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raptor1056
2009-06-06, 09:11 AM
So, I, like nearly every other player within the realms of my knowledge, have dreamed of playing a monk. It would be undeniably quite awesome to be able to fly into action, Jet-Li style, and disarm the enemy swordsman, trip the wizard, Stunning Fist the Rogue, and grapple the cleric. However, as is generally the consensus on these forums, monks are pretty damn bad. (Note-- no flaming! if you disagree, I am not interested in your opinion on this specific subject. No offense to any who disagree with me, this post is just based on the assumption that monks are underpowered.) Would the simple addition of a full (+1/ level) BAB:
A. Make the monk sufficiently powerful?
B. Make the monk overly powerful?
--i. If so, how can this be remedied?
C. Cause the monk to remain underpowered?
--i. If so, could this be corrected by:
----a. A d10 HD?
----b. The ability to move and full attack?
----c. Free multiclassing?

Again, there is to be no flaming here. If things get out of hand, I will request the closure of this thread.


Monk
Alignment
Any
Hit Die
d12.
Class Skills
The monk’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level
(4 + Int modifier) ×4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level
4 + Int modifier.

BAB: Full

Saves: All full.

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the monk.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Monks are proficient with club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling.
Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields
When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses her AC bonus, as well as her fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.
Meditative Fighting (Ex)
When unarmored and unencumbered, a monk may substitute her Wisdom bonus for her strength on attack rolls, damage rolls, and special attacks.
AC Bonus (Ex)
When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level).
These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load.
Flurry of Blows (Ex)
When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table: The Monk. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to -1, and at 9th level it disappears. A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows. At 6th level, a monk may make a flurry of blows as a standard action, and at 12th level, a monk may make a flurry of blows as a move action.
When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus × 1½ or ×½) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.
In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability. Even though the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, a monk may still intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough attacks in her flurry of blows routine to do so.
Greater Flurry
When a monk reaches 11th level, her flurry of blows ability improves. In addition to the standard single extra attack she gets from flurry of blows, she gets a second extra attack at her full base attack bonus.
Unarmed Strike
At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.
Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
A monk also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on Table: The Monk. The unarmed damage on Table: The Monk is for Medium monks. A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with her unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage; see Table: Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage.
Bonus Feat
At 1st level, a monk may select either Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist as a bonus feat. At 2nd level, she may select either Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat. At 6th level, she may select either Improved Disarm or Improved Trip as a bonus feat. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.
Evasion (Ex)
At 2nd level or higher if a monk makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if a monk is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of evasion.
Fast Movement (Ex)
At 3rd level, a monk gains an enhancement bonus to her speed, as shown on Table: The Monk. A monk in armor or carrying a medium or heavy load loses this extra speed.
Still Mind (Ex)
A monk of 3rd level or higher gains a +2 bonus on saving throws against spells and effects from the school of enchantment.
Ki Strike (Su)
At 4th level, a monk’s unarmed attacks are empowered with ki. Her unarmed attacks are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. Ki strike improves with the character’s monk level. At 10th level, her unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. At 16th level, her unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction and bypassing hardness.
Slow Fall (Ex)
At 4th level or higher, a monk within arm’s reach of a wall can use it to slow her descent. When first using this ability, she takes damage as if the fall were 20 feet shorter than it actually is. The monk’s ability to slow her fall (that is, to reduce the effective distance of the fall when next to a wall) improves with her monk level until at 20th level she can use a nearby wall to slow her descent and fall any distance without harm.
Purity of Body (Ex)
At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases except for supernatural and magical diseases.

Large Grapple (Ex)
At 6th level, if a monk has the feat Improved Grapple, she makes grapple attempts as if she were one size category larger. At level 12, this bonus improves to 2 size categories, and at level 18, it improves to 3. If a monk does not possess the feat Improved Grapple, any time she takes the feat, she gains this ability.
Wholeness of Body (Su)
At 7th level or higher, a monk can heal her own wounds. She can heal a number of hit points of damage equal to twice her current monk level each day, and she can spread this healing out among several uses.
Improved Evasion (Ex)
At 9th level, a monk’s evasion ability improves. She still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, but henceforth she takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.
Diamond Body (Su)
At 11th level, a monk gains immunity to poisons of all kinds.
Abundant Step (Su)
At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door, once per p[oint of wisdom bonus, as a move action. Her caster level for this effect is one-half her monk level (rounded down).
Diamond Soul (Ex)
At 13th level, a monk gains spell resistance equal to her current monk level + 10. In order to affect the monk with a spell, a spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the monk’s spell resistance.
Quivering Palm (Su)
Starting at 15th level, a monk can set up vibrations within the body of another creature that can thereafter be fatal if the monk so desires. She can use this quivering palm attack once a day per point of wisdom modifier, and she must announce her intent before making her attack roll. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be affected. Otherwise, if the monk strikes successfully and the target takes damage from the blow, the quivering palm attack succeeds. Thereafter the monk can try to slay the victim at any later time, as long as the attempt is made within a number of days equal to her monk level. To make such an attempt, the monk merely wills the target to die (a free action), and unless the target makes a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + ½ the monk’s level + the monk’s Wis modifier), it dies. If the saving throw is successful, the target is no longer in danger from that particular quivering palm attack, but it may still be affected by another one at a later time.
Timeless Body (Ex)
Upon attaining 17th level, a monk no longer takes penalties to her ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that she has already taken, however, remain in place. Bonuses still accrue, and the monk still dies of old age when her time is up.
Tongue of the Sun and Moon (Ex)
A monk of 17th level or higher can speak with any living creature.
Empty Body (Su)
At 19th level, a monk gains the ability to assume an ethereal state for 1 round per monk level per day, as though using the spell etherealness. She may go ethereal on a number of different occasions during any single day, as long as the total number of rounds spent in an ethereal state does not exceed her monk level.
Perfect Self
At 20th level, a monk becomes a magical creature. She is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the monk’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. Additionally, the monk gains damage reduction 10/magic, which allows her to ignore the first 10 points of damage from any attack made by a nonmagical weapon or by any natural attack made by a creature that doesn’t have similar damage reduction. Unlike other outsiders, the monk can still be brought back from the dead as if she were a member of her previous creature type.

Riffington
2009-06-06, 09:24 AM
It makes them stronger than the other melee classes (although slightly less so if most other melee builds take one level of monk prior to choosing their eventual alignment). It helps close the gap between casters and melee because of the boost in saves and the improved access to improved grapple.

However, it does not and will not eliminate the gap between casters and melee in a game where casters are played in the overpowered fashion standard on this and other boards.

Dogmantra
2009-06-06, 09:25 AM
I think that full BAB, d10 HP and the ability to flurry (i.e. extra attack) as a standard action bring the monk up a little. Perhaps when he/she gains a third/fourth non-flurry attack, let them make 3 attacks as a standard action (as opposed to 4 as a full)

But as Riffington said: melee will never be as good as magic.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-06-06, 09:30 AM
It makes them stronger than the other melee classes (although slightly less so if most other melee builds take one level of monk prior to choosing their eventual alignment). It helps close the gap between casters and melee because of the boost in saves and the improved access to improved grapple.

What? Sorry, but a "Full BaB Monk" will still fall to most classes out there, melee or no. Also, what good would 1 level of Monk do for most other classes? Unarmed Strike? That's a feat...two if you want a better strike. Wisdom to AC? That's what Armor is for...and the Swordsage does it better. Improved Grapple? That's another feat...and not mandatory.

What it does is take the monk out of the "practically inept at martial combat" category and place it in the "this class now can function well in a party of equally optimized characters" category.

I will give you the grapples though. But other classes can still do that, sometimes better. The "Full BaB Monk" still doesn't really compete with the Tome of Battle classes, and a decently build Fighter (if the player knows the tricks) or Barbarian can still take it out without to much effort.


However, it does not and will not eliminate the gap between casters and melee in a game where casters are played in the overpowered fashion standard on this and other boards.

True.

J.Gellert
2009-06-06, 09:36 AM
It will make monks better as entry for Gishes... :smallamused:

Riffington
2009-06-06, 09:37 AM
Improved Grapple?

Improved grapple and +2 to all saves. This is quite strong in any game involving primarily humanoids (the games I tend to play. Grappling may be weaker in certain campaigns, of course)

The reason a monk is no good in a grapple is because of BAB. But if you give him the BAB, he can rule grappling because of his flurry of blows (extra grapples) and high monk unarmed damage.

raptor1056
2009-06-06, 09:37 AM
The intention is not to close the gap between melee and magic characters. The intention is to close the gap between monks and other meleers. I think this idea merits some playtesting. Also, Djinn, why do you think a full BaB monk would die to most other classes? I'm not countering your statement, I'm just wondering what your specific reasons for thinking that are.

mostlyharmful
2009-06-06, 09:39 AM
Crappy BAB is only one part of the problems of Monks, you've still got cronic MAD, abilities that are underpowered and don't synergize and no clearly defined role in a party.

My usual working model of Monks gives them, full BAB, d12 HD, a choice of Wis or Str to attack, damage, special attacks rolls, reduce the action of flurry to a standerd at sixth, and then a move at 12 and increase the rate they get +s to AC from basic monkishness from every 5 levels to every 4. That'll make them competative with other meleers in my experiance as well as making them able to act as the mobile/special attacks meleer.

You can also reduce the DimDoor from a full round action to a standerd or move, give them Wis mod a day rather than one, make quivering palm once a day AND give them a whole slew more stuff at high level but since most groups don't get that high I rarely have to think about that. And no, if you do all this it still isn't overpowered, just competitive with a Barb.

raptor1056
2009-06-06, 09:49 AM
Crappy BAB is only one part of the problems of Monks, you've still got cronic MAD, abilities that are underpowered and don't synergize and no clearly defined role in a party.

My usual working model of Monks gives them, full BAB, d12 HD, a choice of Wis or Str to attack, damage, special attacks rolls, reduce the action of flurry to a standerd at sixth, and then a move at 12 and increase the rate they get +s to AC from basic monkishness from every 5 levels to every 4. That'll make them competative with other meleers in my experiance as well as making them able to act as the mobile/special attacks meleer.

You can also reduce the DimDoor from a full round action to a standerd or move, give them Wis mod a day rather than one, make quivering palm once a day AND give them a whole slew more stuff at high level but since most groups don't get that high I rarely have to think about that. And no, if you do all this it still isn't overpowered, just competitive with a Barb.

You, sir, are a nice man. This thread was making me neurotic and uncomfortable, but you have answered calmly and friendlyly. For this, I thank you. I will be saving this build and testing it. Do you think that allowing monks to use Wisdom instead of Strength whenever it would apply would be reasonable? I feel like that would make monks generally more utilitarian.
As for flurry as a move action, Would that not allow two flurries in a turn? That would, in fact, be cool.

HailDiscordia
2009-06-06, 09:52 AM
I just started up a new campaign and since I rolled up some pretty awesome scores I decided to be a monk. Like the OP I think that monks are one of the coolest classes around. The DM gave me the option of a full BAB, at the expense of one my good saves instead having the bad progression. I jumped all over it and took a bad reflex save.

So far he seems pretty competent in melee, though I do have the benefit of a high STR. I suspect he won't fight quite as well as some other melee classes, but I do have a bunch of neat skills and abilities that give him an edge in other realms.

I certainly don't think that a full BAB makes the monk too strong.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-06-06, 10:00 AM
The intention is not to close the gap between melee and magic characters. The intention is to close the gap between monks and other meleers. I think this idea merits some playtesting. Also, Djinn, why do you think a full BaB monk would die to most other classes? I'm not countering your statement, I'm just wondering what your specific reasons for thinking that are.

Because the Monk now has a higher Base Attack Bonus, but his other class abilities are still not up to par. He's got a heavy Multiple Ability Dependency, meaning that those "Strong Saves" really aren't as strong as they appear (although still pretty good). His damage and attack still aren't as high as a standard melee character, his Armor Class and Hit Points still aren't as high, and his class abilities really help little in combat.

...hmmm...upon further reflection, that may not be entirety accurate. A +20/+20/+20/+17/+14/+11/+8/+5/+2 attack routine is nothing to laugh at. But that's really the only thing going for him, and I'm not sure it's enough to compete against, say, 9th level maneuvers, or the ability to channel 6th level spells through a full attack routine (Duskblade).

valadil
2009-06-06, 10:03 AM
I've seen a full BAB monk played in a fairly lengthy campaign. He was comparable with the other fighters. I think this is a good fix for monks.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-06, 10:08 AM
Because the Monk now has a higher Base Attack Bonus, but his other class abilities are still not up to par. He's got a heavy Multiple Ability Dependency, meaning that those "Strong Saves" really aren't as strong as they appear (although still pretty good). His damage and attack still aren't as high as a standard melee character, his Armor Class and Hit Points still aren't as high, and his class abilities really help little in combat.

...hmmm...upon further reflection, that may not be entirety accurate. A +20/+20/+20/+17/+14/+11/+8/+5/+2 attack routine is nothing to laugh at. But that's really the only thing going for him, and I'm not sure it's enough to compete against, say, 9th level maneuvers, or the ability to channel 6th level spells through a full attack routine (Duskblade).
Or a raging battle charge.

raptor1056
2009-06-06, 10:12 AM
Because the Monk now has a higher Base Attack Bonus, but his other class abilities are still not up to par. He's got a heavy Multiple Ability Dependency, meaning that those "Strong Saves" really aren't as strong as they appear (although still pretty good). His damage and attack still aren't as high as a standard melee character, his Armor Class and Hit Points still aren't as high, and his class abilities really help little in combat.

...hmmm...upon further reflection, that may not be entirety accurate. A +20/+20/+20/+17/+14/+11/+8/+5/+2 attack routine is nothing to laugh at. But that's really the only thing going for him, and I'm not sure it's enough to compete against, say, 9th level maneuvers, or the ability to channel 6th level spells through a full attack routine (Duskblade).

Are you sure that it would not be 20/20/20/15/10/5? If we are using the 20/15/10/5 attack progression, unless there is something I don't understand about flurry of blows, this seems more accurate. Or course, there very well may be something I fail to understand about flurry, so I could be wrong.

Riffington
2009-06-06, 10:15 AM
Ok, maybe I'm missing something, but show me where I'm wrong.

Comparing a full-BAB monk to a Barbarian, and for the sake of simplicity, giving them both the same stats (STR 18, Con 14, Dex 12, Wis 12, Int 8, Cha 8)

The full-BAB monk has:
*the ability to win grapples (because of flurry, high unarmed damage, and improved grapple), and thus can win a one-on-one fight with another melee character.
*great saves and eventually SR (the Barbarian just gets Dominated or goes to sleep or whatever) and thus can contribute more to a fight against casters.
*benefits more from each buff (especially size) because of greater number of attacks.


The Barbarian has:
*rage.
*a few points better AC (+3 at first level, decreasing to negative as the monk gains levels, gains a wis bonus item, and perhaps even a monk's belt)
*more HP.

I don't buy the MAD stuff, because the barbarian can't crap Wis any more than a monk can or he'd be useless against will saves.

If the Barbarian can afford a couple feats for improved grapple, the monk can more easily afford a single feat for a decent weapon (including an exotic like spiked chain or the like). What am I missing?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-06-06, 10:20 AM
Ok, maybe I'm missing something, but show me where I'm wrong.

Comparing a full-BAB monk to a Barbarian, and for the sake of simplicity, giving them both the same stats (STR 18, Con 14, Dex 12, Wis 12, Int 8, Cha 8)

The full-BAB monk has:
*the ability to win grapples (because of flurry, high unarmed damage, and improved grapple), and thus can win a one-on-one fight with another melee character.
*great saves and eventually SR (the Barbarian just gets Dominated or goes to sleep or whatever) and thus can contribute more to a fight against casters.
*benefits more from each buff (especially size) because of greater number of attacks.


The Barbarian has:
*rage.
*a few points better AC (+3 at first level, decreasing to negative as the monk gains levels, gains a wis bonus item, and perhaps even a monk's belt)
*more HP.

I don't buy the MAD stuff, because the barbarian can't crap Wis any more than a monk can or he'd be useless against will saves.

If the Barbarian can afford a couple feats for improved grapple, the monk can more easily afford a single feat for a decent weapon (including an exotic like spiked chain or the like). What am I missing?

A generally higher Strength and Constitution, with an emphasis on Class Abilities using those. By 20th level, he can be expected to have at least a +3 advantage over your standard monk in both those stats. Also, most strong barbarian builds use Power Attack on a Two-handed weapon, often with Leap Attack to get huge damage multipliers that the monk, quite frankly, can't match. You'll see Barbarians dealing 200+ damage with a single attack quite handily...some go much higher. Then add in the Pounce variant Barbarian from the Complete Champion (I believe) and the madness escalates from there.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-06, 10:24 AM
Steadfast Determination: Use Con Mod for will saves instead of Wis.

"Bad news. His weakest point just became his strongest point."

Gorbash
2009-06-06, 10:33 AM
eventually SR

His SR is neglible. If he's against a caster of his level, caster beats it on a roll of 10, meaning more than 50% of the time. Assuming that caster doesn't boost his CL, which they usually do, in a number of ways, especially at levels 13+:

- Ring of Arcane Might
- Robe of Arcane Might
- Ioun Stone
- Create Magic Tattoo
- Spell Power from Archmage
- Bead of Karma (with UMD)

Assuming a combination of above, the caster has CL increased by 9, meaning he doesn't even have to roll to pass the SR.

Or:

Caster has Arcane Mastery (feat that lets him take 10 on Caster Level checks), meaning once again, he doesn't have to roll to pass SR.

Or:

Caster uses Assay Spell Resistance, giving him +10 on Caster Level checks, and for the third time, he doesn't even have to roll.

So, as you can see, SR that equals lvl + 10 isn't worth paper it was written on.

Riffington
2009-06-06, 10:36 AM
A generally higher Strength and Constitution, with an emphasis on Class Abilities using those. By 20th level, he can be expected to have at least a +3 advantage over your standard monk in both those stats. Also, most strong barbarian builds use Power Attack on a Two-handed weapon, often with Leap Attack to get huge damage multipliers that the monk, quite frankly, can't match. You'll see Barbarians dealing 200+ damage with a single attack quite handily...some go much higher. Then add in the Pounce variant Barbarian from the Complete Champion (I believe) and the madness escalates from there.

But wait:
1. I already specified that the monk takes the barbarian stats. The barbarian does get rage, admittedly.
2. The monk can have leap attack and a 2-handed weapon (may as well be an exotic like spiked chain) more easily than the Barbarian because he has more feats to spare. His leap attack also has better range.
3. The monk can take Lion Totem Barbarian as his first level (that'd free up a weapon proficiency feat if he really wants to go with greatsword); the Barbarian has to take it instead of standard barbarian and thus would lose out on fast movement. So the monk's pouncing leap attack would have much greater range than the barbarian's; he just couldn't rage (unless he becomes nonlawful and thus gives up his ability to progress farther as a monk.)

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-06, 10:47 AM
3. The monk can take Lion Totem Barbarian as his first level (that'd free up a weapon proficiency feat if he really wants to go with greatsword); the Barbarian has to take it instead of standard barbarian and thus would lose out on fast movement. So the monk's pouncing leap attack would have much greater range than the barbarian's; he just couldn't rage (unless he becomes nonlawful and thus gives up his ability to progress farther as a monk.)

Monks have to be Lawful, Barbarians have to be Chaotic to rage. Barbarian-Monks are a no-go.

raptor1056
2009-06-06, 10:55 AM
Monks have to be Lawful, Barbarians have to be Chaotic to rage. Barbarian-Monks are a no-go.

I think I remember reading some trick that involved a Monk Bear-Warrior. I forget how it got the rage to qualify for the Grizzly in the first place, though. It might have been racial cheese.

Hat-Trick
2009-06-06, 11:06 AM
Monks have to be Lawful, Barbarians have to be Chaotic to rage. Barbarian-Monks are a no-go.


He took that into consideration and said he couldn't rage unless he was chaotic, but a lawful barbarian1/monkx works exactly as he says.

Riffington
2009-06-06, 11:14 AM
Monks have to be Lawful, Barbarians have to be Chaotic to rage. Barbarian-Monks are a no-go.

Monks have to be lawful to progress farther. Barbarians have to be nonlawful to rage. A monk with a one-level dip for pounce (no rage unless he stops being interested in monkness) is a go.

Actually, on farther calculation, if you allow leap attack + pounce, monk does even better. He lacks the rage (+3 hit/+4.5damage at high levels) so he invests 3 fewer points into his power attack. If he uses a quarterstaff vs a barbarian's greatsword, that means the Barbarian gets +17 extra damage on every hit at the end. But the monk gets +2 attacks, more than making up for this damage.

Gorbash: SR is not worthless. There are plenty of spells/magical abilities that one faces that are not cast by full-casters of your level with cheesed-up caster level. And if that's what you are facing, then a monk's saves (or his runaway speed) will certainly come in handy.

Pharaoh's Fist: if a barbarian spends 2 feats to have a meh will save, that puts him even farther behind the monk on feats. Not saying he shouldn't do it, but it's a sacrifice. The monk still has better saves, and now has even more combat options (leap attacking, tripping, grappling) vs the barbarian.

Callos_DeTerran
2009-06-06, 11:16 AM
Actually, you can skip out on buying a two handed weapon entirely and just use the...Hammer Fist feat?


Hammer Fist
You are trained in an unarmed fighting style that emphasizes two-handed strike.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Improved Unarmed Strike
Benefit: You may make a single unarmed attack with both hands to add 1-1/2 your Strength bonus on the damage roll. This extra damage does not apply if you make a flurry of blows attack or you are holding anything in either hand.
Special: For the purposes of Power Attack an unarmed strike made in this matter counts as a two-handed weapon for the purpose of calculating the extra damage from Power Attack. (This feat is seen in Races of Faerun and in Dragon Compenium pg. 100)


With that, the monk will actually have a higher base damage then a barbarian with each unarmed strike doing 2d10 instead of the standard barbarian greatsword's 2d6. Follow the same feat progression for Leap Attack+etc and the damage will scale roughly the same (assuming Full BAB bonus monk and same stats) once the monk hits the equivilent of 12th level until the barbarian's rage boosts his strength higher but comes out about even to the monk's higher unarmed strike damage. Now, once Pounce comes into the mix and Frenzied Berserker, the difference greatly increases again, but I was leaving those out.

raptor1056
2009-06-06, 11:25 AM
For the sake of coolness, my next campaign will disregard the no chaotic rule, and I will demand that one of my players build a barbarian/monk. And it will be awesome.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-06, 11:30 AM
Gorbash: SR is not worthless. There are plenty of spells/magical abilities that one faces that are not cast by full-casters of your level with cheesed-up caster level. And if that's what you are facing, then a monk's saves (or his runaway speed) will certainly come in handy.
Counterpoint: SR is worthless because even if you have SR of Infinity, Web, Glitterdust, Solid Fog, and the Orbs will still make you rue the day you met them, and rue it hard.

Re: Steadfast Determination

A level 3 Barbarian with a 16 in CON will have a will save of +8 when raging.

A monk will have a will save of what, 3+ Wis mod, so +7 assuming 18 in Wis.

If +8 is a "meh" will save, what is a +7?

ashmanonar
2009-06-06, 11:56 AM
Actually, you can skip out on buying a two handed weapon entirely and just use the...Hammer Fist feat?


With that, the monk will actually have a higher base damage then a barbarian with each unarmed strike doing 2d10 instead of the standard barbarian greatsword's 2d6. Follow the same feat progression for Leap Attack+etc and the damage will scale roughly the same (assuming Full BAB bonus monk and same stats) once the monk hits the equivilent of 12th level until the barbarian's rage boosts his strength higher but comes out about even to the monk's higher unarmed strike damage. Now, once Pounce comes into the mix and Frenzied Berserker, the difference greatly increases again, but I was leaving those out.

Ahh, the James T. Kirk School of Fighting has another graduate.

raptor1056
2009-06-06, 12:01 PM
Counterpoint: SR is worthless because even if you have SR of Infinity, Web, Glitterdust, Solid Fog, and the Orbs will still make you rue the day you met them, and rue it hard.

Re: Steadfast Determination

A level 3 Barbarian with a 16 in CON will have a will save of +8 when raging.

A monk will have a will save of what, 3+ Wis mod, so +7 assuming 18 in Wis.

If +8 is a "meh" will save, what is a +7?

Please, a little less condescension. This is just a discussion, and there is no need to be so abrasive.
Anyways, would it be reasonable to give the monk smaller DR at level 10, or would that be too powerful?

RS14
2009-06-06, 12:01 PM
For the record, everyone I know grants the monk Full BAB. It is still generally considered weak.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-06, 12:01 PM
With that, the monk will actually have a higher base damage then a barbarian with each unarmed strike doing 2d10 instead of the standard barbarian greatsword's 2d6.


Now, once Pounce comes into the mix and Frenzied Berserker, the difference greatly increases again, but I was leaving those out.

But you only get one attack.


Hammer Fist
You are trained in an unarmed fighting style that emphasizes two-handed strike.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Improved Unarmed Strike
Benefit: You may make a single unarmed attack with both hands to add 1-1/2 your Strength bonus on the damage roll. This extra damage does not apply if you make a flurry of blows attack or you are holding anything in either hand.
Special: For the purposes of Power Attack an unarmed strike made in this matter counts as a two-handed weapon for the purpose of calculating the extra damage from Power Attack. (This feat is seen in Races of Faerun and in Dragon Compenium pg. 100)

Gets better if you combine it with Decisive Blow though.

raptor1056
2009-06-06, 12:07 PM
Improved monk class finished. Titled "Brawler Monk." Restate question: is giving DR 5/magic at level 10 reasonable?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-06, 12:08 PM
Bit high for DR if you look at other classes that get it.

raptor1056
2009-06-06, 12:11 PM
Bit high for DR if you look at other classes that get it.

True, but other classes have significantly less suck than monks.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-06, 12:13 PM
But DR doesn't do much to lessen suck.

Now, giving the Monk a chance to count as one size category larger at level 6, again at level 12, and yet again at level 18 for the purpose of grapple, trip, bull rush, and qualifying for feats might help more.

Callos_DeTerran
2009-06-06, 12:14 PM
But you only get one attack.



Gets better if you combine it with Decisive Blow though.

Yeah I know, I was mostly pointing out that the monk can at least compete in the Leap Attacker school of fighting because the only time I'd use it was after already moving or on a charge. That, or see if it could be house-ruled to every attack instead of just once a round.

Faleldir
2009-06-06, 12:15 PM
If the Dragon Compendium version of Hammer Fist can be taken by a Human, that's where Lion Tribe Warrior comes in. It's still not quite as powerful as a Frenzied Berserker, and you can't take Headlong Rush, but it works.

Human Monk 18/Drunken Master 2
Shaky: Hammer Fist
Meager Fortitude: Great Fortitude
Human: Lion Tribe Warrior
1st: Flying Kick, (Power Attack)
2nd: (Improved Bull Rush)
3rd: Expeditious Dodge
6th: Shock Trooper, (Improved Overrun)
9th: Snap Kick
12th: Leap Attack
15th: INA
18th: ?

EDIT: I just read both versions of the feat, and neither of them work with a full attack. Don't tell me I'm wrong because I know, OK? I know my idea is impossible! Specifically, I know Hammer Fist only works with a single attack! When I posted this, I was hoping the Dragon Compendium version would be different! I don't need you to tell me! I'm not stupid!

And now that I've read it, that's one of the most poorly worded feats in the game. I can make a single attack? As what, a standard action? Should I assume it's a free action if it doesn't specify? Or can I make one attack immediately after taking the feat and lose it forever? It makes no sense!

raptor1056
2009-06-06, 12:24 PM
What exactly does Lion Tribe Warrior do?

Faleldir
2009-06-06, 12:28 PM
When you charge, you can make a full attack with one light weapon, or one attack with two light weapons.
So I guess in this case it's like Liu Kang's bicycle kick.

Gorbash
2009-06-06, 12:31 PM
Gorbash: SR is not worthless. There are plenty of spells/magical abilities that one faces that are not cast by full-casters of your level with cheesed-up caster level. And if that's what you are facing, then a monk's saves (or his runaway speed) will certainly come in handy.

Cheesy? :smallconfused:

What exactly is so cheesy about it? Did you calculate the cost of all those magic items? Those are standard items that wizard of that level will be able to afford and I don't see why is that cheesy. It's just high lvl gear, it's supposed to be good. It's like saying 'oh he has a cheesed-up +5 greatsword'.

And that's just one way of avoiding SR, I mentioned two more, and I totally forgot that the best school of magic, just plains avoid SR, so there you go.

quick_comment
2009-06-06, 12:37 PM
Keep the monk at 3/4th BAB, but give him an initiator level, access to shadow hand, setting sun, desert wind, diamond mind and stone dragon and then give him a bunch of abilities related to focusing on a single school.

Eloel
2009-06-06, 12:42 PM
Scrap the Monk, use Swordsage, call it a day.

quick_comment
2009-06-06, 12:48 PM
Thats what I said.


In my games anyway, I take all of the core martial classes at let people gesalt them. So if you want to play monk, it ends up being monk/fighter=kung fu master or monk/rogue=ninja.

raptor1056
2009-06-06, 12:55 PM
Scrap the Monk, use Swordsage, call it a day.

No. I don't have TOB, and I like being creative.

Eloel
2009-06-06, 12:56 PM
Was talking to quick_comment, I should've specified, my bad.

raptor1056
2009-06-06, 01:05 PM
Was talking to quick_comment, I should've specified, my bad.

No worries. Tables got screwed, but updated monk now in OP. Comments always welcome. I need to do some playtesting for my little buddy.

Riffington
2009-06-06, 03:27 PM
Counterpoint: SR is worthless because even if you have SR of Infinity, Web, Glitterdust, Solid Fog, and the Orbs will still make you rue the day you met them, and rue it hard.

Re: Steadfast Determination

A level 3 Barbarian with a 16 in CON will have a will save of +8 when raging.

A monk will have a will save of what, 3+ Wis mod, so +7 assuming 18 in Wis.

If +8 is a "meh" will save, what is a +7?

Sure, at level 3. But you've used 2 feats - if you're human you get one more (and you'll need it for extra rage). If most of your campaign is low level, the monk will actually have the fighting skills he needs while you're saving up for power attack. You'll finally get power attack at level 6; he'll be Leap attacking, improved grappling, tripping, and abusing Shock Trooper.

If we're talking high level, the monk's will save is just better than the barbarian's.

Why are we talking about hammer fist and the like when a monk can flurry with a 2-handed quarterstaff? Sure, he uses it more like a baseball bat than like a bo, but that's what happens when you spend a level in the Lion Totem club.

Also, I grant that cheesed full spellcasting makes a monk cry (even a full-BAB one). But he cries less than a barbarian. SR is not a panacea, but it's nice to have in a variety of situations. So are all-good saves. Heck, so is evasion.

/just for what it's worth, a +5 greatsword isn't cheesy. Pouncing is. A +1 shocking wounding keen spellstoring greatsword is. A caster level 3 above your level is. If these points aren't self-evident, then just pretend they're true for now.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-06, 03:39 PM
Sure, at level 3. But you've used 2 feats - if you're human you get one more (and you'll need it for extra rage).
Barb1/Ftr2 gives 5 feats, actually. And fighter dips are common for barbarians.



If most of your campaign is low level, the monk will actually have the fighting skills he needs while you're saving up for power attack.
Such as what, a flurry of misses?


You'll finally get power attack at level 6; he'll be Leap attacking, improved grappling, tripping, and abusing Shock Trooper.

Barb1/Ftr2/Barb3 lets you abuse ubercharging, and your DAD (Str and Con) lets you grapple and trip better than the monk, especially considering you can wield a guisarme for +2 to trip, reach, and a 2:1 Power Attack ratio.

You build a 6th level monk. I'll make a 6th level barbarian. Let's compare actual numbers, shall we?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-06, 04:02 PM
In fact, here (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=26256) is a 32 PB barbarian I threw together on the fly.

Will save is +6 when not raging, +10 when raging.

A monk at level 6 has a will save of 5 + Wis mod. Being generous, we give him an 18 in Wis. and the same cloak of resistance the barbarian has. He gets a +10 will save. They're matched unless we are in a surprise round, in which case the Monk has an advantage.

Of course, a +6 will save is hardly "meh", considering that its higher than that of arcane casters.

Feat wise, the monk has bonus feats of:
Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist
Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows
Improved Disarm or Improved Trip

And 4 other feats from class progression and being human. So we can give the Monk Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper... except that Leap Attack requires that you have 8 ranks in Jump, and Shock trooper requires +6 BAB. So no, a monk can't


he'll be Leap attacking, improved grappling, tripping, and abusing Shock Trooper.

Because he won't have Shock Trooper to abuse with his +4 BABso his level 6 feat has to go to Leap Attack. Now, to be fair, you could dip in Fighter at level 6 so as to get the two feats, but then you lose out on Improved Trip, which means you still can't be a "Leap attacking, improved grappling, tripping, and abusing Shock Trooper."

This does give you an extra feat though. Stunning Fist wouldn't be a bad choice, I suppose.

Now, on to the grappling part, a Monk has +4 BAB, +4 again with Improved Grapple. Assuming a 18 in Strength (being generous to the monk), we get a grapple mod of +12.

Is this better than the Barbarian's mod? Absolutely yes, because the Barbarian only has a mere +11... when not raging. When raging, it becomes +13.

Tripping? Trips are opposed Strength checks. Assuming 18 in Strength and Improved Trip, Monk gets +8.

Barbarian gets +7 when raging. You have your victory: You trip slightly better. Of course, you have to do it next to the enemy, while the Barbarian has a reach weapon...

Oh, and just incase: Disarming?

Locked Gauntlet, 15 gp.
Making the Improved Disarm feat worthless? Priceless.

ericgrau
2009-06-06, 04:11 PM
You can buff the monk until he has full BAB, d12 HD, full plate and a greatsword (or full plate AC and enchantable greatsword unarmed damage if you must), but that won't really fix anything. At best he'll be as strong as other martial classes, and if you do any less than this he'll be weaker. And either way in the eyes of these boards the monk will still suck no matter what you do.

Look into his special abilities & feats and consider what to do with those. Or add spells or another ability. Otherwise save yourself the trouble and cross out "monk" from your list of classes and call it a day.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-06, 04:13 PM
And either way in the eyes of these boards the monk will still suck no matter what you do.
Objection. Plenty of people like the concept of a martial artist, they just dislike the mechanics of the monk as presented in the PHB. Your statement is inaccurate and unfounded.

raptor1056
2009-06-06, 04:26 PM
Agreed. I designed the class outlined in the OP (admittedly, largely based on a few suggestions) because I have players who want to play Jet- Li type unarmed fighters. This is not an attempt to make a super-powerful class for the sake of optimizing. This is an attempt to make a reasonalby powerful class for the sake of creating characters who have a certain flavor, but remain at least mildly powerful.

Callos_DeTerran
2009-06-06, 04:40 PM
Why are we talking about hammer fist and the like when a monk can flurry with a 2-handed quarterstaff? Sure, he uses it more like a baseball bat than like a bo, but that's what happens when you spend a level in the Lion Totem club.

Because, unless I miss my mark, doesn't Lion Totem require the weapon to be a light weapon in order for it to qualify? Cause a quarterstaff doesn't count in that regard because one END of it only ever qualifies if your fighting with both sides.

More importantly, for the purposes of a charge attack, a monk is still better of using Hammer Fist and his unarmed strike past level 4 and it'll only get better. Hammer Fist only becomes worse if the monk somehow snares a Pounce ability, can flurry as a standard action, or has some absurdly powerful staff. And the unarmed strike would STILL be better if the DM house-ruled that Hammer Fist could apply to every attack instead of just one in a round. Heck, it's still better then the quarterstaff if the monk can't get pounce.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-06, 04:44 PM
Because, unless I miss my mark, doesn't Lion Totem require the weapon to be a light weapon in order for it to qualify?
No, works with all weapons. You're thinking of one of the Berserker Lodge feats or Catfolk Pounce or something.

Riffington
2009-06-06, 05:31 PM
Because he won't have Shock Trooper to abuse with his +4 BAB

To clarify, I meant a monk who was given Full BAB, as per this thread's initial conceit. I never meant to claim that the 3/4 BAB monk was better than a Barbarian. That would be stupid.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-06, 05:38 PM
To clarify, I meant a monk who was given Full BAB, as per this thread's initial conceit. I never meant to claim that the 3/4 BAB monk was better than a Barbarian. That would be stupid.

He still doesn't have enough feat slots at 6th level to pull off Improved Trip, Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper.

Riffington
2009-06-06, 06:31 PM
Lion Totem Cheese/Monk 5. Uses your attribute set, except switch Int and Wisdom. Put your armor enhancements on his Gi. Take Tumble and Move Silently, obviously, to take advantage of the Monk's skill selection.


Feats:
Lev 1: Power attack, Improved Bull Rush.
Lev 2: Improved Unarmed, Improved Grapple, Flurry
Lev 3: Martial Study (Sudden Leap), Combat Reflexes
Lev 6: Leap attack or Shock Trooper.
Lev 7: Improved Trip.
Lev 9: Leap attack or Shock Trooper (the barbarian doesn't get the other til level 12, and he's

Barbarian has:
*9 more hp.
*Didn't take the Extra Rage, so has 50% chance of having a rage available. (this may improve at higher levels)
*+3 AC (will decrease shortly)

Full-BAB monk has:
*probably gets the drop on the Barbarian due to sneaky skills.
*Double the Barbarian's movement (increases past 6th).
*If the barbarian somehow does get the drop, the monk has combat reflexes and can thus trip the charging barbarian while flatfooted.
*Better grappling.
*Sudden leap lets him charge even if they start a round next to one another.

If they face one another unbloodied, the monk is going to be grappling rather than starting with a leap attack. And once they start grappling, the +4 is going to be quite nice - especially with the flurry.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-06, 07:32 PM
Don't make me laugh.


Lion Totem Cheese/Monk 5. Uses your attribute set, except switch Int and Wisdom. Put your armor enhancements on his Gi. Take Tumble and Move Silently, obviously, to take advantage of the Monk's skill selection.
Take advantage of the Monk's skill selection with an 8 Int?



Feats:
Lev 1: Power attack, Improved Bull Rush.
Lev 2: Improved Unarmed, Improved Grapple, Flurry
Lev 3: Martial Study (Sudden Leap), Combat Reflexes
Lev 6: Leap attack or Shock Trooper.
Lev 7: Improved Trip.
Lev 9: Leap attack or Shock Trooper (the barbarian doesn't get the other til level 12, and he's
I was not aware that a level 6 monk had access to level 7, 9, and 12 feats.

Also, my barbarian gets Shock Trooper at level 9.


Barbarian has:
*9 more hp.
*Didn't take the Extra Rage, so has 50% chance of having a rage available. (this may improve at higher levels)
*+3 AC (will decrease shortly)
A level 12 monk is more powerful than a level 6 barbarian. Wow, I am amazed and shocked. Make up your mind. Are you going for a level 6 comparison or a level 12?


Full-BAB monk has:
*probably gets the drop on the Barbarian due to sneaky skills.
The barbarian I linked you to has +8 to listen.

Now, you said earlier that you used my stats. This means you have an 8 in Int, which results in a grand total of 4 skill points per level.

You, as a Monk, want Tumble, Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and Listen if you want to be all sneaky like.

Maybe Escape Artist and a few points in Balance as well to avoid being flatfooted when balancing.

You'll forgive me, but I doubt you'll have enough skillpoints to be an effective sneak.


*Double the Barbarian's movement (increases past 6th).
A higher level barbarian can afford things such as Boots of Striding and Springing, Boots of Speed or Anklets of Translocation to make up for lack of speed.



*If the barbarian somehow does get the drop, the monk has combat reflexes and can thus trip the charging barbarian while flatfooted.
Reach weapon. I attack you from beyond your threat range. The barbarian I liked you to has a Guisarme as his main weapon.


Better grappling.

Maybe due to the fact that, oh, HE'S A 12TH LEVEL MONK VS A 6TH LEVEL BARBARIAN?


If they face one another unbloodied, the monk is going to be grappling rather than starting with a leap attack. And once they start grappling, the +4 is going to be quite nice - especially with the flurry.
Lex Luthor says: WRONG! (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-306955.html)


Am I reading too much into this particular point on the rules, or does a monk indeed lose the ability to flurry during a grapple? Unless of course, he is actually using the attack your opponent option, with the -4 penalty for making an attack during a grapple with an unarmed strike?
No, you're not reading too much into it. You can't use your FoB ability to get more chances to make grapple checks (so you can't use FoB while trying to initiate a grapple either), but you can make unarmed strikes using FoB while grappled.

Check and mate.

Raewyn
2009-06-06, 07:38 PM
Does your monk have reach?

Also, you might want to let PF catch Aegis up to your monk's level before you try to compare the two.

D'oh, ninja'd.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-06, 07:46 PM
Aegis, Son of Stone (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=26256)

The Riff Master (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=26268)
(Note: Barbarian stats were 18, 14, 16, 8, 8, 8. Swapping Wis and Int like you said to do would have resulted in a different character, but I assumed you were referring to my earlier distribution of 16, 14, 16, 14.)

How do they compare? Like this?


Barbarian has:
*9 more hp.
*Didn't take the Extra Rage, so has 50% chance of having a rage available. (this may improve at higher levels)
*+3 AC (will decrease shortly)

Full-BAB monk has:
*probably gets the drop on the Barbarian due to sneaky skills.
*Double the Barbarian's movement (increases past 6th).
*If the barbarian somehow does get the drop, the monk has combat reflexes and can thus trip the charging barbarian while flatfooted.
*Better grappling.
*Sudden leap lets him charge even if they start a round next to one another.


Let us examine these statements in detail now that we have concrete characters.

For the Barbarian:

1. Barbarian has 9 more HP.

66.5-58.5 is actually 8. You are off by one, in your favor. However, when raging, the barbarian gets 12 more hit points. 78.5-58.5=20

Did you forget about the Con boost to rage? Quite something to overlook, considering it is the iconic barbarian class feature.

2. +3 AC

17-15 is infact 21. Barbarian AC drops to 15 when raging, so AC is the same.

For the Monk:

1. Probably gets the drop on the Barbarian due to sneaky skills.
The monk has +11 to Move Silently. The Barbarian has +8 to listen. This is an advantage to the monk, but by far a decisive one. If he had bought Gloves of Dexterity instead of Gauntlets of Strength, he'd have a +12 to Move Silently, however, his attack and grapple would suffer.

Oh, and you have no ranks in Spot, so how you scout is beyond me.

This raises the question of how you find the Barbarian in the first place. You have no Track, no Search, no Spot, none of the skills necessary for finding someone.

So unless you just popped into existence in his neighborhood, within line of sight of the barbarian, you aren't going to do so hot at finding and sneaking up on him.

2. If the barbarian somehow does get the drop, the monk has combat reflexes and can thus trip the charging barbarian while flatfooted.
A monk cannot make an attack of opportunity against a target he cannot threaten. The barbarian has a reach weapon. The monk does not have reach. The monk cannot perform this maneuver.

3. Better grappling.
While +14 is numerically better than +11 (+13 when raging), it is not a decisive advantage.

-------

Oh, by the way, that "meh" Will save that Barbarians have? Aegis has +6 normal, +10 when raging. Your monk has a +7, 4 from class levels, 2 from Wis, and 1 from a Cloak of Resistance.

Meh indeed.

--------

Edit:

Riffington, I am calling you out. The gloves are coming off. Partake of the Test of Spite, and we'll see how well your full BAB monk does against a variety of other PCs.

Coidzor
2009-06-06, 08:07 PM
The reason a monk is no good in a grapple is because of BAB. But if you give him the BAB, he can rule grappling because of his flurry of blows (extra grapples) and high monk unarmed damage.

Eh?! :smallconfused: Initiating multiple grapples at once? I can see flurry of blows being used to do more once inside of a grapple or just used to pummel more effectively using the attack guy you're grappling option...

....And how are you getting any character at all, much less a monk, to get attacks of opportunity on a creature who enters a threatened square rather than one who is leaving a threatened square? Unless I missed something that gave that monk reach...:smallconfused:

Fastmover
2009-06-06, 09:35 PM
So, I, like nearly every other player within the realms of my knowledge, have dreamed of playing a monk. It would be undeniably quite awesome to be able to fly into action, Jet-Li style, and disarm the enemy swordsman, trip the wizard, Stunning Fist the Rogue, and grapple the cleric. However, as is generally the consensus on these forums, monks are pretty damn bad. (Note-- no flaming! if you disagree, I am not interested in your opinion on this specific subject. No offense to any who disagree with me, this post is just based on the assumption that monks are underpowered.) Would the simple addition of a full (+1/ level) BAB:
A. Make the monk sufficiently powerful?
B. Make the monk overly powerful?
--i. If so, how can this be remedied?
C. Cause the monk to remain underpowered?
--i. If so, could this be corrected by:
----a. A d10 HD?
----b. The ability to move and full attack?
----c. Free multiclassing?

Again, there is to be no flaming here. If things get out of hand, I will request the closure of this thread.


Monk
Alignment
Any
Hit Die
d12.
Class Skills
The monk’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level
(4 + Int modifier) ×4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level
4 + Int modifier.

BAB: Full

Saves: All full.

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the monk.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Monks are proficient with club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling.
Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields
When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses her AC bonus, as well as her fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.
Meditative Fighting (Ex)
When unarmored and unencumbered, a monk may substitute her Wisdom bonus for her strength on attack rolls, damage rolls, and special attacks.
AC Bonus (Ex)
When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level).
These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load.
Flurry of Blows (Ex)
When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table: The Monk. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to -1, and at 9th level it disappears. A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows. At 6th level, a monk may make a flurry of blows as a standard action, and at 12th level, a monk may make a flurry of blows as a move action.
When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus × 1½ or ×½) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.
In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability. Even though the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, a monk may still intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough attacks in her flurry of blows routine to do so.
Greater Flurry
When a monk reaches 11th level, her flurry of blows ability improves. In addition to the standard single extra attack she gets from flurry of blows, she gets a second extra attack at her full base attack bonus.
Unarmed Strike
At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.
Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
A monk also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on Table: The Monk. The unarmed damage on Table: The Monk is for Medium monks. A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with her unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage; see Table: Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage.
Bonus Feat
At 1st level, a monk may select either Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist as a bonus feat. At 2nd level, she may select either Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat. At 6th level, she may select either Improved Disarm or Improved Trip as a bonus feat. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.
Evasion (Ex)
At 2nd level or higher if a monk makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if a monk is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of evasion.
Fast Movement (Ex)
At 3rd level, a monk gains an enhancement bonus to her speed, as shown on Table: The Monk. A monk in armor or carrying a medium or heavy load loses this extra speed.
Still Mind (Ex)
A monk of 3rd level or higher gains a +2 bonus on saving throws against spells and effects from the school of enchantment.
Ki Strike (Su)
At 4th level, a monk’s unarmed attacks are empowered with ki. Her unarmed attacks are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. Ki strike improves with the character’s monk level. At 10th level, her unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. At 16th level, her unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction and bypassing hardness.
Slow Fall (Ex)
At 4th level or higher, a monk within arm’s reach of a wall can use it to slow her descent. When first using this ability, she takes damage as if the fall were 20 feet shorter than it actually is. The monk’s ability to slow her fall (that is, to reduce the effective distance of the fall when next to a wall) improves with her monk level until at 20th level she can use a nearby wall to slow her descent and fall any distance without harm.
Purity of Body (Ex)
At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases except for supernatural and magical diseases.

Large Grapple (Ex)
At 6th level, if a monk has the feat Improved Grapple, she makes grapple attempts as if she were one size category larger. At level 12, this bonus improves to 2 size categories, and at level 18, it improves to 3. If a monk does not possess the feat Improved Grapple, any time she takes the feat, she gains this ability.
Wholeness of Body (Su)
At 7th level or higher, a monk can heal her own wounds. She can heal a number of hit points of damage equal to twice her current monk level each day, and she can spread this healing out among several uses.
Improved Evasion (Ex)
At 9th level, a monk’s evasion ability improves. She still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, but henceforth she takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.
Diamond Body (Su)
At 11th level, a monk gains immunity to poisons of all kinds.
Abundant Step (Su)
At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door, once per p[oint of wisdom bonus, as a move action. Her caster level for this effect is one-half her monk level (rounded down).
Diamond Soul (Ex)
At 13th level, a monk gains spell resistance equal to her current monk level + 10. In order to affect the monk with a spell, a spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the monk’s spell resistance.
Quivering Palm (Su)
Starting at 15th level, a monk can set up vibrations within the body of another creature that can thereafter be fatal if the monk so desires. She can use this quivering palm attack once a day per point of wisdom modifier, and she must announce her intent before making her attack roll. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be affected. Otherwise, if the monk strikes successfully and the target takes damage from the blow, the quivering palm attack succeeds. Thereafter the monk can try to slay the victim at any later time, as long as the attempt is made within a number of days equal to her monk level. To make such an attempt, the monk merely wills the target to die (a free action), and unless the target makes a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + ½ the monk’s level + the monk’s Wis modifier), it dies. If the saving throw is successful, the target is no longer in danger from that particular quivering palm attack, but it may still be affected by another one at a later time.
Timeless Body (Ex)
Upon attaining 17th level, a monk no longer takes penalties to her ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that she has already taken, however, remain in place. Bonuses still accrue, and the monk still dies of old age when her time is up.
Tongue of the Sun and Moon (Ex)
A monk of 17th level or higher can speak with any living creature.
Empty Body (Su)
At 19th level, a monk gains the ability to assume an ethereal state for 1 round per monk level per day, as though using the spell etherealness. She may go ethereal on a number of different occasions during any single day, as long as the total number of rounds spent in an ethereal state does not exceed her monk level.
Perfect Self
At 20th level, a monk becomes a magical creature. She is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the monk’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. Additionally, the monk gains damage reduction 10/magic, which allows her to ignore the first 10 points of damage from any attack made by a nonmagical weapon or by any natural attack made by a creature that doesn’t have similar damage reduction. Unlike other outsiders, the monk can still be brought back from the dead as if she were a member of her previous creature type.


"Wall of Text crits you for 12d6 points of damage."

Demons_eye
2009-06-06, 09:53 PM
Stuff


If I play a monk I would not play like that. Brute force it kinda not monkish (IMO). I would build him more Grapple/Battle control. I would try to get spike chain or metal whip cuz monks did have those weapons and go to town. I know he was saying a monk could do it but so could a wizard.

Also a monk that become chaotic still retains all monk abilties so he could be monk5/Barbarian1 and use rage.

Edit: also I would go for unamred strike all the way SuS(ToB) and INA(core)

Edit:Edit: If it was a PvP fight I would pick city bralwer varient Barbarian for TWF unamred strike.

Fuzzy_Juan
2009-06-06, 10:18 PM
Maybe it is just the way our group plays, but more often than not when someone plays a monk, they sneak all over the place and beat the crap out of stuff. A stunning fist in the suprise, then a good flurry which will often bring down any mook guard type. Usually works well inconjunction with a rogue ahead of the main party.

Maybe we just load up on the wacky, but never really noticed a monk being rendered useless, or even hampering the party. Not always a main source of the best damage, but more often than not helping to win the battle as much as anyone in the group.

Perhaps it is just situational, but against undead especially monk is just as good as a rogue or better i think (barring some spiffy magic or heavy wand/scroll use which is not always an option).

Now...if you wanna have some real fun though...in Gestalt, Monks rock when paired with pretty much anything. Monk/rogue = massive can of wh00p arse. of course, best if mixed with other things, but still nice...We have one guy who lokes playing a monk with some of the exalted stuff...don't know what...something that gives him some effect that hurts when he hits or is hit by evil...forces alot of saves and dishes out some mean damage.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-07, 12:08 AM
Maybe it is just the way our group plays, but more often than not when someone plays a monk, they sneak all over the place and beat the crap out of stuff. A stunning fist in the suprise, then a good flurry which will often bring down any mook guard type. Usually works well inconjunction with a rogue ahead of the main party.
Mook killing isn't exactly the most impressive thing. They're mooks.


If I play a monk I would not play like that. Brute force it kinda not monkish (IMO).
Hell, wandering around beating people up with your fists isn't monkish.


I would build him more Grapple/Battle control. I would try to get spike chain or metal whip cuz monks did have those weapons and go to town. I know he was saying a monk could do it but so could a wizard.
Could you present a build? I'd like to see what that kind of monk would look like.

The way I figure it, grappling is going to be a problem because you will run into monsters with much higher strength scores, monsters with higher strength scores and improved grapple, monsters with higher strength scores, improved grapple, and are bigger than you, monsters that fly, burrow, are ethereal, etc, etc.

Demons_eye
2009-06-07, 01:03 AM
My monk (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=131280) he sneaks around after seeing his foe and if he can uses the breath and necklace. When in Battle Ecstasy he gets Dr1/- +4dex and +4 con.

Edit my monk PC's dont go around beating people up they defend there self and use Finesse
Also you didnt say anything about teh rage

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-07, 01:10 AM
My monk (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=131280) he sneaks around after seeing his foe and if he can uses the breath and necklace. When in Battle Ecstasy he gets Dr1/- +4dex and +4 con.

Edit my monk PC's dont go around beating people up they defend there self and use Finesse
Also you didnt say anything about teh rage

Nothing against Rage, but you do use consumables, which, after being consumed, mean you can no longer rely on those tactics.

Even with Rage, you have a +16 con mod, which, to me, means you're going to have HP issues.

8 strength. You're going to have a hard time dealing damage. Now, you could make use of Ability Focus: Stunning Fist with your high Wis, but that means no grappling.

Demons_eye
2009-06-07, 01:12 AM
Using this threads monk wisdom to damge.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-07, 01:13 AM
Wis to hit as well?

Demons_eye
2009-06-07, 01:15 AM
Wis to hit also and with your build you dont have shock troper, might want to fit that in there if you want to be able to hit more easy.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-07, 01:17 AM
Wis and with your build you dont have shock troper, might want to fit that in there if you want to be able to hit more easy.

It was either Shock Trooper or Leap Attack. It's an either/or proposition, and its not terribly important for the sake of the argument Riffington and I were having.

Geddoe
2009-06-07, 01:17 AM
Objection. Plenty of people like the concept of a martial artist, they just dislike the mechanics of the monk as presented in the PHB. Your statement is inaccurate and unfounded.
The thing people need to realize, is that a fighter, barbarian, ranger, paladin, psychic warrior and, to a lesser extent, a combat focused rogue are all martial artists. You don't have to be Kwai chang Kaine from Kung Fu to be a martial artist, you could be a member of Company of Masters of the Science of Defence.

If they want to focus on unarmed + weapon strikes, then they just take Improved Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick(and optionally Superior Unarmed Strike), and they become as much martial artists(more really) as the monk without a bunch of nonsense powers tacked on.

Riffington
2009-06-07, 02:23 AM
Did you forget about the Con boost to rage? Quite something to overlook, considering it is the iconic barbarian class feature.

It's not tremendously useful given the monk's greater speed. If you're about to drop, he can run and wait til you die. In fact, if you ever rage, he can just run away and resume the attack when you're fatigued.



Oh, and you have no ranks in Spot, so how you scout is beyond me.

Spot and Listen are class skills for me, and my wisdom is better than yours. More importantly, you are wearing chainmail, making my scouting trivial.



The monk does not have reach.

The monk took the very same guisarme as you, just to keep things simple. We both have reach; I just happen to be able to also kick you if we're at 5'.
And I have tumble and can thus get inside your reach to that 5'.



3. Better grappling.
While +14 is numerically better than +11 (+13 when raging), it is not a decisive advantage.

It's not just +14 vs +11 (+9 if he raged and is thus fatigued when I come back to fight). It's also the fact that the monk gets 3 grapple attempts per round (flurry), and thus almost always succeeds on one of them. Should you get free on your first, you get a second attack at -5 with your bare hands (which provokes from me). On my turn I again grapple and do lethal unarmed damage in the process.

I'm not sure what this Lex Luthor business is, but you can flurry with any unarmed attack, and Grapple is an unarmed attack. A special one, but an attack nonetheless. If there's some reason he can't, explain.


Riffington, I am calling you out. The gloves are coming off. Partake of the Test of Spite, and we'll see how well your full BAB monk does against a variety of other PCs.
How does this Test of Spite work? I have no expectation that either of our characters can handle a Druid (or even a Sorcerer).

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-07, 02:32 AM
It's not tremendously useful given the monk's greater speed. If you're about to drop, he can run and wait til you die. In fact, if you ever rage, he can just run away and resume the attack when you're fatigued.
You assume this takes place in a featureless, obstacless terrain. What if it takes place in close quarters, where you cannot run away so easily?

Furthermore, how does your Monk know to run away and return after rage expires? Isn't that metagaming?

Furtherfurthermore, if you run away for a while, isn't that ending the encounter? The barbarian stops being fatigued at the end of the encounter.



Spot and Listen are class skills for me, and my wisdom is better than yours. More importantly, you are wearing chainmail, making my scouting trivial.

You instructed me to put an 8 in Int. You have no points in Spot if you max out Hide, Move Silently, Listen, and Tumble.

With 4 skill points per level, you cannot max out 5 skills. This is mathamatically impossible.



The monk took the very same guisarme as you, just to keep things simple. We both have reach; I just happen to be able to also kick you if we're at 5'.
And I have tumble and can thus get inside your reach to that 5'.
If you aren't going to use monk weapons, ie, the reason to be a monk... why be a monk at all?

Also, I have armor spikes.



It's not just +14 vs +11 (+9 if he raged and is thus fatigued when I come back to fight).
You can't pull out after you're in a grapple.


It's also the fact that the monk gets 3 grapple attempts per round (flurry),
...
I'm not sure what this Lex Luthor business is, but you can flurry with any unarmed attack, and Grapple is an unarmed attack. A special one, but an attack nonetheless. If there's some reason he can't, explain.
Did you read the link?


You can't use your FoB ability to get more chances to make grapple checks (so you can't use FoB while trying to initiate a grapple either), but you can make unarmed strikes using FoB while grappled.

Also, more people agree with me.


FAQ, even if it is correct, is ambiguous. You are free to use the Grapple attack action with a flurry. That is a touch attack to initiate a grapple, followed by an opposed grapple check. The other actions, once in a grapple? No. Flurry of Blows is not an extra attack from a high BAB. It is an extra attack from a special ability, which Grapple explicitly disallows, once grappled.


A couple of the rules you're assuming, Sir Giacomo, concern me especially. The first is the partially charged wands. (Surprise!) The second is the assumed ability to flurry in a grapple, which requires impressive contortions to treat as valid. (The FAQ listing referenced is nonspecific enough to be useless.)

Now, regarding flurrying in a grapple... the rules allow a full attack's worth of grapple actions, and flurry bolsters the full attack, so you argue the monk gets to flurry in the grapple. Do I have this right?

There are a few problems with this - most notably the very explicit grapple rules:


If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.
Your base attack bonus is unequivocally distinct from your Flurry of Blows attack bonus. There's even a separate table for each. Allowing one to be substituted for another is a house rule, since the text did not say "if you are allowed multiple attacks" or something of that ilk. If a Flurry of Blows, which is a non-BAB full attack routine, is allowed then in a grapple, then logically any full attack routine should be allowed, unless it requires weapons unusable in grapple. So now we have TWF grapples, and full natural attack routines performed as grapple checks. Ewww...

Another rules inconsistency lies in the text of Flurry - a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or special monk weapons. I think we can assume that touch attacks are included, so I don't mind a Flurry of attempts to start a grapple (possibly what the FAQ entry refers to, but more likely it's simply drivel), but a grapple check is explicitly separate from an unarmed strike. So the only consistent use of Flurry of Blows in-grapple is to make attacks at -4 with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon... never to make grapple checks. (And even this is in contravention of the construction of the grapple rules.)

Finally, for logic's sake... I can't use a Flurry of Blows while wearing lightweight, comfortable armor designed for only very mild obstruction to my freedom of movement. I certainly can't flurry while wearing a half-ton troll. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80704&page=69)

So basically, it is disputed if you can use FoB to start a grapple, and if you can use it in a grapple.

My Barbarian requires no ambiguous rules intepretations.



How does this Test of Spite work? I have no expectation that either of our characters can handle a Druid (or even a Sorcerer).
It's a series of PvP fights in a dungeon.

I'm playing a sorcerer currently.

Riffington
2009-06-07, 02:59 AM
You instructed me to put an 8 in Int. You have no points in Spot if you max out Hide, Move Silently, Listen, and Tumble.
Tumble gets 5 points, that's all one needs. Hide is not worth maxing out either when you move as fast as a monk.




If you aren't going to use monk weapons... why be a monk at all?
Also, I have armor spikes.

4 feats over the first 6 levels of monk (5 if you feel that improved trip is great but combat expertise is a waste except as a prereq for the improved trip). Flurry of blows. Great saves. Good grapple damage. Fast movement.



Did you read the link?

Yes, but it didn't make any sense.



Also, more people agree with me.
Re-read the people you just quoted. Talic and SevereDevil both stated you could use flurry of blows to initiate a grapple (which is the very thing I want). Once in the grapple, I don't need to use flurry to win, since I do damage via an opposed grapple check (which I typically win) whereas your armor spikes are -4 to hit and only get 1/2 strength damage. If you break out, I start it right back up with a flurry.







It's a series of PvP fights in a dungeon.

I'm playing a sorcerer currently.
Oh. Well, I bet your sorcerer can beat my monk.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-07, 03:13 AM
Tumble gets 5 points, that's all one needs.
The DC to Tumble past one opponent is 15. You move at half your speed. Failure to do so provokes an AoO. Each additional enemy after the first adds +2 to the Tumble DC.

5 ranks in Tumble and 14 dex nets you a +7 modifier. You fail 55% of the time. This is not "all one needs."


Hide is not worth maxing out either when you move as fast as a monk.
How are you sneaky if you don't hide?

Seriously.

You have to approach the Barbarian without being noticed somehow. I doubt you're going to dart from under cover 110 feet away just as the barbarian comes by, though flat and featureless terrain.


4 feats over the first 6 levels of monk (5 if you feel that improved trip is great but combat expertise is a waste except as a prereq for the improved trip). Flurry of blows. Great saves. Good grapple damage. Fast movement.

I concede this, but if I may get back to the point, remember when you said you'd trip me if I charged? Well, if you read the description of charge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge) you will notice that it doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity from you. So unless you ready an action against me charging you, it won't work.

And if you spend time readying an action, you aren't really... sneaking up on me and charging, are you?


Re-read the people you just quoted.
You were a little ambiguous about how you use Flurry in relation to grapple.


Talic and SevereDevil both stated you could use flurry of blows to initiate a grapple (which is the very thing I want).


Firstly, Talic said that "even if the FAQ is correct" which implies he does not think it makes a solid case.


Once in the grapple, I don't need to use flurry to win, since I do damage via an opposed grapple check (which I typically win) whereas your armor spikes are -4 to hit and only get 1/2 strength damage. If you break out, I start it right back up with a flurry.

Let us look at armor spikes.


Armor Spikes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm)
You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage (see Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack. The spikes count as a martial weapon. If you are not proficient with them, you take a -4 penalty on grapple checks when you try to use them.

Barbarians, being proficient with martial weapons, do not take the penalty.


You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can’t also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.)
Light weapon, eh? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#lightOneHandedandTwoHandedMeleeWeapons )


Light
A light weapon is easier to use in one’s off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and it can be used while grappling. A light weapon is used in one hand. Add the wielder’s Strength bonus (if any) to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or one-half the wielder’s Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder’s primary hand only.
n.

So I use it as a primary weapon and add my strength mod. 1d6 + 5 damage, equal to your 1d8+4 damage on average.

------

Some points you haven't addressed yet, and that I want you to.

You assume this takes place in a featureless, obstacless terrain. What if it takes place in close quarters, where you cannot run away so easily?

Furthermore, how does your Monk know to run away and return after rage expires? Isn't that metagaming?

Furtherfurthermore, if you run away for a while, isn't that ending the encounter? The barbarian stops being fatigued at the end of the encounter.

Furtherfurtherfurthermore, you can't really run away from a grapple, which you are by no means certain to win.

Oh, by the way, that "meh" Will save that Barbarians have? Aegis has +6 normal, +10 when raging. Your monk has a +7, 4 from class levels, 2 from Wis, and 1 from a Cloak of Resistance.

Meh indeed.

Eldariel
2009-06-07, 05:40 AM
Using this threads monk wisdom to damge.

You mean: This thread deals wisdom damage to anyone reading it.

ZerglingOne
2009-06-07, 06:13 AM
Here's another idea, make wholeness of body just as good as lay on hands. Have the monk use their Wis modifier like paladins use their Cha modifier. It'll up the monk's survivability significantly. Also, I've always taken Abundant Step as a free action. Think DBZ when you think of monk (aside from the giant ki blasts) they *vweet* in and out all day as if they're taking free actions. This will make your monk a force to be reckoned with for the first several rounds of combat in which they can port in, full attack, then port out. It also allows your monk to be a multi-enemy management character. Port, stunning fist, port, stunning fist, port, stunning fist, all at max attack bonus at later levels. This way you have 2-3 stunned enemies (likely) giving your team a free round essentially. These are just my suggestions for making your monk a viable combat PC.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-07, 06:41 AM
Riffington, here's the thing. I do not mean to say that your build is useless. However, in the situation you have set up, you only have an advantage when springing out from behind cover and charging at the barbarian.

In a dungeon, your mobility advantage is hindered. You won't be able to run away constantly while the barbarian uses up rage attempts. (Running away isn't the answer anyways, as the barbarian can do this thing called ready a weapon against charge, and certain weapons deal double damage. He's going to know you plan to charge him if you do so one time already, pounce, then run away.)

In straight combat, the barbarian does it better. In grapple, you have a slight advantage. You could flurry in a grapple, but your attack bonus is lessened.

You have better skills, though you fail to take advantage of your entire skill list due to having an Int of 8. Still, you can sneak around and spot things,

That's basically it. You have better skills, slightly better grapple, and if there is nothing in your way, for a hundred or so feet, charge from a great distance. This may happen all the time in your games, but it seems unlikely to be a constant occurrence in a realistic game world.

Indoors? No. In a urban environment? No, plus the guards will show up if you try to kill someone. In the wilderness? Maybe. This is the only place you can do it.

Which raises the question of what you are doing in the wilderness in the first place. You don't have the feats or skills necessary to track a Barbarian, and you said you wouldn't put any points in Hide, so he'd see you eventually. In the best interests of your monk, I gave him a decent hide check.

This still doesn't explain what you're doing in the wilderness without the ability to find your target, whereas the barbarian has survival as a class skill and can actually function outdoors.

Riffington
2009-06-07, 09:15 AM
5 ranks in Tumble and 14 dex nets you a +7 modifier. You fail 55% of the time. This is not "all one needs."
Recheck your math.




How are you sneaky if you don't hide?

You don't need the hide skill to be sneaky. I'm not even going to cover the hundreds of ways (magical and mundane) to not need it.




Barbarians, being proficient with martial weapons, do not take the penalty.

Armor spikes are a light weapon, as per the table. Since you are proficient, you don't get a -4 nonproficiency penalty to attack with them. Once in a grapple, you have two ways of damaging me with them. You can win a grapple check to inflict your unarmed damage or your armor spikes damage. Or you can attack me with a light weapon (such as armor spikes) at -4 (-8 if you were somehow nonproficient). Attacking me at -4 is a better plan for you with your primary attack than trying to win a grapple check at -0 (which is better for your iterated attack). Our damage may be equal this level, but I hit more often. And it just keeps going up at higher levels (as does my AC)



You assume this takes place in a featureless, obstacless terrain. What if it takes place in close quarters, where you cannot run away so easily?

I assume nothing of the sort. Sudden Leap is super helpful. Eventually, so is Twisted Charge (skill trick) cheese.



Furthermore, how does your Monk know to run away and return after rage expires? Isn't that metagaming?

It'd be metagaming to assume I know what his con modifier is (and thus exactly how many rounds his rage lasts). It's not metagaming to know that a barbarian's rage lasts about a minute.



Furtherfurthermore, if you run away for a while, isn't that ending the encounter? The barbarian stops being fatigued at the end of the encounter.

If you run away for 20 minutes, yes. For 2 minutes, no.



Furtherfurtherfurthermore, you can't really run away from a grapple, which you are by no means certain to win.
It's a series of iterated opposed checks, each of which I have a bonus to (+4, +2, or +6). The more checks required, the more significant my bonus is. Even if you're raging and it's only +2, I win 57% of the time and you win 38% of the time. That means in my worst-case scenario (you rage in the grapple and we just trade squeeze for spikes straight-up rather than pinning you as appropriate) I do 1.5 times your damage. At +4 I win the opposed checks 2x as often as you win them.



Oh, by the way, that "meh" Will save that Barbarians have? Aegis has +6 normal, +10 when raging. Your monk has a +7, 4 from class levels, 2 from Wis, and 1 from a Cloak of Resistance.

Meh indeed.
It's meh at high levels. At low levels, you don't have the feats for extra rage, so you don't even get to rage in most of your fights.

We also haven't gotten into the possibility that I'd take Deflect Arrows, just because I wanted to make this fight closer to fair (and because a tripper with Combat Reflexes is a wonderful thing). If I can move twice as fast as you and deflect an arrow per round, do you really need to run the PvP?

Demons_eye
2009-06-07, 09:22 AM
You forget if you take the barbarian level last and become Chaotic the monk can rage too. Or pick up the raging monk varient.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-07, 09:35 AM
Recheck your math.
This would go faster if you did it for me and showed me the error of my ways.

Ok, +7 to Tumble. You need to roll an 8 or higher to succeed. That's 60% success, 40% failure. This is still not "All one needs"




You don't need the hide skill to be sneaky. I'm not even going to cover the hundreds of ways (magical and mundane) to not need it.
You could at least give on example.



Armor spikes are a light weapon, as per the table. Since you are proficient, you don't get a -4 nonproficiency penalty to attack with them. Once in a grapple, you have two ways of damaging me with them. You can win a grapple check to inflict your unarmed damage or your armor spikes damage. Or you can attack me with a light weapon (such as armor spikes) at -4 (-8 if you were somehow nonproficient). Attacking me at -4 is a better plan for you with your primary attack than trying to win a grapple check at -0 (which is better for your iterated attack). Our damage may be equal this level, but I hit more often. And it just keeps going up at higher levels (as does my AC)


[11:03] Elealar: 60% to hit with your primary, 35% to hit with your secondary
[11:03] Elealar: in Grapple
[11:04] Elealar: I assume Rage isn't factored into those combat stats?
[11:05] Elealar: alright
[11:05] Elealar: that makes it 70% and 45% respectively
[11:05] Elealar: wait
[11:05] Elealar: that's not right
[11:05] Elealar: 75% and 50%
[11:05] Elealar: 'cause +4 hits AC 15 in 11


Our damage may be equal this level, but I hit more often.
You have the same AC as me when raging. When you flurry, you attack with a -1 penalty. This is not impressive. You hit slightly more than me, but I can absorb more damage.


And it just keeps going up at higher levels (as does my AC)
Someone forgot that Barbarians can wear Full Plate.

Hell, I could ditch the Light Fortification and just go Full Plate now. AC 20. How's that?



I assume nothing of the sort. Sudden Leap is super helpful. Eventually, so is Twisted Charge (skill trick) cheese.
Sudden Leap and the skill trick can only be used once per encounter, correct?



If you run away for 20 minutes, yes. For 2 minutes, no.
As per who's rules?

Two minutes is *twenty rounds*. That's a lot of rounds.


It's a series of iterated opposed checks, each of which I have a bonus to (+4, +2, or +6). The more checks required, the more significant my bonus is. Even if you're raging and it's only +2, I win 57% of the time and you win 38% of the time.

That means in my worst-case scenario (you rage in the grapple and we just trade squeeze for spikes straight-up rather than pinning you as appropriate) I do 1.5 times your damage. At +4 I win the opposed checks 2x as often as you win them.

Grappling is complicated. Give me some time to consult experts and re-read the rules.

Edit:


[11:10] Elealar: well
[11:10] Elealar: flurry is his best chance
[11:11] Elealar: since it's +0
[11:11] Elealar: he has 50/50/25 to deal damage
[11:11] Elealar: you have 75/50 to deal damage
[11:11] Elealar: you deal 1d6+7 per hit
[11:12] Elealar: If your numbers are correct
[11:12] Elealar: he deals 1d8+4
[11:12] Elealar: that is, if he's supposed to have 19 Str
[11:13] Elealar: 8,625
[11:13] Elealar: per turn
[11:13] Elealar: for 50/50/25 at 1d8+4 vs. your 75/50 at 1d6+7
[11:13] Elealar: 13.125
[11:13] Elealar: for you
[11:14] Elealar: 8,625 his damage per turn, 13.125 yours
[11:14] Elealar: that is, if all your numbers are right
[11:14] Elealar: this is while in rage
[11:14] Elealar: out of rage you hit at 65/40 for 1d6+5
[11:14] Elealar: (+7/+2 vs. AC 15)
[11:15] Elealar: average 8,925 damage
[11:15] Elealar: but his average damage goes way up
[11:15] Elealar: if you aren't raging
[11:16] Elealar: I'm not gonna count that right now
[11:16] Elealar: since the opposed grapple checks are a bit more complex
[11:16] Elealar: (although he could do decently trying to pin you and then damage you each round)
[11:16] Elealar: while raging though, it's decidedly in your favor
[11:16] Elealar: if he gets to grapple
[11:22] Elealar: 61.75% to win the grapple-checks done at full bonus
[11:22] Elealar: when you're not raging
[11:24] Elealar: and umm
[11:24] Elealar: 38.25% (I think)
[11:24] Elealar: to win the one done at -5
[11:25] Elealar: average damage
[11:25] Elealar: 13.74875
[11:25] Elealar: per turn
[11:25] Elealar: for him
[11:25] Elealar: when you're not raging
[11:27] Elealar: 13,74875 vs. 8,925
[11:27] Elealar: so when you're not raging
[11:27] Elealar: he probably wins the grapple fight
[11:27] Elealar: he should have enough HP to beat you
[11:27] Elealar: while when you are raging, you should win the grapple fight
[11:27] Elealar: and the non-grapple fight, you win anyways
[11:28] Elealar: (because you have higher AC)
[11:28] Elealar: there's ONE thing that's up to interpretion
[11:28] Elealar: that's unfortunately very relevant to the outcome of these fights
[11:28] Elealar: "In case of a tie, the combatant with the higher grapple check modifier wins. If this is a tie, roll again to break the tie."
[11:29] Elealar: now, the matter is whether the "higher grapple check modifier" refers to your total grapple check
[11:29] Elealar: or the one used for that check
11:29] Elealar: that is, whether it's str+bab+size+misc modifiers (such as Improved Grapple) or str+bab+size+misc modifiers as appropriate for the grapple roll



It's meh at high levels.
A level 20, that barbarian will have a will save of +6 class +5 (16 con +4 tome) +4 resistance = 15, +4+3 when raging. That's between +15 and +22

Your monk? +12 level + 7 (14 wis +6 item for wis, +4 from tome) +4 resistance = 23

Not so far behind you.


At low levels, you don't have the feats for extra rage, so you don't even get to rage in most of your fights.
Who says I need to?


We also haven't gotten into the possibility that I'd take Deflect Arrows, just because I wanted to make this fight closer to fair (and because a tripper with Combat Reflexes is a wonderful thing).
1.
You are wielding a Guisarme. It is a two handed weapon. You need one free hand to deflect arrows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#deflectArrows).

2. Remember how you went Barbarian 1/ Monk 5?

Improved Trip is a 6th level monk bonus feat. You do not have 6 levels of Monk. You do not have Improved Trip. You are not a tripper with Combat Reflexes.


If I can move twice as fast as you and deflect an arrow per round, do you really need to run the PvP?
Firstly, if you are deflecting arrows, you aren't charging at me with a guisarme or doing any tripping. If you are charging at me with a guisarme, you are not going to be deflecting arrows.

Secondly, I don't need the PbP. Want to know why?

Ahem.

Show of hands, folks! Who supports Riffington, who supports me, and who thinks we're both being silly?

Deth Muncher
2009-06-07, 09:39 AM
Show of hands, folks! Who supports Riffington, who supports me, and who thinks we're both being silly?

I declare shenanigans upon all of this.

Demons_eye
2009-06-07, 09:44 AM
^+1 shenanigans

ericgrau
2009-06-07, 09:47 AM
Objection. Plenty of people like the concept of a martial artist, they just dislike the mechanics of the monk as presented in the PHB. Your statement is inaccurate and unfounded.

In theory that's what they say they want, but no matter how much crazy good stuff someone stacks onto the monk someone always says "Ya, but he's a monk so he'll still suck even with that." Rarely do I see someone say, "Wait, that buff makes him too good" and even when I do someone else disagrees.

Meanwhile you ignore the rest of my post, which is to define what your goals are, and the purpose of this statement as well. If it's to fight exactly like a fighter/barbarian/warrior, to simply reflavor a greatsword as fists without anything special like rage or magic (but not exactly the same, or that'll be copying again), then it's a waste of time IMO. Reflavor your fighter without recrunching and pretend he has no greatsword if that really makes you feel better than hitting stuff with a sword. Or if it looks into existing class features then that's developing the core class. If it's making up new ones and changing all the monk's stats as well then that's a different homebrew martial class anyway and you should just start from scratch.

Deth Muncher
2009-06-07, 09:53 AM
In theory that's what they say they want, but no matter how much crazy good stuff someone stacks onto the monk someone always says "Ya, but he's a monk so he'll still suck even with that."


You know, I honestly think the monk is okay, assuming that everyone isn't making PunPun or Batman. I mean, Solo and I have a friend IRL who played a monk in the first campaign I ever played in. It was a halfling monk. He was crazy. He pretty much did all the things that a monk was intended to do: be a martial artist in insane ways. This was all Core, as I recall. He got most of the kills in the first few encounters, which was bastly important to us, given we were storming a castle.

Trust me, it's not the class, it's the player.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-07, 09:53 AM
You still haven't addressed this post.


Riffington, here's the thing. I do not mean to say that your build is useless. However, in the situation you have set up, you only have an advantage when springing out from behind cover and charging at the barbarian.

In a dungeon, your mobility advantage is hindered. You won't be able to run away constantly while the barbarian uses up rage attempts. (Running away isn't the answer anyways, as the barbarian can do this thing called ready a weapon against charge, and certain weapons deal double damage. He's going to know you plan to charge him if you do so one time already, pounce, then run away.)

In straight combat, the barbarian does it better. In grapple, you have a slight advantage. You could flurry in a grapple, but your attack bonus is lessened.

You have better skills, though you fail to take advantage of your entire skill list due to having an Int of 8. Still, you can sneak around and spot things,

That's basically it. You have better skills than the barbarian, slightly better grapple, and if there is nothing in your way, for a hundred or so feet, charge from a great distance more than the barbarian. This may happen all the time in your games, but it seems unlikely to be a constant occurrence in a realistic game world.

Indoors? No. In a urban environment? No, plus the guards will show up if you try to kill someone. In the wilderness? Maybe. This is the only place you can do it.

Which raises the question of what you are doing in the wilderness in the first place. You don't have the feats or skills necessary to track a Barbarian, and you said you wouldn't put any points in Hide, so he'd see you eventually.

This still doesn't explain what you're doing in the wilderness without the ability to find your target, whereas the barbarian has survival as a class skill and can actually function outdoors.

This is what has bugged me about your example. Your whole "run away to exhaust him, charge from beyond his distance, etc etc" tactics require lots of open space, ie, the great outdoors. But you are unequipped to handle the great outdoors.

You don't have Survival or Track, so you can't find the barbarian. What do you do, pop into existence within charging distance and have at it?

Congratulations, in the game no one plays, you are victorious.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-07, 09:54 AM
You know, I honestly think the monk is okay, assuming that everyone isn't making PunPun or Batman. I mean, Solo and I have a friend IRL who played a monk in the first campaign I ever played in.
My brother played a monk in is first DnD game. Wasn't horribly useful. At all.

Deth Muncher
2009-06-07, 09:58 AM
My brother played a monk in is first DnD game. Wasn't horribly useful. At all.

Thus, we have now cited examples of failmonk and winmonk. Thus making me lean back towards my assumption that it's the player, not the character.

http://i40.tinypic.com/2cx6s1t.jpg

elliott20
2009-06-07, 09:59 AM
to me, the best way to handle monks before ToB for me was always just integrating monk powers into feats and make them standard fighter feats available for all class selection. i.e. unarmored AC? feat. (and because it scales with levels, it's actually a pretty good one) monk fist progression? feat.

For me, this actually works better in terms of flavor as well.

ericgrau
2009-06-07, 10:02 AM
You know, I honestly think the monk is okay, assuming that everyone isn't making PunPun or Batman. I mean, Solo and I have a friend IRL who played a monk in the first campaign I ever played in. It was a halfling monk. He was crazy. He pretty much did all the things that a monk was intended to do: be a martial artist in insane ways. This was all Core, as I recall. He got most of the kills in the first few encounters, which was bastly important to us, given we were storming a castle.

Trust me, it's not the class, it's the player.

Oh I agree 110%. I'm merely pointing out the inconsistencies in the "fix" attempts. At the very least I'd like them to consider what they're fixing and go from there. If you have little understanding of what you're even tryng to fix, then please just start from scratch and make your own class that fits what you what a monk to be, instead of boosting something that you don't know how much to boost (if at all) because you don't know how to play him up to his full capabilities. If you think his capabilities / style should be something else then - again - start from scratch, instead of presuming the core monk has a certain goal because you want it to have that goal not because that's what it does best. As an exaggerated example it'd be like saying the sorcerer sucks too much at fighting so you buff all his fighting abilities up to full BAB & etc., while leaving alone or ignoring his spellcasting, because that's not the kind of sorcerer you want to play.

Grazhendul
2009-06-07, 10:05 AM
Suddenly that 1 lvl monk dip for druids becomes a whole lot more tasty.

Deth Muncher
2009-06-07, 10:08 AM
Oh I agree 110%. I'm merely pointing out the inconsistencies in the "fix" attempts. At the very least I'd like them to consider what they're fixing and go from there. If you have little understanding of what you're even tryng to fix, then please just start from scratch and make your own class that fits what you what a monk to be, instead of boosting something that you don't know how much to boost (if at all) because you don't know how to play him up to his full capabilities. If you think his capabilities / style should be something else then - again - start from scratch, instead of presuming the core monk has a certain goal because you want it to have that goal not because that's what it does best. As an extreme example it'd be like saying the sorcerer sucks too much at fighting so you buff all his fighting abilities up to full BAB & etc., while leaving alone or ignoring his spellcasting, because that's not the kind of sorcerer you want to play.

(As an unrelated note, lack of sleep made me read "capabilities" as "Cap-Abilities," and I wondered where Monks becoming Outsiders had anything to do with the thread. >_< Fails.)

Yeah. See, I'm fairly sure (and pardon me if this has been adressed, as I've not but browsed the thread) that if someone has issues with a monk because it's not doing whatever it's supposed to do, pick a different class and go from there. Presumably from ToB.

However, I REALLY like that one idea of taking Monk class features and making them into feats for other characters. I mean, in some capacity, that already exists: Stunning Fist, Improved Unarmed Strike, those feats from Oriental Adventures that got updated into either CWar or CAdv... But to take ALL the class features (well, minus the odd ones, like becoming an outsider or getting an ageless body) could be very well made into a feat-chain. Sort of like how you have the Heritage Feats? It could be like...Monastic Heritage feats.

THAT sounds like a decent fix, IMHO. Kudos to you, Elliot.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-07, 10:23 AM
Riffington, hate to break it to you, but I have been informed that the Wolf Totem UA variant can be used in conjunction with the Lion Spirit Totem CC variant. This gives me Improved Trip. Also, I have been told that by taking a fighter level at character level 6, I can get Leap Attack and Shock Trooper. So I'm in your base, shock troopering your leap attack at level 6.

Aegis, the version that comes about when I have had some sleep and time to design a barbarian properly. (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=26256)

This PvP just got more intense.

Outside of PvP, in the real world, which one of us does better against a wide variety of enemies?

Riffington
2009-06-07, 11:02 AM
You still haven't addressed this post.
This is what has bugged me about your example. Your whole "run away to exhaust him, charge from beyond his distance, etc etc" tactics require lots of open space, ie, the great outdoors. But you are unequipped to handle the great outdoors.

You don't have Survival or Track, so you can't find the barbarian. What do you do, pop into existence within charging distance and have at it?

Congratulations, in the game no one plays, you are victorious.
I haven't addressed it because I can't wrap my head around it. Are you really congratulating yourself for having Survival without Track, whilst tromping around the wilderness in chainmail (and now fullplate)?
As for maneuvering, if you've put yourself in a place without maneuvering space (a locked room, Tucker's Kobold caverns, etc) then you're in trouble. Most places, there's room to maneuver, and characters' speed matters. Whether you're in a castle, a house, a forest, a field, a city street, Parliament, Menzobarrenzen, etc... speed and maneuverability matter.
Anyway, I think I'm done with this discussion.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-07, 11:05 AM
I haven't addressed it because I can't wrap my head around it. Are you really congratulating yourself for having Survival without Track, whilst tromping around the wilderness in chainmail (and now fullplate)?
I'm not the one hunting down a barbarian to ambush him, am I? Anyways, while you can barely track with Survival (DC 10 or less), you absolutely, positively cannot track without Survival. At all.



As for maneuvering, if you've put yourself in a place without maneuvering space (a locked room, Tucker's Kobold caverns, etc) then you're in trouble. Most places, there's room to maneuver, and characters' speed matters. Whether you're in a castle, a house, a forest, a field, a city street, Parliament, Menzobarrenzen, etc... speed and maneuverability matter.
Your high speed hit and run tactics are less effective in a city or dungeonwhere the Barbarian can close a door in your face.

raptor1056
2009-06-07, 12:02 PM
Monk features as feats? Genius. That is absolutely wonderful. Very simple, elegant, and scales with level to make sure that all of the investment doesn't become useless over time. I think we now have a very simple and customizable way to make the monk what you want it to be. Also, feat trees could be set up to avoid people abusing stuff, although homebrew like this doesn't need to worry about that quite as much. Anyways, I'll work on getting those together. Thanks for the idea!

k, Pharoah and Riffington: Your argument doesn't seem to be generating any interest from any third parties, is pretty highly based on one example, and does not appear to be relevant to the fixing of the monk class to be playable on par with other melee classes. As I said, the intention is to scale monks to be playable as part of parties, not to be able to eat the world in PvP. Please continue any disagreements via personal messages. Thanks.

Demons_eye
2009-06-07, 12:26 PM
Riffington, hate to break it to you, but I have been informed that the Wolf Totem UA variant can be used in conjunction with the Lion Spirit Totem CC variant.


Multiclassing And Variant Classes
Multiclassing between variants of the same class is a tricky subject. In cases where a single class offers a variety of paths (such as the totem barbarian or the monk fighting styles), the easiest solution is simply to bar multiclassing between different versions of the same class (just as a character can't multiclass between different versions of specialist wizards). For variants that are wholly separate from the character class—such as the bardic sage or the urban ranger—multiclassing, even into multiple variants of the same class, is probably okay. Identical class features should stack if gained from multiple versions of the same class (except for spellcasting, which is always separate).

Might be reading it wroung but I dont trhink you can do that.

Edit: If you do use scaling feat you might want to do that for others like Weapon focus and toughtness

Paul H
2009-06-07, 12:27 PM
Hi

Monk with Full BAB? Simple - mix in levels of Cleric for Divine Power spell. Better yet take in Sacred Fist prC.

Human Cleric/Monk/Sacred Fist of Ffarlaghn (Domains: Celerity & Travel)

Str 10 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 16 Cha 10

1) Cleric: Combat Casting. Extra Turning
2) Cleric:
3) Cleric: Extend Spell
4) Monk: (Stunning Fist)
5) Monk: Evasion, (Combat Reflexes)
6) Cleric: Persist Spell
7) Sacred Fist:
8) Sacred Fist:
9) Sacred Fist: Divine Metamagic [Persist Spell]
10) Sacred Fist:

You have spells as 8th lvl Cleric.
Can DMM [Persist] Divine Power for Ftr BAB, +6 Enhancement to Strength, extra 8HP. All this lasts 24hrs (Your basic BAB is +8, PrC has full BAB)
Cast Magic Vestment for extra +2 Enhancement to Armour.

Speed: 50'/rnd (Base 30', Sacred Fist +10', Celerity Domain +10')
Base AC: +7 (Wis +3, Dex +3, Monk +1)
Unarmed Strike: +13/8
Flurry: +12/+7
Dam: D8+3

Spells as required

Cheers
Paul H

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-07, 12:31 PM
Might be reading it wroung but I dont trhink you can do that.

Lion Spirit Totem is CChampion. Wolf Totem is Unearthed Arcana. They trade away different things.

It is recommended that you don't allow this sort of thing, but that's a recommendation. It should be followed, but quite frankly, this was a pretty silly contest to begin with.

Eldariel
2009-06-07, 02:40 PM
Might be reading it wroung but I dont trhink you can do that.

If you read it as such, you couldn't take Spirit Lion Totem with the standard Barbarian either, as the standard Barbarian is Jaguar Totem and thus you'd be Jaguar Totem/Spirit Lion Totem. No, Spirit Totems and standard Totems aren't mutually exclusive.

Fuzzy_Juan
2009-06-07, 05:30 PM
Hi

Monk with Full BAB? Simple - mix in levels of Cleric for Divine Power spell. Better yet take in Sacred Fist prC.

Human Cleric/Monk/Sacred Fist of Ffarlaghn (Domains: Celerity & Travel)

Str 10 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 16 Cha 10

1) Cleric: Combat Casting. Extra Turning
2) Cleric:
3) Cleric: Extend Spell
4) Monk: (Stunning Fist)
5) Monk: Evasion, (Combat Reflexes)
6) Cleric: Persist Spell
7) Sacred Fist:
8) Sacred Fist:
9) Sacred Fist: Divine Metamagic [Persist Spell]
10) Sacred Fist:

You have spells as 8th lvl Cleric.
Can DMM [Persist] Divine Power for Ftr BAB, +6 Enhancement to Strength, extra 8HP. All this lasts 24hrs (Your basic BAB is +8, PrC has full BAB)
Cast Magic Vestment for extra +2 Enhancement to Armour.

Speed: 50'/rnd (Base 30', Sacred Fist +10', Celerity Domain +10')
Base AC: +7 (Wis +3, Dex +3, Monk +1)
Unarmed Strike: +13/8
Flurry: +12/+7
Dam: D8+3

Spells as required

Cheers
Paul H

Hah, now that is thinkin' outside the box. I approve of your build, sneaky, and cheesy without being too over the top disgusting. Now...for the monk's belt to get back some of that cleric dipping, and some nightsticks so we can extend a few more goodies...spiffy time.

Demons_eye
2009-06-07, 05:50 PM
If you read it as such, you couldn't take Spirit Lion Totem with the standard Barbarian either, as the standard Barbarian is Jaguar Totem and thus you'd be Jaguar Totem/Spirit Lion Totem. No, Spirit Totems and standard Totems aren't mutually exclusive.


Thats the point tho your the standard Barbarian, the base, the starter, the only one. Its not a variant, its the base. When they came out with all the others they might have named it but its still the start. You then add a variant to it to mkae it diffrent, not the same as the base. Having two variants of that same base is kinda dumb cuz then you could find 3 ones that all lose the same class feature and get 3 class features for one.

Edit for Ex:Most if not all Totem Barbarian lose fast movment and trapsense plus uncanny dodge but then if we mix them all you get like 12 first level feats

Aneantir
2009-06-07, 05:59 PM
Thats the point tho your the standard Barbarian, the base, the starter, the only one. Its not a variant, its the base. When they came out with all the others they might have named it but its still the start. You then add a variant to it to mkae it diffrent, not the same as the base. Having two variants of that same base is kinda dumb cuz then you could find 3 ones that all lose the same class feature and get 3 class features for one.

Edit for Ex:Most if not all Totem Barbarian lose fast movment and trapsense plus uncanny dodge but then if we mix them all you get like 12 first level feats

Lion Spirit Totem Barbarians lose Fast Movement and gain Pounce.

Wolf Totem Barbarians lose uncanny dodge, trap sense, and improved uncanny dodge to gain Improved Trip at level 2, and Track at level 5,

I fail to see where he's lost one class feature to gain three. He's lost a few class features, with no overlap, to gain a few different ones, he's not stacking them as you seem to be implying.

Eldariel
2009-06-07, 06:04 PM
Thats the point tho your the standard Barbarian, the base, the starter, the only one. Its not a variant, its the base. When they came out with all the others they might have named it but its still the start. You then add a variant to it to mkae it diffrent, not the same as the base. Having two variants of that same base is kinda dumb cuz then you could find 3 ones that all lose the same class feature and get 3 class features for one.

Edit for Ex:Most if not all Totem Barbarian lose fast movment and trapsense plus uncanny dodge but then if we mix them all you get like 12 first level feats

The base Barbarian is a Totem Barbarian too. That kinda eliminates the fluff reasoning for not being able to take Complete Champion-substitutions. Mechanically, obviously you need to have the ability you're giving up to take a substitution. It just so happens Spirit Lion Totem and Wolf Totem are perfectly compatible in that regard, just like Spirit Lion Totem and Jaguar Totem are (and Horse Totem).

These are all Alternative Class Features; they're not new classes, they are simply variants of the base class that trade a bunch of abilities for other abilities. Therefore, there's no reason not to allow other Alternative Class Features for the base class provided you still have what you need to give up.

That's the lynchpin point; you can't give up the same ability twice. If an ACF gives up, you can't take another one that gives up the same thing. However, two different ACFs that give up different things? Sure, knock yourself out. That's why you can't take more than two of the Totems given in UA; all of them give some of the same stuff up - there are always overlaps. However, many of them are perfectly compatible with the ones in Complete Champion, and with those, knock yourself out. One and same if your totem is Jaguar or Wolf, if you can have one while worshipping the Spirit Lion, you can have another.

elliott20
2009-06-07, 07:31 PM
Edit: If you do use scaling feat you might want to do that for others like Weapon focus and toughtness
Yeah, that sounds about right. the whole thing about making fighters a bit more interesting to play past level 6 basically means you need to do 2 things

1. create a lot of feats for them to take
2. create a lot of feat trees that go deeper, thus requiring more feats to get to.

if you do it right, you can basically try to do it so that you emulate a monk's class features across 6-7 feats. monk fist progression becomes one feat (build off unarmed strike), monk AC another (build off dodge), and so on. the trickier topic is how to handle the Monk's superior saves. one method is to change the normal save boosters to simply give the saves better progressions. But this would make the feats VERY powerful and make them accessible to just about anybody who wants to burn a feat.

so here's the quick list of feats that you will need to get MOST of the monk abilities

monk fist (req: unarmed strike)
monk AC (req: dodge maybe?)
Will save (changes will to better progression)
Fort save (changes fort to better progression)
Ref save (changes ref to better progression)
Leap of the Clouds
Increased movement speed
stunning fist (already in there, might need changing though)

This is pretty much how I handled monks prior to ToB. From a flavor standpoint, monks often didn't make sense to me either. So usually, to get the religious warrior (i.e. the sohei or the shaolin monk, which is what they were sort of based off of), I might just dip a level of cleric to get some religion ranks, some healing skills, and go back to fighter after.

of course, when ToB came around, the swordsage was just too much fun to pass up.

raptor1056
2009-06-07, 11:42 PM
Yeah, that sounds about right. the whole thing about making fighters a bit more interesting to play past level 6 basically means you need to do 2 things

1. create a lot of feats for them to take
2. create a lot of feat trees that go deeper, thus requiring more feats to get to.

if you do it right, you can basically try to do it so that you emulate a monk's class features across 6-7 feats. monk fist progression becomes one feat (build off unarmed strike), monk AC another (build off dodge), and so on. the trickier topic is how to handle the Monk's superior saves. one method is to change the normal save boosters to simply give the saves better progressions. But this would make the feats VERY powerful and make them accessible to just about anybody who wants to burn a feat.

so here's the quick list of feats that you will need to get MOST of the monk abilities

monk fist (req: unarmed strike)
monk AC (req: dodge maybe?)
Will save (changes will to better progression)
Fort save (changes fort to better progression)
Ref save (changes ref to better progression)
Leap of the Clouds
Increased movement speed
stunning fist (already in there, might need changing though)

This is pretty much how I handled monks prior to ToB. From a flavor standpoint, monks often didn't make sense to me either. So usually, to get the religious warrior (i.e. the sohei or the shaolin monk, which is what they were sort of based off of), I might just dip a level of cleric to get some religion ranks, some healing skills, and go back to fighter after.

of course, when ToB came around, the swordsage was just too much fun to pass up.


I don't think the superior saves need to be emulated, really. The useless abilities can be forgotten, as well. Stunning Fist will, I think, need a new prerequisite, that being some obscenely long Monk feat tree. I now must sleep.

elliott20
2009-06-07, 11:50 PM
Really? are the superior saves really that unimportant? I kinda figured it was one of the few things Monks got going for them. I also forgot the SR ability. I'm still trying to figure out how to handle that.

Maybe some kind of character level x Y + ability modifier. (Or for a more obscene version, character level x ability modifier)

to go with that, I'd probably just change the other feats like weapon focus to +hit / 3 character levels so that it makes fighters and other feat dependent classes more powerful again.

though, this is getting into homebrew territory, so maybe I'll write up the feat revisions and post it there. It won't do too much to bridge the caster - non-caster gap, but it will help non-casters have a slight umph.

Eldariel
2009-06-08, 12:03 AM
Fighters already have class features/feats for Will-saves, as do Barbarians. Fighters get this wonderful Alternative Class Feature in Complete Champion called "Resolute" that allows adding half their BAB to Will-saves as an immediate action. It means they're only behind Clerics and Druids, quite competitive with Wizards and Sorcerers (or in general, good progression classes without Wisdom-focus).

And Barbarian gets +2 Morale from his Rage. Add to that Steadfast Determination and that's +4. And his base Con is 16-18 anyways. Suddenly Barb adds his second highest stat to Will-saves along with bonuses. Level 1 Barbarians with +8 Will-save anyone? That beats a 20 Wis Druid, for the record. They also get Greater Rage on 10 that adds extra Con (and thus, extra Will-save) and Morale to Will-saves.

If you pick up Instantaneous Rage (also great for the Intimidating Rage/Imperious Command-line), you suddenly can use it basically whenever you need to make a Will-save. A Barbarian like this really rivals a Resolute Fighter in Will-saves and is only a dog to high-level Druids and Clerics (those two classes have the best Will-save in the game due to Wis SAD and good progression; Barbarian gets enough class features to match them though).


Take a simple Barbarian 20 with 26 base Con (16 bought, +4 inherent, +6 item). Instantaneous Rage puts him at 34 Con, +4 Morale and Indomitable Will for additional +4 vs. enchantment. His base Will-save is +6. This comes out at +22. And then we can add 5-6 resistance for +27-+28.

Fighter 20 gets +10 from Resolute, so all he needs is like 16 Wis (10 bought, +6 item, fair?), +5 cloak and he's looking at +24. +25 if under Superior Resistance, +26 if he happens to have Mage Slayer (not unlikely on these levels for a lockdown type). It's not amazing, but it's not horrible either.


For the record, Cleric/Druid should have about a base of 12+12-13+5-6, or +29-+31 or so. However, Druid has, among others, Owl's Insight (+½ CL to Wisdom) for extra +5 and Cleric has various morale boosts and such so they're really both at +35 or so whole day.

The Monk is about the same as the Fighter here; I can't see him getting more than 12+8 Wis (16+6 item+4 inherent = 26) + 6 = 26.

elliott20
2009-06-08, 01:02 AM
huh... I don't have complete champions...

there needs to be a book/database that has a compilation of all published feats out there. Actually. I'm pretty sure there is one.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-08, 03:59 AM
Thats the point tho your the standard Barbarian, the base, the starter, the only one. Its not a variant, its the base. When they came out with all the others they might have named it but its still the start. You then add a variant to it to mkae it diffrent, not the same as the base. Having two variants of that same base is kinda dumb cuz then you could find 3 ones that all lose the same class feature and get 3 class features for one.


Screw the rules, I have money!

Paul H
2009-06-08, 06:25 AM
Hi

Forgot about the SR? My suggested build includes Cleric levels, so just cast Spell Resistance & you're away.... :smallsmile:

Cheers
Paul H

Paul H
2009-06-08, 07:36 AM
Hi

Encouraged by Fuzzy's comment - I'v made character up to 15th lvl:

Monk with Full BAB? Simple - mix in levels of Cleric for Divine Power spell. Better yet take in Sacred Fist prC.

Human Cleric/Monk/Sacred Fist of Ffarlaghn (Domains: Celerity & Travel)

Str 10 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 16 Cha 10

1) Cleric: Combat Casting. Extra Turning
2) Cleric:
3) Cleric: Extend Spell
4) Monk: (Stunning Fist) +1 Wis
5) Monk: Evasion, (Combat Reflexes)
6) Cleric: Persist Spell
7) Sacred Fist:
8) Sacred Fist: +1 Wis
9) Sacred Fist: Divine Metamagic [Persist Spell]
10) Sacred Fist:
11) Sacred Fist:
12) Sacred Fist: Extra Turning. +1 Wis
13) Sacred Fist:
14) Sacred Fist:
15) Sacred Fist: Practiced Spellcaster [Cleric]

You have spells as 13th lvl Cleric. [CL 15 with PS Cleric]

Speed: 70'/rnd (Base 30', Sacred Fist +30', Celerity Domain +10')

Base AC: 40 (Dex +8, Wis +7,Deflect +4, Sacred Fist +2, Magic Vestment +3, Gtr Mage Armour +6)

HP 15D8+15 (Con)+15 (Temp from Divine Power)

Unarmed Strike: +21/16/11 (Divine Power/Gtr Magic Wpn)
Flurry: +20/20/15/10 (Divine Power/Gtr Magic Wpn)
Dam: D10+6 (Plus spells)
Sacred Flames 2/Day 16 dam. (Half Fire, half Divine)
Blindsense 10'

Divine Metamagic 2/Day
(Divine Power & Divine Agility taken)

Spells as required, though taken Divine Power (DMM), Divine Agility [+10 Dex] (DMM), Magic Vestment, Gtr Magic Wpn
Suggest take Heroes Feast for party Poison & Fear immunity, plus 'Aid'

Includes following Magic Items:
Cloak Cha +6
Periapt Wis +6
Ring Deflection +4 (Though could use 7th lvl slot for Persistant Shield of Faith for same effect)

Cheers
Paul H

quick_comment
2009-06-08, 07:39 AM
The monk's SR is actually a disadvantage

Paul H
2009-06-08, 08:32 AM
Hi


The monk's SR is actually a disadvantage

Huh?

Cheers
Paul H

Eldariel
2009-06-08, 10:44 AM
huh... I don't have complete champions...

there needs to be a book/database that has a compilation of all published feats out there. Actually. I'm pretty sure there is one.

Feat Index (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats) from WoTC is a solid resource. Crystalkeep (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php) also has one, albeit slightly less complete (lacks some settings specific stuff and everything psionic).

That said, Resolute is an Alternative Class Feature for Fighters only, not a feat. True, it replaces one Fighter bonus feat (any even-leveled one, so you can take it level 2) and thus is exactly as valuable as a feat, but it's still important to note that it's a Fighter-only ability.


Huh?

You need to take a standard action to lower it to be buffed or healed. Makes combat much more lethal for you as your allies cannot help you unless you lower your protections. Reactive Resistance [Drow of the Underdark] helps a lot there though, but still... And offensive casters can generally penetrate it trivially with Assay Resistance [SC] or just Spell Penetration+Greater Spell Penetration.