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View Full Version : is it worth it to take a prestige class?



darkblust
2009-06-05, 03:26 PM
So i'm playing my level 6 fire based beguiler,and i was wondering if I should take the prestige class dragon disciple instead of another beguiler.what do u guys think i should do?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-05, 03:28 PM
Here's a build I saw on Charop contest.

Human

Beguiler5/Mindbender1/Rainbow Servant4/Contemplative1/Rainbow Servant6/Divine Oracle1/Sacred Exorcist1/Church Inquisitor1

Feats:

1:
Knowledge Devotion
Heighten Spell

3:
Sculpt Spell

5:
Silent Spell

6:
Mindsight

9:
Rapid Metamagic

10:
Extend Spell (from Planning Domain, gotten from Contemplative)

12:
Persist Spell

15:
Divine Metamagic: Persist Spell

18:
Extra Turning

Domains:
Air
Law
Good
Planning (Grants Time Stop!)
Oracle
Inquisition

All Cleric spells added to spell list.

Inventory:
Bead of Karma
Ring of Arcane Might
Ring of Wizardry IV
Belt of Magnificence
Orange Ioun Stone
Wand of Celerity

Hat-Trick
2009-06-05, 03:28 PM
Optimizers will say no. If you want to, go ahead, but if you want to be as effective as possible, no. Don't. Dragon disciple is more for meleers who dabble in magic.

kamikasei
2009-06-05, 03:30 PM
In general, it is often worth it to take "a" prestige class. Obviously this depends on the prestige class being good, and the sacrifice of normal class levels being acceptable. The usual example is taking a full-casting PrC in place of wizard levels, as you keep your greatest strength (casting), gain whatever (presumably good) class abilities the PrC gets, and lose only the non-casting class features of the wizard, which aren't too interesting.

Beguiler, on the other hand, does have class features. And Dragon Disciple is a pretty poor PrC. So no, from a power perspective, it's definitely not worth it - class features aside, you're losing out on full casting, which is Not Good At All.

What do you actually want to do with the character, and what's the power level of the game? Maybe some other way to achieve a similar result can be found.

...How are you playing a fire-based Beguiler?

The Glyphstone
2009-06-05, 03:32 PM
Beguiler is one of the handful of classes that are actually quite good taken all the way to 20. That combined with the general medicoreness of DD - a fighter class that tries to pretend its a caster class, and accomplishes neither - is rarely a good option. I'd stick with Beguiler myself, lots of cool goodies to acquire.

Optimystik
2009-06-05, 03:32 PM
Optimizers will say no.

Actually, they say yes. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=986810) In particular, one level of Mindbender will not delay your casting progression and will allow you to put off Advanced Learning for one level so you can grab higher level spells with it.

kamikasei
2009-06-05, 03:34 PM
Actually, they say yes. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=986810)

Optimizers might say "yes, Beguilers can get benefit from at least one level of one particular prestige class". I doubt many would say "Beguilers taking Dragon Disciple is anything other than a bad idea".

darkblust
2009-06-05, 03:42 PM
i have a wand of fireball,which i use allthe time,flaming whip swords,gloves of burning hands,my armor is designed like fire,and my character tends to enjoy playing with fire and enhoys the warmth a little too much....

Well,i guess dragon disciple isnt the class for me,but what would be a good prestige class for my character do u think?

oh yeah,are dm is pretty generous with skills,and we get about double what the normal amount of money/magic is normal:smallbiggrin:im probably the strongest in the party,other then the durned ranger....:smallfrown:

wadledo
2009-06-05, 03:51 PM
I am confused by your lack of syntax, capitalization and use of the space bar.

Other than that, your character isn't going to be getting many fire spells. Ever. So it might be a good idea if you switch to a blaster sorcerer, if your DM allows.

Other than that?
Mindbender.
If you really want the fire theme, a level in Sand Shaper would help with that somewhat, though it's only good for particular builds.

Hat-Trick
2009-06-05, 03:55 PM
Doesn't sound optimized, so dragon disciple wouldn't be too bad. But the problem is it is a melee class masked as a caster class, as stated earlier. I'd do it for a fighter4/Sorc1 for flavor, but beguiler, not so much.

darkblust
2009-06-05, 04:05 PM
Srry for the capitalization and such:smallfrown:i am geatly disgraced by it.

What books do mindbender and sandshaper come from?It probably won't be a problem,since my dm lets us use practically any books we can get our hands on:smallamused:

Have you tried a beguiler?There so fun to play,you should try one if you have'nt already.

Goatman_Ted
2009-06-05, 04:07 PM
If you have the books Heroes of Horror or Sandstorm, each has a prestige class that can add a few fire- or heat-themed spells to your list (Fiend-Blooded and Sand Shaper, respectively).

You could also use Runestaves from the Magic Item Compendium or the Arcane Disciple feat from Complete Divine to add some fire spells to your list.

But it really depends what you want to do. If you want to sneak around and shoot Fireballs out of a wand, Beguiler's a better choice than most.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-05, 04:11 PM
No love for the monstrously overpowered Charop beguiler?

Starbuck_II
2009-06-05, 04:12 PM
Srry for the capitalization and such:smallfrown:i am geatly disgraced by it.

What books do mindbender and sandshaper come from?It probably won't be a problem,since my dm lets us use practically any books we can get our hands on:smallamused:

Have you tried a beguiler?There so fun to play,you should try one if you have'nt already.

Complete Arcane =Mindbender
Sandstorm= Sandshaper

I haven't played Beguiler. I think my bro has PHB 2, but I never really looked at it.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-06-05, 04:15 PM
Srry for the capitalization and such:smallfrown:i am geatly disgraced by it.

What books do mindbender and sandshaper come from?It probably won't be a problem,since my dm lets us use practically any books we can get our hands on:smallamused:

Have you tried a beguiler?There so fun to play,you should try one if you have'nt already.

If you like blasting, Warmage may be more suited to your tastes, as they are very similar to Beguilers, only more blasting and less sneaking. However, yes Beguiler can be extremely broken.

Mindbender is good because it lets you get Mindsight, which is the ultimate "I SEE YOU" ability. As previously mentioned, it also delays your Advanced Learning so you can pick up a higher level spell with it.

Rainbow Servant can be extremely broken at high levels, depending on how your GM rules the casting progression. There's a typo somewhere, because while the Text says "Casting every level", the table shows four levels that do not promote casting, which is crippling. The catch is the capstone, which adds ALL cleric spells to your spell list, which is more than simply broken, easily on par with any form of Polymorph shenanigans. So if you want to be a not-so-minor god at level 16, and your GM rules "Text Over Table", then go ahead and get into it.

Zeta Kai
2009-06-05, 04:21 PM
No love for the monstrously overpowered Charop beguiler?

Well, you never said what your borrowed build actually does. CharOp builds are by-definition optimized, but without sitting there with a dozen splats open & following the progression, it's difficult to figure out what a build is optimized for. So, what does it do, anyway?

kamikasei
2009-06-05, 04:26 PM
Beguilers are great, but it's pretty odd and against-the-grain for one to focus on fire - it doesn't really play to the class' strengths.

It's not really a prestige class you need, but a way to get fire spells onto your spells known, such as with Arcane Disciple. Then I might suggest Archmage - always a good class, though it won't be useful to you until higher levels - and at lower levels, the Firey Burst reserve feat (Complete Mage), which will let you blast people with fire all day long so long as you have one uncast fire spell of the appropriate level available. (I'm assuming that using a Runestaff to get the spell known the fuel the reserve feat would be classed as shenanigans of the highest order?)

Alternatively, or additionally, you could talk to your DM about homebrewing a template or feat or similar to do a couple of things - give you fire resistance or immunity, and/or add some fire spells to your list or give you a fire-based SLA. If he's willing to trade you a caster level or two for it, it'd be more straightforward than mucking about with Arcane Disciple or the like.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-05, 04:35 PM
*maybe not broken at some tables, but clearly the result of a lazy copy/paste jobThe...portugese, maybe...version that came out had full-progression text and table.

Goatman_Ted
2009-06-05, 04:36 PM
No love for the monstrously overpowered Charop beguiler?

That might have something to do with its illegality and rather generous interpretation of Rainbow Servant*.

*Regardless of whether it's balanced at some tables, the 10/10 casting is clearly a copy/paste mistake.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-05, 04:39 PM
That might have something to do with its illegality and rather generous interpretation of Rainbow Servant*.

*Regardless of whether it's balanced at some tables, the 10/10 casting is clearly a copy/paste mistake.

Given that the Brazilian version has 10/10 casting on table and text, I'm inclined to say that the Rainbow Servant PrC's interpretation is correct.


Well, you never said what your borrowed build actually does. CharOp builds are by-definition optimized, but without sitting there with a dozen splats open & following the progression, it's difficult to figure out what a build is optimized for. So, what does it do, anyway?

Cast every cleric spell ever, spontaneously. And the domain spells. And you get the domain abilities.

Gnorman
2009-06-05, 05:06 PM
Cast every cleric spell ever, spontaneously. And the domain spells. And you get the domain abilities.

Yeah, but then you're not really playing a Beguiler. You're playing some hideous abomination, an aborted attempt by the gods to combine the powers of arcane and divine magic into one horrendous whole, able to cast about miracles as if they were afterthoughts and subvert the entire point of entire priesthoods.

In other words: it's complete cheese.

Xallace
2009-06-05, 05:14 PM
You could go Ultimate Magus (from Complete Mage) with your prep side focused on blasting?

Maybe not the most optimal idea, but you get to keep your beguiler spells and pick up some blasty wizard spells. Ambush folks, sew some illusory chaos, drop some burning death, scram.

I'm away from my book so I don't know if you can qualify for it, but Jade Phoenix Mage (Tome of Battle) combines spellcasting with Desert Wind maneuvers if you like, and that could help.

skeeter_dan
2009-06-05, 05:17 PM
No love for the monstrously overpowered Charop beguiler?

What other people said plus it had absolutely nothing to do with the OP's question. The OP asks if he/she should have his/her Beguiler take the Dragon Disciple prestige class. Your automatic response was to copy and paste a cheesy, ludicrous build that you found on the CharOp boards. You neither answered the asked question nor did you provide any helpful information whatsoever.

As an answer to the OP...probably not. Dragon Disciple is not a great prestige class to begin with and it's definitely not designed with a Beguiler in mind. It's a melee class that pretends to be a caster class. A fighter with a sorcerer level or two might find it worthwhile or perhaps a bard, but a beguiler isn't ideal.

TengYt
2009-06-05, 05:23 PM
Beguilers aren't really designed for blasting anyway. If you like using Fire, try a Sorceror or Warmage, you'll get better results.

AslanCross
2009-06-05, 06:50 PM
PrCing can be a good idea depending the build you have in mind. However, Dragon Disciple doesn't improve any of the Beguiler's strengths.

darkblust
2009-06-05, 09:22 PM
I guess i'l just keep with the old wand for now,the snapping capabilities are nice:smalltongue:

Doc Roc
2009-06-05, 09:41 PM
What other people said plus it had absolutely nothing to do with the OP's question. The OP asks if he/she should have his/her Beguiler take the Dragon Disciple prestige class. Your automatic response was to copy and paste a cheesy, ludicrous build that you found on the CharOp boards. You neither answered the asked question nor did you provide any helpful information whatsoever.


Actually, he did answer, from my perspective

It was a No, don't take that one, consider this.
Consider that he may just be quiet, or in a tremendous hurry. He tried to share something he thought was good! And so you should perhaps be less quick to judge us on our play-style choices. That build is a lovely one, and very fun to play, granting you a wide range of options and interesting goodies and greatly expanding your role in the party... though it is in some respects late blooming.

A really over-powered build might look something like this:

Beguiler 5/ Shadow Adept 3/ Shadowcraft mage 5/ Whatever.

Eldariel
2009-06-05, 10:01 PM
Which race are you? Because if you happen to be a Gnome, Shadowcraft Mage [Races of Stone] could enable you to do very much Boom Boom as a Beguiler. If not, life gets a bit harder, but the mentioned Sandshaper [Sandstorm] - it adds a lot of spells to your list, although most of them are Dryness/Sand-themed, but there's some heat-related stuff there too, including a few solid summons. Sandshaper loses 1 level of spellcasting if you take it for the spells, but then you can get back to Beguiler with your new spell list.

If you happen to be a Changeling, Recaster [Races of Eberron] could also serve to teach you a fire-spell or two. And there's always the "Extra Spell"-feat [Complete Arcane], which could (sorta arguably) expand your spell list by a bit. But no, Dragon Disciple isn't really a good way as it gives up your spellcasting.

Dagren
2009-06-05, 10:01 PM
Mindbender is good because it lets you get Mindsight, which is the ultimate "I SEE YOU" ability. As previously mentioned, it also delays your Advanced Learning so you can pick up a higher level spell with it.Off topic, what exactly is that? I don't see anything like that in the book, just some rather sub-par abilities. (I mean, really? A CL 1 dominate person?)

Aneantir
2009-06-05, 10:06 PM
Off topic, what exactly is that? I don't see anything like that in the book, just some rather sub-par abilities. (I mean, really? A CL 1 dominate person?)

Well, Mindsight is a feat originally found in Lords of Madness. It's a sneaky little bugger, tucked away from the rest of the feats in the book because people didn;'t want players to find it.

What it does is it gives you the ability to detect anything with an intelligence score within the radius of your telepathy ability. In addition, you get to know the level of intelligence the detected being is at.

It's rediculously good.

Dagren
2009-06-05, 10:15 PM
Well, Mindsight is a feat originally found in Lords of Madness. It's a sneaky little bugger, tucked away from the rest of the feats in the book because people didn;'t want players to find it.

What it does is it gives you the ability to detect anything with an intelligence score within the radius of your telepathy ability. In addition, you get to know the level of intelligence the detected being is at.

It's rediculously good.Ah, I see, it's not a part of the Mindbender per se, but a synergy that can be set up with it. Thanks.

monty
2009-06-05, 10:23 PM
So if you want to be a not-so-minor god at level 16

Or level 11. Because really, if you're going to play a character like that, why not go all the way and start RS at level 2?

Human with two flaws: Versatile Spellcaster, Heighten Spell, Earth Sense, Earth Spell. Versatile Spellcaster gives you second level slots, Heighten + Earth Spell makes them third. The only other requirement is 4 ranks in Knowledge: Arcana. Done.

Oh, and then chaos shuffle those feats later when you don't need them anymore.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-05, 10:25 PM
Or level 11. Because really, if you're going to play a character like that, why not go all the way and start RS at level 2?

Human with two flaws: Versatile Spellcaster, Heighten Spell, Earth Sense, Earth Spell. Versatile Spellcaster gives you second level slots, Heighten + Earth Spell makes them third. The only other requirement is 4 ranks in Knowledge: Arcana. Done.

Oh, and then chaos shuffle those feats later when you don't need them anymore....

*slowclap* I knew about abusing, say, Versatile Spellcaster with Heighten to get into Mystic Theurge early, but I hadn't though of tossing in Earth Sense and Earth Spell. Not possible without flaws, but very nice. I am ignoring the Chaos Shuffle shenanigans, though, since that's blatant abusive TO.

Telonius
2009-06-05, 11:21 PM
Surprised nobody's suggested this yet ... if you're looking for a dragon-themed PrC to dip, one level of Master of Masks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070105a&page=3) would do it. Take the Dragon mask, and any other mask of your choice (Gladiator is a favorite of mine).


Dragon: This multihued mask of precious metals and scintillating gemstones forms the terrible visage of a snarling wyrm. A sunburst of metallic and bejeweled scales flares out around the reptilian face.

Three times per day you can breathe a cone of fire as a standard action. The cone is 30 feet long and deals 2d8 points of fire damage. A successful Reflex save (DC 10 + your master of masks level + your Cha modifier) halves the damage dealt. Once you use this ability, you can't use it again for 1d4 rounds. As you advance in the class, you can deal additional damage with this ability: 4d8 points at 4th level, 6d8 at 7th level, and 10d8 at 10th level.

Your alignment appears to be neutral evil while you wear a dragon mask.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-06-05, 11:31 PM
Actually, although it completely ruins your casting progression, Pyrokeneticist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/pyrokineticist.htm) is exactly what you want. Unlimited fire, unlimited fun. Granted, you won't be able to use everything from the class, assuming you blow a feat for the PP to get into the class you won't be using Fire Walk much, but you'll still get Hands Afire, Flame Lash, Fire Bolt, Weapon Afire... all for a 4 level splash.

Granted, that keeps you from ever casting 9th level spells, pre-epic, but if all you want to do is burn things...

Waspinator
2009-06-06, 01:49 AM
I've never understood Pyrokineticist. Who exactly is supposed to take it? As you said, it ruins manifester and/or caster progression.

Doc Roc
2009-06-06, 01:59 AM
It's a shame they Protected the silver flame pyromancer by prohibiting list-casters from using it. Is Prestige Paladin similarly protected?

Leon
2009-06-06, 07:57 AM
It can be, some would argue that some classes can exist without them and some cannot but that choice is up to you to choose, if you feel that X PrC is going to work for your idea then don't let anyone (save your DM) stop you.

darkblust
2009-06-06, 07:58 AM
I'll probably either take mage of the arcane order,which gives me access to the sorcerer/wizard spell list,and i gain my caster level:smallsmile: ,or i'll take the sndshaper class or whatever it was called.Or both:smallcool: ,beacause i already have the stuff i wanted most from beguiler anyway.

raptor1056
2009-06-06, 08:18 AM
I once created a sort of Warlock-esque Pyrokineticist base class. I'll post it if I find it. It was a little underpowered, if I remember correctly, but was hella fun.

Optimystik
2009-06-06, 10:36 AM
I've never understood Pyrokineticist. Who exactly is supposed to take it? As you said, it ruins manifester and/or caster progression.

It's a gish PrC. You can easily enter with Psywarrior 5, which nets you 2 bonus feats. Soulknife can get in too, for what it's worth. Craft (Alchemy) is cross for both, but you only need 1 rank.

Chronos
2009-06-06, 02:29 PM
*slowclap* I knew about abusing, say, Versatile Spellcaster with Heighten to get into Mystic Theurge early, but I hadn't though of tossing in Earth Sense and Earth Spell. Not possible without flaws, but very nice. I am ignoring the Chaos Shuffle shenanigans, though, since that's blatant abusive TO.With enough flaws (I think it takes about 10 of them), you can technically cast 9th-level spells as a 1st-level character.