Xykon should be dead... but he won't be.

[JeptCloak]

Doing some quick math for the damage he's taken to this point (Empowered Sunburst, Crushing Hand for 1 round, backlash damage from Superb Dispelling, plus whatever else damage the non-mentioned spells did, let's assume zero for them), I mean that adds up... if you add in non-savable Runes damage, he should be pretty much dead, and then how is he supposed to survive the fall damage, which should be substantial? I'm thinking it would be best if he didn't, and the amulet somehow let's him return at a later point... probably emerging from Girard's gate....

[Tempest Fennac]

I don't think he'd take Falling damage unless Explosive Runes was able to somehow Dispell it, and Xykon is out of level 5 spells (he could cast Over Land Flight while falling if I remember the rules correctly). I'll need to check the rules for Superb Dispelling to see if he could have avoided damage from that.

EDIT: He took a lot of damage from that Dispell. It doesn't say anything about being able to reduce it either.

[JeptCloak]

I don't think he'd take Falling damage unless Explosive Runes was able to somehow Dispell it, and Xykon is out of level 5 spells (he could cast Over Land Flight while falling if I remember the rules correctly). I'll need to check the rules for Superb Dispelling to see if he could have avoided damage from that.

Well, you'd expect him to have a little over 200 damage after the runes, even without fall damage... his HPs really should be that high, should they?

[Tempest Fennac]

He would have 1 maximized d12, then the rest would be rolled, unless he could take average. I heard of 1 feat which lets undead add Cha to their HPs but I can't remember what it's called, and there's no evidence that Xykon has it.

[JeptCloak]

The max damage Xykon could have taken at that point is (by my admittedly limited understanding of rules):
* 225 for the subburst
* 60 for the backlash damage
* 36 for the Runes, and
* 24 for the Crushing hand
This all assumes no damage from other spells, disintegrate, no-name spells, etc.

That comes to a max of 345. Now, obviously Xykon could have taken less, he probably has, but even half that is lethal to him (or so I understand), and there is no indication he made the reflex save on the Sunburst in the illustration...

[Often Normal]

Regarding the fly/fall damage, anything short of an anti-magic field will see Xykon float to the ground in a similar fashion to feather fall.

[Tempest Fennac]

Looking at the figures, average damage would put him near to being destroyed.

[Lord_Gareth]

Might I remind ya'll that Xykon not only has Schrodinger's HP Score at the moment, but that he likely has numerous protections on his person to reduce damage and absorb energy attacks?

[(name here)]

On the other hand, he's got two allies with harm who were in the room after most of the damage was dealt.

[Tempest Fennac]

Tsukiko has never used any spells which are a higher level then 5, so she may not be able to cast Harm. Also, RC wasn't shown casting the spell (it would have eliminated Xykon's battle damage if it was used on him anyway).

[(name here)]

Huh, i thought she cast harm in her inital apperence. turns out it was just inflict critical wounds. Either way, though, he almost certainly was healed to near-full before tsukiko left the room.

[SPoD]

Xykon's damage reduction of 15/bludgeoning and magic MAY have applied to the Crushing Hand and WOULD apply to any falling damage.

Also, he closed his eyes in the panel with the Sunburst; that could be an illustration of making his Reflex saving throw (i.e. manages to close his eyes before getting the full effect in the face). More to the point, Rich doesn't always illustrate saving throws.

And he could have something like Improved Toughness or the Cha-to-Hit-Points feat mentioned or whatever. We just don't know. He'll drop when he drops, or he won't.

[Ancalagon]

The max damage Xykon could have taken at that point is (by my admittedly limited understanding of rules):
* 225 for the subburst
* 60 for the backlash damage
* 36 for the Runes, and
* 24 for the Crushing hand
This all assumes no damage from other spells, disintegrate, no-name spells, etc.

That comes to a max of 345. Now, obviously Xykon could have taken less, he probably has, but even half that is lethal to him (or so I understand), and there is no indication he made the reflex save on the Sunburst in the illustration...

There's more to a good plot, a villianous villian, and a heroic hero than rules. I guess your failure to grasp that is the main reason why you get annoyed about the current story.
While it is perfectly cool to do something as the class and geekery and taking a look which rules might apply here and there (and while it is ALSO cool that Rich mostly sticks to the rules!) you'll enjoy the story more if you consider the rule-finding "cool" but just see it as "extra", as "bonus" to a great story.

Xykon has 200 HPs more than he should have? So what, he's the main villian, let him have his extra 200 HPs and his extra level 9 spell, let him "cheat" the rules here* and there. As long as it is not "too much" and as long as it makes an awesome story, who cares the core D&D-rules get violated once in a while (and, btw, the heroes also do it on a regular basis**, so it levels out again). Enjoy the story, lean back, and enjoy pointless but entertaining discussions about the rules behind the cool story.


* Btw, computer-games also do that. Did you ever complain the main boss has 850 HPs while your heroes (who should work according to the same rules) max out at 120?
No, you did not, I bet.

** Vaarsuivus should be dead by now, Belkar is more damage-dealing than he should be, Durkon could not have cast one or two spells that he casted, characters should fumble their concentration much often, Blackwing should not be able to pop in and out (talking about heavy impact on the story, are we?), Roy and Elan should have fallen to death when jumping from the exploding Redmountainhill,Roy should not have been able to pull his "quartering strike" in the afterlife ... I bet I could go on.

[Castamir]

Xykon wasn't blinded, so he MUST have saved on the Sunburst... and that's most of the damage we're talking about.

[Estelindis]

Xykon *is* dead. :smalltongue:

[lord_khaine]

unfortuantely, the Cha bonus to hp thing is a special ability of some undead creatures, you cannot get it though a feat.

[Ancalagon]

Xykon *is* dead. :smalltongue:

Don't pull a Eugene here! ;)

[Duaneyo1]

Let’s say X is level 25. We give him his standard 12 hps for his first level and 6 every level after that, so he winds up with 156 hp. Any feats he took like toughness etc. will add to his hit point total. Also I will bet money that he took false life as a second level spell. False life is good for another 15hp. So I guess his hit points would be: 171

I think he made his save on the sunburst so he took an average of 63 from the sunburst and an average of 30 from superb dispelling. He hasn’t taken damage from explosive ruins yet, but that’s an average of 18. Finally the 9-24 damage from the hand. I would have ruled that his damage reduction would have soaked up the 15 damage from the hand.

171-63-30-Hand damage = between 69 and 54 hp. He’s damaged but still better off than V or O Chul.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

Doing some quick math for the damage he's taken to this point (Empowered Sunburst, Crushing Hand for 1 round, backlash damage from Superb Dispelling, plus whatever else damage the non-mentioned spells did, let's assume zero for them), I mean that adds up... if you add in non-savable Runes damage, he should be pretty much dead, and then how is he supposed to survive the fall damage, which should be substantial?

Well he is flying at the moment - so that might take care of falling damaged.

Of course not really knowing Xykon's level for sure or how much damage he has taken or saved it is hard to say for certain "he should be dead after this". Worst scenario (for Xykon) is he could be I think is the best we can say.


I'm thinking it would be best if he didn't, and the amulet somehow let's him return at a later point... probably emerging from Girard's gate....

Alternatively if the explosions destroys his body maybe it will blast the phylactery clear, letting it fall to the ground... of course that would mean it was extremely even more tough/magically protected then I imagined.

[selgnij]

I know next to nothing on D&D rules, but I'll assume the people who say X must have saved vs. sunburst know what they are talking about. Thats half damage from sunburst, correct?

Anyway, it looks like currently X isn't too badly damaged, if you compare his current appearance to when say, the group of ghost paladins was beating him up for a while, he seemed a lot closer to destruction then than now. I guess some damage rolls have been coming out subpar.

Link to X fighting ghost paladins for reference.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html

[ScIaDrd]

Well, I think arguing wether Big X should´ve been obliterated yet or not is kind of a moot point because Rich is the storyteller here, and he will kill the lich, when he and only he, seems it dramaticaly apropriate.
¨So sorry to burst your bubble, but is rally no ponits arguing about that like V gender or MiTDs identity. Does´not mean we are prevented from speculating that is.:smallwink:
My favourite theory is that Xykon loses the phylactery, gets blasted itto the rift and whre Snarl is, survives due to deus ex machina:smalltongue:, gets corrupted by the Snarl or some such And then reemrges like a dreadfull uber-powerful eldritch abomination out of hell.:smallcool:

[i6uuaq]

There's more to a good plot, a villianous villian, and a heroic hero than rules. I guess your failure to grasp that is the main reason why you get annoyed about the current story.
While it is perfectly cool to do something as the class and geekery and taking a look which rules might apply here and there (and while it is ALSO cool that Rich mostly sticks to the rules!) you'll enjoy the story more if you consider the rule-finding "cool" but just see it as "extra", as "bonus" to a great story.

Xykon has 200 HPs more than he should have? So what, he's the main villian, let him have his extra 200 HPs and his extra level 9 spell, let him "cheat" the rules here* and there. As long as it is not "too much" and as long as it makes an awesome story, who cares the core D&D-rules get violated once in a while (and, btw, the heroes also do it on a regular basis**, so it levels out again). Enjoy the story, lean back, and enjoy pointless but entertaining discussions about the rules behind the cool story.


* Btw, computer-games also do that. Did you ever complain the main boss has 850 HPs while your heroes (who should work according to the same rules) max out at 120?
No, you did not, I bet.

** Vaarsuivus should be dead by now, Belkar is more damage-dealing than he should be, Durkon could not have cast one or two spells that he casted, characters should fumble their concentration much often, Blackwing should not be able to pop in and out (talking about heavy impact on the story, are we?), Roy and Elan should have fallen to death when jumping from the exploding Redmountainhill,Roy should not have been able to pull his "quartering strike" in the afterlife ... I bet I could go on.


with all due respect, the OP wasn't being particularly rule-lawyerly, nor particularly class-geekery, and made a decent point along with some interesting speculation without coming across as particularly annoyed. perhaps he could have slipped a couple of smiley-faces in there just to be on the safe side, but still.

reputations aside, methinks you may be over-reacting a wee bit. :smallwink:

[Lamech]

Doing some quick math for the damage he's taken to this point (Empowered Sunburst, Crushing Hand for 1 round, backlash damage from Superb Dispelling, plus whatever else damage the non-mentioned spells did, let's assume zero for them), I mean that adds up... if you add in non-savable Runes damage, he should be pretty much dead, and then how is he supposed to survive the fall damage, which should be substantial? I'm thinking it would be best if he didn't, and the amulet somehow let's him return at a later point... probably emerging from Girard's gate....
Doing some actual math I found Xykon took this much damage (math included) Note: Sunburst did not blind Xykon: he made his save:
Sunburst = 25*3.5=75+12.5=87.5(base) 87.5*.75(empower and save)=66
Crushing hand = 19
Dispel = 35
Explosive runes = 21
Total = 66+40+35= 106+35=141
And Xykon's hp total. Don't forget that players start with max hit points at level one. I'm just assuming that the DM decided to give this buff to the MAIN VILLAN.
20*6.5+12= 142

Soo.... no. Xykon will probably not be destroyed. Do the math next time. And as many have said: He isn't taking fall damage.Hey, and I didn't even have to talk about desecrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/desecrate.htm).

[Ancalagon]

with all due respect, the OP wasn't being particularly rule-lawyerly, nor particularly class-geekery, and made a decent point along with some interesting speculation without coming across as particularly annoyed. perhaps he could have slipped a couple of smiley-faces in there just to be on the safe side, but still.

reputations aside, methinks you may be over-reacting a wee bit. :smallwink:

He has made perfectly clear in the past what he thinks about the current (in his opinion) deus-ex-machina-the-author-only-wants-to-show-how-totally-badass-xykon-is-and-ruins-the-plot-over-it. So I took this is further complaint and addressed it accordingly. Should I have been wrong, I apologize.

[The Grazymancer]

Doing some actual math I found Xykon took this much damage (math included) Note: Sunburst did not blind Xykon: he made his save:
Sunburst = 25*3.5=75+12.5=87.5(base) 87.5*.75(empower and save)=66
Crushing hand = 19
Dispel = 35
Explosive runes = 21
Total = 66+40+35= 106+35=141
And Xykon's hp total. Don't forget that players start with max hit points at level one. I'm just assuming that the DM decided to give this buff to the MAIN VILLAN.
20*6.7+12= 142

Soo.... no. Xykon will probably not be destroyed. Do the math next time. And as many have said: He isn't taking fall damage.Hey, and I didn't even have to talk about desecrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/desecrate.htm).


And X is more than level 20 so he could have plenty of health left.

[spargel]

* Btw, computer-games also do that. Did you ever complain the main boss has 850 HPs while your heroes (who should work according to the same rules) max out at 120?
No, you did not, I bet.


Yeah, and then you usually rely on the boss to act like an idiot to win.

Anyways, this comic doesn't really have strict rules in it anyways, so I don't really care.

[Lamech]

<snip>And X is more than level 20 so he could have plenty of health left.
Yeah I assumed level 21. Which is why he has 6.5*20+12. The twleve is first level the 20 are 2-21. He could also have more levels, corspecrafter (+2/HD) Desecrate (+1or+2/HD) or improved toughness (+1/HD) I just wanted to show that pretty much the absolute minimum has Xykon probably alive, I doubt he has as few hp as I used.

[Dork Lord]

Yeah I assumed level 21. Which is why he has 6.5*20+12. The twleve is first level the 20 are 2-21. He could also have more levels, corspecrafter (+2/HD) Desecrate (+1or+2/HD) or improved toughness (+1/HD) I just wanted to show that pretty much the absolute minimum has Xykon probably alive, I doubt he has as few hp as I used.

Xykon has to be a lot higher than 21. He schooled V when he had two souls of way higher than level 21 each spliced to him. I'd be willing to guess that Xykon's closer to level 30, but even then he won't have all that many hp. Having no Con is a pretty big disadvantage when it comes to hit points.

[SoC175]

Well, you'd expect him to have a little over 200 damage after the runes, even without fall damage... his HPs really should be that high, should they?
Well, both V and O-Chul should be dead after Xykon's meteor swarm ....

[SoC175]

The max damage Xykon could have taken at that point is (by my admittedly limited understanding of rules):
* 225 for the subburst
* 60 for the backlash damage
* 36 for the Runes, and
* 24 for the Crushing hand
This all assumes no damage from other spells, disintegrate, no-name spells, etc.

That comes to a max of 345. Now, obviously Xykon could have taken less, he probably has, but even half that is lethal to him (or so I understand), and there is no indication he made the reflex save on the Sunburst in the illustration...
Let's take a look at the average damage he should have taken by now:

* 129 from the sunburst (37 x 3.5)
* 35 for the backslash (10 x 3.5)
* 4 from the crushing hand (2 x 3.5 + 12 - 15)

That's 168 until now against the ~174 hp Xykon should have as a lvl 26 lich just from adding his d12s.

Now adding annother

* 21 from the explosive runes (6 x 3.5)

should indeed destroy his current body.

So there are three options for him to endure:

a) the spells that hit Xykon did below average damage
b) Xykon has the obscure feat allowing him to add Cha to his hp and thus has at least 300 hp and thus plenty of hp left
c) The Giant just ignores the rules for good story telling (which also could be explained by option a) however unlikely it would be if so many dice were to be rolled)

PS: Forgot annother option

c) Xykon merely has the improved toughness feat which brings his total hp (just from d12s and IT) to 200 and thus he should survive the explosive rune damage unless it rolls well above average

[SPoD]

Let's take a look at the average damage he should have taken by now:

* 129 from the sunburst (37 x 3.5)

As has been explained several times already, Xykon MUST have made his Reflex save for half, since he was not blinded. Therefore, this should be about 65 damage, not 129, and Xykon should have plenty of hit points left.

Basically, your analysis is just a repeat of what Lamech said, only getting it wrong.

[Porthos]

Compare the "scuff marks" (which is an eyeball approximation of HP loss) here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html).

Xykon isn't anywhere near being destroyed. :smallsmile:

[pjackson]

(and while it is ALSO cool that Rich mostly sticks to the rules!) you'll enjoy the story more if you consider the rule-finding "cool" but just see it as "extra", as "bonus" to a great story.


It is cool and the fact that the stories can be looked at that way makes the story even greater.



Xykon has 200 HPs more than he should have? So what, he's the main villian, let him have his extra 200 HPs and his extra level 9 spell, let him "cheat" the rules here* and there.


The hypothetical DM would be acting entirely within the rules to assign hit points to Xykon rather than rolling them so long as they were within the possible range for a creature with his abilities and hit dice. He could even make them greater using "Rule Zero".

Or he could have given Redcloak the Corpsecrafter feat



(and, btw, the heroes also do it on a regular basis**, so it levels out again).


Rarely, not regularly.



** Vaarsuivus should be dead by now,


Probably perhaps, but there are ways to explain V's survival that do not require that the rules were broken.



Belkar is more damage-dealing than he should be,


He massacres low level types - just as a someone of his class and type of his level would be expected to. Against higher level opposition he struggles.



Durkon could not have cast one or two spells that he casted,


Did he? I haven't noticed him do so. The control weather (from a scroll) effects went beyond the standard effects, but that is about it.



characters should fumble their concentration much often,


Eh? There is no rule for fumbling skill checks, they don't even automatically fail on a 1, and once characters are out of low levels most of the ones who need to makes such checks often have enough skill to automatically make most of them.



Blackwing should not be able to pop in and out (talking about heavy impact on the story, are we?),


Somewhat true, but that is a visualization of the way players tend to forget about familiars until they are needed. As V said (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0154.html) he is there all the time :smallsmile: Anyway an item providing a permanent Familiar Pocket is a way to explain it within the rules.



Roy and Elan should have fallen to death when jumping from the exploding Redmountainhill,


There is no way you could show that their survival was against the rules. It is not clearly shown how far down they jumped.



Roy should not have been able to pull his "quartering strike" in the afterlife


He made a full attack (3 attacks shown) with a 2 handed sword. He has weapon specialization and power attack and killed what appeared to be a significantly lower level fighter. Nothing against the rules there. The fighter ending up in pieces is just descriptive fluff fitting the result.



... I bet I could go on.

I wouldn't bother.

[Ancalagon]

First, no clue what you argueing for or against. In some points you say something and support what I say (without noticing? I really cannot decide) in others you argue against.


It is cool and the fact that the stories can be looked at that way makes the story even greater.
That's about what I said and what one of the points of my post was. Thanks for sharing that opinion.



The hypothetical DM would be acting entirely within the rules to assign hit points to Xykon rather than rolling them so long as they were within the possible range for a creature with his abilities and hit dice. He could even make them greater using "Rule Zero".

Or he could have given Redcloak the Corpsecrafter feat


Yeah. DM can and should do whatever what makes a great story. Rules or no rules.


Rarely, not regularly.

Well, at least as regularly as the opponents. Whatever that means. No clue what you meant. Is that good or bad that they do it? How does it bring new context to what I said?


Probably perhaps, but there are ways to explain V's survival that do not require that the rules were broken.

Didn't say othervise.


He massacres low level types - just as a someone of his class and type of his level would be expected to. Against higher level opposition he struggles.

You must have missed the fights against Bozzok/Crystal and Crystal alone.


Did he? I haven't noticed him do so. The control weather (from a scroll) effects went beyond the standard effects, but that is about it.

And the other things I mentioned? Again, I have no idea why you picked this part of my post and left the others out, I THINK you somehow want to argue against what I said, but the rest of the post does not make that clear.
Also, the gods wanted to help Durkon in the south with the movement-speed, which indicates it's open to cheating. And the Control Weather WAS against the rules. Even the angel mentioned it (until Thor shut him up). I do not bother to look for other situations right now, but I think we could find cases we *could argue* over. But that's not my point, so I'm not doing it right now.


Eh? There is no rule for fumbling skill checks, they don't even automatically fail on a 1, and once characters are out of low levels most of the ones who need to makes such checks often have enough skill to automatically make most of them.

Spells can be fumbled (rarely do). Skills cannot be fumbled, but they can "not be successful". No one talked about skills failing on a natural 1.


Somewhat true, but that is a visualization of the way players tend to forget about familiars until they are needed. As V said (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0154.html) he is there all the time :smallsmile: Anyway an item providing a permanent Familiar Pocket is a way to explain it within the rules.

Thanks for stating the obvious. And you know there's no item like that on Vaarsuvius, it would make the whole joke about "Ahh, the player remembers his familiar" totally moot.
I'm not sure if you got it, therefore: I find this whole familiar-thing totally great, it's awesome. But it's still cheating.


There is no way you could show that their survival was against the rules. It is not clearly shown how far down they jumped.

I do not have to. Both of us know it was a closing shot for the arc and we both know they did not even get one point of damage (even if they SHOULD have, at least something). I think you do not WANT to get what I want to point out with my examples.
And because I cannot proof something does not mean it did not happen, even if it is obvious it did happen. And you know that as well.


He made a full attack (3 attacks shown) with a 2 handed sword. He has weapon specialization and power attack and killed what appeared to be a significantly lower level fighter. Nothing against the rules there. The fighter ending up in pieces is just descriptive fluff fitting the result.

THAT is a valid point, but still does not change the fact the rules are considered "lose" for the PCs as well here and there (since the great story (see above) stands in the midlle of it all, not the rules).


I wouldn't bother.

Yeah, my point exactly. But I probably do not go on for different reasons than you.