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Rin_Hunter
2009-06-07, 10:14 AM
Under the ability of Phylactery Transference, a Demilich may keep worn magic items near its Phylactery and it gains the abilities.

There's nothing in the update booklet or the SRD that says otherwise, so would you rule that it is possible for someone to wear the Phylactery (as a pendant or ring or such) and the Demilich gain access to that person's worn magic items?

I'm a little confused on this point because there is no clear answer that I can see.

Malacode
2009-06-07, 10:20 AM
I actually had this idea a while ago, but the DM said no. Then again, that DM sees me a dirty little muchkin and says no to -everything- I suggest, so YMMV. It's really up to the Dungeon Master, that's all. There's no explicit rule stating two creatures can't benefit from the one magic item.

Deth Muncher
2009-06-07, 10:31 AM
Under the ability of Phylactery Transference, a Demilich may keep worn magic items near its Phylactery and it gains the abilities.

There's nothing in the update booklet or the SRD that says otherwise, so would you rule that it is possible for someone to wear the Phylactery (as a pendant or ring or such) and the Demilich gain access to that person's worn magic items?

I'm a little confused on this point because there is no clear answer that I can see.

This seems like a devious plan for the Lich, IMHO. Have a stereotypical dungeon with your phylactery in it. Have it look suitably snazzy, and enchant it so that when it's worn it givel beneficial effects, as per most items. But what you're REALLY doing is sapping your opponent, so that you know what they're immune to because YOU'RE IMMUNE TOO. So one day, you realize "Huh. I'm immune to Fire now. Interesting." And then scry your phylactery, find out who has it, and then destroy them with not-fire.


Or, you know, some sort of other cool thing.

Dixieboy
2009-06-07, 11:27 AM
You risk one of them having a high knowledge check and then smashing it though, needing you to kill those pesky adventurers and refurnish your entire dungeon. :smallyuk:

Olo Demonsbane
2009-06-07, 11:30 AM
If you first polymorph it into something else, it keeps its magic and they have no chance of recognizing it with a Knowledge check...Right? I could be just making that up, but it makes sense to me.

Douglas
2009-06-07, 11:45 AM
The real risk is that someone will cast Identify on it. And, since you're disguising it as a useful magic item, it's almost guaranteed that someone will do that.

Flickerdart
2009-06-07, 11:48 AM
The real risk is that someone will cast Identify on it. And, since you're disguising it as a useful magic item, it's almost guaranteed that someone will do that.
Nystul's Magic Aura and similar spells can block that.

J.Gellert
2009-06-07, 12:03 PM
What if you put it in another magic item? For example, right under the plume of that snazzy new helmet...

Of course, when you do stuff like that, you take a risk; if the adventurer who picks it up is a total klutz and slips into the wrong chasm (say, rolls a 2 to balance near the caldera of mount doom?) then... bye-bye phylactery.

ZeroNumerous
2009-06-07, 12:58 PM
On Demiliches and Phylacteries: Honestly, does it really matter? You're an epic caster. Polymorph your phylactery into a Great Wyrm Force Dragon if you want.

Asheram
2009-06-07, 01:29 PM
Rather, polymorph it into a beautiful human female, make a mindswitch with a pesant girl, then keep it captive.

The good heroes can't kill her.

J.Gellert
2009-06-07, 01:55 PM
Actually, they might still kill her, and just for the bonus xp of roleplaying the angst and drama beforehand.

"I don't want to... but I have to!" *Tears*

Asheram
2009-06-07, 04:10 PM
Actually, they might still kill her, and just for the bonus xp of roleplaying the angst and drama beforehand.

"I don't want to... but I have to!" *Tears*

... You're proably right, they would... Bloody PC's!

Pie Guy
2009-06-07, 05:06 PM
You all have too tame groups. My group would just say "A human captive! It's in the dungeon, it must be evil! Kill it!"

Coidzor
2009-06-07, 05:54 PM
Or try to figure out if the lich experiences anything of what the phlactery-person is subjected to. That can get squicky.

...I kinda like the idea of a phylactery golem that the lich's spirit goes into and inhabits while its body is being rebuilt...

hmm, but where to begin with such a homebrew?

Chineselegolas
2009-06-07, 10:11 PM
So you find the demi-liches Phylactery and store it near a whole bunch of items that give penalties to undead and evil users...

jcsw
2009-06-07, 10:46 PM
So you find the demi-liches Phylactery and store it near a whole bunch of items that give penalties to undead and evil users...


Headbands, belts, rings, cloaks, and other wearable items kept in close association with the demilich’s phylactery transfer all their benefits to the demilich no matter how far apart the demilich and the phylactery are located. The standard limits on types of items utilized simultaneously still apply.

Pretty sure penalties don't count as benefits.

On a side note, I note how it doesn't have a limit per body slot. Wearing 9001 belts of battle anyone? EDIT: GAAAaaagh I'm really sleepy this morning. Disregard this paragraph.

Krrth
2009-06-08, 08:26 AM
As an aside, you can't use a magic item to make a phylactery.

ZeroNumerous
2009-06-08, 08:34 AM
As an aside, you can't use a magic item to make a phylactery.

A) We're discussing an epic caster. The rules stopped applying at level 21.
B) No where does it state that a phylactery must be made of any particular material.
C) I did mention the epic caster bit, right?

MickJay
2009-06-08, 09:07 AM
But can you make a phylactery into a (more) magic item?:smalltongue:

Krrth
2009-06-08, 09:07 AM
A) We're discussing an epic caster. The rules stopped applying at level 21.
B) No where does it state that a phylactery must be made of any particular material.
C) I did mention the epic caster bit, right?


Are we discussing an epic caster? Remember the level adjustments involved. +4 for becoming a lich, and another +6 (for a total of +10) for becoming a demi-lich.

Optimystik
2009-06-08, 10:11 AM
B) No where does it state that a phylactery must be made of any particular material.


But can you make a phylactery into a (more) magic item?:smalltongue:

Libris Mortis: "A lich's phylactery cannot be part of another magic item, nor may additional magic properties be added to it."

You can disguise it as something else (LM actually recommends Nystul's for this purpose) but it can't actually DO anything.

As for demiliches, their phylacteries follow the same rules as those of regular liches; the key difference is that they have more than one of them.

Sinfire Titan
2009-06-08, 10:20 AM
Libris Mortis: "A lich's phylactery cannot be part of another magic item, nor may additional magic properties be added to it."

You can disguise it as something else (LM actually recommends Nystul's for this purpose) but it can't actually DO anything.

As for demiliches, their phylacteries follow the same rules as those of regular liches; the key difference is that they have more than one of them.

Epic Spells=No rules. Period. If the caster wants to make a new magic item even though the rules say he can't, he crafts an Epic Spell that says otherwise, and overrides the rules.


He now has a magic item that is also his soul box.

Lapak
2009-06-08, 10:45 AM
Pretty sure penalties don't count as benefits.As an interesting aside, if this would true it would make demiliches among the few evil beings that could benefit from items that harm evil users. If the benefits, but not the penalties, are transferred, you can drop a 'Robe of Awesome, Inflicts 10 negative levels on Evil wearers' by your phylactery and get all of the Awesome with none of the pain.

EDIT: For that matter, any beneficial-item-with-a-drawback, like Legacy-weapon style wearable items, could also potentially slide through this loophole.

ZeroNumerous
2009-06-08, 10:47 AM
Are we discussing an epic caster? Remember the level adjustments involved. +4 for becoming a lich, and another +6 (for a total of +10) for becoming a demi-lich.


The lich must be a sorcerer, wizard, or cleric of at least 21st level. Each soul gem costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation. Soul gems appear as egg-shaped gems of wondrous quality. They are always incorporated directly into the concentrated form of the demilich.

Yes, we are since being a demilich requires you to be an epic caster in the first place.

Optimystik
2009-06-08, 10:57 AM
Epic Spells=No rules. Period.

Not so: even Epic Spells have rules. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsintro.htm)

Furthermore, the rules say that "can + can't = can't." What you could do is get around the restriction by finding a way to add magic to your phylactery without making the item itself any more magical. That should be possible with some latent magic and a few spell completion trigger phrases. But getting around a rule is more an acknowledgment of the rule's existence than a breach of it.

Krrth
2009-06-08, 11:03 AM
Yes, we are since being a demilich requires you to be an epic caster in the first place.

True. However, since a Demi-Lich is a Cl 29, it's ECL is somewhere around a 39. It may be an epic caster, but most likely only barely.

mostlyharmful
2009-06-08, 11:16 AM
Not so: even Epic Spells have rules. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsintro.htm)

Furthermore, the rules say that "can + can't = can't." What you could do is get around the restriction by finding a way to add magic to your phylactery without making the item itself any more magical. That should be possible with some latent magic and a few spell completion trigger phrases. But getting around a rule is more an acknowledgment of the rule's existence than a breach of it.

Specific trumps general. The rule is no magic shinies, if the specific new epic spell says otherwise then the rules they go bye-bye.

And I thought Demiliches had an LA of - meaning no-one can play them rather than +6 which isn't really crippling since you're already an epic caster?

Krrth
2009-06-08, 11:25 AM
Specific trumps general. The rule is no magic shinies, if the specific new epic spell says otherwise then the rules they go bye-bye.

And I thought Demiliches had an LA of - meaning no-one can play them rather than +6 which isn't really crippling since you're already an epic caster?


They add 6 to the callange rating or the base lich, which has a ecl of +4. They are listed as having the abilities of a 21st level wizard and a CR of 29...so an ECL of +8 or so.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/demilich.htm

ZeroNumerous
2009-06-08, 11:34 AM
True. However, since a Demi-Lich is a Cl 29, it's ECL is somewhere around a 39. It may be an epic caster, but most likely only barely.

"Only barely" broken is still a broken game.

quick_comment
2009-06-08, 01:13 PM
You could also put your phylactery inside a magic item.

Make a phylactery, shrink it, ward it and then stick it in the hilt of a sword, which you then enchant the bejeezus out of.

Optimystik
2009-06-08, 02:07 PM
Specific trumps general. The rule is no magic shinies, if the specific new epic spell says otherwise then the rules they go bye-bye.

Don't forget that DM approval applies to all epic spells.


You could also put your phylactery inside a magic item.

Make a phylactery, shrink it, ward it and then stick it in the hilt of a sword, which you then enchant the bejeezus out of.

Read my quote from LM: Phylacteries cannot be part of other magic items.

Locking it in a magic box is one thing, but attaching it to a magic sword is out.

Teln
2009-06-08, 03:17 PM
Read my quote from LM: Phylacteries cannot be part of other magic items.

Locking it in a magic box is one thing, but attaching it to a magic sword is out.

Really? I read that rule as saying that the phylactery couldn't be a component of a magic item, like being the blade of a magic sword, but does that apply if it's inside a magic sword's hilt? It's not doing anything, it's just laying there. Just like if it was in a magic box.

Rin_Hunter
2009-06-08, 05:26 PM
Thanks for all the replies people. Just so you know, in this case I'm the DM, so nothing is out really.

I agree that the Phylactery could just sit inside another magic item and I've been inspired to make to make a Phylactery construct, but not today because I have other villains to plan.

EDIT
I was planning on having a minion looking after the powerful magic items that the Demilich gained and can no longer wear, but still have all the benefits. The minion would be an apprentice or powerful ally most likely.