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Choco
2009-06-08, 10:44 AM
In a campaign I am fixing to start DM'in in a few months, I have run into quite the issue regarding character starting equipment. Everyone will be starting at lvl 1, but all the players belong to a very well off militia. This does not mean they would start out loaded with magical items, but they would start out with the best mundane equipment they could logically use. This means the Paladin starting out at lvl 1 with full plate armor, for example.

The obvious answer to this is having the PC's fighting equally well armed/equipped opponents from the start, which is what I was going to do anyway, but I just know that screwing around with WBL like this will have some unintended consequences, such as a char with 12 dex wearing full plate has 19 AC, and to hit something like that a LVL 1 character with no magical modifiers needs to roll pretty damn high.

Any ideas on how I can handle this?

Artanis
2009-06-08, 10:47 AM
Is this 3e or 4e?

Telonius
2009-06-08, 11:04 AM
How you handle it depends on the particular situation. Would it be reasonable for the characters to own, but not have access to, that equipment for a few encounters? For example, surprise them at night. If you don't have Endurance, you need make sure you don't sleep in armor. Alternately, put them in situations where the armor isn't as big of a bonus - fighting creatures (or spellcasters) that use touch attacks (swarms and stirges are great for this), or who have abilities that require saves rather than attacks.

Whatever you do, make sure you mix it up. Give them a few encounters where they're unhittable. Give them a few where they're not as useful.

Choco
2009-06-08, 11:10 AM
this is 3.5e

I will definitely try to mix it up a bit, and spellcasters are already on the list for them to fight early :smalltongue:

Hal
2009-06-08, 11:13 AM
Whatever you do, make sure you mix it up. Give them a few encounters where they're unhittable. Give them a few where they're not as useful.

Exactly. One great encounter a DM used on me with a similar situation was to have a "sniper" sitting in a tree stand or other hard-to-find location and have him pick at the party with crossbow bolts from afar. That paladin in full plate is probably not very good with a bow and will not approach that sniper's nest very quickly, much less sneakily.

Choco
2009-06-08, 12:08 PM
Ah, this is great so far. As long as nothing completely game breaking comes of this I am certain it can be made to work. The sniper example is good, as I do not think anyone other than the wizard and cleric (cloistered cleric variant), and possibly the rogue, will have much in the way of ranged attacks. As my campaigns are always RP heavy, I am not too worried about this anymore, unless someone finds something game breaking about completely jacking up character wealth at first level. Also, I have no powergamers/munchkins in my group, so I am not worried about that either.

derfenrirwolv
2009-06-08, 12:21 PM
If they're going to invest 1k gold in the paladins armor, they're also going to invest it in a wand for the wizard and cleric. The distinction between magic and mundane wouldn't matter much to an army.. gear is gear.

Dagren
2009-06-08, 01:08 PM
If they're going to invest 1k gold in the paladins armor, they're also going to invest it in a wand for the wizard and cleric. The distinction between magic and mundane wouldn't matter much to an army.. gear is gear.Seriously, I think full plate is way too much for a militia. It's more like what a foot knight would wear.

Prock
2009-06-08, 01:10 PM
What if you start them in a situation where they dont have their ussual weapons? Ie cave, prison, etc.

Then just let them find or have enough money for a normal starting pacage and send them into a town.

Ianuagonde
2009-06-08, 01:14 PM
If you're concerned about WBL, you could always say the equipment is issued by the militia. That's what the real-world army / police force does.

The characters don't own the stuff, but they can use it. When they quit the militia or want to use their own stuff, they hand in the issued equipment.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-08, 01:22 PM
If you're concerned about WBL, you could always say the equipment is issued by the militia. That's what the real-world army / police force does.

The characters don't own the stuff, but they can use it. When they quit the militia or want to use their own stuff, they hand in the issued equipment.Actually, that's not what the US army does nowadays. They have to use issued equipment, even when they can buy better gear at civilian shops.

only1doug
2009-06-08, 02:50 PM
Seriously, I think full plate is way too much for a militia. It's more like what a foot knight would wear.

+1

Full plate is more than even a well equipped militia would issue to new recruits (L1 characters are not seasoned veterans, they are still recruits and thus they won't be issued plate). I'd recommend drawing the line at chainmail, anything more expensive is prohibitively expensive to give to recruits.

As they prove themselves to the militia they might be trusted with more valuable equipment, thus justifying giving the Platemail at L3 or so.

(so effectively allowing you to enforce wealth by level guidelines on the characters by making up the difference with gear issued by the militia later in their careers)

MickJay
2009-06-08, 03:25 PM
Actually, that's not what the US army does nowadays. They have to use issued equipment, even when they can buy better gear at civilian shops.

I don't think those passages were connected in the way you're interpreting it, it seems to me that the first one was about RL, the other about how to resolve issue in game.

Anyway, I'd be careful with using a crossbow sniper on a lev. 1 party, one good hit and your mage is down, with a few more (if your group is unlucky, the assassin well-hidden or not easy to get to) the assassin can climb down/come out and coup-de-grace everyone :smallbiggrin:

Also, I agree that full plate is a little too much, even for a very wealthy militia. I'd definitely draw the line at half-plate, and only issue that if the milita had a good reason to give it to the PC.

Devils_Advocate
2009-06-08, 04:39 PM
Yeah, in a standard D&D 3.5 setting, magic items are available for purchase just like mundane valuables are. Soldiers would tend to be equipped based on cost, not on whether gear is enchanted.

It might not be based exactly on list price, if for example they forge their own weapons and armor or something. But, while I'm no expert on D&D real estate, I think that a suit of full plate may be worth more than a house. If I've done my math right, its price is enough to pay an untrained laborer for over 41 years. Spending that sort of money on anything but highly elite troops probably isn't going to be cost-effective.

Curmudgeon
2009-06-08, 05:10 PM
Devils_Advocate has got the right take on this. Masterwork full plate costs 1650 gp. That price would buy +1 magic armor for classes that can't use heavy armor. Doesn't the militia include Scouts?

Requiring mundane armor, rather than having a budget for gear, is like requiring "eco-friendly" equipment when remodeling a house but having no price limits. (Sure, a water-saving faucet can save you a couple of gallons a day -- but the water savings will take 29 years to pay for the cost of the fancy faucet.) If you make artificial distinctions, expect your players to use the marketplace to remove those distinctions. They'll get all the fancy nonmagical gear you allow them, and sell it to buy the magical stuff they really want. (And if you give me three $2300 faucets, I'm going to sell them and do a budget remodel of two entire bathrooms for the price rather than just replace faucets.)

RS14
2009-06-08, 05:19 PM
But, while I'm no expert on D&D real estate, I think that a suit of full plate may be worth more than a house. If I've done my math right, its price is enough to pay an untrained laborer for over 41 years. Spending that sort of money on anything but highly elite troops probably isn't going to be cost-effective.

You are right. A simple house costs $1 000 (in a city? The SRD isn't clear here), while basic Full Plate costs $1 500.

I don't think it really matters, though. The house prices were probably pulled out of thin air with little to no regard for economics of the setting. The same can probably be said for labor prices. D&D is not a game of economics, and “These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel.” So let it fly and don't fret about the economic sense of it, unless you and your players are really into that sort of thing.

Devils_Advocate
2009-06-08, 06:07 PM
Well, I didn't know how much a house goes for in D&D. I just knew that full plate is worth A Whole Frelling Lot. That seems like enough to make it implausible for a first-level character to be equipped with it, exact numbers aside.

Now, all of this is dependent on setting. You could have a setting where all mundane gear is inexpensive. But then you have to worry about balance. Which Choco apparently is concerned with.

So I thought I'd toss out the notion that giving militia members the best available gear doesn't necessarily mean giving them the best non-magical gear; it probably means giving the best gear within a given price range, because you're working with a fixed budget, even if it's a high one. Limiting equipment availability based on cost is also likely to be more balanced.

Why, it's almost as though the game was designed to work that way! :smallwink: