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PrismaticPIA
2009-06-07, 01:13 PM
Is it possible to initiate a maneuver (for example: Insightful Strike) as part of an attack of oppertunity?

Question the second: How would you go about synergizing Improved Combat expertise with a build based around Insightful Strike?

Sinfire Titan
2009-06-07, 01:17 PM
1: No. Some DMs allow it as a house rule, but that's not allowed by the RAW.


2: Not sure what you mean.

PrismaticPIA
2009-06-07, 01:24 PM
Ah. So much for that idea.

I'm trying to build a...for lack of a better phrase "Quiet Tank". I like the idea of Insightful Strike for flavor (and with enough tinkering, I can get the damage a legitimate level for this particular campaign). My second thought was Improved Combat Expertise, but I've never made a build around it, and I don't know how to incorporate in into the Insightful Strike build effectively.

Any ideas?

Sinfire Titan
2009-06-07, 01:47 PM
Ah. So much for that idea.

I'm trying to build a...for lack of a better phrase "Quiet Tank". I like the idea of Insightful Strike for flavor (and with enough tinkering, I can get the damage a legitimate level for this particular campaign). My second thought was Improved Combat Expertise, but I've never made a build around it, and I don't know how to incorporate in into the Insightful Strike build effectively.

Any ideas?

Improved Combat Expertise is considered a trap by CO. Your AC really doesn't matter unless you get it into the mid 60s or higher by level 20, as miss chances are more useful and harder to bypass (and miss chances apply to all attacks, not just melee or ranged, so it protects against Touch spells and other touch effects).

Animefunkmaster
2009-06-07, 01:49 PM
There is actually two abilities called insightful strike, neither of which synergize well with combat expertise (or its improved version).

Insightful strike is a swordsage class ability, adding wisdom to damage when executing a specific discipline maneuver. This doesn't work well with combat expertise as: Sword sage has medium base attack bonus and the two abilities don't have anything in common (one takes away from your to hit to change into AC, the other adds damage based on wisdom modifier).

The maneuver (adding a concentration check for damage) also has nothing to do with combat expertise (or it's improved version).

Combat expertise and its improved version aren't specifically optimal (the 5 bab cap for the initial feat hurts its effectiveness and if you can drop a foe, with say power attack, before he has a chance to hit you, your also keeping yourself safe... and it does nothing against spells that require a save rather than touch ac).

With that all said here is my suggestions for using improved combat expertise. First thing is first, I would only get improved combat expertise if your consistently going to go over the -5 to hit cap. Some ways to keep you effective while taking a penalty to hit are:Charging, Flanking, Flat footed AC, Touch AC (maneuvers can help with this). A relatively cheesy thing is to grab the Skillful weapon enhancement (+2) from complete arcane which gives you proficiency with the weapon of choice an a 3/4th base attack bonus. The bonuses from this bab and your normal bab don't stack they overlap, meaning you could dump your highest bonus into combat expertise and still have a reasonable to hit.

As far as "tanking" is concerned. It takes more than just high AC to be considered a tank, you either want to build toward good saving throws or hp in addition to high AC, preferably both.

Edit: Note that the above poster is slightly mistaken, combat expertise grants a dodge bonus which works just fine against touch attacks and ranged touch attacks.
Edit2: strike for correctness, combat expertise takes a penalty and doesn't lower your bab. For some reason my brain had it function like the Kensai's instill ability. My mistake.

Sinfire Titan
2009-06-07, 01:59 PM
Edit: Note that the above poster is slightly mistaken, combat expertise grants a dodge bonus which works just fine against touch attacks and ranged touch attacks.

I was referring to AC in general, not just Combat Expertise. AC is largely regarded as a tertiary defense by CO; having a high AC is helpful but largely irrelevant late in the campaign. Many types of attacks completely ignore AC, and some attacks can bypass major sources of AC with ease (Touch spells). Mischances apply to the latter while still being effective against normal attacks, which makes mischances a more efficient version of AC. Although no one will say anything bad about having a decent AC and a form of mischance on your character sheet.

Douglas
2009-06-07, 02:37 PM
A relatively cheesy thing is to grab the Skillful weapon enhancement (+2) from complete arcane which gives you proficiency with the weapon of choice an a 3/4th base attack bonus. The bonuses from this bab and your normal bab don't stack they overlap, meaning you could dump your highest bonus into combat expertise and still have a reasonable to hit.
Very cheesy, and also it doesn't work. Combat Expertise does not reduce your BAB, it gives a penalty on attack rolls. That penalty will still apply regardless of how your BAB is determined.

PrismaticPIA
2009-06-07, 02:54 PM
I'm not too attached to Swordsage. I'm mainly looking for a way to max out ac while still doing consistent damage with the IS maneuver.

Character level is around 13, and it doesn't have to be optimal. My dm doesn't optimize.

Dacia Brabant
2009-06-07, 03:42 PM
Well one thing that improves the way Combat Expertise functions is the feat Active Shield Defense from PHB2, which negates your CE penalty to hit when you make Attacks of Opportunity but you have to be wearing a shield. It also has Shield Specialization as a prerequisite so it's a bit feat-intensive as you'll be wanting to max out your AoOs too (Combat Reflexes, Robilar's Gambit). Combining this with Pearl of Black Doubt stance will really jack your AC up into the stratosphere, if you can provoke enough attacks against you.

As for Insightful/Greater Insightful Strike, this is best with a character that's not really optimized for dealing big damage but is still maxing out Concentration (which you should be doing anyway with Diamond Mind because of those saving throw counters). If psionics are available and you can afford the dip, or take a race that's naturally psionic, then you can gain Psionic Focus which you can then use to take 15 on any Concentration check, which is awesome with Diamond Mind.

Animefunkmaster
2009-06-07, 04:13 PM
Very cheesy, and also it doesn't work. Combat Expertise does not reduce your BAB, it gives a penalty on attack rolls. That penalty will still apply regardless of how your BAB is determined.

You are correct sir, my mistake. Touche.

Quellian-dyrae
2009-06-07, 04:34 PM
Hmm...my basic idea for a Combat Expertise/Greater Insightful Strike character would be something like:

Strongheart Halfling (or Human) Swordsage 2/Warblade 11.
Dex > Wis > Int (13+) > Con > Cha > Str

FEATS:
1: Two Weapon Fighting.
1 (Race): Combat Expertise.
1 (Ssg): Discipline Focus (Weapon Focus: Tiger Claw).
3: Weapon Finesse.
6: Improved Two Weapon Fighting.
7 (Wbd): Improved Initiative.
9: Improved Combat Expertise.
11 (Wbd): Iron Will.
12: Greater Two Weapon Fighting.

*Assuming DM allows Assassin's Stance to count for prerequisite. Otherwise, Improved Critical, Improved Combat Expertise, or some other feat of choice.

IMPORTANT MANEUVERS:
Blood in the Water, Greater Insightful Strike (of course).

GEAR:
AC-boosters, enchanted Mithral Shirt, Keen kukris, and ideally a custom item of Concentration, plus whatever else you want. Animated shield would be ideal as well.

TACTICS:
The primary tactic here is to Greater Insightful Strike the major foes for high damage (with a good chance of threatening a crit, although I'm not 100% sure that Insightful Strike can score crits...might want to double check with the DM on that one), despite your low strength and weapon damage. In the off-rounds, you full attack and recover your maneuvers. Each time you crit, +1 to attack and damage from blood in the water (and with six attacks per round and a 15-20 threat, you ought to be getting a crit or two). The damage bonus makes your future full attacks actually vaguely threatening, while the attack bonus can be swapped for AC with Combat Expertise. Between the swordsage AC bonus, proper gear selection, and Combat Expertise, you are able to avoid most attacks, and because you A) can do high damage with GIS and B) are only getting stronger as the battle goes on, you are a sufficient threat that enemies should find you worth attacking. Warblade d12 HD keeps you going in the rare case you get hit. You can do high enough damage to support the "kill them as fast as possible" cause, and you can soup up your defenses and bide your time for when immediate and decisive victory is not an option. I'd suggest also grabbing some White Raven maneuvers to give your allies additional options; Greater Insightful Strike + White Raven Tactics every other round is a pretty solid combo.

PrismaticPIA
2009-06-07, 08:27 PM
Well one thing that improves the way Combat Expertise functions is the feat Active Shield Defense from PHB2, which negates your CE penalty to hit when you make Attacks of Opportunity but you have to be wearing a shield. It also has Shield Specialization as a prerequisite so it's a bit feat-intensive as you'll be wanting to max out your AoOs too (Combat Reflexes, Robilar's Gambit). Combining this with Pearl of Black Doubt stance will really jack your AC up into the stratosphere, if you can provoke enough attacks against you.

As for Insightful/Greater Insightful Strike, this is best with a character that's not really optimized for dealing big damage but is still maxing out Concentration (which you should be doing anyway with Diamond Mind because of those saving throw counters). If psionics are available and you can afford the dip, or take a race that's naturally psionic, then you can gain Psionic Focus which you can then use to take 15 on any Concentration check, which is awesome with Diamond Mind.

I don't understand how Active Shield Defense negates CE's attack penalty.

Sinfire Titan
2009-06-07, 08:44 PM
I don't understand how Active Shield Defense negates CE's attack penalty.

The feat itself says you ignore the penalty while making AoOs, but you have to be using a shield to get that benefit. It also lets you retain the CE bonus.

PrismaticPIA
2009-06-07, 08:59 PM
"While fighting defensively and using a shield, you do not take the standard fighting defensive penalties on attacks of opportunity. When using a total defense action and a shield, you still threaten the area around as normal. You can make attacks of opportunity with a -4 penalty." (71PHB II)

Can you please explain further how this interacts with CE and ICE?

Keld Denar
2009-06-07, 11:34 PM
Yea...Fighting Defensively =! to Combat Expertese. Granted, CE and FD are often referenced together with things like Tumble or whatnot, but they are NOT the same thing.

Dacia Brabant
2009-06-08, 10:40 AM
Huh, I could have sworn that Combat Expertise was mentioned in the feat description, but I guess it isn't. Even so, I feel it's entirely reasonable to rule that Active Shield Defense would apply because of the way Combat Expertise is written:



Combat Expertise [General]
Prerequisite
Int 13.

Benefit
When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as -5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action.

Normal
A character without the Combat Expertise feat can fight defensively while using the attack or full attack action to take a -4 penalty on attack rolls and gain a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class.


Whenever you have a feat with a "Normal" section that follows the description/benefit section, what's happening is the feat is overriding the standard rules of the game. So "fighting defensively" is either replaced or it still exists but with its integer values and ratio changed by Combat Expertise. Even if it's the case though that "fighting defensively" is replaced and no longer applicable I think you'd still have to conclude that someone using Combat Expertise is fighting on the defensive. I mean that's what those numbers are representing.

Furthermore, "fighting defensively" and Combat Expertise aren't separate actions, they simply are changing the way the same two actions (attack or full attack) are calculated, with the feat's values overriding the rule's. So it may not be explicitly RAW to say that Combat Expertise applies to every single instance where "fighting defensively" is mentioned, but I think it's a reasonable inference on the basis of how feats interact with rules.

I guess there could be balance issues with allowing the feats to interact, but the resource investment plus the fact that it only synergizes on AoOs (which are conditional after all) mitigates that I think. As always though it's up to the GM.

Kaiyanwang
2009-06-08, 11:48 AM
Huh, I could have sworn that Combat Expertise was mentioned in the feat description, but I guess it isn't. Even so, I feel it's entirely reasonable to rule that Active Shield Defense would apply because of the way Combat Expertise is written:


Maybe designer were thinking to this, at first time. But then said:

"No, in this way shield fighting it's viable! No, no way."

Starbuck_II
2009-06-08, 11:52 AM
Improved Combat Expertise is considered a trap by CO. Your AC really doesn't matter unless you get it into the mid 60s or higher by level 20, as miss chances are more useful and harder to bypass (and miss chances apply to all attacks, not just melee or ranged, so it protects against Touch spells and other touch effects).

Couldn't enemies just have +2 Illusion bane weapons (+2 weapons are only 8000 gp)? They ignore all illusion miss chances.

Keld Denar
2009-06-08, 12:07 PM
Furthermore, "fighting defensively" and Combat Expertise aren't separate actions, they simply are changing the way the same two actions (attack or full attack) are calculated, with the feat's values overriding the rule's. So it may not be explicitly RAW to say that Combat Expertise applies to every single instance where "fighting defensively" is mentioned, but I think it's a reasonable inference on the basis of how feats interact with rules.


Fighting Defensively and using Combat Expertese aren't seperate action, since both are non-actions to apply, as long as you make at least 1 attack in a round. They are seperate conditions though, and you can apply both. If you CE for 5 AND fight defensively, you'd take a -9 to hit and gain +7 to your AC. Nothing precludes that from happening. You'll just have a hard time hitting the broad side of a barn unless you have a REALLY talented Bard or some method of hitting the much more vulnerable touch AC, like Emerald Razor.

Sinfire Titan
2009-06-08, 03:10 PM
Couldn't enemies just have +2 Illusion bane weapons (+2 weapons are only 8000 gp)? They ignore all illusion miss chances.

Not all mischances are Illusion though. Blink is Transmutation (and your own 20% failure chance is easily bypassed with Transdimensional spell), while Solid Fog (or any other Fog spell) is Conjuration.

Granted, Illusion Bane weapons do work, but how many MM encounters can make use of those? Only a couple every few levels.