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RagnaroksChosen
2009-06-08, 02:01 PM
Me and a freind are having a debate about wheather you take alternate class features like lion totem that you have to take the other alternate class features or not. Is there anywhere in any of the rules that explicetly says you have to or if you can pick and choose?

Thanks all...

I figured i'd come ask you guys seeing as you guys are realy good at knowing where those rules are..

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-08, 02:03 PM
Can you be more specific? I'm not entirely sure what you're asking.

Generally, though, for ACFs, you can't give up the same feature twice. Thus, if there are two ACFs that require you give up your fast movement, you can't have both, but if one ACF takes up fast movement, and another takes away Uncanny Dodge, then you can.

Is that what you're asking?

Again, I'm not entirely sure what you're asking...

hamishspence
2009-06-08, 02:05 PM
I think the question is- if you are, for example, a 20th level Lion Totem Barbarian, or some other alternate feature set, are all the swaps compulsary? When you reach each alternate feature, is it compulsary to take it?

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-06-08, 02:05 PM
Me and a freind are having a debate about wheather you take alternate class features like lion totem that you have to take the other alternate class features or not. Is there anywhere in any of the rules that explicetly says you have to or if you can pick and choose?

You don't have to take all of the alternate class features. I'm AFB at the moment, so I can't give you a quote, but consider this: You can have two alternate class features you can take at level 1 (like Lion Totem and something else). What happens if later in the progression both of them replace the same thing (say, both replacing Greater Rage at the same level)? That would cause a contradiction, so obviously if you can't take all of the alternate features, then you can't be forced to take any of them.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-06-08, 02:06 PM
I think the question is- if you are, for example, a 20th level Lion Totem Barbarian, or some other alternate feature set, are all the swaps compulsary? When you reach each alternate feature, is it compulsary to take it?


Yes this is the question and is there any where in the rules that says that i need a book quote if possible,

Sorry guys works killing my brain today.

Person_Man
2009-06-08, 02:21 PM
There is no reference requiring you to take all of the features in an alternate class feature chain, though using Rule 0 a DM is always free to do so if he feels its needed for balance/consistency. I personally do not require it. As long as the PC isn't trading away the same feature more then once, I'm happy to let them do whatever they want with alternate class features. And although they're not the same thing, Substitution Levels explicitly do not require you to take all of the levels.

Realms of Chaos
2009-06-08, 02:25 PM
I think I can provide four examples that can cover whatever you are asking:

Example 1: In complete champion, spiritual totem and totem manifestation are obviously related. Do you need spiritual totem for totem manifestation and do they both need to be the same animal?

No and no.
They are specifically listed as two distinct alternate class features.
Though is makes sense with flavor to go with both and to go with a single animal (the bear totem manifestation rewards you for it), you can get one ability and not the other or get a bear spiritual totem and a fox spiritual manifestation.

Example 2: If you take the fox totem totem manifestation from complete champion, can you gain a dodge bonus at 7th level, damage reduction at 10th, and more dodge bonus at 13th?

No.

No you cannot.

Totem manifestation makes you completely give up the damage reduction class feature. Not just for one level, not just when you feel like it, forever.

Example 3: What about the mimic alternate class feature from exemplars of evil? Do I need to lose my trapsense class feature?

No.
Unlike totem manifestation, this alternate class feature is something that you gain at multiple levels (Level: 1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, 18th as opposed to Level: 7th). Furthermore, it specifically says that you can reduce your bonus on trapsense by 1 to gain an additonal use. It doesn't force you.