Why a druid?

[Korivan]

Having been introduced to DnD in 2nd edition, and only recently converting to 3-3.5, i admit my build skills with 3rd are not the best. But can anyone tell me why people keep saying druids are overpowered? If possible show me how, i dont want to play one, i just want to know if there is any silly surprises i should watch out for.

[The Glyphstone]

Natural Spell and animal companion. Wild Shape lets them fight in melee as well as any melee class, they're a full spellcaster as well, and they effectively get a fighter as a class feature.

[Dogmantra]

They get full casting (albeit slightly worse than a cleric), wild shape which makes them into a melee beast and another melee beast in the form of an animal companion.

They're quite easy to do right, and they only really need WIS and CON, and no other physical stats, because wildshape negates it.

EDIT: Darn you, ninja!

[lsfreak]

Animal companion is better melee than a melee. The druid is a better melee than a melee, thanks to wildshape. And they get full casting while already being two fighters.

[Eldariel]

On level 6, Natural Spell and 2 uses of Wildshape mean a Druid can spend 12 hours a day in Wildshape; whole adventuring day effectively. This means he gets animal strength, animal speed, natural armor and such without actually expending any resources on it. While maintaining his spellcasting.

And his spells (especially Greater Magic Fang, Barkskin and company) just increases these free stats further. Not only that, but he's also full caster with Dispel Magic, many variations of Teleportation, best summons in the game and some worthwhile offense (while in a flying form, Call Lightning is amazing just as an example. Also, Extended Creeping Cold is really nasty; oh yeah, they have 12 hours of flight-capability should it be needed on level 6 too). Oh, and Entangle, the best level 1 battlefield control disabling spell, and targets the most rare save, Reflex.

That and there's the animal companion which is evenly matched with Fighters on low levels (or even better than most non-optimized low-level Barbarians) and with spells, keeps up just fine. Level 1 Riding Dog, level 3 either keep it or Fleshraker [MM3], level 6 bigger animals going eventually for Brown Bear, Dire Bear, Dire Tiger and Horrid Tiger [ECS], for example. Tyrannosaur, standard Tiger, many other Dire animals (Dire Lion, for example), many Dinosaurs and so on are all fine warrior companions too.


Basically, a Druid is a competent Fighter on his own right. Then his animal companion is also a competent Fighter. In addition he's a full spellcasting caster with best summons in the game, who are also competent fighters or spellcasters (Unicorn is a healbot, Pixie can cast Otto's Irresistible Dance, etc.). As long as you know Druid's spells and Wildshape/Summon forms, you don't even need to work to make it insane. A low-level Druid is just the best class at everything.

With one sentence: A Druid buys you two fighters and one full spellcaster in one character.

[raitalin]

Put simply its full-casting + best animal companion + wildshape + medium BAB + 2 good saves. No other class gets that whole package.

Supposedly their casting is limited, as it doesn't have the blasting of the Sorcerer/Wizard list and doesn't have the healing ability of the Cleric. As it turns out, those aren't the best parts of those lists either. The best (read:most efficient) spells are battlefield control, save or suck/dies and buffs; all of which the Druid gets plenty of, especially with access to the Spell Compendium.

Animal Companion & wildshape are what can trip you up if you haven't dealt with Druids before, as these are whole new areas for optimizers to exploit. Hours of pouring over the MMs (or a quick trip to various forums) dig up obscure creatures like the Fleshraker dinosaur, which can give you fits. This aspect of druids is easily controlled by the DM, however, as companions & wildshape have to be creatures encountered in-game or creatures common to the Druid's home region.

I'm sure I've already been ninja'd.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I am a druid, I have special abilities that are more powerful than your entire class! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0346.html)

Thar's na way a primary spellcaster like ye can survive in melee combat fer long if'n he hadn't prepared fer it! ... Ah, right. Druid. Ne'er mind, then. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html)

As a spellcaster, a Druid is nearly equal to a Cleric or Wizard in power, and superior to spontaneous spellcasters in versatility.

As a melee combatant, a Druid is at least equal to any primary melee class outside of ToB. With the feat Natural Spell he does not have to sacrifice his spellcasting ability to do this.

A Druid's animal companion is a superior combatant to any secondary melee class, and even most primary melee classes.

A Druid can summon a few lions, cast Animal Growth on the lions and his animal companion, and tell his party, "Stand back, I'll handle this encounter!"

[Calmar]

I heard something about an errata of the polymorph spell and similar abilities. Doesn't it affect wild shape as well?

[Eldariel]

I heard something about an errata of the polymorph spell and similar abilities. Doesn't it affect wild shape as well?

Yes, but all the errata does little to weaken the abilities. All it did was make Druids require Constitution again.

[Mando Knight]

And then there's Spontaneous Summon Nature's Ally X. Not quite as all-purpose as Summon Monster, but useful nonetheless. Especially when combined with Augment Summoning.

[Yora]

Pathfinder handles Wild Shape differently.

You get a limited selection of shapes, starting with medium and small animal and eventually getting to huge animal or large magical beast.
If you shape into a wolf, a cheeta or a baboon doesn't really make much of a difference. You always get +2 strength and +2 natural armor. If the animal you've chosen has climb, fly, or swim speed, low-light vision, darkvision or scent, you also get that.
You don't lose any of your normal stats, it mostly works like a buff that also makes you look different.

At higher levels, you can change into a huge animal with +6 to strength and natural armor, and -4 to dexterity. Also, at higher levels you can pick from additional abilities, like constrict, poison, pounce and the like.

I really like it, as you can't break the ability by finding an obscure animal or magical beast in a third party splatbook. But I guess even that way, a druid is pretty strong.

[hamishspence]

3.5 had a similar method in Player's Handbook 2- Wild Shape variant.

[InkEyes]

That's also pretty much how a 4e Druid's wildshape works. Basically, Wizards realized that they accidentally let a class powerful enough for three separate classes get published in a core book, and they did everything short of openly admitting they screwed up to rectify it. That's how bad Druids are in 3.5.

[Trodon]

I am a druid, I have special abilities that are more powerful than your entire class! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0346.html)

Thar's na way a primary spellcaster like ye can survive in melee combat fer long if'n he hadn't prepared fer it! ... Ah, right. Druid. Ne'er mind, then. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html)

As a spellcaster, a Druid is nearly equal to a Cleric or Wizard in power, and superior to spontaneous spellcasters in versatility.

As a melee combatant, a Druid is at least equal to any primary melee class outside of ToB. With the feat Natural Spell he does not have to sacrifice his spellcasting ability to do this.

A Druid's animal companion is a superior combatant to any secondary melee class, and even most primary melee classes.

A Druid can summon a few lions, cast Animal Growth on the lions and his animal companion, and tell his party, "Stand back, I'll handle this encounter!"

so true they are overpowerd

[DJDizzy]

What animal companion would be best, if only using core books?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

What animal companion would be best, if only using core books?

I like wolves for tripping, and scent.

[Set]

Note that 'better melee than a melee' is assuming that you mean 'with less BAB, less hit points and way, way less AC than an equal level melee.' (Which applies to both the Wild Shape and to the Animal Companion.)

Some animal forms do indeed outdamage melee classes of their level, for awhile. Melee classes with halfway decent gear and feat selections tend to catch up even in the damage area, after a while.

There are 'sweet spot' levels, like 1 and 3, where the Druid's war dog will have 1 more HD than the party Fighter, but one extra HD, without a full BAB and with a single attack that does 1d6+3 or 1d6+4, and an unarmored AC, that won't attack undead or supernatural beasties without special training, does not equal most melee classes.

The Animal Companion is good to have, and about seventy bazillion times better than a Familiar, but it's no Paladin, and Wild Shape is a great convenience for flying around, but only becomes a strong melee option when fortified by various spells. As opposed to the Cleric, who *doesn't* turn into an animal, and fortifies itself with various spells, to be a mock Fighter.

Or you could play a real Fighter, and be a Fighter all day long, and not just when you've burned a half-dozen spells and a daily use of a class feature to be able to pretend to be one. :)

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Or you could play a real Fighter, and be a Fighter all day long, and not just when you've burned a half-dozen spells and a daily use of a class feature to be able to pretend to be one. :)

You can wildshape all day at higher levels, and have wildshape attempts to spare, as well as a massive number of spells to burn due to only having to focus on two stats.

So you would burn a few spells, use wildshape, and be a fighter all day long.

And probably do a better job of it than a Fighter.

[shadow_archmagi]

At 8th level, a druid can become a Rhinoceros.


Size/Type: Large Animal
Hit Dice: 8d8+40 (76 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (-1 size, +7 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+18
Attack: Gore +13 melee (2d6+12)
Full Attack: Gore +13 melee (2d6+12)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Powerful charge
Special Qualities: Low-light vision
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +6, Will +3
Abilities: Str 26, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 2
Skills: Listen +14, Spot +3
Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Improved Natural Attack (gore)
Environment: Warm plains
Organization: Solitary or herd (2-12)
Challenge Rating: 4
Advancement: 9-12 HD (Large); 13-24 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: —

POWERFUL CHARGE:
A rhinoceros deals 4d6+24 points of damage when it makes a charge.


It can also have a rhinoceros as it's animal companion. If it feels like wasting a single spell, we can add in a Tiger. Take a CR 8 encounter, and ask yourself: "Could two rhinos and a Tiger take on this thing?"

There's not really too much need for the tiger, it just seals the deal.

[Gorbash]

{Scrubbed}

[Eldariel]

Note that 'better melee than a melee' is assuming that you mean 'with less BAB, less hit points and way, way less AC than an equal level melee.' (Which applies to both the Wild Shape and to the Animal Companion.)

Throw a level 1 Fighter vs. a Riding Dog; they're about evenly matched. Now, if the Riding Dog is equipped (like say, Studded Leather Barding), the Fighter better be well-built if he wants to win; Riding Dog has +3 attack with the automatic Trip Attempt if it hits, while Fighter has ~+5 to attack, but while the Fighter can't afford AC much higher than 16 (assuming Scale Mail and 14 Dex here), the Dog has 19 AC.

They have about the same HP, with the Dog probably having ~1 more. Their chance to hit is about the same, with the Fighter dealing more damage but the Dog having the Trip-attempt which will bone the Fighter if it succeeds. And this is assuming 18 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con Fighter.


Don't forget that the Wildshape forms can wear equipment (you just have to equip them after Wildshaping), and that Druid has longlasting buffs. Just getting appropriate Bardings for your AC means that together with your natural armor, he'll have better AC than the Fighter. Druid can get a Monk's Belt and enjoy his Wis to AC; both easily beat out the Fighter (this is before spells).

And while Fighter tends to have one attack with higher chance to hit, as Druid gets multiple Natural Attacks at high attack bonuses, the Druid tends to have better overall chance to hit (thanks to Greater Magic Fang, he and his AC both have +Max For The Level weapons for free). Note that BAB doesn't really matter to Druids because Natural Weapons don't use BAB for iteratives.


Some animal forms do indeed outdamage melee classes of their level, for awhile. Melee classes with halfway decent gear and feat selections tend to catch up even in the damage area, after a while.

Sure, damage is the one thing melee can do out of Core. In all other aspects though (AC, versatility, speed, number of attacks), animal forms win out (Trippers make for fine controllers, but animal forms do the same without spending as many feats).


There are 'sweet spot' levels, like 1 and 3, where the Druid's war dog will have 1 more HD than the party Fighter, but one extra HD, without a full BAB and with a single attack that does 1d6+3 or 1d6+4, and an unarmored AC, that won't attack undead or supernatural beasties without special training, does not equal most melee classes.

It's trivial to teach the AC the Attack Anything-trick; you've got plenty of tricks, especially if you stick to smart Int 2 ACs.


The Animal Companion is good to have, and about seventy bazillion times better than a Familiar, but it's no Paladin, and Wild Shape is a great convenience for flying around, but only becomes a strong melee option when fortified by various spells. As opposed to the Cleric, who *doesn't* turn into an animal, and fortifies itself with various spells, to be a mock Fighter.

Or you could play a real Fighter, and be a Fighter all day long, and not just when you've burned a half-dozen spells and a daily use of a class feature to be able to pretend to be one. :)

Wildshape lasts all day, as do the relevant buffs (although you'll have to use few applications of Extend Spell on Barkskin even later on to make it last that long, but early on Wildshape is plenty anyways). A level 7 Druid can easily get ~25 AC with Monk's Belt + Wildshape alone and on level 8, he gets 27 Str Large forms with Improved Grab already (although Bear-form AC is pretty low, but even then it's comparable to a non-S&B Fighter of equivalent level; S&B is beat in damage and range though so it's a moot comparison).

This all while maintaining full casting. Note that magically equipping AC (and especially enhancing it with spells) can pimp the crap out of it; on high levels, AC's own stats get left a bit behind hence why equipping it becomes more and more important.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

{scrubbed}

Shall I get off your lawn, sir?

[LibraryOgre]

Having been introduced to DnD in 2nd edition, and only recently converting to 3-3.5, i admit my build skills with 3rd are not the best. But can anyone tell me why people keep saying druids are overpowered? If possible show me how, i dont want to play one, i just want to know if there is any silly surprises i should watch out for.

Several things play into it... limitations the 1st/2nd edition druid had that the 3rd does not. This is in kinda random order.

1) Size limits. AD&D druids could only become Tiny-Medium animals. They couldn't become a lot of the large creatures which cause a lot of problems.

2) What is meant by "animal". AD&D druids were usually limited to natural, present day, animals. In talking to a lot of people, most DMs did not allow dinosaurs or any Pleistocene mammals (assuming they even fit in the size limitations). This not only applied to shapechanging, but also to the Animal Companion spell.

3) Spellcasting. Druids in WD&D1 can cast spells in animal form; druids in AD&D could, at best, control spells in animal form (i.e. cast call lightning then loiter as a hawk or raven). This adds a large amount of flexibility and power to the class.

4) Animal Companion. AD&D animal companions were acquired through a spell, which specifically required you to have the animal present with you at the time of casting, and made it clear that they were still primarily animals. WD&D animal companions don't have such an explicit requirement, meaning many people treat animal companions much like an AD&D player would treat a henchman... only without them taking XP to advance. It also leads to a tendency to choose powerful creatures, rather than what was available.

5) Magic Items. Magic items in AD&D were specifically absorbed and did not function when shapechanged. In WD&D, many (though not all) magic items can be made to function in wildshape, and it's a lot more common to hear ways around it (like turning into an ape, then putting on your magic items, giving you ape strength + magic items). Not impossible in AD&D, but also not a common interpretation, IME.

6) Armors. A druid's armor selection in AD&D was pretty limited... I'm still not clear if it means that studded leather should be allowed. In WD&D, armor selection is limited only by feats and materials. In WD&D, dragonhide was a commodity, and could be had by spending enough money. Want full plate for your druid? It will cost twice what it cost the fighter, but it can be had. While a DM has control over that, there's not a lot in the rules to prevent a druid who lives near a large city from having dragonhide full plate... and they can use dragonhide breastplates without investing a feat. Furthermore, there's an enchantment specifically to let you keep your armor bonus in animal form.

7) Animals, themselves. Animals in WD&D got a fair power boost. They have the standard 6 ability scores, an armor bonus that rivals that of worn armors. This makes them much more upgradable than they were in AD&D.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

At 8th level, a druid can become a Rhinoceros.


Size/Type: Large Animal
Hit Dice: 8d8+40 (76 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (-1 size, +7 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+18
Attack: Gore +13 melee (2d6+12)
Full Attack: Gore +13 melee (2d6+12)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Powerful charge
Special Qualities: Low-light vision
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +6, Will +3
Abilities: Str 26, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 2
Skills: Listen +14, Spot +3
Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Improved Natural Attack (gore)
Environment: Warm plains
Organization: Solitary or herd (2-12)
Challenge Rating: 4
Advancement: 9-12 HD (Large); 13-24 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: —

POWERFUL CHARGE:
A rhinoceros deals 4d6+24 points of damage when it makes a charge.


It can also have a rhinoceros as it's animal companion. If it feels like wasting a single spell, we can add in a Tiger. Take a CR 8 encounter, and ask yourself: "Could two rhinos and a Tiger take on this thing?"

There's not really too much need for the tiger, it just seals the deal.

A CR 8 encounter could be for example: two rhinos and two tigers, none of which are summoned, so umm, no.

I do agree a druid is powerful, I just fail to see what you're going for here.

[ericgrau]

^ shadow_archmagi, you want to handle a CR 8 encounter with 2 CR 4 monsters? Or spend 2 rounds of actions just to get up to par? (3 rounds if you pick CR 3 monsters) Things be dead by then.


Natural Spell and animal companion. Wild Shape lets them fight in melee as well as any melee class, they're a full spellcaster as well, and they effectively get a fighter as a class feature.

Actually it takes workarounds to get gear in wildshaped form (they shouldn't) to break them in melee, and the power & CR of their animal companion is so low it's a joke. If you have a campaign with a poorly geared fighter or a druid who has dire tiger barding that he puts on after wildshaping (think of how many questions that brings up), then that's when things break. The spells themselves are significantly weaker than the wizard's too. But Glyphstone did hit one significant point: they get versatility.

FWIW in the games I've played the druids were fairly mediocre. For char op OTOH, just give them the versatility and don't worry about they power; they'll provide that.

[Korivan]

Thanks everybody, all this has been extremely enlightning. The options and abilities changed drastically between 2nd and 3rd edition and seeing this, id say ya, with natural and quicken spells, a druid would be a caster and 2 fighters in each round, if not any given round.

One of our dm's absolutly loves using gestalt in his campaigns. Now, I do optimise with my characters, but im thinking of really taking it to the next level and try out a druid/fighter, druid/monk, or fighter/monk with Vow of Poverty:smallbiggrin:

[Kaiyanwang]

Now, don't get me wrong, I think that Mark hall said enough, but.. people, I think we are going too far.

Eladriel: I see your point, (and your math) but can you ask to that door to cover a corner with a tower shield? break a door? Shot an arrow? Intimidate? Help the drood in handle an animal? I can see that Druidzilla is Druidzilla, and Natural Spell is in my list of "Editor was under narcotics" things, but there are a lot of things that the dog simply can't do.

The riding dog has +2 melee for d4+1 damage and no trip.

On the other hand, has +3 melee and d6+1 damage. Trips, but with str 13 and no bonuses.

Don't get me wrong, Druid is great, but I don't see how the fighter with at least 10 HP can lose against the dog. A lucky wolf can win but IMHO a low level Druid is not so great without the companion, so the wolf is acceptable at these levels. The cheese starts with Wildshape, IMHO. And is less than people generally say.

Again, not to completely go against what you said, but the druid should wildshape in animals he knows. Similar thing for the companion. What are the shapes allowed can be the result of an agreement between DM and Player.

More, the wildshape-all-day thing: if the campaing is COMPLETELY hack-and-slash, can happen but I wonder if in actual play happens. The druid could interrupt wildshape to talk with a fey, a wandering ranger, or simply too take an healing herb that cannot be harvested with the claws of a bear.


Gorbash: I don't want to start another fighter thread and I recognize that my experience can be different and a good game shoud adapt to many gamestyles, but IMHO call someone noobs because for him a system works seems a little bit harshly.

I see a lot of people say a lot of thing about Batman Wizards, CoDzillas, Challenge rating that don't work, ToB mandatory (don't get me wrong I don't hate it and I want to add it to my campaign soon).

I ask if, when these things happen, is fault of the system (a system full of problem, undenaiable) or of an overdose of cheese regarded as "sane optimization".

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Now, I do optimise with my characters, but im thinking of really taking it to the next level and try out a druid/fighter, druid/monk, or fighter/monk with Vow of Poverty:smallbiggrin:

Word of advice: Don't.

[Eloel]

druid/monk with Vow of Poverty
This doesn't work.
Druid + Monk = Lawful Neutral (only)
VoP + Monk = Lawful Good (only)
VoP + Druid = Neutral Good (only)

[Eldariel]

I see your point, (and your math) but can you ask to that door to cover a corner with a tower shield? break a door? Shot an arrow? Intimidate? Help the drood in handle an animal? I can see that Druidzilla is Druidzilla, and Natural Spell is in my list of "Editor was under narcotics" things, but there are a lot of things that the dog simply can't do.

On the other hand, it can Track, it won't stab your back, and it will follow your instructions as well as it can, unlike the stupid Fighter who goes about having his own bright "ideas". Heh, only the Track really, but we were discussing combat prowess anyways; sure, the Dog isn't as versatile, but it has things going on for it over the Fighter too. And Fighter tends to be forced to focus later on anyways as his Dex will lag behind making his archery poor especially if he doesn't want to pour 3 feats into it, and the tower shield will mostly be a huge load on his back and so on. But it's true that in level 1-2 combat (provided you can afford the gear), the Fighter is more versatile. But Dogs definitely make for far better performers than Fighters so he's like to earn you more money. :P


The riding dog has +2 melee for d4+1 damage and no trip.

On the other hand, has +3 melee and d6+1 damage. Trips, but with str 13 and no bonuses.

Riding Dog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dogRiding.htm) has 15 Str, +3 melee and 1d6+3 damage. Make sure yours is trained for war and it has the Trip-attack.


Don't get me wrong, Druid is great, but I don't see how the fighter with at least 10 HP can lose against the dog. A lucky wolf can win but IMHO a low level Druid is not so great without the companion, so the wolf is acceptable at these levels. The cheese starts with Wildshape, IMHO. And is less than people generally say.

With the numbers pointed above, it's possible; the Dog has the Fighter beat in AC while the Fighter has the Dog beat in attack bonus and damage. I'll give you, a Greatsword-wielding Fighter has a good chance to win, but all it takes is one Trip-check gone bad and the Fighter is in serious trouble (from ground, he has insanely low chances of hitting and if he gets up, he'll take another smash in the face at -4 AC). Of course, the Druid himself still has his spells and so on, but the Dog is a credible warrior at this point.


Again, not to completely go against what you said, but the druid should wildshape in animals he knows. Similar thing for the companion. What are the shapes allowed can be the result of an agreement between DM and Player.

Sure, but that's really, really tough to account for in a discussion like this. That's why I assumed some common creatures like dogs, tigers and bears. What constitutes as "familiar" isn't defined in the rules and thus is pretty pointless in a discussion like this; some DM might require Druid to have lived all their life with the creature, some might say you need to make a Knowledge (Nature) check to know of the creature, some might say you only need to have seen one.

With Dire-creatures and Dinosaurs, this is a fine argument, but with Bears and Dogs? I think we can assume they'd be in the options of the usual Druid. But yeah, there's some DM dependence here, more so since mechanics don't directly state one thing or the other.


More, the wildshape-all-day thing: if the campaing is COMPLETELY hack-and-slash, can happen but I wonder if in actual play happens. The druid could interrupt wildshape to talk with a fey, a wandering ranger, or simply too take an healing herb that cannot be harvested with the claws of a bear.

*shrug* Depends, on level 6 you've got 12 hours of Wildshape so you can put on your "travel form" when you set off and if you come up to something that requires Human's touch, you can shift back and then Wildshape again with 6 hours remaining. Level 7 gives you a third use, which is already plenty to remain Wildshaped in most areas where you might be attacked while still maintaining enough uses to assume Humanoid-shape as necessary unless you are on some Fed Ex quest, but those hardly require Druid's diplomatic influence anyways.

My experience (I've DMed for two Druids and played one myself, but this at least applied to those cases) is that a Druid can afford a rather good coverage with the 3 Wildshapes on 7 and as long as he's a bit more mindful of when to shift, he'll be fine on 6 too. It's not always convenient, but if you're in a scenario where danger is constantly present, it's probably the superior alternative to being caught your pants down and getting your party killed.



This doesn't work.
Druid + Monk = Lawful Neutral (only)
VoP + Monk = Lawful Good (only)
VoP + Druid = Neutral Good (only)

VoP Ex-Monk 1/Druid 19 = Neutral Good works just fine. Not that I'd endorse such, but if you must, shifting from Lawful Good to Neutral Good as you turn to serve the nature and others over serving order only seems logical.

[paddyfool]

To make a druid less overpowered, and still fun:

- Nerf Natural Spell. We've a whole series of options (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6349570) for how to do so under discussion in the homebrew board; one of the most popular seems to be to make it a +2 metamagic feat instead, so that if a druid wants to cast while wild shaped it actually costs something.

- Possibly also nerf the lesser problem of Animal Companion, by making it as ranger (ie, starting at level 4). There is a feat (Natural Bond) that'll fix this... but hey, even if you allow it, at least it's not a totally free meat shield.

[Oslecamo]

Riding Dog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dogRiding.htm) has 15 Str, +3 melee and 1d6+3 damage. Make sure yours is trained for war and it has the Trip-attack.


It takes one week to train it for war. More than enough time for the fighter to gain one level or two killing small fries.

You know, since you're basing yourself in infinite preparation time, I'll just pick a profession, practise it for some centuries, then kill your druid with a candle of invocation.

[Eldariel]

It takes one week to train it for war. More than enough time for the fighter to gain one level or two killing small fries.

Huh? Where does it say that? I wasn't referring to using Handle Animal to train it for a purpose (it already has one), I was referring to this passage in the animal description: "If trained for war, these animals can make trip attacks just as wolves do (see the Wolf entry). A riding dog can fight while carrying a rider, but the rider cannot also attack unless he or she succeeds on a Ride check."

Getting your animal companion is a part of getting your first level, the same time Fighter is training hard to get that bonus feat, full BAB and d10 HD. Relevant passage from the rules:
"Animal Companion (Ex)

A druid may begin play with an animal companion selected from the following list:"

Just choose one that's trained for war (as Riding Dog is on the list, and the option of being trained for war is in the standard Riding Dog description, this is all fair game).

[Kaiyanwang]

Eldariel, again I see your point but versatility matters a lot, IMHO, in a game that is situational. See the fighter vs dog, above: the dog is likely to be killed by the fighter by a bow. And in a fight Int matter (even if I know people less intelligent than a dog).

I undrstand your point, anyway, you say we are talking of companion vs whole class, so..

(a joke about the joke on perform: you could use CWar or Cadv - don't remember - rules to perform with BAB :smalltongue:).

On "wildshape time" I can't argue, different experience. Please note that my point is that I recognize game imbalances (I have a visual sense) I only say that we tend to see sometims only some ascpect of the problem.

[Eldariel]

Eldariel, again I see your point but versatility matters a lot, IMHO, in a game that is situational. See the fighter vs dog, above: the dog is likely to be killed by the fighter by a bow. And in a fight Int matter (even if I know people less intelligent than a dog).

Oh definitely, I'm not of the school that a Dog actually does everything the Fighter does, but my point was that in a straight-up fight, they're pretty comparable on level 1, hence the whole "Druid gets a Fighter cohort as a class feature"-phrase. Because there's the stereotype of Fighters who just do a lot of fighting and sit back in social scenes and such, much like the Dog. I agree that a Fighter has many alternatives a Dog doesn't (such as a golfbag of weapons, the option of placing skill points however he pleases, access to Improved Trip and Power Attack among others, etc.) especially in construction, but the real point of this discussion all along, as I understood it, was the comparison between their fighting abilities. Out of combat, the Dog pretty much has Track and that's all he does.

It's worth noting that even against a Fighter with a bow (the bow prices on level 1 are extraorbitant though; 75gp for a friggin' Longbow! Light Crossbow would be more affordable), the Dog is pretty well off thanks to the 40' movement speed and 80' possible charge (given no rough terrain), and the fact that the Fighter is likely to have higher Str than Dex unless he's a dedicated Archer and thus hit even worse with the Bow (and he's like to require 3-4 shots to the Dog's 13 HP with a bow given no Composite Bow is affordable).


In the end, the argument towards' Druids' imbalance in this case is that a level 1 Druid has a class feature that fights almost as well as a level 1 Fighter, and that's without even going to the Druid's abilities and spells, which I think is quite true; while there are many things a Fighter does a Dog can't do (and some things a Dog can do a Fighter can't), the fact that the Dog even comes close to Fighter's capabilities is just wrong.

But yeah, we're both clear on this so I don't really see why I'm typing stuff all parties are aware off :smalltongue:

EDIT: Well, the Dog does have fairly good Spot and Listen for level 1 too; would be more exciting if the Druid didn't have everyone dominated on that aspect already.

[Kaiyanwang]

EDIT: Well, the Dog does have fairly good Spot and Listen for level 1 too; would be more exciting if the Druid didn't have everyone dominated on that aspect already.

True, but he dog says "bark bark bark" not "there are two goblins and an orc" unless it's a disney movie.*

Okok I stop now :smallwink:

*interesting campaing idea, maybe. Savage species?

[Eldariel]

True, but he dog says "bark bark bark" not "there are two goblins and an orc" unless it's a disney movie.*

*interesting campaing idea, maybe. Savage species?

Meh, at least he does something unlike the wood-eye Fighter who couldn't see his own fingers 'cause they're too small... :P

And yeah, everyone playing Anthropomorphic Animals? Could work. Or just making standard animals sentient :P

[Tsotha-lanti]

True, but he dog says "bark bark bark" not "there are two goblins and an orc" unless it's a disney movie.*

plz meet my friend

Speak with Animals
Divination
Level: Brd 3, Drd 1, Rgr 1 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 1 min./level

You can comprehend and communicate with animals. You are able to ask questions of and receive answers from animals, although the spell doesn’t make them any more friendly or cooperative than normal. Furthermore, wary and cunning animals are likely to be terse and evasive, while the more stupid ones make inane comments. If an animal is friendly toward you, it may do some favor or service for you.

[Gnaeus]

At low levels everyone is vulnerable to a well timed crit.

While the requirement that they revere nature may keep the better role-players from using their pet as an expendable meat shield, and better DMs can scare some of the rest, the fact remains that if your fighter dies, he is dead. If your wolf dies "accidently", you call another one up tomorrow, put the same armor on him, and are good to go. Even if that doesn't mean that you are treating your pet as a damage shield and sending him ahead to check for traps, if your party is fireballed and everyone is injured, you can heal the pet last. Few fighters will settle for such treatment. Except of course, that if everyone is injured, the neutral druid will heal himself FIRST, and the pet will be conveniently healed as a consequence.

Another + for the pet is that the druids buffs are shared with him. A level 3 druid pet can be expected to have barkskin and produce flame going for him in a critical fight. Few fighters can compete with that kind of dedicated buffage. By the time you hit level 5, the bite of the X series gives the pets free feats and stats that shame the fighter. The druid just casts his long term buffs before the adventuring day starts (which he would anyway) and spends one round in most combats buffing himself before charging the enemy (which he would anyway) keeps his pet within 30 feet (companion spellbond) and you have an easy tactic that works in 90% of fights.

[Tukka]

Just choose one that's trained for war (as Riding Dog is on the list, and the option of being trained for war is in the standard Riding Dog description, this is all fair game).
Also, under the Combat Riding entry under the skill description for Handle Animal, riding dogs are specifically noted as being trained for combat riding (which seems to mean they all come preloaded with a host of tricks: attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel). The only combat-related trick/purpose listed under Handle Animal besides Combat Riding is Fighting (there is no "Trained for War" option listed), and the only Fighting trick that isn't included in Combat Riding is stay. So if you pick stay as your bonus trick, I think it's fair to say your companion is trained for war and is capable of tripping without any additional training.

Also note that the attack trick also comes preloaded on war dogs, so it ought to be able to attack undead and aberrations out of the box too.

[Eurantien]

This has become a debate on druid tactics, seemingly. Very interesting reading. I think, despite what has been said, that we all know druids ARE overpowered. Perhaps not quite able to take an entire encounter themselves, but team them with another cast (heaven forfend another druid), and they more or less can. It's mostly polymorph/animal form's fault.

[chiasaur11]

True, but he dog says "bark bark bark" not "there are two goblins and an orc" unless it's a disney movie.*

Okok I stop now :smallwink:

*interesting campaing idea, maybe. Savage species?

Well, Bark Bark can explain a lot.

Ever seen "Lassie"?

[Kaiyanwang]

plz meet my friend

Speak with Animals
Divination
Level: Brd 3, Drd 1, Rgr 1 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 1 min./level

You can comprehend and communicate with animals. You are able to ask questions of and receive answers from animals, although the spell doesn’t make them any more friendly or cooperative than normal. Furthermore, wary and cunning animals are likely to be terse and evasive, while the more stupid ones make inane comments. If an animal is friendly toward you, it may do some favor or service for you.

You either have the spell cast, and the "bark" must happen while the buff is on, or you have to cast it, and maybe you have no time. Yes is powerful, no is not always possible use it.



At low levels everyone is vulnerable to a well timed crit.
Another + for the pet is that the druids buffs are shared with him. A level 3 druid pet can be expected to have barkskin and produce flame going for him in a critical fight. Few fighters can compete with that kind of dedicated buffage. By the time you hit level 5, the bite of the X series gives the pets free feats and stats that shame the fighter. The druid just casts his long term buffs before the adventuring day starts (which he would anyway) and spends one round in most combats buffing himself before charging the enemy (which he would anyway) keeps his pet within 30 feet (companion spellbond) and you have an easy tactic that works in 90% of fights.

About this, I've to admit that you are right: the bite spells are veeery powerful. I guess if the designer was thinking that the companion shares buffs when wrote them. Maybe for balance the DM could allow them only if the Druid is the actual "tank"

[Myrmex]

I recently was in a campaign with an optimized spike chain wielding warblade, a half-elf druid, and me, an optimized arcane gnome beguiler.

As a beguiler with like 24 or 26 int, I could pretty much make anything my bitch, and I could sneak exceptionally well as a tiny character. The warblade, other than rolling abysmally, was quite a force to be reckoned with. Or, he would have been, had the druid's full plate wearing bison been almost as good as him (better on a charge), then the druid would summon a lion, which was just as good as the warblade, then she would turn into a leopard with a bunch of buffs, and pounce, and be almost as good the warblade. Before the warblade upgraded from fighter, a druid was literally 3 fighters- her animal companion, herself, and a summoned lion.

Up until then, I had never seen a druid played "right", and always thought that people were over exaggerating the strength of druids.

But this druid had natural spell, spell focus: conjuration, augmented summoning and was a half elf, and she was kicking so much ass! And it was her first D&D campaign, ever.

Droods rule. Too bad they're such a stupid concept. :smallmad:

[Eldariel]

Droods rule. Too bad they're such a stupid concept. :smallmad:

These are not the Druids you're looking for.