*could* Elan actually have a decent intelligence score?

[Xesirin]

I'm not suggesting he's been faking all these years, rather, i'm taking my own interpretation of the stats that D&D uses to make the argument that Elan *could* actually have a fairly decent intelligence score....... and still act like a ditz because of a low Wisdom score.

Why?

Because for the vast majority of the comic, his actions haven't been characterized by stupid mistakes, rather, by him "not knowing enough to act otherwise."

Obviously he has no problem making logical decisions, save for the fact that his logic is often shot by his naivity and childishness. But again, I point to low wisdom for his shortcomings.

I dunno, I always saw wisdom as a measure of intellectual capability, with intelligence as a measure of intellectual through-put.

Also, if you have anything that pretty well shows his intellegence as being below a certain level, please cite it. I couldn't find anything. (and don't give me the inn scene from OtOoPC's, obviously he too thought it ironic! :smallbiggrin:)

[Shadic]

Check the Geekery Thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95005)

And here, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=211493#post211493) The Giant himself claims Elan has an Intelligence penalty.

[Omegonthesane]

I can see where you're coming from. Wisdom's more to do with awareness and such, while Intelligence is sheer 'processing power' and ability to learn and screw around with raw data, so to speak.

For example, Red Mage from 8-Bit Theater. He's undoubtedly a genius, given how complex his plans tend to be - but they're nearly always crazy enough to indicate a VERY low Wisdom. That, and being duped into thinking he has parent issues from his childhood.

EDIT: Though given Elan can't cast cantrips...

[factotum]

Elan is both low on Intelligence and Wisdom. You can't say that someone who casts an illusion of an ogre on themselves, then looks in a puddle and thinks their own reflection is an enemy ogre, is exactly high on the smarts front!

[Optimystik]

I dunno, I always saw wisdom as a measure of intellectual capability, with intelligence as a measure of intellectual through-put.

Other way around; INT is the capacity stat, and WIS (common sense) determines how well you use it. V demonstrated this clearly by charging into Xykon's throne room insufficiently buffed.

[Dagren]

EDIT: Though given Elan can't cast cantrips...I presume you are talking about when he considered being a wizard, since he most certainly can cast 0-level bard spells, and even 5th level bard spells.

[Atcote]

While the fact remains that Elan has probably quite, quite low Intelligence and Wisdom (although he may have improved these, I find it doubtful), taking his 'Evil Opposite' brother, who's wisdom is low (and perhaps charisma - would Wisdom go towards making original plans?) but intelligence is at least modernate (if poorly used), it's possible Elan has passable Wisdom but a low intelligence.

And yes, I know there is another (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) explaination for their vast, vast difference in mental capacity.

[Callista]

I think people over-estimate the effect of low INT scores, playing a character with 6 to 8 INT as though they were absolute morons.

Here's why I think it shouldn't be that way:

OK, INT scores for NPCs get rolled on 3d6. (We are assuming the special methods for PCs are because these characters are going to change the world. Typical NPCs use straight 3d6.)

So you look at 3d6, make the frequency distribution. You can match that to the frequency distribution of IQ scores. IQs are measured and normed several different ways, but the ones I looked into were close enough to each other not to matter because of the 3-18 range of INT scores. I just took the percentage of people with an IQ in different ranges (the average people in the real world), and matched it to the percentages of the dice rolls for NPCs in the D&D world.

INT IQ
18 140+
17 139
16 131
15 125
14 119
13 114
12 109
11 104
10 100
9 95
8 90
7 85
6 80
5 74
4 68
3 60

OK, so here we see that if Elan has an INT of 6 to 8, he'd match up with an IQ of 74 to 90, the upper range of which is normal and the lower part of which is still too high to be diagnosed with developmental delay. He might be a C student in school, and might be slow to learn things, but he wouldn't be really obviously dumber than anybody else. Elan's learned a lot of things, like how to use the rapier, how to come up with puns on short notice, etc. He's not that bright, but he's close enough to average that it doesn't matter that much.

The tendency of people to caricature their low INT characters into being total doofuses is probably causing people to think, "Hey, Elan isn't as stupid as all that." Well, no, he isn't, but that doesn't actually rule out having an INT of 9 or lower. "INT penalty" doesn't mean near as much, statistically, as it's made out to be when people play characters with low INTs. (Nor does it make much sense to play a guy with an INT of 14-16 as a complete and utter genius, incidentally. Bright, yes. Genius, no.)

[shadzar]

Yes. I think Elan has a decent INT. At least a 10, which would be considered above average.

[Atcote]

I agree with that fantastic theory, but that's only if you believe intelligence should be rated down to 60 - after all, what if 3 was, instead of 60, around 25-30, which I believe is the level for profound retardation?

I'm not saying that Elan is anything like that, and this is more gaming rules than 'how smart is Elan', but characters with a large intelligence penalty could indeed be played as mentally retarded, although most characters, especially those with their INT around the 6-8 mark would best be characterised as 'dim'.

[CapedLuigiYoshi]

I presume you are talking about when he considered being a wizard, since he most certainly can cast 0-level bard spells, and even 5th level bard spells.

Yeah, but those are based on Charisma. Wizard spells are Intelligence.

[NeonRonin]

I think people over-estimate the effect of low INT scores, playing a character with 6 to 8 INT as though they were absolute morons.


I agree with this sentiment wholeheartedly. My friends and I play the Savage Worlds game system, which uses die types to denote your attributes, d4 being the lowest and d12 being the highest- but because the system allows re-rolling and adding the result when you roll the highest number on the die, a d4 can theoretically produce a greater result than a d12.

Put it this way... let's say the GM asks everyone to make a Smarts check, with the target # for success being a 6. The wizard with a d12 in Smarts rolls his 12-sider... and it comes up a 5. The fighter, however, with a d4 in Smarts, rolls his max of 4, which means he gets to roll again. He rolls another 4, for a total of 8(and another reroll), and his second reroll gives him a 3, for a total of 11. In Savage World terms, he just got a success and a raise, since his 11 is at least four more than the target number of six.

The point is, in Savage Worlds it's possible for someone of lowly attributes to come through with an outstanding success, while the min-maxed godly attributes can just as easily backfire. Which is just the way it can work in the real world. (In our current 'pulp sci-fi' Savage Worlds game, I'm playing a character with low Smarts, and I never thought of playing him as a tank-brain. He has street smarts, not book smarts, which is just how I designed him.)

[Callista]

Happens with d20s, too. A range of 20 possible outcomes is pretty broad, and it swallows up an INT penalty--especially a small one--pretty handily. The guy with the -1 penalty will make a DC 10 check almost as often as the guy without a penalty.


I agree with that fantastic theory, but that's only if you believe intelligence should be rated down to 60 - after all, what if 3 was, instead of 60, around 25-30, which I believe is the level for profound retardation?If you match the percentiles for the IQ scores to the percentiles for 3d6 dice, you don't even get a match for a score that low. 25-30 is so low that it's less likely than rolling three ones on 3d6.

About one in 200 people have an IQ lower than 60; and about one in 200 3d6 dice rolls will land on three ones. I matched them by probability; the choice of 60 as the lowest cutoff wasn't arbitrary.

[Atcote]

About one in 200 people have an IQ lower than 60; and about one in 200 3d6 dice rolls will land on three ones. I matched them by probability; the choice of 60 as the lowest cutoff wasn't arbitrary.

I concede to your logic. :smallsmile:

[veti]

I think Elan has put at least one stat increase into INT, which started to shine through when he was imprisoned as Nale. He showed considerable resourcefulness in getting out of that. Ever since then, he's been pretty good at coming up with puns when required in combat, and he's made himself useful in some surprising ways.

And his WIS, I think, has always been at least average (10 or better). That's where he gets his unfailing good, pacific nature from - the man is positively brimming with natural empathy, which is a WIS quality. See this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html) for the graphic illustration.

True that the others often rib him about his lack of these stats - but what do they know? What makes us assume that Roy, for instance, can actually see Elan's character sheet?

[kusje]

If you match the percentiles for the IQ scores to the percentiles for 3d6 dice, you don't even get a match for a score that low. 25-30 is so low that it's less likely than rolling three ones on 3d6.

About one in 200 people have an IQ lower than 60; and about one in 200 3d6 dice rolls will land on three ones. I matched them by probability; the choice of 60 as the lowest cutoff wasn't arbitrary.

What IQ charts are you using? And what is the s.d. of that chart? IQ scores without their corresponding s.d. measurements are close to useless since the only common thing they share is 100 being the median.

[Callista]

Standard deviation 15.

[Atcote]

Yeah, I used two year old knowledge of Year 12 Psychology class. Yeah, I didn't claim to be an expert, just bringing up a point of view.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Query: What are the probabilities of the various scores you mentioned? We each have our favorite IQ derivation, but the score probabilities are unambiguous and could be useful.

[Callista]

http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/IQtable.aspx
Source? Google. :P

[rokar4life]

a lot of elans "idiot" moments are from him making a joke that falls beyond the fourth wall while the others are still inside of it, and them just disregarding it as him being an idiot, but there are those moments(like the ogre) that point to low int, but they can all be attributed to low wis almost as easily, and on the point of an int penalty, there are a lot of ways to get a penalty, such as a curse.

[ZeroNumerous]

OK, INT scores for NPCs get rolled on 3d6. (We are assuming the special methods for PCs are because these characters are going to change the world. Typical NPCs use straight 3d6.)

All of your math is pretty meaningless in D&D. The NPC array is 11/11/11/10/10/10 because no DM has the time or patience to roll 3d6*6 for every single NPC ever. PCs are 3d6*6, and as such suffer the possibility of having less than 100 IQ. As such, someone with an intelligence penalty is exceedingly uncommon to the point of ridiculousness. 1:10,000 or more.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Sorry; I was unclear - I meant the odds of Intelligence 3, Intelligence 4, etc. All of the websites I found are either too incomprehensible or the graph is too low resolution for good stats.

[holywhippet]

I think Elan has put at least one stat increase into INT, which started to shine through when he was imprisoned as Nale. He showed considerable resourcefulness in getting out of that. Ever since then, he's been pretty good at coming up with puns when required in combat, and he's made himself useful in some surprising ways.

I wonder if that is due to bardic knowledge checks rather than using his INT. In many cases he follows cliches and existing storylines when he needs to do something.

[Callista]

For 3d6?
OK... these are the percentage of the total that will have the given stat.
3 0.46%
4 1.39%
5 2.78%
6 4.63%
7 6.94%
8 9.72%
9 11.57%
10 12.50%
11 12.50%
12 11.57%
13 9.72%
14 6.94%
15 4.63%
16 2.78%
17 1.39%
18 0.46%

And the odds of rolling it:
3 1:216
4 1:72
5 1:36
6 1:22
7 1:14
8 1:10
9 1:9
10 1:8
11 1:8
12 1:9
13 1:10
14 1:14
15 1:22
16 1:36
17 1:72
18 1:216

I don't know how to do the 4d6 drop lowest method, though. I'm not exactly a statistician (though I'm pretty sure quite a lot of people who play D&D are...)

[Sereg]

All of your math is pretty meaningless in D&D. The NPC array is 11/11/11/10/10/10 because no DM has the time or patience to roll 3d6*6 for every single NPC ever. PCs are 3d6*6, and as such suffer the possibility of having less than 100 IQ. As such, someone with an intelligence penalty is exceedingly uncommon to the point of ridiculousness. 1:10,000 or more.

Not when I DM. I never use arrays for NPCs.

[Callista]

It depends on the NPC. There's no way I'm going to be able to pull stats out of my butt for Random Villager #457 when the PCs try to pickpocket him, so all my Random Villagers have the same stats.

Oh, and I totally figured out the 4d6 drop lowest odds, too.

3 1:1296
4 1:324
5 1:130
6 1:62
7 1:34
8 1:21
9 1:14
10 1:11
11 1:9
12 1:8
13 1:8
14 1:8
15 1:10
16 1:14
17 1:24
18 1:62

[Kish]

PCs are 3d6*6,
*cough* By default, they're 4d6-drop-lowest*6.

Also, IQ measures your ability to pass standardized tests and that's about it. Intelligence in D&D is a little more meaningful than that.

[kusje]

*cough* By default, they're 4d6-drop-lowest*6.

Also, IQ measures your ability to pass standardized tests and that's about it. Intelligence in D&D is a little more meaningful than that.

That's not what IQ is. IQ is a measure of intelligence. The tests just attempts to measure your IQ. They might be inaccurate, but your IQ itself is constant.

[factotum]

*cough* By default, they're 4d6-drop-lowest*6.


Surely that depends on the DM. A lot of DMs these days will say that the *default* is point buy, I'd guess.

[Random832]

It depends on the NPC. There's no way I'm going to be able to pull stats out of my butt for Random Villager #457 when the PCs try to pickpocket him, so all my Random Villagers have the same stats.

This is a good reason to use a laptop - it's easy throw together a bit of code in javascript in five minutes to generate a random distribution with whatever characteristics you want at the click of a button.

[Tempest Fennac]

I disagree with the idea that Wis is necessarily linked to alignment, veti; I think the effect Owls Wisdom had on Belkar was just a joke rather then a serious commentry on what Wis does. (I tend to think of Nale as having the same Wis stat as Elan, and he's pretty much a sociopath a lot of the time.)

[Optimystik]

I disagree with the idea that Wis is necessarily linked to alignment, veti; I think the effect Owls Wisdom had on Belkar was just a joke rather then a serious commentry on what Wis does. (I tend to think of Nale as having the same Wis stat as Elan, and he's pretty much a sociopath a lot of the time.)

More importantly, Redcloak has probably the highest WIS score of any mortal in the comic and he's definitely evil.

[kusje]

More importantly, Redcloak has probably the highest WIS score of any mortal in the comic and he's definitely evil.

Perhaps increased WIS scores only change your alignment when your alignment is suboptimal for you to achieve happiness.

I.e. Belkar could be happier if he were good and liked fluffy pink bunnies but Redcloak is evil because there's no other way to improve the standing of goblins.

[Tempest Fennac]

Ironically, there did seem to be other ways to help Goblins as a race, but they got messed up for reasons beyond RC's control. Thinking of RC, while I agree that he's likely to have the highest Wis of anyone, he's still prone to some decisions which suggest erros of common sense (eg: the end scene in SoD and the fact that a Hobgoblin had to die saving him before he realised he was the High Priest of the god of all the Goblins).

[Optimystik]

Perhaps increased WIS scores only change your alignment when your alignment is suboptimal for you to achieve happiness.

I.e. Belkar could be happier if he were good and liked fluffy pink bunnies but Redcloak is evil because there's no other way to improve the standing of goblins.

That stands to reason, because Wisdom represents your understanding of the universe and your place in it. So of course if you're already sure of your place and purpose (like RC is), increasing your WIS further won't cause your outlook to change.

Belkar's alignment changed when his WIS was boosted because he doesn't (or didn't, at least) put much thought behind his murderous tendencies. In OtOoPCs, he physically couldn't understand why Roy didn't want him committing homicide.

[Xesirin]

That stands to reason, because Wisdom represents your understanding of the universe and your place in it. So of course if you're already sure of your place and purpose (like RC is), increasing your WIS further won't cause your outlook to change.

Belkar's alignment changed when his WIS was boosted because he doesn't (or didn't, at least) put much thought behind his murderous tendencies. In OtOoPCs, he physically couldn't understand why Roy didn't want him committing homicide.

That's part of the arguement I made for Elan. He's Naive and clueless because he has a low wisdom score, but I made the argument for a decent intelligence because he still demonstrates a reasonable ability to make decisions, especially post-"first 120 strips".

[somnium]

That's part of the arguement I made for Elan. He's Naive and clueless because he has a low wisdom score, but I made the argument for a decent intelligence because he still demonstrates a reasonable ability to make decisions, especially post-"first 120 strips".
Perhaps he put a point in INT when he levelled up, I mean he did try to multiclass to a wizard at some point.

[Janmorel]

Elan's main problem is less an ability to learn -- with proper motivation, he actually seems to pick things up without too much trouble. But he's a bit of a ditzy blond. He lacks common sense, has a short attention span, and is very naive. I would say that his Wisdom score has increased over the course of the comic. Right now, I'd put him at around Int 8.5, Wis 7.

[Optimystik]

That's part of the arguement I made for Elan. He's Naive and clueless because he has a low wisdom score, but I made the argument for a decent intelligence because he still demonstrates a reasonable ability to make decisions, especially post-"first 120 strips".

Uh, sure.... decent intelligence... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0389.html)

[Callista]

It's not that 8-9 is such a hugely low intelligence. It's only low-average, not dumb-as-a-brick.

[veti]

That stands to reason, because Wisdom represents your understanding of the universe and your place in it.

Quite, and Elan's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) understanding (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0119.html) of (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0137.html) his place (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0160.html) in the (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0199.html) universe (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0231.html)is (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html) positively (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html) uncanny (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0558.html). Way ahead of Durkon, Redcloak or any of those saps who haven't even figured out there's a fourth wall.

[Callista]

I believe that's called Bardic Knowledge checks... Plus, Bards get a heck of a lot of skill points, and I bet Elan has his in something like Knowledge (Conventions of Storytelling). Knowing stuff doesn't mean you're intelligent. Actually, Elan's more like a milder version of a savant than anything else--you know, overall low intelligence, but one area that you're really, really good at because your brain seems to have specialized that way. Elan's specialized around drama and the rules of a good story.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

I'm not suggesting he's been faking all these years, rather, i'm taking my own interpretation of the stats that D&D uses to make the argument that Elan *could* actually have a fairly decent intelligence score....... and still act like a ditz because of a low Wisdom score.

Why?

Because for the vast majority of the comic, his actions haven't been characterized by stupid mistakes, rather, by him "not knowing enough to act otherwise."

Obviously he has no problem making logical decisions, save for the fact that his logic is often shot by his naivity and childishness. But again, I point to low wisdom for his shortcomings.

I dunno, I always saw wisdom as a measure of intellectual capability, with intelligence as a measure of intellectual through-put.

Also, if you have anything that pretty well shows his intellegence as being below a certain level, please cite it. I couldn't find anything. (and don't give me the inn scene from OtOoPC's, obviously he too thought it ironic! :smallbiggrin:)

*Sigh *

It's a game. An abstract game with 6 ability scores, a few classes and some skill and role play.

Ability scores are abstract. So a character with high wisdom is always better at casting divine spells, turning undead, resisting enchantments, spotting enemies, sensing when someone is lying, healing, and fighting with Kung Fu than the same character with a lower wisdom score. And the character increases equally well in all these areas as his wisdom increases. Similarly, a character with high intelligence is always better at casting arcane spells, crafting things, appraising things, learning languages, knowing things, and fighting like the Three Musketeers.

That's the abstract part.

A character with high Int can make bad decisions while one with a lower score can be clever.

That's the role play part.

It would be bad role-play for Elan's character in a game to say (without joking), "I start lecturing the wizard's council on the theory of Abjurations."

But it is not bad role-play for Elan to say, "Hey why don't we make nice with the island orcs?"

OotS is not a game but a story based on a role-playing game. It's OK to ask what Int score Elan has as an exercise in character building like is done in the Class and Geekery thread.

But, IMHO, it's wrong to argue that "that Elan *could* actually have a fairly decent intelligence score....... and still act like a ditz because of a low Wisdom score" because that is almost saying that the believability of the story depends on its correspondence to some arbitrary set of rules.

IMHO, the reason OotS is a compelling story is more related to who we, the readers, are as human beings than to how to best the wriet up the in the RPG.

[Kyronea]

That's not what IQ is. IQ is a measure of intelligence. The tests just attempts to measure your IQ. They might be inaccurate, but your IQ itself is constant.

No it isn't, because IQ is a measure of academic knowledge. One can improve their IQ through study.

[Callista]

Re-study that. IQ doesn't have much to do with academic knowledge. You may be thinking of ACT scores?

[Zolem]

Re-study that. IQ doesn't have much to do with academic knowledge. You may be thinking of ACT scores?

Probably, ACT is the only one of those two that change. Your IQ is constant your entire life, it literaly cannot go up or down. I mean, by your chart (excelent work by the way, I agree), my Int is 16, but my Wis is definantly in teh 6-8 range. I can come up with brilliant ideas and plan meticulously, but when presented with a need for snappy decisions, I realy just can't do it because I need a lot of fact before I can decide anything. Elan on the other hand would step up and do somthing sensible, if not optimal. I'd put Elan on your chart at 7, maybe 8 int with about 14 or more Wis. And reverse that for Nale, he's brilliant but impractical and can't really addapt quickly, just like me.

[Doug Lampert]

About one in 200 people have an IQ lower than 60; and about one in 200 3d6 dice rolls will land on three ones. I matched them by probability; the choice of 60 as the lowest cutoff wasn't arbitrary.
Alternately, IQ is supposed to be (roughly) a normal distribution with standard deviation of 15 and average of 100 (IIRC the actual average on most actual tests tends to be higher).

3d6 was chosen to give a bell curve (i.e. roughly normal) and has a standard deviation of 2.96 (close enough to 3 for government work) and has an average of 10.5.

So take your D&D value, multiply by 5, and add 47.5 and it should be fairly close.

Not surprisingly this is pretty close to your table. 3 Int corresponds to IQ 62.5, almost exactly what you got by comparing distributions. 18 Int corresponds to IQ 137.5, similarly quite close.

[Dork Lord]

I always thought you multiplied the Int score by 10 to get an actual IQ. ie a completely average 10 Int would be a 100 IQ and an Int of 18 would be an IQ of 180.

[Zolem]

I always thought you multiplied the Int score by 10 to get an actual IQ. ie a completely average 10 Int would be a 100 IQ and an Int of 18 would be an IQ of 180.

That's a hack-eyed rough estimate. The statistical table is actualy quite impressive and more scientificly acurate.

[Callista]

The multiply-by-ten method has the advantage of being very easy, but it also changes the fantasy world a great deal because of the high number of people now located at the very high or very low end. One in six would be gifted (130+)--in our world, somebody capable of becoming a doctor or a research scientist--and one in twenty would be profoundly gifted, along the lines of Newton or Edison. One in six would be mentally retarded; and about one in twenty (at <50) would not be able to live on their own or do more than very simple work.

Now think of how that changes the world. Instead of the vast majority of people having about the same cognitive ability, we have a huge number of people who are either capable of inventing calculus just because their scientific ideas required a new branch of mathematics, or else unable to button a shirt.

It's a fascinating idea, and I can think of plenty of very interesting alternate-universe settings, and the differences such a diverse intelligence spectrum might make. It's not the core D&D universe, though. Most of the variation in intelligence there comes from species to species, not from person to person.

[Doug Lampert]

That's a hack-eyed rough estimate. The statistical table is actualy quite impressive and more scientificly acurate.

Regardless of statistics: 10xInt=IQ just plain doesn't work.

Consider an adult human commoner, Int 3, level 1 (aka, as bad as it gets). He gets 2 feats and 8 skill points (minimum of 1/level + human bonus applies after the minimum).

With those abilities he could speak 3 languages fluently (buying speak language cross class) and know 4 different professions well enough to earn a pretty good living and gets skill focus twice for +3 more to two of those skills. Additionally he can perform pretty much any routine every day task.

Alternately he could have two different professions at solid professional levels with 4 ranks and +3 from skill focus.

Or he could be Wis Mod + 7 at one skill and have 4 hobbies at a level good enough that he could earn a living at them.

His checks on Int rolls are only 8 points worse than an Int 18 guy, so he actually does better on intelectual questions or problems than the 18 Int guy over 16% of the time and the same about 3% of the time (if the 18 Int guy takes 10 this changes to 10% and 5%, not all that different).

Compared to the "average guy" he'll do better on an Int roll 30% of the time and equal 4% (better 30% and tie 5% if the average guy takes 10).

The character above isn't likely to come across as being both profoundly retarded and almost completely uneducated. But if Int 3 is IQ 30 and Commoner 1 is the worst possible education in a society that hasn't invented public schools yet then profoundly retarded and completely uneducated is about what should come out of an IQ 30 commoner 1.

Conclusion; In D&D land int 3 is perfectly functional and perfectly capable of learning by doing or from experience or an apprenticeship. His skills are only marginally worse than anyone else's, his checks simply aren't that bad.

Just as Str 1 doesn't represent bedridden, Dex 1 doesn't represent such sever palsy that you can't pick things up, Con 1 doesn't represent actual hemophilia + a serious immune deficiency, and Wis 1 doesn't represent blind and deaf; but rather each of the above represents a fairly low but functional level, so Int 3 is low but functional. Actual severe disabilities don't come off the dice rolls in D&D land.

DougL

[hamishspence]

In which case, there is a BIG jump between Int 2 and Int 3, that isn't seen anywhere else. Int 2 covers a wide range of animals, many of which are not what one would call bright.

[factotum]

Trouble is, you can't really compare D&D stats to the real world, because D&D characters are pretty much superhuman. For instance: because fall damage caps at 20d6, a level 14 fighter like Roy would have a better than average chance of surviving a fall of any distance (provided he wasn't already damaged, as he unfortunately was when Xykon blasted him off the dragon). There are isolated incidents of people surviving long falls in the real world, but they generally rely on the person in question being lucky enough to hit something that slows their fall before making contact with the ground--e.g. smashing down through the branches of a tree, or something. My example D&D fighter could reasonably expect to fall 30,000 feet onto bare rock and survive!

[Callista]

In which case, there is a BIG jump between Int 2 and Int 3, that isn't seen anywhere else. Int 2 covers a wide range of animals, many of which are not what one would call bright.Yes, that's one place where it breaks down. People have estimated that if you could give a dog an IQ test (think German shepherd, not an inbred chihuahua), it would score about 20-30; a chimp or a dolphin might score a little higher, maybe 40s. Because INT 2 is impossible to roll on 3d6, and the lowest PC INT score would be in the 60s, there's a large gap between Animal intelligence at 1 or 2 and Human intelligence. But many ideas break down at their extremes. And IQ tests aren't even any good at measuring IQs above 140 (people simply hit the top of multiple subscales and make the score invalid), or below about 30 (and even above that you have to use children's tests and adjust for age)... on top of that, it's really difficult to norm your test to include people at the extremes, because the sample you use to test will be mostly average, so the more extreme you get the more inaccurate it is.

And don't get me started on what happens when you test people who don't have a single overall level of intelligence that applies to everything, who can actually score genius on one sub-scale and retarded on another (common example: learning disabilities like dyslexia). From what I know about it, IQ doesn't seem to reflect intelligence nearly as well as people think it does, especially when a person has an unusual sort of brain. It's most relevant in the average range with a person whose skills are all pretty close to the same level... which is, ironically, the group of people who need testing the least, because that's the group the education system is already designed for!

[HamsterOfTheGod]

In which case, there is a BIG jump between Int 2 and Int 3, that isn't seen anywhere else. Int 2 covers a wide range of animals, many of which are not what one would call bright.

And this is a problem because the real test of a role-playing game is not its playability but how smooth a mathematical function can be fitted to an arbitrary ability scores.

Few know that the 1st edition of AD&D was an utter failure. It's demise was caused by the incomprehensibility of its Strength score. A characters lifting capacity was a direct linear relationship to the characters Strength score...that is from 3 to 18. Then at 18, you rolled percentile dice (01-00)...but only if you were a fighter. The percentile dice put you into one of 6 percentile categories which increased your lifting capacity by a square factor. A Strength score of 19 was humanly unattainable short of a Wish. But Trolls had a 19 score and that was a huge jump in lifting capacity over 18/00. Each point above that gave an incredible increase in lifting capacity. At 21, you had "godlike" Strength score but even gods were capped at a maximum of 25...yes even Thor.

This all led to 2nd edition which failed with the Comeliness stat.

Third edition, as we have seen, fails with Intelligence...and this led directly to 4th edition.

[hamishspence]

Wouldn't necessarily call it a problem, just Int being a little grainy at the animal level, and it being hard to represent the difference between animals with quite different intelligence levels.

Graininess is perhaps to be expected at some levels.

[Dagren]

Probably, ACT is the only one of those two that change. Your IQ is constant your entire life, it literaly cannot go up or down. I mean, by your chart (excelent work by the way, I agree), my Int is 16, but my Wis is definantly in teh 6-8 range. I can come up with brilliant ideas and plan meticulously, but when presented with a need for snappy decisions, I realy just can't do it because I need a lot of fact before I can decide anything. Elan on the other hand would step up and do somthing sensible, if not optimal. I'd put Elan on your chart at 7, maybe 8 int with about 14 or more Wis. And reverse that for Nale, he's brilliant but impractical and can't really addapt quickly, just like me.Int 16? Nice. I'm guessing you're a wizard then. :smallwink: By the way, is there an easy way to find out IQ, or does it not lend itself well to online tests? I had mine tested years ago, but I have no idea what the result was, and I think it would be neat to know my Int score. :smallbiggrin:

[Super_slash2]

I think Elan has a low Int score but a higher Wisdom score.

Elan acts like an idiot when it comes to things like plans, comprehension and concentration.

But Elan has many times asked very deep and philosophical questions.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0068.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0069.html : panel 2

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0231.html : his conversation with Roy
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0596.html : this whole thing

The point I'm trying to make is not that he's smart, sometimes he doesn't know what to do, even after thinking about it or to grasp some of the key ideas involved. But that, he tries very hard to understand what is good and what is wrong, what is appropriate and what isn't. And when he does get into an argument, he knows when someone is trying to hoodwink him and when someone isn't. Unlike V who is smart but does not ever question his own actions. Elan actually has some philosophical musings from time to time, he just lacks comprehension of some of the terms involved. Actually fully shown in this one - http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0597.html - he understands that V is devaluing Therkla and that it would be wrong to lie to Hinjo but fails to understand V is threatening him because he can't grasp the wording of the threat.

**Minor Spoilers**

Similarly, Red Cloak uses his Wisdom to understand his and the goblins' place in the world and how they need to advance. In SoD, he understood how Xykon was abusing his power as leader and mid-way, realized that it might be nice to hold off his revenge and enjoy his life (the fact it failed isn't really his fault). He has not only shown planning but also understanding of what's involved and what is at stake. Even at the end, when Xykon is talking down to him, he goes along with what he says but he understands the meaning behind every word. The fact he accepted it anyway is a sign of his personality, his Wisdom score probably wasnt high enough and seriously, his backstory is quite harsh by that point.

[Callista]

Int 16? Nice. I'm guessing you're a wizard then. :smallwink: By the way, is there an easy way to find out IQ, or does it not lend itself well to online tests? I had mine tested years ago, but I have no idea what the result was, and I think it would be neat to know my Int score. :smallbiggrin:There are online IQ tests, but they aren't very much like the real thing, especially since online tests are limited by the medium--a computer screen--and often are multiple choice or dependent on your having learned how to do certain sorts of puzzles. The ones I've taken have been as much as 20 points off the official testing I got done, which is too much to make them worthwhile as an actual reflection of a person's IQ. Real life IQ tests are much less dependent on how much you have been exposed to doing puzzles; the instructions are pretty much straightforward and the problems just get harder until you can't do them anymore. For example, you might be asked to memorize a list of numbers and letters and repeat them back in alphabetical and numerical order; or to put together a puzzle; or to arrange blocks into a certain pattern.

There seems to be, however, a relatively good correlation between your SAT score and your IQ, percentile-wise. If you've ever taken the SAT, that might be a good way to get a rough estimate. http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/GREIQ.aspx

[Xesirin]

Uh, sure.... decent intelligence... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0389.html)

We didn't ACTUALLY see Elan's plan put into action. it may have been convoluted, but it may have worked. :smallbiggrin:

Besides, it's the same way highly intellectual engineers can develop extremely complicated designs for a device or program to work, and still have it fail utterly when executed.

[Dagren]

There are online IQ tests, but they aren't very much like the real thing, especially since online tests are limited by the medium--a computer screen--and often are multiple choice or dependent on your having learned how to do certain sorts of puzzles. The ones I've taken have been as much as 20 points off the official testing I got done, which is too much to make them worthwhile as an actual reflection of a person's IQ. Real life IQ tests are much less dependent on how much you have been exposed to doing puzzles; the instructions are pretty much straightforward and the problems just get harder until you can't do them anymore. For example, you might be asked to memorize a list of numbers and letters and repeat them back in alphabetical and numerical order; or to put together a puzzle; or to arrange blocks into a certain pattern.

There seems to be, however, a relatively good correlation between your SAT score and your IQ, percentile-wise. If you've ever taken the SAT, that might be a good way to get a rough estimate. http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/GREIQ.aspxAh, that's too bad. I did SATS once, but it was about 10 years ago, so I don't really remember what I got on them either. I seem to recall 15-hundred-something, but I also thought the IQ test came a bit higher than that chart would suggest.

...

Checking the chart you made, it isn't really relevant, since if either of the numbers I remember are accurate, I'm already off it. Woah. I wonder if it's a coincidence that Wizard is my favoured class too?

[Callista]

1500-something on the SAT is pretty good, if you're not counting the writing portion... Of course, the SAT/IQ correlation is decent, but the SAT/GPA correlation, not so much; I mean, it exists, but it isn't as significant as you'd think... Apparently you can be quite intelligent and only an average student, or a very good student with average intelligence, simply because there's much more to being a good student than brainpower. Takes willpower too, and organization, and in many cases social skills to interact with profs and classmates and work on team projects.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a high rate of giftedness among D&D players. People who tend to be talented in the area of processing information would be more likely to choose a pastime that requires the processing and integrating of large amounts of information, as D&D does, as well as a reasonable amount of logic and creativity. (We also tend to be extremely nerdy, but you can't have everything...)

[Zolem]

1500-something on the SAT is pretty good, if you're not counting the writing portion... Of course, the SAT/IQ correlation is decent, but the SAT/GPA correlation, not so much; I mean, it exists, but it isn't as significant as you'd think... Apparently you can be quite intelligent and only an average student, or a very good student with average intelligence, simply because there's much more to being a good student than brainpower. Takes willpower too, and organization, and in many cases social skills to interact with profs and classmates and work on team projects.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a high rate of giftedness among D&D players. People who tend to be talented in the area of processing information would be more likely to choose a pastime that requires the processing and integrating of large amounts of information, as D&D does, as well as a reasonable amount of logic and creativity. (We also tend to be extremely nerdy, but you can't have everything...)

C average student, 98% percentile for my year, 92% percentile for the nation. I could just never knuckle down and do the work.

[Yenkaz]

Bards get 6+int bonus skill points pr level.

Humans get 1 extra skill points pr level.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0002.html Elan got 6 skill points, which points to a int score of 8-9, at least in the beginning of the comic.

[Bibliomancer]

Another thing to keep in mind where attempting to match intelligence score ranges with real-world IQ scores is that unless stated otherwise the default for an NPC is to have a 10 or 11 in each stat. As a result, any variation from this standard is at the DM's discretion and therefore NPCs are not as a rule rolled using 3d6*6. Elite NPCs use the elite array and common NPCs use non-elite array if variation is required.

As a result, hypothetically in the 'standard' world the smartest first level NPC would have an intelligence score of 15, making it quite reasonable to equate this to an IQ score of 150 (a low-level genius). PC wizards and monsters would thus be the only people with the potential to become the next Einstein or Newton.

[Janmorel]

Bards get 6+int bonus skill points pr level.

Humans get 1 extra skill points pr level.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0002.html Elan got 6 skill points, which points to a int score of 8-9, at least in the beginning of the comic.

Nice catch! Seems to agree with what the majority is saying -- the bard's slightly dimmer than average, but not insurmountably so.

[Zorack]

Hahahahahahahaha

[Azura]

Bards get 6+int bonus skill points pr level.

Humans get 1 extra skill points pr level.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0002.html Elan got 6 skill points, which points to a int score of 8-9, at least in the beginning of the comic.

Actually, this conjecture has already been disproven.

Taken from the FAQ of the Class and Level Geekery thread:
Q. In Comic 2, Elan praises his "six new skill points". Since human bards get 7+Int skill points per level, doesn't this mean that he has an Int penalty of -1 and an Intelligence of 8 or 9?
A. No. According to the Giant, he's referring to the the new rule for bards and skill points, which is 6/level (not including racial and ability bonuses), and that's 7+Int skill points per level, not per edition conversion. Elan hadn't just gained a level.

[Foryn Gilnith]

That doesn't make it impossible.

[Azura]

Of course it doesn't. It could still be true, just not because of that particular argument. :smallsmile:

[Callista]

Another thing to keep in mind where attempting to match intelligence score ranges with real-world IQ scores is that unless stated otherwise the default for an NPC is to have a 10 or 11 in each stat. As a result, any variation from this standard is at the DM's discretion and therefore NPCs are not as a rule rolled using 3d6*6. Elite NPCs use the elite array and common NPCs use non-elite array if variation is required.

As a result, hypothetically in the 'standard' world the smartest first level NPC would have an intelligence score of 15, making it quite reasonable to equate this to an IQ score of 150 (a low-level genius). PC wizards and monsters would thus be the only people with the potential to become the next Einstein or Newton.That's your basic NPC, though, not an NPC of any importance. The guy running the potion shop is probably going to be an Adept with a decent INT. The King's probably going to be a decent leveled Aristocrat with a good CHA. Joe Commoner can use standard array, but there's more variation in life than that, and I think it'd make the game world more boring if everyone had the same stats. How am I supposed to have the party meet the dumb, strong tavern brawler or the clumsy, intelligent acolyte or the beautiful but frail princess, if I can't give them ability scores to match? Nope. The standard array is a simplification for the purpose of generating NPCs quickly. If anybody with an INT of 12 or above, or 9 or below, is necessarily a PC, then there's a lot less variation than anybody wants.

[Bibliomancer]

I agree that this would make things boring, which is why the elite array exists. It adds up to a 25 point buy, which is roughly normal for 4d6*6. So, someone with an Int of 15 could be quite intelligent (especially if you assume this equals an IQ of 150). It's also interesting to note that the standard deviation for IQ (which is around 15 points) is approximately the same as every +1 bonus to Intelligence modifier (+2 or +20 IQ points), indicating that the Intelligence score x 10 = IQ could have some mechanical basis.

Also, someone with an elite array could be quite varied and fulfill the archetypes you mentioned. The important thing to keep in mind is the assumption that anyone who has had their scores rolled is probably going to be a custom NPC, which make up at most 1% of the game world. Assuming these custom NPCs also roll 4d6*6 (which I believe someone mentioned results in an 18 once every 64 times), this could result in 1 in 6400 people having an Intelligence score of 18, which is quite reasonable.

[war_illithid]

Trouble is, you can't really compare D&D stats to the real world, because D&D characters are pretty much superhuman. For instance: because fall damage caps at 20d6, a level 14 fighter like Roy would have a better than average chance of surviving a fall of any distance (provided he wasn't already damaged, as he unfortunately was when Xykon blasted him off the dragon). There are isolated incidents of people surviving long falls in the real world, but they generally rely on the person in question being lucky enough to hit something that slows their fall before making contact with the ground--e.g. smashing down through the branches of a tree, or something. My example D&D fighter could reasonably expect to fall 30,000 feet onto bare rock and survive!

Surprisingly enough, you can survive a fall from maximum velocity, even without anything like tree branches to slow you down. If, somehow you do end up free falling thousands of feet you will probably die (definitly if you hit bare rock, that is absolutely rediculous) but if you spread yourself out as much as possible (increase air resistance thus lowering velocity) and try to land on freshly tilled soil, you can live. Soft earth is one of the best things you can land on.