Would'nt spellcasters suck

[Origomar]

Im trying to get into dnd and ive noticed that alot of people here beleive that casters are god-like compared to non magical classes in 3.5e. but(not including druids) wouldnt they suck in a longetivity situation like a war or something because of the limited amount of spells they can use.

i mean they may be able to plow through 100 or so people but once they run out arent they kind of screwed?

you can restore health and such with potions but from what im aware of you cant restore amount of spells cast perday.

[AslanCross]

D&D is run by a DM, who is usually supposed to only throw 4 encounters of the appropriate level at the players per day. Let's face it---melee characters of any sort run out of resources too. (HP, potions, magic item uses)

Furthermore, there are wands, scrolls, staves, and other items that casters can use to go beyond their spells prepared/spell slots per day.

At low levels, it's quite conceivable for a wizard to quickly run out of spells. Past level 5, I've never seen any caster run out of spells.

[arguskos]

Yes, that is the best way to run down casters: run them out of spells, put on the pressure so they can't stop to recharge for whatever reason. Of course, there are ways to get around this with certain spells. :smallannoyed:

[Doc Roc]

In extremely long-term battles, yes, it is in theory possible for a traditionalist blaster or war-mage style caster to run out. It comes up, and it's inevitable in certain very long-term situations, like a city siege. But cleverness goes a long time when you can throw that much of it around that deftly.

The fundamental issue is that a wizard need not cast every round to have an implacable and immense effect on the motion of combat. Moreso if you are a wizard built for war, such as one of my more.... esoteric war weaver builds.

[Origomar]

Are there any situations where say a fighter, monk, or ranger are more useful in combat than a wizard? also why does no one love sorcs x.x?

[Dagren]

In extremely long-term battles, yes, it is in theory possible for a traditionalist blaster or war-mage style caster to run out. It comes up, and it's inevitable in certain very long-term situations, like a city siege. But cleverness goes a long time when you can throw that much of it around that deftly.Why would you not be able to prepare more spells if you have a thick stone wall between you and the bad guys? In a long-term siege, I would have thought that rare material components would be a more pressing concern.

[Waspinator]

Feat from Complete Mage: Fiery Burst. Burn things all day, at will.

[AslanCross]

Another thing to consider: There are certain spells that can shut down an encounter completely. Spells like black tentacles, solid fog, and several others. If a Wizard is able to shut down monsters with that one spell and let his friends do the rest, he's doing it right.

I've seen this happen a lot in my games. A horde of 12+ enemies advances on the party, which finds itself cornered. The wizard casts black tentacles. All of the Medium-sized enemies in the horde are grappled (spell has a rather large radius). Within a 3 rounds, the tentacles strangle the life out of them.
By this time, the paladin wearing heavy armor is still 10 feet away from the nearest enemy, not having swung his greatsword once during this encounter.

The ability of casters to either use only a single spell to end an encounter or to make a single casting last the WHOLE DAY, combined with the tactical options that their spells provide make casters the hands-down supreme classes in D&D.

Not to say that they can't be played in a fair and sensitive manner to the other players.


Are there any situations where say a fighter, monk, or ranger are more useful in combat than a wizard? also why does no one love sorcs x.x?

The safe answer is no. The wizard can theoretically do anything they can do better. At Level 20, the wizard can shapechange into a DRAGON, which would have better attack bonuses and damage AND mobility than a fighter, monk and ranger combined, as well as a bunch of attacks that are extremely likely to hit.

Sorcerers are also pretty good, make no mistake, but their spell lists are far more limited than the wizards (which can learn arcane spells from scrolls) and clerics/druids (which KNOW ALL THE SPELLS THEY CAN CAST).

Again, these classes can be played in a fair way that is helpful to other players instead of making them feel useless. It all boils down to a general agreement between players that this is a game, it is for fun, and having fun at someone else's expense is not permissible.

[Sinfire Titan]

Are there any situations where say a fighter, monk, or ranger are more useful in combat than a wizard? also why does no one love sorcs x.x?

Only when the caster is unconscious for some reason.


And Sorcerers are considered second-banana to Wizards due to limited spells known and no actual class features beyond 1st level.

[Flickerdart]

Rope Trick and Magnificent Mansion alone make all attempts to last out a Wizard useless, since you can't get him once inside. Even if those are banned, the Wizard still has a massive supply of spells. Once you realize that he doesn't have to get one off every round, instead choosing to let a summon or a Concentration spell do the work, the Wizard's longevity skyrockets. Sure, if you throw encounters way above CR at the Wizard, he might have a problem, but even then, he'll do fine.

There are literally no cases where a Fighter or Monk can serve better in combat. If the guy's all alone in the middle of a featureless plain surrounded by foes, a Wizard can fly up and rain death. If he can't, then a Barbarian might do better, using his HP to last out as he violates the opposing forces with an axe. Barbarians are hard to kill without magic. With magic...the best caster killer is a better caster.

[Animefunkmaster]

I agree with the above and the original post, a caster (generally blasters) who aren't prepared for longevity will get bogged down after defeating large numbers of enemies.

However, take those number of enemies defeated and throw them against a non caster and the difference becomes apparent. Its not that the caster can't do as well as non casters after there spells are run down, its how much more amazing they do when they use there spells.

Otherwise guides show that smart casters have a large number of tactics that make them superior in long term situations then non casters (long term buffs, area of affects that last, battle field manipulation, or buffing/polymorphing up and being a more competent threat then non casters). I say smart, but really it depends on the players play style. You can have a mechanically superior class, but wastefully use up your resources and run low on spells.

[Dervag]

Im trying to get into dnd and ive noticed that alot of people here beleive that casters are god-like compared to non magical classes in 3.5e. but(not including druids) wouldnt they suck in a longetivity situation like a war or something because of the limited amount of spells they can use.

i mean they may be able to plow through 100 or so people but once they run out arent they kind of screwed?

you can restore health and such with potions but from what im aware of you cant restore amount of spells cast perday.You'd be hard pressed to find a melee warrior who could plow through a hundred enemies without using up enormous amounts of healing items and/or spells cast by their friends.

Throw enough powerful enemies at any D&D character of any class and they'll go down. The only difference is that with effective casters, it's an all-or-nothing thing: they're all-powerful until they run out of steam. And it can take them a long time to run out of steam, because the guys who wrote the spell lists didn't think everything through very well.

Whereas with conventional 'warrior' classes, the process of wearing down is gradual, and mostly revolves around burning up magic items and hit points faster than they can recover them.

[Deepblue706]

There are literally no cases where a Fighter or Monk can serve better in combat.

I think that's a misleading statement. If you were to say, "Played to their best standard, there are no cases where a Fighter or Monk serve better...", I think that'd be a harder argument to counter.

[Eldariel]

Im trying to get into dnd and ive noticed that alot of people here beleive that casters are god-like compared to non magical classes in 3.5e. but(not including druids) wouldnt they suck in a longetivity situation like a war or something because of the limited amount of spells they can use.

i mean they may be able to plow through 100 or so people but once they run out arent they kind of screwed?

you can restore health and such with potions but from what im aware of you cant restore amount of spells cast perday.

Depends on the level and how strong characters you are building. Mostly though, high-level casters' magic is so immensely powerful that just few spells will turn the tide of the war; what does your spells per day matter when a single Control Winds can kill thousands? And you need an equivalent level caster to counteract such effects.

On low levels though, casters aren't used for the whole fight; just like other units, they're deployed in some of the skirmishes. You don't just deploy your entire army for every fight though. Also, as for Potions, those are expensive and will run out quickly; a fighter won't last more than few struggles until he needs a week of bedrest to be back in shape. In fact, the best way to get the constant healing is to have a caster around.


On the other note (as I mentioned about building strong characters), all three casters you named can indeed last all day. Better yet, they can make the whole party last whole day. A Cleric can use Divine Metamagic [Complete Divine]: Persistent Spell [Complete Arcane] and use his magic to become a godlike warrior. Thanks to Divine Metamagic, all of them last 24 hours. More importantly, he can cast Mass Lesser Vigor (3rd level spell; available to level 5 Clerics)/Vigorous Circle Persisted, which gives all the affected troops Fast Healing 1. In other words, infinite free healing all day long, for the caster and his friends.

A level 5+ Druid can become a godlike warrior right out of the box (Wildshape) and his pal is another. All the relevant Druid-spells last so long that with application of Extend Spell, you can quickly make them last all day, or at least 12 hours. Simply, Druid and Cleric can be like Fighters, except better and have an almost infinite reserve of HP to go with it.

Wizards, while they shouldn't directly be participating all day (unless you build a Wizard around something enabling mass Persisting, but as that pretty much means "Incantatrix", we'll just say it can't be done), they can use spells like Planar Binding, Control Weather, etc. to have longterm effects over a large area and to keep "contributing" all the time. Also, spells such as Cloudkill, Wall of Fire, generic Walls, etc. can be extremely lethal in war situations, so a prepared Wizard doesn't really need to burn through his spell slots every combat; just use as much power as needed and you should be set to last.


But on low levels, their endurance is indeed a problem. If you somehow give Fighters infinite Potions, they can indeed last longer than an average member of any of the caster-classes (DMM: Persist Clerics not withstanding...and, well Druid's animal companion is still a better Fighter than the Fighter).

If it's an all-day adventure, not a war, then the low level Wizard will indeed run out provided the opposition is strong enough to warrant him casting spells (then again, without the Wizard the party would probably be dead in that case). Although reserve feats still give Wizard tools to contribute all day. It's just that he'll merely be another archer for the party at that point which sucks.


So yeah, this holds true to the midlevels in some cases, but on higher levels, pretty much all casters have so much gas that running them out with anything but big caster vs. caster fights is extremely hard.

[Doc Roc]

Why would you not be able to prepare more spells if you have a thick stone wall between you and the bad guys? In a long-term siege, I would have thought that rare material components would be a more pressing concern.

I meant across the day of a siege.

[Doc Roc]

I think that's a misleading statement. If you were to say, "Played to their best standard, there are no cases where a Fighter or Monk serve better...", I think that'd be a harder argument to counter.

This is not true. There's a reason there are parties. I include one full-on non-caster in most of my party build outs. The reason casters get so much talk is because they're really more fun to play. More elegant, more interesting, more powerful.

[Flickerdart]

I think that's a misleading statement. If you were to say, "Played to their best standard, there are no cases where a Fighter or Monk serve better...", I think that'd be a harder argument to counter.
That's the merit of the player, and not the class. Played at the same standard, a Wizard is always better than a Fighter or Monk. Even with pretty much no optimization, a Wizard can destroy the most optimized Fighter or Monk.

Sure, if the Wizard player thinks Magic Missile is the best spell and the Fighter player is an Ubercharger, then the Fighter is better. But that's the players' faults, not the merit of the classes.

[RebelRogue]

At low levels, it's quite conceivable for a wizard to quickly run out of spells. Past level 5, I've never seen any caster run out of spells.
I've managed to burn just about every spell of a level 7-ish gestalt Favored Soul/Bard in the course of a gaming day! I don't even think we had that many combat encounters, but I also blew a lot of spells to buff characters several times for some sneaky action and other stuff. I still had a few wands left, but they were CLW. No, it wasn't terribly optimized either... :smallsmile:

[Jack_Simth]

Are there any situations where say a fighter, monk, or ranger are more useful in combat than a wizard?
Yes there are. They're just boring and not very common.

However, they pretty much require limitless healing (DMM(Persistent Spell) cleric using the Mass Lesser Vigor or Vigorous Circle; the Summon Elemental reserve feat and a Magic Item Compendium Vampiric dagger; a lot of characters with Improved Familiar (Formian worker); a party of undead or people with the Tomb-Tainted Soul feat with a Dread Necromancer, a few others), and a LOT of mooks spread out over a very long period of time.

See, if you've got effectively infinite healing (there's a few different ways to do actual unlimited non-combat healing), and run a LOT of combat encounters (we're talking somewhere between 10 and 50, depending on the level of the party), with some constraints to simply prevent the Wizard from going "Extended Rope Trick - see you tomorrow" (DM fiat is one way, but far from the best - a defensive mission [Defend X from attack - if you vanish for eight hours to replenish spells, you lose because you're not there to defend X from attack] or a timed mission [the sacrificial ceremony is in three days! You must reach the ceremonial room at the center of this ten level planar-travel blocked, adamantine wall dungeon by then to save the princess! - sure, you can Dispel the Planar Block, but only local sections, I'm afraid...] do it much better - there's a few others, but those are the simplest to discuss), then classes where their only limit is their hit points (most Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, and Rogue builds) are much more valuable than are classes who will run out of appreciably useful effects on the twentieth encounter of the day.

also why does no one love sorcs x.x?
Lots of people do. It's just that, in general, they're less useful than Wizards.

Feat from Complete Mage: Fiery Burst. Burn things all day, at will.
Don't forget Summon Elemental and Minor Shapeshift! But yes, Reserve feats are very handy for those long grinds.


Rope Trick and Magnificent Mansion alone make all attempts to last out a Wizard useless, since you can't get him once inside. Even if those are banned,
You don't do it by banning the effect; you do it by making it a really bad idea to retreat like that.

the Wizard still has a massive supply of spells.
See above; this depends - massively - on level, on how available healing is, and how many encounters you get.

Once you realize that he doesn't have to get one off every round, instead choosing to let a summon or a Concentration spell do the work, the Wizard's longevity skyrockets. Sure, if you throw encounters way above CR at the Wizard, he might have a problem, but even then, he'll do fine.

There are literally no cases where a Fighter or Monk can serve better in combat.
That's not completely accurate; see above. Even with Reserve feats, in an unlimited healing situation with an absurd number of mooks spread out over a lot of encounters, the Leap Attack/Shock Trooper/Lion Totem Barbarian charger with a two-handed weapon (doable at 6th level, incidentally) will do much better on the fiftieth encounter of the day. Especially if all the encounters are with a handful of Monks when you've got a ceiling in your way.

If the guy's all alone in the middle of a featureless plain surrounded by foes, a Wizard can fly up and rain death. If he can't, then a Barbarian might do better, using his HP to last out as he violates the opposing forces with an axe. Barbarians are hard to kill without magic. With magic...the best caster killer is a better caster.
The point of this is not to kill the caster. The point of this is to exhaust the caster enough that the Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger/Paladin/Monk/whatever is more useful in the campaign.

[nightwyrm]

If you're going through all these trouble, might as well just ban casters.

[Flickerdart]

The point of this is not to kill the caster. The point of this is to exhaust the caster enough that the Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger/Paladin/Monk/whatever is more useful in the campaign.
I understand that. But in order to make a caster do that, you're gonna have to throw lots of foes at him...enough to outright kill the Fighter before you even dent the Wizard's HP.

[Dagren]

I meant across the day of a siege.Ah, you meant an assault on the walls, like at Azure City. Well, in that case it's not really any different from any other prolonged battle, is it? Well, with the possible exception that you get an advantage if you're the defenders, so you might not need so many spells. Might also make good uses of the wall spells more likely (don't try to tell me that a well placed prismatic wall at the right time might not have completely reversed the aforementioned Battle of Azure City). Both these favour the defender of course, so if you are the attacker your case for a siege might work. I can't see why it would be harder on a defending wizard, though.

[Tengu_temp]

In a war the wizard summons several large and tough creatures, buffs his allies, throws several AoE crowd control spells and then spends the rest of the day in his Leomund's Tiny Hut, sipping prime wine he got from the Elemental Plane of Alcohol while the battle wins itself.

[Jack_Simth]

I understand that. But in order to make a caster do that, you're gonna have to throw lots of foes at him...enough to outright kill the Fighter before you even dent the Wizard's HP.
... and apparently you missed the concept of spreading them out, and needing effectively infinite healing available in order to make the circumstance under which the party Fighter is more valuable than the Party Wizard (a circumstance that doesn't completely nerf the Wizard by way of permanent anti-magic fields or some such, anyway). If those two criteria are met (and there is at least one route that can have it set up from level 1, believe it or not, although it requires a nongood party, a specific class by one player, and a specific feat on every character), then the Fighter can be more valuable than the Wizard.

[Ninetail]

Im trying to get into dnd and ive noticed that alot of people here beleive that casters are god-like compared to non magical classes in 3.5e. but(not including druids) wouldnt they suck in a longetivity situation like a war or something because of the limited amount of spells they can use.


No. Because a caster can use his last few spells to retreat to safety, where he can prepare a new batch.

Sure, he may not be active all day long, but he'll be more effective in five minutes than the fighter will be in five days.

If he's somehow prevented from leaving? With the right spells, he can still be effective all day -- and do far more than that fighter.

About the only way to make the fighter better than the caster is to set down a huge antimagic field over the whole thing. Or arbitrarily blast the caster with lightning from the gods. Otherwise, the non-caster simply cannot compete, in a mid- to high-level game. And pity the poor non-caster if it's an epic-level game.

[Flickerdart]

... and apparently you missed the concept of spreading them out, and needing effectively infinite healing available in order to make the circumstance under which the party Fighter is more valuable than the Party Wizard (a circumstance that doesn't completely nerf the Wizard by way of permanent anti-magic fields or some such, anyway). If those two criteria are met (and there is at least one route that can have it set up from level 1, believe it or not, although it requires a nongood party, a specific class by one player, and a specific feat on every character), then the Fighter can be more valuable than the Wizard.
Yeah, I did miss that part. You mean the Dread Necro/Tomb Tainted Soul trick? Then yes, if the Fighter's primary resource is getting free replenishment and the Wizard's is not, after twenty or so combats the Fighter is going to start being better.

[Berserk Monk]

Im trying to get into dnd and ive noticed that alot of people here beleive that casters are god-like compared to non magical classes in 3.5e. but(not including druids) wouldnt they suck in a longetivity situation like a war or something because of the limited amount of spells they can use.

i mean they may be able to plow through 100 or so people but once they run out arent they kind of screwed?

you can restore health and such with potions but from what im aware of you cant restore amount of spells cast perday.

That's why you take a prestige class that gives you other stuff and lets you progress in spellcasting levels, and if a DM is sending you out to any huge battles before you qualify for at least one of these classes you like, something is wrong.

[Logalmier]

At low levels this can sometimes be a problem. But as GM's usually don't throw big battles out there, it's not really an issue. Besides, once a caster hits high level, there's almost nothing that can threaten them. A high level wizard isn't there to do grunt work, he's there to cast widened Horrid Wiltings from the air.

[Demons_eye]

This is not true. There's a reason there are parties. I include one full-on non-caster in most of my party build outs. The reason casters get so much talk is because they're really more fun to play. More elegant, more interesting, more powerful.

I find this just not true. People can pick any class for any cause. I like to play a monk more then a wizard cuz to play a good wizard you have to book keep. Some people like this I dont, I like to play monks/fighter cuz you can create the scene (I use my hand to chop the mans arm and then bring my left foot to his head or I slash my sword at his chest in a primal rage) But with catsers you really only get to wave your hand(IMO).

[The Glyphstone]

Some people like this I dont, I like to play monks/fighter cuz you can create the scene (I use my hand to chop the mans arm and then bring my left foot to his head or I slash my sword at his chest in a primal rage) But with catsers you really only get to wave your hand(IMO).

Howbout:

With a wave of one wizened hand, sparks began to dance between my fingertips as I whisper the first words of the spell in ancient Draconic. Another pass of the hand across my chest surrounds it in a crackling white glow as my spell builds to a crescendo - then then the last word of the spell, spoken in a hissing snap that mimics the thunderous crack of the lightning bolt as it leaps forward and scythes through the row of monsters in the corridor.

Makes waving a hand sound pretty cool IMO.:smallbiggrin:

[Brom]

Isn't there something to be said for the idea that, even with Reserve feats, a five foot burst of flame isn't going to be as effectual as just casting the spell? But if you do, you tap out. So you're not necessarily going through more longevity.

Planar Bindings get around some of this. But the bindings could be killed - it might not be likely, but it's possible.

Battlefield controls are nice, but what's to stop an enemy from going around a cloudkill? I mean, how many times are enemies just going to rush straight through a Cloudkill spell?

If you do too much battlefield control, intelligent enemies will just back off, but then you haven't killed your enemies, you've burned a load of spells to scare enemies away from your morass of cloudkills.

Wizards still decide matches, but I don't feel they render the rest of the party useless. That party is there to do most of the killing, skill checks, and healing. If you play smart, you'll buff them and debuff your enemies. If you were taken out of the equation, life would be harder, but they'd still be doing killing, skill checks, and healing, just with a smaller bonus. It might be small enough to get them killed, but the point remains.

It seems so very situational. You can prepare broadly but not have enough - if your group is ambushed and you do an Evard's Black Tentacles, but you prepared to have one spell to win every type of encounter possible, and you get ambushed again, you can't just Tentacle again.

If you do have two tentacles, you might not have that needed Scrying or Arcane Eye spell to safely probe the enemy defenses, or that Dimension Door that allows the party to escape a sour situation or bypass an enemy line of defense.

In either case, the party isn't useless. You are a valid, functional piece of it that serves an important purpose, but you aren't the sole reason the party is successful.

It just seems like basic DM'ing. You throw 16 Orcs at a party, if the party has a Wizard of higher than 5th level, you should know he has debilitating AoE options that make a straight forward 'plow the enemy crowd' fight pretty simple. That's not a challenge, that's a reason to cast a spell. Those same Orcs where 8 charge and another 8 hang back to see what happens with ranged weapons trained on the first person to make the battle turning move is a good encounter.

And if you don't think Orcs are smart enough for that, then maybe it's time to stop using Orcs to challenge the party?

It doesn't seem like some fantastic DM'ing there, just pretty elementary. (And I consider myself a fairly awful DM.)

[Demons_eye]

In my head I just see your hands glow, some sounds and welll to me thats not that impressive. But maybe its cuz I grew up watching Bruce lee and what not, not reading Token.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Are there any situations where say a fighter, monk, or ranger are more useful in combat than a wizard? also why does no one love sorcs x.x?

Some people (http://www.google.com/url?q=http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php%3Fp%3D18692164&ei=XVosSoXWOuKytwfo_sS1CA&sa=X&oi=spellmeleon_result&resnum=2&ct=result&usg=AFQjCNG1_e5MTSytuHn3wgrnHOxyVSFrrA) love sorcerers (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1184568)


I find this just not true. People can pick any class for any cause. I like to play a monk more then a wizard cuz to play a good wizard you have to book keep. Some people like this I dont, I like to play monks/fighter cuz you can create the scene (I use my hand to chop the mans arm and then bring my left foot to his head or I slash my sword at his chest in a primal rage) But with catsers you really only get to wave your hand(IMO).
There's also the part where you rearrange reality to suit your whim.

[Aneantir]

Howbout:

With a wave of one wizened hand, sparks began to dance between my fingertips as I whisper the first words of the spell in ancient Draconic. Another pass of the hand across my chest surrounds it in a crackling white glow as my spell builds to a crescendo - then then the last word of the spell, spoken in a hissing snap that mimics the thunderous crack of the lightning bolt as it leaps forward and scythes through the row of monsters in the corridor.

Makes waving a hand sound pretty cool IMO.:smallbiggrin:

Agreed. Hand waving is incredibly cool when a simple gesture instantly summons mighty creatures to do your bidding, causes destructive blasts of fire, or reduces your enemies to nothing but ash.

[Jack_Simth]

Yeah, I did miss that part. You mean the Dread Necro/Tomb Tainted Soul trick? Then yes, if the Fighter's primary resource is getting free replenishment and the Wizard's is not, after twenty or so combats the Fighter is going to start being better.
Right. And there's at least three different ways to arrange it (probably more). Even better, both the Wizard and the Fighter get the same thing replenished - their HP.

As I mentioned in the post where I was spelling this out, it's not common, and it's boring. But it also successfully shows that "the wizard is always better" isn't true - even ignoring wide Anti-magic fields.

[Kemper Boyd]

Spellcasters aren't as hot whenever you put a time constraint on doing stuff. This, for some reason, is mostly ignored by many 3E players who think there's always time to rest and recharge the Cast-O-Matic.

[The Glyphstone]

In my head I just see your hands glow, some sounds and welll to me thats not that impressive. But maybe its cuz I grew up watching Bruce lee and what not, not reading Token.

The irony is that Tolkein sucks at describing his magic spells...outside of Gandalf chucking a fireball in the Hobbit, the most overt magic in the books is a couple of glowy light spells.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Spellcasters aren't as hot whenever you put a time constraint on doing stuff. This, for some reason, is mostly ignored by many 3E players who think there's always time to rest and recharge the Cast-O-Matic.

Well, when you can create a personal demiplane in which times flows faster than in the Prime Material.... you do have time to rest and recharge.

[Origomar]

Do alot of DM's create storylines/fight scenes where things are a little more anti caster so it evens things out abit? like have to inflitrate a fortress that is surrouned by an antimagic barrier or a magic dampening barrier?

[Kemper Boyd]

Well, when you can create a personal demiplane in which times flows faster than in the Prime Material.... you do have time to rest and recharge.

Only if the GM allows something like that, which was my point.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Keep in mind everyone needs healing magic, so you can't have the party spend too much time fighting in an AMF.

[lsfreak]

Do alot of DM's create storylines/fight scenes where things are a little more anti caster so it evens things out abit? like have to inflitrate a fortress that is surrouned by an antimagic barrier or a magic dampening barrier?
The problem with this kind of situation is that the melee people are crippled as well, not just the casters. Everyone is highly dependent on magic items, and stripping that from the characters makes everything much more difficult.

A standard example is that if you have a giant dragon with antimagic, the wizard teleports away before the dragon gets close and the melee get chased down and eaten.

[Brom]

[quote]Do alot of DM's create storylines/fight scenes where things are a little more anti caster so it evens things out abit? like have to inflitrate a fortress that is surrouned by an antimagic barrier or a magic dampening barrier?/[quote]

That just seems like bad style, although yes, my Wizard in a campaign I play recently had to play in an area where there was an antimagic field. It would tick off every 30-60 seconds and you would have to make a difficult caster level check or losing the spell, thus rendering anything with a duration useless (but making the short term blasting spells I like to pack quite useful.)

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Only if the GM allows something like that, which was my point.

Nothing in your original statement led me to believe that was the case.

[elliott20]

meh, I've allowed players to take feats to change up the look of their spell castings before.

one player had his wizard cast by smoking his pipe. All of his spells would manifest through the smoke he blew out of his mouth. having shackles formed out literally out of thin air can be a little jarring to look at.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

meh, I've allowed players to take feats to change up the look of their spell castings before.

one player had his wizard cast by smoking his pipe. All of his spells would manifest through the smoke he blew out of his mouth. having shackles formed out literally out of thin air can be a little jarring to look at.

But smoking is bad for you! It's a poison which would have made the wizard pass fort. saves vs cancer and possibly disrupted spellcasting! Think of the children! :smalltongue:

[Uec]

Another factor that people haven't mentioned

Scry 'n die

Even the best army doesn't work very well without a centralised leadership - so, unless the general of the opposing army are insanely powerful by himself (significanty more so than any member of the party), he can be killed easily if a caster with teleport is around, something like the following series of spells should do it

1: Scry to determine if this tactic is possible
2: Cast every single buff that you know on the most appropriate members of your party
3: scry to ensure that the big fighter can be set dwn within 5 feet of the enemy general
4: 'port
5: Surprise round spent casting mass hold person/black tentacles or other control spells - the fighter you rought with you hacks everything that makes it's willsave to pieces
6: 'port ut

That took around 1 minut to do, at most, and the opposing army is now without leadership - and the wizard can still cast fly/overland flight + protection from arrows and kill half the enemy army with AoE spells

[Elminster1]

The simple fact is, casters are, just more powerful. It's the nature of magic, it just does more.

I've played with jerk DM's in the past who are prejudice against casters, and try and put unrealistic constraints, lack of magic items/guilds/etc, but it's rather pointless. Because, unless the DM is going to ban 75% of Core, your just going to be able to do what your cating class can do, regardless.

[Brom]

Except if I'm in command of an army, I am aware that I am a target, and my first desire is going to be to turn that on it's head. Having you deliver your party to me sounds awesome.

Step 1: Hide an honor guard. Some set up tents that don't let the shadows of those inside should do nicely.
Step 2: Have a horse ready.
Step 3: Be dressed in platemail - preferably Mithril.
Step 4: Spread my men out and keep them initially out of the line of sight
Step Five: Have a whistle on hand
Step Six: Instruct everyone to come out and kick the crap out of the people who showed up while I ride off.

That's just a simple setup. I could get more elaborate, like putting a ballista a few hundred feet away aimed in this general direction. Again in a tent.

Protection from Arrows is nice, but will it stop ballista's? =P

[Origomar]

So essentially...

1. see where the general is

2. make bloodthirsty 7 foot tall half orc barbarian even more bloodthirsty and godlike

3. teleport to general and put red cape on him

4. ???

5. profit

[Flickerdart]

Protection from Arrows is nice, but will it stop ballista's? =P
Yeah, it does. 10/magic against all ranged weapons.

[Demons_eye]

The simple fact is, casters are, just more powerful. It's the nature of magic, it just does more. I've played with jerk DM's in the past who are prejudice against casters, and try and put unrealistic constraints, lack of magic items/guilds/etc, but it's rather pointless.

If magic is so powerful then should there not be a lack of it or whats to stop every other high Int casters thats insane to scry and die the kings of the kindoms and take control.

[Flickerdart]

If magic is so powerful then should there not be a lack of it or whats to stop every other high Int casters thats insane to scry and die the kings of the kindoms and take control.
They do. All the kings that are still alive are the ones smart enough to ward against it.

[Brom]

I know that it's DR 10. Ten points is pretty solid.

But it's a BALLISTA.

You put holes in BOATS. It was the predecessor to the CANNON. It is a SIEGE weapon on par with a catapult, simply with a different purpose.

I'd say that a weapon like that does 4d12 damage a shot. Easy. And ignores hardness when not encountering stone or steel.

So average of....26 damage a hit? Minus 10?

Not impressive. Still. It was the first thing I could think of without resorting to magic.

Although if I can get an army, why the hell do I not have a caster high enough to cast Dispel Magic? O.O

[Flickerdart]

I know that it's DR 10. Ten points is pretty solid.

But it's a BALLISTA.

You put holes in BOATS. It was the predecessor to the CANNON. It is a SIEGE weapon on par with a catapult, simply with a different purpose.

I'd say that a weapon like that does 4d12 damage a shot. Easy. And ignores hardness when not encountering stone or steel.

So average of....26 damage a hit? Minus 10?

Not impressive. Still. It was the first thing I could think of without resorting to magic.

Although if I can get an army, why the hell do I not have a caster high enough to cast Dispel Magic? O.O
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness#siegeEngines
A Ballista is a Huge Heavy Crossbow and deals 3d8 damage, 13.5 on average. DR 10 is plenty to make the damage irrelevant.

[Origomar]

If magic is so powerful then should there not be a lack of it or whats to stop every other high Int casters thats insane to scry and die the kings of the kindoms and take control.

Because as Elan would say that wouldnt make a very good plot :p

[Demons_eye]

Naw I dont buy it. Read/seen alot of over throws not using magic. Wizard uses reduce person, mass on his mercs, comand the kings adviser/who ever can get him into the thrown room, gives the chest of reduce'd mercs then chancles it kills every one. Fails tellys out then trys again.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Step 1: Hide an honor guard. Some set up tents that don't let the shadows of those inside should do nicely.
Step 2: Have a horse ready.
Step 3: Be dressed in platemail - preferably Mithril.
Step 4: Spread my men out and keep them initially out of the line of sight
Step Five: Have a whistle on hand
Step Six: Instruct everyone to come out and kick the crap out of the people who showed up while I ride off.


That one I don't get.

[Jack_Simth]

Another factor that people haven't mentioned

Scry 'n die

Even the best army doesn't work very well without a centralised leadership - so, unless the general of the opposing army are insanely powerful by himself (significanty more so than any member of the party), he can be killed easily if a caster with teleport is around, something like the following series of spells should do it

1: Scry to determine if this tactic is possible
2: Cast every single buff that you know on the most appropriate members of your party
3: scry to ensure that the big fighter can be set dwn within 5 feet of the enemy general
4: 'port
5: Surprise round spent casting mass hold person/black tentacles or other control spells - the fighter you rought with you hacks everything that makes it's willsave to pieces
6: 'port ut

That took around 1 minut to do, at most, and the opposing army is now without leadership - and the wizard can still cast fly/overland flight + protection from arrows and kill half the enemy army with AoE spells
Unless, of course, your opponent is capable of combining False Vision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/falseVision.htm) with Detect Scrying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectScrying.htm), in which case, you end up porting into a situation of your opponents choosing.

Or maybe your opponent has Mind Blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindBlank.htm). Or Nondetection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nondetection.htm). Or Mage's Private Sanctum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesPrivateSanctum.htm). Or Forbiddance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forbiddance.htm). Or maybe just a really good Will save. Or maybe some SR. Or maybe you're just not quite high enough level for the 5th level spell Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleport.htm) to be useful. Or maybe you don't have any idea who the general actually is, and so can't use Scrying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scrying.htm) on him in the first place. Or maybe the guy you *think* is the general is just a figurehead for a nearby rogue. Or maybe there is some Lead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#scrying) in the way, blocking your scrying. Or maybe it's a well-organized army with a clear chain of command, so your assassination tactics are only a minor setback to your opponents. Oh yes, and all of the above is completely Core, and at that, there's quite a few methods I haven't mentioned.

There's so many ways to foil scry&die it's not even funny. Some of them will lead you directly into prepared traps.

[Emy]

Protection from Arrows is nice, but will it stop ballista's? =P

Protection from Arrows is DR 10/magic against ranged weapons. So while it will not stop ballistae, it will reduce their damage.

So your secret weapon is dealing 3d8 damage per shot. With two people operating it (one reloading, one firing), it fires once every two rounds. After protection from arrows, that's an average of 1.75 damage per round.

Edit: Whoops, sorry. SRD says a ballista is typically crewed by one person, so make that average be 1.16 damage per round.

[Origomar]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness#siegeEngines
A Ballista is a Huge Heavy Crossbow and deals 3d8 damage, 13.5 on average. DR 10 is plenty to make the damage irrelevant.

it seems like it should do more damage than that. this may not be an incredibley valid arguement but IRL if you get hit with a ballista your basically done, i mean it would go strait through you.

[Dixieboy]

If magic is so powerful then should there not be a lack of it or whats to stop every other high Int casters thats insane to scry and die the kings of the kindoms and take control.
Depending on the setting that indeed happens.

That's how the rulers are decided in Thay :smalltongue:

[Demons_eye]

it seems like it should do more damage than that. this may not be an incredibley valid arguement but IRL if you get hit with a ballista your basically done, i mean it would go strait through you.

With Dr/ It dosent mean that you get hit. The way I see it is that when it hits the spell it breaks and a few splinters fly past hiting you.

[The Glyphstone]

it seems like it should do more damage than that. this may not be an incredibley valid arguement but IRL if you get hit with a ballista your basically done, i mean it would go strait through you.

Falling from the top of a 10-mile high cliff should also kill you, but by D&D rules, it only does 20d6 damage, which a sufficiently high-level barbarian can take 2 or 3 times over. The rules are just weird like that.

[Origomar]

With Dr/ It dosent mean that you get hit. The way I see it is that when it hits the spell it breaks and a few splinters fly past hiting you.

i mean the actuall damage of the ballista, being able to hit generic soldier and him living.

[Demons_eye]

Again that does not mean it has to hit them, maybe it hit near them and clumps of dirt or rocks damge them. But thats my veiw trying to make sense of the rules.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Roman Legionnaire's armor could have allowed for survival of a ballista hit, albiet with sever injuries and a high likelihood of death. Or so I hear.

[Dagren]

i mean the actuall damage of the ballista, being able to hit generic soldier and him living.How many hp do you think a generic soldier has?!? 3d8 should easily be enough to kill a level 1 warrior.

[Flickerdart]

it seems like it should do more damage than that. this may not be an incredibley valid arguement but IRL if you get hit with a ballista your basically done, i mean it would go strait through you.
That damage is enough to kill people up to level 3 pretty much for certain. And people higher than that are very rare.

[Origomar]

hmm maybe the generic soldiers i fought when i played arent so generic O.o

[Flickerdart]

hmm maybe the generic soldiers i fought when i played arent so generic O.o
Well...Barbarian with 18 CON is 16 HP at 1st, and can survive the average hit. A Barbarian 1 with toughness who is Raging will take the max damage and keep standing. Hardly generic, though.

[quick_comment]

Well...Barbarian with 18 CON is 16 HP at 1st, and can survive the average hit. A Barbarian 1 with toughness who is Raging will take the max damage and keep standing. Hardly generic, though.

18 con is basically superhuman. Non-pcs dont get to have 18 con usually.

[Brom]

I think at that point it's a matter of tech. Resources will not beat higher level + magic.

It does seem like there should be more nonmagical ways of avoiding crap like that. What we have is basically lead lining and a good will save. Now it's grinding on my mind that, despite being pretty good with tactics, strategy, and games, and even having gone so far as to study game theory and read strategy books and the like, it's hard to think of good ways to mitigate the tactical effectiveness of magic against an equally tactically effective opponent.

Now I feel bad for the Dwarves I fought in my campaign. They drew us into a canyon and fought us, and they got owned by a Ranger and a Barbarian with ranks in Climb and a pair of Protection from Arrows spells because I'm an Abjurer and they had crossbows and shields with longswords. But they were still level 1, so no real hope of them outmelee'ing level 6 melee types. Cover, elevation, concealment, being spread out, at range. All of this was neutralized by two spells and party members being smart enough to invest in Climb and being good at their job - killing in melee.

The number one way of dispatching a superior melee foe is to fight him at a distance and spread out so he can't just mow through all of you in a row.

Protection from Arrows alone renders that inconceivable. Although our DM has houseruled that if you kill a Wizard, all his ongoing spell effects end. Meaning that if you get the jump on that wizard when he ports his party in and kill him quickly, his barbarian friend is in trouble.

[Gaiyamato]

How about.

One Wizard
One Walled Tower
No backup.

vs

An almost limitless hoard of Orcs!

That might work. Wizards can theoretically kick ass.
If you are worried about the power of Wizards all you need to do is ban a few rather broken and key spells and drop the magic tone of your world down a few notches. But I find that in a normal campaign where there are no "ye olde magic shope" type places then the Wizard can become very limited in what his spells and magic items are. Which can prove interesting. :)

[Flickerdart]

1. Summon a Wight.
2. Profit.
3. Profit.

[theMycon]

Are there any situations where say a fighter, monk, or ranger are more useful in combat than a wizard? also why does no one love sorcs x.x?

Kind of. Until level 5 or so, fighters handle stuff with a will save better. If dealing direct damage to one target is somehow the only solution to a problem (probably means you're not thinking hard enough or DM is bending rules for the sake of drama), fighters & barbarians stay better at it. Or, if the battlefield is set up to deny a wizard his strengths, someone who can lock them in the battlefield might be scary.

The wizard's best advantages are battlefield control, mobility, and save-or-suck/die (or, at higher levels, it's simply no-save, just suck & die; or touch-attack & suck/die). In my opinion, their importance is in that order- but my strategies tend to rely on "find a defensible spot, find an escape plan, and then deny the enemy options while they can't hurt you."

So... Mobility is kicked by extremely tight spaces & people optimized for AoO's. Save/touch attack & dies are beaten by high save/high touch AC folk (monks, swordsages) or preventing spellcasting (readied actions, mage slayer feat, Anti-magic Field). Battlefield control is... pretty hard to combat. Disjunction, AMF, and then preventing spellcasting?

So... if a wizard were in a 10x10x10 room, locked, with warded adamantine walls, which are just outside an AMF, then the wizard is at a disadvantage to someone who can just lay the smackdown on anyone who approaches (spiked chain tripper barbarian, for instance).

[Flickerdart]

So... if a wizard were in a 10x10x10 room, locked, with warded adamantine walls, which are just outside an AMF, then the wizard is at a disadvantage to someone who can just lay the smackdown on anyone who approaches (spiked chain tripper barbarian, for instance).
Invisibility, Wall of Force, Blur/Mirror Image, summons, Enervation. A Wizard can take care of himself in a confined space, and with Celerity cheese, Nerveskitter and Hummingbird, he goes first for sure.

[Brom]

There is also the simple thing of visibility. Fighting Drow in the dark while in the caverns of the Underdark, for example, could prove rather difficult.

[Dagren]

So... if a wizard were in a 10x10x10 room, locked, with warded adamantine walls, which are just outside an AMF, then the wizard is at a disadvantage to someone who can just lay the smackdown on anyone who approaches (spiked chain tripper barbarian, for instance).That's an oddly specific situation... Bonus points if you identify the quote.

[Flickerdart]

There is also the simple thing of visibility. Fighting Drow in the dark while in the caverns of the Underdark, for example, could prove rather difficult.
And your Wizard doesn't have the cantrip Light why?

[Origomar]

is it still neccesary to have a balanced group then or could you just have like 4 wizards and just destroy everything?

[Flickerdart]

is it still neccesary to have a balanced group then or could you just have like 4 wizards and just destroy everything?
Then your DM would send encounters that challenge 4 wizards. And if you have 4 Monks, your DM will send encounters that challenge 4 monks. D&D isn't an MMO, balance is mutable on a case by case basis.

[Origomar]

Then your DM would send encounters that challenge 4 wizards. And if you have 4 Monks, your DM will send encounters that challenge 4 monks. D&D isn't an MMO, balance is mutable on a case by case basis.

Good point and i guess thats why people usually have sort of balalnced groups so the encounters can be more diverse without becoming boring.

[Flickerdart]

Precisely.

When there are 3 Wizards and a Monk, or three Monks and a Wizard, that's when the system falls to its knees and cries though.

[Dagren]

Good point and i guess thats why people usually have sort of balalnced groups so the encounters can be more diverse without becoming boring.Or just not everyone wanting to play a wizard.

[Gaiyamato]

1. Summon a Wight.
2. Profit.
3. Profit.

I almost wet myself from laughing. Hazard of old age and hillariously funny situation. Though the Orcs would crush to death even a Wight.

Anything that causes panic as an aura would kick ass though ay.
Brings me right back to my Wizard/Dread Witch/Nightmare spinner build. :P


Or just not everyone wanting to play a wizard.

I have found that entire parties of spellcasters can be a hoot.
1 Druid, 1 Bard (make up for tank, cleric and rogue all at once) and the rest as wizards.

[Flickerdart]

I almost wet myself from laughing. Hazard of old age and hillariously funny situation. Though the Orcs would crush to death even a Wight.
A Wight makes more Wights, so that's ok.

[Gaiyamato]

A Wight makes more Wights, so that's ok.

It only has 26 HP and deals 1D4+1 damage per round. It's energy drain is only a DC 14 and Orcs roll 1D20+3 for the fort save to resist.
It would need to be extremely lucky to take out an Orc on the first round. Also with several orcs beating on it, it's chances of survival are very slim on the first round. Same for any spawn it makes.
However, should it survive one round, make another wight and then that wight also survives and makes another wight while the first wight is still alive, then your cooking with gass.

So I'd summon a bunch of skeletons to backup the first wight and then sit back and sip some sort of suitable cocktail.

EDIT: Actually Zombies would be better than skeletons in this case.

[Origomar]

Since its kind of in the same topic area i was also wondering if rogues are kind of the anti wizard because they can kill the wizard with sneak attacks before the wizard even knew what hit him, since they only have d4 hit dice.

[ericgrau]

Im trying to get into dnd and ive noticed that alot of people here beleive that casters are god-like compared to non magical classes in 3.5e. but(not including druids) wouldnt they suck in a longetivity situation like a war or something because of the limited amount of spells they can use.

i mean they may be able to plow through 100 or so people but once they run out arent they kind of screwed?

you can restore health and such with potions but from what im aware of you cant restore amount of spells cast perday.

Yes, this is usually the case in such a situation in real games, and then the non-casters do more. However on the theoretical side it is the habit of a lot of people to invent contrived circumstances or make over-exaggerated statements to the contrary. There are ways to mitigate the circumstances of a long battle by focusing on long term spells which aid the caster's non-caster allies.

[Gaiyamato]

Since its kind of in the same topic area i was also wondering if rogues are kind of the anti wizard because they can kill the wizard with sneak attacks before the wizard even knew what hit him, since they only have d4 hit dice.

Earth Sense.

and I belive there is a feat that means that no one can ever flank attack you and another that stops you from being flat footed.

But Earth Sense would do. Unless your rogue can fly while invisible.

[Flickerdart]

Since its kind of in the same topic area i was also wondering if rogues are kind of the anti wizard because they can kill the wizard with sneak attacks before the wizard even knew what hit him, since they only have d4 hit dice.
Yes, Rogues can do a good job of it...with UMD, and True Seeing being unable to see through a Hide check. Darkstalker means the Wizard can't use Mindsight or such...the Roughe can UMD a scroll of True Seeing. It will still be hard, and won't kill a Tippy paranoid wizard, but a well-made Rogue can give it a good shot.


It only has 26 HP and deals 1D4+1 damage per round. It's energy drain is only a DC 14 and Orcs roll 1D20+3 for the fort save to resist.
It would need to be extremely lucky to take out an Orc on the first round. Also with several orcs beating on it, it's chances of survival are very slim on the first round. Same for any spawn it makes.
However, should it survive one round, make another wight and then that wight also survives and makes another wight while the first wight is still alive, then your cooking with gass.

So I'd summon a bunch of skeletons to backup the first wight and then sit back and sip some sort of suitable cocktail.
Yes, but it sounds snappier the way I said it.

[elliott20]

the fact that you NEED to come up with these highly specific and contrived situations to even challenge a wizard already shows that there's a problem with the classes in general. What do you need to do to challenge a fighter? throw a hit point soaker at him. a wizard? you need an AMF cage, with a small 10x10x10 room, with all these bells and whistles coming with it, AND you gotta throw a time limit on how long the wizard has to do his thing. You keep this up enough you might as well say "to challenge a wizard, you have to NOT allow them to play a wizard!"

[Origomar]

Earth Sense.

and I belive there is a feat that means that no one can ever flank attack you and another that stops you from being flat footed.

But Earth Sense would do. Unless your rogue can fly while invisible.

The ever infamous flying spycrab!

[Gaiyamato]

The ever infamous flying spycrab!

ROFL

what elliot just said.

L:smallbiggrin:L

[quick_comment]

Rogues with darkstalker and properly buffed can be very good at killing mages, especially non-paranoid mages.

Unfortunately, foresight sort of kills any chance there is to get the drop on a paranoid mage.

[Flickerdart]

You keep this up enough you might as well say "to challenge a wizard, you have to NOT allow them to play a wizard!"
Erudite, Spell to Power variant. Sorcerer. Acane Swordsage. Archvist. Factotum. Chameleon. There are ways to get to that sweet, sweet Wizard spell list other than through the Wizard.

[Gaiyamato]

Erudite, Spell to Power variant. Sorcerer. Acane Swordsage. Archvist. Factotum. Chameleon. There are ways to get to that sweet, sweet Wizard spell list other than through the Wizard.

Ok, explain to me how in God's name an Archivist gets Wizard spells. lol.

[with an e]

A shadow, wraith, or spectre would probably be able to replace the wight and defeat the nearly infinite army of orcs (also creates spawn but are incorporeal, so the orcs probably can't hit them). Of course, then you end up with a nearly infinite army of incorporeal undead, who probably also want to kill you...

[Flickerdart]

Ok, explain to me how in God's name an Archivist gets Wizard spells. lol.
I'm sure there's some sort of cheese you could exploit. You can get many of the spells through domains, for one.

[tyckspoon]

Ok, explain to me how in God's name an Archivist gets Wizard spells. lol.

Archivists can learn any Divine spell if they can find a source for it (such as finding somebody who has it and collaborating with them to copy it to a scroll.) Many Wizard spells exist as Divine versions from various sources; one of the biggest is Domains. The next best is probably the Druid spell list, which has nice stuff like Foresight, Shapechange, and Wall of Fire (additionally, the Archivist can pick up some of those tasty tasy Druid-only spells.) There's also the Ranger and Paladin lists, if you can find somebody who actually took those classes far enough to have the higher-level spells. Beyond that, there's the somewhat obscure, like the Divine Bard variant and certain PrCs that grant divine spellcasting from a unique list.

Re: Wight vs. Infinite Orcs:
There's no save against suffering a negative level; the given DC is for saving against having that negative level turn permanent 24 hours later. If the Wight hits a standard orc, that orc dies. Still not a sure bet, however, since the original Wight is liable to die in a turn or two and its spawn still take 1d4 rounds to rise.. and after the first couple of spawnings, the orcs are probably going to start readying actions to behead the new spawn as soon as it stands up, which will put a stop to the whole chain.

[Dhavaer]

It only has 26 HP and deals 1D4+1 damage per round. It's energy drain is only a DC 14 and Orcs roll 1D20+3 for the fort save to resist.

The save DC doesn't matter, assuming you're using standard MM orcs, one negative level is enough to kill them, so they'll never save against it. The save DC for negative levels is to prevent permanent level loss after 24 hours, you get the negative level automatically.

[quick_comment]

The archivist can also get anyspell, which he can use to cast an arcane spell below level 3(?) and greater anyspell, which is any arcane spell below level 5(?)

[Crow]

D&D is run by a DM, who is usually supposed to only throw 4 encounters of the appropriate level at the players per day.

Absolutely wrong. I'm not sure where this myth originated, but the DMG pretty much states otherwise.

[theMycon]

That's an oddly specific situation... Bonus points if you identify the quote.
It's popped up in The Comic once, and the game my name/avatar is from, and... too many to guess. I give up.

That's kinda the point...

You have to deny them at least 2 of their 3 strengths to level the field for character classes that only have one real strength, and even then it's an even bet. You'd have to take away the third to make it a curb-stomp.

Though, as The Comic has shown, a flying creature who grapples & AMF's himself/the wizard more or less does all three, considering "the battlefield" suddenly becomes limited to "inside the arms of the dragon holding me."

[Deepblue706]

That's the merit of the player, and not the class. Played at the same standard, a Wizard is always better than a Fighter or Monk. Even with pretty much no optimization, a Wizard can destroy the most optimized Fighter or Monk.

Sure, if the Wizard player thinks Magic Missile is the best spell and the Fighter player is an Ubercharger, then the Fighter is better. But that's the players' faults, not the merit of the classes.

You said "There are literally no cases where a Fighter or Monk can serve better in combat."

There are certainly cases. You just demonstrated there's at least one. The power of a class can only be as useful as the player makes it. If a wizard fails to exploit his better options, that is a case where a Fighter or Monk can serve better in combat. Part of what allows a Wizard to be strong is his ability to choose; but if he does so poorly, he may end up signficantly weaker. Which is a case where a Fighter or Monk can serve better in combat. Which is not to say this is the same case as a Fighter choosing to attack an ally instead of an enemy; the Wizard chose a spell which is applied to the game in a reasonable fashion. Because a wizard's strength so-varies to make such broad and sweeping statements as "literally no cases" is just going to confuse people unaware of the differences between classes, at best.

[Gaiyamato]

Archivists can learn any Divine spell if they can find a source for it (such as finding somebody who has it and collaborating with them to copy it to a scroll.) Many Wizard spells exist as Divine versions from various sources; one of the biggest is Domains. The next best is probably the Druid spell list, which has nice stuff like Foresight, Shapechange, and Wall of Fire (additionally, the Archivist can pick up some of those tasty tasy Druid-only spells.) There's also the Ranger and Paladin lists, if you can find somebody who actually took those classes far enough to have the higher-level spells. Beyond that, there's the somewhat obscure, like the Divine Bard variant and certain PrCs that grant divine spellcasting from a unique list.


Yeah a Divine Bard Cohort with the scribe scroll feat would work.
Still does not explicitly give access to all Sorcerer/Wizard spells though, but it does give you a lot of them.

I wonder if there is a prestige class like UM for Divine casters. Have not found one yet. :P

[MickJay]

Casting spells and retreating to prepare new ones during a battle has a really big flaw: the wizard just made things easier for his allies for now, in a specific situation. The moment he retreats, he's unable to change anything for the next 8 hours, during which enemy's reinforcements may arrive, the enemy might reveal some reserves, the enemy general may decide to make a use of his own caster (or three) who start with trying to dispel any of the wizard's enchantments, he may order the assembly of a few extra pre-made siege machines (could be even in place of those the wizard destroyed) that could quickly breach the wall, etc, etc.

A wizard is good for delivering concentrated bursts of altering of the reality in his favour, after he's done, he's pretty much useless until he recharges - and when the battle is going on, he might not have enough time for that. When he knows the battle is going to last a longer while, the best he can do is to concentrate on strengthening his allies and hoping for the best (unless he can instantly overcome enemy's magical defences and inflict enough losses to severly cripple said enemy from the start - but as already mentioned, there are enough ways to nullify that).

[Jack_Simth]

the fact that you NEED to come up with these highly specific and contrived situations to even challenge a wizard already shows that there's a problem with the classes in general. What do you need to do to challenge a fighter? throw a hit point soaker at him. a wizard? you need an AMF cage, with a small 10x10x10 room, with all these bells and whistles coming with it, AND you gotta throw a time limit on how long the wizard has to do his thing. You keep this up enough you might as well say "to challenge a wizard, you have to NOT allow them to play a wizard!"
Well, yes, there are some balance issues with full casters at high levels.

That's not particularly the point of this discussion, though.

[quick_comment]

Casting spells and retreating to prepare new ones during a battle has a really big flaw: the wizard just made things easier for his allies for now, in a specific situation. The moment he retreats, he's unable to change anything for the next 8 hours,

Four hours, thanks to the fortifying bedroll.

And thats just why you stagger your casters to be on duty in shifts.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Isn't a bedroll 2 hours?

[MickJay]

Having more than one caster is not guaranteed, and neither is the bedroll; almost any weakness can be made irrelevant thanks to one or more magic items, other party members and/or some beneficial circumstances; this is true regardless of class and works the same for a wizard, fighter or monk.

[ShadowFighter15]

The ever infamous flying spycrab!

I just had to link to it. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54jjmzgXoiQ&fmt=22)

[Gaiyamato]

Ok I got it!
I know how to get every spell in the game on one character without too much fuss. :)

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Alternative_Source_Spell

Wizard 1
Archivist 1
Mystic Theurge 10

Obviously to advance so fast you need a way to spontaneously cast arcane spells and take the Versatile Caster feat.

For a level 12 character.
Archivist memorises all of the cleric spells as arcane spells and the wizard memorises his spells as divine versions (or whatever way it works.). Then simply scribe the arcane-divine spells in the appropriate spellbook/prayerbook. Very quickly both classes have the exact same spell list. You also no longer need to use Alternative Source Spell thus getting around the -1 caster level for such spells.
To ensure that you gain the Druid/Paladin spells simply take leadership at level 6 and get a Paladin/Druid Cohort and make sure they have scribe scroll. (Archivst copies scroll into his book, then memorise spell as it's arcane version and scribe into Wizards book.)

:D

[Yora]

A thgought that I just had:

A wizard with no buffs can quite possibly be killed with one or two good hits by a powerful melee enemy. He can cast a couple of spells to protect himself against it BUT:
During the 3 or 4 rounds it takes him to get his buffs cast, he's still very vulnerable at first, before his protection is up.
But also, if he would cast the same protective spells on a melee ally, that ally can swing around with his huge axe for the full four rounds. Maybe a fighter lacks the power of a good 4th or 5th level direct damage spell. But lets say 7 or 8 attacks that deal 10-12 points of damage sum up quite nicely. Compared to the fact, that the wizard would not have been able to deal any damage during that time.

True, by raw, there's nothing a fighter could do to stop an enemy to reach the wizard unless they are in a 5 ft. corridor, but unless all enemies are a LONG way from the caster and he has a clear shot at all of them before they reach him, I think melee support is invaluable to him.
And as the adventuring day goes on, a spellcaster has an ever smaller collections of spells to pick from and even if he doesn't run out of spells, he might easily get pressed for spells that are usefull in his current situation.

And then, there's always Dispel Magic. Even a spellcaster of some levels lower can completely destroy your whole magical defense. And at that point, a swarm of low-level critters can tear a wizard to shreds.

[Arakune]

A thgought that I just had:

A wizard with no buffs can quite possibly be killed with one or two good hits by a powerful melee enemy. He can cast a couple of spells to protect himself against it BUT:
During the 3 or 4 rounds it takes him to get his buffs cast, he's still very vulnerable at first, before his protection is up.

That's a little bit questionable, since a wizard at some reasonable level (let's say... 8?) will try to either finish the fight in one shot (dificult, but doable depending on spell selection and said enemy saves), get one very good defense spell or simply run to safety, even if it's temporary (Dimension Door away from his charge range if you are particulary unimaginative).

Either way, you should know that a good offense is the best defense in this game if you are somehow caught off guard, that's why doing sufficiente damage to a enemy spellcaster is normally better than counter-spell.

[Kaiyanwang]

That's a little bit questionable, since a wizard at some reasonable level (let's say... 8?) will try to either finish the fight in one shot (dificult, but doable depending on spell selection and said enemy saves), get one very good defense spell or simply run to safety, even if it's temporary (Dimension Door away from his charge range if you are particulary unimaginative).

Either way, you should know that a good offense is the best defense in this game if you are somehow caught off guard, that's why doing sufficiente damage to a enemy spellcaster is normally better than counter-spell.

I agree with this, even if as a DM i tried to overcome this using sometimes "guerrilla tactics" with my monsters.

Even if I think that if the players manage to take someone off-guard, it's in their right enjoy the "NUKE!" part of the game.