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daggaz
2009-06-08, 06:02 AM
My DM is starting a new campaign, which I expect to be pretty cool.

Its in the eberron setting, we start underground and naked at ECL 3, basically we are a party of prisoners sent down into the underdark to retrieve a mcguffin or die trying. Elves are considered food, goblins are the dominant society, and some of the party may very well be green.

Its core and Eberron only, tho my DM is cool and lenient and has already ok'd
intimidating strike and extra rage (PHB2) as possible feats. We've got 28 point buy (sigh) and Ive chosen to play a lizardman barbarian due to party makeup and campaign considerations. Being naked in the underdark at lvl 3 is more than enough to make me all sorts of happy about natural armor 5. We will be using LA buyback. EDIT: pls note that a lizardman ECL 3 starts the game classless.

My stats so far with racial mods
16 str
15 dex (first point goes here)
18 con
10 int (not optimal i know, but i hate playing stupid, and the dm said he would compensate players who balance rather than minmax completely)
8 wis
8 cha

I figured I would take full advantage of my jump skill, and as long as im light load and naked or in light armor, I have a movement of 40 ft and start the game with a jump check of 16. Kind of a cool character style, I think, a springy lizard...

Anyhow I am a bit boned on what kind of feats to take, I am thinking power attack and switch between a longspear and a greatclub (flavor again, as well we are unlikely to find high end items in the beginning) and otherwise.. hmm i Just Dont Know.

Skills I will be maxing to my best are Jump, Climb and Listen, followed by intimidate when I get Climb up to appropriate levels.

So any advice? Party roll is obviously beatstick, I am the tank, there is a bugbear rogue (houseruled LA fix), a human psion, a cleric, and a wizard of some sorts.

EDIT: If you recommend feats from other books, plz name the book so I can find it and show it to my DM. No splat books.

daggaz
2009-06-08, 06:14 AM
Not sure how you are getting all those feats.

I have one from my racial HD. At third level (my first barbarian level) I will have a second feat. My third will come at 6th lvl, but of course I will be buying off my LA on my fifth HD (third Barb lvl) so that will be a while. Campaign will probably only run til around 10th lvl, but who knows, sometimes we go a lot further.

Dipping fighter in the beginning is not something the DM will allow me to do, as we are down in the underdark and I wont have any exposure to it. So you pick a class and go with it, and if you want to multi, you need some exposure somehow.

daggaz
2009-06-08, 06:24 AM
Its a DM decision, and one that I am entirely comfortable playing under. He dislikes powergaming, there is a strong focus on storytelling and fluff. This idea that you are "trained" somehow in your class is even mentioned in the DMG, I believe.

Your own statements sum it up perfectly. I start the game with no "military training" so no fighter there (I could choose to be a fighter from lvl one of course, but I am not) and as far as learning from sparring from my friends... well none of them are fighters, so its not like Im going to learn any tricks from them.

Basically the decision preserves versimilitude and prevents "dipping" and obtuse, optimization builds that have little regard to how you pick things up..

At any rate, I start the level classless (2racial HD and 1 LA) so any progress is going to be slow, and I am going barbarian.

daggaz
2009-06-08, 06:36 AM
But how is a Barbarian/Fighter obstuse, or powergaming?


So write it into your backstory.

"My father made sure to teach me the riddle of steel so that my strengh would be channeled effectively against my foes."

Fighter2/Barb X is neither obtuse nor powergaming, but it is the beginning of dip builds that incorporate 5 different prestige classes etc, and thats what he does not want, and I am fine with that..

I could start fighter and fall into barbarianism, and Im sure he would accept that kind of thing. As well I could possibly start barbarian, and spontaneously hone my skills, but it would be bad taste to "hone" them for two levels and go straight back... he would expect to then stay in fighter unless something dramatic in the story gave a good reason to switch again.

At any rate, I start CLASSLESS (lizardman lvl 3) so my backstory doesnt exactly include other classes, does it? Please actually read the original post before responding, thank you.

I will look into endurance/steadfast feat combo, i never really thought about doing that as I was more focused on melee things.

TSED
2009-06-08, 06:38 AM
He has stated he has no problem with that ruling.

Maybe you should stop telling him how to play his character? That's generally considered bad form in any medium.

Gaiyamato
2009-06-08, 06:40 AM
Can you get hold of the Quintessential Barbarian II?
The book is pretty tame and non-powergamey for the most part.

You might be able to pass this feat by the DM if your lucky, it is one of my personally favourite feats in the whole damn game for high con fighter types:

Will To Live
The barbarian is the ultimate survivor, one who is
unwilling to roll over and die before the swords and
arrows of the civilised man; it is for the barbarian alone to
decide the time and manner of his death.
Prerequisites: Con 15+, Iron Will
Benefits: When reduced to 0 hit points or less, you are
neither staggered, nor rendered unconscious, nor do you
lose hit points. In addition, you do not die until reduced
to –10 + your Constitution modifier in hit points. Should
you be reduced to that negative total, you drop dead
immediately.

Might be a bit hard though with only two feat available, maybe something to shoot for later.
Unless you want to start with Iron Will and Will To Live

The follow on feat for that one is:

Wounded Animal
An animal is most dangerous when it is cornered and
wounded. So, too, are you.
Prerequisites: Con 15+, Iron Will, Will to Live, ability
to rage
Benefits: The closer you get to death, the more powerful
you become. When reduced to ½ of your hit point total
or less, by any means, you gain a +2 morale bonus to
Strength. When reduced to ¼ of your total hit points or
less, your morale bonus to Strength increases to +4. The
bonuses to Strength gained via this feat stack with those
provided by the barbarian’s rage class ability.
Special: For the purposes of this feat, extra hit points
gained from your rage ability’s Constitution bonus are
considered a part of your normal hit point total, as are
temporary hit points gained from spells, spell-like effects,
or magic items.

In the underdark, naked, these feats would probably save your life. :)

Innis Cabal
2009-06-08, 06:40 AM
Your not classless, you've racial class levels. I think that PH is getting at is the logic behind saying no level 1 fighter is silly and not game breaking. He isn't wrong over all, but he isn't -correct- for this discussion.

Gaiyamato
2009-06-08, 06:47 AM
Sorry.. only 1 feat. My suggestion is no good. :(

*ping*

Lizardman - Half Troll Barbarians look nasty for NPCs this time of year...

*makes one for his players to face*

daggaz
2009-06-08, 06:48 AM
Your not classless, you've racial class levels. I think that PH is getting at is the logic behind saying no level 1 fighter is silly and not game breaking. He isn't wrong over all, but he isn't -correct- for this discussion.

Yeah, its technical. I have two levels in lizardman. I prefer to call them racial hard die, as that is how they are generally referred to throughout the DMG and the MM. "Class" is generally thought of as a Player Character class.

Level 1 Fighter is totally allowed.. I could even go fighter in the beginning, then fall into barbarianism (I am sure my DM would allow it, but he wouldnt be totally pleased) but to be honest I dont want to. Having a ton of feats is nice, but I would rather just use what I have.

Please I would like to hear about good feat choices for a straight up clean barbarian, at least the first three or four, doubt we will get farther than that. If they can incorporate my awesome jumping ability, all the better.

daggaz
2009-06-08, 06:49 AM
Sorry.. only 1 feat. My suggestion is no good. :(

*ping*

Lizardman - Half Troll Barbarians look nasty for NPCs this time of year...

*makes one for his players to face*

No its ok, I am looking for builds that go into the entirety of the campaign, not just where we start. Thanks for the input, going to try to find that book as well cuz well, I just think barbarians are worth it =)

Innis Cabal
2009-06-08, 06:54 AM
Yeah, its technical. I have two levels in lizardman. I prefer to call them racial hard die, as that is how they are generally referred to throughout the DMG and the MM. "Class" is generally thought of as a Player Character class.

Level 1 Fighter is totally allowed.. I could even go fighter in the beginning, then fall into barbarianism (I am sure my DM would allow it, but he wouldnt be totally pleased) but to be honest I dont want to. Having a ton of feats is nice, but I would rather just use what I have.

Please I would like to hear about good feat choices for a straight up clean barbarian, at least the first three or four, doubt we will get farther than that. If they can incorporate my awesome jumping ability, all the better.

You mean hit die :smallwink:

And frankly, there are no good "barbarian" feats that arnt' equally good fighter feats at those levels which are "mostly core only". Your asking for something that just...well it just isn't there for you to get.

Gaiyamato
2009-06-08, 07:05 AM
If you take Power attack and your DM okays this you could take Leap attack later on which fluff wise works well with the leapy lizard barbarian thing.
I could just image you you with Power attack, up the walls and leap attack and a great axe. Like a Gecko on steriods. rofl.

Leap attack is from Complete Adventurer.


Check this site out. I use it all the time.

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/datafind/feats.shtml

Also the Wizards index of feats:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats

One other thing I sometimes allow if starting above level 1 is for players to discard the racial HD and the racial skill points feat etc. and use the LA and base abilities and score changes only. Then you get more levels of an appropriate class. In your case I'd limit you to barbarian. But say for example a demonic character might be limited to Warlock.
Thats just one of my home rules. lol.

EDIT:

Have you considered that perhaps there is a reason why everyone is "picking you to death"?

You know. I don't see any reason for you guys to pick on him.
Sometimes it is nice to have a heavily restricted hard fought game of fairly mediocre characters.

I'd play this game, though not sure if I'd take a race with LA. But Lizardman is a good pick.

Gaiyamato
2009-06-08, 07:18 AM
I see no problem on a zero tolerace policy for dipping into other base classes for a once off campaign. I actually kind of like the idea after all the power builds people come up with these days. I might run my next campaign the same way. :)

Though I'd allow the following for base classes:

PHB Classes
Tome of Magic
PHB II Classes - No duskblade or dragon shaman
Scout
Archivst
Warlock
Swordsage

Then just run a setting-less campaign. Heavily restrict prestige classes to what can be gained fluff wise during rp only.


------------------------------

daggaz he can only ruin your thread if you reply to him and take it all personally. Just chill and lets discuss your options. He might even get more constructive after a short while anyway. ;)

daggaz
2009-06-08, 07:23 AM
Hey thanks man, you are right and I appreciate the effort on your part. Will look into leap attack, and yeah I love that feat site, found that a few years ago!

Gaiyamato
2009-06-08, 07:34 AM
No probs. Any time. :)

daggaz
2009-06-08, 08:55 AM
*big sigh* no matter what I cant seem to convince my DM to accept leap attack. Shame as it is by far the coolest feat for this character concept, but he is worried that he will end up oneshotting to many pc's with it if he lets it into his world. *big sigh*

Gaiyamato
2009-06-09, 02:21 AM
Go for pure survival then.
In the underdark that is a good option always. lol.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-09, 03:46 AM
This is, in essence, what I have an issue with. the same nonsensical attitude that bans harmless multiclassing also prevents players from enjoying fun character concepts.

Gnorman
2009-06-09, 04:55 AM
How has this thread gone on for so long without someone making a "Leapin' Lizards!" joke?

Oh. Wait. Right. I just did.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-09, 04:56 AM
That's it. You are so getting a mind crush.

Gaiyamato
2009-06-09, 05:10 AM
This is, in essence, what I have an issue with. the same nonsensical attitude that bans harmless multiclassing also prevents players from enjoying fun character concepts.

I must kind of agree with you there. Leap attack is not such a nasty feat, though it can be made so with combination of other feats and abilities.
But in such a toned down game A simple Lizardman Barbarian with power attack and leap attack.. and nothing else! Should not be an issue I would have thought.

But ours is not to question. lol.

I quite like the idea of a leaping lizard. Might use it one day. :)
I think there is a dex feat somewhere that lets you leap over opponents heads as a move in close combat and then combined with up the walls would make for an amusing "leapin lizard" indeed. :)

daggaz
2009-06-09, 05:23 AM
While I dont agree much at all with his reasoning for not allowing leap attack (there are a million ways a GM can oneshot partymembers just in core, and a billion reasons why good GMs of course do not do so, as well as plenty of fluff and mechanical ways to avoid doing it) especially as it is by far the coolest possible RP and mechanical concept for my character, I am going to just abide by his rulings. Its his world, and he does tend to make a very detailed and cool sandbox to play in. I did try debating it for a good long time tho. Oh well. Really I think he is just avoiding the slippery slope of powergaming.. if I get leap attack, which is NOT in the books he supposedly was limiting to, then other players will suddenly want to open up towards maybe planar shepard (obvious exaggeration) etc..etc... Still.. *big sigh*

Yeah, I am looking at either Endurance/Steadfast Determination for pure survivability (I actually like that endurance lets me sleep in my barb armor),

or Power Attack/Intimidating Strike (for meleers I like feats that mesh with their skills and are useable in battle)

or Extra Rage/Raging Luck for taking advantage of Eberrons action point system.

The last one is probably number three for what I want, the first one is probably the most useful for long term survivabilty, but the second one seems like it would be the most fun.

Plus who knows, maybe after a few levels, when people have some hitpoints and the group has gelled nicely, he might suddenly allow leap attack, and then Ive got the right prereq.

daggaz
2009-06-09, 05:24 AM
I quite like the idea of a leaping lizard. Might use it one day. :)
I think there is a dex feat somewhere that lets you leap over opponents heads as a move in close combat and then combined with up the walls would make for an amusing "leapin lizard" indeed. :)

Ooh that sounds interesting, any idea what books those are in? Anything that lets me take advantage of my jump skill is going to be A-priority in my book right now.

Zen Master
2009-06-09, 05:25 AM
*big sigh* no matter what I cant seem to convince my DM to accept leap attack. Shame as it is by far the coolest feat for this character concept, but he is worried that he will end up oneshotting to many pc's with it if he lets it into his world. *big sigh*

Really, you shouldn't worry too much about leap attack. I happen to know what sort of enemies you'll be facing, and doing ... lets say 50 damage to an enemy with 15 hp isn't really all that relevant.

I also happen to know that a great number of challenges will be better defeated with skills and roleplay than with big numbers.

Yea ... none may hide from the all-seeing eye!

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-09, 05:25 AM
Really I think he is just avoiding the slippery slope of powergaming.. if I get leap attack, which is NOT in the books he supposedly was limiting to, then other players will suddenly want to open up towards maybe planar shepard (obvious exaggeration) etc..etc... Still.. *big sigh*

Who does he think he is, Emmanuel Kant?

daggaz
2009-06-09, 05:31 AM
Yea ... none may hide from the all-seeing eye!

Ha ha! Your avatar looks like you! What is that dog doing to your leg, tho??:smalleek:

I somehow doubt I will be doing 50 damage. its more like 1d10 + 18 ...and wont enemies be levelling up with us as well? As well, melee is just one part of the game, you know I pimped my skills and you know I will RP as well. Anyhoo..

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-09, 05:32 AM
Yea ... none may hide from the all-seeing eye!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v422/toddsun/blinking_eye.gif

daggaz
2009-06-09, 05:43 AM
Bleh.. Up the Walls requires wis 13... not going to happen. =( as well I think I have to psionically focus, which I cant, not having any power points. Otherwise a cool feat.

Gaiyamato
2009-06-09, 06:16 AM
Yeah the other one I was thinking was bounding assault.

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Bounding_Assault

Too many feats required and for much higer levels.

Other amusing feats that would suit you but you cannot get:

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Grasshopper_Strike
http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Legendary_Leaper
http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Mighty_Leaping

Feats that would suit that you can take:

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Leap_Of_The_Heavens
http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Vault

lol. This would be such an amusing character.

Zen Master
2009-06-09, 06:49 AM
Who does he think he is, Emmanuel Kant?

Yes - yes I do.

#Raptor
2009-06-09, 11:02 AM
10 int (not optimal i know, but i hate playing stupid, and the dm said he would compensate players who balance rather than minmax completely)

Eh, the barbs skill selection ain't bad, so I don't think you'll regret it.
Jumping, swimming, climbing... sound all like very lizardy things to me. Dunno if the swimming will see much use though, im not too familar with the underdark but I guess there ain't exactly alot of big underwater rivers and seas?

Survival is nice... depending on your party, you might be the only one who can put some food on the plate. If you get the track-feat, you'll even make a halfway decent tracker... not as good as a druid or ranger, but it might do.

Btw, I really don't think getting rid of the 2 racial levels of lizardfolk would make lizardfolk unbalanced.
Look at some other races without LA like lesser Aasimar, Whisper Gnome, Strongheart Halfling (and quite honestly - even humans often are really OP choices compared to the rest of the standard races for many classes), or some of the stronger LA 1 templates such as mineral warrior or lolth-touched (well ok - lolthtouched is just plain insane).

Zen Master
2009-06-10, 02:42 AM
Now, just in case anyone hasn't been paying attention, or is particularly slow on the uptake, I'm the game master of the campaign Daggaz is making the lizardman for.

I'm going to try balance certain things out in a meaningful fashion - most notably, I want a certain style of play, and I have players who will go for different level of (un)optimization.

As far as style of play goes, I will make things like flight unattractive. It'll be fully available, but I will create easy-to-obtain and cheap counters - imagine every random footman in the world having an arrow in his quiver that will cancel flight without a save, and also resist castings like feather fall for one round. Flight, as said, will be unattractive.

The other thing will be optimization. There are guys in the group who will chose (have chosen, in fact), suboptimal races and builds for sheer flavor. As GM I see it as my job to create a reasonably balanced, coherent group.

So Daggaz knows his optimizing. Not that he's aggressivly pursuing an overpowered character - not at all. But I still have to weigh his choices - not against the theoretical limits in the game, but against the rest of the group.

So I come across as the harsh, tyrant GM who only wants to stifle player initiative. But it's ok - I can take it =)

Gaiyamato
2009-06-10, 02:52 AM
Well I don't think you sound that harsh Acromos. And it took like.. your first post for me to figure out that you were the DM. lol.
I would like to hear your argument against him taking Leap attack though.
Just out of curiosity.

I thought a leaping lizard sounded cool. :)
Given the lack of anything else to combine with the leap attack he cannot do anything too nasty with it.

daggaz
2009-06-10, 04:04 AM
For my two cents, I will just say this:

I am playing a 2HD 1LA race that, while it meshes nicely with a barbarian, is going into well, barbarian. One of the weaker choices on the entire class list, especially considering I wont be doing LeapAttack/Shocktrooper/Whatever Totem/Frenzied X etc...

Otherwise we have a bugbear rogue (who once he cures his LA balancing homebrew disease in a level, will at least have stronger stats than I), a human ranger (not overpowered but they got skills and spells), a CLERIC of some sort, and a PSION.

The Bugbear meshes great with rogue, and I imagine as long as he avoids TWF, he should end up pretty formidable for his class. He isnt even losing hps from his racial HD like I do. The Cleric and especially the Psion should dominate the game table after 5 or so levels, regardless of optimisation, as they are full spellcasters. No matter what, they will simply have more options available to them, both in and out of combat. The rogue will be number two with his superior skillset, followed closely by the ranger.

Me? I am a beatstick. I "hit it with my longspear." Repeatedly. By picking leap attack, I am simply trying to give my character some cool melee options that mesh with my abilities. My skill list, despite dumping four points into my worst stat to balance it out, is limited, and jump is what I do best.

Sure, I can tack on 18 pts or so of extra damage to an attack.. but three points on that.

a) As you have said, it wont always be very useful, especially as you seem to be leaning towards large numbers of mooks in many of the fight scenes.

b) If I ever do find a worthy target, it leaves me well in danger. I am leap attacking right into a fullattack.

c) That kind of damage output will quickly be surpassed by psionic damage spells (How many d6's did your guy roll in the last campaign?) and even the 3racial hd rogue's sneak attack mods. As well, putting all my power into the attack drops my chances of even landing the blow. I rarely make full power attacks with any character.

My other ideas for feats were leap of the heavens, as it augments my jumping skills and while not really useful for doing melee attacks, could let me jump into or out of some tricky situations, both in and out of battle, and plain old combat reflexes, as at some point I plan on having a higher dex and I hope to be using a longspear. Will probably take that feat at 6 HD regardless.

Zen Master
2009-06-10, 08:24 AM
Otherwise we have a bugbear rogue (who once he cures his LA balancing homebrew disease in a level, will at least have stronger stats than I), a human ranger (not overpowered but they got skills and spells), a CLERIC of some sort, and a PSION.

I will agree they sound powerful - but really, I also know the builds. Straight rogue, and a blaster psion. Sure, psions are good blasters, but blasting is a waste of their potential.

And the cleric ... well, he's likely going to invest in fighterlevels to buff his fighting potential - that should tell you something about the level of optimizing going on in that particular players mind.

So leave the overall party assesment and balancing to me. I know the players, and none of them are any good at optimizing. I also know their builds, and there's really nothing much to fear.

Anyways - about leap attack.

Basically, two things: A leaping lizard can work just fine without it. And it will add massivly to the damage output of the character. Also, certain levels of pc mobility annoy me. That's why flying is going to be such a risky proposition.

Now, inside the rules I'm allowing it's possible to make an ultra-mobile character - since psionics are in, the options are many. Thus far no one has gone that path - and if they did, I'd have to talk with them. To make them see that the style of play I have planned will be ruined by it - and that I will not allow that, so if they go that way, I will find ways to limit the usefulness of what they invested in - which may very well influence their interest in investing in it in the first place.

Anyways ... if nothing else, it should be clear that I'm not passing judgement here without a lot of thought about how and why. It's possible and acceptable to disagree with me - but this is the game I'm going to play, it's the one the invitation applies to. Other games may be hosted by other GM's - but not by me. For a lot of reasons, among them: I don't find it much fun, and I'm not all that good at it.

Gaiyamato
2009-06-10, 08:37 AM
???

So essentially it is a psion with some other guys as minor side kicks.
If the cleric was full caster cleric then well its a two player game with "those guys who aren't really needed except to hold off the numbers while we do all the killing". lol.

I was only curious about the leap attack.
I get the issue with flight, though it isn't that big a deal on it's own.
All of it makes sense to some sort of minimal power degree..

But now that you have revealed that you are allowing a blaster Psion... yet not leap attack with a spear? Dude.. not only that but you have played one yourself. The only thing that can possibly overshadow it would be a full progression wizard or cleric. :P

Not that there is anything wrong with allowing it in and of itself.

But I don't get why your being so harsh on mister lizard here who is clearly the weakest party memeber. lol.

just... blaster psionic.. seriously. :P

no.. seriously. in only a couple more levels he can just about auto kill any appropriate CR boss monsters in a single action. And you are worried about auto kills with leap attack?
Unless it is going to be a psionic heavy game (like 2nd ed ad&d underdark), in which case he won't be so powerful.. just be the only party member not auto killed. :P

You do realise just how nasty a simply missile spell can be with psionics don't you? lol.

daggaz
2009-06-10, 08:38 AM
so... blasting is a waste of their potential, but they are allowed to do it. And doing so, they will far outstrip my damage potential any day. But Im not allowed to have something _remotely_ similiar?? Keep in mind, they are basically sorcerers, so its not like they are stuck on blasting either. They can change their minds on the fly. Me, Im burning a feat, and my attack is highly situational, and comes with risks.

As for the Fighter/Cleric... he will still have more options than me.

All that said, leap attack doesnt do a damn thing for my mobility either... I will always have a movement of 40 ft, and I will always start the game with a jump mod of 16, and the feat doesnt change those two in the slightest. It just gives me a decent reason to jump in battle. But if high mobility is out, then should I expect a gimp of some sort? Like there is always something in the way on the ground to block my charge, and jumping wont work cuz the ceiling is too low? In that case, I will just roll a dwarven fighter, give him a shield and sword, name him Enpeecee, and call it a day. Mobility is, afterall, one of the hallmark reasons for taking barbarian.

Dont get me wrong here, I know you said core and Eberron only ... but last time I DMed you hit me up with a ton of possible feats out of core, all of which I allowed except for one really broken druid one (I cancelled natural spell in that game as well), but still I just find your reasoning really...akward.

Ceaon
2009-06-10, 08:39 AM
I will agree they sound powerful - but really, I also know the builds. Straight rogue, and a blaster psion. Sure, psions are good blasters, but blasting is a waste of their potential.
However, a straight blaster psion potentially outdamages a racial HD +1 LA Barbarian, especially if that Barbarian doesn't go for the Leap Attack Shock Trooper style. So what fun is there then for the Barbarian, who takes a lot of hits, compared to the psion, who damages from a safe distance and has a lot of utility stuff on the side as well?


And the cleric ... well, he's likely going to invest in fighterlevels to buff his fighting potential - that should tell you something about the level of optimizing going on in that particular players mind.
So wouldn't it be a good idea to help optimize the cleric, and maybe the other players, instead of what you're doing right now?
Furthermore, if you help them, you know what they can and cannot do and you can more easiliy restrict their flight and mobility and whatever else you have problems with.

Gaiyamato
2009-06-10, 08:46 AM
Blasting with energy missile and similar spells is hardly a waste of time, and certainly NOT a waste of a psionics potential.

Just take a little look at overchannel and maximise feats. :P
Even if he does not use them he can easily slam a boss for a good 7D6 damage in a single shot at his level (not even taking into account any bonus PP form ability score etc.) and he gets to hit four mroe targets with the same damage as well. Far beyond anything the poor barbarian can do.

A level 3 Psion in a typical ECL 3 encounter could wipe out just about every enemy on his own in a turn or two.

daggaz
2009-06-10, 09:19 AM
What are we talking about here anyhow...

At ECL 4 which is my first barbarian level, I will have a whopping BaB of +2.

With 16 str, I have a +3 to hit mod, and full powerattacking gives me a +4 str bonus to damage. Charging in gives me +2 to hit, so assuming I do a full power attack, Im back to +3 to hit in all.

So I leap in (with my unmodified jumping ability) and do 1d8 + (4pa + 4str)*3 or 24 damage. An average of 28.5 damage, IF I hit with my +3 to attack. (or did I screw up the multiplier rules?) Take into the fact that the average mook of that level has AC 15 or so, and I am looking at missing more than half the time doing this.

And now I am probably seperated from the party and if the enemy isnt dead, susceptable to a full attack with a -2 to my AC. Add in the fact that we are apparently going to face tons of mooks, and this ability PALES in comparison to what a psion will be doing blasting multiple targets at range with little or no threat to himself.

Without leap attack.. Well my mobility will be exactly the same, and I can do 1d8 +8 damage, which is an average of 12.5... so its a boost of 16 damage on average, IF I charge, IF I hit. Not exactly game breaking, coming from what should be a fourth level barbarian, I would think...

d13
2009-06-10, 10:54 AM
Sometimes, DMs tend to forget to hide that, like races in D&D, they also have a "Favoured Class".
And as I say "Favoured", I say "Hated".

Don't get me wrong, EVERY DM has that preconception/like/dislike, but most of them try to pretend they don't.


Oh, and for the record, SRD is "Core + stuff", not "Core".
Core = Player's Handbook I, Dungeon Master's Guide I and Monster Manual I.

Zen Master
2009-06-10, 11:06 AM
A blaster psion is powerful - for a while. Then he's weight for the others to pull. Psions go through their powerpoints like there's no tomorrow - and then, they have noting at all to contribute.

Much like full casters, only psions get the option of speeding that up considerably with overchannel.

And I'm really not worried about their damage output. Yes, they do a lot of it - they are designed to. Just like a barbarian does - he's designed to. Maybe the psion does more - in that case, guess who's more likely to get a boost from a juicy magic item.

Also, a blaster psion is far less impressive than say, a telepath or shaper.

About optimizing: No, it wont be an good idea to help the others optimize - for one thing they don't want to, and for another, I don't want them to. The powerlevel of this game is in no way accidental - I'd designed it that way.

Furthermore - the psion and the cleric will in no way, shape or form dominate the party. Not at all. Sure, the psion truly does have a high damage potential, but that doesn't matter. Most missions in the game I'm planning will have a timelimit to them, meaning 'sorry caster guys - there will be no resting for you'.

You know those games that are so popular, where you run through a lot of corridors, and there are enemies that you shoot with your smg - but you often have to worry about health, and ammo, and not getting to fight too many at the same time?

Yea - that's where I'm going. And I really don't need a lot of advice here. Everything is according to design. And leap attack isn't. It doesn't fit, and it doesn't get in. Because at level 4 it's 18 points of bonus damage, but at level 10 it's 63. Plus whatever else has been added in 6 levels.

So this is the game I'm playing. There is another game that I don't play. And if it's so hard to trust that I can hit the balance in the game better than the individual players can, then I'm just not the right GM to play with.

Also, and this is pretty central: If the average non-boss enemy has like, maybe 6 hp, then it really doesn't matter one way or the other if you do 12,5 or 28 points of damage on average.

I know what's behind the scenes - the players don't. That's why I make the calls - not them.

Zen Master
2009-06-10, 11:08 AM
Oh, and for the record, SRD is "Core + stuff", not "Core".
Core = Player's Handbook I, Dungeon Master's Guide I and Monster Manual I.

Who said SRD? Did I?

Well I might have, I'm not going to check - if I did, it was for simplicity. It's Eberron - since psionics are an integral part of Eberron, it's in. Other than that, it's phb, dmg, mm. Everything else is 'subject to gm review'.

Draz74
2009-06-10, 11:31 AM
I know what's behind the scenes - the players don't. That's why I make the calls - not them.

Sounds like you know what you're doing. You're the DM, and the player should accept your decision.

Still, it would be cool if you'd help him add something to his character that gives him a little variety in his attacks (a.k.a. "puts more tactical requirements on his battlefield position if he wants to do his full potential of damage") and lets him feel like his Jump skill is really contributing to the character. If you feel like allowing Leap Attack sets a dangerous non-Core precedent, then could you homebrew something similar instead? (Look at Tiger Claw maneuvers from ToB -- obviously not an allowed source, but still a mental resource -- for other ideas about how some kind of Jump-related feat could find its way into the equation.)

d13
2009-06-10, 12:45 PM
Who said SRD? Did I?

Well I might have, I'm not going to check - if I did, it was for simplicity. It's Eberron - since psionics are an integral part of Eberron, it's in. Other than that, it's phb, dmg, mm. Everything else is 'subject to gm review'.

Just pointing that the OP said "It's Core and Eberron only" and psionics are non-core...

Merely fillers. Didn't like the offensive feeling the post gave out :/

Zen Master
2009-06-10, 02:49 PM
Sounds like you know what you're doing. You're the DM, and the player should accept your decision.

Still, it would be cool if you'd help him add something to his character that gives him a little variety in his attacks (a.k.a. "puts more tactical requirements on his battlefield position if he wants to do his full potential of damage") and lets him feel like his Jump skill is really contributing to the character. If you feel like allowing Leap Attack sets a dangerous non-Core precedent, then could you homebrew something similar instead? (Look at Tiger Claw maneuvers from ToB -- obviously not an allowed source, but still a mental resource -- for other ideas about how some kind of Jump-related feat could find its way into the equation.)

Well - without going into a whole string of examples, I feel I've done just that. We have had a lot of ping-pong about the character, and I've clearly stated that he is more than likely to get a weapon with a bonus to strength, and that if he likes jump, he should go find an item with a skill bonus - those are very common in Eberron.

Hell - I'm the one who pointed out you can jump as part of a charge. Not that I'm entirely sure that's the case - but if it's not, I'll houserule it.

I will certainly help characters in my game be viable and have fun - but within the limits I've set for it.

The Glyphstone
2009-06-10, 03:20 PM
But without Leap Attack, jumping during a charge doesn't actually do anything to affect it, unless there happens to be an obstacle in the way. And having obstacles constantly blocking the path to enemies will annoy everyone in the party who didn't tool out Jump.

For that matter, I'm not sure how you can get Leap Attack to add +10 damage at level 4 either. Assuming he's a Lizard 2/Barb 1/LA +1, he'll have a BAB of +2, which means if he Power Attacks for a full -2/+4, he'll only be getting, at most, +8 damage from Leap Attack (dagazz is doing the math wrong, Leap Attack only multiplies bonus damage rom Power Attacking). With a greatclub and Str 16, he's doing 1d10+8 on a charge with a +5 to hit. With Leap Attack, it goes up to 1d10+12, a difference of only 4 points.

Same thing at Level 10, assuming he takes straight Barbarian...+9 BAB and Str 18 (from 2 level boosts) will be 1d10+24 at a +6 to hit when charging, or 1d10+42 at +6 to hit with Leap Attack. A difference of only 18, not 63, and every extra +1 to hit he wants will cost him 4 points of damage.

It is your game, but Leap attack is not nearly as influential as you seem to think...the shenanananaigans appear if you combine it with Shock Trooper or Frenzied Berzerker.

daggaz
2009-06-10, 04:13 PM
Please specify exactly how the math works on leap attack. Note that I am two handing, thus the x3 multiplier. I assumed you multiplied ALL of the power attack damage bonus (BaB + improved Str bonus), but if it is only the actual BaB bonus, I am perfectly happy with that...

Because yes, my point exactly, without _some_ kind of bonus, there is little reason if any to risk the skill check roll and the charging away from group tactical situation, in order to hit an opponent you could just wait for.

Sure I can jump in battle, but why would I?

As for feats that have been approved,.. I was ok'ed for
-extra rage, +2 rages per day
-steadfast determination, no autofail on fort saves, con mod to will saves, requires endurance feat. (the DM jokingly says he hates survivability feats)
-intimidating strike, power attack to intim opponent, results in shaken for rest of encounter (the DM mentioned this was "easily countered" however)

feats that were denied
-leap attack (even with incorrect math, it is still inferior to a full caster, especially a psion, but I can understand not wanting glass cannons in a campaign...still, I feel there were enough drawbacks to it that I wouldnt be such..)
-leap of the heavens, +5 to jump checks with a 20 ft run, no doubling of DC without the 20 ft run (denied because the DM dislikes "hypermobility")

While I accept the DMs final say.. We are both bullheaded enough to argue our case till the final point, and I simply have yet to accept his reasoning. Of course, I will drop the case if it risks his temper and/or the game... but I simply do not agree, especially as these two feats are the coolest possible thing for my character both mechanics and fluff wise, and far far far from overpowered.

daggaz
2009-06-10, 04:36 PM
Well - without going into a whole string of examples, I feel I've done just that. We have had a lot of ping-pong about the character, and I've clearly stated that he is more than likely to get a weapon with a bonus to strength, and that if he likes jump, he should go find an item with a skill bonus - those are very common in Eberron.
.

I will just say, and I thought you knew this... I _hate_ being arbitrarily handed things because of metagaming. I pimp my int instead of spending the points on needed str, and I am promised a str item. That was almost enough reason alone for me to just pimp str anyways... the only reasons I didnt were 1) I despise playing low int characters for RP reasons 2) ok ok skill points, no matter how few, are fun and 3) the game is a balance between the DM and the players, we all need to have fun, I will do my best to make the game work.

As for jump, I dont need an item with a jump skill bonus. I have all the jump I will ever need, and then more as I level. What I need is a cool mechanic that will let me USE jump during the game, to whatever ends possible. Preferably in melee, as I am a melee focused character, but I also supplied an out of melee feat as well, tho I doubt I would take that without taking some melee feats first. Honest to God I just mentioned that one as I thought for sure you would like it. Actually I am surprised you mention the skill bonus item at all... as burning a feat rather than using an item is FAR more suboptimal, if we are looking at the flat bonus.

The cool part of the feat was the ability to make standing jumps at normal DC. This really makes me a jump lizard (please note that my actual normal mobility only expands by FIVE feet with this feat), and the idea of accessing that hard spot from a narrow ledge, or making that life saving high jump, in or out of battle, seemed not only like the kind of survival skills you talked about earlier, but something that defined my character, as well.

PS Btw, I hope you realize that I am planning on switching a lot between longspear, greatclub, and natural attacks. If I find, steal, purchase, or somehow otherwise procur a +str item, I would hope to god it follows the DMG guidelines on ability bonus items, and doesnt fill my weapon slot.

Starbuck_II
2009-06-10, 05:15 PM
A nice Barbarian feat is Cobalt Rage (Magic of Incarnum page 37). You get 1 essentia to input in the rage, but that is still a nice benefit.
While raging you get Insight bonus (rare for damage bonus) on melee damage and will saves equal to essentia input.

Cobalt Critical (magic of Incarnum pg 35) increases Confirm roll and damage when criticalling. Again equal to essensia put in (you get one for taking it)

Shape Soulmeld (there are few for those without essentia):
1) Wind Cloak protects you from ranged weapons (DR 2/magic) and tiny and smallerer flying creatures need a fort save to be adjacent to you (from the wind).

2) thunderstep boots: +1d4 sonic damage when charging.

3) Rage Claws: Grant an improved Diehard effect.

4) Planar Ward: Similar to Protection from (aligned) no possession/control you.

5) Planar Chasuble: Resist 10 cold (if good) or 10 Electric (if Choatic)

6) Paudron of Health: immune to disease, sickened, and nauseated

7) Necrocarnum Shroud (requires evil alignment): +1 profane bonus for 1 rd to hit/dam when adjacent creature damaged. If adjacent creature dies (like you killing them) you gain the bonus for 1 rd per target's HD.

8) Mantle of Flame: fireshield-like effect (1d6 fire damage if attacked).

9) Lucky Dice: Grant bonuses randomly.

10) Cerulean Sandles: walk on water (as the spell Water walk).

11) Bloodwar Guantlets: +1 morale bonus on melee damage.

12) Bloodtalons: same as Rage Claws

13) Adamant Pauldrons: Light Fortification property (25% chance no Crit/sneak attack).

The Glyphstone
2009-06-10, 05:52 PM
Leap attack increases the amount of bonus damage you receive from Power Attacking by 100% when charging.

1) Alone, as a Str 16, you would deal 1d10+3 damage with a weapon.
If that weapon is wielded 2-handed, you will deal 1d10+4 (1.5xStr).

2) Power Attack with a BAB of 2 will give you a maximum damage increase of +2. Power Attack with a 2-handed weapon is a 2x damage return instead of a 1x damage return, so a two-handed maximum PA will be +4 damage. Power Attack has nothing to do with your Strength score.

3) Applying Leap Attack increases 2) by 100%. In this case, that increases it by +4.

Thus, a 2-handed Max Power attack will be 1d10+4+4, 1d10+8 total.
A 2-handed Max Power Attack Leap Attack will be 1d10+4+4+4, 1d10+12 total.

Gaiyamato
2009-06-10, 09:08 PM
Leap attack increases the amount of bonus damage you receive from Power Attacking by 100% when charging.

1) Alone, as a Str 16, you would deal 1d10+3 damage with a weapon.
If that weapon is wielded 2-handed, you will deal 1d10+4 (1.5xStr).

2) Power Attack with a BAB of 2 will give you a maximum damage increase of +2. Power Attack with a 2-handed weapon is a 2x damage return instead of a 1x damage return, so a two-handed maximum PA will be +4 damage. Power Attack has nothing to do with your Strength score.

3) Applying Leap Attack increases 2) by 100%. In this case, that increases it by +4.

Thus, a 2-handed Max Power attack will be 1d10+4+4, 1d10+8 total.
A 2-handed Max Power Attack Leap Attack will be 1d10+4+4+4, 1d10+12 total.

This is correct.
Also remember that it is only of use when actually using the Power Attack. If he uses +0 for Power attack (trying to hit a high AC target) then leap attack does nothing.

I really don't quite know where you get the +63 at level 10 from.
I think mr DM here has messed up his maths on the feat.

That Psion with only a WIS of 16 has 15 PP base starting at level 4.
Energy Missile costs 3PP to manifest and targets up to 5 targets each use. It also gains extra DC and Damage Die for each 1 power piont added to it.

However, if no one is going to be getting many chances to rest I would actually be very annoyed if I was the psion as it completely invalidates him playing the class. After several encounters he is pretty screwed. More so that the barbarian is going to be.
But if he gets to rest reasonably then he will totally dominate the game.
The only real way is to not slap down the classes, which are fine of themselves.
But the allow every players to be as equally useful (or as close) as possible.

I think not allowing leap attack is more than a little unfair. I also think your maths is waay off with both the psion and the leap attack feat (in different directions).

daggaz
2009-06-11, 12:16 AM
Is the feat just written really badly as far as the english language is concerned?

It says the bonus damage from power attack is tripled if twohanding.

So if I am doing 1d8 +4 (PA2) +4 (str 16) with a normal power attack of 2,
I see 1d8 + (4*3) +4 or a total dam mod of +16.

But if you are just replacing the orginal 1:1 or 1:2 modifier with a 1:2 or 1:3 modifier, respectively (which seems a tad more balanced and less abuseable) then they really should have written that a bit more explicitly.

As in, when leap attacking two handed, your bonus damage from power attack occurs at 1:3 rather than 1:2.

At any rate, I just realized that I cannot even take this damn feat until I have 5 hit die (8 ranks in jump, so even if the DM ok's it I will have to wait a few levels. Combat reflexes is starting to look better...

Zen Master
2009-06-11, 02:47 AM
That Psion with only a WIS of 16 has 15 PP base starting at level 4.
Energy Missile costs 3PP to manifest and targets up to 5 targets each use. It also gains extra DC and Damage Die for each 1 power piont added to it.

However, if no one is going to be getting many chances to rest I would actually be very annoyed if I was the psion as it completely invalidates him playing the class.

A few points here.

He will have something along the lines of 15 pp, yes. He can go through those in a very few castings. That is his choice - he has been informed very specifically of the way I intend to play. If he choses to disregard information handed to him, that is entirely his problem - not mine. Wrong choices players mate in full awareness of the fact are their own burden to bear.

Energy missile does not give +1d damage and +1 dc pr. power point invested. I'm aware the description says so - but since that is so obviously wrong, it will follow the form of all other powers in the book: 2 pp buys an extra die and +1 dc. Hell - I might even decide to make it 4 pp.

Also, the psion doesn't have energy missile. But that's beside the point.

I'm not about to compensate players for sheer stupidity. But then again - the campaign will have numerous challenges that will be better overcome without combat. Which will look increasingly attractive the less spells and powerpoints are left. And of course, there will be opporunity to rest before boss battles - part of the challenge for the players is to wait that long with resting, since they get few opportunities. Also, I want to force them into being creative - not in how they can use spells to defeat their enemies, but how they can do it without spells.

But don't think this is totally one-sided. There will be lots and lots of times when the judicious application of spells or powers of mass destruction will be the deciding factor.

Zen Master
2009-06-11, 02:52 AM
I will just say, and I thought you knew this... I _hate_ being arbitrarily handed things because of metagaming.

.......

If I find, steal, purchase, or somehow otherwise procur a +str item, I would hope to god it follows the DMG guidelines on ability bonus items, and doesnt fill my weapon slot.

Now this is just hilarious. You hate getting things from metagaming, but you 'hope to god' you get to decide what slot the item you get from metagaming gets to fill.

The +str item may very well be a weapon. Or something else. But keep in mind - anyone can use an amulet, but only the jumpy lizard uses a longspear.

Also: I make trades with players during character creation. That's just the way it is. I want to encourage a certain style of play - in this case, I want to emphasize the use of skills - and for that reason, I seek to gently nudge people in the right direction, because making a character with 6 int in a skill heavy game might not be nearly as fun as it seems.

So ... you hate that. Ok - I don't care. Buff the str then.

daggaz
2009-06-11, 05:17 AM
Yeah, I dont like to metagame, and getting metagame solutions isnt nearly as fun as say... finding, stealing, creating, or buying a needed item on my own, especially when I dont know for certain that its coming. But I did put my int up anyhow, for the three reasons posted above.

And while I as a player dont like to metagame, it is the DM's job to do so, to a certain extent. (nobody likes enemies that inexplicably know your every weakness, of course.) There is a reason the body slot guidelines exist in the DMG, and I am in no way dictating which slot I want where, Im just saying I would hope you follow them.. especially if I got something that affects my main ability and all my main skills on an item that will constantly be removed, switched out, possibly disarmed, sundered, or even, god-forbid, fumbled (tho it seems like you dropped fumbling.) The book keeping alone should be enough to dissuade you from dropping stat mods on a weapon, but if that doesnt do it, the fact that it would be a huge pain in the ass for the player half the time comes up as well.

Zen Master
2009-06-11, 05:49 AM
I honestly don't give a damn about body slot guidelines. I see it as one of the parts of the rules that is obviously and stupidly pointless. But that's not really it.

An amulet with +str will be desirable for the ranger, the cleric and the jumpy barbarian. And there'll be just one of those. But none of the other two use that weapon.

But I can't help thinking - if a barbarian without leap attack feels so weak, maybe another character would be preferable? And if how I interpret the rules, establish the boundaries of my game and my gameworld, and how I establish game balance are so hard to swallow, then maybe another GM is preferable?

Because lets just analyse the title game master here.

Games are basically sets of rules. Change the rules and you change the game. I've stated aforehand what I consider to be the rules we play with - and change in the rules has to be ok'd by me. So that I control the changes to my game.

Master isn't a title like manager, or even executive. It's not a democratically elected representative of the people. It's more like the God-Emperor of the Imperium of Man. Now I listen to objections, I consider them, and I give me reasons for turning them down if and when I do that.

I create the game world. It will be called Eberron, and several names will be from the book - but it's my world.

I create the story. It will be told in a certain way, it will contain certain elements. I will play out challenges in certain ways, some will be combat, some will be skill tests, some will be roleplay.

I set the tone, the powerlevel, the fluff. That's what makes me the game master. Anything that will ruin - or just potentially ruin - any of that gets dismissed, hands down. It doesn't matter if the players understand my reasoning or agree with it.

Basically, I can do nothing else. I'd like someone to try to explain to me how I can accept someone elses uninformed estimate of what will mess up my game? The players have no clue what I have planned - only I know that.

Ceaon
2009-06-11, 08:20 AM
I set the tone, the powerlevel, the fluff. That's what makes me the game master. Anything that will ruin - or just potentially ruin - any of that gets dismissed, hands down. It doesn't matter if the players understand my reasoning or agree with it.

Then we have a different view on what it means to be a DM. Instead of saying to a player: "no, you can't", I instead prefer to adjust my campaign style and plans so that all players are happy.
Maybe that's not possible, but then wouldn't it be better to suggest other, equally fun, possibilities for the players you disappoint?

The Glyphstone
2009-06-11, 08:40 AM
Is the feat just written really badly as far as the english language is concerned?

It says the bonus damage from power attack is tripled if twohanding.


Leap Attack actually recieved eratta changing it to add 100% of power attack damage. Remember that multipliers in D&D don't act like multipliers in the real world. In the case of LA as written, Power Attack normally adds daamge on a 1 to 1 ratio. When 2-handing, it adds damage on a 2-1 ratio. If Leap Attacking and 2-handing, it (as the book) adds damage on a 3-1 ratio. All of which is dependent on how much penalty you take on your Power Attack.

Zen Master
2009-06-11, 09:12 AM
Then we have a different view on what it means to be a DM. Instead of saying to a player: "no, you can't", I instead prefer to adjust my campaign style and plans so that all players are happy.
Maybe that's not possible, but then wouldn't it be better to suggest other, equally fun, possibilities for the players you disappoint?

What is fun? I've done just that - I've suggested that you can jump in combat just fine without leap attack. Whether to overcome terrain or to bypass enemies that are in the way of your target, I don't care.

Now to me - that would be the point. That would be fun. Adjusting the damage output of each character is the province of the game master, not the player. Players are like rock musicians tuning their amps - they always think more is better, a lot more is a lot better.

Gaiyamato
2009-06-12, 12:21 AM
Energy missile does not give +1d damage and +1 dc pr. power point invested. I'm aware the description says so - but since that is so obviously wrong, it will follow the form of all other powers in the book: 2 pp buys an extra die and +1 dc. Hell - I might even decide to make it 4 pp.

Not that power alone, just about ALL of the damage powers follow that exact progression.
You will need to fix all of them.

But, after that is done it is a bit more balanced then.
He would only get a couple of them off and call it a day.

Also how in hell can he be an effective blaster without blasting powers? lol.

Zen Master
2009-06-12, 02:05 AM
Not that power alone, just about ALL of the damage powers follow that exact progression.
You will need to fix all of them.

But, after that is done it is a bit more balanced then.
He would only get a couple of them off and call it a day.

Also how in hell can he be an effective blaster without blasting powers? lol.

No ... almost all of them are 2 pp for 1 die increase. I possibly my memory totally deceives me. I'll check up when I get home.

Who said he doesn't get blasting powers? I said: He doesn't have energy missile. And he doesn't. He could take it later tho. For now, he has other stuff - the crystal things, if I remember correctly.

Gaiyamato
2009-06-12, 02:44 AM
No ... almost all of them are 2 pp for 1 die increase. I possibly my memory totally deceives me. I'll check up when I get home.

Who said he doesn't get blasting powers? I said: He doesn't have energy missile. And he doesn't. He could take it later tho. For now, he has other stuff - the crystal things, if I remember correctly.

Gotcha.

That 2PP per extra damage die are actually more stupid on those powers when you think about how many PP he can get at those levels and then look at the higher starting damage dice and other effects.
So 2PP is dirt cheap.

The reason the level 1 spell is 1PP is because it is supposed to scale for level 1 users who have just enough PP for a single casting +1 dice. Though of course it becomes broken beyond about level 3. lol.

Zen Master
2009-06-12, 05:50 AM
Hm - just saw his actual character sheet. The psion, that is. What he has in fact made since last I spoke with him is an egoist, who has taken expanded knowledge to get astral construct, and has those crystal powers for damage.

You know, like: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/crystalShard.htm

Not that those are bad for damage in any way.

daggaz
2009-06-12, 07:18 AM
Hokay then... so the leap attack doubles the bonus damage on the 2handed powerattack, according to the errata. I could first take the feat at 6th lvl (after I buy back my LA as well) due to the 8 ranks in jump I would need. At 6th I will have a BaB of 4, a normal power attack would give +8 damage, a leap attacking power attack would give +16.

Is 8 extra damage at lvl 6 going to break your game? A 6th lvl psion, without race, int mods, or feats, has 35 pp. With the 2pp per die houserule, he has seven shots in his arsenal where the extra dice will average to seven bonus damage. All from a safe distance, all without a chance of failure. Most likely he will have some character choices as well that augment this, naturally.

So compare that to the chance of making seven jumping charges per day, and add in the fact that I have a rather high miss chance if I am full power attacking (lowering it just means the psion has even more shots at lower damage), and each time I do it, I distance myself from the group and risk a full attack(s) from anything I land next to.

Not to mention that I would be burning a feat on the ability, and feats are of high value to non-fighter melee classes, as its pretty much the only way we can customise and specialize our characters. We dont even get a spell list to pick thru, its just "hit it with your sword."

I would argue that this is balanced, and hardly at all game breaking or power gaming.

Well... let me know if I ever get a spot in your campaign. I will be taking power attack and combat reflexes at any rate, probably do extra rage after that if there are no worthy jump feats.

The Glyphstone
2009-06-12, 07:44 AM
Yeah, with your party you won't need to rely on Power Attack charges for effective damage. In a more heavily optimized group, Shock Trooper chargers are the only way outside of ToB that melee can effectively compete damage-wise, but you won't have that issue, so Leap Attack isn't nearly as crucial for you as it would be otherwise. Go for fun stuff like Destructive Rage (+8 to break objects in rages, effectively +16 Str when trying to break stuff!).

daggaz
2009-06-12, 08:06 AM
Its not so much I am trying to do as much damage as everyone else (tho I dont want to be at the bottom of the suck-pool), its that I want a cool reason to use my jumping ability in battle.

Leap attack as errated hits both desires with one stone.. I up my damage a bit on special attacks, so I have something that compares with, say, a psionic blast, and as well I do this by actually jumping, which is sweet, since the lizardman with maxed ranks in jump is pretty good at jumping.

And all the while remaining well-balanced.. I cannot spam the attack constantly due to normal battle constraints and it carries a certain amount of risk as explained, and it doesnt outstrip a normal vanila psion either.

I saw destructive rage.. Didnt really strike my fancy, nor did it seem entirely useful.

The Glyphstone
2009-06-12, 08:17 AM
It's not useful, or very rarely is. It is cool though.

I think there's a feat out there somewhere that removes the need to get a running start before making a Jump check, you might like that.

daggaz
2009-06-12, 08:29 AM
yeah... it was mentioned in this thread already. It was my alternative suggestion to leap attack, and it was shot down as the DM "dislikes hyper-mobility."

Ceaon
2009-06-12, 09:13 AM
What is fun? I've done just that - I've suggested that you can jump in combat just fine without leap attack. Whether to overcome terrain or to bypass enemies that are in the way of your target, I don't care.

Now to me - that would be the point. That would be fun. Adjusting the damage output of each character is the province of the game master, not the player. Players are like rock musicians tuning their amps - they always think more is better, a lot more is a lot better.

Fun is when players want to play your game.
Daggaz doesn't seem to be having fun. That's the province of the game master - to make sure everyone is having fun and accepts your calls as game master.

In short, in this campaign where most enemies have low HP and a lot of stuff isn't how it is in 'normal Dnd' (even though I think I do like your setting), certain classes become a lot less useful, while other classes become much stronger.
Multiple targetting vs HP becomes a lot better (one fireball and all 6 HP guys are dead) and single targetting for massive damage suddenly sucks, except against a few high HP enemies (but it is banned because of that). Spells like sleep and stuff stay on the high-powered side, and I think you've banned those too?

I think you are lucky you have upset only one player, because you are expecting them to listen to you as though you control the game (a game which you've severly altered). You don't control the game or the other players. IRL, you are just as much a player as the rest of them, and if someone wants to play a concept or crunch you don't like, it is your duty to help him find something else he finds satisfactory.
If you can't find something both of you see as reasonable, that's another problem entirely.

However, I also think daggaz could put a little more effort in adjusting to the new setting and finding ways to become more powerful in it. Greater Cleave becomes a lot better when there's a lot of low HP enemies to target, wouldn't you say? Rename it 'Greater Body Jump', and refluff it so you jump from one target to the next or something, maybe even add in a jump check, and there you go. Leap Attack-ish feel while still quite useful and not overpowered.

daggaz
2009-06-12, 09:29 AM
You know, I looked at cleave and greater cleave, and in a metagame sense, if its a world full of mooks, they arent half bad.

Except I am looking for options other than "I hit it with my sword." Cleave and Greater Cleave are just that. "I hit it with my sword. Again. Ooh and again." Honestly, I am better off relying on my iterative attacks, as they will have the exact same effect on a bunch of nearby mooks.

As is, I will be wielding a reach weapon and taking combat reflexes, so woe become any mooks who try to get past me to the casters, as I will have 3 AoO's when I nudge my dex up on 4th level.

Now sure, that is just "hitting it with your sword," but the mechanic is different. Im hitting on their turn, interupting their action, and possibly getting in some battlefield control while I am it.

As well, Ive thrown up a bunch of feats for consideration, all of which were accepted except the only two that have anything to do with my jumping ability, leap of the heavens and leapattack.. which is too bad, synergy is fun. As well, leap attack is the best feat Ive seen that gives me something different to do in battle. A special charge, that relies on jump and packs a little more punch? Sure sounds cool!

Im hardly going to quit out and sulk in the corner if I dont get it, but it would be a bummer of a hit to my character, as far as I am concerned.

Zen Master
2009-06-12, 10:05 AM
Fun is when players want to play your game.
Daggaz doesn't seem to be having fun. That's the province of the game master - to make sure everyone is having fun and accepts your calls as game master.

First session was yesterday. Everyone had fun. Everyone accepted my calls as GM. The game flowed the way I want it to - emphasizing that the players are powerful enough to cut swathes through low-level henchmen, but seriously threatened by powerful enemies.

Now - the thing is that Daggaz isn't in the campaign right now. I'm expecting one of more players to drop out because of real-life issues - they have children and wives and a couple live far-ish away.

It's my job as GM to create a game that's fun. It is. If I start changing what I know works, it almost certainly wont be. That's why I don't.


In short, in this campaign where most enemies have low HP and a lot of stuff isn't how it is in 'normal Dnd' (even though I think I do like your setting), certain classes become a lot less useful, while other classes become much stronger.
Multiple targetting vs HP becomes a lot better (one fireball and all 6 HP guys are dead) and single targetting for massive damage suddenly sucks, except against a few high HP enemies (but it is banned because of that). Spells like sleep and stuff stay on the high-powered side, and I think you've banned those too?

I think you are lucky you have upset only one player, because you are expecting them to listen to you as though you control the game (a game which you've severly altered). You don't control the game or the other players. IRL, you are just as much a player as the rest of them, and if someone wants to play a concept or crunch you don't like, it is your duty to help him find something else he finds satisfactory.
If you can't find something both of you see as reasonable, that's another problem entirely.

However, I also think daggaz could put a little more effort in adjusting to the new setting and finding ways to become more powerful in it. Greater Cleave becomes a lot better when there's a lot of low HP enemies to target, wouldn't you say? Rename it 'Greater Body Jump', and refluff it so you jump from one target to the next or something, maybe even add in a jump check, and there you go. Leap Attack-ish feel while still quite useful and not overpowered.

Daggaz is doing a fine job of adjusting. We're just bogged down here on the one feat, and it's seems slightly difficult to resolve. I know why I'm saying no, it's mainly a control issue - I don't want a one-shotter able to go anywhere on the battlefield, which is also the issue with hyper mobility. It is also the reason why flight will be a risky proposition. For the style of game I want, I need to be able to control the battlefield. Sure, I could compensate easily, but that affects everything else - if enemies have better gear, then they drop better gear. And that screw just keeps turning - so that's simply not happening.

Further it's untrue that casters will become more powerful because there are numerous low-level enemies. In fact, quite the opposite is the fact - they will burn their powerful AoE and be running on empty soon enough, while cleave never stops working. That's pretty much the point, that's why I'm doing it - the fact that no one listens to me and takes cleave is another matter entirely. In time, they will learn.

Gaiyamato
2009-06-12, 10:11 AM
Hm - just saw his actual character sheet. The psion, that is. What he has in fact made since last I spoke with him is an egoist, who has taken expanded knowledge to get astral construct, and has those crystal powers for damage.

You know, like: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/crystalShard.htm

Not that those are bad for damage in any way.

It costs 1 PP to manifest and increases a damage die per pp. It is actually slightly worse than the energy damage spells for pure raw damage.
The others offer a save for half damage (or ignore extra effects). This requires an attack roll which is easily boosted by a psion.
though it has less targets which is a bonus. Making it slightly weaker in your campaign world.

As for constructs. Given how you described your game going, he will only be able to manifest the temporary weaker ones. lol.
So I cannot seeing that being a massive issue for a while. :P
Later on though he could build a small force of them.



I know why I'm saying no, it's mainly a control issue - I don't want a one-shotter able to go anywhere on the battlefield, which is also the issue with hyper mobility.

He has neither hyper mobility nor the ability to one shot. The feat you are denying him gives him neither of those things.

Your psion on the other hand has both.

It just seems completely hypocritcal to me.

Also at higher levels, particularly once he has well over 100P the Psion will completely dominate the game or force you to throw large numbers of higher CR stuff against him which will quite quickly see mister leaping lizard here, given he is a front line grunt, die. Die horridly. While the psion will likely still manage to survive. Or alternatively the Psion is going to massacre everything and your other players will just go to sleep. :P

Sure there are ways around that, you have mentioned a couple already.
However compared to the psion Leap Attack without any of the other bits that go with it to break it, is a very lame feat. He is only taking it for flavour. lol.

One other thing you won't be able to solve very easily is that at level 10 The lizard will still be dealing the same damage per hit. But the Psion, and even the rogue will be dealing large dice pools of damage for each attack, and find it easier to pull the attacks off as well.
This is already almost the case at level 4 as it is. :P

daggaz
2009-06-12, 12:36 PM
Daggaz is doing a fine job of adjusting. We're just bogged down here on the one feat, and it's seems slightly difficult to resolve. I know why I'm saying no, it's mainly a control issue - I don't want a one-shotter able to go anywhere on the battlefield, which is also the issue with hyper mobility.

...blahblahblah =)..

That's pretty much the point, that's why I'm doing it - the fact that no one listens to me and takes cleave is another matter entirely. In time, they will learn.

Leap attack does not give me hypermobility OR oneshotedness.
-mobility: my mobility remains completely unchanged. I can charge a forty foot distance. If I need to, I can make some pretty impressive jump checks in that charge. All of that is core abilities, and I will be pushing hard to get that movement up to 50ft before too many levels.
-oneshot?: as mentioned before, I cant take the feat until 6th lvl, at which point it gives me a maximum of 8 more damage than normal on a successful leapattack. Thats hardly oneshotting, but it is a fun reason to try the attack.

As to the fact that high mobility annoys you.. I really hope you arent going to gimp me constantly simply because you want to be able to hold us down and control things. High mobility is the hallmark of barbarians, mechanically even more so than rage. Its the huge weakness of fighters, but then, they get a zillion feats. We dont, but we dont get caught with our armor around our ankles on the battlefield, either. Its supposed to be a balanced tradeoff. Gimping me there would be nerfing an already weak class in one of its only good spots.

Cleave. I heard you loud and clear about cleave. I think cleave etc is boring. As well, I can simulate the effect with a reach weapon, a high dex, and combat reflexes, combined as well with the iterative attacks I will eventually get. Plus then I'm, you know, controlling the battle field. You wont be the only one attempting to do this you realize? The game is a balance between players and DM after all. Add in the fact that I will be a relatively high AC tank (10 + 3dex + 4-5armor +5NA +2 spells = 25 or so) without taking magic items into consideration, and I think I have a pretty good idea how to deal with crowds of mooks.

Hell, if I get totally surrounded by low level mooks, I can just drop my weapon and full power attack with three natural weapons. I dont need or want cleave.

Ceaon
2009-06-12, 12:37 PM
First session was yesterday. Everyone had fun. (...) In time, they will learn.
It seems I was overly critical, and I apologize for that.
I still do not agree with you however, but that may largely be because your style of DMing differs greatly from the style I prefer.

I would suggest daggaz takes the great cleave chain, but to change the way those feats work:


Cleave [General]
Prerequisites
Str 13, Jump 1 rank

Benefit
If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), and you succeed on a DC 10 jump check, you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round.

Special
A fighter may select Cleave as one of his fighter bonus feats.


Great Cleave
Prerequisites
Str 13, Cleave, Power Attack, base attack bonus +4, Jump 1 rank.

Benefit
This feat works like Cleave, except that there is no limit to the number of times you can use it per round. The DC for the jump check increases by 5 each time you make an additonal attack.

Special
A fighter may select Great Cleave as one of his fighter bonus feats.



This way, the jump skill is needed and contributes, but great cleave does not become overpowered.

Hope this helps. Good luck with it!

daggaz
2009-06-12, 12:44 PM
Man... why would I take an already weak feat and bog it down with extra skill checks just for flavor? That is hardly balancing it, is it? I dont mean to sound smarmy, but that is like forcing a wizard to make a DC 25 concentration check any time he wants to apply spell focus, cuz fluff wise its hard to focus but he is good at concentrating... :smallconfused:

Ceaon
2009-06-12, 12:48 PM
Man... why would I take an already weak feat and bog it down with extra skill checks just for flavor? That is hardly balancing it, is it? I dont mean to sound smarmy, but that is like forcing a wizard to make a DC 25 concentration check any time he wants to apply spell focus, cuz fluff wise its hard to focus but he is good at concentrating... :smallconfused:

Because in this campaign, it seems Great Cleave is not a weak feat, because of all the low HP enemies you're facing.

daggaz
2009-06-12, 12:52 PM
:smallamused:

Yeah but why would I make it harder to use? Im not five years old, I would know full well that I dont really need to jump. And even then, the feat is supposedly balanced as written.. its a cop-out to assume otherwise.

Not to mention that with my three natural weapons, only one of which is secondary, I can practically whirlwind attack without the feat. Power attacking on top of it, and they had better have some hps or they will be dropping three at a time, and thats without burning two feats. Add to that the fact that up to three will die just approaching my scaly ass thanks to reach weapons and combat reflexes, and we feel fairly confident that cleave + great cleave are not such great feats, after all.

Dont mean to ride you or anything, I understand you are just trying to help. Damn... I really want to start playing the green ninja, today!

Ceaon
2009-06-12, 12:57 PM
It was just a suggestion :smallsmile:. You said you wanted your jump skill to benefit you.

If both you and your DM think you can take the feat as written, then by all means do so! Or if you feel the feats don't benefit you, then also remember that Leap Attack probably won't either.

Enjoy playing your character!

Zen Master
2009-06-13, 05:07 AM
It seems I was overly critical, and I apologize for that.
I still do not agree with you however, but that may largely be because your style of DMing differs greatly from the style I prefer.

I would suggest daggaz takes the great cleave chain, but to change the way those feats work:

This way, the jump skill is needed and contributes, but great cleave does not become overpowered.

Hope this helps. Good luck with it!

While Daggaz doesn't, I like your suggestions. Although, making multiple jumps in a round could potentially give a rather tiresome level of mobility, and with a high enough jump check it would be possible to level an entire battlefield in a single round (well, theoretically anyhow).

Zen Master
2009-06-13, 05:23 AM
Leap attack does not give me hypermobility OR oneshotedness.
-mobility: my mobility remains completely unchanged. I can charge a forty foot distance. If I need to, I can make some pretty impressive jump checks in that charge. All of that is core abilities, and I will be pushing hard to get that movement up to 50ft before too many levels.
-oneshot?: as mentioned before, I cant take the feat until 6th lvl, at which point it gives me a maximum of 8 more damage than normal on a successful leapattack. Thats hardly oneshotting, but it is a fun reason to try the attack.

As to the fact that high mobility annoys you.. I really hope you arent going to gimp me constantly simply because you want to be able to hold us down and control things. High mobility is the hallmark of barbarians, mechanically even more so than rage. Its the huge weakness of fighters, but then, they get a zillion feats. We dont, but we dont get caught with our armor around our ankles on the battlefield, either. Its supposed to be a balanced tradeoff. Gimping me there would be nerfing an already weak class in one of its only good spots.

Cleave. I heard you loud and clear about cleave. I think cleave etc is boring. As well, I can simulate the effect with a reach weapon, a high dex, and combat reflexes, combined as well with the iterative attacks I will eventually get. Plus then I'm, you know, controlling the battle field. You wont be the only one attempting to do this you realize? The game is a balance between players and DM after all. Add in the fact that I will be a relatively high AC tank (10 + 3dex + 4-5armor +5NA +2 spells = 25 or so) without taking magic items into consideration, and I think I have a pretty good idea how to deal with crowds of mooks.

Hell, if I get totally surrounded by low level mooks, I can just drop my weapon and full power attack with three natural weapons. I dont need or want cleave.

More and more, it looks to me like what you really object to is me controlling the game.

Let me just be crystal clear on that: That's not going to change, in any way, ever.

Mobility has nothing to do with leap attack. There - I've said it, so you can stop repeating it.

You can one-shot - there's no point in trying to tell me otherwise, I know better than you. That's not necessarily because of leap attack alone, but I never said it was. But leap attack will add to this problem, which is why you're not getting it.

Regarding mobility, I'm not gimping you. You keep bringing that up, but I have gimped you in no way what so ever - you have asked for things I've stated way in advance are subject to GM approval. You didn't get it.

Also, claiming mobility is the hallmark of barbarians is BS. Anyone can take the feats for it, fighters more easily than barbarians, but real mobility comes from tumble, which barbarians don't get.

You don't want cleave? Don't take it. You think combat reflexes will be as good? Take that then. You power on down the road thinking all your assumptions will be correct - they wont.

Oh, and three natural attacks pr. round. What - is that supposed to impress me? I have far more mooks than you have full attacks.

It's as if I'm simply not getting through here. I will throw hundreds - quite, quite literally hundreds - of enemies at you. The game is not about killing them, but about handling them. Either by avoiding them, luring them into kill zones, or whatever.

That's an example, by the way. Not every combat will feature hordes of cannon fodder - but some will. Some fights will be best avoided, some will require careful planning to be winnable, some will force a retreat ... and so on and so on.

daggaz
2009-06-13, 05:48 AM
You were the one who kept bringing up mobility as a reason not to include leapattack. Several times. I could quote you again, but whats the point.

Mobility IS a hallmark of barbarians. There are no core feats that improve a characters speed in battle. Bringing a rogue's tumble into it is just changing the subject, as well as your initial point, as I was commenting on the fact that "high mobility annoys you."

If adding 8 damage to an attack will significantly increase the chance of oneshotting a monster, then the monster had almost no hitpoints to begin with, and thus, oneshotting it or not should be of little consequence to the game.

Its seems more and more that you are out there to heavily control this game and to prove a point to the players should they not follow your style to a T. This is not my kind of game. Not that I am in it anyhow, but I am out. Have fun. You can roll up a thrallherd or something instead and NPC it in my stead. I am sure it will suit your game fine.

Gaiyamato
2009-06-13, 05:57 AM
Actually Barbarians are meant to be mobile.. hence the extra movement....

Acromos. I think you are playing a different version of D&D from the rest of us. :P

Zen Master
2009-06-13, 09:05 AM
Actually Barbarians are meant to be mobile.. hence the extra movement....

Acromos. I think you are playing a different version of D&D from the rest of us. :P

No - I just don't agree with you. Barbarians are mediocre as far as mobility goes. Monks and rogues are far superior. Being able to run a few feet further each round makes very little difference in most situations I can readily think of.

Zen Master
2009-06-13, 09:19 AM
If adding 8 damage to an attack will significantly increase the chance of oneshotting a monster, then the monster had almost no hitpoints to begin with, and thus, oneshotting it or not should be of little consequence to the game.

Its seems more and more that you are out there to heavily control this game and to prove a point to the players should they not follow your style to a T. This is not my kind of game. Not that I am in it anyhow, but I am out. Have fun. You can roll up a thrallherd or something instead and NPC it in my stead. I am sure it will suit your game fine.

It's not 8 points of damage. It's 8 points multiplied by whatever number of attacks you manage to attain, multiplied by possible crits - in addition to your normal damage, which should be quite fine in it's own right.

You happen to think your damage will be low. I happen to know for a fact it wont be - because that is something I control.

As game master, I set the tone and style. If you don't want to play that tone and style, you don't have to. I have stated, upfront, from the very beginning, that only phb, dmg, mm and eberron are in play. You don't like that? Well - you knew well in advance, so this whole discussion is pointless.

And ... I want to 'heavily control' this game? Because you don't get what you want? Children react that way. The other players have uttered not a single word of complaint. In fact, they had a good deal of praise for the first session - not that I couldn't mess it up over time.

The way I see it, you lack faith in me as a GM. Which is fine - others don't, but you're entirely entitelled to that view. And you want greater control, more sources and the ability to set your own power level, which I simply cannot deliver.

daggaz
2009-06-13, 09:25 AM
man... Its not worth even arguing over. I am dropping this entire discussion now that you have started flaming me. Later.

Zen Master
2009-06-13, 10:03 AM
man... Its not worth even arguing over. I am dropping this entire discussion now that you have started flaming me. Later.

It's a long time since you began flaming me. I call it childish to be upset when denied something you want - especially when you were informed in advance.

If you can find a fault in my reasoning, I'll gladly hear it explained.

You are asking me to change the game I'm playing to suit you. It should, honestly, be obvious it's not going to happen. Especially after three pages of me repeating exactly that.

hamishspence
2009-06-13, 10:11 AM
Concerning Energy Missile, and a few of the other powers, they were corrected in Complete Psionic- to +1 DC per 2d6 extra damage.

Gaiyamato
2009-06-13, 10:25 AM
No - I just don't agree with you. Barbarians are mediocre as far as mobility goes. Monks and rogues are far superior. Being able to run a few feet further each round makes very little difference in most situations I can readily think of.

They have the same movement and combat flexibility! o_O
Barbarian is just as mobile, often more so, than monk and rogues.
Nearly always more so than rogues.
Sure the class over-all is weak. But it's only actual strong point is it's mobility. The idea is that Barbarian is an agressive high damage dealing mobile tank. Which he isn't. He is just mobile and in some cases marginally more useful than a fighter. lol.

Which is why I said you seem to be playing a different version of D&D to the rest of us, because you must be looking at a completely different class than the rest of us.

By denying him some of his tiny selection of actually useful feats for both his race and class because you are scared of him maybe sometimes dealing an extra half dozen damage when he gets the chance. It is just stupid.



If you can find a fault in my reasoning, I'll gladly hear it explained.


We have, repeatedly. In all of it just about. You are simply sticking your fingers in your ears and going "lalalalala".

Also looking back, I don't think anyone has actually flamed you dude (until maybe now. lol.). We are just all dumbfounded on how you came to your conclusions and ideas. You also appear completely inflexible as a DM to me.

--------------

As for energy missile at low levels it isn't the DC that is the problem, it is the fact it hits 5 targets for loads of damage dice each. Without pumping it, the spell is the same as having 5 free level 3 rogues who always flank attack in effect (using shortswords lol.). He has that power at level 1. At level 4 it is devastating. after about level 10 it's usefulness fades away though. But by then much better Powers replace it that are just as stupid.

But it isn't being used so is rather a moot point now.

Zen Master
2009-06-13, 04:06 PM
Barbarian is just as mobile, often more so, than monk and rogues.
Nearly always more so than rogues.
.......
By denying him some of his tiny selection of actually useful feats for both his race and class because you are scared of him maybe sometimes dealing an extra half dozen damage when he gets the chance.
........
It is just stupid.
........
We have, repeatedly.
........
Also looking back, I don't think anyone has actually flamed you dude (until maybe now. lol.).

High movement isn't mobility in my view - being able to dodge around dozens of enemies without provoking attacks of opportunity is.

I'm not denying him any feats he didn't know were out already when he decided to play a barbarian.

Stupid, eh? Well I've stated dozens of times and I'll repeat it for you: I know what the game is, what the challenges are - you don't. I know what will work and what wont - you don't. And that you keep claiming to know better than me what goes on around my table? Sounds stupid to me, but maybe you're just psychic.

About reasoning, you just missed the point. I explained why I consider Daggaz' reaction childish, and invited him (not you, I don't much care about your view on that) to counter.

From where I stand, being accused of heavy-handed control from a guy who had all the facts in advance and just didn't wanna listen - that's flaming to me. So I called his reaction childish, which I objectively consider to be true, and he claims I'm flaming him.

In actual fact I'm disappointed and slightly sad he's reacting that way, because Daggaz' is a fine roleplayer and a fun guy. But as long as he doesn't trust me to know my game better than he does, what can I do?

Gaiyamato
2009-06-13, 09:33 PM
Meh. Fair enough.

*drops the issue*