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Olo Demonsbane
2009-06-06, 10:20 PM
The thread title says it all. It might be something like the Greathorn Greathammer or something like that, and I think it is in one of the Monster Manuals.

Also, on a related note, how does reach increase with size?

Sinfire Titan
2009-06-06, 10:38 PM
1d12, 19-20 x4. Some people will tell you it's just the x4, not 19-20. These people don't like melee classes having nice things.


It becomes 3d6 (or was it 2d8?) when your Size increases. Grab EWP Heavy Greathammer, pick up a pair of Strongarm Bracers and a Large-sized Platinum Greathammer, and you're looking at about 4d6, 19-20 x4 worth of murder. Platinum is in Magic of Faerun, Strongarm Bracers in the MiC. Greathammer is in MM5, BTW.


Size categories are explained in the PHB, somewhere in the Combat chapter.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-06-06, 10:45 PM
Thank you for that.

Yeah I get how damage increases with size. The PHB does not say anywhere how much it increases in reach.

Coidzor
2009-06-06, 10:46 PM
Reach increases in increments of 5 feet, generally by one increment every size category from medium you go. Long creatures are an increment less unless that would take them less than 5 feet.

I think.

Around page 131 is the Creature Size and Scale table... Table 8-7: Creature Size and Scale.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-06, 10:47 PM
Thank you for that.

Yeah I get how damage increases with size. The PHB does not say anywhere how much it increases in reach.Weapon size has no effect on reach. So wielding a weapon several size categories larger than you are has no actual mechanical effect on reach, no matter how confusing that is(especially with reach weapons).

Faleldir
2009-06-06, 10:55 PM
If you think the high crit is overpowered, remember that a Minotaur greathammer has no listed price. That might be an oversight, but it might also mean that only a specific type of monster drops it. There's your mitigating factor.

Sinfire Titan
2009-06-06, 11:00 PM
Weapon size has no effect on reach. So wielding a weapon several size categories larger than you are has no actual mechanical effect on reach, no matter how confusing that is(especially with reach weapons).

Yeah, I know. Imagine this: Fighter with Major Titan Bloodline. DM rules he has the ability as written in the MM, so he can wield Gargantuan weapons one handed with no penalty. He picks up a Gargantuan Longspear/Lance/Glaive, and is only able to threaten the spaces he could normally without the oversized weapon. Not only does this not make sense physically, it only makes the option a worse choice aside from extra damage.

Same situation, except replace the references to Major Titan Bloodline with Powerful Build, and Gargantuan with Large. Character picks up a Large Glaive, a weapon easily twice his size, and can't hit things more than 10ft away. This is despite the weapon being a full 15ft or more in length.


Man, I wish I had some of the stuff the developers smoke when they wrote some of this garbage. If it's that powerful, it should be able to kill a moose in one puff!

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-06, 11:12 PM
Yeah, I know. Imagine this: Fighter with Major Titan Bloodline. DM rules he has the ability as written in the MM, so he can wield Gargantuan weapons one handed with no penalty. He picks up a Gargantuan Longspear/Lance/Glaive, and is only able to threaten the spaces he could normally without the oversized weapon. Not only does this not make sense physically, it only makes the option a worse choice aside from extra damage.Want one worse? Pixie with the Major Titan Bloodline. Wields a Gargantuan Longspear. Cannot affect things outside her square. With the GARGANTUAN REACH WEAPON, she cannot affect things more than 5 ft away. Hell, the weapon itself qualifies as Gargantuan, and if wielded by an appropriately sized creature wouldn't affect anything within 20'.

The Glyphstone
2009-06-06, 11:15 PM
What's all this nonsense about Gargantuan Longspears and Lances? The Oversized Weapon ability only works with Warhammers anyways.:smallsmile:

IM@work
2009-06-06, 11:20 PM
The greathammer is in MM4, not MM5.

I personally like to do a critical hits build with this weapon as there a number of awesome weapon enhancements that can do some pretty nasty extra damage with this. Take Disciple of Dispater from BoVD and you can have over a x4 crit and over a 15-20 range if I recall correctly. Also, if you throw in the Blood in the Water stance from Tome of Battle, and Lightning Maces feat and aptitude weapons... things get ridiculously cheesy.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-06-06, 11:35 PM
Thanks everyone. My character now does tons of damage with his Greathammer :smallbiggrin:

quick_comment
2009-07-17, 08:03 PM
1d12, 19-20 x4. Some people will tell you it's just the x4, not 19-20. These people don't like melee classes having nice things.No, you're thinking of the silly killjoys who say that the Tome of Battle unbalances the game.
If this hammer thing were somehow a part of a coordinated effort to give melee classes some extra power by messing with the crit-giving stats of all the weapons in the game (a new special material, design property or some such), or at least introducing a diverse subset of super-crit martial weapons, it wouldn't be broken. However, just taking the EXOTIC mercurial greatsword, making it a d12 hammer instead of a 2d6 sword and making it a MARTIAL weapon basically makes just about every other martial weapon obsolete. That is by definition game breaking. In a world where these ungodly things exist, there would be no greatswords, greataxes, mauls etc. All of these weapons suddenly stop being logical choices for melee characters when this hammer type comes into play. If you're going to introduce an option that makes every other choice it its category look like chopped liver, then at least try to add enough new and diverse choices that utilize the new mechanics. The ToB does this. Like the ToB, the introduction of this weapon does not make melee warriors anywhere near equal to casters, but unlike the ToB it does not provide sufficient options that replace the ones that are rendered obsolete (or at least nearly so) by the new ones introduced.

If you want to homebrew a ToB-scale facelift of how critical hits work, fine! But if you're just going to accept the greathammer as a martial weapon, be prepared for a world where the warriors use nothing but Greathammers. And to me that sounds a bit boring.

I say that we must assume that there was a misprint and that it should be an exotic weapon- but Greathorn Minotaurs get to treat it like a martial one. This is most consistent with the existing 3.5 rules.

Kyeudo
2009-07-17, 08:23 PM
<rant about martial greathammers>

Greathammers are Exotic Weapons, not martial. Greathorn Minotaurs get racial profiency in them, but that's it. They are not martial weapons without a houserule. You get a 2 steps better critical over a greataxe for 1 feat. It's not broken.

quick_comment
2009-07-17, 10:02 PM
Whoops. I somehow missed that on my cursory scan of the page in the book. And the folks in this thread seemed to be talking about it as if it were a martial weapon. My mistake.

Thurbane
2009-07-18, 01:56 AM
The 19-20/x4 critical isn't necessarily broken, but it is out of line with every other exotic weapon that I can think of...

T.G. Oskar
2009-07-18, 02:12 AM
The greathammer is in MM4, not MM5.

I personally like to do a critical hits build with this weapon as there a number of awesome weapon enhancements that can do some pretty nasty extra damage with this. Take Disciple of Dispater from BoVD and you can have over a x4 crit and over a 15-20 range if I recall correctly. Also, if you throw in the Blood in the Water stance from Tome of Battle, and Lightning Maces feat and aptitude weapons... things get ridiculously cheesy.

One level of Master of Masks, levels in Disciple of Dispater, start as Warblade, perhaps get Stormguard Warrior, Lightning Maces, TWF and other feats plus Monkey Grip (or start with Powerful Build), get two Light Maces of a size larger than yours and made by a Kaorti. I'd also go with an Expansion tattoo or two, or the belt that raises your size (Belt of Growth?). If you want to really make it hilarious, see if you can do it all the way to get to Time Stands Still, Raging Mongoose, Adamantine Hurricane and Avalanche of Blades. Heck, if you're feeling lucky, then get Combat Reflexes AND Robilar's Gambit if you get the chance.

Then get to town. The damage may be cruddish, but any weapon that's x4 and can reach 15-20, and taking advantage of Combat Rhythm before unleashing the REAL bunch of strikes.

Other recommendations are: find a way to get invisible, get any way to have all your attacks become touch weapons, Boots of Speed, Snap Kick, any way to increase your unarmed strike damage.

Or, replace the light maces and Lightning Maces with that big greathammer, and go Shock Trooper build. Extra points if it gets to Platinum.

Eloel
2009-07-18, 02:47 AM
The 19-20/x4 critical isn't necessarily broken, but it is out of line with every other exotic weapon that I can think of...

It actually IS broken. It's 26x damage over 20 hits. The closest you get is 23x, with 18-20/x2 & 20/x4. That's an average of 13% increase in damage (with ALL modifiers), on top of the 1d12 damage dice. That makes anything non-special (disarming/tripping/reach) obsolete.

#Raptor
2009-07-18, 05:13 AM
1d12, 19-20 x4. Some people will tell you it's just the x4, not 19-20. These people don't like melee classes having nice things.

It becomes 3d6 (or was it 2d8?) when your Size increases. Grab EWP Heavy Greathammer, pick up a pair of Strongarm Bracers and a Large-sized Platinum Greathammer, and you're looking at about 4d6, 19-20 x4 worth of murder. Platinum is in Magic of Faerun, Strongarm Bracers in the MiC. Greathammer is in MM5, BTW.Yepp. Can I agree strongly enough?

Didn't know the Platinum enhancement btw. Very nice - certainly useful if your arcane caster doesn't have races of the dragon (for greater mighty wallop).


And as nice as it is, of the top of my head I can still think of several builds that have no use for the 19-20/x4 Greathammer:

- Frenzied Berserkers. Theyr just too featstarved. If I have to decide between EWP or Leap Attack/Shock Trooper for my next level... well, yeah. I'm sure theyre are plenty of other, similary feat starved builds, but FB's are a favorite of mine, so there.

- Anything that wants to make use of Exotic weapon master. Uncanny blow only works with onehanded exotic weapons.

- Anyone that wants to get a great (not just good) crit range without paying too much for it. A scabbard of keen edges can't be used with bludgeoning weapons, you can't even get keen on your greathammer as a enhancement. You gotta take Improved Critical. When you compare a greatsword to a greathammer, keep in mind that the greatsword becomes a 17-20/x2 weapon later.

- Trippers. Duh.

- TWFers. Double duh. (And before someone points out that TWF is hardly optimized: Jack B. Quick. I'd link to it, but looks like gleemax is dead right now.)

I'm sure there are plenty of other builds that would have absolutely no use for the greathammer that I don't remember right now.
To me, that means one thing. The greathammer with 19-20/x4 is a excellent option. But its not so good that it pigeonholes you into this one option and thats it. Having multiple decent options is a good thing, and so is the greathammer.

Kyeudo
2009-07-18, 09:46 AM
The 19-20/x4 critical isn't necessarily broken, but it is out of line with every other exotic weapon that I can think of...

That's because every other exotic weapon except the spiked chain sucks. Most only offer a single increase of damage dice or a one step better critical over a martial weapon. As a whole, Exotic Weapon Proficiency is just not quite enough to spend a feat on, but the few gems always get called broken.


It actually IS broken. It's 26x damage over 20 hits. The closest you get is 23x, with 18-20/x2 & 20/x4. That's an average of 13% increase in damage (with ALL modifiers), on top of the 1d12 damage dice. That makes anything non-special (disarming/tripping/reach) obsolete.

How does Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Greathammer) compare to Power Attack in terms of damage return? How about Leap AttacK? I'd like to know how it stacks up against other, proven fighter feats before I call it anything but viable.

Oh, and note that you can't keen a greathammer, since it's bludgeoning. Gotta get Improved Critical for it, which is more expensive to a character.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-18, 09:47 AM
It actually IS broken. It's 26x damage over 20 hits. The closest you get is 23x, with 18-20/x2 & 20/x4. That's an average of 13% increase in damage (with ALL modifiers), on top of the 1d12 damage dice. That makes anything non-special (disarming/tripping/reach) obsolete.It's an Exotic weapon. It's supposed to be strictly better than any martial weapon. It's still not the best choice for everyone, or even most people(how many builds can afford to blow a feat for a slightly better crit?), it's simply a good weapon in terms of damage with the best crit out there.

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-18, 10:15 AM
That's because every other exotic weapon except the spiked chain sucks. Most only offer a single increase of damage dice or a one step better critical over a martial weapon. As a whole, Exotic Weapon Proficiency is just not quite enough to spend a feat on, but the few gems always get called broken.



How does Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Greathammer) compare to Power Attack in terms of damage return? How about Leap AttacK? I'd like to know how it stacks up against other, proven fighter feats before I call it anything but viable.

Oh, and note that you can't keen a greathammer, since it's bludgeoning. Gotta get Improved Critical for it, which is more expensive to a character.

Impact from the MIC, Keen for Bludgeons.

Epinephrine
2009-07-18, 11:00 AM
I agree that 19-20/x4 is broken, especially since the Greathammer is also in Races of Stone, as a x4, not a 19-20/x4. No other weapon gets a crit advantage as strong as the greathammer, not even the exotics - weapon that exceeds all others=unbalanced.

ex cathedra
2009-07-18, 11:11 AM
Broken? Right. 1d12 19-20/x4 is broken. That's less broken than multiple first and second level spells.

Not to mention kaorti falchions, etc. Really, the Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer and the Spiked Chain are what exotic weapons should be.

Mongoose87
2009-07-18, 11:13 AM
Broken? Right. 1d12 19-20/x4 is broken. That's less broken than multiple first and second level spells.

Not to mention kaorti falchions, etc. Really, the Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer and the Spiked Chain are what exotic weapons should be.

It's nice to actually be rewarded for spending the feat, as opposed to doing it for flavor.

Curmudgeon
2009-07-18, 11:14 AM
Broken? Right. 1d12 19-20/x4 is broken. That's less broken than multiple first and second level spells. But you can swing a weapon all day long. You can't do that with spells. Big difference.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-18, 11:15 AM
I agree that 19-20/x4 is broken, especially since the Greathammer is also in Races of Stone, as a x4, not a 19-20/x4. No other weapon gets a crit advantage as strong as the greathammer, not even the exotics - weapon that exceeds all others=unbalanced.And you have to spend a feat to wield it. Exotic weapons should be far better than their martial counterparts, and how often does someone take EWP? Duskblades take whip, chain trippers take chain, EWMs take whichever, fanbois take Bastard Swords and that's pretty much it. Most of the Exotic weapons are far too expensive for what you get(generally an extra point of damage or a Double weapon). The Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer(which was not reprinted or errata'd) is an exotic weapon designed to boost damage. Yes, it's the best option, but only for the purposes of damage. It's the Greatsword of Exotics, and just as limited.

ex cathedra
2009-07-18, 11:26 AM
But you can swing a weapon all day long. You can't do that with spells. Big difference.

In all fairness, proper use of certain spells means that you won't need to cast spells all day long (assuming proper amounts of encounters / day, of course. Skewing those changes everything. )

Past fifth level, a caster running out of spells is likely, as they say, "doing it wrong."

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-18, 01:26 PM
But you can swing a weapon all day long. You can't do that with spells. Big difference.

And one spell can stop Fighter who is wielding a Greathammer from ever even hitting the Wizard (Grease/Solid Fog, as appropriate for the level). So much for that EWP, and the Fighter's Greathammer can't do a damn thing to stop this from happening.


Some difference. The Greathammer can't end encounters without attack rolls. Grease/Solid Fog shuts down pretty much any encounter for their levels (Grease becomes obsolete against Flyers, but that's where Earthbind comes into play). Sucks when a 1st level spell can completely negate the need for an entire class.

Thurbane
2009-07-18, 06:27 PM
That's because every other exotic weapon except the spiked chain sucks. Most only offer a single increase of damage dice or a one step better critical over a martial weapon. As a whole, Exotic Weapon Proficiency is just not quite enough to spend a feat on, but the few gems always get called broken.
Well, that's one school of thought. Personally, I'd rather have not have one weapon that it out of line with everything else. YMMV

Oh, and note that you can't keen a greathammer, since it's bludgeoning. Gotta get Improved Critical for it, which is more expensive to a character.
Impact (MIC p.37) - works exactly like Keen, but for bludgeoning weapons.

SensFan
2009-07-18, 06:38 PM
Well, that's one school of thought. Personally, I'd rather have not have one weapon that it out of line with everything else. YMMV
The proper fix, then, is to make all the other Exotic weapons worth the feat. Not to remove the couple weapons that may make EWP a takeable feat.

Epinephrine
2009-07-18, 06:41 PM
The proper fix, then, is to make all the other Exotic weapons worth the feat. Not to remove the couple weapons that may make EWP a takeable feat.

Opinion noted. When a single source offers a single weapon that is out of line with everything else, my temptation certainly isn't to rebalance everything with the exception in mind.

Mr.Moron
2009-07-18, 06:49 PM
Opinion noted. When a single source offers a single weapon that is out of line with everything else, my temptation certainly isn't to rebalance everything with the exception in mind.

Except when "out of line with everything else" means usable instead of worthless pile, what in the world is gained by banning/toning it down for the sake of "Balance"? All that does is create more useless. Better to have at least one good option and a ton of bad ones, than only bad options.

The Glyphstone
2009-07-18, 06:49 PM
Holy excessive thread necromancy, Batman!

Irreverent Fool
2009-07-18, 09:15 PM
Want one worse? Pixie with the Major Titan Bloodline. Wields a Gargantuan Longspear. Cannot affect things outside her square. With the GARGANTUAN REACH WEAPON, she cannot affect things more than 5 ft away. Hell, the weapon itself qualifies as Gargantuan, and if wielded by an appropriately sized creature wouldn't affect anything within 20'.

They have to 'choke up' on it.

Just don't stand behind them.

obnoxious
sig

Flame of Anor
2009-07-18, 09:57 PM
Pixie with the Major Titan Bloodline.

o.O

That sounds...very uncomfortable... (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeadTiltinglyKinky)

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-20, 06:41 AM
The 19-20/x4 critical isn't necessarily broken, but it is out of line with every other exotic weapon that I can think of...

THIS is the point - any exotic weapon has an improvement compared to a martial:

- Incresed damage die: example: great falchion from sandstorm

- Increased crit range without lose damage die (example: compare longsword, scimitar and Elven Longblade)

- Increased Multiplier without lose damage dice (compare scythe and mercurial greatsword).

Now, this weapon is just too good compared to this pattern. There are similar strange weapons (like the blade in Underdark that is 19-20/x3, but the damage is d4. Same the orc shotput, that is at least a throwing weapon.

Now, the weapon we discuss about is NOT game breaking. It deals a little bit more damage, and will not ruin a campaign unless you cheese up your PC. Nevertheless, is CAMPAIGN breaking, because, as said, ll the other weapons disappear compared to it. IMHO, is a mistype, and another case of the poor editing of wotc books.


AAAND... I'm very, very tired of hearing that melee can have nice things only with cheese like this. If properly used, and maybe with the help of weapon categories, exotic and martial weapons can be great.

About ToB: IMHO, is a great book, and filled with things I like a lot and dislike a lot (I recently included it in my campaing). Is definitively worth taking, BTW.

BUT IMHO, is not so great as people keep saying, but just because everything else does not suck like people keep saying. I'm really, REALLY tired to hear that melees has few things to do, because:

- There is not only combat. And you can have a lot of fun crafting, handling an Aspery or a stonegliding beast or a Tarrasque, basing of your level.

- The same attack can be very different in any situation. Trip someone with a chain, with a chair, or jumping from a cliff to down a manticore is very different. Is very different entangle someone with a net an pulling him near the rogue, and pin a vywern with an harpoon, climb upon, and start to stab it. HOW THE FEY YOU PLAY YOU MELEERS?

-Even the sentence "I can only charge and full attack" is flawed, because in a full attack, or even a charge, you can do a lot of things. Obviously, if you specialize and specialize, your feats will be invested in few things, and some option will be left aside. But is not the game that is irredeemably broken (even if is full of flaws) BUT IT'S YOU THAT ARE A MORON.

- Yes, spellcasters are powerful but in my experience, most things people address are exaggerated or dued to unattentive DMs. At the worst, screw what's broken or translate in incantations most problematic spells (like 4th edition did). Don't fight cheese with cheese.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-07-20, 06:59 AM
- There is not only combat. And you can have a lot of fun crafting, handling an Aspery or a stonegliding beast or a Tarrasque, basing of your level.

All of which the Wizard and other classes can do better due to their abilities. The fighter is made for combat: it's even in his name. Fighter. So saying that he can do things outside his supposed area of expertise doesn't really help the argument that he suffers within his area of expertise.


- The same attack can be very different in any situation. Trip someone with a chain, with a chair, or jumping from a cliff to down a manticore is very different. Is very different entangle someone with a net an pulling him near the rogue, and pin a vywern with an harpoon, climb upon, and start to stab it. HOW THE FEY YOU PLAY YOU MELEERS?

Many people (not myself) use the rules as written...all of those, by the rules, come down to the same thing: a simple trip or a simple attack. There is no rule for "pinning a wyvern with a harpoon, climbing on it, and stabbing it." It's just a bunch of harpoon attacks.

However, with a good DM, I'll agree...a DM willing to hand out damage and attack bonuses and secondary effects for good fighting can help fix the fighter. Such DM are, unfortunately, rare. :smallfrown:


-Even the sentence "I can only charge and full attack" is flawed, because in a full attack, or even a charge, you can do a lot of things. Obviously, if you specialize and specialize, your feats will be invested in few things, and some option will be left aside. But is not the game that is irredeemably broken (even if is full of flaws) BUT IT'S YOU THAT ARE A MORON.

Well, firstly, you normally can't charge and full attack. It's not on the list of fighter options, or feats. Even if you can (through magic, prestige classes, or Tome of Battle), you're still limited to the following actions on a full attack: trip, disarm, sunder, attack. Three of those (the first three) are usually poor ideas if you're not specially built to handle those actions. Often you'd be a moron to try them (especially sunder). If you want to be effective in those actions, you have to spend valuable feats...your only resource for improvement.

Basically, without specializing, the fighter falls way behind. With specializing, he's a one-trick pony...and the Wizard still can normally duplicate that trick...or do something stronger.

And I'm not a fighter-hater. I actually appreciate the fighter class, and use it often. However, I do know that there's a power discrepancy and a versatility discrepancy between a decently optimized fighter and a decently optimized Wizard. It's just how the game goes. Whether or not it's a problem depends on your group's style and your DM's willingness to allow actions not explicitly stated in the rules (which does give the fighter more tricks...sometimes).


- Yes, spellcasters are powerful but in my experience, most things people address are exaggerated or dued to unattentive DMs. At the worst, screw what's broken or translate in incantations most problematic spells (like 4th edition did). Don't fight cheese with cheese.
[/spoiler]

Not in my experience (although experiences do vary). Polymorph, Forcecage, Celerity, Timestop, Gate, Shivering Touch, Venomfire, Divine Power, Persistent spells...all these and more are played exactly by the rules, and all can shatter games into tiny pieces. And if "homebrew the powerful stuff" is your solution, why not just homebrew the fighter up to par, or allow stuff like this weapon?

The Greathammer, in conclusion, may be a little stronger than some other weapons...but that seems to reason to not allow it. :smallbiggrin:

ex cathedra
2009-07-20, 07:16 AM
Honestly, I don't feel that the Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer is even moderately overpowered. It costs a feat. It will by no means obsolete most other weapons; From my experience, It isn't even a very popular weapon. People will still use greatswords, rapiers, scimitars, daggers, and even great clubs if they're running GMW and are feat-starved. It seems to me that people are making a big deal at a slight discrepancy in weapon abilities that really isn't problematic at all.

By comparison, you're using a feat that could be used on Power Attack, or Shock Trooper, and so on. Even as 19-20/x4, there really aren't a lot of situations where it's so much better than a greatsword to the point where it's worthy of a feat.

Killer Angel
2009-07-20, 07:46 AM
Holy excessive thread necromancy, Batman!

Well, Quick Comment's "new" post is dated 07-17, while Olo's dated 06-06.
It stinks dead, but technically, for a couple of days, it has not surpassed the one-month-and-an-half limit... but I'm no Mod :smallsmile:.

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-20, 08:07 AM
Many people (not myself) use the rules as written...all of those, by the rules, down to the same thing: a simple trip or a simple attack. There is no rule for "pinning a wyvern with a harpoon, climbing on it, and stabbing it." It's just a bunch of harpoon attacks.

Rules serve to describe the world and the actions of creatures. And this would be throw the harpoon and climb in the subsequent round. Maybe from a cliff, and the combat shoud end middle air. Doesn't seem to me a bunch of harpoon attack. Weapons need LESS rules than spells, because with spells there is more risk to "pun you die" "no I don't" "yes you do".



However, with a good DM, I'll agree...a DM willing to hand out damage and attack bonuses and secondary effects for good fighting can help fix the fighter. Such DM are, unfortunately, rare. :smallfrown:


Again, we cannot be slaves of the rules. Rules must serve us. And describe any action a player should accomplish. I doubt that limit ourselves is really "follow the rules as written".



Well, firstly, you normally can't charge and full attack. It's not on the list of fighter options, or feats. Even if you can (through magic, prestige classes, or Tome of Battle), you're still limited to the following actions on a full attack: trip, disarm, sunder, attack. Three of those (the first three) are usually poor ideas if you're not specially built to handle those actions. Often you'd be a moron to try them (especially sunder). If you want to be effective in those actions, you have to spend valuable feats...your only resource for improvement.

I know that normally you can charge OR full attack. I meant that people generally say that these are the only things you can do. And if you are a moron to try them..

You are a moron if you disarm in a round 7 royal guard and intimidate them "I want to talk with the king!"
You are a moron if you sunder the sack of an artificer? guess what could be there. Or you could sunder the skirt of a lady in a swashbuckling setting.



Basically, without specializing, the fighter falls way behind. With specializing, he's a one-trick pony...and the Wizard still can normally duplicate that trick...or do something stronger.

Assuming he as the spell, and there are not problems in casting. That melee should have more options and caster should cast with more difficulty or less cheese - well this is a fact, IMHO, I MUST agree with you about this.



And I'm not a fighter-hater. I actually appreciate the fighter class, and use it often. However, I do know that there's a power discrepancy and a versatility discrepancy between a decently optimized fighter and a decently optimized Wizard. It's just how the game goes. Whether or not it's a problem depends on your group's style and your DM's willingness to allow actions not explicitly stated in the rules (which does give the fighter more tricks...sometimes).


Se above



Not in my experience (although experiences do vary). Polymorph, Forcecage, Celerity, Timestop, Gate, Shivering Touch, Venomfire, Divine Power, Persistent spells...all these and more are played exactly by the rules, and all can shatter games into tiny pieces. And if "homebrew the powerful stuff" is your solution, why not just homebrew the fighter up to par, or allow stuff like this weapon?


Incantation are not homebrew. Are SRD. In different campaing setting, spells and classes can appear and disappear, see Oriental Adventures, one of the 3.x books with the best mindset ever written




The Greathammer, in conclusion, may be a little stronger than some other weapons...but that seems to reason to not allow it. :smallbiggrin:

Partially agree, we can say that until is fun, it's ok.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-20, 11:49 AM
THIS is the point - any exotic weapon has an improvement compared to a martial:

- Incresed damage die: example: great falchion from sandstorm

- Increased crit range without lose damage die (example: compare longsword, scimitar and Elven Longblade)

- Increased Multiplier without lose damage dice (compare scythe and mercurial greatsword).

Now, this weapon is just too good compared to this pattern. There are similar strange weapons (like the blade in Underdark that is 19-20/x3, but the damage is d4. Same the orc shotput, that is at least a throwing weapon.

Now, the weapon we discuss about is NOT game breaking. It deals a little bit more damage, and will not ruin a campaign unless you cheese up your PC. Nevertheless, is CAMPAIGN breaking, because, as said, ll the other weapons disappear compared to it. IMHO, is a mistype, and another case of the poor editing of wotc books.You're spending a feat. Most characters don't have them to spare. A Figter might be able to afford it, or a Barb with a Fighter-dip, but there are a lot of good feats out there. EWP:GHMGH is not worth the sacrifice of Intimidating Rage or Leap Attack.

Most Exotic weapons suck. No one takes any of them except Spiked Chain or a couple others unless you have a racial/class ability to abuse it. Saying the weapon is better than other Exotics and therefore unbalanced is like saying the Binder is better than the rest of ToM and needs to be banned. Focus on the broken, not on something that's one of the few wothwhile things in it's category.

AstralFire
2009-07-20, 12:11 PM
You're spending a feat. Most characters don't have them to spare. A Figter might be able to afford it, or a Barb with a Fighter-dip, but there are a lot of good feats out there. EWP:GHMGH is not worth the sacrifice of Intimidating Rage or Leap Attack.

Most Exotic weapons suck. No one takes any of them except Spiked Chain or a couple others unless you have a racial/class ability to abuse it. Saying the weapon is better than other Exotics and therefore unbalanced is like saying the Binder is better than the rest of ToM and needs to be banned. Focus on the broken, not on something that's one of the few wothwhile things in it's category.

Were I looking with an eye to improve it, I would:
- Make all exotic reach weapons function as the Spiked Chain.
- Make the Short Haft feat do the same.
- Nerf this hammer
- Offer EWP or one of a handful of other weak core feats at level 3 for a Fighter.

While this weapon is not broken, a solution should be more comprehensive than making a Spiked Chain 2.0, where it becomes the only logical choice.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-20, 12:22 PM
Were I looking with an eye to improve it, I would:
- Make all exotic reach weapons function as the Spiked Chain.
- Make the Short Haft feat do the same.
- Nerf this hammer
- Offer EWP or one of a handful of other weak core feats at level 3 for a Fighter.

While this weapon is not broken, a solution should be more comprehensive than making a Spiked Chain 2.0, where it becomes the only logical choice.I don't get why, in the above situation(which I otherwise approve of wholeheartedly) the hammer needs nerfing. It's an expanded threat range with a good multiplier, yes, but best case, you spend 2 feats for 17-20/x4, meaning something that applies less than 20% of the time. It's great, but doesn't seem out of line with what an Exotic weapon should be(cool, unique abilities that are maybe worth a feat to certain builds).

AstralFire
2009-07-20, 12:57 PM
It's the way an exotic weapon should be, you're right. I just feel like it's an easier fix to make EWP more easily obtainable for Fighters and standardize EWP benefits than it is to make more Exotic Weapons worthy of a standard feat, and I don't like leaving one significantly better than many of the other (aesthetically) popular ones.

Kyeudo
2009-07-20, 01:48 PM
Again, we cannot be slaves of the rules. Rules must serve us. And describe any action a player should accomplish. I doubt that limit ourselves is really "follow the rules as written".


You are right that the rules don't need to be the limit. However, this is the internet. Here, we have only one thing in common when it comes to the rules of the game, and that is the RAW. When discussing the power of a class, that's what we can go by because that's what everyone has access to.

If Fighters are stronger in your games because the DM allows them to do things by the RAW would be horrible (your harpoon example would provoke at least two attacks of oppourtunity and waste at least half an action) then that's great for you. The rest of us have to see if we can squeeze any use out of the Fighter other than a 2 level dip for some extra feats.



I know that normally you can charge OR full attack. I meant that people generally say that these are the only things you can do. And if you are a moron to try them..


Actualy, by the RAW you are a moron to try anything else unless you specialize in it. Charging and Full Attacking are something that a fighter can do well very easily. Tripping and Bull Rushing are best left to specialists. Grappling is best left to casters (like druids). Overruning is best left to idiots.

Trying to Bull Rush or Trip without the right setup gets you knocked around, tripped yourself, or killed.



You are a moron if you disarm in a round 7 royal guard and intimidate them "I want to talk with the king!"


Yes, you are, because even if you are successful in disarming 7 people without getting killed, you'll end up ticking off the king and getting yourself killed if your DM has any sense of realism.



You are a moron if you sunder the sack of an artificer? guess what could be there. Or you could sunder the skirt of a lady in a swashbuckling setting.


Congradulations, you have just smashed all the loot that you could have gotten and ticked off the noblewoman. Now you have your party mad at you.

Sundering sucks as a PC because anything you sunder you can't use or sell. Further, there are alot of things you can't sunder, like the monster's claws or a magic weapon with a higher bonus than your own weapon. Lastly, you have to give up your chance to actually hurt the opponent you are facing for the round.



Assuming he as the spell, and there are not problems in casting. That melee should have more options and caster should cast with more difficulty or less cheese - well this is a fact, IMHO, I MUST agree with you about this.


The Wizard has a spell to mess up the Fighter. Always. It's what most of the good arcane spells do. Grease, Glitterdust, Web, Etc.

Further, there are too many ways to ensure safe casting. You can auto-make the Concentration check to combat cast by mid level, you can take a 5 ft step back, and then there are the countless battlefield control and mobility spells that can allow you to either keep the fighter on the other side of the room or be casting from somewhere on the cieling.



Incantation are not homebrew. Are SRD. In different campaing setting, spells and classes can appear and disappear, see Oriental Adventures, one of the 3.x books with the best mindset ever written


And Fighters lack the skills to actualy use Incantations. Incantations are actually easist to use for casters, because Fighters have crap for class skills and skill points.

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-21, 02:35 AM
You are right that the rules don't need to be the limit. However, this is the internet. Here, we have only one thing in common when it comes to the rules of the game, and that is the RAW. When discussing the power of a class, that's what we can go by because that's what everyone has access to.

This is without a doubt true, but we don't agree about RAW. If there are rules to charge, to trip and to jump, you mix them (and other) to describe what happens. I don't see any homebrew here.



If Fighters are stronger in your games because the DM allows them to do things by the RAW would be horrible (your harpoon example would provoke at least two attacks of oppourtunity and waste at least half an action) then that's great for you.


In the example above, the monster took away the princess. Mario the fighter jumps and throws the harpoon, then climb, pulled by the wyvern. Yes, he will took AOOs, but are there for this. And if the wizard is flying around and will orb the monster, good, because, once again, Mario "tanked" an monster, this time in a very particular fashion.



Actualy, by the RAW you are a moron to try anything else unless you specialize in it. Charging and Full Attacking are something that a fighter can do well very easily. Tripping and Bull Rushing are best left to specialists.
Grappling is best left to casters (like druids). Overruning is best left to idiots.

Trying to Bull Rush or Trip without the right setup gets you knocked around, tripped yourself, or killed.

I depends from the size and the amount of monsters, the terrain, and what caster threw around. Even if some of your points are valid (see the grapple-druid, of course) IMHO you generalize too much here, or assume the classic 4 payers vs 1 monster, that is WRONG.



Yes, you are, because even if you are successful in disarming 7 people without getting killed, you'll end up ticking off the king and getting yourself killed if your DM has any sense of realism.


If you disarmed 7 people in 6 seconds, you are probably one of the best swordman of the reign, so i guess the king should at least be curious about what you have to say.



Congradulations, you have just smashed all the loot that you could have gotten and ticked off the noblewoman. Now you have your party mad at you.


The scene above was about a swashbuckling situation, something like a "courtship" between blade users. Why you people think everything about kill and loot? BOring..



Sundering sucks as a PC because anything you sunder you can't use or sell. Further, there are alot of things you can't sunder, like the monster's claws or a magic weapon with a higher bonus than your own weapon. Lastly, you have to give up your chance to actually hurt the opponent you are facing for the round.


Smashing something in you face and intimidate you is quite cool. And Sundering Cleave, part of a tactical feat great for chargers, is there for this. The Sunder Sucks is just another meme.




The Wizard has a spell to mess up the Fighter. Always. It's what most of the good arcane spells do. Grease, Glitterdust, Web, Etc.

The wizard has a lot of good spell to be worthy to be defended by the fighter at low levels, to do great things at higher, and to enhance the whole party always. Please stop to consider this game PvP.



Further, there are too many ways to ensure safe casting. You can auto-make the Concentration check to combat cast by mid level, you can take a 5 ft step back, and then there are the countless battlefield control and mobility spells that can allow you to either keep the fighter on the other side of the room or be casting from somewhere on the cieling.


You are right here. This is a thing that I always say: I like powerful spellcasting, but some spells give too much and you have few or no drawbacks, and is too easy to cast them anyway (consider that in my campaing I use taint and other things to balance in some istances spellcasting, this is why I talked about OAdv).



And Fighters lack the skills to actualy use Incantations. Incantations are actually easist to use for casters, because Fighters have crap for class skills and skill points.

Yeah, actually what I don't like of fighters is their skill selection, not their class features (even if they could have something like 3 times the feats, and be far more fun withou be broken).

But you misinterpreted me: I was talking about a solution "a la 4th edition": if you just cannot face powerful spell, drop them and substitute with incantation when possible. There are rules to make it. I didn't intend to bring incantation to non spellcaster (as 4h edition did, and I don't like it in my standard campaign).

Roderick_BR
2009-07-21, 06:50 AM
If you think the high crit is overpowered, remember that a Minotaur greathammer has no listed price. That might be an oversight, but it might also mean that only a specific type of monster drops it. There's your mitigating factor.

According to the DMG, no normal weapon (including exotic) can have move than x2 critical modifier with a critical threat range bigger than 1 (20-19, for example) as it's base stats (before applying special materials, spells, and wielder's feats). Only firearms can have those. Maybe the minotaur had improved critical, and someone added it to the hammer by mistake?

The Goliath's Greathammer is a two-handed exotic weapon, with damage 2d6 (3d6 for a large one), critical 20/x4, and +2 to sundering rolls.
An alternative you could try to see how it turns out is make a hammer like that with a 19-20/x3 base critical.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-21, 11:57 AM
The Goliath's Greathammer is a two-handed exotic weapon, with damage 2d6 (3d6 for a large one), critical 20/x4, and +2 to sundering rolls.
An alternative you could try to see how it turns out is make a hammer like that with a 19-20/x3 base critical.Who would take that? That is in no way worth a feat, and in fact is barely better than a Greataxe. As-is, GHMGH is sometimes useful, but not broken or even OP. Why change that?

Kyeudo
2009-07-21, 12:57 PM
In the example above, the monster took away the princess. Mario the fighter jumps and throws the harpoon, then climb, pulled by the wyvern. Yes, he will took AOOs, but are there for this. And if the wizard is flying around and will orb the monster, good, because, once again, Mario "tanked" an monster, this time in a very particular fashion.


In other words, he took damage he didn't have to take while the wizard got the actual job done. What was the fighter going to do after he killed the monster? Save the princess from falling with a harpoon to the back?



I depends from the size and the amount of monsters, the terrain, and what caster threw around. Even if some of your points are valid (see the grapple-druid, of course) IMHO you generalize too much here, or assume the classic 4 payers vs 1 monster, that is WRONG.


The Fighter does best in the classic 4 players vs 1 monster set up. When dealing with meaningful numbers, he cannot even threaten all of them, but the Wizard and Cleric still can.



If you disarmed 7 people in 6 seconds, you are probably one of the best swordman of the reign, so i guess the king should at least be curious about what you have to say.


If you disarmed 7 people in 6 seconds, you are cheating. A well built fighter won't get enough attacks to make that many disarm attempts.



The scene above was about a swashbuckling situation, something like a "courtship" between blade users. Why you people think everything about kill and loot? BOring..


In other words, it was a roleplay situation with little real danger. Leave the dice rolls out of it and just play it out. No need to bring BAB into a social situation.



Smashing something in you face and intimidate you is quite cool. And Sundering Cleave, part of a tactical feat great for chargers, is there for this. The Sunder Sucks is just another meme.


Did you miss all of the downsides to sunder? Like the large number of things you can't sunder? The loss of loot? The loss of damage?

"Cool" doesn't make up for "mechanically stupid".


I'm glad we agree about the rest. In the end, it takes a DM sorting things out to make the rules work for everyone.

Thurbane
2009-07-21, 10:09 PM
Who would take that? That is in no way worth a feat, and in fact is barely better than a Greataxe. As-is, GHMGH is sometimes useful, but not broken or even OP. Why change that?
I think the issue that some people have with this is that it is out of line with other exotic weapons. The general uselessness of exotic weapons is a seperate issue.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-21, 10:21 PM
I think the issue that some people have with this is that it is out of line with other exotic weapons. The general uselessness of exotic weapons is a seperate issue.The Quicken Truespeach feat is better than any of the other options for Truenamers, nerf it!

The power compared to others of it's class isn't important. It's overall power in the context of the game that matters. The GHMGH isn't going to be a sizeable contribution to overall character power as-is, compared to a Greatsword. It's good, it's a boost, but it's a smaller boost than you could get with other feats for a martial character. There are certain builds for which it's a good investment, but that's desirable of any feat. Nerfing it into uselessness because most other exotic weapons suck is not good for balance.

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-21, 10:29 PM
I think the issue that some people have with this is that it is out of line with other exotic weapons. The general uselessness of exotic weapons is a seperate issue.

That's because the bar was set too low for Exotic weapons. Whenever one of them steps above the bar, it is deemed "broken". The Spiked Chain is considered the most powerful Exotic weapon there is, and most people don't realize that it is actually overpowered by comparison to virtually every other weapon in existence (same to the Kurasari-Gama, though it loses Power Attack options).

The Greathammer in the MM is actually less powerful than the Spiked Chain, but more powerful than every other Exotic option because the rest were nerfed by the Devs because they didn't even understand their own system. This is a common problem when you have a group of people working on a project: if they don't communicate their ideas properly, things end up all over the chart.

For comparison, the Druid was given a more powerful animal companion than the Ranger because the Devs thought the Druid was the weaker class. In this instance allowing the 19-20, x4 version of the Greathammer isn't going to make the Spiked Chain more powerful, it will just give Fighters an option that's not strictly inferior to the Spiked Chain.


FOR SOME UNKNOWN REASON, PEOPLE ARE AGAINST THAT LAST SENTENCE.

Thurbane
2009-07-21, 10:34 PM
I think I might have explained my point badly. I'm not saying that anything better than the standard exotic weapons is broken, I am saying that having one item that is out of line with others in it's class is a separate issue as to whether it is overpowered or not.

For the record, I tend to agree that the vast majority of exotic weapons are most definitely not worth spending a feat on.

Mr.Moron
2009-07-21, 10:39 PM
I think I might have explained my point badly. I'm not saying that anything better than the standard exotic weapons is broken, I am saying that having one item that is out of line with others in it's class is a separate issue as to whether it is overpowered or not.

For the record, I tend to agree that the vast majority of exotic weapons are most definitely not worth spending a feat on.

This strikes to me as a bit of a strange approach.


Suppose we wanted to buy some muffins and there was only one bakery in the whole universe. Every time we go to that bakery the baker has let his cat mittens use the muffin tins as a little box. We don't why he lets Mittens do this he just does. So not wanting a mouth full of fresh-step and cat [bleep] we go without muffins. The situation is disappointing but sadly, when the only thing available is kitty-litter muffins there isn't much we can do about it.

One day we make our usual trip to the bakery when: Surprise! Non-Kitty Litter Muffins! It's a miracle! This particular line of thinking seems to be like telling the baker "Oh no! Sir this just won't do. These muffins should be covered in sand and poo like the rest of them! Please, take them to the back and let Mittens go to town"

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-21, 10:43 PM
This strikes to me as a bit of a strange approach.

It seems to me it's like if there was only bakery around, and we really wanted some muffins. However every time we go to that bakery, the baker has for some... odd reason decided decided to his cat to use the muffin tins as a littler box. Not wanting a mouth full of fresh-step and cat [bleep] we sadly, go without muffins. Then one day we go and to our surprise Fresh, non-kitty-litter muffins! It's a miracle! Finally our muffin prayers have been answered! Then going... "Oh, well this is clearly very wrong. These muffins should be covered in sand and poo like the rest of 'em. Sir, take to these to the back and have mittens go nuts"

Exotic weapons may be broken in a bad way, but the grammar in the above quote is worse.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-21, 10:52 PM
From the "Exotic Weapons that are Really Worth it (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=796494)" thread by Wobberjacky, rearranged by me for clarity:Spiked chain: Most of us know how obvious this is. Any sort of search for the word “chain” and maybe “fighter” on this board will turn up numerous builds, a lot of them very nasty.

Kusari-gama (DMG): A spiked chain that you can wield in one hand! Okay, okay, you can’t Power Attack with it, but still, this is a solid weapon. All the other goodies of the spiked chain wrapped in a cute little package called “light weapon”. Two-weapon Fighting with these can be barrels of fun.

Sharktooth staff (SS): This one’s infamous with my main group, and for good reason. Combine the damage dice of a greatsword with the crit multiplier of a greataxe, and you have a decent weapon. However, you also get to make a free grapple attempt at any Small or Medium enemy every time you hit them, and then deal free weapon damage in subsequent rounds. The size restriction prevents huge abuse, but it is just as good as it sounds. Hell, it’s even cheaper and weighs less than a greatsword.

Harpoon (Frost): Interesting weapon. It can be lodged in an opponent if they fail a Reflex save, and deals the same damage when pulled out as it did going in. The returning enchantment could theoretically just cause it to do double damage, but that’s definitely a DM’s call. Raise the damage as much as possible, as the DC for the save is 10 + damage dealt.

Tigerskull club (Frost): Not overpowering, but probably worth a feat if you’ve got room and will make use of its unique combination of properties. A x4 multiplier, two types of damage, tripping and disarming abilities, and it’s one-handed. Anyone have any builds/tricks/combos or specific tactics with this?

Orc shotput (S&F): Yeah, no errata for this thing. A big, silly pile of numbers: 2d6 damage, 19-20/x3 threat, 10 ft range increment. You’ll want to be at least Medium size to use them, though.

Greathammer (MM4): Another goofy pile of numbers. 1d12 damage and 19-20/x4 threat (!?). And yes, I realize the minotaur’s stat block says just “x4”, blah, blah. Take that debate elsewhere.

Class feature abuses required:Bastard sword: Or perhaps more accurately, katana. An Iajutsu Master can Weapon Finesse a katana with only a 2 level dip. This and its cousin, the dwarven waraxe, are also probably the best use of the Exotic Weapon Master’s uncanny blow stunt. For a character with an abnormally high Str score, multiplying your modifier by a full 2 instead of 1.5 can start to get a little unreasonable at a brisk pace.

Dwarven waraxe: See above for use with Exotic Weapon Master. This one also has the very nice benefit of not requiring a feat if you’re a dwarf. And there’s certainly nothing wrong with a dwarf.Racial benefits:Dwarven urgosh: Again, free for a dwarf. Normally, I’d say double weapons aren’t worth the feat, but when it costs nothing, go ahead. Granted, one end has a smaller damage dice, which doesn’t give it the advantage of other double weapons, but having two types of damage is handy, most of your feats apply to both ends, and it can be set against a charge, which is in my opinion an underrated ability.

Elven lightblade (RotW): This little guy and it’s big brother, the thinblade, are just kukris and rapiers (respectively) with bigger damage dice, although the lightblade does piercing damage, not slashing. Normally, this would be a pass, but if you’re an elf, Improved Weapon Familiarity gets you proficiency in both. What’s better, your feats that name rapier (Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, etc) apply to both.

Elven thinblade (RotW): See elven lightblade.

Flind bar (MM3): These things are quite solid. They give you a free disarm attempt with a +2 bonus every time you threaten a critical hit. They are also one-handed and have nice numbers for being so at 2d4 damage with 19-20/x2 threat. And hey, if you’re ever a flind gnoll for whatever reason, they’re free!Totally broken:Crescent knife (Dr275): I don’t have the actual text of this or the braid blade, so I’m just going on what I’m told. This lets you make 2 attacks in place of every attack you would normally make. Silly.

Braid blade (Du120): These grant you an extra attack and are affixed to your hair instead of being wielded normally. The extra attacks given by wearing multiples seems to stack, and there seems to be no limit to the number you can wear. Need confirmation on what issue this appears in.IMHO not worth it:Jovar (PlHB): Although not as silly as the greathammer or shotput, this is also just a pile of numerals: 2d6 damage with an 18-20/x2 threat. Largest damage dice of any weapon with 18-20/x2? Anyone know of a bigger one? For style points, wield one as an evil character and graffiti the blade to warp the Celestial writing on it into something blasphemous.

Dragonsplit (MM4): This is the “other” x4 threat one-handed weapon. Unlike the tigerskull club, this does slashing damage, which qualifies it for things that the club can’t, and it counts as a light weapon for Two-weapon Fighting and Weapon Finesse. However, it has no tripping or disarming qualities.So about 7 that are worth it that a DM will let you use. In all 3.x. The entire thread had 17 exotic weapons that were worth mentioning, and some of those were only with class features that required an exotic weapon or situations where you got it for free. Now, among those 7, the GHMGH is balanced. Compared to, say, the Orc Double Axe, it isn't. But an Orc Double Axe is a waste of a feat. Why should a bunch of useless exotic weapons preclude the use of the good ones? Why would you weaken a weapon that's occasionally worth it because other weapons aren't? Fix the weak weapons, don't nerf the balanced ones.

Mr.Moron
2009-07-21, 10:57 PM
Exotic weapons may be broken in a bad way, but the grammar in the above quote is worse.

Very good point. I corrected it as much as I could. I'm very distracted right now. Sorry English that probably isn't the worst thing I'll be doing to you tonight.

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-21, 11:01 PM
Very good point. I corrected it as much as I could. I'm very distracted at this time. Sorry English Language; that probably isn't the worst thing I'll be doing to you tonight.

Fixed. For reference, it is proper English to treat the object's name as a proper noun when using personification. I though you were saying that English wasn't your primary language when I first read that post.

Mr.Moron
2009-07-21, 11:04 PM
Fixed. For reference, it is proper English to treat the object's name as a proper noun when using personification. I thought you were saying that English wasn't your primary language when I first read that post.

At any rate my inability to create a coherent post isn't exactly the topic in this thread. Let's move on eh?

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-21, 11:10 PM
At any rate my inability to create a coherent post isn't exactly the topic in this thread. Let's move on eh?

No problem. I have plenty of trouble with grammar/spelling myself at times. No harm, no foul, sorry if I came across as rude.

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-22, 05:56 AM
In other words, he took damage he didn't have to take while the wizard got the actual job done. What was the fighter going to do after he killed the monster? Save the princess from falling with a harpoon to the back?

If the monster bites the fighter climbing instead of flying in the direction of the wizard the fighter is not doing his job? I start to see the problem here.
And.. yes, can happen that the Wiz kills the monster, the princess falls, but the fighter can use a lasso to take are and activate a ring of feather fall. Why not? If the barbarian is caught, you can use a second harpoon :smallwink:



The Fighter does best in the classic 4 players vs 1 monster set up. When dealing with meaningful numbers, he cannot even threaten all of them, but the Wizard and Cleric still can.


Once my players were wandering in a frozen huge crevasse filled with undead. The encounter was a wraith played abusing of incorporeality, and a bunch of skeleton warriors, in a bluff in the side of the crevasse. The group killed the wraith, the fighter placed himself in a way to engage skeletons (a la Thermopylae).

Another example: Zentharim Soldier combos. Yeah, the range is shorter than spells. So?



If you disarmed 7 people in 6 seconds, you are cheating. A well built fighter won't get enough attacks to make that many disarm attempts.


So since TWF is not powerful as THF (true) THE EXAMPLE IS FLAWED. I'm sorry, but we could stop discuss here! You made interesting and vaild points, but, respectfully, this is not one of them.



In other words, it was a roleplay situation with little real danger. Leave the dice rolls out of it and just play it out. No need to bring BAB into a social situation.


Roleplaying and combat are GENERALLY the same thing. It's what you do in such encounter that makes it more roleplaying or not. And you could role that way because you fought and you fight that way.



Did you miss all of the downsides to sunder? Like the large number of things you can't sunder? The loss of loot? The loss of damage?


Respectfully, It's seems to me that you missed my argumentations above. There are ways to attack someone after you sunder his weapon. You shouldn't sunder Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Windseeker from the enemy fighter hands, because it's good for you. Nevertheless, Drach'nyen the Demonic Sword with 10e40 of ego, you should sunder it and then smash the face of the Blackguard wielding it.
There are creatures that can kill you with a wooden stick. Assuming that they power attack, you are likely to sunder their weapon. YOu want to loot a wooden stick? Are you so gold starved (well some dwarf could be :smallwink:).

And rmemeber you can sunder (and disarm) worn object. Used cleverly, can be great.

Feat of the Power Attack tier like sunder are in the tier of Charger Feats. So take sunder becomes (strangely) not suboptimal. No, It's better not use it always, but the times you use it well..



"Cool" doesn't make up for "mechanically stupid".


Mechanically stupid is a little bit too much. Not always available and so pushing you to use your cleverness.. I like it more.



I'm glad we agree about the rest.

I'm pointing out that IMHO some problems are overstimated, not that such problems don't exist, of course.

*bows*

Kyeudo
2009-07-22, 10:13 AM
Once my players were wandering in a frozen huge crevasse filled with undead. The encounter was a wraith played abusing of incorporeality, and a bunch of skeleton warriors, in a bluff in the side of the crevasse. The group killed the wraith, the fighter placed himself in a way to engage skeletons (a la Thermopylae).


In other words, terrain allowed the fighter to do his job, where his abilities alone wouldn't and further he dealt with only the weaker mooks in the fight while the rest of the party dealt with the real threat.



So since TWF is not powerful as THF (true) THE EXAMPLE IS FLAWED. I'm sorry, but we could stop discuss here! You made interesting and vaild points, but, respectfully, this is not one of them.


Alright, so you can, just barely, get the requisite seven attacks, but by that time you can beat ordinary human guardsmen by sneezing.



Roleplaying and combat are GENERALLY the same thing. It's what you do in such encounter that makes it more roleplaying or not. And you could role that way because you fought and you fight that way.


You can roleplay in combat, yes, but when the situation is purely social, attack rolls should play no part in it. Narrate what's going on instead of trying to talk through dice.



Respectfully, It's seems to me that you missed my argumentations above. There are ways to attack someone after you sunder his weapon.


Every attack you spend smashing loot is one you could have been using to smash the enemy.



You shouldn't sunder Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Windseeker from the enemy fighter hands, because it's good for you. Nevertheless, Drach'nyen the Demonic Sword with 10e40 of ego, you should sunder it and then smash the face of the Blackguard wielding it.


So, you invested a significant amount of character resources into a combat option that you don't intend to use every combat? Do you see the problem here?



There are creatures that can kill you with a wooden stick. Assuming that they power attack, you are likely to sunder their weapon. YOu want to loot a wooden stick? Are you so gold starved (well some dwarf could be :smallwink:).


I am unaware of any creature that has a wooden stick for standard equipment. Either they tear you to pieces with their claws or they wield magic weapons. One you can't sunder, the other you usually don't want to sunder.



And rmemeber you can sunder (and disarm) worn object. Used cleverly, can be great.


Used by the PCs, it reduces your treasure gain, putting you behind wealth by level.



Feat of the Power Attack tier like sunder are in the tier of Charger Feats. So take sunder becomes (strangely) not suboptimal. No, It's better not use it always, but the times you use it well..


Wait, so competing with feats that have been proven to give an excellent return in combat does not make Sunder an even worse option?

Epinephrine
2009-07-22, 11:25 AM
Every attack you spend smashing loot is one you could have been using to smash the enemy.

Smashing things can increase your chance of survival, or may help your other allies get their jobs done.

Smashing holy symbols, spell component pouches, the rod that will complete the doomsday ritual, etc.

Smashing an enemy's shield may drop their AC by enough to be worthwhile, or in the case of a tower shield, deny them the ability to take cover. Even with a normal heavy shield, giving all your subsequent attacks (and your allies' attacks) an effective +2 to hit can easily make up the damage you lost by taking a swing at his shield.

Mr. Bignasty has a reach weapon and combat reflexes, and your poor rogue delays rather than get skewered, yelling, "take out his weapon so I can get around him!" You oblige, making teamwork possible. Your rogue didn't take an AoO, and gets to flank the enemy and unleash some nastiness.

Enemy bow-guy is pinging your mage with readied actions to disrupt him. Smash his bow or disarm him with one hit, beat him up later.

Badguy with massive DR that you can't punch through is threatening your priest-type. Smash his weapon, now your priest isn't threatened, and casts an align weapon for you.

Granted, by RAW you lose a lot of gear by sundering, but Disarming is an option. Some DMs have modified the "break things" rules to put a level of destruction between "smashed to pieces" and "completely ok," allowing sunderers to render an item broken, but fixable. Or look at Pathfinder; the Make Whole spell can be used on broken magic items (at 0 hit points or less) and it restores the magic abilities of the item if your caster level is at least twice that of the item. Suddenly Sunder isn't so shabby. Obviously not everyone houserules stuff (though I expect the majority do), and I'm always happy to houserule things that make the game more fun and open up more options for players.

Demons_eye
2009-07-22, 11:33 AM
Wait, so competing with feats that have been proven to give an excellent return in combat does not make Sunder an even worse option?

Sunder is a combat option people only over look because they fear there loot will be destroyed. If fighting the warlord and hes the BBEG and has a big shiny weapon I would sunder it.

Mongoose87
2009-07-22, 11:36 AM
Sunder is a combat option people only over look because they fear there loot will be destroyed. If fighting the warlord and hes the BBEG and has a big shiny weapon I would sunder it.

But, what if he's only one BBEG, and there's a "sequel"? Your party loses that loot for the sequel, and BBEG loot is sure to be the Phatest of teh l00ts.

Demons_eye
2009-07-22, 11:41 AM
Would your PC care if at the time it saved the world?

Epinephrine
2009-07-22, 11:55 AM
Would your PC care if at the time it saved the world?

This is a very valid point - if the characters are roleplaying, they probably shouldn't be metagaming about treasure gain. Now, for some characters it would of course be totally within character to worry about loot, but for others, stopping the badguy is the important part, and if it's efficient and effective to smash his weapon they should be perfectly willing to do so.

And while I agree that a blow struck against a weapon could have been a swing at the enemy, there are indeed times that one might be more successful than the other - cases in which the enemy will likely be healed, when the enemy's AC is high but you can beat his attack roll, when his damage output is scary and you need to drop it, etc.

AstralFire
2009-07-22, 12:04 PM
Sunder's biggest issue is ultimately that attack rolls tend to far outstrip their AC by higher levels, meaning that it's often easier (and more generally applicable, for the large number of enemies that carry no weapons) to just hit them in the first place. This is compounded by the fact that Power Attack is the biggest source of damage, meaning that you have to be a Leap Attacker to really reliably sunder through an Adamantine or Glassteel magic weapon or armor. Then throw on that if your target has any good backup weapons, your entire action is not as effective as helping your party to hit the BBEG unless you all are sunderers. Essentially, it is an extremely situational feat, on par in difficulty of use with Stunning Fist.

I agree that people overplay the "but this could be my stuff after he dies" effect.

I would make Sunder (along with Improved Toughness, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Disarm, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Exotic Weapon Proficiency and a few others) a choosable free Fighter bonus feat at levels 3, 7, 11, 15 and 19. Keep the list tight to the substandard but cool feats.

Kyeudo
2009-07-22, 12:43 PM
Smashing things can increase your chance of survival, or may help your other allies get their jobs done.

Smashing holy symbols, spell component pouches, the rod that will complete the doomsday ritual, etc.


While those are useful to destroy, there are so many ways to get around the need for a spell component pouch or a holy symbol (Eschew Materials, sanctified weapons and armor, etc.) that that is not always a given. Still, a point in Sunder's favor (if you happen to be fighting a spellcaster).



Smashing an enemy's shield may drop their AC by enough to be worthwhile, or in the case of a tower shield, deny them the ability to take cover. Even with a normal heavy shield, giving all your subsequent attacks (and your allies' attacks) an effective +2 to hit can easily make up the damage you lost by taking a swing at his shield.


How many monsters use a shield? How many just have a high natural armor bonus instead?



Mr. Bignasty has a reach weapon and combat reflexes, and your poor rogue delays rather than get skewered, yelling, "take out his weapon so I can get around him!" You oblige, making teamwork possible. Your rogue didn't take an AoO, and gets to flank the enemy and unleash some nastiness.


Or the rogue can invest in Tumble like a smart person, avoid the AoO, and flank him while you both stab him to death.



Enemy bow-guy is pinging your mage with readied actions to disrupt him. Smash his bow or disarm him with one hit, beat him up later.


Unless that bow is super-magiced up (in which case you don't want to destroy it because it's loot), the damage it is doing is going to be minimal. The Wizard casts Wind Wall, auto succeeds on his Concentration check due to his skill ranks and a good modifier, and can now ignore the archer for the rest of the fight. Alternatively, he casts Hold Person/Deep Slumber/Stinking Cloud and takes the archer out of the fight entirely.



Badguy with massive DR that you can't punch through is threatening your priest-type. Smash his weapon, now your priest isn't threatened, and casts an align weapon for you.


Badguys with massive DR usually don't have weapons. The few that do have weapons that you can't sunder during level appropriate challenges and even then still have claws or a slam attack to threaten with.

Add to that that the Cleric's AC is likely as high as the fighter's and can use an automade Concentration check to combat cast, and you've got another stupid use of sunder.



Granted, by RAW you lose a lot of gear by sundering, but Disarming is an option. Some DMs have modified the "break things" rules to put a level of destruction between "smashed to pieces" and "completely ok," allowing sunderers to render an item broken, but fixable. Or look at Pathfinder; the Make Whole spell can be used on broken magic items (at 0 hit points or less) and it restores the magic abilities of the item if your caster level is at least twice that of the item. Suddenly Sunder isn't so shabby. Obviously not everyone houserules stuff (though I expect the majority do), and I'm always happy to houserule things that make the game more fun and open up more options for players.

I never said Disarming was a bad option. Disarming is as situational as Sunder, but doesn't have the downside of robbing you of loot. It does have an opposed roll in there, which makes disarming giants and such very difficult, but if you are seeing lots of weapon-bearing opponents you aren't usually seeing a lot of large creatures. Building a character around it is still going to be suboptimal, but at least your party won't kill you for breaking all the loot.

Epinephrine
2009-07-22, 01:19 PM
How many monsters use a shield? How many just have a high natural armor bonus instead?

Some campaigns are much more focused on humanoids.


Or the rogue can invest in Tumble like a smart person, avoid the AoO, and flank him while you both stab him to death.

Right - the 3.5 tumble rules. We haven't used those in ages, so I forget about them. Before we went to Pathfinder's DC 15+BAB tumble, we were using DC 12+Reflex Save. Both make it much harder to avoid AoO, so positioning is harder to do (and hence, more valuable).

We also have much more penalising combat casting rules, and tougher concentration checks in general, so disrupting casters is easier. So in our games, you don't auto-make combat casting unless facing wimpy foes (DC scales with enemy BAB), and it's harder to cast when taking damage.

Obviously, with the multiple changes we've made, fighters have more options, and casters are more vulnerable. It certainly affects the game, and the value of actions like sunder.

Myrmex
2009-07-22, 01:28 PM
If the fighter in a party decides to pick up sunder, it's sort of a douche move on the DMs part to put all the enemies' wealth in their weapons.

I tend to run a lot of humanoid-shaped monsters with class levels, so usually the weapons aren't that great since they all have spells put on them. The magical ones tend to have names like "Deathdrinker, Blade of 1000 Woes," which was crafted in a soulforge and tempered with the blood of innocents. Not the sort of thing Good parties want to keep/sell.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-22, 01:39 PM
If the fighter in a party decides to pick up sunder, it's sort of a douche move on the DMs part to put all the enemies' wealth in their weapons.

I tend to run a lot of humanoid-shaped monsters with class levels, so usually the weapons aren't that great since they all have spells put on them. The magical ones tend to have names like "Deathdrinker, Blade of 1000 Woes," which was crafted in a soulforge and tempered with the blood of innocents. Not the sort of thing Good parties want to keep/sell.The problem is that NPCs need the magical bling to even pose a challenge to the party. If the party fighter has built for AC, the NPC can't hit unless he's got a few +s on his sword. A Blinking Wizard is very protected unless the NPCs have Ghost Touch weapons. And any halfway competent enemy is going to have a backup or 3, so Sunder still isn't that great.

Myrmex
2009-07-22, 01:52 PM
The problem is that NPCs need the magical bling to even pose a challenge to the party.

Hardly. Optimizing NPCs to kill a party is extremely easy, especially with mixed CRs and a confined space (like a dungeon). A dozen CR 1/2 goblins aren't a threat, until they all use aid another in a mass grapple.


If the party fighter has built for AC, the NPC can't hit unless he's got a few +s on his sword. A Blinking Wizard is very protected unless the NPCs have Ghost Touch weapons. And any halfway competent enemy is going to have a backup or 3, so Sunder still isn't that great.

There are so many ways to get +hit on things with hands. Between White Raven Tactics, a couple low level clerics, aid another, flanking, charging, and size bonuses, every attack from monsters you want hitting should be hitting.

A hill giant with 3 cleric levels is CR 8.5, and has 8 feats. You can throw in a whole mess of CR 1 to CR 3 humanoids/giants/things with hands without pushing the EL up much.