Now THAT is lawful stupid

[Zerg Cookie]

I mean, seriously, attack Xykon?!
O-Chul should be thankful he is somehow alive! (Even with his super CON score, he took way too much damage already)...

Discuss O-Chul's stupidity to (his) death.

[Eloel]

I mean, seriously, attack Xykon?!
O-Chul should be thankful he is somehow alive! (Even with his super CON score, he took way too much damage already)...

Discuss O-Chul's stupidity to (his) death.

O-Chul is not stupid, he's trying to earn time for Blackwing.

[Zombie Nixon]

At the very worst, he'll buy time for Blackwing

and it's not like he has a chance in hell of escaping anyway, he might as well do as much damage as he can to Xykon.

[Estelindis]

Exactly. He's trying to delay Xykon as much as he can so that Blackwing has a chance to drop the phylactery into the Rift.

[SPoD]

I mean, seriously, attack Xykon?!
O-Chul should be thankful he is somehow alive! (Even with his super CON score, he took way too much damage already)...

Discuss O-Chul's stupidity to (his) death.

Yeah, you don't know what you're talking about. The attack is a sacrifice to give Blackwing more time before Xykon notices him. But he doesn't think for one moment that he's going to live through it when he starts.

And it works. Xykon spends, what, one or two rounds occupied with them before looking up to see Blackwing already at the rift.

Sacrificing your life so that you can buy time for someone else to destroy a great evil is anything but stupid, it's incredibly brave and selfless.

[Jolly Giant]

I'm sure O'Chul knows he can't defeat Zykon with a stone as his only weapon. He is sacrificing himself in order to buy Blackwing some time.

[derfenrirwolv]

Its not about living, its about WINNING.

Getting hit with the spell cost Xykon the time he could have used to catch blackwing.

[SnowballMan]

I mean, seriously, attack Xykon?!
O-Chul should be thankful he is somehow alive! (Even with his super CON score, he took way too much damage already)...

Discuss O-Chul's stupidity to (his) death.
Remember also that Paladins are immune to fear. And as Redcloak mentioned this potentially can effect their world view. After all, how hard is it to be cavalier about your own life, when you have absolute certainty that there is a next one?

[Morty]

Besides, as mentioned, O-Chul's chances for survial would be slim at best if he did't attack Xykon. What with being armorless, unarmed and wounded in the middle of enemy territory.

[Paragraph]

Obviously, V is lawful stupid enough to follow O-Chul without argument.

...wait, V isn't lawful. How inconsiderate of me.

Simon

[Lord_Gareth]

Plus, if O-Chul was alive before the edition change, he may still be operating under the paladin oath that forbids retreating in the face of battle. Remember, in Azure City, it's about honor, not sense.

(Besides, it was bad-ass).

[darkriku2000]

what everybody else said

[SSGW Priest]

Besides, as mentioned, O-Chul's chances for survial would be slim at best if he did't attack Xykon. What with being armorless, unarmed and wounded in the middle of enemy territory.

Armorless, unarmed, and wounded in the middle of enemy territory just means O-Chul has them were he right where he wants them. :smallwink:

[Often Normal]

Attacking the "inefficient" actions of a recent forum favourite character with a side mention of alignment?

There be trolls in this here Playground!

[Johel]

Obviously, V is lawful stupid enough to follow O-Chul without argument.

...wait, V isn't lawful. How inconsiderate of me.

Simon

V doesn't
s/he jsut hasn't time to ask.
By the time his/her mouth opens, O-chul's already gone berzerk.

Also, +5 for the last panel.
This joke hadn't come out for a while.
And it can also finish Xykon by pushing him through the hole.

[Talyn]

Fun fact - Xykon thought the same thing as the OP. O-chul did that on purpose.

Why? Because Xyknon LOVES being better, smarter, and more vicious than his opponents. When they do something he considers to be overproud or otherwise stupid, he stops to gloat. EVERY TIME.

O-chul knew that the gloating would buy precious seconds.

[Tempest Fennac]

Talking is a free action, so the gloting wouldn't matter according to the rules as written.

[NerfTW]

I mean, seriously, attack Xykon?!
O-Chul should be thankful he is somehow alive! (Even with his super CON score, he took way too much damage already)...

Discuss O-Chul's stupidity to (his) death.

So what, precisely, would his other options have been? He's already dead, and right now his only concern is making sure to deal a blow to Xykon's immortality.

[Yehomer]

Also, every time he gloats, he also casts a spell in the same round... so no time wasted there.

[charl]

V doesn't
s/he jsut hasn't time to ask.
By the time his/her mouth opens, O-chul's already gone berzerk.

Also, +5 for the last panel.
This joke hadn't come out for a while.
And it can also finish Xykon by pushing him through the hole.

It shouldn't. Xykon is on the castle side of the explosion source so he should be thrown back there, unless there's some factor I haven't considered.


Also, every time he gloats, he also casts a spell in the same round... so no time wasted there.

Yeah, he does cast a spell... at O'Chul and V. If he hadn't been so busy showing off he might have spent those rounds casting spells at the bird instead.

[the_tick_rules]

That physics operate on the giants whim?

[Lord_Gareth]

That physics operate on the giants whim?

No, that physics operates on D&D's whim. Unless the spells says it knocks you back (Explosive Runes does not), it won't.

[thevorpalbunny]

The Snarl gets bigger every time something falls in IIRC. I'd imagine a phylactery might qualify. Also, Explosive Runes won't knock him backward. It is quite possible it will cause the Snarl to grow and swallow both.

[Ancalagon]

The Snarl gets bigger every time something falls in IIRC. I'd imagine a phylactery might qualify. Also, Explosive Runes won't knock him backward. It is quite possible it will cause the Snarl to grow and swallow both.

The explosion will kill the bird and let the phylactery fall (into the snarl). Why should Xykon fall?

He'll eat damage and scream "Noooo!" as he watches his phylactery vanishing in slow motion into the purple swirl...

[TheSummoner]

or better yet, it drops, and he catches it, but as soon as he lets out a sigh of relief, a single tiny purple snarl-tentacle reaches out and pierces it right as it dangles in his hand. Cue the big no and the F bomb.

[TheFallenOne]

O-Chul is not stupid, he's trying to earn time for Blackwing.

It seems everyone is agreeing with this, but I think it is just wrong. If Ol' Chul ran away, letting Xykon believe he still had the phylactery, he would have bought more time

[Dr. Cthulwho]

I mean, seriously, attack Xykon?!
O-Chul should be thankful he is somehow alive! (Even with his super CON score, he took way too much damage already)...

Discuss O-Chul's stupidity to (his) death.

So it would have been lawful smart to try climbing down the tower fully visible thus giving Xykon more time to notice Blackwing and blast him, as opposed to distracting Xykon and keeping him away from the hole for a few valuable seconds?

And O-Chul never imagined he would do anything but die out of his cage, the important thing was to do as much damage as possible first. Why would he change that plan now when it is still working?

[Sotris]

You know, it will be fun to see if the course of events gets Xykon to a place where he can own up to his own words and gloating. He's pretty calm and suave in battle, as long as he knows that he'll be regenerated even after defeat... but it only took Soon to mention the phylactery, for him to completely lose his cool and panic.

Imagine him losing his phylactery, AND having to soak up a nice 6d6: It will get him really close to permanent and irreversible Death. And he'll then have to face a wizard and a paladin- both also battered like him, and certainly weaker, so the odds are still to his favor- but they'll only have to be lucky once. And it's Game Over.

Will he 'have the balls to stay in the game'?

[Snake-Aes]

It seems everyone is agreeing with this, but I think it is just wrong. If Ol' Chul ran away, letting Xykon believe he still had the phylactery, he would have bought more time

Where would he run away to? Down the wall? He'd either fall to his death or proceed too slowly. Either case also allows a clear and quick sight of the bird.
The other option is towards, guess, Xykon!

[Castamir]

What's wrong with jumping off a tall tower if you do that alongside a wizard? Feather fall tends to occupy one of those lowest-level, usually useless, spell slots.

[Ancalagon]

What's wrong with jumping off a tall tower if you do that alongside a wizard? Feather fall tends to occupy one of those lowest-level, usually useless, spell slots.

The flying lich who follows you and shoots meteors and stuff might be wrong with that. :)

[Dr. Cthulwho]

What's wrong with jumping off a tall tower if you do that alongside a wizard? Feather fall tends to occupy one of those lowest-level, usually useless, spell slots.

Well O-Chul doesn't know V has it, and didn't really give V a chance to come up with an alternate strategy.

Of course distracting Xykon for a little while is the best option, he probably wasn't anticipating Xykon just stopping them like that. He probably thought he might get Xykon to waste time casting another couple of damage dealing spells and knocking him out like before.

Plus the problem remains Xykon follows easily, zaps them in an even weaker position (climbing/feather falling) or spots the bird and goes after it.

[EmperorSarda]

Not to mention that they wouldn't have gotten far considering Xykon was right behind them as they charged.

So distracting the Lich is better than running away, or jumping out of the tower. Especially if Xykon decided to go after the bird first instead of V and O'Chule.

[Jagos]

What worries me is what the MiTD may do if he sees O-Chul die...

[Optimystik]

or better yet, it drops, and he catches it, but as soon as he lets out a sigh of relief, a single tiny purple snarl-tentacle reaches out and pierces it right as it dangles in his hand. Cue the big no and the F bomb.

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUU- (http://ragetiem.com/)

[Gamgee]

At the very worst, he'll buy time for Blackwing

and it's not like he has a chance in hell of escaping anyway, he might as well do as much damage as he can to Xykon.

+10

You summed up my opinions on the matter.

[tKircher]

Its not about living, its about WINNING.

Welcome to the Evil spectrum. Wasn't that Xykon's strategy?

[Dork Lord]

Welcome to the Evil spectrum. Wasn't that Xykon's strategy?

No, Xykon's too in love with the sound of his own voice to sacrifice himself for any cause. As Xykon said, O-Chul has some serious +5 Holy Cojones.

[Callista]

Yeah, paladins can get pretty reckless, as can anyone who knows he's assured a desirable afterlife. As can characters who've been resurrected a couple of times. As can, for that matter, liches with their phylacteries. Death doesn't have quite the same meaning in the D&D universe as it does in our world.

If I were teaching a bunch of proto-paladins how to wear the shining armor, I'd be very careful to say something along the lines of, "Yes, you can spend your life to advance a cause; yes, it's heroic. But you have only one life, and you've dedicated it to your cause; and if you don't spend it wisely, you'll be guilty of mismanagement. So think carefully."

I don't know whether that would be Azure City's style, to tell that to young paladins; but I'm pretty sure O-Chul probably knows it well enough. It's just that at this point the stakes are simply so high that the good O-chul could do with the rest of his life, if he kept it, has become a rather minor consideration.

[Steward]

Plus, he had like, 2 seconds. It's easier for us since there are several days between each strip and lots and lots of time to go over all kinds of plans and strategies, but the characters don't get that kind of luxury so I can't really call them "stupid" for not coming up with the best possible plan in roughly 2 seconds.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Welcome to the Evil spectrum. Wasn't that Xykon's strategy?

That would be "It's all about living, and winning, and killing."

[TheSummoner]

Exactly... at this point, O'Chul has minimal hope of survival, so hes going to do the most he possibly can with the time he has left. If he fails, the forces of good are no worse off, but if he succeeds, he has struck a major blow against evil.

[JT Jag]

He forced Xykon to waste one combat round dealing with them before he could go off after the familiar.

[Porthos]

Talking is a free action, so the gloting wouldn't matter according to the rules as written.

It isn't always, you know. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html) :smalltongue:

[RS14]

Xykon has DR15/Bludgeoning and Magic, so a smite attack probably would have been sufficient to deal at least some damage. If O'Chul had ever gotten Magic Fang cast permanently on himself (3000gp), he could ignore the DR completely.

Also, the Explosive Runes won't be enough to destroy a typical Phylactery. As this is an amulet, I don't know... I'm guessing that a Phylactery has double hardness and hp. Using Stone as a guideline, then , the amulet has hardness 16 and 15 to 30 hp, depending on thickness. Explosive Runes might destroy it outright, but it seems unlikely.

Edit: Falling damage, however, might be sufficient to finish it off, if objects receive damage equal to the falling damage they inflict. It would need to fall 210ft just to have the potential to damage it. I'm not sure how tall the tower is, but a 500ft fall, for reference, would deal on average 8.5 points of damage after bypassing hardness.

[MReav]

I think the Explosive Runes are to give it concussive force to chuck it into the rift.

[Aetthyng]

Sooo... why didn't blackwing just chuck it in the rift? I mean technically there ARE some options Xykon has to disable the runes or catch it before it falls, no? It probably won't turn out that way but why did V and O'Chul take the risk?

[Dork Lord]

I think the class feature- er, Blackwing is hypnotized by the rift.

[EmeraldPhoenix]

I think we've all just said the same thing about 30 different ways now. Can we just close the thread or what? Here, I'll sum it up:

O-Chul was stalling for time while Blackwing destroyed the phylactery.

Now nobody else has to post it again.

[Sinfire Titan]

V prepared Explosive Explosive Runes this morning? That would propel hsi familiar into the rift, and Xykon away from the familiar. Blackwing wouldn't drop the amulet, because Explosive Runes can't deal enough damage (even with 1/2 V's max HP, his familiar hasn't been damaged the entire fight with Xykon, and is thus at max HP). The rift would kill his familiar, but that's a worthy sacrifice to take out the phylactery.

[The_Void]

He's not Lawful Stupid, he's Lawful Badass.

[dancrilis]

Hmm ...

So it is the view of the forum that O-Chul, went to punch Xykon to buy the bird time.

Hmm ...
That seems a bit weak to me.

Here lets give an example.

O-Chul starts climbing down the tower, Xykon has to follow him, O-Chul falls/is knocked to the bottom of the tower, Xykon follows to retrieve the phylactery, the bird has had ample time to destroy it.

Lets have another example.

O-Chul starts a fight with Xykon after sending V to scale the tower, Xykon has to beat him then follow V after wondering where the phylactery is, the bird has had ample time to destroy it.


The simple fact is any action O-Chul could have taken would have good and bad bits attached to it, stating that O-Chul had X plan for Y reason seems a bit odd.

If O-Chul had started to climb down he likely would have generated a topic regarding his cowardish and the supporters would be explaining his perfect logic and how it was all part of the plan.

But O-Chul is not perfect he is merely doing the best he can, and he is a fighter/paladin his instincts are to hit something evil when he is unsure about the best course of action.

[Callista]

V prepared Explosive Explosive Runes this morning? That would propel hsi familiar into the rift, and Xykon away from the familiar. Blackwing wouldn't drop the amulet, because Explosive Runes can't deal enough damage (even with 1/2 V's max HP, his familiar hasn't been damaged the entire fight with Xykon, and is thus at max HP). The rift would kill his familiar, but that's a worthy sacrifice to take out the phylactery.I don't think so. Explosive Runes doesn't throw anybody anywhere; it just does force damage. (That's by the rules. Storywise, it may be different.) From what we know about V and his familiar, Blackwing would take damage, which is likely to either knock him out or kill him.

Explosive runes is 6d6, average damage 21, max damage 36.
If V is level 14 with a 10 CON, then Blackwing has on average 18 hit points. If he takes average damage from Explosive Runes, he's unconscious and for all practical purposes dead. It is, however, possible for Blackwing to survive. If V has a higher CON (average damage for V with a 12 CON would leave the raven conscious), a low damage roll for the runes, or good HP rolls for V, Blackwing could survive.

It could go either way. Which means that the local comic artist gets to make it go whichever way the plot demands.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Explosive Spell metamagic feat knocks people out to the boundary of the spell.

[Kish]

Hmm ...

So it is the view of the forum

This mode of thought always mystifies me. There is no "view of the forum" on this or any other issue. We're a collection of individuals, not a hive.

that O-Chul, went to punch Xykon to buy the bird time.

Hmm ...
That seems a bit weak to me.

Here lets give an example.

Both your examples seem weighted to support your viewpoint, though. Let me make one small change to each of them.


O-Chul starts climbing down the tower, Xykon

sees the bird flying away with his phylactery as soon as he looks out through the hole in the wall and ignores O-Chul and Vaarsuvius until he's retrieved his phylactery.


O-Chul starts a fight with Xykon after sending V to scale the tower, Xykon has to beat him then

look after Vaarsuvius, immediately see the bird with his phylactery, and retrieve it before going after Vaarsuvius.

I don't think O-Chul thought he had any chance of defeating Xykon physically with his bare hands. If he did...then I'm afraid I'd have to say the word "stupid" could be accurately, if undiplomatically, used to describe his mindset at the time.

[Sinfire Titan]

I don't think so. Explosive Runes doesn't throw anybody anywhere; it just does force damage. (That's by the rules. Storywise, it may be different.) From what we know about V and his familiar, Blackwing would take damage, which is likely to either knock him out or kill him.

Explosive runes is 6d6, average damage 21, max damage 36.
If V is level 14 with a 10 CON, then Blackwing has on average 18 hit points. If he takes average damage from Explosive Runes, he's unconscious and for all practical purposes dead. It is, however, possible for Blackwing to survive. If V has a higher CON (average damage for V with a 12 CON would leave the raven conscious), a low damage roll for the runes, or good HP rolls for V, Blackwing could survive.

It could go either way. Which means that the local comic artist gets to make it go whichever way the plot demands.

You misunderstood. I meant he applied the Explosive Spell feat to Explosive Runes.

[Xorbon]

I'm sure O'Chul knows he can't defeat Zykon with a stone as his only weapon. He is sacrificing himself in order to buy Blackwing some time.

That's not a stone, it's his fist. That's how the Giant draws a fist for his stick figure characters.

[Moff Chumley]

Wait, wait, guys. We have it all wrong. The Explosive Rune isn't meant for Xykon, it's meant for The Snarl! When the Snarl touches the phylactery, the explosion will launch Blackwing towards Xykon, temporarily blinding him and causing him, out of confusion, to turn back towards the tower, where O-Chul and V knew they would be frozen. In Xykon's anger at his phylactery being destroyed, he's going to unfreeze our heroes to shout at them. O-Chul shall then take that opportunity to summon his mount... MITD! Then, While Xykon battles MitD, V says the right four words to the right person for the wrong reason: little did he/she know, Jimi Hendrix's ghost was in the room invisibly, and when V mutters the ancient elven prayer "Poo'r Palhys Enma Mah'nd," Hendrix's ghost thinks V is asking him for help, so he teleports V and O-Chul to 1967, where V becomes the head of the Illuminati, thus achieving ultimate arcane power, because everyone knows that everyone in the Illuminati are wizards. V then organizes the assassination of JFK, believing him to be Xykon's disguise. Then, O-Chul catches on the V's plan and tries to shoot the assassin, but is thrown offgaurd when the grassy knoll (aka MitD) eats the assassin, causing him to...

OH MY GAWD, O-CHUL IS THE SECOND SHOOTER!

[dancrilis]

This mode of thought always mystifies me. There is no "view of the forum" on this or any other issue. We're a collection of individuals, not a hive.
It arises from the baseless theory that other forum users don't actually exist and are simple computer generated with the intention of providing the user with the feeling of a community.



Both your examples seem weighted to support your viewpoint, though.
That is not possible as I don't have a viewpoint on the issue of O-Chul's actions here.



sees the bird flying away with his phylactery as soon as he looks out through the hole in the wall and ignores O-Chul and Vaarsuvius until he's retrieved his phylactery.

look after Vaarsuvius, immediately see the bird with his phylactery, and retrieve it before going after Vaarsuvius.

Exactly, perfectly possible, and if it had happened that why then there would(might) be people saying:
O-Chul was a coward that ran away.

And other people saying:
No it was O-Chul's plan to draw Xykon away, how was he to know that Xykon would be chasing a random previously unseen bird.

Alternatively if Xykon had chased O-Chul.
There would(might) be people saying:
O-Chul was a coward that ran away.

And other people saying:
No it was O-Chul's plan to draw Xykon away from the bird and it worked temporally.

Ascribing plans to O-Chul based off no information leaves me slightly confused.



I don't think O-Chul thought he had any chance of defeating Xykon physically with his bare hands. If he did...then I'm afraid I'd have to say the word "stupid" could be accurately, if undiplomatically, used to describe his mindset at the time.
It depends on his strenght score, lets say 14, and lets say he has some method of dealing lethal damage (level of monk, a feat, whatever).
Lets say level 12 (Fighter 8/Palidin 4).
3 attacks, 1d4 +2 each, bludgening.
Assuming they all hit thats 3d4 +6 damage in one round, or 15 damage.

Backed up by whatever V can do (unknown to O-Chul), taking down Xykon might have seemed on the cards of he got very very lucky, depending on how damaged Xykon was already.

To me it seems like a fairly simple scenario, he decided to give everything he had to killing Xykon because it was the most obvious course of action available to him.

Redcloak or V might have analysed the situation and determained what they felt was the most prudent courses of action, this was O-Chul's charge moment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0105.html).

[archon_huskie]

That is tactical brilliance! Followed by V's own tactical brilliance!

[Foryn Gilnith]

O-Chul starts a fight with Xykon after sending V to scale the tower, Xykon has to beat him then follow V after wondering where the phylactery is, the bird has had ample time to destroy it.

Right now this may have been the situation, more or less. It's uncertain from the drawing whether or not V meant to stay and fight; Xykon would have caught her in Mass Hold Person anyway.

[paladinofshojo]

If putting duty over self-preservation is "lawful stupid" then all paladins will immediately fall into that category

[Njord]

don't understand why people keep saying that O-chul is right trying to make the most "damage as possible" , since there is NO one coming or even near Azure city at the moment that could actually take advantage off. And if Xykon is as smart as he seems, he doesn't even need redcloak to heal him since there are some arcane spells that could do that taking advantage of his undead subtype. (and tsukiko is still alive.. and redcloak just out of the game for a while).

Making "the most damage as possible" in Xykon is absolutely stupid. Specially when you know (as he does) that he wont be able to finish him.

I agree though that trying to buy precious seconds for BW is not a stupid action at all, just is not also justifiable to say that about "damage" thing.

[waterpenguin43]

I think that O-Chul coudn't do much to escape and was good trying to buy Blackwing time, but he should have thought it over and at least tried to get Vaarsivus out alive.

[Kaytara]

don't understand why people keep saying that O-chul is right trying to make the most "damage as possible" , since there is NO one coming or even near Azure city at the moment that could actually take advantage off. And if Xykon is as smart as he seems, he doesn't even need redcloak to heal him since there are some arcane spells that could do that taking advantage of his undead subtype. (and tsukiko is still alive.. and redcloak just out of the game for a while).

Making "the most damage as possible" in Xykon is absolutely stupid. Specially when you know (as he does) that he wont be able to finish him.

I agree though that trying to buy precious seconds for BW is not a stupid action at all, just is not also justifiable to say that about "damage" thing.

A valid point, but we're not really talking about literal hitpoint damage - more about the possibility of destroying the phylactery. By staying to fight and distract Xykon, O-Chul improves Blackwing's chances of destroying the phylactery in time and causing damage to Xykon THAT way. We may argue that O-Chul's idea was not the most practically plausible one, but given that he only had a few seconds to come up with it, it doesn't seem bad.


This mode of thought always mystifies me. There is no "view of the forum" on this or any other issue. We're a collection of individuals, not a hive.

And what mystifies me is that you always seem to take that expression so strangely literally. Does it really matter all that much whether someone says "general consensus" or "view of the forum" instead of "most people who have so far posted seem to be of the opinion" ??? The latter is for those who want to get really technical and nitpicky about language and while you're welcome to post that way if it suits you, in my opinion it is not good taste to criticize those who do not share such preferences. Now, I actually agreed with your position on this in some past cases, but here it's rather ridiculous, since people really HAVE been saying pretty much the same thing phrased each time in a different manner.