Explaining ToB

[sonofzeal]

Okay, I have a friend who wants to make an Unarmed Swordsage, but has never seen ToB before, and is fairly new to D&D in general (although she has lots of experience with other systems). I've used ToB myself, but I was hoping that someone could either try to explain the system as simply as possible, or link us to a really easy newbie primer to ToB.

Thanks!

[Flickerdart]

Tome of Battle is very newbie-friendly. You don't need a guide to be powerful, which is why so many people think it's overpowered.

[quick_comment]

ToB=bowl of win.

Basically, you take the fighter, paladin and monk and fill them with awesome. Fighter--->Warblade
Paladin--->Crusader
Monk---->Swordsage

They each have access to particular schools of the sublime way. They learn maneuvers and stances. Manuvers are either strikes or boosts. Strikes deal damage, boosts are buffs.

Using a strike is a std (or full, depending on the strike) action
Boosts are swift or immediate actions.
Assuming a stance is a swift action.

You can have 1 stance up at a time.

You prepare your maneuvers after 5 minutes of mediation and practice. At this point, if you are a warblade or swordsage, you can start using them. Crusaders have this random method that is pretty confusing.

To recover your manuevers are a warblade, you just take a swift action and then make a regular attack (or use adaptive style)

To recover them as a swordsage, you spend 5 minutes in meditation (or use adaptive style)

[dspeyer]

Maybe prepend an overall fluff summary:

The idea of ToB is that martial characters can learn and use specific techniques, giving them greater strength and flexibility. A mechanic vaguely similar to spellcasting is used to keep track of this.

[Eldariel]

I think it's simplest to explain maneuvers and schools and then show the book. First, the different maneuver types:

-Strikes: These are different attacks. Most can be used before or after moving, some require you to stay still for the entire turn and do more flashy stuff (full-round action strikes such as Avalanche of Blades).

-Boosts: These are things you can do in addition to attacking and moving each turn. Generally these improve your next attack (be it a normal attack or ToB Strike).

-Counters: These abilities can be used on opponent's turn. As the name suggests, generally they are used to counteract whatever the opponent is doing.

-Stances: These give you some bonuses or abilities. You can have exactly one active at any time, and it affects you constantly. Switching it can be done as a swift action (the term deserves an early introduction and explanation along with boosts, 'cause there's so much that operates off these nowadays).


And schools:
-Desert Wind: Kind of an arcane swordsman-thing going on here; combine fire-based mystical effects with your combat.
-Devoted Spirit: Paladin's school; channels divine energy, allows healing and hefty attacks.
-Diamond Mind: Swashbuckler's school: Fight calmly and carefully to find the weak spot in your opponent, deal a lot more damage than your weapon should be capable of and evade opponent's attacks, magical or physical.
-Iron Heart: Fighter's school: It's all about mastering your weapon and doing everything a warrior does; block hits, do various kinds of attacks depending on the situation, screw magic you have money, rally yourself after taking a beating, etc.
-Setting Sun: Monk's school: Size doesn't matter, turn your opponent's strength against him. Think Judo; lots of throws that can be very devastating, counters to negate opponent's attacks, ways to punish opponent for being large and strong, etc.
-Shadow Hand: Mystical Thief's school: Be stealthy, be unnoticed, hit unprepared opponents without letting them into the fight. Oh, and channel shadows and jump from shadow to shadow and so on.
-Stone Dragon: Dwarf's school: Basically, break the ground, cause shockwaves, become hard as rock, become immovable, if it has something to do with the earth, it's here. Oh, and you can't use this while flying.
-Tiger Claw: Barbarian's school: Fighting with two weapons (mimic animals' ability to use multiple limbs effectively), do jump attacks, let your rage get best of you for ferocious attacks that leave you unprotected, rip opponents apart.
-White Raven: War Leader's school: This allows you to make your pals more effective, especially at charging into combat. This also includes various means to show example and generally assumes you're the first guy charging in.

[The Glyphstone]

And if anyone tells you that it's "Too Anime for D&D", open up a can of Fivefold Creeping Ice Enervation Strike on their faces and follow up with some Girallon Windmill Flesh Ripping. :smallbiggrin:

[quick_comment]

ToB is not anime (although it can be). Its modeled after wuxia.

[AslanCross]

ToB is not anime (although it can be). Its modeled after wuxia.

The sidebar early on in the book says it's inspired by JRPGs, anime, and wuxia. Basically, it has a lot of Eastern influences in it.

What many people don't know is that European fighting manuals had some pretty funky technique names as well.

In any case it's pretty easy to "file off the serial numbers," so to speak, and just change the names. I once had a villain warblade whose maneuvers and stances were named after power metal songs and bands, haha. (She's the one in my sig)

[Knaight]

I had a character that renamed all their abilities after birds moving in certain ways. Except for Sitting Duck, which was some sort of stun effect. Flying Swan was one of the touch attack maneuvers. I remember Swimming Crane was another maneuver, but not what it was. Hopping Pelican, Strutting Peacock, and Balanced Flamingo were all stances.

Point is its really easy to file off the serial numbers. Sometimes for humor (Sitting Duck was funny in use.)

[togapika]

Or for a very simple explanation....
MAGIC KUNG FU!!!

[averagejoe]

In any case it's pretty easy to "file off the serial numbers," so to speak, and just change the names. I once had a villain warblade whose maneuvers and stances were named after power metal songs and bands, haha.

And the other way. After all, there's no reason the vocal component of disintegrate can't be "kamehameha." Filing off the serial numbers isn't even too necessary-the names don't even come up unless your character is shouting them, in which case I think you want a more anime style anyways. :smallcool: There's lots of potential flavor between the lines, so to speak, in DnD.

[raptor1056]

I myself have always explained the differences as PHB martial= stuff people learned just from fighting, ToB=very specific warrior schools and stuff. Think a street fighter versus an aikido black belt.

[elliott20]

a lot of the ToB stuff (short of the outright magical maneuvers like shadow hand and desert wind) can really just be re-fluffed to be entirely mundane things, and become basically what happens when you take european style fighting techniques to an almost super human level. (which, supposedly after 5th level most characters would be anyways)

nothing says that all ToB maneuvers MUST be big and flashy. They could very much be shown to be brutal and simplistic.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

Do note that while some schools seem to prefer certian methods of doing things, dabbling in many is often useful. As a 'monk' SS I mainly use shadow hand and some tiger claw with some random desert wind tossed in for the fire chucking.

Since your manuvers go pretty fast, what does effect you more often is your stance. You select a certian number of your known manuvers and use them as you fight (for a SS you take a full round action to refresh a single manuver normally)...the exact manuvers you have prepared at any one time usually help form your tactics, but your stances are key especially in how they play with your feats and assorted abilities.

A shadow hand 'monk' SS might take shadow blade feat which allows the addition of dex to damage rolls when in a Shadow hand stance, they may then take the tactical feat gloom razor and make use of popping back and forth through the shadows to nail them flat footed while using assasin's stance to get a sneak attack and then switch to island of blades so that the rogue can attack from the front and still be flanking...maybe use the clinging shadow strike to force a 20% miss chance...with luck, a miss due to concealment may allow for you to go invisible and then nail another sneak attack.

many many options.

[quick_comment]

Think a street fighter versus an aikido black belt.

Except that ToB is more, not less powerful than regular PHB fighters.

[quick_comment]

a lot of the ToB stuff (short of the outright magical maneuvers like shadow hand and desert wind) can really just be re-fluffed to be entirely mundane things, and become basically what happens when you take european style fighting techniques to an almost super human level. (which, supposedly after 5th level most characters would be anyways)

nothing says that all ToB maneuvers MUST be big and flashy. They could very much be shown to be brutal and simplistic.

Even the supernatural maneuvers can be refluffed to be secret ninja alchemy

[KBF]

I myself have always explained the differences as PHB martial= stuff people learned just from fighting, ToB=very specific warrior schools and stuff. Think a street fighter versus an aikido black belt.

Then the PHB class is the aikido black belt?

"Shoryuken!"

[elliott20]

well the PHB2 does have feats that allow you throw ki attacks... I mean, fiery fist, ki blast = hadoken.

[sonofzeal]

And schools:
-Desert Wind: Kind of an arcane swordsman-thing going on here; combine fire-based mystical effects with your combat.
-Devoted Spirit: Paladin's school; channels divine energy, allows healing and hefty attacks.
-Diamond Mind: Swashbuckler's school: Fight calmly and carefully to find the weak spot in your opponent, deal a lot more damage than your weapon should be capable of and evade opponent's attacks, magical or physical.
-Iron Heart: Fighter's school: It's all about mastering your weapon and doing everything a warrior does; block hits, do various kinds of attacks depending on the situation, screw magic you have money, rally yourself after taking a beating, etc.
-Setting Sun: Monk's school: Size doesn't matter, turn your opponent's strength against him. Think Judo; lots of throws that can be very devastating, counters to negate opponent's attacks, ways to punish opponent for being large and strong, etc.
-Shadow Hand: Mystical Thief's school: Be stealthy, be unnoticed, hit unprepared opponents without letting them into the fight. Oh, and channel shadows and jump from shadow to shadow and so on.
-Stone Dragon: Dwarf's school: Basically, break the ground, cause shockwaves, become hard as rock, become immovable, if it has something to do with the earth, it's here. Oh, and you can't use this while flying.
-Tiger Claw: Barbarian's school: Fighting with two weapons (mimic animals' ability to use multiple limbs effectively), do jump attacks, let your rage get best of you for ferocious attacks that leave you unprotected, rip opponents apart.
-White Raven: War Leader's school: This allows you to make your pals more effective, especially at charging into combat. This also includes various means to show example and generally assumes you're the first guy charging in.
This helps a lot, thanks!

[Dragonmuncher]

Also, if your friend is having a difficult time with remembering the different maneuvers, you might want to print up little cards with each ability. Each card is the name, effect, damage, etc...

That way she doesn't have to worry about keeping track of them- she can just put a card facedown when she's used it.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Also, if your friend is having a difficult time with remembering the different maneuvers, you might want to print up little cards with each ability. Each card is the name, effect, damage, etc...

That way she doesn't have to worry about keeping track of them- she can just put a card facedown when she's used it.

And then lay down a trap card and end her turn.

[Sinfire Titan]

Except that ToB is more, not less powerful than regular PHB fighters.


On AVERAGE. Key point you neglected to mention. The Average Warblade can trounce the Average Fighter.


A fully optimized Warblade versus a fully optimized Fighter? Statistics say the Fighter wins that one due to higher damage output. Hell, a simple Charger build can kill a Crusader in one round, just like everything else.

[quick_comment]

A fully optimized Warblade versus a fully optimized Fighter? Statistics say the Fighter wins that one due to higher damage output. Hell, a simple Charger build can kill a Crusader in one round, just like everything else.

Both a warblade and swordsage win against a charger due to wall of blades or counter charge. There is also scorpion/manticore parry, one with shadow, shifting stance and baffling defense.

[Douglas]

Also, if your friend is having a difficult time with remembering the different maneuvers, you might want to print up little cards with each ability. Each card is the name, effect, damage, etc...

That way she doesn't have to worry about keeping track of them- she can just put a card facedown when she's used it.
You don't even have to design and type up the cards yourself. Just print out the ones WotC made (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a).

[Sinfire Titan]

Both a warblade and swordsage win against a charger due to wall of blades or counter charge. There is also scorpion/manticore parry, one with shadow, shifting stance and baffling defense.

I've never seen a Charger build use less than a full attack on a charge, so Wall of Blades doesn't work. Counter Charge only works if the Swordsage's trip modifier is high enough (and the Charger can boost his own somewhat better thanks to the focus on Str). One With Shadow is negated by Ghost Touch quality (or the augment crystal, or any other magic item that grants the ability, such as that piece of the Undead Magic Item Set, the name escapes me right now). Manticore Parry doesn't work if the Charger has the higher attack roll (Hint: He usually does if optimized properly), and there's no such maneuver as Scorpion Parry. Baffling Defense can't be used if you are FFed (hint: This is usually when a Charger build decides to kill you). And Shifting Defense requires an immediate action to use (can't be used when FFed) and doesn't matter if the Charger is large or using a Spiked Chain. Or if the Charger doesn't miss, seeing as you can't use that stance's effect and a counter in the same round.

Meaning the only way for them to stand a chance is if the Charger goes last. An optimized Charger is designed to have a decent Init modifier, usually through Improved Init+Magic items. Although they can very well leave it up to the roll. Rocket Tag at it's finest.


Oh, and they can't use a counter if FFed. So none of those methods matter if the Charger wins init.

[Telonius]

There are some things that might confuse him if he's actually looking at the book. IMO, the layout is not particularly intuitive. In particular, Table 3:1 on page 39 is one of the most important ones in the book, but pages and pages away from where I would expect to see it. (It really should have been included as an extra column on each of the class tables).

[Morty]

Even the supernatural maneuvers can be refluffed to be secret ninja alchemy

Okay. So explain summoning a fire elemental without using magic.

[Blackfang108]

Okay. So explain summoning a fire elemental without using magic.

It only LOOKS like a Fire Elemental.

It's actually an LSD-induced hallucination of the torch the Swordsage is holding.

[The Glyphstone]

Okay. So explain summoning a fire elemental without using magic.

What fire elemental? You've simply thrown an extremely powerful, concentrated vial of alchemist fire-like secret ninja gas that explodes into a short-lived but extremely hot blaze, distracting whatever enemies you targeted with it. Note how the "fire elemental' doesn't actually attack anything, it just sits there and flanks - proof that it's not really alive.

[elliott20]

I've never seen a Charger build use less than a full attack on a charge, so Wall of Blades doesn't work. Counter Charge only works if the Swordsage's trip modifier is high enough (and the Charger can boost his own somewhat better thanks to the focus on Str). One With Shadow is negated by Ghost Touch quality (or the augment crystal, or any other magic item that grants the ability, such as that piece of the Undead Magic Item Set, the name escapes me right now). Manticore Parry doesn't work if the Charger has the higher attack roll (Hint: He usually does if optimized properly), and there's no such maneuver as Scorpion Parry. Baffling Defense can't be used if you are FFed (hint: This is usually when a Charger build decides to kill you). And Shifting Defense requires an immediate action to use (can't be used when FFed) and doesn't matter if the Charger is large or using a Spiked Chain. Or if the Charger doesn't miss, seeing as you can't use that stance's effect and a counter in the same round.

Meaning the only way for them to stand a chance is if the Charger goes last. An optimized Charger is designed to have a decent Init modifier, usually through Improved Init+Magic items. Although they can very well leave it up to the roll. Rocket Tag at it's finest.


Oh, and they can't use a counter if FFed. So none of those methods matter if the Charger wins init.
Gotta remember though, this is a newbie to TOB, not an optimizer trying to crunch out a million point damage machine.

[Sinfire Titan]

Gotta remember though, this is a newbie to TOB, not an optimizer trying to crunch out a million point damage machine.

That wasn't in response to the OP, it was to an incorrect statement being passed as a fact (the claim that ToB is more powerful than a standard melee class is incorrect. ToB classes are simply harder to make suck, but are only average when it comes to actual damage).

[Artanis]

There are some things that might confuse him if he's actually looking at the book. IMO, the layout is not particularly intuitive. In particular, Table 3:1 on page 39 is one of the most important ones in the book, but pages and pages away from where I would expect to see it. (It really should have been included as an extra column on each of the class tables).

I am quoting this because it is so important. Most assertions of brokenness that I've seen are by people who did not read this table. So make absolutely sure that it's accounted for.

[Kaiyanwang]

That wasn't in response to the OP, it was to an incorrect statement being passed as a fact (the claim that ToB is more powerful than a standard melee class is incorrect. ToB classes are simply harder to make suck, but are only average when it comes to actual damage).

Well, even if I'm not a big fan of ToB, one thing it's for sure more powerful in ToB classes: skills. But I like a lot how the designers did them, it's the way paladins, monks and fighter should have the skills.

I appreciate this thing a lot!

Edit: i mean, compare skill selsctions and point-per-level of Crusader --> Paladin/Knight, Warblade ----> Fighter and Swordsage ---> Monk.

I found he Knowledge skill in the Warblade really a good idea - I mean, no cross class if i want history battles knowledge.

[quick_comment]

Okay. So explain summoning a fire elemental without using magic.

If you notice, it cant move or attack. Its not really a fire elemental. Its just a bag of iron oxide, aluminium and potassium permaganate to which you add glycerin before you discreetly throw it.

[quick_comment]

Oh, and they can't use a counter if FFed. So none of those methods matter if the Charger wins init.

Shifting defense only mentions the failed attack as part of fluff. The effect of the stance lets you take a 5ft step each time you are attacked. And you can have it up all the time. So uber-charger charges, and the swordsage steps away.

As for init: Moment of Alacrity. +20 to initative.

Scorpion parry is setting sun, level 6.

Not to mention that nothing stops the warblade from also doing the uber charge thing, but combining it with raging mongoose or belt of battle + time stands still. Heck, with ruby knight vindicator, you could use raging mongoose, charge, use divine impetus, use belt of battle, and then use time stands still, for a total of 3 full attacks + 2 more per weapon off the charge.

[kjones]

There are some things that might confuse him if he's actually looking at the book. IMO, the layout is not particularly intuitive. In particular, Table 3:1 on page 39 is one of the most important ones in the book, but pages and pages away from where I would expect to see it. (It really should have been included as an extra column on each of the class tables).

QFT. Don't forget about this - I think it's the one that determines the level of maneuver that you can use. THe important thing is that it works like spells (half level rounded down).

[Keld Denar]

Don't forget that Warblades get Uncanny Dodge, which mean that you are not flatfooted in a surprise situation and thus can take Immediate Actions like Wall of Blades.

[Yuki Akuma]

QFT. Don't forget about this - I think it's the one that determines the level of maneuver that you can use. THe important thing is that it works like spells (half level rounded down).

Rounded up. You get new maneuver levels at the odd levels - 1st at 1st level, 2nd at 3rd level, 3rd at 5th level...

The progression is identical for Wizards getting new spell levels.

[Morty]

If you notice, it cant move or attack. Its not really a fire elemental. Its just a bag of iron oxide, aluminium and potassium permaganate to which you add glycerin before you discreetly throw it.

So the key to being an awesome martial artist is to carry around bags of flammable substances? An awul lot of them too, as if I recall correctly, you can use a manuever multiple times in a single combat. What's so hard in admitting that yes, some ToB manuevers are blatantly supernatural? The swordsage is a monk with a different name anyway.

[Freejack451]

Don't mean to ninja, but I don't have a copy of ToB (blasphemy, I know) but was wondering if running the base melee classes gestalt with their respective ToB remake. Would that be to much at any level to equal out the lack of power compared to casters?

At low levels it seems like it would be to much, but was mainly interested in mid and high level performance. I have flipped around in the ToB at the store and was thinking about gestalting the fighter side every other level.

Sorry, if this seems like a noob question. Most of my 3.5 D&D knowledge for the past few years is theoretical due to work and lack of time. I have not played any table top games in a while.

[Zore]

Don't mean to ninja, but I don't have a copy of ToB (blasphemy, I know) but was wondering if running the base melee classes gestalt with their respective ToB remake. Would that be to much at any level to equal out the lack of power compared to casters?

At low levels it seems like it would be to much, but was mainly interested in mid and high level performance. I have flipped around in the ToB at the store and was thinking about gestalting the fighter side every other level.

Sorry, if this seems like a noob question. Most of my 3.5 D&D knowledge for the past few years is theoretical due to work and lack of time. I have not played any table top games in a while.

Gestalt wouldn't do too too much. Fighter/Swordsage would be useful especially if going two weapon fighting but its really a power boost when they don't really need it that tapers off at higher levels.

[quick_comment]

Don't mean to ninja, but I don't have a copy of ToB (blasphemy, I know) but was wondering if running the base melee classes gestalt with their respective ToB remake. Would that be to much at any level to equal out the lack of power compared to casters?

At low levels it seems like it would be to much, but was mainly interested in mid and high level performance. I have flipped around in the ToB at the store and was thinking about gestalting the fighter side every other level.

Sorry, if this seems like a noob question. Most of my 3.5 D&D knowledge for the past few years is theoretical due to work and lack of time. I have not played any table top games in a while.

Its a neat idea, but It still doesnt put them at the level of casters. Gesalting a warblade with fighter is basically just free feats. Paladin with crusader is some nice spells. Monk with Swordsage is just some weak abilities.

The crusader gains the most by far. In addition to nice spells like holy sword and favor of the martyr, he gains a mount, and also gets access to ruby knight vindicator without any multiclassing.

The warblade gains bonus feats, which are always nice. He can pick up some extra maneuvers or stances, or go for tripping, whatever. Its free feats.

The swordsage gets screwed, because the monk has really nothing useful.

[sonofzeal]

Don't mean to ninja, but I don't have a copy of ToB (blasphemy, I know) but was wondering if running the base melee classes gestalt with their respective ToB remake. Would that be to much at any level to equal out the lack of power compared to casters?

At low levels it seems like it would be to much, but was mainly interested in mid and high level performance. I have flipped around in the ToB at the store and was thinking about gestalting the fighter side every other level.

Sorry, if this seems like a noob question. Most of my 3.5 D&D knowledge for the past few years is theoretical due to work and lack of time. I have not played any table top games in a while.
At low levels, in most combat situations, ToB already overpowers casters substantially. A level 3-5 martial adept can carve a bloody swathe through CR 3-5 enemies and be extremely difficult to kill, while level 3-5 casters usually help but aren't nearly as terrifying.

At higher levels... well, it still depends on the situation. Casters get to break too many rules to ever be balanced at those levels, but ToB can at least stay relevant. A ToB character is generally better in melee than a Polymorphing Wizard, or a CoDzilla. They get enough skills and utility powers to contribute outside of combat, and they're powerful enough to get the enemy's attention (and durable enough to survive it) inside combat.

[Sinfire Titan]

Shifting defense only mentions the failed attack as part of fluff. The effect of the stance lets you take a 5ft step each time you are attacked. And you can have it up all the time. So uber-charger charges, and the swordsage steps away.

Shifting Defense is in desperate need of errata, but still does no good against a Spiked Chain (the most common weapon used by a Charger build). And this effect is similar to the Strongheart Vest argument (how Strongheart Vest says it only works against attacks, then goes and contradicts itself in under a paragraph).


As for init: Moment of Alacrity. +20 to initative.

Applies at the end of the round, Swift action. Meaning the Charger still gets an action before that boost kicks in.


Scorpion parry is setting sun, level 6.

Scorpion Parry sucks compared to a Charger build (the Swordsage has Medium BAB).


Not to mention that nothing stops the warblade from also doing the uber charge thing, but combining it with raging mongoose or belt of battle + time stands still. Heck, with ruby knight vindicator, you could use raging mongoose, charge, use divine impetus, use belt of battle, and then use time stands still, for a total of 3 full attacks + 2 more per weapon off the charge.

It's not a Warbalde if you use RKV, it's a Warblade with Cleric spellcasting abilities (which means it auto-wins due to spells being more powerful than melee classes). He also doesn't have the damage output of the Charger build, meaning he needs to roll really well with all of those attacks or else the Charger eats him with Trip attempts. He lacks the feats and PrCs needed to make the Charger build at it's most optimal form (which usually includes Lockdown).






Again, most of the methods you've listed involve the Warblade winning Init. Contrary to popular belief, Uncanny Dodge does not give you the ability to take Immediate actions while FFed, it just gives you your Dex to AC back. You still follow the rest of the FFed rules normally. Not even Combat Reflexes lets you use your Immediate action while FFed. It's nothing more than a game of Rocket Tag, which proves how powerful the Charger build is against a ToB class. Against an RKV, or a JPM, the caster wins that fight hands down (because he's a caster). But straight-up Melee VS Melee, it comes down to Init.

[Faleldir]

Don't mean to ninja, but I don't have a copy of ToB (blasphemy, I know) but was wondering if running the base melee classes gestalt with their respective ToB remake. Would that be to much at any level to equal out the lack of power compared to casters?

It would be better to choose classes that cover each other's weaknesses.
I've been waiting for a chance to share this idea:

Human Unarmed Swordsage 20 // Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy City Brawler Streetfighter Dashing Step Barbarian 20

City Brawler breaks the rules for unarmed strikes but doesn't add damage.
You get full BAB, three good saves and d12 hit dice.

Shaky: Adaptive Style
Frail: Righteous Wrath (for Concentration)
Human: Jotunbrud (optional)
Level 1: Power Attack
Level 3: Flying Kick
Level 6: INA: unarmed strike
Level 9: Snap Kick
Level 12: ?
Level 15: ?
Level 18: ?

At the end of the game, what do you get? Full BAB + TWF chain (unarmed only) + Snap Kick + Whirling Frenzy + Time Stands Still + Raging Mongoose + Dual Boost + Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip = ATATATATATATATATATATATATATATATA!

[quick_comment]

It's not a Warbalde if you use RKV, it's a Warblade with Cleric spellcasting abilities (which means it auto-wins due to spells being more powerful than melee classes).

You can do RKV without cleric. Either Paladin 4 or Soldier of Light 1 will do.

[Sinfire Titan]

You can do RKV without cleric. Either Paladin 4 or Soldier of Light 1 will do.

In that case it's actually weaker, and the Charger build stands a chance. It again falls to Init to see which wins.

[Keld Denar]

Shifting Defense is in desperate need of errata, but still does no good against a Spiked Chain (the most common weapon used by a Charger build).

Why not? A charger HAS to stop at the first square where an attack is applicable. You can't charge to a square immediately next to a target to bring any reach advantage you have to bear on them moving away. You get just close enough to whack them, and do so.



Movement During a Charge
You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent.

You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.) <snip>


Emphasis mine. Thus, a pouncing charger would be denied multiple attacks against a foe who was using Shifting Defense since he would have to stop at the closest square he could attack the defender, and once the defender steps away from the attacker, he would then be out of range of subsequent attacks.

[sonofzeal]

I think we can all agree that ToB is much more consistent in its power than Core fighting classes, which can vary widely from "pathetic" to "pwn" depending on the situation and optimization. ToB has some range, but not nearly as much and the difference between a newbie martial adept and a pro one is going to be far narrower.

Anyway, I didn't make the thread for optimization tips, just a basic "how to" to make it all a bit easier.

[Josh the Aspie]

And the other way. After all, there's no reason the vocal component of disintegrate can't be "kamehameha." Filing off the serial numbers isn't even too necessary-the names don't even come up unless your character is shouting them, in which case I think you want a more anime style anyways. :smallcool: There's lots of potential flavor between the lines, so to speak, in DnD.

Nonono. The Verbal and Somatic component for Disintegrate is to crouch/squat, while holding two fingers to your forehead, and scream like you're passing a gal-stone.

[Artanis]

Nonono. The Verbal and Somatic component for Disintegrate is to crouch/squat, while holding two fingers to your forehead, and scream like you're passing a gal-stone.

I thought that that was Stinking Cloud :smallconfused:

[elliott20]

I think we can all agree that ToB is much more consistent in its power than Core fighting classes, which can vary widely from "pathetic" to "pwn" depending on the situation and optimization. ToB has some range, but not nearly as much and the difference between a newbie martial adept and a pro one is going to be far narrower.

Anyway, I didn't make the thread for optimization tips, just a basic "how to" to make it all a bit easier.

oh yeah, one more important thing to remember when using ToB. Martial Adept levels are not just your martial adept class levels, but Martial Adept Level + 1/2 of your other class levels. So, multiclassing with a martial adept class is actually greater than the sum of it's parts, making it very good for gish builds.