foolishly leaves a piece of cake in the fridge overnight.

All this aside, tyrannosaurus-inflicted healed bites on bones, massively built to ram into something and yank the teeth out through the bone, yadda, yadda, yadda. The idea of it being a predator OR a scavenger sounds odd to me, but the idea that a 50-foot carnivore with a massively overbuilt frame was one of the rare "ONLY DEAD STUFF" eaters is substantially more loony-seeming than the idea that it would be silly enough to turn its nose up at carrion.

[Chronos]

There's also still some debate on if T-Rex was a predator or scavenger as well.So far as I'm aware, those are just two different words for the same thing. There's never been any creature known to kill prey but not eat carrion, or to eat carrion but not kill prey. Why should Mr. Rex be an exception?

[Ravens_cry]

Even in core alone the stats look wrong: If i remember right, they used to hunt triceratop, but they've got a lower CR. Surely something is wrong there.
Lions attack Cape Buffalo, yet Cape Buffalo are considered even more dangerous. Prey doesn't stand shivering in the Serengeti waiting to be eaten, some prey can strike back.

[Drakyn]

Lions attack Cape Buffalo, yet Cape Buffalo are considered even more dangerous. Prey doesn't stand shivering in the Serengeti waiting to be eaten, some prey can strike back.
I wonder what would happen if someone tried to run some sort of wildlife simulation using 3.5 stats for the animals. Specifically, I wonder what kind of ludicrously amusing things would happen. I seem to recall elephants being stronger than almost all fully mature adult dragons, but I guess that's less rules dissonance and more slightly weird.

[Volkov]

A T-Rex wouldn't be afraid of a spinosaurus in the slightest. Not when it slaughters other Tyrannosaurs and gargantuan Dromeosaurids on a regular basis and tears Sauropods a new one.

[Drakyn]

Odds are that Tyrannosaurs didn't start lethal fights with each other when they could just chase the other off - if they're capable of inflicting lethal damage on a member of the same species, so can the other guy. For that matter, if another predator is dangerous enough to give a T. rex "street cred" for killing it, I'm willing to bet that both animals would be less likely to fight each other. Survival tends to come before machismo in the wild, and anything that picks a possible fight to the death on a regular basis isn't going to live very long.

I am, however, willing to believe that a T. rex would be capable of killing a Spinosaurus (sturdier build, WAY stronger jaws, nastier teeth), and I agree with you that Jurassic Park III sucked.

[Volkov]

Odds are that Tyrannosaurs didn't start lethal fights with each other when they could just chase the other off - if they're capable of inflicting lethal damage on a member of the same species, so can the other guy. For that matter, if another predator is dangerous enough to give a T. rex "street cred" for killing it, I'm willing to bet that both animals would be less likely to fight each other. Survival tends to come before machismo in the wild, and anything that picks a possible fight to the death on a regular basis isn't going to live very long.

I am, however, willing to believe that a T. rex would be capable of killing a Spinosaurus (sturdier build, WAY stronger jaws, nastier teeth), and I agree with you that Jurassic Park III sucked.

T-Rex killed Nanotyrannus's on sight, mainly because the fact that the mini-rex likes to kill the T-Rex's kids.

[Drakyn]

I believe it's still considered to be fairly up in the air whether Nanotyrannus was a separate genus of tyrannosaur or just a juvenile T. rex itself. Also, if you're depending on Jurassic Fight Club for info, I'd take it with a hefty scoop of delicious skepticism, especially when it comes to dinosaur behaviour.

Also, you're neglecting the important question: why has no one ever tried building a Tyrannosaurus as an effective, optimised player character? There has to be some way to work your way around the level adjustments.

Anyone up for a challenge? :smalltongue:

EDIT: Whups, almost didn't catch this - even if Nanotyrannus was a separate species that T. rex had to chase away from its young, it'd scarcely count as a Tyrannosaurus getting into a potentially lethal fight. Nanotyrannus was something like twenty feet long at best, and T. rex was at least double that.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I believe it's still considered to be fairly up in the air whether Nanotyrannus was a separate genus of tyrannosaur or just a juvenile T. rex itself. Also, if you're depending on Jurassic Fight Club for info, I'd take it with a hefty scoop of delicious skepticism, especially when it comes to dinosaur behaviour.

Also, you're neglecting the important question: why has no one ever tried building a Tyrannosaurus as an effective, optimised player character? There has to be some way to work your way around the level adjustments.

Anyone up for a challenge? :smalltongue:18 HD, and a listed LA of -. Not happening without a very lenient DM, and a very unoptimized Epic game.

[Volkov]

I believe it's still considered to be fairly up in the air whether Nanotyrannus was a separate genus of tyrannosaur or just a juvenile T. rex itself. Also, if you're depending on Jurassic Fight Club for info, I'd take it with a hefty scoop of delicious skepticism, especially when it comes to dinosaur behaviour.

Also, you're neglecting the important question: why has no one ever tried building a Tyrannosaurus as an effective, optimised player character? There has to be some way to work your way around the level adjustments.

Anyone up for a challenge? :smalltongue:
If I knew that a species' children would grow into something that could kill me with one bite to, well, anywhere, I would kill their kids before they could grow that big. If I'm not Mistaken, T-Rex spread across all of north america pretty much. One of Rex's main competitors for top predator was Deinosuchus, which Rex could kill by stomping on him.

I did make a Awakened Half Gold Dragon max hit dice T-Rex of Legend once. Although I'm not sure if that counts.

[Drakyn]

Oh the curse of the NPC creature. To be so awesome that you're not allowed to play it :smalleek:

I'm not even sure where the Deinosuchus-stomping comes from. I know they slid by within a few million years, which I guess could mean near-relatives could come into play with each other, but knowing how they interacted that precisely is a bit strange. "T. rex and Deinosuchus were antagonistic/stayed away from each other/were rivals for similar prey" I could sort of buy, but the head-stomping thing seems very precise. They find a fossil with a footprint jammed into its noggin?

That sounds something that'd be fun to fight. And if you made it half red dragon, wouldn't you have this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowser_(character))?

[Volkov]

Oh the curse of the NPC creature. To be so awesome that you're not allowed to play it :smalleek:

I'm not even sure where the Deinosuchus-stomping comes from. I know they slid by within a few million years, which I guess could mean near-relatives could come into play with each other, but knowing how they interacted that precisely is a bit strange. "T. rex and Deinosuchus were antagonistic/stayed away from each other/were rivals for similar prey" I could sort of buy, but the head-stomping thing seems very precise. They find a fossil with a footprint jammed into its noggin?

That sounds something that'd be fun to fight. And if you made it half red dragon, wouldn't you have this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowser_(character))?
Stomping on a crocodile, is by far the safest way to kill a crocodile without ranged weapons. Using your height is the logical way to kill it. Trying to bite a crocodile the size of Deinosuchus would leave you open for a bone crushing bite to the neck from the only animal to come close to Rex's Bite force.

[Drakyn]

Waving your leg around the central body or head/neck of a fifty foot alligator just doesn't seem safe is what I'm picturing. Plus, given that T. rex's legs were located about halfway down its total body length (rather than directly underneath its entire body), stomping would seem to require hovering your front half directly over said large, angry alligator as you stomped. And those things can move damned quickly.
Also, this ties right back into "why would a tyrannosaurus get into a fight with something its own size when it has many smaller things to eat." Especially if it's near the water in the first place. Crocodillians are faster than they look on land, and in the water I think you just sort of go "WRP"*Splash* and vanish.

Say, is this technically a versus thread now, or does this all count as a tangent?