Vote Up A Campaign Setting: Discussion Thread III

[Worira]

I think you do have something to explain if you depart substantially from a vote. That said, I think the explanation you gave is just fine.

[afroakuma]

I think you do have something to explain if you depart substantially from a vote.

Which I did not do. Juhn was pointing out that over the course of six months I ended up contradicting myself.

I have one god and the major, or primary, religions are all monotheistic. Heck, some of the minor ones are, too. The only absolutely contradictory thing is the presence of the demideity cousins, and if the audience determines that I absolutely must color within the lines then I'll retroactively declare them superpowerful immortal worshipable nondeities, as are beings such as Asmodeus, Demogorgon et. al.

[Worira]

Well, yes, and it would be semantic nonsense. Whether you feel you followed the vote or not, you ought to just explain it right off the bat.

EDIT: And, like I said, the explanation you gave is fine with me.

[afroakuma]

Well, yes, and it would be semantic nonsense.

Which would be my point, hence my initial reaction.


Whether you feel you followed the vote or not, you ought to just explain it right off the bat.

Until today, I had been able to file what people considered acceptable explanations. Juhn's concern was that I contradicted myself.

Until ~2 months ago, we didn't even have the additional "gods," so it's not like there was any explaining to do at the outset.

Anyways; I have nothing further to explain, and I certainly have neither guilt nor fault nor error to declare and don't need exoneration.

Let us move on.

New, exciting, vibrant questions? Comments? Thoughts? Hopes?

[paddyfool]

I have no problem with shenanigens at their current levels (but then, I may be biased since I didn't vote for monotheism ;-) ).

On hopes: more stories! Lore posts of strange adventures, encounters with weird and terrifying monsters/characters (EDIT: dragons in particular would be interesting), journeys to strange cities and other places.... all of these are good :-)

[Mercenary Pen]

What I want to know is this:

If for some strange reason, VUACS 2 were to happen tomorrow, would a religion vote be any part of the process?

If yes, would you have a better idea of what wanted doing with it this time around- in order not to pull the same shenanigans you did on this occasion?

[vegetalss4]

so... are dragons in this setting big scaly lizards with breath weapons, in an European way? or more Asiatic? or some thing new?
perhaps a mix?

[Juhn]

Well, I'd hoped it was understood that there was something of an unspoken "It's too late to change this now, but..." in front of my part in this whole discussion

Of course, since you've now used to word "protohistory" I know I'm not getting any explanations as to how the two other deities got there.

[afroakuma]

What I want to know is this:

If for some strange reason, VUACS 2 were to happen tomorrow, would a religion vote be any part of the process?

Of course.


If yes, would you have a better idea of what wanted doing with it this time around- in order not to pull the same shenanigans you did on this occasion?

I think these shenanigans, more or less, were a direct result of the two leading options (and in a lesser respect, the third). At the time, I just wanted to keep us from being locked, fluffwise, into the exact shape of the world's major religion, so I switched it to a looser but more interesting format. Then when I was questioned on what we had done later, I dragged out semantics to justify everything. I'm still technically correct, and always will be.


so... are dragons in this setting big scaly lizards with breath weapons, in an European way?

Yes.


Well, I'd hoped it was understood that there was something of an unspoken "It's too late to change this now, but..." in front of my part in this whole discussion

Hence my initial reaction of "so?"

Because frankly, the only purpose it seemed to serve was in trying to drag some sort of confession or apology out of me. You can see where I would find that a bit annoying, especially at 2 AM.


Of course, since you've now used to word "protohistory" I know I'm not getting any explanations as to how the two other deities got there.

Oh, is that what you were after?

No, you're not getting that.

[paddyfool]

I don't believe this has been asked before - if it has, I apologise. You've told us that you've made poison work, although you haven't told us how. Have you also done anything about disease?

[afroakuma]

I don't believe this has been asked before - if it has, I apologise. You've told us that you've made poison work, although you haven't told us how.

We revamped the poison rules in their entirety. Our poisons are scarier, more potent and don't care how high-level you are.


Have you also done anything about disease?

We have not. As much as possible, we're trying to limit the number of system overrides we put in place.

[LordZarth]

I just want to make my stance known, for now and forever.

IF EventType = VUAx

DEFINE HomebrewGod as "A person who knows far more about D&D than me, can make better homebrew creations, both in fluff and crunch, than I could, and *whose judgement I trust is best for me in the case of homebrew*."

AND IF ThreadPoster = HomebrewGod

AND IF Result.Cost = 0

THEN IF StrictDemocraticResult = Bad AND LooseDemocraticResult = Good

PRINT LooseDemocraticResult

But seriously. If Afroakuma et alii had decided that this setting would be better with three main overdeities who were... actually... one? I would have sighed and moved on, realizing that it would be a richer and more interesting setting.

If they had decided that the setting would be best with eight gods, a Steampunk/Stone Age/Desert world, and four planes, although the setting would be better, this completely defeats the purpose of VUAx.

As it is, Tsartajius is borderline on alignment and type. But borderline. He isn't Good, or an Ooze. And he's the better for not following *exactly* the votes. And as it is, Hourglass of Zihaja has Zihaja himself, to us, the pre-eminence and symbol of the setting. The setting is far better, the voting is slightly off-letter. Afroakuma was wrong to say "So?". The setting is far better, the voting is slightly off-letter. "Good."

[afroakuma]

Honestly, folks: let it drop.

It's just not that important. Nothing will come of this debate continuing.

Move on.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

Opinion on the, uh, "matter" edited out. It ain´t relevant.


Anyhoo. I was trying to come up with a character concept for a hypothetical HoZ game, and started considering a martially inclined cleric. The old Might makes Right saying popped up in my head, and I developed it into the following ethical code of sorts:

The strong have the right to govern the weak
The strong have the duty to govern the weak
The weak have the right to oppose the strong
The weak have the duty to oppose the strong

The question would be: What culture and worship would a character that lives by that code belong to?

I´m running a tad short on time right now so if it is not too clear what it´s supposed to mean I´ll try expand on it a bit.

Oh, and alignment wise it´s supposed to come off as LN. Ish.

[afroakuma]

Anyhoo. I was trying to come up with a character concept for a hypothetical HoZ game, and started considering a martially inclined cleric. The old Might makes Right saying popped up in my head, and I developed it into the following ethical code of sorts:

The strong have the right to govern the weak
The strong have the duty to govern the weak
The weak have the right to oppose the strong
The weak have the duty to oppose the strong

The question would be: What culture and worship would a character that lives by that code belong to?

Ooh, tough one. The first two lines would read as either Johoum or Qirus.

With the last two in, I'd probably side with Qirus. Johoum's dogma is that the weak have the duty to subscribe to I'm A Cobblestone Daily.

[afroakuma]

Oh, somebody's in a lot of trouble.

I think we all know who that somebody is.

I went back and reviewed what was said.

Two posts below where the original quote came from, after this certain somebody explained why he had to get me on record in this fashion, I issued the following:


Yup. That's not to say, that, for example, animism or racial deities will not be present. But it is certified that the result will reflect on gods that do exist and are worshipped. Other religions may also have real gods, or spirits, or frauds, or aspects of the core ones, or what have you.

That right there. The result does reflect on gods that do exist: actual, full-power gods - 1.

Now, note that I left open the possibility of other religions - not the primary religions - having real gods. This was said early on during the voting.

In other words, the wrongdoing you accuse me of I had acquitted myself of months ago.

Now: this matter is to drop and drop hard. If anyone has anything further to say about it, you will send your questions, comments, criticisms or complaints to me, in a private message. I am going to ignore any further public discourse on the subject; my associates will do likewise.

[Juhn]

Anyway. Moving on!

Ooh, more character concepts! I was getting lonely.

[afroakuma]

Of course, if even going "Sorry about all this, my bad," is saying too much on the matter, I'll get rid of the above paragraph.

It is indeed; if you wouldn't mind?


Anyway. Moving on!

Indeed. New questions? Comments? Hopes, dreams, ambitions?

[Juhn]

It is indeed; if you wouldn't mind?Fair enough. I just feel odd not apologizing for everyone after making a huge scene, but if it's better to simply never mention what went on there again, I'll do so. You should find that it's gone now.




Indeed. New questions? Comments? Hopes, dreams, ambitions?

Well, you already know my ambitions *coughZihajaThesiscoughKillJohoumcough*.

Comments? New concept! This is good news! I've still got to go hunt down the Dervish writeup, though, as I remember that being mentioned as the only PrC that really fit mine. I assume Sidaru has Dervishes?

[afroakuma]

Well, you already know my ambitions *coughZihajaThesis

No.

Still don't get why you're pushing this.


coughKillJohoumcough*.

That one you can do.


I assume Sidaru has Dervishes?

Yep.

[Juhn]

Still don't get why you're pushing this.
I distinctly remember you saying "a Pharaoh could do it" earlier on, but the last time I dragged up old quotes it ended badly for all involved, so I'm kind of wary of that at the moment.

I suppose I just have a desire that at least one community learns the truth about who all these "gods" really are. Interesting that my goal re: Johoum is the exact opposite of this, when you include both steps.


Yep.

...Did we get an alignment for Sidaru? And I'm still looking for that Dervish writeup, but do you recall if there was an alignment restriction on those?

[Alteran]

I've still got to go hunt down the Dervish writeup, though, as I remember that being mentioned as the only PrC that really fit mine.

Happy Birthday. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5520616&postcount=639)

[afroakuma]

I distinctly remember you saying "a Pharaoh could do it" earlier on

Two things:

A) That was theoretical conjecture, based on a pharaoh's abilities.

B) I was trying to promote the awesome power of a pharaoh, that he can make people listen to him and do what he says. Hence me saying that a pharaoh could convince people of that sort of obvious insanity.

In reality: no. It's flat-out, completely impossible. Anything dealing with Zihaja invariably is.


I suppose I just have a desire that at least one community learns the truth about who all these "gods" really are.

...why?


...Did we get an alignment for Sidaru? And I'm still looking for that Dervish writeup, but do you recall if there was an alignment restriction on those?

Lawful good, and I don't recall. I'd have to go digging as well.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

Ooh, more character concepts! I was getting lonely.

Well, now we got... 3? I think someone mentioned something about a gnoll bard a few pages back. I hope we get some more though, makes for a neat way to get more info out of Afro :smallwink:


Ooh, tough one. The first two lines would read as either Johoum or Qirus.

With the last two in, I'd probably side with Qirus. Johoum's dogma is that the weak have the duty to subscribe to I'm A Cobblestone Daily.

Nice. I was had a vague idea that Quirus would be the best fit. In any case I have a bit more time (and thought some more about it) now, so I´ll expand on the idea:

The strong have the right to govern the weak Exactly what it looks like. If I can smack you about, I can tell you what to do.
The strong have the duty to govern the weak If I can smack you about, I should tell you what to do. The fact that I can smack you about suggests that I know what´s good and bad for you. It´s how I got strong in the first place.
The weak have the right to oppose the strong This one is a bit more ambiguous. Basically it means that the strong have to give the weak a fighting chance to become strong themselves. So, no oppressing the weak.
The weak have the duty to oppose the strong Again, pretty clear I think. The weak have an obligation to become stronger than the (current) strong. And then smack them about.

I hope that explains it all clearly. The general idea is a "fair but tough" mentality with a slight aftertaste of social darwinism.

Come to think of it, you didn´t mention what cultures might promote/allow this kind of worldview, Afro.
I´m just asking because I don´t think Gnolls would usually hold this sort of values. Lizardfolk I´m not so sure on. What about Kobolds? Humans? Am I right in thinking that it might be more common amongst desert tribes than city folk? Inquiring minds (ok, mind) want to know.


Also, on an unrelated note: There seem to be no small number of demon cults, but what about non-evil minor religions, cults and the like?

[afroakuma]

Nice. I was had a vague idea that Quirus would be the best fit. In any case I have a bit more time (and thought some more about it) now, so I´ll expand on the idea:

Definitely Qirus.


Come to think of it, you didn´t mention what cultures might promote/allow this kind of worldview, Afro.

You're absolutely right.


Also, on an unrelated note: There seem to be no small number of demon cults, but what about non-evil minor religions, cults and the like?

Non-evil?

The Darshan, Akasha, Zaia, Hagalvethr.

[Juhn]

In reality: no. It's flat-out, completely impossible. Anything dealing with Zihaja invariably is.

Well, that's depressing.


...why?It just irks me somewhat in that we do have a concrete truth about the nature of the divine in this particular world, and nobody's allowed to learn it or genuinely believe it.


Lawful good

Is he? He came off as LN to me (partially because he's a death god and that tends to be how the non-evil death gods end up, and partially because his description as "resolute" and "unmoving" sounded LN to me. Although, when I look back at it, that's just L, and has nothing to do with the moral axis), but then I know very little about Sidaru, other than what's in those brackets up there and that he's a major Lizardfolk deity. Although, the fact that the aspect dealing with the afterlife is LG says good things about what happens to you after you die in this setting, considering most of the things I've heard about that have been really depressing.

Question: Is Sih Daroga, the being actually in charge of the afterlife, also Good-aligned? And what does he think about being a "god", considering his apparently close relationship with the actual source of that divine power?


I'd have to go digging as well.Apparently not, as Alteran's been good enough to find it for us. Speaking of which:


Happy Birthday. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5520616&postcount=639)

You're a couple weeks early for that, but thanks. :smalltongue:

So, no alignment restriction? Even when you have a smite ability that depends on the target's alignment in relation to the deity? Iiiinteresting. Barbarian/Dervish may be a valid choice after all. Rage + Whirls might be scary. Can you have both of those active at once? They both come off as a sort of frenzy, so I'd assume so. Of course, I could also always have another look at ToB and try to make sense of that.

Speaking of which, are ToB classes supported in this setting? Are they even needed, with the rebalancing efforts being made?

There, I think those are all the things that have been swimming around my mind lately with regard to this project.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

You're absolutely right.


:smallfrown:



The Darshan, Akasha, Zaia, Hagalvethr.

Oh right. I´d forgotten about the Akasha. And I must have missed that Zaia has a cult too. The last name sounds... vaguely non-middle-eastern. Is that just me? And yes, the words "vaguely non-middle-eastern" do sound rather silly

Oh, something that struck my attention earlier. You said that, besides apperance, the mortal race a Sabi descends from doesn´t matter crunch-wise. How does this work for Kobolds? I mean, most PC races a 5-6 feet tall, whereas the average Kobold is something like... 3 feet tall, right? Are Sabi-kobolds all unusually tall/beefy?

[Juhn]

The last name sounds... vaguely non-middle-eastern. Is that just me?

Nope. Sounds Norse to me.

[afroakuma]

Well, that's depressing.

Why on earth is that depressing? The characters in the world certainly don't know. They'll also never know about plutonium, or strange quarks, or Star Wars. I doubt they're any less happy despite these "shortcomings."


It just irks me somewhat in that we do have a concrete truth about the nature of the divine in this particular world, and nobody's allowed to learn it or genuinely believe it.

See above; see also everything with a contained mystery ever.

Geniuinely believing it would be the most depressing thing, because here's the secret: it doesn't matter. If you believe in Zihaja, you're still gonna die. He's still not going to look you up and ask you to pizza. You'll never meet him, speak to him or see any other reciprocation of your belief. That will only continue in your afterlife.

So, congratulations - you've managed to decode an ancient secret that a long time ago wasn't even a secret, but one which renders absolutely hollow everything ever to you. I'm glad the alternative was the more depressing route.


Is he? He came off as LN to me (partially because he's a death god and that tends to be how the non-evil death gods end up, and partially because his description as "resolute" and "unmoving" sounded LN to me. Although, when I look back at it, that's just L, and has nothing to do with the moral axis), but then I know very little about Sidaru, other than what's in those brackets up there and that he's a major Lizardfolk deity. Although, the fact that the aspect dealing with the afterlife is LG says good things about what happens to you after you die in this setting, considering most of the things I've heard about that have been really depressing.

:smallsigh: I really don't want to have to explain the afterlife. Don't make me.


Question: Is Sih Daroga, the being actually in charge of the afterlife, also Good-aligned?

Haven't assigned it, yet, but probably LN or LG.


And what does he think about being a "god", considering his apparently close relationship with the actual source of that divine power?

He knows why it happened, and considering he was used to that kind of treatment even beforehand, he's fine with it. From his perspective, it makes his job relatively easier.


So, no alignment restriction? Even when you have a smite ability that depends on the target's alignment in relation to the deity? Iiiinteresting. Barbarian/Dervish may be a valid choice after all. Rage + Whirls might be scary. Can you have both of those active at once? They both come off as a sort of frenzy, so I'd assume so. Of course, I could also always have another look at ToB and try to make sense of that.

Remember, nothing there was final. That class has gone through some overhauls since then.


Speaking of which, are ToB classes supported in this setting?

No.


Are they even needed, with the rebalancing efforts being made?

They're always needed, really.


There, I think those are all the things that have been swimming around my mind lately with regard to this project.

Give it a few minutes; more will spring to mind.


Oh right. I´d forgotten about the Akasha. And I must have missed that Zaia has a cult too. The last name sounds... vaguely non-middle-eastern. Is that just me? And yes, the words "vaguely non-middle-eastern" do sound rather silly

Juhn is correct; that would be Norse. I wonder if I've been hiding something from you all...


Oh, something that struck my attention earlier. You said that, besides apperance, the mortal race a Sabi descends from doesn´t matter crunch-wise. How does this work for Kobolds? I mean, most PC races a 5-6 feet tall, whereas the average Kobold is something like... 3 feet tall, right? Are Sabi-kobolds all unusually tall/beefy?

:smallsigh: And this is what's known as a Pregnant Ranma Problem.

If you intend to play a Sabi of non-human descent, talk to your DM about whether it needs adjustments. I have no canon statement to make on the subject. Same goes for half-djinni and half-ghuls.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

Nope. Sounds Norse to me.

Yeah. Norse sounds about right. Hagalvethr was a racial deity, wasn´t he/she/it? I am now very curious.

[Juhn]

Geniuinely believing it would be the most depressing thing, because here's the secret: it doesn't matter. If you believe in Zihaja, you're still gonna die. He's still not going to look you up and ask you to pizza. You'll never meet him, speak to him or see any other reciprocation of your belief. That will only continue in your afterlife.

So, congratulations - you've managed to decode an ancient secret that a long time ago wasn't even a secret, but one which renders absolutely hollow everything ever to you. I'm glad the alternative was the more depressing route.You either know the truth, even though you can't change it, or you wholeheartedly believe in an outright fabrication. The second is far more depressing to me.


:smallsigh: I really don't want to have to explain the afterlife. Don't make me.I'm not making you do anything. You just dropped some hints which were depressing, and the aspect most relevant to my character is directly related to the afterlife. Is it any wonder that I'm interested?

Remember, nothing there was final. That class has gone through some overhauls since then.Alright, I'll be direct then: Does anything about the Dervish prohibit members of any race or class from taking the PrC?


No.

They're always needed, really.


:confused:


:smallsigh: And this is what's known as a Pregnant Ranma Problem.It's confusing, unsettling, and don't think about it because it'll never come up? I only see it as being the first of those three.

[afroakuma]

You either know the truth, even though you can't change it, or you wholeheartedly believe in an outright fabrication. The second is far more depressing to me.

'Grats, then. You're to be depressed.

The fact that your fabrication is generally accurate wouldn't be any sort of balm to you?


I'm not making you do anything. You just dropped some hints which were depressing, and the aspect most relevant to my character is directly related to the afterlife. Is it any wonder that I'm interested?

Everyone's interested in that, but if I explain it there will simply be far, far, far too many questions at once.


Alright, I'll be direct then: Does anything about the Dervish prohibit members of any race or class from taking the PrC?

I can make no definitive statements on that subject at this time.

[QUOTE]It's confusing, unsettling, and don't think about it because it'll never come up? I only see it as being the first of those three.


a pregnant Ranma problem refers to any discussion of the mechanics or logistics of a token gimmick or plot point that would normally be governed by suspension of disbelief. Despite at times being a simple query from new fans

Fine, I'm wrong, and TVTropes is lagging too badly for me to find the correct term.

I'ma file it under Shrug of God (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShrugOfGod).

[Juhn]

Fine, I'm wrong, and TVTropes is lagging too badly for me to find the correct term.

Oh, I wasn't referring to the trope, I was referring to what I figure is the actual reason why the creator felt there was no need to answer that particular question.

Now, in this case, chances are people are gonna want to play non-human-based sabi/half-genies/half-ghuls/etc, so it's slightly less pointless.


I can make no definitive statements on that subject at this time.You're being really unhelpful for character-building, you know that?

[afroakuma]

Oh, I wasn't referring to the trope, I was referring to what I figure is the actual reason why the creator felt there was no need to answer that particular question.

Now, in this case, chances are people are gonna want to play non-human-based sabi/half-genies/half-ghuls/etc, so it's slightly less pointless.

I'd say it remains pointless, since apart from kobolds none of them have any logical crunch differences that I can't handwave away.

And oddly, this ties into the same feelings I had with the religion vote question, in that if I make a ruling either way, I'm going to get immediately deluged with questions. "How are these tall, obviously distinctive kobolds treated by the rest of kobold society" etc.


You're being really unhelpful for character-building, you know that?

I can't help it if the prerequisites haven't been set in stone yet!

[Juhn]

I'd say it remains pointless, since apart from kobolds none of them have any logical crunch differences that I can't handwave away.

And oddly, this ties into the same feelings I had with the religion vote question, in that if I make a ruling either way, I'm going to get immediately deluged with questions. "How are these tall, obviously distinctive kobolds treated by the rest of kobold society" etc.Well, if somebody wants to play one, that type of thing matters. We don't do this just to annoy you, you know.


I can't help it if the prerequisites haven't been set in stone yet!

Ah, so your statement was literal then. Fair enough.

[afroakuma]

Well, if somebody wants to play one, that type of thing matters. We don't do this just to annoy you, you know.

Not just to annoy me, eh?

I am aware, which is why I referred it to individual DMs, because I am not doing up separate racial stats for each possible combination of heritage + base race.


Ah, so your statement was literal then. Fair enough.

Of course. If I were being a jerk I would have put a :smalltongue: (or, knowing me, a :smallbiggrin:) to that effect.

[Juhn]

Not just to annoy me, eh?Actually, I have effectively no interest in annoying you; that's just how the saying is worded.


I am aware, which is why I referred it to individual DMs, because I am not doing up separate racial stats for each possible combination of heritage + base race.Bah. That's only... 48 combinations, if my math is correct. I mean, it's not like you still have 1/5th of a totally awesome campaign setting to finish putting together, right?


Of course. If I were being a jerk I would have put a :smalltongue: (or, knowing me, a :smallbiggrin:) to that effect.

Eh, sometimes I can't tell when it's "I'm not gonna tell you because I don't see a good reason to tell you yet", when it's "I'm not gonna tell you because there's nothing to tell yet", or when it's "I'm not gonna tell you because your frustration amuses me."

[afroakuma]

Bah. That's only... 48 combinations, if my math is correct. I mean, it's not like you still have 1/5th of a totally awesome campaign setting to finish putting together, right?

I have no idea where the progress meter actually is at this point. :smallsigh:




Eh, sometimes I can't tell when it's "I'm not gonna tell you because I don't see a good reason to tell you yet", when it's "I'm not gonna tell you because there's nothing to tell yet",

Those two are pretty indistinct, yeah.


or when it's "I'm not gonna tell you because your frustration amuses me."

Well, that one's always easy to spot, since I can't resist tossing a sadistic grin, smirk or tongue waggle at you.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

Juhn is correct; that would be Norse. I wonder if I've been hiding something from you all...

Hrmm... mmm... uh... viking walruses?




:smallsigh: And this is what's known as a Pregnant Ranma Problem.

If you intend to play a Sabi of non-human descent, talk to your DM about whether it needs adjustments. I have no canon statement to make on the subject. Same goes for half-djinni and half-ghuls.

Fair enough. Shouldn´t really be an issue. I mean, how hard can adapting each race to each of the 4 sabi varieties be? :smallbiggrin:

[afroakuma]

Hrmm... mmm... uh... viking walruses?

No. :smalltongue:

[Juhn]

I'm kind of baffled at the presence of this Norseness considering all the "if it wasn't in the areas discussed in the Arabian Nights it's not in our setting", so this should be interesting to hear.

[Mercenary Pen]

Hrmm... mmm... uh... viking walruses?

Maybe something else, like perhaps viking gnolls/aazlai?

[Shadow_Elf]

Couldn't be bothered to bring up the original query on non-human sabi, half-djinn and half-ghuls, but 4e mechanics will support, mechanically, non-human Half-Djinn and Half-Ghuls (but not Sabi).

On the matter of kobolds... take a ghul or genie (both > medium) and a kobold (small). Mix em together, and I figure they average out (Large + small all over two = Medium). There, that's my explanation, spelled out in math.

[Reverent-One]

Here's a question for Shadow, since it pertains to some general mechanics on the 4e side. Perhaps I missed this back when you first mentioned the scabbards, but what magic item slot do they take up? Waist, or are you adding a new slot specifically for the scabbards?

[Juhn]

(but not Sabi)

Any particular reason for this?

[Shadow_Elf]

Here's a question for Shadow, since it pertains to some general mechanics on the 4e side. Perhaps I missed this back when you first mentioned the scabbards, but what magic item slot do they take up? Waist, or are you adding a new slot specifically for the scabbards?

No, they're like the scabbards that already exist in the Adventurer's Vault (which really should have been a core book). They are wondrous items - you can theoretically have as many as you want, but you can only keep your sword in one, so there's no point in having more scabbards than good swords. That's how they're balanced, while still slotless.


Any particular reason for this?

Because I'm using the Genasi stats from the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide for the setting. I was faced with two options - either I use the existing stats for the race ours is based on, a race which WotC did a fine job of, or I throw that all away and make something different, which I already had to do for the half-genies, and yet make it different and distinguishable from the Wizards Genasi and the HoZ half-genies. Under option two, the race would have turned out either redundant, plagiarized or mechanically obscure. So I decided to stick with the officially released stats. Sorry for all 4e fans of the setting who do not posses an FRPG and wish to play a Sabi - they're not mechanically different from the Genasi from whence they came.

[Reverent-One]

No, they're like the scabbards that already exist in the Adventurer's Vault (which really should have been a core book). They are wondrous items - you can theoretically have as many as you want, but you can only keep your sword in one, so there's no point in having more scabbards than good swords. That's how they're balanced, while still slotless.

Ha, that's one of the few "main" books (in terms of general useful-ness) that I don't have.

[Juhn]

re: 4e Genasi/Sabi. Alright, that makes perfect sense. I just know little to nothing about 4e and was wondering.

Is there going to be any fluff reason to go with this, though? Are non-human half-Genies simply infertile, or something? Is their genie blood not strong enough to have any mechanical effect on their offspring, who just end up like normal members of the base race? Something else entirely?

[Alteran]

Ha, that's one of the few "main" books (in terms of general useful-ness) that I don't have.

I suggest you buy it. I have found it incredibly useful.

Well, either get that or DDI. The compendium will have whatever you need from the AV.

[Shadow_Elf]

re: 4e Genasi/Sabi. Alright, that makes perfect sense. I just know little to nothing about 4e and was wondering.

Is there going to be any fluff reason to go with this, though? Are non-human half-Genies simply infertile, or something? Is their genie blood not strong enough to have any mechanical effect on their offspring, who just end up like normal members of the base race? Something else entirely?

No, you can be a Lizardfolk Sabi. But you'll have the same stats as a Human Sabi or a Kobold Sabi or an Aazlai Sabi. I might make a feat for Sabi that lets them qualify as a member of their base race, not sure.

[Juhn]

Ah, okay. I seem to have missed the three or four times you prefaced the "no non-human Sabi" with "mechanically"

[LordZarth]

I have a question. Through most of this setting, I got the impression that our resident innapproachable overdeity was Neutral, if not beyond the strictures of the moral axis.

But recently, we have talk of angels being the messengers of Zihaja. I can haz wut?

[Zeta Kai]

I have a question. Through most of this setting, I got the impression that our resident innapproachable overdeity was Neutral, if not beyond the strictures of the moral axis.

But recently, we have talk of angels being the messengers of Zihaja. I can haz wut?

I'd say that Zihaja is beyong your petty concerns of alignment. But, for the sake of argument, if he weren't, he'd be either N or LN. The preservation of the Kamala & its balance are of paramount concern.

[Juhn]

Eh, I don't know if "I believe that preventing this apparently incredibly fragile world from falling apart is the most important thing" is enough to make you Lawful. I mean, practically anyone would choose to preserve the world if given the choice.

But apparently alignment discussions end badly 'round these parts, so we should probably just move on.

[LordZarth]

Eh, I don't know if "I believe that preventing this apparently incredibly fragile world from falling apart is the most important thing" is enough to make you Lawful. I mean, practically anyone would choose to preserve the world if given the choice.

But apparently alignment discussions end badly 'round these parts, so we should probably just move on.

I've always treated Law (on a planar scale, as in Mechanus and overdeities) as "Dis here? Dis is mah plan. For all uv it. De whole ting."

[LordZarth]

I'd say that Zihaja is beyong your petty concerns of alignment. But, for the sake of argument, if he weren't, he'd be either N or LN. The preservation of the Kamala & its balance are of paramount concern.

But why are his servants/messengers angels, who presumably battle demons?

[Jallorn]

Maybe it's a callback to the stuff that inspired the setting? God/Allah/Yahweh/etc is served by a host of angels, after all.

And he is, throughout the most prevelant religions anyway, lawful good... supposedly.

[LordZarth]

What do you mean, Juhn? What quotes?

*this is out of order, for the confused*

[Juhn]

Talking about real-world religion isn't done on these forums, and I'm wary of mentioning it at all. I'd advise getting off the topic as quickly as possible before we inadvertently get this thread locked or something. In retrospect, I probably shouldn't have brought it up at all. In fact, I think I should edit/delete my posts on the subject, and the removal of the entire discussion might be prudent.

EDIT: Well, my posts on the subject are gone. Unfortunately, they're also in quotes that I can't touch. :smallsigh:

[afroakuma]

But why are his servants/messengers angels, who presumably battle demons?

Only when necessary. He uses them because they're powerful, they're often lawful (and therefore will follow his directives to the letter) and they're good, so thy have the best interests of both the overdeity and his creation at heart.

[Juhn]

Non-dangerous reasons! Hooray!

[Thane of Fife]

I'm kind of baffled at the presence of this Norseness considering all the "if it wasn't in the areas discussed in the Arabian Nights it's not in our setting", so this should be interesting to hear.

The vikings actually traveled pretty far - it would not surprise me in the least if they made it all the way to Egypt and the nearby vicinity.

In fact.... (http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2nbsvva&s=5)

[afroakuma]

The vikings actually traveled pretty far - it would not surprise me in the least if they made it all the way to Egypt and the nearby vicinity.

:smalltongue: I did it cause Vikings are cool.

[Juhn]

I assume this one's the racial deity?

So, which group's the vikings?

[afroakuma]

I assume this one's the racial deity?

So, which group's the vikings?

Group? :smallconfused:

[Juhn]

Assuming the viking deity is a racial deity, one of the racial groups would be analogous, yes?

[afroakuma]

Assuming the viking deity is a racial deity, one of the racial groups would be analogous, yes?

Well, it's not human, kobold, gnoll, lizardfolk, sabi, half-djinn or half-ghul, if that's what you're asking.

[Juhn]

I figured as much. Desert centaurs? Aazlai? Some as-yet-unheard-of other NPC race?

[afroakuma]

I figured as much. Desert centaurs? Aazlai?

No and no.


Some as-yet-unheard-of other NPC race?

Oh, probably that. You did vote it in, though.

[LordZarth]

We do have polar regions, guys.

[afroakuma]

We do have polar regions, guys.

That we do.

[Juhn]

Oh, probably that. You did vote it in, though.

You do realize that such statements will result in demands for information about this mysterious new race. Of course, that's probably just all part of your master plan.

We can haz info?

[afroakuma]

You do realize that such statements will result in demands for information about this mysterious new race. Of course, that's probably just all part of your master plan.

We can haz info?

Well, as I said, you did vote it in.

[Juhn]

I do not recall this, but as yet I have no objections.

[Alteran]

You did vote it in, though.


Well, it's not human, kobold, gnoll, lizardfolk, sabi, half-djinn or half-ghul, if that's what you're asking.


With reference to races voted in:


PC Races: Half-Djinn, Lizardfolk, Genasi Sabi, Half-Ghul, & Gnoll

One of your two statements must be incorrect, unless you retconned the vote on one race or Zeta's list was incorrect.

[afroakuma]

What's to recall? The voting stats are all on the very first post of the very first thread.

[Alteran]

Well, you said it was a race we voted in, not a race we voted for. The list I gave was from the page you just mentioned, and it was a list of races that we voted in. If you meant other races that we voted for, then it's probably Aasimar or Tieflings. Considering only races that were not on your no-list, are known to be in the setting, and received votes, I believe these are the only two possibilities.

[afroakuma]

Well, you said it was a race we voted in, not a race we voted for. The list I gave was from the page you just mentioned, and it was a list of races that we voted in.

No... that would be a list of PC races you voted in. Since clearly the race in question is "in," and since I indicated that this fact was derived from the vote results, you voted this race in. Just not as a PC race.

[Alteran]

My guess stands. Unless this is a race you have never mentioned, it must be Aasimar or Tieflings.

[afroakuma]

My guess stands. Unless this is a race you have never mentioned, it must be Aasimar or Tieflings.

...no, and no. And why must it be either?

[Juhn]

Well, dwarves were the next highest-voted race, and they were derived from Norse mythology to my knowledge.

Mind you, I kind of liked the completely lack of normal PHB races (barring humans)

[afroakuma]

Well, dwarves were the next highest-voted race, and they were derived from Norse mythology to my knowledge.

Mind you, I kind of liked the completely lack of normal PHB races (barring humans)

Well, obviously we've altered them to fit the setting better.

And notably, they are not a PC race. Indeed, you could play through a whole campaign without ever encountering one.

[Juhn]

Hehe. That's the second race I've guessed, now. Do I get anything for this one? :smalltongue:

On an only semiserious note: I take it I'm still not getting my Desert Elves?

[afroakuma]

Hehe. That's the second race I've guessed, now. Do I get anything for this one? :smalltongue:

Seeing as how you still haven't redeemed your earlier prize, no.


On an only semiserious note: I take it I'm still not getting my Desert Elves?

Never.

There aren't even desert dwarves.

[Alteran]

Because, these are races that recieved votes:

Aasimar, Camelfolk, Dwarf, Elf, Genasi Sabi, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblinoid, Half-Djinn, Half-Elf, Half-Ghul, Half-Orc, Halfling/Kender, Lizardfolk, Orc, and Tiefling.

You said no to Sabi, Gnoll, Half-Djinn, Half-Ghul, Lizardfolk, Kobold, and now Aasimar and Tiefling.

This leaves Camelfolk, Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Goblinoid, Half-Elf, Half-Orc, Halfling/Kender, and Orc. I'm quite sure that most of these have never been mentioned, and none has been confirmed to exist. That's why I said it must be the Aasimar or Tieflings. Obviously, I was wrong. I'm going to say Camelfolk and Goblinoids are the most likely to be in the setting, with Elves and their ilk the least likely.

New guess...Camelfolk, let's say. Those may have been mentioned before.

Edit: Aww. My research delayed me. Turns out I was wrong, too.

[Juhn]

What, I don't get to stockpile? :smallfrown:

[afroakuma]

I'm quite sure that most of these have never been mentioned, and none has been confirmed to exist.

Well of course I haven't mentioned this. I've been hiding it until now, haven't I? :smallcool:

[Juhn]

Did Alteran miss my post, or was I incorrect and am now making an idiot of myself?

EDIT: Oh wait, no, it seems he edited.

[Alteran]

Did Alteran miss my post, or was I incorrect and am now making an idiot of myself?

EDIT: Oh wait, no, it seems he edited.

Yeah, I took to long to finish my post. By the time I submitted it you had already gotten the right answer.

[Juhn]

you still haven't redeemed your earlier prize

There are two reasons for this:

One, you've been really, really busy since before I got said earlier prize, and I'd honestly feel bad adding to your impressive workload before something frees up.

Two, any time I get something that's redeemable, but I only have one of, I become effectively paralyzed by indecision. Every time I go to use it, I end up going "but what if something better comes along later, and I've already wasted it?" Heck, this exact thing happened to me when I found out I was eligible for a wish from the Starlight Wish Foundation: I ended up sitting on it until I was too old to use it. Which, as I just now checked, was only just under a year ago. Crap.

Anyway. I very nearly redeemed said prize to finally get my accursed Nightwalker a few times, but every time I got close, those two things above reared their ugly heads and shot me down.

[paddyfool]

Hmm. Somehow, I'd previously suspected the Houris (?sp) of Najmah might have pretty elf-like characteristics, but had been hesitant to put this forward prior to the (admittedly peripheral) presence of dwarves. Was I right?

[afroakuma]

Hmm. Somehow, I'd previously suspected the Houris (?sp) of Najmah might have pretty elf-like characteristics, but had been hesitant to put this forward prior to the (admittedly peripheral) presence of dwarves. Was I right?

Ehh... loosely, I suppose.

[Juhn]

Well, judging from
you could play through a whole campaign without ever encountering one.I assume these dwarves rarely associate with other races?

[Zeta Kai]

Well, judging fromI assume these dwarves rarely associate with other races?

More like an Arabian Nights-based campaign will rarely stray far enough south to reach the Dvernin. Their world & the realm of the Admajai are separated by culture, language, & climate.

[Juhn]

True enough. Although your use of the term "Admajai" to ostensibly describe the Arabian Nights-inspired part of this campaign world leaves me curious at to just how far-reaching the influence of this empire really was.

Although, is the area we've seen mapped still only one of a number of continents?

[Zeta Kai]

True enough. Although your use of the term "Admajai" to ostensibly describe the Arabian Nights-inspired part of this campaign world leaves me curious at to just how far-reaching the influence of this empire really was.

Although, is the area we've seen mapped still only one of a number of continents?

The Empire of Admaja was fairly extensive & long-lasting, hence its strong influence even 400 years after its fall.

And the main continent is but one of four. And they are all dominated by deserts, in one way or another.

[vegetalss4]

The Empire of Admaja was fairly extensive & long-lasting, hence its strong influence even 400 years after its fall.

And the main continent is but one of four. And they are all dominated by deserts, in one way or another.

are all of the Sahara type deserts? or are some/one of them a different type?

[SlyGuyMcFly]

Well, polar regions are deserts too, and I can imagine there being arizona style deserts, rocky deserts... And... I´m out of deserts.


Also, entirely random and unfounded question to the build team: Are any of you familiar with the novel Vathek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vathek), and has it had any influence on the setting?

[Juhn]

Considering the large role that genies play in this setting, I'm disappointed that I keep forgetting about the Janni. What's the deal with those guys, as far as this setting is concerned?

[afroakuma]

They still exist.

I could have sworn I'd already fielded questions about them...?

[Juhn]

The last time I brought them up, I seem to remember the conversation going like this:

Juhn: "Wait a minute, I completely forgot about the Janni. What's new with them in this setting?"

afro: "Oh crap"

Juhn: "What?"

afro: "...So did we."

Juhn: "I smell an emergency meeting at HQ."

And that was the last I remember hearing on the subject.

[afroakuma]

Yeah, that sounds like me.

Didn't I answer things since? Cause I remember that emergency meeting.

[Juhn]

I don't remember bringing it up again until now, actually.

[Hyozo]

Actually, I seem to remember seeing Janni questions asked and answered after that. I'll see if I can find them.

[Juhn]

Could be. I seem to be not remembering a lot of things lately that get dug up.

[afroakuma]

Yeah. It was before the rakshasas, I remember that. And it wasn't you asking.

[Hyozo]

No, It was Juhn. That discussion started here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102957&highlight=Vote+Campaign+Setting&page=16). However, I may have been mistaken about further questions being asked after Zeta revealed he'd been working on them behind afroakuma's back all along. I'll keep looking though.

Found some. Right after the rakshasa, just like Afroakuma said.


Also, how are Janni viewed/treated by the other four races?
For the most part, janni stayed in Najmah, where they live with houris or as second-class citizens among the remaining genie cities. On Siraaj, it's a different story.

You see, janni didn't get bound like the other four races, which has engendered a suspicion in the rest. The Heed is the result of this suspicion, a contract between leaders of the four true races to give cautious respect to the janni while watching ever for a clue as to how they got out of it.

Dao still have a cultural trend to treat janni as inferiors, and this is barely restrained by the Heed, though they do defer to it when they feel they are skirting too close to the edge. Younger dao, and some leaders, take more readily to the Heed.

Djinni follow the Heed the most thinly, and are generally rather tolerant of janni.

Efreeti follow the terms to the letter, often making janni rather uncomfortable with the formality and open disquiet.

Marids are outwardly welcoming of the janni, and treat them as favored guests. However, they are the most wary and probing signatories to the Heed, since between the binding and the loss of one of their greatest factions, they have been the most injured since coming to Siraaj.

Intrigued?

[Juhn]

Intrigued?

Yes, actually.

Also, as I'm sifting through older threads now, I believe it is time to bring up previously-overlooked things such as:


engage in a sacred duelAnything here upon which you could elaborate? Which parties would typically be involved? What would be the circumstances surrounding such a duel?


mythic beasts (sphinx, roc, naga)
Sih Daroga is a sphinx, and so far as I can tell something close to a divine being. I take it he is quite exceptional for a sphinx, especially considering they were filed under "beasts"?


divine birds (homa, samadar)
What the heck are these, and are they literally divine?

[vegetalss4]

i am walking through the streets of the city of god, there i meet two human citizens, one male and one female, what are their names most likely to be?

[Juhn]

Also:
the chance to slip between worlds around every cornerEvidently somebody forgot to tell Dermananske this.

[Alteran]

Also: Evidently somebody forgot to tell Dermananske this.

It's possible that wasn't true until he opened a portal to Najmah and screwed everything up.

[afroakuma]

It's possible that wasn't true until he opened a portal to Najmah and screwed everything up.

"Portal?"

That was no mere portal. He literally shredded the veil between worlds. It was an enormously stupid move.

And no; that little clip referred to minuscule coexistent spots and rifts, not a random chance to trip an entire civilization over the border.

[Juhn]

i am walking through the streets of the city of god, there i meet two human citizens, one male and one female, what are their names most likely to be?

Well, I was gonna say Frank, but these aren't Lizardfolk you're asking about. :smalltongue:
Now to see if anyone remembers what I'm talking about.

And yeah, I was figuring it wasn't gonna be big enough for entire civilizations, but it said "around every corner" and, and, and I apologize for trying to be funny.

[Hyozo]

divine birds (homa, samadar)
What the heck are these, and are they literally divine?


What's the coolest new monster, in each of your oppinions?
I'm partial to the samandar, but then I always like high CR superpowered beasties.

This samandar does seem like an interesting monster. Which plane does it live in? Is it sentient? Does its diet include adventurers?

[Juhn]

Whoa, it got a second mention? My memory seems to be going...

[afroakuma]

Well, I was gonna say Frank, but these aren't Lizardfolk you're asking about. :smalltongue:
Now to see if anyone remembers what I'm talking about.

Oh, rest assured, I do. :smalltongue:

[Lord_Gareth]

Wait, you included dwarves, but you've got some kind of axe to grind against elves? What'd you do, read Eragon immediately before the setting was designed?

Eh, I guess I don't get to talk. I've got a rather large axe to grind against the modern conception of dwarves. I mean, seriously, the svartalfar were FRAGGIN' GODS - ones who, wait for it - hated gold (it reminded them of the sun) and were actually the dark cousins of alfs, who would later be bastardized into Tolkein's abominations. I'm unsure of when someone thought it was a good idea to make them scottish drunkards with an axe fetish, but I'm getting damned sick of it.

Also - how did the drow, one of the most fearsome and hideous of the formorii (Irish...I guess the term would be "demons", but that's stretching it) get translated to D&D the way they did? The hell??

Anyway, back to relevant things:

What's up with Zaia? What does she do? What's her "church" like? Does she like her job, whatever it is? What's her relation to the Big Z?

[afroakuma]

Wait, you included dwarves, but you've got some kind of axe to grind against elves? What'd you do, read Eragon immediately before the setting was designed?

I wouldn't read Eragon if you paid me to write an insulting article about it afterwards.


Anyway, back to relevant things:

What's up with Zaia?

Not much; what's up with you, Lord_Gareth?


What does she do?

She defines the borders of Siraaj and Najmah, guards the veil, watches the Balance, keeps the flow of mortal time regular, and runs the global news ticker for Zihaja News Network. Basically, she's the world-goddess.


What's her "church" like?

Usually small in active faithful, but widespread and generally tolerated. Even those who worship other gods ardently stop by to make a little prayer or show a bit of respect to Zaia.


Does she like her job, whatever it is?

Usually, although sometimes it gets stressful.


What's her relation to the Big Z?

They're not directly related; she is a daughter of an old friend from his former life. In terms of cosmological interactions, she is one of his two direct agents.

So yeah. Also probably the second-biggest naga in the multiverse.

[Lord_Gareth]

Interesting - I'm starting to like her. What virtues does her church extol? What vices do they warn against? Do they know what she's really up to, or do they think she's a goddess of something else?

If she's the world goddess, how'd the (now imprisoned) Johum become more powerful? Does she have any major enemies? Does her church think she does?

[afroakuma]

Interesting - I'm starting to like her.

Good.


What virtues does her church extol?

Travel, experience, socialize, partake. Live a full life. Believe in myth and wonder. Understand your world and take an active hand in events.


What vices do they warn against?

Toil, punishment, power at the expense of others, destruction without creation and vice versa, imbalance, trespass against sacred borders, trespass against others, murder, the usual.


Do they know what she's really up to, or do they think she's a goddess of something else?

Sort of yes, and sort of no.


If she's the world goddess, how'd the (now imprisoned) Johum become more powerful?

She's literally physically wrapped around two planes, and she's got a hell of a lot to occupy her mind. She doesn't actually command a great deal of divine power.


Does she have any major enemies?

Demons of all stripes.


Does her church think she does?

Yep: Her church's dogma occasionally clashes with Limalia's, but in general Zaia's shrines are tolerated in Limalia's lands. As with most faiths, her church isn't a big fan of Maqur.

[Lord_Gareth]

What classes would typically be drawn to worship Zaia (sounds like she'd be a fairly popular pick for Bards)? Does her church sponsor paladins? Does she sponsor paladins?

If she's wrapped around the physical planes, can she be seen with the naked eye? How active is her interference in both planes? Does she commune with her priests? Does she like/dislike/not care about being worshipped?

[Juhn]

Travel, experience, socialize, partake. Live a full life. Believe in myth and wonder. Understand your world and take an active hand in events.

I quite like her style. She sounds like the ultimate deity for adventurers.

[afroakuma]

What classes would typically be drawn to worship Zaia (sounds like she'd be a fairly popular pick for Bards)?

Clerics too, oddly enough. Hehehehehehehehehehehehe I'm so funny.

Some barbarians and rangers do, since primitive cultures find the world-serpent archetype popular. Many druids pay her respect as well.


Does her church sponsor paladins?

Formally? Her Siraaj church rarely does; her church on Najmah does so more commonly.


Does she sponsor paladins?

She does, yes. If you were going to be a nondenominational paladin, she'd probably be your secret backer.


If she's wrapped around the physical planes, can she be seen with the naked eye?

Yep.


How active is her interference in both planes?

In? Not very. Between? Very very.


Does she commune with her priests?

No, but she'll commune with her paladins.


Does she like/dislike/not care about being worshipped?

Not care, largely.

[Juhn]

She communes with her paladins, but not with her clerics? Or are you distinguishing between "cleric" and "priest" here?

[afroakuma]

She communes with her paladins, but not with her clerics? Or are you distinguishing between "cleric" and "priest" here?

Nope. One of our cardinal rules in this setting is that clerics don't get to commune.

[Lord_Gareth]

Formally? Her Siraaj church rarely does; her church on Najmah does so more commonly.

Odd - why?


She does, yes. If you were going to be a nondenominational paladin, she'd probably be your secret backer.

Again, interesting behavior. Why does she take this kind of interest? What's her alignment (and, a little more importantly, what does her church think hre alignment is)?


No, but she'll commune with her paladins.

Oooh, interesting tidbit after interesting tidbit. Why the short shrift to clerics? Does she simply trust the paladins more?

[Juhn]

Nope. One of our cardinal rules in this setting is that clerics don't get to commune.

This confuses me greatly. The people that devote their lives to serving and understanding their deities are the ones who specifically never get to commune with them?

[afroakuma]

Odd - why?

Because her following on Siraaj is more dilute, so formal sponsorship of a lot of things goes out the window. Whereas on Najmah, you can look up in the sky and probably easily spot the dark band that marks out her body.


Again, interesting behavior. Why does she take this kind of interest?

Because people devoted to law and good are more likely people who will uphold the Balance. And because such people can become her agents in effecting change on the world.


Oooh, interesting tidbit after interesting tidbit. Why the short shrift to clerics?

See above.


Does she simply trust the paladins more?

Paladins, as I said, are more likely to be used as active agents on her behalf, so she'd naturally want to instruct them more.


This confuses me greatly.

I thought it might. :smalltongue:


The people that devote their lives to serving and understanding their deities are the ones who specifically never get to commune with them?

Yup. Or more specifically, the people who would normally have access to the commune spell don't get it at all. Contact other plane met a similar fate.

[Lord_Gareth]

Alright...

So, how would you describe a "typical" relationship between a paladin and Zaia? Authoritarian? Subtle? Kindly-mother-who-just-so-happens-to-want-you-to-smite-that-guy-yes-that-one-over-there-with-the-stupid-mustache-he's-a-friggin'-necromancer-trying-to-planeshift-would-you-please-just-kill-him-already?

[Zeta Kai]

Well, our settings cosmology has profound effects on many spells, particularly spells that involve planes that don't exist in the Kamala. I hope that you guys didn't wanna do any astral projection. :smallredface:

[Lord_Gareth]

Couple of hypothetical questions here:

If something (to have the kind of mind/power to do it disqualifies such a being from the more 'human' term someone) did navigate its way into Kamala, would Zihaja know? What would he do about it?

Likewise, if someone or something "tunneled" out, as you previously stated, do they leave a "hole" that can be followed back out/in, or are such things sealed up and dealt with?

[afroakuma]

Alright...

So, how would you describe a "typical" relationship between a paladin and Zaia?

She's like a university professor. That sorta generically-friendly female one, late 40s or 50s but seems kind of ageless, likes you as a student but has a really big class, is willing to partake in debate but will end discussion when she feels it's enough.


Couple of hypothetical questions here:

If something (to have the kind of mind/power to do it disqualifies such a being from the more 'human' term someone) did navigate its way into Kamala, would Zihaja know?

Ever been near a construction site? Or have dental work done? Picture the most horribly screeching, grating, painful drilling sound you've ever heard in your life. Multiply it by about three; now add in the horrific squeal of tires and record scratches as this drill navigates a four-dimensional multiplanar fold. Now make that loud enough to shatter glass and put supersonic fighter jets and rock concerts to shame.

Oh yeah. He'd know.


What would he do about it?

Boot it out and repair the hole, if it was something to be worried about.


Likewise, if someone or something "tunneled" out, as you previously stated, do they leave a "hole" that can be followed back out/in, or are such things sealed up and dealt with?

Such tunnels are inherently unstable (trying to make one can burn off your spellcasting power - and sanity - and holding it open for even a minute is a supreme act of arcane puissance) and would collapse utterly (and then be repaired and sealed) as soon as you released them.

[Lord_Gareth]

She's like a university professor. That sorta generically-friendly female one, late 40s or 50s but seems kind of ageless, likes you as a student but has a really big class, is willing to partake in debate but will end discussion when she feels it's enough.

...I love her. Can I get a picture of her holy symbol so I can totally start a cult?
Yaaaaaaaaaaaaay cults!

What sort of tasks are her paladins/assorted worshippers set to by her? What sort of tasks/quests does her church set? Is her church more focused on redemption, or guilt/penance?

[Lord_Gareth]

Ever been near a construction site? Or have dental work done? Picture the most horribly screeching, grating, painful drilling sound you've ever heard in your life. Multiply it by about three; now add in the horrific squeal of tires and record scratches as this drill navigates a four-dimensional multiplanar fold. Now make that loud enough to shatter glass and put supersonic fighter jets and rock concerts to shame.

Oh yeah. He'd know.

I was thinking more along the lines of a being clever/twisted/utterly insane enough to navigate the four-dimensional shell without breaking anything. Or at least by breaking as little as necessary. But it's nice to know the forced-entry scenario ^_^

[afroakuma]

I was thinking more along the lines of a being clever/twisted/utterly insane enough to navigate the four-dimensional shell without breaking anything. Or at least by breaking as little as necessary. But it's nice to know the forced-entry scenario ^_^

Ah, see, I saw the "tunneled" in the other half and... :smalltongue:

He'd know about something sneaking its way in, but not immediately. Of course, it's not a simple proposition.

[Lord_Gareth]

Is sneaking out the same way equally difficult? Would Zihaja care, since you're not disrupting his plane?

I must leave now - I'll read your answers another day.

[afroakuma]

Is sneaking out the same way equally difficult?

It would be practically impossible, since you'd first have to determine which way is "out."


Would Zihaja care, since you're not disrupting his plane?

He has had it with these Maqur-fighting sneaks on his Martuakh-fearing plane!!! No, probably not. Your loss.

[Juhn]

Yup. Or more specifically, the people who would normally have access to the commune spell don't get it at all. Contact other plane met a similar fate.

Ah. So it's an anti-cheese measure, then?

Tell me, do paladins have a way to deliberately contact a deity, or does Zaia talk to them first? From what it's looking like, you can talk to your deity (assuming he/she/it is self-aware enough), you just have to wait for him/her/it to call you.

[afroakuma]

Ah. So it's an anti-cheese measure, then?

Well, that and something about keeping true to the source material. Also, the Aspects probably don't want to talk to you.


Tell me, do paladins have a way to deliberately contact a deity

Killer UMD check on a scroll of commune?


or does Zaia talk to them first? From what it's looking like, you can talk to your deity (assuming he/she/it is self-aware enough), you just have to wait for him/her/it to call you.

That would be more likely, yes. And rarely happens.

Moral: don't count on talking to your god. Ever. Screw you and your hopes, Juhn. :P

[Juhn]

Screw you and your hopes, Juhn. :P

Yes, I've noticed that you seem to enjoy crushing my hopes.

[afroakuma]

Yes, I've noticed that you seem to enjoy crushing my hopes.

Well, you always have the same ones. Pick new hopes. Maybe I won't crush those.

Honestly: if you ever find something I say that would make the aforementioned hopes a potentiality, I will repudiate, deny, retcon and even mea culpa said thing away. No Zihaja.

[Zeta Kai]

He has had it with these Maqur-fighting sneaks on his Martuakh-fearing plane!!! No, probably not. Your loss.

He's been waiting for three threads to say that folks. I hope it was good for you, too.


Ah. So it's an anti-cheese measure, then?

Not really. The voters chose the basics of our cosmology (Yin/Yang planes), which cuts out all access to the Ethereal, Astral, Shadow, Elemental, & Outer Planes. A lot of spells specifically rely on these spells in order to function. No planes, no spells. The significant caster nerf is a side effect of this consequence. We have a list of spells that are banned, as well as some that may require some modification.

[Hyozo]

afroakuma, did you miss my questions here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6331771&postcount=614), or are you intentionally ignoring them? No offense taken either way, I just want to know if it was an honest mistake, or if they're on the "not talking about it" and/or "dandan level irrelevance" lists.

[afroakuma]

He's been waiting for three threads to say that folks. I hope it was good for you, too.

Lies. I came up with that just then. I've never even seen that film.


The significant caster nerf is a side effect of afroakuma hating Batman wizards. We have a list of spells that are banned, as well as some that may require some modification.

I'll be right back; I want to murder this CPU fan. :smallfurious:

[Juhn]

Also, my questions above those.

I do have a question regarding Zaia: how would your average Lizardfolk community view her? Their philosophies seem to be very compatible to me.

[Zeta Kai]

I've never even seen that film.

It's not nearly as bad as you'd think, & in fact, is a rather enjoyable action/disaster movie. Mostly due to the power of the L.

[QUOTE=afroakuma;6333256]Afro smash Batman wizard! :smallfurious:

Curb your ire, my friend. In real life, people play true Batman wizards about as often as they play Joker monks. Or Pun-Pun. They're just CharOp builds that rarely get used IRL.

I'm more concerned with CoDzilla, which needs much less effort to wreak havoc.

[afroakuma]

This samandar does seem like an interesting monster. Which plane does it live in?

Not telling. Neither.


Is it sentient?

Yes.


Does its diet include adventurers?

If by that you mean "does it kill them," then the answer is "occasionally." If you're actually talking about eating them, then no.


Also, my questions above those.

Which?


I do have a question regarding Zaia: how would your average Lizardfolk community view her. their philosophies seem to be very compatible to me.

As I said, she's pretty well-received in a small fashion. Lizardfolk communities on the fringes of major religions' territories might give her more consideration.

[Hyozo]

Curb your ire, my friend. In real life, people play true Batman wizards about as often as they play Joker monks. Or Pun-Pun. They're just CharOp builds that rarely get used IRL.

Says you. I know one group at my school with two of them.

Watching them play has convinced me that Batman wouldn't be as awesome if the authors wanted the Joker to win.:smallamused:

[Juhn]

Which?

These ones right here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6331350&postcount=608).

[afroakuma]

These ones right here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6331350&postcount=608).

Huh. Don't know how I missed 'em.


Anything here upon which you could elaborate? Which parties would typically be involved? What would be the circumstances surrounding such a duel?

Even Zeta doesn't know that yet (although I wager he's starting to suspect...) so I can't disclose the answer publicly at this time.


Sih Daroga is a sphinx, and so far as I can tell something close to a divine being. I take it he is quite exceptional for a sphinx, especially considering they were filed under "beasts"?

Yes indeedy. He's an albino, for one thing.


What the heck are these, and are they literally divine?

Boids. And yes, they are divine in the same way that, say, a cleric is.

[Thane of Fife]

I'm more concerned with CoDzilla, which needs much less effort to wreak havoc.

Couldn't you add some kind of feat to allow clerics to have their buffs affect other party members, in the same way a druid can affect both himself and his animal companion? That should at least alleviate that many of the best buffs are self-only.

If that would be horribly broken, attribute it to my lack of experience with 3.x.

[afroakuma]

Couldn't you add some kind of feat to allow clerics to have their buffs affect other party members, in the same way a druid can affect both himself and his animal companion? That should at least alleviate that many of the best buffs are self-only.

If that would be horribly broken, attribute it to my lack of experience with 3.x.

That would be... horrific.

[Juhn]

Couldn't you add some kind of feat to allow clerics to have their buffs affect other party members, in the same way a druid can affect both himself and his animal companion? That should at least alleviate that many of the best buffs are self-only.

If that would be horribly broken, attribute it to my lack of experience with 3.x.
No, you see, to my understanding, the problem is that clerics and druids are too good as they are now. Making them better would be... a bad idea.

Also:
He's an albino, for one thing.I would think that albinism would be a rather unfortunate thing to have in a desert setting.

[afroakuma]

No, you see, to my understanding, the problem is that clerics and druids are too good as they are now. Making them better would be... a bad idea.

I don't know about better. They'll be... different, anyway.


Also:

I would think that would be rather unfortunate in a desert setting.

Well, that's why he resides on Najmah.

[Juhn]

Well, that does make sense.

[afroakuma]

Groovy. Twenty-two?!??!??! This thread needs some lead.

[Juhn]

Somehow I find myself without things to ask. This is strange.

Also, do you find something remarkable about the current page number?

[Zeta Kai]

Also, do you find something remarkable about the current page number?

We had planned (& stated) that this would be the last discussion thread, & that by the time it was done, we'd be ready to publish. However, this is also the fastest-growing discussion thread so far, & it's already up to 22 pages in like 2 weeks. That's way too fast for our tastes. At this rate, we will not be ready. We'll be lucky to have all the 3E crunch done by then, & it will take time to get three opinionated people to agree on the fluff's final draft.

[Juhn]

Well, to be honest, I doubt anyone will hold it against you folks if we have another thread. After all, it'd be our faults for talking too much. Don't let the speed with which a thread moves cause you to rush through this project, as that would be absurd.

[Thane of Fife]

No, you see, to my understanding, the problem is that clerics and druids are too good as they are now. Making them better would be... a bad idea.

Right, I understand that. My thinking was that it would Zeta said he was worried about Clericzilla. It is my general understanding that the idea behind clericzilla is that he buffs himself to be better than the fighter. This way, he would also be buffing the fighter, which would hopefully stop the cleric from becoming better than him (at combat, anyway). It would make the cleric better, but indirectly.

But I'm willing to accept that it's a bad idea.

[afroakuma]

The most specific buff of concern, divine power, is always better for anyone who is not a fighter or other martial class. In other words, as a buff, it improves all party members who are not already good at combat to the same level, which still leaves your fighters in the lurch.

[Zeta Kai]

divine power

Yeah, I've never liked that spell, or the jerk who abused in one of my old campaigns just to show up the fighter. I'm not going to ban it from the setting though. I'll let DM's decide for themselves.

[afroakuma]

I'm not going to ban it from the setting though.

I thought that was my job? :smallconfused:

[Zeta Kai]

I thought that was my job? :smallconfused:

Put the ban-hammer down, Afro. People will expect me to stat it up. :smallwink:

[LordZarth]

Thane, the problem isn't really that CoDzilla > Fighter, the problem is that CoDzilla = Fighter + Cleric + Awesome.

[Zeta Kai]

Thane, the problem isn't really that CoDzilla > Fighter, the problem is that CoDzilla = Fighter + Cleric + Awesome.

Let's not forget the druid who decides to spend all her time Wild Shaped as a bear. And still casting spells. :smallsigh:

The guy who wrote Natural Spell should be shot. What self-respecting game designer thought that was a good idea? The thing has no prerequisites besides being a druid.

[LordZarth]

The guy who wrote Natural Spell should be shot. What self-respecting game designer thought that was a good idea? The thing has no prerequisites besides being a druid.

Actually, Zeta, do you have any ideas for a NS fix? Because I think it's a really good idea in of that everyone (read: me) wants to be able to cast while in WS... but it's broken. So I ask: besides getting rid of it, can it be fixed? Limited?

[Alteran]

I can think of a few things, but I'm not sure how balanced they are.

Make it a feature of a prestige class? Maybe the capstone on a 5 or 10 level prestige class that focuses on wild shape.

Have harsher prerequisites for the existing feat. No multiclassing allowed, minimum skill ranks, whatever is achievable but not so easy or convenient.

Change the feat, give it more limits. For example, you can't use your two or three highest level spell slots. That means a 12th level Druid (highest spell level 6th) could only use 4th (or 3rd) level spells and lower while in wild shape.

[Lappy9000]

The guy who wrote Natural Spell should be shot. What self-respecting game designer thought that was a good idea? The thing has no prerequisites besides being a druid.Amen.

I'm interested to (eventually) see the changes you guys have made to core. I dunno if it's been asked or not, but will pre-existing core prestige classes (shadowdancer, mystic theruge, etc) be changed, or left alone?

[Zeta Kai]

Actually, Zeta, do you have any ideas for a NS fix? Because I think it's a really good idea in of that everyone (read: me) wants to be able to cast while in WS... but it's broken. So I ask: besides getting rid of it, can it be fixed? Limited?

Well, the main problem is the fact that it's so good that any druid without it is clearly at a disadvantage. This could be balanced with tougher prerequisites. The requirements for taking NS are:

Wisdom 13+
Wild Shape class feature

Those two are basically asking you, "Are you a 5th level druid? Did you put any thought at all into what a druid's stats should be? Then here, cash in a feat to buy off one of the only restrictions of your class!"

Unless you made it to 5th level as a druid who has Wisdom as a dump stat, you're gonna have Wisdom 13+. I've played with/as/against dozens of druids, & the only druid that I've ever seen who couldn't qualify for this was a guy who purposefully tried to play a gimped character; waited until 9th level to get NS (what a sacrifice). It's a given; imagine a feat that let casters completely ignore arcane spell failure chances for armor. Now imagine that the feat's prerequisites were Summon Familiar class feature & Int/Cha 13+. You have every caster in full plate armor shooting off magic missiles like it was the 4th of July, & the game would go to hell before 7th level. That's the insanity that NS creates.

Unfortunately, cleaning up the entirely of WotC's mess cannot be done by one man, or even one Build Team. And we're focus on making a great campaign setting, not a 3E overhaul/total-conversion. That's just a little beyond our scope.

[afroakuma]

Amen.

I'm interested to (eventually) see the changes you guys have made to core. I dunno if it's been asked or not, but will pre-existing core prestige classes (shadowdancer, mystic theruge, etc) be changed, or left alone?

Arcane archer and Red Wizard are both out. Gate has been massacred. Thw Sor/Wiz spell list has taken a pounding.

[unosarta]

What will happen to the Horizon Walker Prestige Class?

I am assuming that it is being either thrown out/replaced, but gimping one of the only good Core melee PrCs is not very nice to fighter types out there [although the feats that you have made might make up for it.]

[Zeta Kai]

Arcane archer and Red Wizard are both out. Gate has been massacred. Thw Sor/Wiz spell list has taken a pounding.

For a lot of our changes, just remember folks: you voted for it. We're just implementing all the consequences of those votes.


What will happen to the Horizon Walker Prestige Class?

The HW stops at 5th level. Sorry, but there are no planes to explore.

[Lappy9000]

For a lot of our changes, just remember folks: you voted for it. We're just implementing all the consequences of those votes.Naturally. I just want to know the nature of said consequences :smallwink:

[Juhn]

I take it that it's a good thing that none of these changes distress me at all? Of course, none of my campaigns really got to a high enough level for a lot of that stuff to be feasible, but I'm not the type who engages in ridiculous cheese as it is.

Actually, the one time I played a wizard, he spent his time beating people to death with his staff. Of course, that was the first time any of us had played the game, and none of us knew what we were doing.

[Set]

Well, the main problem is the fact that it's so good that any druid without it is clearly at a disadvantage.

When I first saw it, I thought it was a metamagic feat, and that the Druid would have to specifically prepare a spell in the beginning of the day as a Natural Spell or normally. If it was a Natural Spell, he could *only* cast it while Wild Shaped.

At lower levels, when the Druid might only have a single Wild Shape use per day, this would be a serious tactical choice. Which spells do I want to be able to cast *only* in animal form, and which ones do I want to be able to cast in my normal form?

That might be one solution.

Just ditching the feat entirely would probably be easier. Wild Shape functioning similarly to Tenser's Transformation, and being spellcasting-adjacent, works fine as well.

[Zeta Kai]

When I first saw it, I thought it was a metamagic feat, and that the Druid would have to specifically prepare a spell in the beginning of the day as a Natural Spell or normally. If it was a Natural Spell, he could *only* cast it while Wild Shaped.

At lower levels, when the Druid might only have a single Wild Shape use per day, this would be a serious tactical choice. Which spells do I want to be able to cast *only* in animal form, and which ones do I want to be able to cast in my normal form?

That, my friend, is a damn good idea. That's the way that it should've been, for sure. I'm gonna pass that along to Fax.

Druids kinda got ignored when it came to metamagic. Sure, they could take any of them if they really wanted to, but they weren't geared towards druid in any way. Metamagic is for wizards & sorcerers, & clerics who wanna break the game with cheese. You version of NS would've been a fabulous druid-oriented metamagic feat.

[afroakuma]

Concurred. Rather strongly.

[Sereg]

That is a good though not a new idea. I've even seen a suggestion that it should increase the spell level by 2 as though silenced and stilled. I suppose that depends on whether or not you decide to keep the original prereguisites.

[paddyfool]

I'd go for that. Natural Spell as a metamagic with a +2 modifier, to enable you to cast the spell in either form, or as a metamagic with a +1 modifier, to enable you to cast while shapeshifted only. You could call it "greater" and "lesser" if you liked, and give Druids some tricky tactical choices between them. So, let's see now:

Lesser natural spell (+1 metamagic): Any spell this is applied to may be cast while in wild shape, and only then. Prerequisites: Wis 13+, Wild shape class ability.

Greater natural spell (+2 metamagic): Any spell this is applied to may be cast either while in wild shape or while not. Prerequisites: Wis 15+, Wild shape class ability, Lesser natural spell.

Hmmm... I doubt the "greater" version would see much play. Should we give some other bonus to it? We could add "while cast in wild shape, a spell this is applied to lasts twice as normal as usual, as extend spell". An extended duration is generally quite useful for a druid, what with summoning/buffs, without being overpowered. We could also add extend spell to the prerequisites in that case, which would make this far from a shoe-in. Or am I overcomplicating things?

[Mercenary Pen]

Or am I overcomplicating things?

While this is very interesting, I really think that it deserves its own topic, rather than to stay here and derail the VUACS thread. besides, with a new, carefully labelled topic, you'll get more people to come in and critique this than just a portion of the VUACS mob.

[Zeta Kai]

While this is very interesting, I really think that it deserves its own topic, rather than to stay here and derail the VUACS thread. besides, with a new, carefully labelled topic, you'll get more people to come in and critique this than just a portion of the VUACS mob.

Agreed; please continue NS-related issues elsewhere. We're not changing it for VUACS anyway, as it is beyond our scope.

Next topic: Who's interested in magic rituals?

[Set]

Next topic: Who's interested in magic rituals?

[Raises hand.]

Rituals like the True Rituals from Relics & Rituals? Or similar to 4E? Or similar to those neat-o Incantations from Unearthed Arcana?

Heck, I cheated and made a 'reverse metamagic' feat that allowed a spellcaster to use a lower level slot to cast a spell by increasing the casting time by 10, and called it 'Ritual Spell'...

So many possible ways that one could adopt ritual magic into a game!

[paddyfool]

While this is very interesting, I really think that it deserves its own topic, rather than to stay here and derail the VUACS thread. besides, with a new, carefully labelled topic, you'll get more people to come in and critique this than just a portion of the VUACS mob.

Good idea - thank you! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115766)

[SlyGuyMcFly]

Agreed; please continue NS-related issues elsewhere. We're not changing it for VUACS anyway, as it is beyond our scope.

Next topic: Who's interested in magic rituals?

*Raises hand*

Are getting any divining rituals? Like entrail reading and the like?

[Comet]

Are getting any divining rituals? Like entrail reading and the like?
+1

The desert setting keeps reminding me of Dune, since I'm such a goddamn fanboy.
And no, please don't start shouting NO SANDWORMS, yet.

I'm talking about complex political intrigue, zealous conspiracies and mystical gifts of foresight that burden the leaders of men.
So, the questions:

-Do we have any shiny new divination rituals? (as Ferrus already asked)

-Are there any major NPCs known for their gift of prescience? (Oracle kings, treacherous desert-diviners, unearthly superbeings that see beyond the veil of time etc. etc.)

-All in all, would themes similar to Dune be proper for this setting? Have you guys read the book(s) and if so, has it been a source of inspiration at all?

Also.
Sand worms? :smalltongue:

[Juhn]

I believe the response to this the last seventy times it was asked was something along the lines of "There are worms. Some of them are purple." :smalltongue:

[afroakuma]

So, the questions:

-Do we have any shiny new divination rituals? (as Ferrus already asked)

Yes.


-Are there any major NPCs known for their gift of prescience? (Oracle kings, treacherous desert-diviners, unearthly superbeings that see beyond the veil of time etc. etc.)

Yes.


-All in all, would themes similar to Dune be proper for this setting? Have you guys read the book(s) and if so, has it been a source of inspiration at all?

I have not read the books, though through my usual process of osmotic curiosity I know the gist of it.

Generally speaking, I... don't believe so. This is really more Arabian Nights style fantasy, just with a bit grittier of a setting.

And to me, at least, Dune hasn't been an inspiration in any way whatsoever.


Also.
Sand worms? :smalltongue:

What about them??? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKnpUysCFik)

Like, these sandworms? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTN1RB_VCBA&feature=PlayList&p=E776D580B08B51C2&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=11)

Juhn already stole my usual punchline.

[Juhn]

I didn't steal anything. Note the quotes.

[afroakuma]

Regardless, you spoiled my intention to use it. :smalltongue:

[Juhn]

I apologize for propogating your memes, then? :smallconfused:

[LordZarth]

I apologize for propogating your memes, then? :smallconfused:

I think, Juhn, that you rolled a four on Sense Motive. You epically fail at detecting internet sarcasm and joking. ;)

[Set]

Could be worse, could be Mongolian Death Worms. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_Death_Worm)

[Sereg]

Could be worse, could be Mongolian Death Worms. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_Death_Worm)

Me like. *gazes hopefully with puppydog eyes in the direction of Afroakuma, Zeta Kai and Shadow Elf*

[afroakuma]

That would be a no.

This is an Arabian Nights setting, guys, not a desert setting.


No sandworms.

[Zeta Kai]

That would be a no.

This is an Arabian Nights setting, guys, not a desert setting.

Agreed; the Mongolian Death Worm is in the wrong part of the world, with the wrong mythological origins, for our setting. Indeed, all sandworms (such as from Dune, from Beetlejuice, & from elsewhere) are beyond our scope, which is focused primarily (albeit not exclusively) on the 1,001 Nights & other pieces of Arabian folklore.

If you really want a sand worm, then here, have a Sand Worm. Now please take it somewhere else.

[Lord_Gareth]

Hrmm...you've said there's fighter rituals. Do any other classes get specific rituals? Any particular religions?

@Afro - You never answered my earlier questions regarding the kinds of tasks/holy quests worshippers/priests/paladins of Zaia are commonly sent on (you know, like how Pelor keeps sending his worshippers after the undead).

[afroakuma]

Hrmm...you've said there's fighter rituals. Do any other classes get specific rituals?

Yes.


Any particular religions?

Also yes.


@Afro - You never answered my earlier questions regarding the kinds of tasks/holy quests worshippers/priests/paladins of Zaia are commonly sent on (you know, like how Pelor keeps sending his worshippers after the undead).

Hmm, you're right, I didn't.

And now that I see them again: ain't gonna, either. :smallsmile:

[Lord_Gareth]

Mind spoiling a few rogue, barbarian, or bardic rituals? No crunch necessary, mind - just the sorts of things we might reasonably expect.

[afroakuma]

Mind spoiling a few rogue, barbarian, or bardic rituals? No crunch necessary, mind - just the sorts of things we might reasonably expect.

What, the classes that don't have class-exclusive rituals?

Yes, I do mind. :smalltongue:

[Lord_Gareth]

Oh goddamnit.

Fine, just spoil something :P

[afroakuma]

Oh goddamnit.

Fine, just spoil something :P

...your fun? Your day? Your good mood? :smallsmile:

I certainly haven't spoiled mine yet.

What would you like? And don't bother saying protohistory.

[Lord_Gareth]

I dunno, a low-level ritual from a religion? A high-level Zaian rite? Something epic-level that you have planned?

[afroakuma]

I dunno, a low-level ritual from a religion?

Ah, you mean like how the Limalians flog you before sending you out into the desert?

Tada.

Get away from rituals. Ask for something else.

Oh yes, you also asked about epic.

We assume that by epic levels (3.X, mind you) you'll be dead.

So, nothing really planned beyond 20. Heck, the most powerful NPC in the world is only level 27.

[Juhn]

We assume that by epic levels (3.X, mind you) you'll be dead.

...That's not ominous at all, right there.

[afroakuma]

...That's not ominous at all, right there.

Not remotely.

Any other questions or concerns to address?

[Juhn]

Well, with your epic tight-lipped-ness as regards what exactly happens when you die, all this high possibility of death is somewhat worrying.

[afroakuma]

Well, what do you expect? It's a harsh environment populated by poisonous critters and poisonous people. Not to mention your chosen career is one with a high mortality rate. :smalltongue:

[Mercenary Pen]

Well, with your epic tight-lipped-ness as regards what exactly happens when you die, all this high possibility of death is somewhat worrying.

What he doesn't want to admit to is that anyone who dies is immediately advanced to level 21...:smallwink:

Likewise, he's just said that he expects all epic adventurers to be dead...

Might we extrapolate from that that there's a massive adventuring circuit of technically-dead but still adventuring epic 3.x characters?:smalltongue:

Bearing in mind that near enough all 4e-side characters will just continue until they reach level 30 (ending up inherently more epic than their equivalent 3.x types).

[afroakuma]

...anyway. :smallconfused:

[Zeta Kai]

Bearing in mind that near enough all 4e-side characters will just continue until they reach level 30 (ending up inherently more epic than their equivalent 3.x types).

We haven't nailed it down as such, but my understanding is that a 30th level 4E character would roughly equal a 20th-22nd level 3E character. It's a bit nebulous & tricky to compare power levels in such disparate systems, but we foolishly bravely signed up for the task. :smallredface:

[SlyGuyMcFly]

Get away from rituals. Ask for something else.

Aww. And here I was gonna ask if there was one to discover the identity of the only person capable of entering a secret magical cave that contains... *cough* Nevermind.

Something else, then? Mmmnope. Got nothin´ :smallfrown:

[Comet]

What's the biggest flying monster in the setting?

[Zeta Kai]

What's the biggest flying monster in the setting?

Probably a Simurgh, although some of the oldest Desert Dragons get Colossal.

[vegetalss4]

Probably a Simurgh, although some of the oldest Desert Dragons get Colossal.

how much does your simurgh's resempel the mythological kind?

also any reason why Desert is spelled with capital D?

[Set]

also any reason why Desert is spelled with capital D?

I would imagine that it's for the same reason that blue is capitalized in Blue Dragon.

[Juhn]

So, we've heard quite a bit about certain aspects (Johoum, Qirus, Sidaru/Pashati to a degree), but there are a few who we still know next to nothing about. What's the deal with Waharim? Limalia? Daq?

[Shademan]

to be honest, i have not been paying much attention to this?
is it REALLY gonna be like arabian nights? 'cus i read thousand and one nights and I loved them!
Giant black muslim giants with swords at the size of five horses= MASSIVE WIN!

[afroakuma]

So, we've heard quite a bit about certain aspects (Johoum, Qirus, Sidaru/Pashati to a degree), but there are a few who we still know next to nothing about. What's the deal with Waharim? Limalia? Daq?

Waharim, as I understand it, is currently in hiding. Seems some sort of enormous mapmaking insect has been looking for him.

But I digress. Define "what's the deal" in terms of actual questions.

[Juhn]

Who are they (specifically, the aspects)? Where are they worshipped? By whom? What are their alignments/general dispositions? How about portfolios?

That good?

[afroakuma]

Who are they (specifically, the aspects)?

This one's still kind of vague. Clarify?


Where are they worshipped?

Limalia is worshiped on the seas, and also across most of the east. By sheer terrain, she's the deity with the widest swath. Waharim's more diffuse, but the Satha Laylanuha and a sort of S-shaped streak through the middle. Daq would be center/south.


By whom?

Well, Limalia covers pretty much everyone in the region. Waharim draws those who are attracted to his dogma, and Daq's "Third Way" ideology is attractive to youth, open-minded elders and those in tough situations.


What are their alignments/general dispositions?

lawful neutral true neutral and neutral evil.


How about portfolios?

Limalia's portfolio is travel, tribulation, trade, endurance and experience. Her unique domain is Hardship.

Waharim's portfolio is a secret. His unique domain is Contemplation.

Daq's portfolio includes choice, destiny, commitment, extremes, goals and direction. His unique domain is Destiny.

[Juhn]

This one's still kind of vague. Clarify?Well, like Johoum is the deity of the Sun, Sidaru is in charge of Death, etc. Limalia would appear to be a sea goddess.


Limalia is worshiped on the seas, and also across most of the east. By sheer terrain, she's the deity with the widest swath. Waharim's more diffuse, but the Satha Laylanuha and a sort of S-shaped streak through the middle. Daq would be center/south.I'm beginning to realize that these would probably be more helpful if we had a map with anything on it other than terrain.


Waharim draws those who are attracted to his dogmaWhich is, of course, a secret. :smallsigh:


lawful neutral true neutral and neutral evil. Somehow I doubt those are in the listed order.

[afroakuma]

Well, like Johoum is the deity of the Sun, Sidaru is in charge of Death, etc. Limalia would appear to be a sea goddess.

Eh, I'm not sure what you'd call her. Very broadly, I'd say she's the goddess of water, but she holds sway over the desert and the ocean both. Since more of her following is within the one than the other, if I had to go for straight classification I'd call her Goddess of the Desert.


I'm beginning to realize that these would probably be more helpful if we had a map with anything on it other than terrain.

Well, east and south are where they are supposed to be.


Which is, of course, a secret. :smallsigh:

Trust me, it's annoying a certain giant mutant cartographic bug, too.


Somehow I doubt those are in the listed order.

They are not. :smallamused:

Further inquiries?

[Juhn]

Trust me, it's annoying a certain giant mutant cartographic bug, too....You're even keeping secrets from the rest of the Build Team? Harsh.


They are not. :smallamused:Any chance we could get you to straighten those out, then?

[afroakuma]

...You're even keeping secrets from the rest of the Build Team? Harsh.

:smalltongue: More like I didn't write him up yet.


Any chance we could get you to straighten those out, then?

What do you think? :smallamused:

[Zeta Kai]

:smalltongue: [COLOR="White"]More like I didn't write him up yet.

This is one bug that will squash you if it doesn't get that aspect writeup soon. :smallwink:

[afroakuma]

Exposing my shenanigans, Zeta? Harsh. :smalltongue: Oh noes it founds me RUNN!NN!N!N!N!NN!N!N!N! AGH!

[Juhn]

What do you think? :smallamused:

I'm gonna guess that Limalia's the NE one, Waharim's the LN one, and Daq is the N one.

[afroakuma]

Your guess has been noted.

Further inquiries?

[Juhn]

So, you asked me to guess, and then you're not gonna let me know if I'm correct or not?

[afroakuma]

Yeah, you're right, now that I read it that seems like such a jerk move, and totally out of character for me. :smallamused:

I also didn't ask you to guess. You asked if there was any chance I'd tell you, and my response was "What do you think [about the likelihood of my telling you?]"

[Juhn]

Ah, I interpreted that as "What do you think the correct arrangement is?", not "Do you really think I'd tell?".

[afroakuma]

And now you know.

So; further inquiries?

[Shadow_Elf]

So; further inquiries?

A certain cross-bred elf in a suit of ebon is looking for completed rough draft of the timeline. Care to oblige?

[Zeta Kai]

A certain cross-bred elf in a suit of ebon is looking for completed rough draft of the timeline. Care to oblige?

A certain eight-eyed alien arthropoid is looking for a completed collection of 4E monsters. Hmmmm? BTW, Juhn, you're right about the alignments.

[afroakuma]

A certain disco-dancing dark lord apparently has a lot on his plate for tonight. :smallsigh:

[Shadow_Elf]

A certain eight-eyed alien arthropoid is looking for a completed collection of 4E monsters. Hmmmm? BTW, Juhn, you're right about the alignments.
Awww, I wanted to tell Juhn he was right!
Yessir, right away sir.

[afroakuma]

Regardless, we all have our roles to play in the events to come. And I'm fairly certain neither of you has proof of Waharim's alignment.
Let's get back to work, yes?

[Shadow_Elf]

And I'm fairly certain neither of you has proof of Waharim's alignment.

Its called "process of elimination" :smallamused:. Duh. :smalltongue:

[afroakuma]

It's called "lying to Juhn because I'm a jerk." Duh. :smallamused:

[Alteran]

A certain disco-dancing dark lord apparently has a lot on his plate for tonight. :smallsigh:

A certain geometric figure in festive attire is feeling left out. :smallfrown:

Also, I'm thinking of writing a short story with a character concept I had for an upcoming HoZ game. I'll probably do that in the next few days, but there's been a lot of things I've been meaning to do lately. Just...in case anybody was wondering, I suppose.

No new questions for the slavemaster, unfortunately. How's "slavemaster"? Would you prefer "Scourge of Men?"

[afroakuma]

No new questions for the slavemaster, unfortunately. How's "slavemaster"? Would you prefer "Scourge of Men?"

Vastly. I am a well-known misandrist, after all. :smallbiggrin:

[Alteran]

Vastly. I am a well-known misandrist, after all. :smallbiggrin:

If you're that well known as an antagonist, perhaps a broader title is in order.
Why, yes, of course this is relevant to HoZ discussion.
Bane of the Living? Earth's Blight? A Galaxy's Sorrow?

A Universe's Lament? Is that too much?

[afroakuma]

If you're that well known as an antagonist, perhaps a broader title is in order.
Why, yes, of course this is relevant to HoZ discussion.
Bane of the Living? Earth's Blight? A Galaxy's Sorrow?

A Universe's Lament? Is that too much?

Apocalyptic Singularity? Calamity From The Skies? That one's taken... Catastrophic Archnemesis of All Existence?

[Alteran]

Apocalyptic Singularity? Calamity From The Skies? That one's taken... Catastrophic Archnemesis of All Existence?

That last one does have a nice ring to it.

Heart of Despair? Eldest Evil?

Or, better yet, just Afroakuma. Take no title, merely let humanity feel your wrath until they feel the greatest hatred, despair, and fear whenever they hear your name spoken. Twisting your name into a dreaded phrase uttered only by the mad and the forsaken does things for your street cred that a fancy moniker just can't match.

[afroakuma]

That last one does have a nice ring to it.

Doesn't it, though? Matches up with "AA" too technically..., which is nice.


Eldest Evil?

I'm not "old," I'm 21. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAaWvVFERVA)

[Juhn]

Bah, you've only got a year and a bit on me.

Alas, I cannot get in on the describing-myself game, for I lack visual representation.

[Alteran]

I'm not "old," I'm 21. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAaWvVFERVA)

I'm not old! I'm 21! That's not old! Twenty! One! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html)

While your current physical manifestation may not be old, the same cannot be said for your blackest of souls. Indeed, we have cause to believe that you are pure primordial evil in physical form. Terror given flesh, hatred given blood, despair given bone. Once the gods had finished weaving the many worlds from the threads of the young universe, they took all that was unholy and vile and they sequestered it in a single black orb, whose flawless inky depths conceal terrors the likes of which no mortal can even attempt to comprehend. Over time, this globe, the root of all that is evil, collected stray dust and light until it had enough matter to form a new shell. It then descended to the world, to sow chaos and evil throughout all of creation.
Off-topic, whee!
This shell is the body of Afroakuma, and the sphere at its core his wretched heart. No man can withstand his wrath, and the gods themselves quiver with fear when he turns to gaze upon them. He is their greatest mistake - unwilling to spread evil thinly throughout the worlds, they concentrated it, inadvertently creating this horrible mimicry of life. When the end of days comes, his blackness will swell and envelop all of creation in a horrible gloom. All that is good and holy will dissolve, fading into eternal blackness, never-ending grief and despair. And when this time comes, the gods will have no recourse. They themselves will be torn asunder, their divine essence absorbed and twisted for terrible purpose. They shall be the fuel for the ultimate fall of the universe, the final collapse into entropy and nothingness. It shall be the ultimate punishment for their ultimate mistake.

[afroakuma]

Enough diversions. New questions!!!

[Zeta Kai]

A humorous as this may be, this topic is doing nothing but derailing the thread & needlessly stroking Afro's swollen ego. :smallamused: Please choose a new topic.