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Eerie
2009-06-07, 12:18 AM
What I`m looking for is a game system where you don`t have general levels or XP points. Rather, you become better at things that you do. Basically, if you just cast fireball all day, you will eventually be very good at casting fireballs (range, precision, sustainability etc.), but still suck at everything else. The same about using weapons, crafting, talking...

Dhavaer
2009-06-07, 12:24 AM
The Elder Scrolls. I've never heard of a PnP game that works like that, though.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-06-07, 12:34 AM
Maybe World of Darkness, but you don't necessarily gain skills through use.

joeaverage
2009-06-07, 12:34 AM
The problem with that system is that it does in fact encourage casting fireballs all day. Every day.

You can't just play or you might get crushed with arrogant ease by monsters who assume you've trained combat skills and not lockpicking+bargaining skills. A DM can work around this but why use a system that breaks down so easily?

Saph
2009-06-07, 12:54 AM
Call of Cthullu.

When you use a skill during a session, you put a check mark next to it. At the end of the session, you make a roll for each skill; if successful, your skill goes up (this gets harder the higher your skill level).

Casting fireball over and over again is not an issue because you'd go insane long before you trained up all your magic skills.

- Saph

BobVosh
2009-06-07, 01:18 AM
Call of Cthullu.

When you use a skill during a session, you put a check mark next to it. At the end of the session, you make a roll for each skill; if successful, your skill goes up (this gets harder the higher your skill level).

Casting fireball over and over again is not an issue because you'd go insane long before you trained up all your magic skills.

- Saph

Yep.

Also I would say WW, assuming you use the training time rules.

Also factory, but you would have to be able to read Spanish. And know of a small RPG.

DarknessLord
2009-06-07, 01:28 AM
Burning Wheel/Mouseguard
That seems to be exactly the kind of advancement you are looking for.
But I may be mistaken.

Sinfire Titan
2009-06-07, 01:34 AM
The Elder Scrolls. I've never heard of a PnP game that works like that, though.

If you have the Oblivion Player's Guide from the game's devs, it's actually really easy to convert it into PnP. They go into deep detail of the character creation process, including stat modifiers and the whole nine yards. It just takes a little time.

The only problems would be magic items, spell creation, and enemies (one can be broken, the other can be complicated, and the last doesn't scale well even if you use large numbers of enemies).

joeaverage
2009-06-07, 01:49 AM
Call of Cthullu.

When you use a skill during a session, you put a check mark next to it. At the end of the session, you make a roll for each skill; if successful, your skill goes up (this gets harder the higher your skill level).

Casting fireball over and over again is not an issue because you'd go insane long before you trained up all your magic skills.

- Saph

Well, if it works exactly like you said you'll have the problem of having to spread out skill use instead of focusing it if you want to improve.

What can I say, I just like the simplicity of xp and levels :)

Kol Korran
2009-06-07, 04:35 AM
though not exactly what you're looking for, Shadowrun might also fit the bill. sure, you get Xp, but you use them to by skills and so on, and improve (again- the price gets higher the more skilled you want to be) GMs usually rule that you can only buy skills you used, so that might fit what you're aiming at.

Saph
2009-06-07, 05:17 AM
Well, if it works exactly like you said you'll have the problem of having to spread out skill use instead of focusing it if you want to improve.

True. It tends not to be a big deal in the typical CoC game because your character's chances of survival have very little to do with their stats.

But I'm the same as you, really. I like the simplicity of the XP and level system. There's a reason it's so popular; the "Ding!" of levelling up is very very satisfying for some reason. :)

- Saph

Hnefi
2009-06-07, 05:22 AM
Basic Roleplaying System, which is used in the venerable Swedish games Drakar och Demoner and Mutant. It's extremely skill-driven; everything you do, is based on a skill. Even spells; every spell is its own skill.

IMHO, it's a much simpler, flexible and more intuitive system than the abstract systems like DnD. It's also a lot more precise and, insofar such a thing is possible, realistic. Obvious downsides to the system includes longer combat turns (less streamlined combat system leads to about twice as many rolls) and different character advancement rates (it's much easier for a fighter to learn what he needs than it is for a mage).

Also, I'm not sure if there are any games written in English that use it; I know Call of Cthulhu uses a derivative of the same ruleset. CoC uses the single-XP equals improvement system though, which is different from BRPS; in BRPS, you gain one "XP" each time you use a skill successfully (to a maximum of 1/day) and improve once you reach a certain number which depends on what kind of skill it is and how high your current proficiency in the skill is.

Dixieboy
2009-06-07, 05:28 AM
Maybe World of Darkness, but you don't necessarily gain skills through use.

No, you place your XP in skillz, there is no "Level" though (In some of the systems there is something roughly equal though)

Aux-Ash
2009-06-07, 05:38 AM
The swedish roleplaying game Eon has a skill based system in which the only way to raise a skill is to use it (and use it very often). It also has a very wide range of skills and even combat in itself means using at least 2-4 skills per character.

Unfortunantely you'd be forced to learn swedish to use it since it's complete lack of a translation.

Eerie
2009-06-07, 07:03 AM
The problem with that system is that it does in fact encourage casting fireballs all day. Every day.

You can't just play or you might get crushed with arrogant ease by monsters who assume you've trained combat skills and not lockpicking+bargaining skills. A DM can work around this but why use a system that breaks down so easily?

It really shouldn`t encourage it in a good system. Extreme specialization should only get you so far. What If you meet monsters who are immune to fire? What if you fight in a forest? Underwater? Close Quarters, where you will burn yourself?

The reason I`m looking for a skill-based system is that is seems more realistic. A person who only casts fireballs all day SHOULD only become better at casting fireballs, and not somehow gain new spells every level.

At the same time, such system will allow better customized characters. For example, you should be able to become good at both fireballs and sword-fighting, if you train both long enough.

Eerie
2009-06-07, 07:07 AM
Obvious downsides to the system includes longer combat turns (less streamlined combat system leads to about twice as many rolls) and different character advancement rates (it's much easier for a fighter to learn what he needs than it is for a mage).

I`m not sure about it. In the real world, physical improvement take years. Look at sportsmen. So I think character advancement rates can be balanced.

Tyrrell
2009-06-07, 07:09 AM
Basic Roleplaying System, which is used in the venerable Swedish games Drakar och Demoner and Mutant. It's extremely skill-driven; everything you do, is based on a skill. Even spells; every spell is its own skill.

IMHO, it's a much simpler, flexible and more intuitive system than the abstract systems like DnD. It's also a lot more precise and, insofar such a thing is possible, realistic. Obvious downsides to the system includes longer combat turns (less streamlined combat system leads to about twice as many rolls) and different character advancement rates (it's much easier for a fighter to learn what he needs than it is for a mage).

Also, I'm not sure if there are any games written in English that use it;

BRP was written in English by yanks at Chaosium and it has been used lots of times in English. Here's a few links:

Well there is Basic Roll playing http://www.chaosium.com/article.php?story_id=246
and Runequest http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/home/series.php?qsSeries=39
and stormbringer (no longer in print but it is probably both available and a closer match to the Swedish games, being somewhat older (the older editions of Runequest and Elric are also good choices for this.) http://www.stormbringerrpg.com/

My favorite game is Ars Magica 5 which for the most part doesn't give significant xp for adventures. Instead if you want to learn something you need to crack a book, hire a tutor,or just start practicing until you get. XP is never assigned by the player from a pool but instead is always immediately applied to the relevant skill that was being studied (adventure xp is an exception but it still never goes into a pool for buying things). http://www.atlas-games.com/arm5/index.php

Another great game that fits your criteria is Riddle of Steel. In this game you can only advance a skill if you use the skill in conjunction with your "spiritual traits" (It's apparently out of print but I'd wager that you could still find a copy or two about)

Evilfeeds
2009-06-07, 07:11 AM
If memory serves, Cyberpunk or Cybergen has some sort of "if you use a skill in a particular way thats either useful to the plot or denotes training, you gain additional XP to be spent on raising that skill".

Its been a while, so I cant remember the specifics unfortunately.

jamroar
2009-06-07, 07:16 AM
What I`m looking for is a game system where you don`t have general levels or XP points. Rather, you become better at things that you do. Basically, if you just cast fireball all day, you will eventually be very good at casting fireballs (range, precision, sustainability etc.), but still suck at everything else. The same about using weapons, crafting, talking...

Chaosium's Basic Roleplaying, used in Call of Cthulhu, Runequest and somne other systems.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-07, 07:18 AM
BRP was mentioned. I don't know why people always talk about Call of Cthulhu, because the system was originally developed for RuneQuest, one of the big ol' RPGs. It's also used in Stormbringer, Elric!, and in a seriously modified form in Pendragon and Mongoose's RuneQuest (SRDs on three core books available for download for free from the Mongoose website).

In BRP, the basic idea is that you use a skill and you get a tick in it. After a week and some downtime, you get to roll against your ticked skills to improve them (the better the skill, the lower the chance of success here).

In MRQ, though, you don't get ticks (although it'd be the easiest thing in the world to re-institute them); instead, you get improvement points. Using one improvement point lets you roll against the skill to improve it (on a failure, you get a smaller improvement). You can also use these points to improve your ability scores.

The problem with RuneQuest etc. was always that you never get better at something you're bad at. Not only does getting at tick require succeeding, but obviously the person with the best skill is going to be the one making the roll. This leads to seriously over-specialized characters, who're usually no good at anything but combat, magic, and maybe (but often not) in athletic activities and stealth )because those are the ones everyone ends up having to use), aside from their own specialty skills.

MRQ does a great job at fixing this with the point system. Pendragon works very well, too, because in Pendragon the main advancement happens in the Winter Phase, during downtime - you get points to improve your skills with.

Skill-based systems are superior to class-and-level based systems, but skill-use -based advancement is inferior to improvement/experience point advancement of skills.

Mongoose's RuneQuest (http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/home/series.php?qsSeries=39). Just search for "SRD" and start downloading. The main rulebook, Companion, and Monsters have free SRDs there.

John Campbell
2009-06-07, 04:30 PM
MRQ does a great job at fixing this with the point system. Pendragon works very well, too, because in Pendragon the main advancement happens in the Winter Phase, during downtime - you get points to improve your skills with.

AFAICT (and correct me if I'm wrong; I haven't actually played the game because the always-plays-Paladins guy who was going to GM it bailed when he realized that none of the players were willing to play his conception of the perfect chivalrous knight... my unassimilated Saxon thegn was pretty representative of the PCs), it's impossible in Pendragon to ever gain any skill that isn't given to you as one of your initial skills in character generation. Use-improvement requires you to have and use the skill, and everywhere that you're just given points to improve skills with - even later in character generation - it specifies that you can only spend them in skills you have at least one point in already.


Skill-based systems are superior to class-and-level based systems, but skill-use -based advancement is inferior to improvement/experience point advancement of skills.

When I GM Shadowrun, I gain the main advantage of skill-use advancement without the drawbacks just by making the PCs justify where they're spending their Karma. If it's a skill they've been using, that's perfectly fine. If it's not, they may need to spend time and/or money on training to justify raising a skill.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-07, 04:57 PM
AFAICT (and correct me if I'm wrong; I haven't actually played the game because the always-plays-Paladins guy who was going to GM it bailed when he realized that none of the players were willing to play his conception of the perfect chivalrous knight... my unassimilated Saxon thegn was pretty representative of the PCs), it's impossible in Pendragon to ever gain any skill that isn't given to you as one of your initial skills in character generation. Use-improvement requires you to have and use the skill, and everywhere that you're just given points to improve skills with - even later in character generation - it specifies that you can only spend them in skills you have at least one point in already.

Now look what you've done - I had to get out my Pendragon book.

Page 39, character creation, part 4 - you don't get to add points to non-weapon skills that start at 0 for your culture at this stage (so most men don't get Industry, etc.). Same with part 5, previous experience. Same goes for the corresponding parts (7 and 8) for advanced character creation, on page 56.

However, that's all character generation, and it's there so that Picts don't start with Latin, etc. During play, the main sources of advancement aren't use-based experience ticks - you only have about one adventure per year to gain those. The main source are bonus points from glory, and training points during winter phase. Neither of these are limited in any way (that I can find, anyway, looking at pages 120 and 346). So after character creation, there are no limitations on skill improvement.

Note, though, that there's very few non-weapon skills you start with 0 in. Male Cymri have 0 in Chirurgery (a women's skill), Compose, Industry (sewing etc.), and Reading (in the 5th century). If you happen to be the son of a churchman or druid, you get both Chirurgery and Read at character creation.


When I GM Shadowrun, I gain the main advantage of skill-use advancement without the drawbacks just by making the PCs justify where they're spending their Karma. If it's a skill they've been using, that's perfectly fine. If it's not, they may need to spend time and/or money on training to justify raising a skill.

Yeah, this seems fairest to me. When we play MRQ, my PCs raise skills they're practicing anyway (often with a trainer), or using in daily life, or used in the adventure. Of course, the way the world works, that covers most of the skills imaginable - after all, all sorts of warfare and raiding involves stealth, magic, riding, and athletics as well as weapon skills, daily life involves all crafts and animal and plant skills, and so on. If one wants to learn the play the harp, it's easy enough and makes for about a 15-minute episode...

RebelRogue
2009-06-07, 05:49 PM
Drakar och Demoner
I've played this game a lot, and it's always been enjoyable. But yes, there's been quite a few moments where the magic-users just had to try to do weird stuff to get ticks, such as summoning butterflies or the martial types shifting between weapons and stuff like that. But it's ok, overall.

Also, Final Fantasy II used such a system.

Glimbur
2009-06-07, 07:14 PM
RISUS. At the end of the adventure, you roll your dice pool for each skill. If they all come up odds, you get another die! Hooray!

Incidentally, this is one of them new-fangled "free" RPG's. Google it up, it's rules light.

Doc Roc
2009-06-07, 07:20 PM
Shadowrun 4 is functionally skill&&gear centric.

Knaight
2009-06-07, 07:23 PM
I've seen this option used in Fudge before(and by seen used, I mean use almost exclusively). Its a free, skill based system. Pretty lightweight too. My advice would be to download it, then PM me about the "tally system", which is a house-rule that implements exactly what you want for skills. And attributes. Using the point buy rules included in the free version (I don't particularly like those though, I usually use five point fudge).

elliott20
2009-06-07, 07:38 PM
somebody mentioned burning wheel. the way that this system works is that you gain advancement by using the skill in a challenging situation. (challenging, of course, is adjusted according to your skill level)

so, to use a d20 example, wanting to advance a skill rank from 3-4, you might have to perform against 5 tasks with a DC 16, and 3 tasks at a DC 20.

DarknessLord
2009-06-07, 08:06 PM
somebody mentioned burning wheel. the way that this system works is that you gain advancement by using the skill in a challenging situation. (challenging, of course, is adjusted according to your skill level)

so, to use a d20 example, wanting to advance a skill rank from 3-4, you might have to perform against 5 tasks with a DC 16, and 3 tasks at a DC 20.

Aye, keep in mind that with most skills you don't have to succeed to count towards advancement, just attempt the test.
It also discourages bothering the GM for these skill checks, saying that it has to occur organically in play. ^.^

Devils_Advocate
2009-06-07, 08:20 PM
GURPS at least allows for advancing the skills you use while keeping other things about your character the same. And also by offscreen training, I think. But improving your character's stats isn't really a big part of the system.

Eerie
2009-06-08, 01:30 AM
I think a good idea would be rolling something like 1d100 or 1d1000 each time you use a skill. If you get 100 (or 1000) you level up in that skill. And maybe new skills opening before you. For example, once you are sufficiently good at doing a somersault, you can attempt doing a double somersault.

elliott20
2009-06-08, 02:30 AM
Aye, keep in mind that with most skills you don't have to succeed to count towards advancement, just attempt the test.
It also discourages bothering the GM for these skill checks, saying that it has to occur organically in play. ^.^
this only works though because Burning Wheel generally runs with a scene rationing mechanic, which means that there are actually a finite amount of actions, times, and scenes you can do stuff. That means if you don't spend your spotlight time working on advancing the plot, you will lose your chance to advance your character in other ways.

In an essentially structureless game like say, D&D, adopting to such a mechanic will have problems because there is nothing by the rules other than GM fiat that stops the player from sitting around attempting impossibly hard stunts. i.e. say we're doing this with the balance skill. A player could conceivably stand around and try to walk on water (an epic level skill use), fail miserably a hundred times, and end up climbing the ranks really quickly because he spends all of his time standing around racking up attempts.

hewhosaysfish
2009-06-08, 03:27 AM
In an essentially structureless game like say, D&D, adopting to such a mechanic will have problems because there is nothing by the rules other than GM fiat that stops the player from sitting around attempting impossibly hard stunts. i.e. say we're doing this with the balance skill. A player could conceivably stand around and try to walk on water (an epic level skill use), fail miserably a hundred times, and end up climbing the ranks really quickly because he spends all of his time standing around racking up attempts.
Today 06:30 AM


If the PCs have down-time in which the players can declare "I spend my down-time practicing my skills" then I see no problem with doing so.
Conversely, if the PCs don't have down-time right now then it's not DM fiat to declare that something happens to interrupt them while they're clarting around in the water.

Also, if the PC doesn't have enough ranks in Balance to ever suceed on the check to balance on water, then IMO the GM is well within their rights to declare that it's a Swim check they should be making instead. :smallsmile:

elliott20
2009-06-08, 03:36 AM
If the PCs have down-time in which the players can declare "I spend my down-time practicing my skills" then I see no problem with doing so.
Conversely, if the PCs don't have down-time right now then it's not DM fiat to declare that something happens to interrupt them while they're clarting around in the water.

Also, if the PC doesn't have enough ranks in Balance to ever suceed on the check to balance on water, then IMO the GM is well within their rights to declare that it's a Swim check they should be making instead. :smallsmile:
well, the trick here is to somehow learn to calibrate what kind of increase the player is entitled to during their down time. In essence, in a level based game or in games where you are given skill points at advancement and assign them as you go, this problem is merely a fluff thing. You say you're assigning points to such and such a place, and your declare that your character spends time training. Open and shut.

but in a model where characters learn by doing? the rate in which they learn by doing must be closely calibrated.

i.e. you can only climb one rank at a time, and you MUST succeed at the skill check to gain the rank. However, if you fail, you get a bonus for the subsequent skill check. This way, the player is encourage to challenge himself JUST enough to not get end up wasting their time.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-08, 03:37 AM
I think a good idea would be rolling something like 1d100 or 1d1000 each time you use a skill. If you get 100 (or 1000) you level up in that skill.

I only just noticed your picture is Snusmumriken.

That's way too slow a pace of advancement. In RuneQuest, you get a tick for using your skill (in a real situation; no climbing a random tree in a field for ticks in Climb). Skills are measured on a percentile scale (d100 equal to or under % to succeed). After downtime, you roll d100 over your skill (I think you add your skill category bonus, calculated from your attribute scores) to raise it. A 96-100 is always a success in this case IIRC. This way, the better you are the slower you improve. The pace is still pretty danged slow, especially because of the problems I mentioned before.

Another problem with RuneQuest was weapon-swapping. Basically, savvy players would use all their weapons in a fight (or at least in a fight during an adventure), in order to get ticks in the skills - and hey, why not? If they don't do it, the system punishes them and forces them to only use the weapon they did get a tick in. Over-specialization again. (That, and a general problem with many, but not all, skill-based games: skill at fighting and skill at using a weapon are separate things, and you should be improving both when you fight with a weapon.)


For example, once you are sufficiently good at doing a somersault, you can attempt doing a double somersault.

That would require way too extensive a skill tree to be sensible. Most games I know just have a skill like Acrobatics.

TheDarkOne
2009-06-08, 03:43 AM
Call of Cthullu.

When you use a skill during a session, you put a check mark next to it. At the end of the session, you make a roll for each skill; if successful, your skill goes up (this gets harder the higher your skill level).

Casting fireball over and over again is not an issue because you'd go insane long before you trained up all your magic skills.

- Saph

You have to use the skill successfully to get a check(also I think the rules might also stipulate that the success has to contribute to your plans some how). Also, as further explanation for everyone, to increase your skill at the end of the session you the roll you must make to increase your skill is actually a roll that would fail if you were trying to use that skill. Ie if you have 98% in a given skill, to increase it you must roll 99 or 100. So while you might get checks in your 98% skill all the time, it's unlikely that one of these checks will lead to a skill increase.

The system has an interesting rational. People who are really bad or really good at skills don't increase them very often. The people who are really bad know almost nothing about the skill, and it's hard for someone to teach them selves the basics of a skill. On the other hand, people who are really good have little to improve on, so it's hard to make these improvements. It's the people in between, that know the basics, but don't quite get everything, that can improve the most by experience.

You can of course increase skills in other ways, such as receiving instruction from someone.

Kurald Galain
2009-06-08, 07:19 AM
Call of Cthullu.

When you use a skill during a session, you put a check mark next to it. At the end of the session, you make a roll for each skill; if successful, your skill goes up (this gets harder the higher your skill level).
(nitpick) At the end of the session, you make a roll for each skill; if not successful, your skill goes up. Otherwise, improving a skill would become easier as your skill improves, which is the opposite of what the system wants.

On the one hand, this does encourage using every skill during every session even when there's no good reason to use that skill, because if you get more checkmarks you get more chances to improve. On the other hand, munchkinning like this is largely ineffective in Call of Ctulhu anyway.

As I recall, Ultima Online had a "improve skills by using" system, which also degraded skills that you were not using. It's probably a bit too complex to use on tabletop RPGs, though.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-08, 07:45 AM
As I recall, Ultima Online had a "improve skills by using" system, which also degraded skills that you were not using. It's probably a bit too complex to use on tabletop RPGs, though.

UO was probably the best example of how that can go wrong. It literally took a week or less (I think the quote was actually 4-5 days when I quit around '99 or '00) to pump yourself up to 7 GMs (you could have 700 points in skills, which were measured from 0.0 to 100.0). They tried to make it harder by making your skill growth slow down if you stayed in an area, but that just meant people did their AFK macro training on a ship set to sail at a point where you'd go around the world without hitting land.

Skills also didn't degrade through lack of use, but rather if you raised a skill and were at 700 total points, you'd lose points from another skill. You could "lock" skills to not degrade, to avoid a lot of pain with randomly losing points from skills.

Sebastrd
2009-06-08, 07:47 AM
What I`m looking for is a game system where you don`t have general levels or XP points. Rather, you become better at things that you do. Basically, if you just cast fireball all day, you will eventually be very good at casting fireballs (range, precision, sustainability etc.), but still suck at everything else. The same about using weapons, crafting, talking...

How complicated are you willing to get? I have such a system, designed by a friend, that is easily the most realistic system I've ever seen. However, each PC has roughly a dozen primary attributes, 30 secondary attributes, a dozen tertiary attributes, and more skills that you can shake a stick at (literally). A single swing in combat consists of a D30 roll for to-hit, a D30 roll for location, and a damage roll which is reduced by any armor, culminating in infliction of a minus dependent on the target's damage reduction.

It is an awesome, deadly, and unltimately fun system, but it's not for the faint of heart.

Halaster
2009-06-08, 07:59 AM
A similar system to what the OP was looking for is found in Pendragon. If you use a skill often, or have a special success, you get a check mark, then roll at the end of the year (one adventure = one year), whether you get a point in the skill. That is more likely for lower skill ratings. They also have a parallel training system, allowing you to train 1d6 low-rating skills or one high-rating skill of your choice.

Marc Miller's Traveller (T4 for short) also uses something like that. You do get XP, but you must spend them right after the adventure on skills you used during the story. Like in Pendragon, you roll, with higher chances to increase lower rated skills.

Harnmaster also had something like that, but the exact workings are lost to my memory right now.

lesser_minion
2009-06-08, 08:26 AM
I'd second looking at Ars Magica.

In order to learn things, you need to grab a book, find someone else who knows the ability, practice the ability or learn it through using it in an adventure. Or you can experiment on concentrated magical essence, but that can be a bit unpredictable.

The main thing, however, is that experience doesn't get chucked straight into a pool - you actually have to gain experience in a specific art or ability. The amount needed to improve an ability increases the better you are at the ability (and it becomes harder to find good sources for study).

Oh, and you actually can get better at casting a specific spell using the Spell Mastery rules.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-08, 08:43 AM
Oh yeah; Twilight 2013 uses the "get ticks in skill" system too. Once you get 3 ticks, your skill goes up. Once your skill goes up enough, you get another die. (The more dice you have, the more points you need for more.)

Hnefi
2009-06-08, 10:55 AM
In an essentially structureless game like say, D&D, adopting to such a mechanic will have problems because there is nothing by the rules other than GM fiat that stops the player from sitting around attempting impossibly hard stunts. i.e. say we're doing this with the balance skill. A player could conceivably stand around and try to walk on water (an epic level skill use), fail miserably a hundred times, and end up climbing the ranks really quickly because he spends all of his time standing around racking up attempts.
On the contrary, that's part of the system. In Drakar och Demoner, you could spend downtime practicing skills. Each week you spent with a trainer gave you 2d4 experience points in that skill and cost a certain amount; each week spent training alone gave you 1d4 experience points but cost you nothing. For each week of training, you rolled the attribute (strength, dexterity, etc) on a d20; if you failed, you got no skill points.

This produced a system where characters could specialize or diversify their skills however they pleased by studying. Extremely flexible, and very close to how it works in real life.

Eerie
2009-06-08, 01:13 PM
Another problem with RuneQuest was weapon-swapping. Basically, savvy players would use all their weapons in a fight (or at least in a fight during an adventure), in order to get ticks in the skills - and hey, why not?

I don`t think weapon-swapping should be possible. Or it should be punished. Think - how sane would it be to switch from a sword to an axe during a fight? You`d get killed while you are doing it. And even if you could during a break, why would you want carry so much weapons on yourself? They are heavy.


If they don't do it, the system punishes them and forces them to only use the weapon they did get a tick in. Over-specialization again. (That, and a general problem with many, but not all, skill-based games: skill at fighting and skill at using a weapon are separate things, and you should be improving both when you fight with a weapon.)

The way to deal with it, I think, is by using synergy. Some skills should advance other skills as well, perhaps just not at the same pace. Person who is very good at using a sword should be able to understand an axe better than one who never held a weapon.

But both will probably still be bad at archery.


That would require way too extensive a skill tree to be sensible. Most games I know just have a skill like Acrobatics.

Why not have an extensive skill tree? I mean, once you devised it, you just use it in every game. And real acrobats don`t just train "acrobatics", they train very specific stuff.

DarknessLord
2009-06-08, 01:19 PM
this only works though because Burning Wheel generally runs with a scene rationing mechanic, which means that there are actually a finite amount of actions, times, and scenes you can do stuff. That means if you don't spend your spotlight time working on advancing the plot, you will lose your chance to advance your character in other ways.

In an essentially structureless game like say, D&D, adopting to such a mechanic will have problems because there is nothing by the rules other than GM fiat that stops the player from sitting around attempting impossibly hard stunts. i.e. say we're doing this with the balance skill. A player could conceivably stand around and try to walk on water (an epic level skill use), fail miserably a hundred times, and end up climbing the ranks really quickly because he spends all of his time standing around racking up attempts.
Well, I don't think that the OP was asking about adapting the systems to DnD, but if that is what your quote was about I apologize for it.

And as for you example I think in order to import burning Wheel style skill advancement, we'd need to also import "Let it Ride" (which for those of you who don't know means that once you fail at something you can't try again until circumstances "legitimately and drastically" change.) at least for skill tests. As well as the rule that if it's not an appropriate check then it counts as practice. Heck the balancing on water attempts would be an excellent to say your character is trying to practice, and would say something about either the character or his or her mentor, if that was the goal of the exercise.

However, really, both systems have what works for them, and I really wouldn't import such a system into a class an level game myself. ^.^;

valadil
2009-06-08, 01:55 PM
The closest thing I've seen to this in the wild is a modification to WoD to add ticks to skills. Each tick is an experience point that can only be used to upgrade that skill. You still use experience as usual to level, but skills that your GM feels you have used significantly will be slightly cheaper as some points are already paid off.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-08, 02:07 PM
I don`t think weapon-swapping should be possible. Or it should be punished. Think - how sane would it be to switch from a sword to an axe during a fight? You`d get killed while you are doing it. And even if you could during a break, why would you want carry so much weapons on yourself? They are heavy.

Warriors switched weapons during combat all the time. After the initial lance charge on a horse, you switch to a sword. Once the press gets close enough, you switch to a shorter axe or mace. When dismounted, you may want to switch to a proper longsword, and you'll probably draw your dagger and use that during a fight against an armored opponent.

The problem is that the system requires that you do it all the time, because if you don't, some of your weapon skills will get left behind and become worthless.


The way to deal with it, I think, is by using synergy. Some skills should advance other skills as well, perhaps just not at the same pace. Person who is very good at using a sword should be able to understand an axe better than one who never held a weapon.

Too complicated. There's two ways I can think of: the first is having a general "fight" skill, with weapon specialties that give you a bonus to the fight skill. The specialties would be capped so that the fight skill would always be the greater factor (although the fight skill could be capped, too...).

The other way, seen in The Riddle of Steel, is to default combat skills off each other. If you can use a longsword, you can use a doppelhander and an arming sword, too; you can even use a poleaxe, but not as well. You can't get a skill above X by defaulting, and you can train skills up from the defaults rather than starting at 0.


But both will probably still be bad at archery.

Ranged combat needs to be separate too, yeah. In TROS, missile weapon skills don't default from melee skills.


Why not have an extensive skill tree? I mean, once you devised it, you just use it in every game. And real acrobats don`t just train "acrobatics", they train very specific stuff.

Big skills lists are cumbersome and can be very hard to play with. Broad, general skills, maybe with special abilities and disadvantages ("Can't Swim", "Poor Runner", etc.) for exceptions, are the way to go IMO.

elliott20
2009-06-08, 08:13 PM
Well, I don't think that the OP was asking about adapting the systems to DnD, but if that is what your quote was about I apologize for it.

And as for you example I think in order to import burning Wheel style skill advancement, we'd need to also import "Let it Ride" (which for those of you who don't know means that once you fail at something you can't try again until circumstances "legitimately and drastically" change.) at least for skill tests. As well as the rule that if it's not an appropriate check then it counts as practice. Heck the balancing on water attempts would be an excellent to say your character is trying to practice, and would say something about either the character or his or her mentor, if that was the goal of the exercise.

However, really, both systems have what works for them, and I really wouldn't import such a system into a class an level game myself. ^.^;

yeah, that's true. I completely forgot about the "let it ride" rule. I kind of figured it was just common sense and all that.

still, the OP's question I think has been answered a while back, I think. I wonder why he's looking for one.

Irreverent Fool
2009-06-08, 09:23 PM
If memory serves, Cyberpunk or Cybergen has some sort of "if you use a skill in a particular way thats either useful to the plot or denotes training, you gain additional XP to be spent on raising that skill".

Its been a while, so I cant remember the specifics unfortunately.

Yup. Cyberpunk 2020 2nd ed. has/had a skill-based system. Basically at the end of each session, your GM awards you 'improvement points' (IP) to skills you used effectively in the session as well as general IP that you may spend as you wish. The book has rather vague guidelines on how this is to be awarded, much in the tradition of the older pnp games, so it can vary immensely between groups. The IP are the only way that characters improve aside from installing cybernetics/buying new guns/etc.

I haven't kept up so I don't know if newer versions of Cyberpunk have changed this at all.

obnoxious
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