4E - Wizards and Daggers

[TedEBearNC]

I was playing around with a wizard build and was thinking of taking the Arcane Implement Proficiency feat to use a dagger as a second implement then taking Focused Expertise (dagger) and Dual Implement Spellcaster, but once I got to looking at it there seemed to be no good daggers geared towards wizards. There's a couple of sorcerer and bard daggers and a Channel Divinity dagger but nothing for a Wizard. The only one I see is geared toward a MC wizard.

Of the rest, most require you to either make a melee attack (specifically stated) with it or to "hit" with the weapon which makes it sound like an actual weapon/melee power attack but is not stated specifically so, so it could be a hit with another attack type made using the weapon. The rest are even more ambiguous, stating "when you make an attack with this weapon". Does that mean a physical/melee power attack.. or does that include other types of attack powers?

[Atcote]

I get the impression that when it says 'when you make an attack with this weapon', it means a physical attack as opposed to merely using the object as an impliment - as in, the weapon has to touch the opponet (and let's not have any 'But what about bows?' arguements here).

It sounds like a homebrew affair to me - discuss it with your DM to see if they or you can develop a good balanced Wizard dagger. Yeah, interpretations here, for the mean time, seem to have to be inhouse only...

[cupkeyk]

Look up Cunning from AV, add a phrenic crown and spell focus and your opponents have -3 to their will saves at level 8. Sleep, Prismatic spray, Legion's Hold.

[Starsinger]

I get the impression that when it says 'when you make an attack with this weapon', it means a physical attack as opposed to merely using the object as an impliment - as in, the weapon has to touch the opponet

Well, see you're wrong, after all, Swordmages use swords as implements too, it'd be awfully sucky if they couldn't use them because "when you make an attack" meant physical attacks only.

So yes, you can use a Vorpal Dagger to shoot Magic Missile if you'd like.

[Asbestos]

Well, see you're wrong, after all, Swordmages use swords as implements too, it'd be awfully sucky if they couldn't use them because "when you make an attack" meant physical attacks only.

So yes, you can use a Vorpal Dagger to shoot Magic Missile if you'd like.

Hmm... but a majority of Swordmage attacks are 'Weapon, Implement' attacks, not just 'Implement'. The issue with Swordmages is... does my Vorpal Longsword work with Swordburst and Lightning Lure.

[Yakk]

What swordmage attack is a Weapon and Implement attack?

[Mando Knight]

So yes, you can use a Vorpal Dagger to shoot Magic Missile if you'd like.

...Except that Vorpal can't be put on a dagger in 4E. A Vorpal Longsword could do it, though...

Why a dagger? Staves are better for Wizards, as are Tomes, Orbs, and Wands. There's also Longswords for Eladrin Wizards (they don't have to blow a feat), Wizard/Swordmages, etc. that go into the Spiral Tower Paragon Path.

[NPCMook]

Hmm... but a majority of Swordmage attacks are 'Weapon, Implement' attacks, not just 'Implement'. The issue with Swordmages is... does my Vorpal Longsword work with Swordburst and Lightning Lure.

Actually, its either Weapon, or Implement, not both


...Except that Vorpal can't be put on a dagger in 4E. A Vorpal Longsword could do it, though...

Why a dagger? Staves are better for Wizards, as are Tomes, Orbs, and Wands. There's also Longswords for Eladrin Wizards (they don't have to blow a feat), Wizard/Swordmages, etc. that go into the Spiral Tower Paragon Path.

Well remember Wizard of the Spiral Tower allows you to simply use the Longsword in place of one of your implements, like a Staff Wizard can use a Longsword to gain his Staff benefits.

[Mando Knight]

Well remember Wizard of the Spiral Tower allows you to simply use the Longsword in place of one of your implements, like a Staff Wizard can use a Longsword to gain his Staff benefits.

Which then makes a Longsword better than a Dagger because then the Wizard benefits from Implement Mastery.

[Thanatos 51-50]

As I understand the weapons-as-impliments rules:
A +1 Quarterstaff is both a +1 Weapon and a +1 Implimnet.

When using a power with the Weapon keyword, you use the bonus you may have from Weapon Expertise (Staffs), as well as your proficency bonus

When using a power with the Impliment keyword, you use the bonus you may get ffrom Impliment Expertise (Staff)

I see no reason to that a Swordmage, for example, can't have Weapon Expertise (Heavy Blades) and Impliment Expertise (Longswords).

A Wizard of the Spiral Tower, treats his longsword as an staff impliment would need Weapon Expertise (Heavy Blades) and Impliment Expertise (Staff) to acquire the same benefits.

Likewise, if the description states "Spell", it counts for any Arcane Power source. "Exploit" is any martial Power source, "Evocation" is any Primal power source, et. cetera.

[TedEBearNC]

Why a dagger? Staves are better for Wizards, as are Tomes, Orbs, and Wands....

Just an exercise in flavor/concept. I'm building a gnome Illusionist and since Phantom Bolt doesn't benefit from Reaper's Touch I was looking to see if I could improve the melee basic attack for those times something might get too close and/or he can make an opportunity attack. Using a dagger as an implement with Focused Expertise would let him use the bonus on both the melee basic and arcane attacks. Then he could use an Orb of Deception in his off-hand for a damage bonus with Dual Implement Spellcaster. Using a staff as a weapon requires two hands thus would mean dropping or putting away the orb to make a melee attack. Not that I plan on being in melee but it does happen.

Of course, doing this would use up more feats than if I didn't but I was just wondering if it could be done.

[Mando Knight]

Then you're sacrificing a bunch of feats to try to do something that you should leave to a Defender or Martial character: fighting up front. You're a Wizard. You should sit back and fire off your spells, only coming forward to use close blast/burst spells. If a situation where you, a Wizard, need a threatening basic melee attack comes up, something's already wrong.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Of the rest, most require you to either make a melee attack (specifically stated) with it or to "hit" with the weapon which makes it sound like an actual weapon/melee power attack but is not stated specifically so, so it could be a hit with another attack type made using the weapon. The rest are even more ambiguous, stating "when you make an attack with this weapon". Does that mean a physical/melee power attack.. or does that include other types of attack powers?
So, here's the general rules for Weapons-as-Implements
- When you use it as a Weapon, you get the Proficiency Bonus and the Enchantment Bonus
- When you use it as an Implement, you just get the Enchantment Bonus

In short, the item counts as either a Weapon or an Implement depending on what power you're using it with.

When you are using a Weapon-As-Implement, the only features you can use are "any bonuses listed under Enhancement, Critical and Property" (PHB FAQ #17) (http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1396). So you couldn't use the At-Will power of a Flaming Longsword to fire Flaming Magic Missiles. However, you can deal xd12 Critical Damage with a Vorpal Longsword used as an implement.

[Starsinger]

So, here's the general rules for Weapons-as-Implements
- When you use it as a Weapon, you get the Proficiency Bonus and the Enchantment Bonus
- When you use it as an Implement, you just get the Proficiency Bonus

In short, the item counts as either a Weapon or an Implement depending on what power you're using it with.

When you are using a Weapon-As-Implement, the only features you can use are "any bonuses listed under Enhancement, Critical and Property" (PHB FAQ #17) (http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1396). So you couldn't use the At-Will power of a Flaming Longsword to fire Flaming Magic Missiles. However, you can deal xd12 Critical Damage with a Vorpal Longsword used as an implement.

Yeah, what Oracle Hunter said... although to me, that looks an awful lot like, "Yes, Starsinger was right." :smalltongue:

[Mando Knight]

- When you use it as an Implement, you just get the Proficiency Bonus

You get the Enchantment bonus. You don't get the Proficiency bonus for using a weapon as an implement.

[Oracle_Hunter]

You get the Enchantment bonus. You don't get the Proficiency bonus for using a weapon as an implement.
Oops :smallredface:

Well, at least it was an obvious slip. I've edited the original to clear up the confusion.

@Starsinger - Well, I did add sources :smalltongue: