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quick_comment
2009-06-07, 11:23 PM
So can a regular old spider!

Taking a tiny monsterous spider and shrinking it down to fine sized, it would have something like:

1 hp,
AC 21
Bite 1 damage + fort save DC 6 or so for 1 str damage.
Attack bonus is +11

So assuming an average commoner with 10s in all stats, the fine sized spider hits 95% of the time, and the commoner hits 5% of the time.

herrhauptmann
2009-06-07, 11:26 PM
Unless the commoner has something like a flyswatter, shoe, or rolled up newspaper. Those are all +8 defending items of vermin bane.

Saph
2009-06-07, 11:30 PM
Well, kind of. Fine-sized enemies are typically supposed to follow the rules for Swarms, I think.

- Saph

AslanCross
2009-06-07, 11:35 PM
The commoner also deals nonlethal damage. Unless you give him a rake or a stick.

Faulty
2009-06-07, 11:36 PM
The commoner also deals nonlethal damage. Unless you give him a rake or a stick.

Those are improvised weapons though, so he'd take a -4 to attack and still do nonlethal.

AslanCross
2009-06-07, 11:42 PM
Those are improvised weapons though, so he'd take a -4 to attack and still do nonlethal.

Aww, cut him some slack. Consider the stick a club or the rake a quarterstaff and let him do lethal damage.

raptor1056
2009-06-07, 11:43 PM
I love you all and vicodin

Recaiden
2009-06-07, 11:49 PM
Monsters of Faerun had a fine spider.

AC was only 20, 1 hp, attacked at +3 for 1

I don't know where you got +11. It would have size bonuses, but also huge strength penalties.

Faulty
2009-06-07, 11:51 PM
Couldn't a house cat with magic fang incapacitate a dragon with a single claw hit if it got a natural 20 and the dragon has 0 hp?

shadzar
2009-06-07, 11:53 PM
The commoner also deals nonlethal damage. Unless you give him a rake

I didn't think commoners could take feats? :smallconfused:

averagejoe
2009-06-07, 11:53 PM
The thing is, a venomous enough spider actually can kill a human. It happens.

Faulty
2009-06-07, 11:54 PM
I didn't think commoners could take feats? :smallconfused:

They get feats normally at 1st, 3rd, 6th, etc and if they're humans second at 1st.

Another_Poet
2009-06-08, 12:04 AM
Shrinking a "monstrous spider" is not the same thing as statting out a common household spider. For one thing, most household spiders do not have a poison that significantly affects humans. If you're talking a black widow or something then the Fine sized monstrous spider stats sounds fair.

And as for the cat, that is true. But since cats are not normally inclined to attack humans, and the human can outrun the cat if it does decide to attack, it is not a problem.

I mean realistically if my housecat was brainwashed into attacking me it could kill me, too. It could rip out my throat - if I laid there and let it chew on me over and over. But I wouldn't do that, and neither would D&D commoners; and my housecat doesn't attack humans (except playfully) and neither should D&D cats.

I always have to laugh at threads that make fun of how weak commoners are. Give 'em their one simple weapon and some leather armour (they aren't proficient, but it has no ACP so there is no penalty to them using it) and they do alright for themselves. With 28 point build and an intelligent Feat choice they can outlive many 1st level wizards.

ap

quick_comment
2009-06-08, 12:09 AM
they do alright for themselves. With 28 point build and an intelligent Feat choice they can outlive many 1st level wizards.


How? They both have d4 hit die, and the wizard at least has mage armor.


Shrinking a "monstrous spider" is not the same thing as statting out a common household spider. For one thing, most household spiders do not have a poison that significantly affects humans. If you're talking a black widow or something then the Fine sized monstrous spider stats sounds fair.


Fine, take out the poison entirely. Spider still wins, because the average commoner cannot hit the average fine sized thing more than 10% of the time. (And the spider dex bonus reduces that to 5%)

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-08, 12:12 AM
And as for the cat, that is true. But since cats are not normally inclined to attack humans, and the human can outrun the cat if it does decide to attack, it is not a problem.

I mean realistically if my housecat was brainwashed into attacking me it could kill me, too. It could rip out my throat - if I laid there and let it chew on me over and over. But I wouldn't do that, and neither would D&D commoners; and my housecat doesn't attack humans (except playfully) and neither should D&D cats.Actually, 1st level commoners have a much better chance than most people think. After all, you wouldn't try to hit a cat, would you? You'd pick it up and bash it against a wall. Do that, and after 3 hours of reading the grapple rules, the commoner is much more likely to win. Not certain, but there actually are housecat attacks that require ER visits, so it works out.
I always have to laugh at threads that make fun of how weak commoners are. Give 'em their one simple weapon and some leather armour (they aren't proficient, but it has no ACP so there is no penalty to them using it) and they do alright for themselves. With 28 point build and an intelligent Feat choice they can outlive many 1st level wizards.

apBut Wizards get that and spells, so why would the Commoner live longer?

Saph
2009-06-08, 12:14 AM
The point is that Fine sized creatures are not supposed to have regular attacks, for exactly the reason you've just demonstrated.

Look at the Monster Manual I and you'll see that the smallest creatures that have ordinary attack rolls are Tiny. Diminutive creatures like bats have no bite attack, and as far as I know there aren't any Fine creatures statted out in the book. Otherwise they'd have to come up with an exception to the 'every attack does at least 1 damage' rule. If they'd statted out a Fine spider in the books, it would have "Attack: None"

- Saph

KBF
2009-06-08, 12:36 AM
I mean realistically if my housecat was brainwashed into attacking me it could kill me, too. It could rip out my throat - if I laid there and let it chew on me over and over. But I wouldn't do that, and neither would D&D commoners; and my housecat doesn't attack humans (except playfully) and neither should D&D cats.


Is your cat declawed? I don't think you understand just how scary those things can be, if your cat was brainwashed and dead-set on killing you (no pun intended). Especially if you were caught off guard. If the cat has a basic picture of human anatomy, it knows where the fleshy places are and what you use to move away from it...

The bite? Maybe it won't kill you, but cats can typically jump several feet, and are smart enough to climb. It could do some damage with a whole-hearted bite to the throat.


This is all assuming common housecats aren't, say, Garfield, though.

KillianHawkeye
2009-06-08, 02:02 AM
the human can outrun the cat if it does decide to attack

I don't know about you, but I don't think I could outrun my cat if he was seriously chasing me. Maybe I could now that he's past his prime, but I definitely couldn't when he was younger. :smallamused:

Atcote
2009-06-08, 02:07 AM
I doubt my cat could kill me, but he does some serious (arguably non-lethal) damage to me if he falls asleep on my feet and I disturb him.

Well, actually, my cat is many years dead, so I suppose it would get some kind of bonus for being undead...

Kylarra
2009-06-08, 02:27 AM
in mtg a squirrel (1/1) is stronger than a commoner (0/1) as referenced by sengir autocrat serf tokens (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=106638).

elliott20
2009-06-08, 02:32 AM
clearly it was a typo and they meant to call the card "Squirrel Girl" instead.

sonofzeal
2009-06-08, 02:37 AM
clearly it was a typo and they meant to call the card "Squirrel Girl" instead.
Only if it routinely defeats 7/6 cards.... when nobody's looking.

shadzar
2009-06-08, 02:50 AM
They get feats normally at 1st, 3rd, 6th, etc and if they're humans second at 1st.

See then the cat should win because it already has four feets by the time a commoner has 1st level.

Tengu_temp
2009-06-08, 03:11 AM
How? They both have d4 hit die, and the wizard at least has mage armor.


By not adventuring and choosing feats such as Skill Focus: Profession (Town Drunk), I assume.

Khanderas
2009-06-08, 03:32 AM
Is your cat declawed? I don't think you understand just how scary those things can be, if your cat was brainwashed and dead-set on killing you (no pun intended). Especially if you were caught off guard. If the cat has a basic picture of human anatomy, it knows where the fleshy places are and what you use to move away from it...

The bite? Maybe it won't kill you, but cats can typically jump several feet, and are smart enough to climb. It could do some damage with a whole-hearted bite to the throat.


This is all assuming common housecats aren't, say, Garfield, though.
Excepting the cat actually severing my throat (and the only way it would be able to do that was if I was asleep and even then it is just as likly the wound would be nonfatal, like a bad turn with the razor) a cat would do no more then superficial wounds until basically I tire of it attempting to maul me and I backhand it into the wall. <Hypothetical animal abuse disclaimer>

It is the point of the dreaded dire housecat. The absurdity that it can be a real threat to a human in DnD.

Edit: And no, none of my parents cats, including one cat who walked into town and beat up almost a dozen cats for the heck of it, have been declawed (they live on a farm, outdoors cats). I do play rough with some of them now and then, enough for them to do that backpaw multislashing thing they do on prey and bites. Sometimes they manage to break skin. sometimes not.

And if one gets attacked by a Garfield cat, it wont bother with claws. Just swollowed :D

mistformsquirrl
2009-06-08, 03:54 AM
in mtg a squirrel (1/1) is stronger than a commoner (0/1) as referenced by sengir autocrat serf tokens (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=106638).

That is because squirrels are awesome incarnate. >.>


BOW TO SQUIRREL, MWUAAHAHAHAAAAA...






<. .> Please don't hurt me.

MickJay
2009-06-08, 05:31 AM
An average cat can run much faster than the fastest human, so running would not have been an option :smallbiggrin:

Talic
2009-06-08, 05:35 AM
By the same token, almost all hospitalization reports of domesticated or feral house cats, were elderly people, in their 60's and beyond. (at least, of reports that I've located)

In 3.x, that would equate to a -3 Str, Dex, and Con.

A standard housecat should not be able to effectively be a serious threat to a commoner, even an unarmed one.

Kris Strife
2009-06-08, 05:54 AM
By not adventuring and choosing feats such as Skill Focus: Profession (Town Drunk), I assume.

I'm tempted to actually do that at some point... But with an actual PC class.

tgva8889
2009-06-08, 06:02 AM
in mtg a squirrel (1/1) is stronger than a commoner (0/1) as referenced by sengir autocrat serf tokens (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=106638).

In fact, one particular squirrel (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=30549) is more powerful than several characters in Magic, including trained (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=36451) warriors (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=106398). Though those two are admittedly weak.

quick_comment
2009-06-08, 07:41 AM
An average cat can run much faster than the fastest human, so running would not have been an option :smallbiggrin:

Maybe over short distances, but over long distances, humans can outrun just about anything else.

Kris Strife
2009-06-08, 07:54 AM
[Citation needed]

Peregrine
2009-06-08, 07:56 AM
The point is that Fine sized creatures are not supposed to have regular attacks, for exactly the reason you've just demonstrated.

Look at the Monster Manual I and you'll see that the smallest creatures that have ordinary attack rolls are Tiny. Diminutive creatures like bats have no bite attack, and as far as I know there aren't any Fine creatures statted out in the book. Otherwise they'd have to come up with an exception to the 'every attack does at least 1 damage' rule. If they'd statted out a Fine spider in the books, it would have "Attack: None"

- Saph

You're right that the Monster Manual doesn't have any Fine creatures -- not even in swarms, that I can see -- but what it does have are rules for what attacks Fine creatures would have, in the Making Monsters chapter (p.296 to be specific). Typically, they can only have bite attacks, which will do 1 damage.

And a typical Diminutive creature can have a bite that does 1d2 damage; toads aren't really a good example there, bats don't get any attacks for some unfathomable reason (even fruit bats can scratch you up), and the rest of the MM examples are swarms.

kamikasei
2009-06-08, 08:06 AM
[Citation needed]

Before we got big brains to invent all kinds of spurious reasons why we were awesome, we were already stupendous badasses in the animal kingdom. We were (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting) Terminators (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/11/041123163757.htm). I don't know about "outrun just about anything else", but we have remarkable stamina, specifically when it comes to long-distance running.

Spiryt
2009-06-08, 08:18 AM
Before we got big brains to invent all kinds of spurious reasons why we were awesome, we were already stupendous badasses in the animal kingdom. We were (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting) Terminators (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/11/041123163757.htm). I don't know about "outrun just about anything else", but we have remarkable stamina, specifically when it comes to long-distance running.

I'm not sure about "Terminators". More like "creatures adopted to do some things well, others not so much".

Compared to say, chimpanzees humans have great stamina speed, and can perform very precise movements.

On the other hand, compared to chimpanzees, we're very weak. 170 pound chimp can usually benchpress 5 times more than 170 pound human.

kamikasei
2009-06-08, 08:22 AM
I'm not sure about "Terminators". More like "creatures adopted to do some things well, others not so much".

I didn't mean we were superpowered killing machines, but that from the point of view of the creatures we were hunted, used to more conventional sprinting predators, we were these implacable "oh my god it's still coming does it never tire AAAAAAAAGH" ...things. Inevitables would be better, I guess. Think that episode of the Simpsons where Bart skipped school.

Saph
2009-06-08, 08:53 AM
And a typical Diminutive creature can have a bite that does 1d2 damage; toads aren't really a good example there, bats don't get any attacks for some unfathomable reason (even fruit bats can scratch you up)

It's not unfathomable; it's specifically so that you don't get the situation the OP describes. D&D's combat system is designed for creatures Small and up. While Diminutive and Fine creatures have bites, realistically they can't do any significant damage to a creature a hundred times their size, so the most sensible way to deal with it is just to list them as not having a bite attack.

- Saph

derfenrirwolv
2009-06-08, 09:33 AM
Commoner V cat. Start 5 feet apart. Both aware of each others presence FIGHT!

Initiative

Cat: 20 commoner 11.

Round 1

Cat: goes first. Moves 5 feet into the commoners square and full attacks at +2 +2 and -1. The commoner is still flat footed and doesn't get to make an AoO. The two claws hit and the bite misses. The peasant looses 2 of his 4 hp.

Commoner: Attempts to kick the cat. If he only 5 foot steps the cat will be able to do the same and enter his square with a 5 foot step to avoid the attack of opportunity, it will also be able to do a full attack

He hits and deals 1 point of damage.

He moves away, drawing an attack of opportunity. The cat hits for another point, bringing our brave peasant down to 1hp


Round 2

The cat, needing to double move to attack, charges. The peasant misses the AoO. The cat hits with one claw (thanks to the +2 from charging) and deals 1 hp of damage. The peasant is now at 0

The peasant can either move OR attack. Moving away won't do any good so he attacks. He hits the cat for 3 points of damage, knocking it down to -2. The peasant, unfortunately, the peasant just committed a strenuous act, and drops to -1 hp and is bleeding.

The peasant stabilizes on round 9. The cat on round 7.

4,791 rounds latter....


The peasant recovers a hit point, staggers outside, comes back with a rock and drops it on the cat (who is still at -1)

Winner: Commoner!

I've done this out a few times, and this is pretty typical. While the cat has better armor class, chance to hit, the peasant has more hit points and can do 3 times the cats damage with a standard action. His main weapon though is reach, which he can use to get an extra attack at least once during the fight thanks to his higher movement rate.


The cat needs to hit the peasant almost every single time to win. The peasant only really needs to hit the cat once or twice.

kamikasei
2009-06-08, 09:40 AM
derfenrirwolv, the commoner wouldn't think to grapple the cat at any point?

Peregrine
2009-06-08, 09:50 AM
It's not unfathomable; it's specifically so that you don't get the situation the OP describes. D&D's combat system is designed for creatures Small and up. While Diminutive and Fine creatures have bites, realistically they can't do any significant damage to a creature a hundred times their size, so the most sensible way to deal with it is just to list them as not having a bite attack.

- Saph

Well, we could argue all day about what Diminutive and Fine creatures should and shouldn't be able to do (oh wait, we are -- that's this thread in a nutshell :smalltongue:), but my basic point is that, despite the fact that none of the core examples do so, the rules do specify that Diminutive and Fine creatures can have regular attacks. I was basically just rules-lawyer-rebutting your post. :smallsmile:

And "unfathomable" was intended in context as, "given that little animals can have attacks, I don't see why bats don't". I do agree that the rules sort of break down at smaller sizes. The solution would be to start the rules at a smaller size and scale up. But that would make human sizes unwieldly, leaving us with a game system where the best characters to run are tiny little bug-riding fairies, and then we all complain about how the rules are unrealistic in how much damage a mite can deal... :smallcool:

Spiryt
2009-06-08, 09:51 AM
My question is:

Does anyone ever used mechanics to resolve fight with a cat (assuming that it happened in the first place), instead of description: " you kick the cat, it flies away, colied into circle"? :smalltongue:

Paul H
2009-06-08, 10:10 AM
Hi

May sound strange - but there is a report that actually happened. In Real Life.

Ok, it was a Wild Cat, (slightly larger than domestic moggy), but a Knight travelling in some woods in Scotland. Think it supposed to have landed in his face & mauled him. How humiliating........:smalleek:

Strange but True.............
Paul H

kamikasei
2009-06-08, 10:12 AM
Ok, it was a Wild Cat, (slightly larger than domestic moggy), but a Knight travelling in some woods in Scotland. Think it supposed to have landed in his face & mauled him. How humiliating........:smalleek:

Ah, but did it kill him outright, or did he die of an infection afterwards or something? Maybe he was playing in a grittier system, WFRP or summat.

Eloel
2009-06-08, 10:18 AM
By the same token, almost all hospitalization reports of domesticated or feral house cats, were elderly people, in their 60's and beyond. (at least, of reports that I've located)

In 3.x, that would equate to a -3 Str, Dex, and Con.

A standard housecat should not be able to effectively be a serious threat to a commoner, even an unarmed one.

In 3.x, that actualy translates to -6 Str, Dex and Con. -1 for first category, -2 for next, -3 more for next...

Edit: Rechecking, that actually depends on how 'beyond' they are. At their 70th birthday, they get -3 to str, dex and con. That also is incidentally weird. A commoner with 8 starting Con, dies at their 70th birthday, when they get the -4 modifier, which equates to their HP.

Croverus
2009-06-08, 10:22 AM
I'm tempted to actually do that at some point... But with an actual PC class.

My Lv 7 Ranger had Skill Focus: Profession (Reptile Wrestler) and maxed out Survival and Spot. He wore khakis and his animal companion was a crocodile. He eventually went on an adventuring party that took place out at sea... and was killed by a dire sting ray.

Oddly enough this happened in real life not too long ago...

Croverus
2009-06-08, 10:23 AM
In 3.x, that actualy translates to -6 Str, Dex and Con. -1 for first category, -2 for next, -3 more for next...

Edit: Rechecking, that actually depends on how 'beyond' they are. At their 70th birthday, they get -3 to str, dex and con. That also is incidentally weird. A commoner with 8 starting Con, dies at their 70th birthday, when they get the -4 modifier, which equates to their HP.

3.x rules say a character gains a minimum of 1 hp, regardless of Con negatives.

Croverus
2009-06-08, 10:35 AM
I seem to keep thinking of something. Here is why the lv 1 commoner can beat the housecat:

Fight starts, commoner looks to the family dog, points at teh cat and says "Sick it."

Dog charges cat, cat dies... or cat runs for its freakin life. Either way, commoner pets the dog after and gives it a bone, unaware of the cat's ninja brother hiding in the rafters...

Doug Lampert
2009-06-08, 10:38 AM
Commoner V cat. Start 5 feet apart. Both aware of each others presence FIGHT!

Initiative

Cat: 20 commoner 11.

Round 1

Cat: goes first. Moves 5 feet into the commoners square and full attacks at +2 +2 and -1. The commoner is still flat footed and doesn't get to make an AoO. The two claws hit and the bite misses. The peasant looses 2 of his 4 hp.


BZZ! The peasant is NOT an elite and does NOT get max HP at level 1, he loses 2 of his 2 HP and can't even attempt to counterattack without falling down.

Now, if he were a Wizard and out of spells.... Then he'd likely have 6 or so HP and win.

KIDS
2009-06-08, 11:07 AM
Because bats and frogs deal no damage (the text say: "because of their size" or something like that) and are diminutive, a fine creature would be even more unable to deal any damage. However, a tiny spider could probably win the fight without too many problems.

kjones
2009-06-08, 11:13 AM
Croverus: Just a suggestion, edit your first post instead of triple-posting.

Furthermore, see this discussion: Wizard vs. Housecat (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=912) (basically the same thing, the wizard doesn't use any spells or class abilities)

Specifically,


Also, Jeremiah points out that the Wizard could grapple (grab hold of the cat) easily. This is certainly how you would do things if faced with this situation. You wouldn’t slap-box the cat, you’d pick it up and wring its neck.


The cat has -12 to grapple. Even when the commoner provokes, he'll still be fine. He just has to make the touch attack... not great odds, but better than trying to punch the thing.

ericgrau
2009-06-08, 11:19 AM
How? They both have d4 hit die, and the wizard at least has mage armor.


Stats & feats he said. The wizard could take the same, but he wouldn't. Though perhaps if we give the wizard the elite array and the commoner the average array the wizard could at least keep up, and then mage armor might barely put him ahead. Except no 1st level wizard with half an int mod would put one of his 1-2 spells into mage armor. This is a serious flaw in many wizard arguments. You can't arbitrarily say wizard can do X with Y spell because he doesn't necessarily have that spell. You must first make an argument for why he'd pick it. Nor does that necessarily imply anything else; any other claim must still be supported as negatives don't show squat.

Btw, the cat has a 75%/75%/50% chance to hit the commoner with his attacks, and needs 5 hits on average to knock him unconscious. The commoner nees only one hit but has only a 25% chance to succeed. So the cat requires about 3 rounds while the commoner needs about 4, commoner is more likely to drop first but there's a lot of chance involved. The commoner may also run away halfway through the wounding since he's just as fast as the cat whereas the cat goes down all at once.

Though as said an actual battle won't happen and if it did, specifically against a commoner and not PCs or monsters, the DM could adjust the outcome to say the cat actually does less than 1 point of damage and that this rules simplification (i.e. 1 damage minimum) should not apply in this specific case.

Eldariel
2009-06-08, 11:20 AM
The cat has -12 to grapple. Even when the commoner provokes, he'll still be fine. He just has to make the touch attack... not great odds, but better than trying to punch the thing.

Unless he has Improved Grapple, chances are the Cat's AoO counters the grapple (if the AoO succeeds, the grab automatically fails). Also, Cat's Touch AC is 14, something the +0 Commoner has extreme difficulty making (in fact, it's equally hard as hitting the thing with Club, which would have a higher likelihood of knocking the cat out). Grappling is much worse an idea than attacking.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-08, 12:27 PM
Stats & feats he said. The wizard could take the same, but he wouldn't. Though perhaps if we give the wizard the elite array and the commoner the average array the wizard could at least keep up, and then mage armor might barely put him ahead. Except no 1st level wizard with half an int mod would put one of his 1-2 spells into mage armor. This is a serious flaw in many wizard arguments. You can't arbitrarily say wizard can do X with Y spell because he doesn't necessarily have that spell. You must first make an argument for why he'd pick it. Nor does that necessarily imply anything else; any other claim must still be supported as negatives don't show squat.The Wizard and the Commoner get the same benefits from first level, except the Wizard gets spells, multiple weapon proficiencies, and max HP while the Commoner gets to choose a weapon proficiency. Any Commoner build the Wizard does better.

derfenrirwolv
2009-06-08, 12:32 PM
derfenrirwolv, the commoner wouldn't think to grapple the cat at any point?

Grappling the cat is a bad idea.

The commoner needs to make a melee touch attack.. which is the same as attacking the cat. if he can hit it, he can one shot it. If he hits it he puts it into a grapple. The cat can then make a full attack, albeit with a -4. One or two of those shots will probably hit.

Then there's the problem of whether or not reach used to initiate a grapple draws an AoO. RAW it doesn't (or rather it does, but the creature can't DO anything with it) , common sense and game balance say it should. I wanted to leave that out of the fight.

If the cat gets an attack of opportunity, the peasant is wasting his time. The cat has a 70% chance of hitting him and stopping the grapple.



BZZ! The peasant is NOT an elite and does NOT get max HP at level 1

Citation?

kjones
2009-06-08, 12:41 PM
Whoops, forgot that hitting on the AoO cancels the grapple. :smallredface:

Honestly, though? This is how it should work. If you've ever tried to handle an angry animal, that's how you do it.

Of course, any resemblance between 3.5 and reality is completely coincidental. :smallyuk:

Sendal
2009-06-08, 12:46 PM
Seen as these are not theorectical builds designed to beat cats in boxing matches, you must consider what feats, abilities etc. the commoner, wizard and cat might reasonably have.

By far the most common feat choices for a commoner will be skill focus in profession or craft. He may have anyware between +1 and -1 for any ability score chosen at random, depending on his job. How many commoners will actualy make use of improved Grapple do you think?

The wizard is more likely to have some sort of combat-related feat. its nature will depend on the specific wizard, be it Matamagic, craft magic items, combat expertes, dodge, who knows. He will likely have -1 str, but probably a respectable con and/or dex.

The cat will likely have weapon finesse. It spends its time in bloody combat with rats on a regular basis. Stats are helpfuly provided though in this case.

derfenrirwolv
2009-06-08, 12:52 PM
Honestly, though? This is how it should work. If you've ever tried to handle an angry animal, that's how you do it.

Well, thats what i do with annoyed cats, skunks, rabbits and geese when the wild empathy check fails.

The game however, is not Kittens and Catacombs :) Its meant to model fantasy combat of knights, wizards, clerics and rouges against humanoids and monsters and as you said, only comes into contact with reality by accident. It breaks down into extreme silliness at the extreme low power (see case of house cat v commoner above) and at the extremely high power (Ok, a dragon the size of 12 semi's just landed on you... why aren't you jello?)


By far the most common feat choices for a commoner will be skill focus in profession or craft

And if your DM is doing a dark and gritty campaign, probably great fortitude to avoid the plague

Starbuck_II
2009-06-08, 12:56 PM
Citation?

Only PCs get max 1st level. Read Monster manual examples.

quick_comment
2009-06-08, 01:00 PM
The commoner cant kill the cat, because he has no way to deal lethal damage without a weapon!

DeathQuaker
2009-06-08, 01:07 PM
Oh... why not? :smallsmile:

One thought is -- if it is a domesticated cat, then it probably knows a few Tricks, and all it takes is a Commoner to make a successful Handle Animal check to subdue it. (In fact, if I were running this combat, I'd allow a Handle Animal check at a higher difficulty to subdue an unknown cat.)

Commoners have Handle Animal as a class skill, and it'd probably be a skill they'd commonly possess. If we give the commoner in question his one feat as Animal Affinity, he'd do even better. If that cat already knows the Down trick, then the check is only DC 10.

If we're talking about a random rabid cat that attacks someone out of nowhere then... well, first, yeah, rabid animals are scary. They'll hurt you badly. I wouldn't be surprised at all if a rabid cat could kill an unlucky weak, untrained human being.

But even then, if we make Bob the Human commoner, give him his one non-elite stat of 12 in Constitution, and then give him one of his feats in Toughness, then he has 6 hit points. Give him weapon focus in his weapon of choice, so he has to roll a 13+ to hit the cat. Yes, the cat has better chances of hitting him with his +4 claw attack against Bob's AC of 10, but Bob still has about a 40% chance to hit the cat, and if he manages to roll well on damage (a lot of simple weapons do 1d6, including the common quarterstaff and the sickle), he could still do the cat in pretty easily.

Overall, measuring an optimized commoner versus a cat, I'd say it's a relatively balanced, challenging fight. And of course most challenges in D&D are designed for four people versus one monster, so 4 commoners versus the cat? Piece of cake.

So if the game is you're planning is involving commoners versus kitties, you can rest assured you have a good, thrilling encounter planned.

Now, Experts, on the other hand... they could kick that cat's hiney any day of the week. :smalltongue:

As to the spider question, I agree with the sentiment that the to-hit was miscalculated, and a single fine creature shouldn't really get a damaging attack at all. If it is a Black Widow or Brown Recluse, I'd allow them to try to hit for no damage, and if the hit succeeds, then the human has to make a save versus poison. Given those poisons can indeed be debilitating and sometimes fatal, there's nothing surprising there.

Now as for me, I need to balance out the dracolich versus the 16th level adventuring party that are seeking it out. Strangely enough, I find the mechanics of the game work just fine for such a scenario. You'd think it had been designed with that in mind instead of designing unlikely, bizarre encounters between young farmers and domestic animals.

:smalltongue::smallsmile::smallbiggrin:

lesser_minion
2009-06-08, 01:10 PM
At least this isn't WFRP. In WFRP, a dragon can die from being bitten by a 'small prey animal' - also known as a bunny rabbit.

It needs a lot of rolls of '10', and one wonders why they changed their minds about such creatures having 'negligible statistics', but it is rather odd (especially as horses have no way of attacking you whatsoever...)

As for nonlethal damage - simple. Knock the cat out, then coup-de-grace, laughing off the -4 penalty to deal lethal damage as you go.

Although the Commoner should be given a weapon in this particular case, IMO.

DeathQuaker
2009-06-08, 01:16 PM
Why is everyone assuming the commoner is unarmed? He's got his proficiency in one simple weapon. If he's out in the field when the vicious attack cat strikes him, he may well have his sickle, knife (dagger), or staff in hand.

Heck, if that one simple weapon is a sling (he's gone out to kill some pigeons for dinner), a canny commoner might be able to take the cat out before it closes in range.

Spiryt
2009-06-08, 01:19 PM
The commoner cant kill the cat, because he has no way to deal lethal damage without a weapon!


Lethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Nonlethal Damage
You can use a weapon that deals nonlethal damage, including an unarmed strike, to deal lethal damage instead, but you take a -4 penalty on your attack roll.

Or am I missing something?

derfenrirwolv
2009-06-08, 01:33 PM
Hmmm.. I forgot about the kicks not being lethal. In that case..

You heal nonlethal damage at the rate of 1 hit point per hour per character level.

so in three hours the cat wakes up and Coup de Grace's the peasant

Winner Housecat!

Tiki Snakes
2009-06-08, 03:46 PM
Hmmm.. I forgot about the kicks not being lethal. In that case..

You heal nonlethal damage at the rate of 1 hit point per hour per character level.

so in three hours the cat wakes up and Coup de Grace's the peasant

Winner Housecat!

I like this ending better. It is more epic.

Also, Cat is stalking Predator, not foaming berserker. Cat attacks from hiding, gets suprise round, and the commoner with his non-maxed first level hp and without toughness (because come on, no one takes toughness, let alone a non-adventurer!) does not stay up long.

Mikeavelli
2009-06-08, 03:55 PM
All this "Cat ambushes the human and rips their throat out" talk is missing the point.

In D&D, a commoner and a cat could meet on the field of honor, politely bow, and proceed to attempt to kill each other. In this situation, the cat would have a realistic chance of winning.

Do this in the real world, and the kitty gets punted pretty quickly.

derfenrirwolv
2009-06-08, 03:58 PM
All this "Cat ambushes the human and rips their throat out" talk is missing the point.

I think the fact that the D&D rules allow the housecat a roughly 70% chance of winning IS the "point" of the thread. (insofar as it HAS a point...) namely to poke fun at some of the absurdities of the D&D combat system.

Irate Ranger
2009-06-08, 04:16 PM
I like this ending better. It is more epic.

Also, Cat is stalking Predator, not foaming berserker. Cat attacks from hiding, gets suprise round, and the commoner with his non-maxed first level hp and without toughness (because come on, no one takes toughness, let alone a non-adventurer!) does not stay up long.
What if the commoner's a dwarf? That's at least two extra hitpoints.

Tiki Snakes
2009-06-08, 04:27 PM
Dwarves are not cat people, and thus avoid the problem.

Irate Ranger
2009-06-08, 04:29 PM
What if the dwarf is a new immigrant having dinner with his new cat-loving employer?

Tiki Snakes
2009-06-08, 04:46 PM
Then he has a chance, on account of the heavy armour and the warhammer/axe.

Flickerdart
2009-06-08, 05:02 PM
Then he has a chance, on account of the heavy armour and the warhammer/axe.
Mug of ale could also be used as a Huge improvised weapon.

Starbuck_II
2009-06-08, 05:16 PM
Then he has a chance, on account of the heavy armour and the warhammer/axe.

Heavy armor imposes a attack penalty...commoner isn't proficient.

Tiki Snakes
2009-06-08, 05:22 PM
Heavy armor imposes a attack penalty...commoner isn't proficient.

Commoners can't actually hit housecats anyway, so no biggy. ^_^

Starshade
2009-06-08, 05:26 PM
I think you guys just inspired me to think out a original D&D story, involving brain controlled Killer Cats, rain of infectious brain control spores affecting small animals and diverse vermin swarms! :smallbiggrin:

What i had in mind, was starting a long term storyline on brain controlled cats killing pesants, controlled by a BBEG aimed for novice D&D players. :smallsmile:

I assume zombie looking crazy housecats with occationally crazied and suicidal Kobolds going totally berserk is a clue, along with meteor showers of strange rocks, to give novice RPGers a hint i got something planned, while being simple enough to avoiding being killed, since i plan for a small team of gamers to try D&D for first time, and i simply would like a "filler" creature who can hit and do damage, and be worth almost nothing, swarms of mad and crazied housecats charging adventurers sounds as a good option as filler creatures, since it could fit with an idea i got. :smallbiggrin:

Irate Ranger
2009-06-08, 05:27 PM
Then he has a chance, on account of the heavy armour and the warhammer/axe.
Hey, that's a stereotype.

Tiki Snakes
2009-06-08, 05:47 PM
Hey, that's a stereotype.

Yes. True though. ;)

tyckspoon
2009-06-08, 06:00 PM
What if the dwarf is a new immigrant having dinner with his new cat-loving employer?

Then the immigrant dwarf gets torn apart, as he has no wrestling or evasion skill. His employer is momentarily upset upon noticing that there is blood all over his cat, himself, his table, and pretty much everything he owns. This is immediately forgotten as he starts admiring the silken (blood-soaked) sock he took from the corpse of the immigrant. Nobody else cares, because nobody knew the immigrant yet. Eventually somebody else comes by and decorates the employer's walls with a carved mural commemorating the event.

If, on the other hand, the immigrant should win, his employer is driven mad with grief by the death of his pet. He tears the immigrant into tiny little pieces with his bare hands, then marches out into the hallways, roaring with rage, and is impaled by a dozen spikes kept lodged in the floor for just this circumstance.

Starbuck_II
2009-06-08, 06:22 PM
tyckspoon: You've played way too much Dwarf Fortress, no?

Fuzzy_Juan
2009-06-08, 06:36 PM
I've seen firsthand what happens when a cat gets serious about killing something. Even something big like a large dog. Humans aren't that much bigger and have more tender skin. My cats in the past have killed racoons, dogs, iguanas, snakes, possums, in addition to the normal mice/rats and various species of birds.

Some of the larger cats have some real heft and have larger claws to boot without losing much speed. I have also known a few very territorial cats to attack people in their home...thankfully the cat in question only practiced hit and run, but the effects were large gashes in arms and a couple of scrapes near the neck. Not to mention attacking at the top of the stairs causing the victim to stumble a bit and nearly fall in a bad way.

If a larger housecat was determined to kill a human for whatever reason, they actually could do some serious damage if not kill a human, though it would peobably not be as easily as in DnD. All joking aside, cats are leathal little balls of cuteness.

Spiryt
2009-06-08, 06:42 PM
snip

Yeah, cat's are bastardly effective carnivores.

Doesn't change the fact that they fly away when you kick them. Checked.

The difference of masses is simply too big to speak about any fair fight.

Faulty
2009-06-08, 06:43 PM
What if the housecat has a level of Rogue?

Drider
2009-06-08, 06:46 PM
...or grapple it to death?


Actually, its probably better to make a new character than try to make sense of the grappling rules...

shadzar
2009-06-08, 07:12 PM
What if the housecat has a level of Rogue?

Then it might stand a chance against a wererat rogue? :smallconfused: At least they could backstab each other then. :smallbiggrin:

derfenrirwolv
2009-06-08, 07:31 PM
If a larger housecat was determined to kill a human for whatever reason, they actually could do some serious damage if not kill a human, though it would peobably not be as easily as in DnD. All joking aside, cats are leathal little balls of cuteness

The thing is that they can cause a lot of PAIN but they're not going to kill you. I've had most of the skin flayed off of my arm by a 20 pound rabbit i picked up, but it didn't kill me. Nor would a house cat be capable of realistically cutting a human enough to kill them.

People can forget how tough and strong humans are. We're 150 pound primates. We can pick up 90+% of the mammals species on the planet and just twist their heads off. Its going to hurt like hell when they claw our soft, tender, naked flesh but we can get over it. Add the leverage in a simple stick, or a stick with a sharp point and we're a force to be reckoned with.

Yes, it would be serious damage in the "omg theres blood all over the place" but it wouldn't be much more than skin deep, it wouldn't compare to a box cutter slash or worse a stab to the chest.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-06-08, 09:33 PM
So can a regular old spider!

Taking a tiny monsterous spider and shrinking it down to fine sized, it would have something like:

1 hp,
AC 21
Bite 1 damage + fort save DC 6 or so for 1 str damage.
Attack bonus is +11

So assuming an average commoner with 10s in all stats, the fine sized spider hits 95% of the time, and the commoner hits 5% of the time.

I guess this was mentioned before


It's not unfathomable; it's specifically so that you don't get the situation the OP describes. D&D's combat system is designed for creatures Small and up. While Diminutive and Fine creatures have bites, realistically they can't do any significant damage to a creature a hundred times their size, so the most sensible way to deal with it is just to list them as not having a bite attack.

- Saph

but since I was droning on about it on another thread...this is just the scaling problem in D&D and many RPG games in general...well OK 4e doesn't have the same scaling problems but it still has them.

D&D (before 4e) was scaled to 1 HD characters fighting other 1 HD characters with weapons that cause 1 HD damage.

This scales up well (at least with melee). But when you scale down you get the problem of minimum damage or minimum hit points.

So yes, even properly handled with AoOs and grapple rules, with the RAW there is a chance that the common housecat can kill a commoner with a probability that is absurd if the RAW was meant to be a model of the real world. But nothing says imaginary cats with imaginary stats have to have imaginary fights with imaginary people with imaginary stats...

...unless it is the wizard's familiar or blackguard's companion or some such. Then yes, we need to give the creature some stats even if they aren't "realistic". After all, the imaginary cat is now an imaginary magical servant...

Michaelos
2009-06-08, 09:36 PM
Based on my understanding, there are two reasons the Housecat wins vs commoners. It can full attack and get 3 attacks, and it has better AC and to hit then most commoners.


Well, I made up some numbers.

1: The Cat is stealthier and faster, so let's say the Cat gets a single attack as it moves and attacks, from surprise or winning initiative.

2: The commoner, with no combat abilities, bonuses, or penalties from strength or dex), and either a club or quarterstaff (Both are free in the D&D universe, so it seems reasonable to be carrying one, particularly if you've heard stories of cats attacking their owners) and 3 hp (1d4 averages to 2.5, so 3 is reasonable if the commoner is unimportant and doesn't get full hp at first level, particularly when you consider a commoner array of 13,12,11,10,9,8, The commoner might have a +1 in CON if he has a 0 in STR and DEX.) goes next, he attacks, and moves 10 feet past the cat in any possible direction. As far as I can tell, the cat doesn't get an AOO, from page 149 of the PHB in reference to tiny, diminutive, and fine creatures.

3: The cat moves in for another single attack, but the commoner does get an AOO first, since the cat has no reach. Then gets another single attack.

The commoner repeats 2, and the Cat repeats 3.

So the math would go like this:
Cat Claw is +4 vs AC 10 6 or better, 75% chance of doing 1 damage.
Commoner is +0 vs Ac 14, 14 or better, 30% chance of doing 1d6 damage.
Commoner AOO, Again 30% chance of doing 1d6 damage.
Cat Claw is 75% chance of doing 1 damage.
Commoner is 30% chance of doing 1d6 damage.
Commoner AOO, Again 30% chance of doing 1d6 damage.
Cat Claw is +4 vs AC 10 6 or better, 75% chance of doing 1 damage. Since the commoner has 3 hp, he might be disabled here, but it seems like he has a 76% chance of landing at least 1 hit here before this. Also, the Cat has only a 42% chance of making 3 consecutive hits.
Assuming he is disabled, the Commoner gets a final attack at a 30% chance of doing 1d6 damage.

Using this, the commoner seems to have better odds. My guess is, the first few cats probably will win though. Cats are predators, and Crazy cats they might have enough instinct to wait until the human is completely off guard, (Say, prone while sleeping with no weapon, Cat gets a surprise round and the cat wins initiative. Then yes, the commoner is in quite a bad spot.)

But thanks to their better Int Score, Human commoners would eventually stop getting killed by Cats in their sleep, since they can post watches and secure rooms and such or find a party of 1st level adventures to help them. And Cats don't have a high enough Int Score to counter that very well.

Now I really want to make this into a low level adventure somehow.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-06-08, 09:50 PM
Based on my understanding, there are two reasons the Housecat wins vs commoners. It can full attack and get 3 attacks, and it has better AC and to hit then most commoners.


Well, I made up some numbers.

1: The Cat is stealthier and faster, so let's say the Cat gets a single attack as it moves and attacks, from surprise or winning initiative.

2: The commoner, with no combat abilities, bonuses, or penalties from strength or dex), and either a club or quarterstaff (Both are free in the D&D universe, so it seems reasonable to be carrying one, particularly if you've heard stories of cats attacking their owners) and 3 hp (1d4 averages to 2.5, so 3 is reasonable if the commoner is unimportant and doesn't get full hp at first level, particularly when you consider a commoner array of 13,12,11,10,9,8, The commoner might have a +1 in CON if he has a 0 in STR and DEX.) goes next, he attacks, and moves 10 feet past the cat in any possible direction. As far as I can tell, the cat doesn't get an AOO, from page 149 of the PHB in reference to tiny, diminutive, and fine creatures.

3: The cat moves in for another single attack, but the commoner does get an AOO first, since the cat has no reach. Then gets another single attack.

The commoner repeats 2, and the Cat repeats 3.

So the math would go like this:
Cat Claw is +4 vs AC 10 6 or better, 75% chance of doing 1 damage.
Commoner is +0 vs Ac 14, 14 or better, 30% chance of doing 1d6 damage.
Commoner AOO, Again 30% chance of doing 1d6 damage.
Cat Claw is 75% chance of doing 1 damage.
Commoner is 30% chance of doing 1d6 damage.
Commoner AOO, Again 30% chance of doing 1d6 damage.
Cat Claw is +4 vs AC 10 6 or better, 75% chance of doing 1 damage. Since the commoner has 3 hp, he might be disabled here, but it seems like he has a 76% chance of landing at least 1 hit here before this. Also, the Cat has only a 42% chance of making 3 consecutive hits.
Assuming he is disabled, the Commoner gets a final attack at a 30% chance of doing 1d6 damage.

Using this, the commoner seems to have better odds. My guess is, the first few cats probably will win though. Cats are predators, and Crazy cats they might have enough instinct to wait until the human is completely off guard, (Say, prone while sleeping with no weapon, Cat gets a surprise round and the cat wins initiative. Then yes, the commoner is in quite a bad spot.)

But thanks to their better Int Score, Human commoners would eventually stop getting killed by Cats in their sleep, since they can post watches and secure rooms and such or find a party of 1st level adventures to help them. And Cats don't have a high enough Int Score to counter that very well.

Now I really want to make this into a low level adventure somehow.

Does sound like fun. But adventurers are tougher. It's been done before but you can just awaken a bunch of cats or other animals and give them an appropriate level. For the backstory you can make up some the druid that awakened the cats...maybe later the "The Cat Lady" comes back to avenge her "friends".

Or if you don't mind capturing your PCs so they can be disarmed and reduced then you can use "normal" animal stats. Maybe an evil wizard wants to let his pets play with the heroes...can they escape the clutches of the deadly cats, escape the maze, return to normal size and turn the tables on the dreaded "Shrinker"?

Starbuck_II
2009-06-08, 09:52 PM
particularly when you consider a commoner array of 13,12,11,10,9,8, The commoner might have a +1 in CON if he has a 0 in STR and DEX.) .

Where did you get the commoner array. MM always said 10/11's only...did I miss that page?

Flickerdart
2009-06-08, 10:11 PM
Where did you get the commoner array. MM always said 10/11's only...did I miss that page?
Non-elite Array, can be applied to monsters to make them a bit more interesting, with atypical strengths and weaknesses.

Fortinbras
2009-06-08, 10:20 PM
there really ought to be some kind of rule about weapons that are larger than the target i.e. flyswatters. I mean the ground doesn't have to make an attack role and if someone were to push a fifty foot tall, fifty foot wide wall on you, you are probably going to get hit, no "attack role."

Irate Ranger
2009-06-08, 11:06 PM
there really ought to be some kind of rule about weapons that are larger than the target i.e. flyswatters. I mean the ground doesn't have to make an attack role and if someone were to push a fifty foot tall, fifty foot wide wall on you, you are probably going to get hit, no "attack role."
No, then you have to make a reflex save.

Fortinbras
2009-06-09, 12:43 AM
And what does this reflex save look like?

TheCountAlucard
2009-06-09, 01:00 AM
I'd say, assuming the wall is fairly large, 20d6 damage, with a Reflex save (DC 15) for half. It would follow rules that are already in the core books.