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playswithfire
2009-06-07, 09:19 PM
Sorry this is so brief, but I wanted to get it down.

Would this work?

Street Smarts
You intuit problems well and pick up skills easily through practical experience but have difficulty in a more academic setting
Benefit: You use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Intelligence modifier to determine how many additional skill points you learn at each level, however all Intelligence-based skills are always considered cross-class skills for you and can not be made class skills.
Special: Can only be taken at first level

In addition to wondering if it would be acceptable/flavorful/unbalancing, can anyone come up with a better name?

Pie Guy
2009-06-07, 09:25 PM
Not really unbalancing, but instead of having intelligence skills always be cross class, how about you have to spend two skillpoints to make it a class skill as normal, if it would have been a class skill without this feat.

TheGrimace
2009-06-08, 01:33 AM
I don't think that it would be an issue to allow you to have intelligence skills as class skills.

For example, my cleric of Olidimara can't have search?
My cleric of Moradin can't have craft?
My rogue can't have disable device?

I kinda get what you were trying to do with it, but I don't think it's a necessary restriction.

elliott20
2009-06-08, 02:36 AM
there's no need for the restriction, if you ask me. the feat itself is not THAT powerful (though it does help wis based characters a little), so placing that restriction on it might just seem unnecessary and also just requires extra book keeping.

DracoDei
2009-06-08, 03:23 AM
Did something a lot like this earlier... I think mine solves a slightly different problem, one that is intrinsic to the realism of the system...

For people who consider yours balanced without the limit on intelligence skills, mine would probably be a trait, rather than a feat.

Going to cut and paste to save people a link...


Brawn Over Brain[General]
Some people use their understanding to gain greater insight into how to perform better physically... others don't let having the attention span of a squirrel on a sugar rush stop them from having the acrobatic skills of one.
Prerequisites:
Intelligence 11 or lower (minimum 3)
Strength greater than Intelligence
Constitution greater than Intelligence
Dexterity greater than Intelligence
Benefits: Replace your intelligence modifier with a 1 when calculating the number of skill points you get each level.
Drawbacks:
You may not put skill points into or take feats that give bonuses to NORMALLY cross-class Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma based skills, and such skills that NORMALLY are class skills count as cross class (but never exclusive to another class). This means (for example) that a Rogue with this feat can still put skill points into Use Magic Device, but he only gets 1 skill rank per 2 skill points he puts into it and a can have a maximum number of ranks in the skill of (Character Level +3)/2.
For the above purposes, "Speak Language" is considered to be an Intelligence based skill. which means, for example, that a fighter with this feat can't put skill-points into "Speak Language" and a bard with this feat would treat "Speak Language" as a cross-class skill. There are still no skill rolls involved and still no such thing as "partially fluent" in a language.
Normal: The number of skill points you get each level is affected by your intelligence modifier.
Special: A fighter may take this as one of her bonus feats. A Monk may take this feat as her first level bonus feat instead of Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist.




Just so you can have a (probably NPC) Rogue or Monk or Barbarian with a 6 Intelligence who can still jump, swim, and climb very very well...


Edit: Here is a 2nd level 22 point Half-Orc Tumble -> Flank -> Sneak Attack specialist (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=14583) built around this feat just for an example.

Pyrusticia
2009-06-08, 04:56 AM
This could be unbalancing, especially in point-buy games.

Essentially, what you're doing here is creating a second dump stat (Cha being the first). Right now, if you're not an Int-based caster, the only love Int really gets is skill points. It doesn't have any combat effect, and doesn't affect any saving throws. This feat nullifies that sole feature, allowing point-buyers to put that much more into their primary stats while suffering no drawbacks, for the cost of a feat.

I'd consider a feat that allows you to base skills off of Charisma, since then you're exchanging one dump stat for another (although it might be a little difficult to create fluff justifying it). Stacking skills onto a combat or save stat, though, is inherently unbalancing.

Perhaps a more limited form of this? For example, Weapon Finesse lets you effectively 'stack' combat stats, moving to-hit from Str to Dex, but only for a single stat. By the same token, you could justify Street Smarts shifting skills, but any extra skill points you get (above what you would have received with Int) can only be spent on certain skills. As for which skills, I'd recommend a selection of lists, depending on environment, where each list contains 3-5 non-Int based skills. Examples could include Athletics (Balance, Climb, Jump, Swim, and Tumble), and Wilderness (Move Silently, Survival, Swim, and Use Rope), etc. Thoughts?

playswithfire
2009-06-08, 05:18 PM
Hmm, so, how to make it useful without making INT completely irrelevant.

What if, instead of replacing INT, it said.

Street Smarts
You intuit problems well and pick up skills easily through practical experience but have difficulty in a more academic setting
Benefit: You gain additional skill points equal to your Wisdom modifier at each level (4 x WIS at first level), but these skill points may only be used towards Strength-, Dexterity-, and Wisdom-based skills. Intelligence-based skills always cost two skill points, regardless of whether or not they are class skills.
Special: Can only be taken at first level

So, if you have an INT penalty, it still hurts, just not as much and you can max out thematically appropriate INT-based skills, but you have to work harder at it.

Thought?

Pyrusticia
2009-06-08, 05:41 PM
That looks like it'd work. I'd give it a thumbs-up at least for playtesting, and see where it went from there.

As for alternate names...

School of Hard Knocks?
Life Lessons?

TheGrimace
2009-06-08, 09:04 PM
the new version seems quite potent

playswithfire
2009-06-08, 09:35 PM
the new version seems quite potent

How so? I admit I'd been thinking of the low INT, high WIS scenario when writing the new one and discounted the high INT, high WIS character who, with this feat, could get quite a few skill points, but is that particularly likely and/or gamebreaking?

If so, I could put a prereq of INT 12 or less or something.

Pyrusticia
2009-06-09, 01:03 AM
How so? I admit I'd been thinking of the low INT, high WIS scenario when writing the new one and discounted the high INT, high WIS character who, with this feat, could get quite a few skill points, but is that particularly likely and/or gamebreaking?

I considered that, but didn't think it would be particularly gamebreaking. Taking this feat (with the appropriate stats) would allow any class to be a skill monkey, or a rogue to be an uber skill monkey. That certainly adds to versatility, but since most characters would grab the combat skills (tumble, etc) first, adding this would really only allow them to branch out into some of the less commonly used skills. Shouldn't be a major problem. Of course, some player may be more creative about breaking this than I am. That's why I gave it approval pending playtesting. :smallwink:


I could put a prereq of INT 12 or less or something.

Yep, that'd remove the potential skill-monkeying, if that does prove to be a problem. I'd probably set it at 10 if this goes in, so that bonus skill points are coming from only one stat.