PDA

View Full Version : [4e] Aid Another



Colmarr
2009-06-07, 06:38 AM
Educate me:

My DM ruled tonight that Aid Another scales with level (ie. at level 5 the target AC for aid another is 12, not 10).

He justified this decision by using the scaling DCs table.

Is he right?

Oracle_Hunter
2009-06-07, 06:50 AM
He is wrong; I would go so far as to say very wrong.

Why? Because Aid Another, like a Heal check to stabilize, is a static check, designed to allow other characters to help each other even if they couldn't do anything on their own. Yes, this means a trained character automatically helps at level 10 (at the latest) but that is the point; it is a basic technique that your characters eventually master.

If he's going to scale Aid Another, he should also scale all Knowledge Checks, Heal Checks, Climb Checks, and so on. All of them have static DCs for very much the same reason.

Why did he decide to do this, anyhow? :smallconfused:

Colmarr
2009-06-07, 07:15 AM
Why did he decide to do this, anyhow? :smallconfused:

No idea. He's one of those DMs sometimes.

There are two ex-DMs playing in the campaign, and we both do our damnedest to just play along rather than cause a ruckus (to the extent that I deliberately haven't bought the DMG).

Oracle_Hunter
2009-06-07, 07:38 AM
No idea. He's one of those DMs sometimes.

There are two ex-DMs playing in the campaign, and we both do our damnedest to just play along rather than cause a ruckus (to the extent that I deliberately haven't bought the DMG).
Well, aside from making Aid Other worse (particularly in combat!) it shouldn't have much of an impact. Do point out the other static DCs and see if he'd like to change those as well - making the rope harder to climb as you level :smalltongue:

Honestly, I don't see that much use of Aid Another - it is an annoying quirk in a DM, though.

Mercenary Pen
2009-06-07, 07:55 AM
It might be specifically to make it a less attractive option in skill challenges, where it's possible to have just one member of the party making the skill checks, and everyone else just rolling aid another because they see no other way to contribute...

Maybe the intention here is not to make things more difficult for the sake of making them difficult, maybe its instead to try and keep the players thinking of new ways to do things, rather than just blindly aiding another until the person aided has a +6/+8 bonus to each of their checks.


I can't really give you any definite answers here, because I don't know your DM, I don't know your group... All I can do is make suggestions as to why this may have happened, and what the intended result may have been.

MartinHarper
2009-06-07, 08:00 AM
4e skill challenges are mostly broken as written (in different ways before and after errata), so a DM might want to alter aid another as part of an attempt to tame that madness.

I can also see an argument based on realism. Imagine that you are a commoner trying to climb a knotted rope (DC 5). I'm another commoner and I can maybe help you (aid another DC 10). Now imagine that you are an epic tier Rogue, trying to climb a sheer glass wall covered in the blood of your enemies (DC 30). If I'm still a commoner, I'm not going to be any help at all. This implies that the Aid Another DC should be higher for this task, and scaling the DC by level is a way of achieving this. A better way might be to set Aid Another DC = Task DC.

Colmarr
2009-06-07, 08:20 AM
It might be specifically to make it a less attractive option in skill challenges, where it's possible to have just one member of the party making the skill checks, and everyone else just rolling aid another because they see no other way to contribute...

I doubt it. It came up in the middle of a combat. There was no mention of skill challenges.

Mercenary Pen
2009-06-07, 08:50 AM
Question. You say this was an Aid Another in combat, was it the attack roll aid another or a skill/ability check aid another?

Nightson
2009-06-07, 11:31 AM
He probably thought "Oh a DC 10 check is too easy" without realizing that Aid Another is generally avoided because of the high opportunity cost.

Colmarr
2009-06-07, 07:41 PM
was it the attack roll aid another

Yes. Bonus text because "yes" is too short to be a valid post.

warrl
2009-06-07, 09:40 PM
I can also see an argument based on realism. Imagine that you are a commoner trying to climb a knotted rope (DC 5). I'm another commoner and I can maybe help you (aid another DC 10). Now imagine that you are an epic tier Rogue, trying to climb a sheer glass wall covered in the blood of your enemies (DC 30). If I'm still a commoner, I'm not going to be any help at all. This implies that the Aid Another DC should be higher for this task, and scaling the DC by level is a way of achieving this. A better way might be to set Aid Another DC = Task DC.

In that case, I have a counter-proposal:

The DC of assisting someone in a challenge should be the same as the assisted person's base score (what they have before THEY roll the dice), and this is cumulative for multiple assistants in a round. Or perhaps that value plus a constant.

If you're inept at something, it's pretty easy for an assistant - even a similarly inept assistant - to make you slightly less inept. Neither one of you can climb, your assistant forms his hands into a step and lifts you partway. Or goes down on all fours so you can use his shoulders and hips as a step. That's significant assistance relative to your basic lack of climbing skill.

On the other hand, this same "assistance" would actually impair a highly skilled climber by providing him less-solid footing for his initial jump onto the surface he's climbing. So he'd ignore it, or if that would be inconvenient, ask the "assistant" to move.

LEVEL isn't really relevant, other than by way of its effect on ability scores. We expect a high-level rogue to be better at climbing than a low-level rogue - and both of them to be better than a high-level mage who (for some reason) isn't using any sort of flight, levitation, teleportation, or buffing spell.