PDA

View Full Version : Vote Up A Campaign Setting: Discussion Thread III



Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5 6

afroakuma
2009-06-08, 07:07 PM
Welcome back, folks! The discussion of Hourglass of Zihaja has grown beyond the confines of three threads now, but this will be the last!

We've ventured far in our trek to tease and mystify, and in doing so have painted you all a picture of our worlds. Though many mysteries await to uncover, and still more will not reveal themselves until the setting is released, you have now been given glimpses of:

• Akasha and Sunya, the opposed demideities of night and day, who have inherited a divine conflict from parts as yet unknown.
• The great god Zihaja, whose past under another name is as concealed as his palace.
• Fearsome creatures such as ghuls, she-da-zhong and shaghals, and the dark powers that back them.
• The Ten Aspects that form the great religions of Siraaj, and the historical figures (or lack thereof) that underpin them.

We look forward to continuing to explore this vast and promising setting with you all.

Juhn
2009-06-08, 07:32 PM
Ah, new thread!

Though I'm mildly disappointed that this one hasn't come with a teaser. Hopefully, that's only a "yet".

afroakuma
2009-06-08, 07:44 PM
Ah, new thread!

Though I'm mildly disappointed that this one hasn't come with a teaser. Hopefully, that's only a "yet".

What would you like to see?

LordZarth
2009-06-08, 07:45 PM
What would you like to see?

I would like to see a lorepost dealing directly with an Aspect, especially it's rise/fall to power, Zihaja's palace, or the Pit of Fate.

Alteran
2009-06-08, 07:48 PM
I would also be very interested to see a lore like that. The topic of an ascending/falling aspect would be my first choice, if that's taken into consideration.

afroakuma
2009-06-08, 07:54 PM
Zihaja's palace, or the Pit of Fate.

No. :smallannoyed:

Juhn
2009-06-08, 07:55 PM
Well, the basic function of a teaser is to show us stuff we don't know about yet, so asking me that question is kind of odd. :smallconfused:

LordZarth
2009-06-08, 07:59 PM
No. :smallannoyed:

Well, I didn't expect any Zihaja-palace spoilering, but I didn't realize that the Pit was so hush-hush! I assume because it has to do with death, which has to do with cosmology and souls and life and therefore the Big Man up in the multicoloured palace.

Aspects? We can the having?

afroakuma
2009-06-08, 08:12 PM
The Fall of Maqur

The armies of the Witch Queen had seized the efreeti's city and built a temple in her honor; now they guarded it against the asp-men of her former tribe, who bowed before her arcane flames but had colluded with the humans to strike her down.

The Scarlet Shahbanu was now the living idol of her enthralled devotees, and as they swarmed around the black temple, not a creature among them thought but to spend their lives for the glory of Maqur.

The humans had come forth, despite treachery and suspicion sown among them by Maqur's wicked power. Their leaders pressed forward on the stairs, ascending to where the Witch Queen lay with her consorts. Even in the haze of lust, Maqur could see the approach of the foe she had known was coming, had prepared for.

As the human general brought forth his heroic blade, the Harlot Princess' serpentine eyes flashed red. She passed a single taloned finger over her lips, then grasped at her breast. Dark energies danced around her hand, and the mortal hero was forced to stand back.

Suddenly, he fell to his knees, coughing blood, and in that time the witch had revealed herself in all her dark glory, throwing up columns of flame to wreath the temple's peak. As her consorts fled in fear and panic, she touched the arm of one, whose life fled from him. Her demonic smile betraying infinite malice, Maqur tore the trusting soul away from her lover and threw it as baleful red lightnings against her opponents.

This was Maqur's triumph, and her power was complete. Her devotees turned to witness the glory atop the dark ziggurat, and her most faithful raised a horrific chant of dark veneration.

As her victory took form and life, the Witch Queen cast her head back to the skies in fiendish glee - only for a look of absolute terror to paint itself on her face.

In a screaming torrent of red lightnings that rushed through the temple, the Scarlet Shahbanu vanished, erased from sight by a pillar of white flame from the heavens, impossible in magnitude. As her faithful watched, uncomprehending, they too were burned away by the fires from above. As her mortal followers turned and fled, the she-da-zhong who had believed in her cast aside the symbols of Maqur and retreated into the darkness.

That day, the temple city of Maqur was melted from the earth, and those sworn to her as well.

Juhn
2009-06-08, 08:37 PM
I forget whether Maqur was the imprisoned aspect, the obliterated aspect, or the aspect that went into hiding (though, considering that lore post, I'd guess she's the second of those three).

Does she still grant divine power, even after that?

LordZarth
2009-06-08, 08:39 PM
The Fall of Maqur

In a screaming torrent of red lightnings that rushed through the temple, the Scarlet Shahbanu vanished, erased from sight by a pillar of white flame from the heavens, impossible in magnitude. As her faithful watched, uncomprehending, they too were burned away by the fires from above. As her mortal followers turned and fled, the she-da-zhong who had believed in her cast aside the symbols of Maqur and retreated into the darkness.

That day, the temple city of Maqur was melted from the earth, and those sworn to her as well.

Purple Man has a flair for the dramatic, I see.

What's a she-da-zhong? Is that even singular?

afroakuma
2009-06-08, 08:46 PM
I forget whether Maqur was the imprisoned aspect, the obliterated aspect, or the aspect that went into hiding (though, considering that lore post, I'd guess she's the second of those three).

That would be correct. One of two.


Does she still grant divine power, even after that?

She doesn't. She's dead.

The three spells she used are the 3rd, 6th and 9th level spells of her exclusive domain, however.

Alteran
2009-06-08, 08:46 PM
I forget whether Maqur was the imprisoned aspect, the obliterated aspect, or the aspect that went into hiding (though, considering that lore post, I'd guess she's the second of those three).

Does she still grant divine power, even after that?


[
In a screaming torrent of red lightnings that rushed through the temple, the Scarlet Shahbanu vanished, erased from sight by a pillar of white flame from the heavens, impossible in magnitude. As her faithful watched, uncomprehending, they too were burned away by the fires from above.

Yep. Certainly seems like she's the obliterated one. Also, I may be mistaken, but isn't in Zihaja who (in some fashion) actually grants the divine power? I could easily be wrong about this, I've never been entirely clear on how that works.

afroakuma
2009-06-08, 08:49 PM
Yep. Certainly seems like she's the obliterated one. Also, I may be mistaken, but isn't in Zihaja who (in some fashion) actually grants the divine power? I could easily be wrong about this, I've never been entirely clear on how that works.

That would be correct. Zihaja now grants the divine power on behalf of Maqur and protects her dogma.

Is there any broad topic that someone would like a teaser on?

Juhn
2009-06-08, 08:55 PM
Yeah, I meant "can people still get divine power through worship of Maqur", as to my understanding Zihaja grants all the actual divine power in the setting.

Zeta Kai
2009-06-08, 08:55 PM
To be crystal clear, all of the aspects are worshiped as gods, but all worshipers derive their divine power directly from Zihaja. No one knows that there is only one true god, or what His name is. And Zihaja likes it that way. Anything to keep the status quo in place & in balance.

LordZarth
2009-06-08, 09:01 PM
Is there any broad topic that someone would like a teaser on?

Throwing out ideas: arctic, druids, houris, life on Najmah, underwater/marids, an ocean journey, discovery of a people, or even more aspect stories, because Maqur was awesome.

Juhn
2009-06-08, 09:07 PM
I'd personally like something on genies, as my current knowledge on genies is effectively "They were kicked out of Najmah by Rakshasa and are currently wandering around Siraaj". Also, Dao are fond of enslaving each other, Marids retain something of a culture, some people like to capture genies (though this kind of baffles me, as ostensibly the genies would have lost all their vast stores of treasure and whatnot when they were chased out of Najmah), and there are a few Efreeti glassblowers around.

Yeah, that's about the extent of it.

afroakuma
2009-06-08, 09:13 PM
Throwing out ideas: arctic, druids, houris, life on Najmah, underwater/marids, an ocean journey, discovery of a people, or even more aspect stories, because Maqur was awesome.

Waharim's story is comparatively boring. Actually, Sidaru's might be the coolest. I'll look into it.


I'd personally like something on genies, as my current knowledge on genies is effectively "They were kicked out of Najmah by Rakshasa and are currently wandering around Siraaj".

Well, that's not true at all.


Also, Dao are fond of enslaving each other

Untrue.


some people like to capture genies (though this kind of baffles me, as ostensibly the genies would have lost all their vast stores of treasure and whatnot when they were chased out of Najmah)

Wish.

:sigh: Fine. I guess since we're in the final thread, there's no use in me beating around the bush any longer.

Go load that Cirque video and stay tuned. I'm explaining it completely tonight.

Juhn
2009-06-08, 09:14 PM
Waitwaitwait. I'm finally getting that Sidaru lorepost I asked for so long ago?

afroakuma
2009-06-08, 09:16 PM
Look up. I have a priority.

I'm getting the Cirque thing out of the way. It should be worth... well, everyone's while, honestly.

Juhn
2009-06-08, 09:18 PM
Fine.

But you really need to stop taunting me with stuff which could be directly relevant to that character I'll eventually end up playing.

Alteran
2009-06-08, 09:18 PM
Afraid I can't play along tonight Afro, I have two exams to be ready for tomorrow.

Wait...what am I doing on GitP again? Right, not studying. :smallsigh:

afroakuma
2009-06-08, 09:20 PM
Fine.

But you really need to stop taunting me with stuff which could be directly relevant to that character I'll eventually end up playing.

Considering that the lorepost in question would be the origin of Sidaru, it will not be relevant.

Juhn
2009-06-08, 09:24 PM
I'd consider it relevant to my interests, at the very least.

LordZarth
2009-06-08, 09:26 PM
Afraid I can't play along tonight Afro but will, I have two exams to be ready for tomorrow.

Wait...what am I doing on GitP again? Right, not studying. :smallsigh: I hate exams. And yes, I stoled Alderan's post because it describes me.

Alteran
2009-06-08, 09:28 PM
Afraid I can't play along tonight Afro but will, I have two exams to be ready for tomorrow.

Wait...what am I doing on GitP again? Right, not studying. :smallsigh: I hate exams. And yes, I stoled Alderan's post because it describes me.

There's a t in that name of mine, you'll notice. :smallwink:

Also, yes. You described what I'm doing perfectly. :smallannoyed:

Zeta Kai
2009-06-08, 09:33 PM
They cannot resist. :smallamused:

LordZarth
2009-06-08, 09:33 PM
Also, yes. You described what I'm doing perfectly. :smallannoyed:

I wonder how I guessed? :smallcool:

LordZarth
2009-06-08, 09:34 PM
So, uh, Zeta. I have a question. Who was Zihaja before he became Zihaja? *Furtively hopes Afro doesn't notice* Come on, Zeta, you can tell us...

Juhn
2009-06-08, 09:38 PM
Is it wrong that that particular piece of forbidden knowledge doesn't really tempt me in any way?

LordZarth
2009-06-08, 09:40 PM
Is it wrong that that particular piece of forbidden knowledge doesn't really tempt me in any way?

Oops, I accidentally Juhn
...is this bad?

Zeta Kai
2009-06-08, 09:45 PM
So, uh, Zeta. I have a question. Who was Zihaja before he became Zihaja? *Furtively hopes Afro doesn't notice* Come on, Zeta, you can tell us...

Oh, that's easy! He was once known as <falls over unsurprisingly decapitated>...

LordZarth
2009-06-08, 09:47 PM
Oh, that's easy! He was once known as <falls over unsurprisingly decapitated>...

Oh no! I forgot about the lack of needing line of effect!

*cries* I think I accidentally Zeta...
...is this bad?

afroakuma
2009-06-08, 09:53 PM
The Price of Hubris

Dermanaske, First of the Archmagi, looked out over the Grand Bazaar. Three hundred and twenty of the greatest Admajai mages, one for each day of the year, stood in a great circle around the pool that led to beautiful Najmah, the paradise of the great genies, the world of perfection and calm.

Today, with the arcane power that they had been taught by their magical guests, the Archmagi of Admaja would engage in a great pact. They were enlightened, they had been told, and were welcome to abandon the harsh world of Siraaj and travel to Najmah.

The great potentate of the genies, a being at once mysterious and terrifying, had offered them this chance, so long ago. The people of the Admaja Empire had not been told. The Archmagi knew that they would not, could not, did not understand the great thing they would do this day. For the good of their people, they would bring the whole empire to Najmah.

Dermanaske closed his eyes in reminiscence, recalling his first experiments with the magic of the genies. His wonder at examining every facet of possibility, and at bringing forth the incredible and exotic from thin air. The genies asked such a small thing from them - to bring magic into Siraaj. How could they refuse? It was not as though the genies themselves wanted the Empire.

As the Archmagi waited, and the people went about their business, even as the waiting genies, unseen, lurked just beyond the veil, Dermanaske strode to the rift pool, with the pact gem in hand.

As he raised the gem above the dark, still water, he could feel the forces of magic swell around him to a great crescendo. One who could perceive it would have seen the maker of the pact gem miming his every move behind the veil, as though it would make the contract more complete, more binding. The First Archmage bent down and released the gem into the rift.

Thunder crackled in the skies overhead, which went dark as the sun vanished. The magic of the pact had been made. Dermanaske looked up expectantly, hoping to see the paradise of Najmah envelop his city, his empire.

What he saw instead brought ice to his veins. The great edifices of the Admajai began to tear from their foundations, cracking and crumbling as they were torn aloft into the dark rift above. Phantasmal light split the darkness, as the boundary between day and night was rent in two. The Archmagi were being scattered along with the city, as the entire empire - all that the First had worked for, dedicated himself to - was magically dragged into another world.

From out of the darkness came the forms of the genies, and then Dermanaske saw them as they truly were - the cold, stony Dao, the incandescent Efreeti, the mercurial, chaotic Marids and the deceptive, flighty Djinni. They came forth in droves, in hundreds, and their powers lit the phantom night.

The Archmage fell to his knees in horror and regret. He had made no bargain at all... he had sold his world to these uncaring spirits for magic and pride, and paid for the privilege with his empire.

Dark clouds boiled across the barren land where once had been cities and farms. From the remaining flagstones of the Great Bazaar, Dermanaske could see a few of his people in the wasted ruins. He tried to call to them, for he could see things in the darkness, hidden things he had never seen before. Wrathful things from the darkest shadows.

He tried to summon his magic, to seize the genies by force and demand their aid, but he could find none, for they were being seized by a greater power and cast away from physical life. Now they, too, scattered.

As his spirit broke, the Archmage had a fleeting vision of a door of solid opal cracking, and a white sphinx crying in the night. He saw his cities, smashed against the white sands and drowned in the midnight waters of a faraway realm. He saw a starlit palace, and a golden mask wearing a dispassionate frown.

And Dermanaske slipped into the pool, and slipped away from life. Thus began the years of darkness.

Lappy9000
2009-06-08, 10:01 PM
A-mazing. I don't even need any white text to describe my excitement :smallbiggrin:

afroakuma
2009-06-08, 10:02 PM
You already knew all this anyway. You also know what comes next.

For reference, this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUwzNuG5vLY) may finally make sense to people who aren't me, Zeta, Shadow or Lappy.

Juhn
2009-06-08, 10:03 PM
...Did you just manage to:

A) Explain that accursed video
B) Give me my genie info
C) Explain the "sold an empire for paradise and changed the course of two worlds" and
D) Move into the Ten Dark Years

All in one lore post?

...Nicely done, Mr. afroakuma.

afroakuma
2009-06-08, 10:06 PM
...Did you just manage to:

A) Explain that accursed video
B) Give me my genie info
C) Explain the "sold an empire for paradise and changed the course of two worlds" and
D) Move into the Ten Dark Years

All in one lore post?

...Nicely done, Mr. afroakuma.

I certainly hope I did.

For those who don't get what happened:

• The girl is Dermanaske.

• The hat represents the deal the genies offered, to trade worlds with the ancient Admajai empire.

• The parents are the people of the empire; their chairs the cities.

• The stupid clown is a genie waiting beyond the veil to direct the contract and remove the Admajai, tearing down the veil in the process.

• The figures in white are the ghuls, no longer hidden away and ready to fill the power vacuum. Ten Dark Years indeed.

Any questions for me, he said, knowing the answer?

Lappy9000
2009-06-08, 10:09 PM
You already knew all this anyway. You also know what comes next.Well, yah, but it's nice to see everything all snazzy and official.


For reference, this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUwzNuG5vLY) may finally make sense to people who aren't me, Zeta, Shadow or Lappy.Still love that video.

Juhn
2009-06-08, 10:12 PM
...So, who was the guy in the sewer, offering the girl the balloon, where the "stupid clown" was all "WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU DON'T TOUCH THAT"

Also, trade worlds? So, the genies moving to Siraaj was deliberate and voluntary?

Zeta Kai
2009-06-08, 10:13 PM
Still love that video.

Yeah, I knew the connection, but I never felt it strongly. Now, I see it in a whole new light, & it fills me with passion for this project anew. I truly do love this setting.

afroakuma
2009-06-08, 10:16 PM
...So, who was the guy in the sewer, where the "stupid clown" was all "WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU DON'T TOUCH THAT"

Feuding genie races. Dao vs. djinni, in all likelihood.

Stealing the shoes was taking the last of the Archmagi's relics from them.


Also, trade worlds? So, the genies moving to Siraaj was deliberate and voluntary?

Yep. They were tired of competing against devils, devas, demons and the rakshasa on Najmah, so they deliberately engineered a grand plan to get the ruling empire of Siraaj at the time to let them cross the veil en masse.

They paid the penalty.

Juhn
2009-06-08, 10:20 PM
...Whoa, I did not even notice Zihaja in the lorepost when I read it the first time. It's now several times awesomer, and it was awesome to begin with.

afroakuma
2009-06-08, 10:22 PM
Oh, they did bad.

They did very bad.

When the overdeity makes himself known and steps in, someone screwed up royally.

Lappy9000
2009-06-08, 10:24 PM
Yeah, I knew the connection, but I never felt it strongly. Now, I see it in a whole new light, & it fills me with passion for this project anew. I truly do love this setting.The music blends perfectly with the story, turning from whimsical fantasy to the utter destruction of a realm and the oncoming of darkness into the world.

But, now to derail, I'm looking forward to seeing more on gnolls. Maybe I've missed it (quite likely), but I don't recall a lot of everyone's favorite hyena men.

Juhn
2009-06-08, 10:24 PM
@afro: Speaking of which, every time I hear about stuff like this, I want to find out more about the inner workings of Kamala (or, rather, have PCs learn about them) less and less, because the more I learn, the creepier it gets.

Which is awesome to learn about, but would be terrifying to have happen to your character.

afroakuma
2009-06-08, 10:29 PM
@afro: Speaking of which, every time I hear about stuff like this, I want to find out more about the inner workings of Kamala (or, rather, have PCs learn about them) less and less, because the more I learn, the creepier it gets.

You guys have no idea. This is merely 400 years ago. Now, 4000 years ago...


Which is awesome to learn about, but would be terrifying to have happen to your character.

If I were to pick another era to play in, it would be the Ten Dark Years. Because you'd be a terrified refugee in a carved-apart world. Remember, the fall of Maqur happened after this. There was no Qirus at this time, no city-states, no Limalia, no Adimas.

I think this marks the turning point in selling you all on what we're working on. Which is a good thing.

Any further questions?

Alteran
2009-06-08, 10:31 PM
Maybe I've missed it (quite likely), but I don't recall a lot of everyone's favorite hyena men.

It's no surprise that they're the favourite. How many varieties are there, really? Maybe one other kind? It's like watching lizardfolk win the contest for best lizard-like humanoid. Who else is running? Troglodytes? Nobody like Troglodytes.

afroakuma
2009-06-08, 10:32 PM
It's no surprise that they're the favourite. How many varieties are there, really?

Two. Gnolls and shaghals.


Maybe one other kind?

Sure, but there aren't any flinds in this setting.


It's like watching lizardfolk win the contest for best lizard-like humanoid.

She-da-zhong. Well, reptile, anyway.

Juhn
2009-06-08, 10:33 PM
I think this marks the turning point in selling you all on what we're working on.

...No it doesn't. I've been utterly psyched about this since Thread 1. This is just you guys once again proving that every time I raise my expectations, they're still too low.

afroakuma
2009-06-08, 10:34 PM
Glad to see we have a committed audience.

As I said, this will be the last discussion thread. Next time a VUACS thread opens, it will be the setting itself.

Juhn
2009-06-08, 10:36 PM
...My first instinct was to rush to page 50. Then I realized that that won't actually affect how much work is left.

On the subject of awesome happenings, aspects, and lizardfolk (well, they were mentioned...), am I still getting that Sidaru lorepost tonight, or does the awesome need time to recharge before sufficient POWER can be output?

Alteran
2009-06-08, 10:37 PM
I should hope so, the second discussion thread lasted us about 4 months and two weeks. Unless you plan to have the release sometime in November, we shouldn't have finished this thread by then.

Also: I noticed when perusing the original thread that the deadline was originally sometime around Christmas. Has the amount of content for release significantly increased since then? Right now, would you say you've accomplished more/less than you originally wanted to have done for the release?

Juhn
2009-06-08, 10:38 PM
I remember them saying somewhere that they grossly underestimated the amount of content involved, and/or how much work they could get done in a particular length of time.

afroakuma
2009-06-08, 10:43 PM
On the subject of awesome happenings, aspects, and lizardfolk (well, they were mentioned...), am I still getting that Sidaru lorepost tonight, or does the awesome need time to recharge before sufficient POWER can be output?

Probably tomorrow. The awesome is fully charged and the POWER is always at maximum, but the vaguely carpal tunnel-like sensation in my dominant hand is telling me that I'm in big big trouble and should take a break.


Also: I noticed when perusing the original thread that the deadline was originally sometime around Christmas. Has the amount of content for release significantly increased since then? Right now, would you say you've accomplished more/less than you originally wanted to have done for the release?

The amount of content went up exponentially, as did the high-concept stuff (like the lore just posted) and our ambitions for the shape of the setting overall. Real-life events also imposed themselves.


I remember them saying somewhere that they grossly underestimated the amount of content involved, and/or how much work they could get done in a particular length of time.

This as well.

Zeta Kai
2009-06-08, 10:45 PM
Also: I noticed when perusing the original thread that the deadline was originally sometime around Christmas. Has the amount of content for release significantly increased since then? Right now, would you say you've accomplished more/less than you originally wanted to have done for the release?

Yeah, we were foolishly naive. The number of monsters ballooned, as did the feats, & the spells, & the domains. Plus we added rituals, fixed the poison rules, I made maps. The whole thing has gotten pretty insane. But just about everything is for the betterment of the setting, & adheres strongly to what was originally voted upon.

I look back to the original voting contest, & I laugh. I was praying for the Victorian/Steampunk genre to win. I had no real interest in an Arabian Nights-themed setting. Now I can't see myself doing anything else. I think the SP setting would've been lame in comparison to the epic sagas & wondrous mythologies that we've spun. This has been a collaboration that I won't soon forget.

afroakuma
2009-06-08, 10:51 PM
It's hilarious to look back and see us in panic mode that morning. :smallsmile:

Juhn
2009-06-08, 10:52 PM
Well, regardless of the immense workload and other insanity, I still find myself hoping (perhaps foolishly) that this won't be the last time you guys do this. I really do.

afroakuma
2009-06-08, 10:55 PM
When it's all said and done, VUAVXI and VUAPrC will finally happen. And I'll go finish the Beastlands.

After that, who can say? What repeat this insanity?

Zeta Kai
2009-06-08, 10:55 PM
It's hilarious to look back and see us in panic mode that morning. :smallsmile:

It wasn't funny then, but it's funny now. I could've choked the voters for thwarting my plans. :smallbiggrin: Oh well, it all worked out great.

Vadin
2009-06-08, 10:56 PM
And what were some of those plans, Zeta?

afroakuma
2009-06-08, 10:58 PM
We had both assumed before we went to our respective sleeps that Steampunk, the frontrunner and favorite at the time, was going to win; Zeta had made plans for the next poll on that assumption. I woke up early and saw that the vote had turned, and hastily cracked off the substitute poll for Arabian Nights/Desert Fantasy.

Juhn
2009-06-08, 10:58 PM
Looking back on the first post after hearing you guys reminisce about the first thread, I notice there's no link to the past 3 threads.

LordZarth
2009-06-08, 10:59 PM
So I assume that as usual, as soon as you release HoZ VUACS II will run.

...right?


In all seriousness, I am astounded and beboggled by the sheer intensity, creativity, research, and persistence you have all poured into this project which you are doing free for us.

Let me offer, on my behalf and behalf of all GiantITP, a huge and pre-emptive but not naive thanks to you: Afroakuma, Zeta Kai, and Shadow Elf.

Thank You!

Alteran
2009-06-08, 11:00 PM
Sure there is! They never updated the links in their signatures to go to the discussion threads, so you have a link to the original thread right there. :smalltongue:

afroakuma
2009-06-08, 11:00 PM
Looking back on the first post after hearing you guys reminisce about the first thread, I notice there's no link to the past 3 threads.

Threads shmeads.

Further questions before I go away for the evening?

LordZarth
2009-06-08, 11:02 PM
Threads shmeads.

Further questions before I go away for the evening?

Why?

Why this project? Why did it happen? What sparked the insanity awesomeness?

Zeta Kai
2009-06-08, 11:04 PM
Vote Up a Campaign Setting


Thread #1
Thread #2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98325)
Thread #3
Thread #4

Juhn
2009-06-08, 11:04 PM
I seem to remember Zeta making a comment when people were first noticing the whole "Holy crap, there's a lot of VUAxs around" about claiming Vote Up A Campaign Setting. He also appended that he was serious about the idea, though the fact that the very very first VUACS post opened with "Yes, we're actually doing this. For real." leads me to believe that he may not have been taken all too seriously at the time.

afroakuma
2009-06-08, 11:05 PM
Why?

Why this project? Why did it happen? What sparked the insanity awesomeness?

VUAM 2, I believe?

I called Vote Up A Prestige Class, and since we were in Zeta's thread he felt he had to one-up me in the only way possible. :smalltongue: I offered to join up.

Later on, Zeta went crazy went nuts and decided to proceed with it. At the time, the only other VUAs were Shadow and I. He invited us along for the ride, I usurped him at some point and the rest is history. :smallsmile:

Juhn
2009-06-08, 11:06 PM
I have a question of my own, actually. Once the setting is released, will "HQ" be opened up for viewing? I find myself seriously wanting to see what went on there, once it's not full of spoilers anymore.

Zeta Kai
2009-06-08, 11:08 PM
I have a question of my own, actually. Once the setting is released, will "HQ" be opened up for viewing? I find myself seriously wanting to see what went on there, once it's not full of spoilers anymore.

We've already discussed that, & the answer is YES.

afroakuma
2009-06-08, 11:09 PM
I have a question of my own, actually. Once the setting is released, will "HQ" be opened up for viewing? I find myself seriously wanting to see what went on there, once it's not full of spoilers anymore.

Hmm...

I think I would have to go in with a very fine-tooth comb and remove some things that the general public should not be privy to. Beyond that, though, I don't see why not. Zeta? Shadow? You two know which things I refer to.

Juhn
2009-06-08, 11:10 PM
I am far more excited than this post probably indicates.

Lord_Gareth
2009-06-08, 11:13 PM
Don't think I've forgotten about the Bladed Blob, Afro. You know what plane I'm voting on later :p

Personally, while this setting is full of awesome, I can't help but think I would have liked steampunk more. Oh well - perhaps next time.

Good news, Afro - the Paradigm Project is once again moving. The Ritualist may be finished before HoZ is ^_^

afroakuma
2009-06-08, 11:14 PM
What the - did you not read the epic lorepost? :smallconfused: bladed blob ah'ma gonna kill ev'ryone...

Juhn
2009-06-08, 11:18 PM
Methinks afro is somewhat offended.

Lord_Gareth
2009-06-08, 11:19 PM
I read both epic loreposts. Frankly, I'd already imagined the fall of Maqur (turns out that great minds happen to think like annoying bastards), but I still, honestly and truly, think steampunk would have been better. Maybe it's because I'm an urban arcana kinda guy; I love technomagic and dark, neofuedal secrets cloaked in cults caught halfway between progress and regression. Whatever the case, while this campaign setting is full of awesome, if you guys ever decide to go through this again I'm fervently voting steam ^_^

afroakuma
2009-06-08, 11:20 PM
Methinks afro is somewhat offended.

Just surprised that one of my biggest questioners has no interrogations regarding the biggest historical event I've disclosed so far.

Juhn
2009-06-08, 11:22 PM
Honestly, I almost voted sci-fi. Which would have been odd, but hopefully awesome.

Lord_Gareth
2009-06-08, 11:26 PM
Just surprised that one of my biggest questioners has no interrogations regarding the biggest historical event I've disclosed so far.

See above. The only question I could possibly ask is why the Big Z gets pissy about demonic cults, but not the Aspects. One would think it's irrelevant - unless He has an ego problem?

Juhn
2009-06-08, 11:27 PM
I think it has something to do with the fact that he's subsumed the aspects, but apparently not the demons being worshipped. Now why this is, I have little to no idea.

afroakuma
2009-06-08, 11:27 PM
By the way, it wasn't VUAM2, it was actually in the original VUAV. Both Shadow and I played a role. :smallsmile:


Afro/SE: I call Vote Up a Campaign Setting. Seriously.

afroakuma
2009-06-08, 11:31 PM
See above. The only question I could possibly ask is why the Big Z gets pissy about demonic cults, but not the Aspects. One would think it's irrelevant - unless He has an ego problem?

He's pissy because he can't risk subsuming any more divinities, and because they're a threat to the balance, and because they're numerous enough that he can't just wipe them from Kamala and hope the lovely stasis doesn't shatter.


I think it has something to do with the fact that he's subsumed the aspects, but apparently not the demons being worshipped. Now why this is, I have little to no idea.

After he subsumed Maqur, the balance shifted very sharply to one side. Were it not for Martuakh jumping in to fill the void, there would have been big, big, big trouble.

As is, the balance is now too precarious for Zihaja to directly step in anymore. The combination of the genies' shenanigans, five new Aspects and the rise of prominent demon cults has made the balancing act too risky.

Not to mention, there is historical precedent that Zihaja makes things worse when he acts directly.

Lord_Gareth
2009-06-08, 11:32 PM
Oh, so you get all offended that I didn't ask anything and ignore the question I DO ask? That's cold, Afro. That's real cold.

EDIT: Nevermind.

Juhn
2009-06-08, 11:34 PM
Wait wait wait. Martuakh jumping in was a good thing?

Also, did I perhaps coin an official verb?

afroakuma
2009-06-08, 11:35 PM
Wait wait wait. Martuakh jumping in was a good thing?

See why he's pissed?

Juhn
2009-06-08, 11:36 PM
Actually, I see it less now. I'm mostly just really confused.

Also, five new aspects? the number fully doubled in the last 400 years?

afroakuma
2009-06-08, 11:39 PM
Actually, I see it less now. I'm mostly just really confused.

Try and explain your confusion, I'll see if I can sort it out.


Also, five new aspects? the number fully doubled in the last 400 years?

Yep.

• Adimas
• Limalia
• Maqur
• Qirus
• Waharim

So, two major religions and three minor ones.

Lord_Gareth
2009-06-08, 11:42 PM
Does Zihaja even care about his creation anymore? If not, why does he bother? If he does, why?

Juhn
2009-06-08, 11:43 PM
Umaj the nonexistent is an old diety? And Waharim the nonexistent is a new one?

As for why I'm confused, it's mostly that I'm seeing his highest priority as maintaining the balance, and that his being surprised to find out that something he originally thought was bad is actually helping him caused him to become even angrier confused me.

...Parsing that sentence may be interesting.

afroakuma
2009-06-08, 11:52 PM
Does Zihaja even care about his creation anymore? If not, why does he bother? If he does, why?

Of course he does. He just has learned that taking an active interest in it typically results in awful things happening.


Umaj the nonexistent is an old diety? And Waharim the nonexistent is a new one?

Waharim existed. He's like Maqur; he got smote.


As for why I'm confused, it's mostly that I'm seeing his highest priority as maintaining the balance, and that his being surprised to find out that something he originally thought was bad is actually helping him caused him to become even angrier confused me.

...Parsing that sentence may be interesting.

It's angering him because the demon deities do not answer to him, and don't care for his rules. Suppose Martuakh cranks up his power base. The balance would skew. Zihaja could not take action because he'd likely break the balance.

Basically, it's like if your football team had to fire a player and would be disqualified for having too few people, when suddenly a new guy you don't know or trust shows up. He's got no loyalty to you or to his teammates and lives for his own wallet. You can't guarantee he's not going to sell your playbook, go rogue and join another team or throw games for cash, but without him you're disqualified.

Zeta Kai
2009-06-08, 11:55 PM
Zihaja cares very much about the Kamala as a whole, & feels compelled to preserve it (preservation is kinda his thing). But he barely even perceives its inhabitants, though. Unless they do something very, very bad, they are completely beneath his attention. Which is a good thing, because every time they catch his attention, they are doing something that risks causing a catastrophic planar collapse. The closest the Kamala came to a meltdown was 400 years ago, & it took 10 years to fully heal. The repercussions are still felt today.

Juhn
2009-06-08, 11:56 PM
Ah, right, he was the other one that got smote, not the other one who never existed. Was there a the other one that never existed? I'm getting tired and I'm remembering things incorrectly.

Question: What did Waharim do, other than have an entertaining name?

Lord_Gareth
2009-06-08, 11:57 PM
So basically He's mad because, in order to fix any potential problems, He's got to turn to "mortals" (meaning anyone who's not him), and not only does He have issues even percieving on that level, He may have issues even getting the mortals to live long enough to be told what to do ("Okay, this is only the eighth group. I've turned off the divine splendour, restrained my various auras, let's let them - aww sh*t, their heads exploded. Forgot to restrain the infinite telepathy. Damnit.")

Juhn
2009-06-08, 11:58 PM
"Not to mention every time I try to tell them I'm all their various gods at once, their tiny minds snap."

afroakuma
2009-06-09, 12:01 AM
So basically He's mad because, in order to fix any potential problems, He's got to turn to "mortals" (meaning anyone who's not him), and not only does He have issues even percieving on that level, He may have issues even getting the mortals to live long enough to be told what to do ("Okay, this is only the eighth group. I've turned off the divine splendour, restrained my various auras, let's let them - aww sh*t, their heads exploded. Forgot to restrain the infinite telepathy. Damnit.")

No, he's mad because he didn't invite the demons, can't just go kill off the demons, has had his creation and his rules threatened time and time again by the demons, had to bomb a potential problem caused by the demons (Maqur) and now has to tolerate demons with actual, significant divine power who, if they every get too uppity, are going to at best make his juggling act even harder and at worst force the collapse of Kamala.

Lord_Gareth
2009-06-09, 12:02 AM
What, did the demons sneak in while he was still [verb tenses not capable of being comprehended by the human mind] the planes and then surprise him when he turned around to look, all like "BAMF mufaka, we HERE!"

How the hell did that HAPPEN?

afroakuma
2009-06-09, 12:04 AM
What, did the demons sneak in while he was still [verb tenses not capable of being comprehended by the human mind] the planes and then surprise him when he turned around to look, all like "BAMF mufaka, we HERE!"

How the hell did that HAPPEN?

We're treading dangerous waters here. I refuse to spoil the protohistory.

Suffice it to say that they were let in, and not by the resident overdeity.

Juhn
2009-06-09, 12:05 AM
Also, I take it it's not possible to enter Zihaja's notice viewed as a good thing? As that would possibly be the best thing to happen to a Paladin ever (or any other Good character, really, but especially one who's devoted his/her life to upholding Law and Good in the name of his/her diety, only to find out that the only real diety approves of all the hard work he's/she's done).

Lord_Gareth
2009-06-09, 12:06 AM
By whom, then? Ao? Some pissy overdeity with an axe to grind? Asmodeus? The Care Bears? WHY do you refuse to spoil the protohistory, anyway?

Okay, how about this then - if Zihaja made Kamala, how is it that ANYONE else can gather divine power without His personal say-so?

Waspinator
2009-06-09, 02:44 AM
A more practical question: when you're finally done with this, is it going to be a PDF, something online, or what? And how long is it going to be? I'm just wondering if we're going to be basically drowning in information once you finally release all of this.

afroakuma
2009-06-09, 06:47 AM
By whom, then? Ao? Some pissy overdeity with an axe to grind? Asmodeus? The Care Bears?

Let's go with the last one. I have so few opportunities to blame them for things.


WHY do you refuse to spoil the protohistory, anyway?

Why do refuse to spoil anything? Have to leave some mysteries to be answered in the final release.


Okay, how about this then - if Zihaja made Kamala, how is it that ANYONE else can gather divine power without His personal say-so?

It's based on the way the universe operates and actually pertains to Zihaja's long-term goals.

Athaniar
2009-06-09, 06:56 AM
*Reads epic lore posts*

You guys are awesomeness incarnate. You're almost as cool as a dirty thunderstorm.

vegetalss4
2009-06-09, 07:49 AM
afro will who Zihaja used to be disclosed when the full campaign comes out

afroakuma
2009-06-09, 08:00 AM
It should be guessable when you read the timeline. I might disclose it at a later point if nobody gets the answer.

lesser_minion
2009-06-09, 09:38 AM
It should be guessable when you read the timeline. I might disclose it at a later point if nobody gets the answer.

Hmm... I'm not all that familiar with the D&D mythos outside of the core books, so I guess I'll have to wait for someone else to figure it out.

I have to admit, I become more and more tempted to go back through the last 150 posts by the second.

afroakuma
2009-06-09, 09:40 AM
Hmm... I'm not all that familiar with the D&D mythos outside of the core books, so I guess I'll have to wait for someone else to figure it out.

It largely has nothing to do with the D&D mythos.


I have to admit, I become more and more tempted to go back through the last 150 posts by the second.

For what?

Shadow_Elf
2009-06-09, 12:10 PM
Aww, Afro, I wanted the Archmagi lore post... I was just about to go call dibs at HQ when I noticed the thread had spontaneously gotten a lot longer.

Oh well. I can always do a lore post about them before that disaster in a can. Well, in a dual-plane cosmos, which is not remotely like a can.

afroakuma
2009-06-09, 12:22 PM
Aww, Afro, I wanted the Archmagi lore post... I was just about to go call dibs at HQ when I noticed the thread had spontaneously gotten a lot longer.

Yeah, but

A) I am awesome.

B) I honestly have no idea what you would do with them. Remember last time? I know I do. :smallconfused:


Oh well. I can always do a lore post about them before that disaster in a can. Well, in a dual-plane cosmos, which is not remotely like a can.

Post it to HQ first. I am still Keeper of the Timeline. :smallamused: And my authority is absolook a bunny!

Shadow_Elf
2009-06-09, 12:46 PM
I'll probably get around to it after this week's exams are over... ah, exams, how I hate thee...
↓ Oooh Superscript! ↓
In other news, the math exam I wrote today was Easy⁹

Zeta Kai
2009-06-09, 01:02 PM
I'll probably get around to it after this week's exams are over... ah, exams, how I hate thee...

I call dibs on your attention after exams, so I can get that email your promised me. The DataBank is hungry.

lesser_minion
2009-06-09, 01:18 PM
For what?

Everything. I've missed pretty much the entire central portion of the discussion.

afroakuma
2009-06-09, 01:20 PM
Everything. I've missed pretty much the entire central portion of the discussion.

Ah; I was gonna say, if you had specific questions, I remember most of what went down.

paddyfool
2009-06-09, 01:37 PM
"preservation is kinda his thing"

"It largely has nothing to do with the D&D mythos."

[Boggle] Vishnu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vishnu)? (Joke)

Incidentally, I am most pleased to see this continues to be awesome, and look forward to reading the final draft.

afroakuma
2009-06-09, 01:44 PM
Not a bad guess, but incorrect.

Juhn
2009-06-09, 01:49 PM
I take it my assumption was correct, then?

paddyfool
2009-06-09, 02:01 PM
It would also seem to partake somewhat of Ahura Mazda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahura_Mazda) in concept... but seriously, I doubt you're going with any deity people actually believe in today.

afroakuma
2009-06-09, 02:08 PM
I take it my assumption was correct, then?

Which assumption was this? Did I miss something? :smallconfused:


It would also seem to partake somewhat of Ahura Mazda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahura_Mazda) in concept... but seriously, I doubt you're going with any deity people actually believe in today.

I can't state with certainty whether anyone currently believes in Zihaja's former incarnation here on Earth, but I'm willing to bet there are a few. I mean, people have registered their religion as Jedi at statistically notable levels in multiple nations.

Juhn
2009-06-09, 02:14 PM
This one here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6249753&postcount=101).

afroakuma
2009-06-09, 02:20 PM
Also, I take it it's not possible to enter Zihaja's notice viewed as a good thing?

Probably not, no. One of the Darshan might take notice, or even great Zaia herself, but chances are the boss won't spare you a second thought unless you become a vital and permanent part of the balance - or a threat to it.


As that would possibly be the best thing to happen to a Paladin ever (or any other Good character, really, but especially one who's devoted his/her life to upholding Law and Good in the name of his/her diety, only to find out that the only real diety approves of all the hard work he's/she's done).

What do you mean, the only real deity? Akasha and Sunya are real, even though they're only demideities. Hagalvethr and his family are real deities. Martuakh, Nathar and Zaia are real deities.

The best thing ever to happen to a paladin, and something to aspire to, would be true death. It does happen and can be granted.

Juhn
2009-06-09, 02:22 PM
The best thing ever to happen to a paladin, and something to aspire to, would be true death. It does happen and can be granted.

...That seems incredibly depressing.

And the presence of other real dieties could be kind of pushing the Monotheism vote result.

paddyfool
2009-06-09, 02:27 PM
I can't state with certainty whether anyone currently believes in Zihaja's former incarnation here on Earth, but I'm willing to bet there are a few. I mean, people have registered their religion as Jedi at statistically notable levels in multiple nations.

Point. In any event, I'll look forward to finding out.

Meanwhile, I have some speculation on who might have let the demons in, but I'd hate to spoiler it for you. Even in jest, for fear or hope of utter madness.

afroakuma
2009-06-09, 02:29 PM
...That seems incredibly depressing.

No... no, it really, really is not.


And the presence of other real dieties could be kind of pushing the Monotheism vote result.

Not at all. You all voted on Primary Religion. The primary religions are the five great monotheistic beliefs, which generally dominate their respective regions. Akasha and Sunya form a dualist religion, Hagalvethr et. al are racial gods, Martuakh and Nathar are demon cults, Zaia is a mystery cult/full religion...

In other words, it's monotheism with options.

paddyfool
2009-06-09, 02:34 PM
The best thing ever to happen to a paladin, and something to aspire to, would be true death.

Sounds vaguely buddhist.

Juhn
2009-06-09, 02:34 PM
Am I wrong in associating something called True Death with oblivion, then?

And re: monotheism, fair enough.

afroakuma
2009-06-09, 02:38 PM
Am I wrong in associating something called True Death with oblivion, then?

Very wrong indeed. Oblivion would be in fact the exact opposite concern. And it is a possible end for you, to be certain.


And re: monotheism, fair enough.

Exactly. You'll spend most of your time in monotheistic cultures. That's why the lizardfolk nations grate against each other so hard; because two of the great faiths each "own" a city there.

Juhn
2009-06-09, 02:42 PM
Ah, so it's a "your god isn't real, my god is real" thing. Of course, neither of them are real. Although, with all the description, I've got an image of your average Lizardfolk as rather serene by this point.

Still, the name True Death seems to preclude any sort of afterlife.

Athaniar
2009-06-09, 03:26 PM
So Zihaja is an old non-present major religion Earth deity, hmm? Can you give us something more, like a continent, maybe? An age?
*Prepares for a big NO*

Vadin
2009-06-09, 04:04 PM
Ahura Mazda, perhaps? The highest deity as according to Zoroaster, the uncreated creator who holds together the world?

paddyfool
2009-06-09, 04:18 PM
Ahura Mazda, perhaps? The highest deity as according to Zoroaster, the uncreated creator who holds together the world?

Woah, deja vu :smallwink:


It would also seem to partake somewhat of Ahura Mazda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahura_Mazda) in concept... but seriously, I doubt you're going with any deity people actually believe in today.

Vadin
2009-06-09, 04:21 PM
Great minds and whatnot. :smalltongue:

lesser_minion
2009-06-09, 04:31 PM
Which assumption was this? Did I miss something? :smallconfused:



I can't state with certainty whether anyone currently believes in Zihaja's former incarnation here on Earth, but I'm willing to bet there are a few. I mean, people have registered their religion as Jedi at statistically notable levels in multiple nations.

That seems like a definite confirmation of the theory that Big Z comes from a real-world 'dead' religion.

I'm still not going to be familiar with it, in other words (unless it's one of the three that I'm assuming you would avoid as they are not necessarily relevant to the theme as well as being somewhat well-known).

Or do you mean a fictional religion? Or even an actual person and not any fictional or nonfictional entity who acts as the focus of a religion (fictional or otherwise)?

paddyfool
2009-06-09, 04:34 PM
Indeed. It fits well, except for one thing:


I can't state with certainty whether anyone currently believes in Zihaja's former incarnation here on Earth, but I'm willing to bet there are a few. I mean, people have registered their religion as Jedi at statistically notable levels in multiple nations.

This quote would indicate a deity that was always intended as fiction (e.g. Mystra, although she doesn't fit at all otherwise), or possibly a deity whose worship would appear to have totally died out (e.g. Ra, ditto), whereas there are still about 150,000-200,000 Zoroastrians in the world today. So perhaps we should look for high-ranking preservative deities in fictional religions outside of D&D. Hmmm...

lesser_minion
2009-06-09, 04:38 PM
So it would be either the object of a fictional religion invented in the real world or possibly a real or fictional person who is not known to be the object of any religion (yet).

Vadin
2009-06-09, 04:44 PM
So it would be either the object of a fictional religion invented in the real world or possibly a real or fictional person who is not known to be the object of any religion (yet).

...George Lucas?

lesser_minion
2009-06-09, 04:55 PM
...George Lucas?

I was kind of assuming that either one of the dev team or someone else of significance to the hobby might be more likely candidates, although probably not the most obvious candidates in the case of the latter because I don't think that would be particularly well-received.

Shadow_Elf
2009-06-09, 04:56 PM
I was kind of assuming that either one of the dev team or someone very significant to the hobby might be more likely candidates.

We're not that ego-maniacal.

Well, to be fair, maybe afro is :smalltongue:

lesser_minion
2009-06-09, 04:59 PM
We're not that ego-maniacal.

Well, to be fair, maybe afro is :smalltongue:

Meh. It seems like it might just about make an acceptable case of author insertion.

Would you be able to narrow down which of the three alternatives might provide the most likely candidates for the Big Z? Or point out something that I've missed?

Hyozo
2009-06-09, 05:01 PM
I miss one day and two lore posts made of solid epic show up?

Alteran
2009-06-09, 05:05 PM
Meh. It seems like it might just about make an acceptable case of author insertion.

"In the first beginning, there was naught. There was no land, no demon, no god. Even Zihaja did not yet exist. All that existed was a fragment, a shroud of existence. The tiniest flower of life, with the potential to blossom into something wonderful. And from this...shadow...there did grow something great. Mighty Zihaja took form slowly, warping reality around him as he grew from this...shadow..." alsoafroakumaandzetakaiwerethere

lesser_minion
2009-06-09, 05:10 PM
alsoafroakumaandzetakaiwerethere

I can has spaces, going cheap...

Is it me or do the colour tags seem to be a little off?

Something Something Something Something Darkside

*Goes to open page in Firefox and IE...*

EDIT - OK, apparently it's an Opera issue.

EDIT 2 - Fixed. It was set to automatically change the colour to black if it didn't contrast strongly.

afroakuma
2009-06-09, 05:23 PM
We're not that ego-maniacal.

Well, to be fair, maybe afro is :smalltongue:

Man, if that weren't so very true you'd probably be dodging blades right now.

And folks, Zihaja is and always was a deity. His previous incarnation was also known as a deity, and would have been a relatively prominent name. That said, Zeta couldn't guess it before I told him. I'm not sure whether Shadow knows.

Alteran
2009-06-09, 05:36 PM
Was he known as a real god in a real-world religion, then?

How mainstream was this religion? Could you give us a rough time period of when this god would have been worshiped by many people?

paddyfool
2009-06-09, 05:41 PM
Previous incarnation... so perhaps a god who "died" in some other verse, or was banished from it. I'm still stuck, however.

Vadin
2009-06-09, 05:44 PM
So...our guess wasn't right?

afroakuma
2009-06-09, 05:46 PM
Was he known as a real god in a real-world religion, then?

He would be a god whose peers have appeared in D&D at some point but who himself has not.


How mainstream was this religion?

How mainstream is any old religion?

And guys, I really don't expect you to guess it. Zeta couldn't.

lesser_minion
2009-06-09, 06:07 PM
I know representatives from the Norse mythos and Mesopatamian mythos both turned up in D&D. And Egyptian, I think.

One of those? Or something else?

Would the big Z happen to be a head deity from his original pantheon, or an obscure and minor one? Odin or Mimir might be valid choices from the Norse mythos (as about the only Norse deities I could see giving much of a damn about balance)

I'm pretty sure this eliminates Zoroastrianism, Mithradaitism, Hinduism, and possibly the Japanese mythos and the Chinese mythos.

You said real religion, so that would mean that the Cthulhu mythos is out as well, wouldn't it?

afroakuma
2009-06-09, 06:09 PM
I know representatives from the Norse mythos and Mesopatamian mythos both turned up in D&D. And Egyptian, I think.

One of those? Or something else?

Would the big Z happen to be a head deity from his original pantheon, or an obscure and minor one?

I'm pretty sure this eliminates Zoroastrianism, Mithradaitism, Hinduism, and possibly the Japanese mythos and the Chinese mythos.

Yes. :smallamused: Stew on that.


You said real religion, so that would mean that the Cthulhu mythos is out as well, wouldn't it?

Cthulhu mythos is definitely out.

lesser_minion
2009-06-09, 06:15 PM
Which part of my post were you responding to? Or is that a sign that the Wrath of afroakuma will soon become manifest if we keep speculating?

afroakuma
2009-06-09, 06:19 PM
I know representatives from the Norse mythos and Mesopatamian mythos both turned up in D&D. And Egyptian, I think.

One of those? Or something else?

Would the big Z happen to be a head deity from his original pantheon, or an obscure and minor one? Odin or Mimir might be valid choices from the Norse mythos (as about the only Norse deities I could see giving much of a damn about balance)

I'm pretty sure this eliminates Zoroastrianism, Mithradaitism, Hinduism, and possibly the Japanese mythos and the Chinese mythos.

I'm fairly certain the cryptic "yes" meant "I'm not helping any further."

I'll give you this much: it can't be a deity who exists elsewhere, such as Odin, because we know he's a greater deity and we know where he is. Zihaja left his fellows long before the printing of any D&D book.

lesser_minion
2009-06-09, 06:32 PM
OK.

I just had the thought that Ragnarok could be an interesting event to lead to the creation of the world, which vaguely matched the event you suggested would crop up in your timeline. IIRC, there was actually a prophecy related to the whole thing leading to a new world.

Of course, the timeline event could be something like "Fall of the Roman Empire" or "Battle of Actium". Those would be somewhat major giveaways as to the pantheon at least.

I'm assuming that your comments regarding Odin mean that he was updated to D&D without my knowledge, rather than excluding him because his particular mythos actually includes a belief about how the story will end.

afroakuma
2009-06-09, 06:35 PM
I'm assuming that your comments regarding Odin mean that he was updated to D&D in a splat that I haven't read here, though.

That would be Deities and Demigods. Default source for all things godly. :smallbiggrin:

lesser_minion
2009-06-09, 06:36 PM
That would be Deities and Demigods. Default source for all things godly. :smallbiggrin:

I know you said you weren't going to help any further, but would you mind listing the gods (or mythoi) found in there?

I'm guessing that Zeus and Prometheus both get a spot.

I doubt Aten is in there though, and he sounds like he might be very vaguely appropriate. Very powerful deity of an ancient religion, and there seems to be at least something of an analogy between the way I understand the whole Zihaja thing to work and the way Aten was worshipped.

afroakuma
2009-06-09, 06:42 PM
I would, actually... it's kind of extensive and I'm developing a repetitive strain injury from typing. Someone else is welcome to, though.

lesser_minion
2009-06-09, 06:44 PM
I would, actually... it's kind of extensive and I'm developing a repetitive strain injury from typing. Someone else is welcome to, though.

OK, don't worry about it. I'll see if I can look it up. Was my guess anywhere in the right hemisphere?

Apparently, the Egyptian mythos was included, which may or may not lend support to my theory.

afroakuma
2009-06-09, 06:48 PM
I think I mentioned something about being done helping?

Thane of Fife
2009-06-09, 06:50 PM
I know representatives from the Norse mythos and Mesopatamian mythos both turned up in D&D. And Egyptian, I think.

I'm pretty sure this eliminates Zoroastrianism, Mithradaitism, Hinduism, and possibly the Japanese mythos and the Chinese mythos.

I'm fairly certain that all of those but Zoroastrianism and Mithradaitism have been described in D&D.

Check the Legends and Lore document at the bottom of Wizards' previous editions downloads page (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads).

Quetzalcouatl seems a good guess, but he's definitely been statted out. One of the old Mesopotamian supreme gods (such as Anu or El) could be a similarly good thought.

Actually, Aten could be similarly possible, as an Egyptian god brought to prominence during the reign of one pharoah.

lesser_minion
2009-06-09, 06:51 PM
I think I mentioned something about being done helping?

OK, I'll wait until the whole thing comes out and try to figure it out then.

For now, I think Aten might be the best place to put money (out of all the possibilities I can think of) though. Possibly more because of the vague parallels than anything else.

Please don't decapitate me...

afroakuma
2009-06-09, 06:54 PM
OK, I'll wait until the whole thing comes out and try to figure it out then.

At least wait until I no longer have the onset symptoms of carpal tunnel - in both hands.

I don't mind taking a few questions, but both homebrew and work require that I use a computer and I'd rather not skip off either because I've set my radial nerves aflame.

lesser_minion
2009-06-09, 07:03 PM
At least wait until I no longer have the onset symptoms of carpal tunnel - in both hands.

I don't mind taking a few questions, but both homebrew and work require that I use a computer and I'd rather not skip off either because I've set my radial nerves aflame.

Yeah... I think I'll probably go to bed and stop bothering you now.

Sorry about the repeated speculation.

LordZarth
2009-06-09, 07:41 PM
If someone correctly guessed, wouldst thou acknowledge it?

Let's see if I can rustle up D&D. You know, the D&D D&D.

afroakuma
2009-06-09, 07:43 PM
If someone correctly guessed, wouldst thou acknowledge it?

Not publicly I wouldn't.

LordZarth
2009-06-09, 08:11 PM
Hmm. You said their fellows would be in D&D? (DDG)

I really like the Aten guess; makes sense. That guy got owned. (Tutankhamen: I accidentally Aten... is this bad?)

I also notice that neither Horus nor Ptah, one important and one powerful yet often unknown are not listed.

What about a Titan? Not Kronos--too evil--Ouranos? Sky titan? That guy was awesome. I mean, until he got owned, like Aten. (Kronos: I accidentally my daddy... is this bad?) Or Hyperion? Prometheus is anudder famous one.

Could even be... well, hmm... Pan, god of awesome.

Outside of Deities & Demigods, we could be looking at Anu or Marduk, Indra, Shiva, Krishna...

afroakuma
2009-06-09, 08:21 PM
I also notice that neither Horus nor Ptah, one important and one powerful yet often unknown are not listed.

:smallconfused: Which version are you looking at? I see Ptah in the 3.0 release. Horus is Re-Horakhty. So is Ra, before you ask.


Could even be... well, hmm... Pan, god of awesome.

Pan is in DDg.

Which version are you looking at? This could be relevant. :smallconfused:

LordZarth
2009-06-09, 08:24 PM
:smallconfused: Which version are you looking at? I see Ptah in the 3.0 release. Horus is Re-Horakhty. So is Ra, before you ask.



Pan is in DDg.

Which version are you looking at? This could be relevant. :smallconfused:

All my bad.

Except Pan.

LordZarth
2009-06-09, 08:25 PM
My current main guesses are Aten and Ouranos. Aten, more likely.

afroakuma
2009-06-09, 08:28 PM
My current main guesses are Aten and Ouranos. Aten, more likely.

Again, which edition's DDg are you looking at? Wedgies on Aten. >:P

LordZarth
2009-06-09, 08:40 PM
Again, which edition's DDg are you looking at? Wedgies on Aten. >:P

3.x, of course.

And no wedgies. Zihaja protects me, noobs.

afroakuma
2009-06-09, 08:44 PM
I see. Very well, then you have enough information to solve the puzzle.

LordZarth
2009-06-09, 08:55 PM
I see. Very well, then you have enough information to solve the puzzle.

I have enough information now? Is this true, or do you mean after the release I will?

afroakuma
2009-06-09, 08:58 PM
I have enough information now? Is this true, or do you mean after the release I will?

The release will simply narrow it down to the point that anyone should have a decent stab at it.

As of right now, you hold enough information to make an informed guess.

LordZarth
2009-06-09, 09:04 PM
The release will simply narrow it down to the point that anyone should have a decent stab at it.

As of right now, you hold enough information to make an informed guess.

I suppose you won't tell me if it was one I guessed beforehand? :smallcool:

EDIT: I dunno, this all reminds me highly of Osiris, but he's in DDg...

afroakuma
2009-06-09, 09:06 PM
I suppose you won't tell me if it was one I guessed beforehand? :smallcool:

I probably would PM someone who got it right.

LordZarth
2009-06-09, 09:09 PM
I'd like to make a request for a cryptic rhyming clue.

Vadin
2009-06-09, 09:13 PM
Apollo? Atlas? Kronos? Kaos? Gaia?

afroakuma
2009-06-09, 09:22 PM
I'd like to make a request for a cryptic rhyming clue.


This task will not receive a clue
But here's a rhyming "no" to you.

LordZarth
2009-06-09, 09:34 PM
o,w8. I just realized (maybe) that Zihaja would like deserts because he came from one. Egypt.

EDIT: The pharaohs were posthumously deified, could Tutankhamen or Thutmose or someone wearing a golden funeral mask be Zihaja?


EDIT: Or Atum himself?

Alteran
2009-06-09, 09:49 PM
This task will not receive a clue
But here's a rhyming "no" to you.

Hmm, cryptic indeed.



EDIT: The pharaohs were posthumously deified, could Tutankhamen or Thutmose or someone wearing a golden funeral mask be Zihaja?


That's actually really interesting, I hadn't thought of that. Perhaps there is a connection with the "10 golden masks" of Zihaja. Perhaps it was only an inspiration, and doesn't actually pertain to his orignal form. Perhaps it's unrelated entirely. Whichever one it is, that's a good catch.

Zeta Kai
2009-06-09, 10:13 PM
No more clues. No more guesses. Cut it out, and please. Move. ON.

Zihaja's is as off-limits to you guys as He is to mortals of the Kamala. And no, you're not close.

Who wants to here about monsters? Anybody? Pick one.

LordZarth
2009-06-09, 10:16 PM
No more clues. No more guesses. Cut it out, and please. Move. ON.

Zihaja's is as off-limits to you guys as He is to mortals of the Kamala. And no, you're not close.

Who wants to here about monsters? Anybody? Pick one.

I'm an emissary to a neighbouring ruler, trying to head off conflict. When I arrive, their deliberations have already been completed. I am the younger brother of my king/caliph/pharoah/whatever. I get to the audience room, and the ruler and his vizier have a foreboding conversation with me.

The vizier pulls a lever, or the equivalent. My feet drop from under me, or the equivalent.

What horror do I see in front of me, about to make me wish I'd never been born?

afroakuma
2009-06-09, 10:17 PM
Who wants to here about monsters? Anybody? Pick one.

Typos!!!!! :smalltongue:

LordZarth
2009-06-09, 10:19 PM
O Mighty Afroakuma, may we have another teaser contest/lottery? Where the winner gains access to a Table of Contents, the like, an equivalent, or asks for a spoiler?

Liven things up.

Zeta Kai
2009-06-09, 10:36 PM
What horror do I see in front of me, about to make me wish I'd never been born?

2-5 Dire Hyenas, 10-20 Divi, a Sandstone Golem, 1-2 Vulture Harpies, 1-3 Nasnasi, 2-4 Sarsaoki, or a Tasked Genie of some sort. In any case, if you can't get out, you're unarmed, & you're less than 10th level, you're completely screwed.

LordZarth
2009-06-09, 10:41 PM
Sarsaoki or Nasnasi--tell me about zem!

Zeta Kai
2009-06-09, 11:10 PM
Sarsaoki or Nasnasi--tell me about zem!

Pick one, please.

LordZarth
2009-06-09, 11:17 PM
Pick one, please.

One sentence description of each?

Zeta Kai
2009-06-09, 11:21 PM
One sentence description of each?

I asked nicely, with a please & everything. :smallfrown:

LordZarth
2009-06-09, 11:33 PM
I asked nicely, with a please & everything. :smallfrown:

But ah can't make an informed decision, thar being no nuthin' arund.

d2:1

Sarsaoki!

paddyfool
2009-06-10, 05:01 AM
I can't quite leave the deities thing alone. Previously, I thought we'd been talking about 1st ed Deities and Demigods (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deities_and_demigods), which opens up all sorts of potential pantheons. If we're maybe talking only about the pantheons in the 3rd ed version, however... or perhaps those pantheons invited in by Ao (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Ao) to the forgotten realms universe... arg, I give up. (Although I have learnt quite a bit more about ancient Egyptian and Mesopotamian religion now). Incidentally, I've also noticed there are some weird parallels with one D&D deity, Chronepsis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronepsis#Chronepsis), but he really doesn't fit the whole "dropped pre-D&D" part of the description.

Zeta Kai
2009-06-10, 05:26 AM
1) I said drop it, & I meant it the first time.

2) Why would we refer to anything in 1E? That version is almost 30 years old. And I don't think the Big Z is in there either; it's like D&D hates Him or something.
3) I'm sometimes referred to as the Big Z...

4) A Sarsaok (SAR-say-ahk) is an ox-like Huge Magical Beast that is usually quite gentle, & their blood can actually heal the injured or the sick.

Lord_Gareth
2009-06-10, 05:32 AM
Can we get a spoiler on the process used to make Ghuls? The build team has claimed that their choice to go through this process is what makes them invariably evil, which really has my curiosity piqued....

vegetalss4
2009-06-10, 06:27 AM
No more clues. No more guesses. Cut it out, and please. Move. ON.

Zihaja's is as off-limits to you guys as He is to mortals of the Kamala. And no, you're not close.

Who wants to here about monsters? Anybody? Pick one.

oh man, why does all the interesting discussion play out and end, while i sleep:smallfrown:

afroakuma
2009-06-10, 06:48 AM
O Mighty Afroakuma, may we have another teaser contest/lottery? Where the winner gains access to a Table of Contents, the like, an equivalent, or asks for a spoiler?

Liven things up.

A) Things are already pretty live.

B) No.


I can't quite leave the deities thing alone.

Most unfortunate, because I'm not helping any further.


Can we get a spoiler on the process used to make Ghuls?

No.

vegetalss4
2009-06-10, 07:15 AM
the largest city on each of the two planes have which kind of ruling body?
who is the single most politically powerful person on siraj? namhaj?

i know i spelled the names of the planes wrong but will you please answer me anyway, oh great and mighty Afrokuma? or at least tell me if you wont answer

afroakuma
2009-06-10, 07:19 AM
the largest city on each of the two planes have which kind of ruling body?

Governmentocracy.

I don't know which city is largest on each plane yet.


who is the single most politically powerful person on siraj? namhaj?

• Ras Shasad has the most personal authority of anyone on Siraaj.

• If Sih Daroga counts, then he has the most personal authority of anyone on Najmah.

vegetalss4
2009-06-10, 09:09 AM
Governmentocracy.

I don't know which city is largest on each plane yet.

• Ras Shasad has the most personal authority of anyone on Siraaj.

• If Sih Daroga counts, then he has the most personal authority of anyone on Najmah.

uuuh i like those names.
hmmm. if Sih Daroga counts?
could there be somekind of mind control involved?

afroakuma
2009-06-10, 09:36 AM
No; I don't know whether he qualifies as a person.

LordZarth
2009-06-10, 03:56 PM
Who or what is Sih Daroga?

Alteran
2009-06-10, 04:00 PM
Taken from here (http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:RGEmtmijLTQJ:banglapedia.search.com .bd/HT/D_0037.htm+darogah&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca&client=firefox-a).


Darogah: The term seems to be of Mongol origin and very widely used by the Mughal rulers in designating a provincial governor, head of a department, head of city management, chief of police and so on. The Mongols themselves seem to have imported the word from the Far East where they found a provincial governor to be called darogah.

I'm guessing Sih is his name, and Darogah a title. What's he like? I have no idea.

afroakuma
2009-06-10, 04:17 PM
Very good, Alteran.

afroakuma
2009-06-10, 06:13 PM
I should also point out that you've already heard of Sih Daroga... maybe under a slightly different name.

Alteran
2009-06-10, 06:19 PM
It sounds a little like She-Da-Zhong (I must have spelled that wrong), but nothing else comes to mind.

afroakuma
2009-06-10, 06:21 PM
No it doesn't. "SEE dah-RO-ga"

Come on; you've seen it before...

Alteran
2009-06-10, 06:47 PM
...Sidaru?

And it does sound sort of similar, it's the SEE-dah SHEE-dah part.

afroakuma
2009-06-10, 06:53 PM
...Sidaru?

And now you know.


And it does sound sort of similar, it's the SEE-dah SHEE-dah part.

Well, the one is SEE-dah and the other one is SHAY-da

LordZarth
2009-06-10, 10:32 PM
And now you know.

But... but... SIDARU? The god?

Alive?

Unpunished?

Lorepost teaser anything?

afroakuma
2009-06-10, 10:34 PM
But... but... SIDARU? The god?

Aspect.


Alive?

Yep.


Unpunished?

Of course.


Lorepost teaser anything?

At some point, yes. Complete sentences on your next questions, please. :smallwink:

LordZarth
2009-06-10, 10:48 PM
Aspect.

How does being subsumed into the overgod while still living and in a material form WORK? And going about your business?


Of course.

Why does he still walk the Earth?


At some point, yes. Complete sentences on your next questions, please. :smallwink:

Shock does that to ya'.

Another question, maybe a deep one: what does Sidaru know of Zihaja, being alive and well and all? I mean, Johoum's locked up somewhere, so he can't tell anyone, as I'm sure he knows something about his jailor. But Sidaru? Walking around? Doing stuff?

What does he know? Answer: much?

afroakuma
2009-06-10, 10:51 PM
How does being subsumed into the overgod while still living and in a material form WORK? And going about your business?

Divine worship is what the overgod subsumes to make his Aspect. Johoum and Limalia are both still alive, as well. The former was ealed away, the latter recused herself so as not to interfere with Zihaja's monopoly on divine worship.


Why does he still walk the Earth?

The what? I've never heard of this place.


Another question, maybe a deep one: what does Sidaru know of Zihaja, being alive and well and all? I mean, Johoum's locked up somewhere, so he can't tell anyone, as I'm sure he knows something about his jailor. But Sidaru? Walking around? Doing stuff?

What does he know? Answer: much?

Sih Daroga knows about Zihaja, being one of his direct agents.

LordZarth
2009-06-10, 11:11 PM
The what? I've never heard of this place. Oops, I mean the earth.


Sih Daroga knows about Zihaja, being one of his direct agents.

So he works for Zihaja? What does he do for Zihaja? How do they communicate? Who knows that Sih Daroga knows of Zihaja? (Even if they don't know Zihaja by that name)

More importantly, do the earthly Siraaj worshipers of Sidaru know that he lives, and on Najmah?

Do the worshipers of Maqur know that she doesn't live?

Do the worshipers of (which aspect) know that he/she/it never existed?

Do the worshipers of Johoum know that their god is locked in a dungeon?

Do the worshippers of Limalia know that she is hiding, and if so why? Or what they think?

afroakuma
2009-06-10, 11:17 PM
So he works for Zihaja?

Indeed.


What does he do for Zihaja?

Manages the various outsider races of Najmah.


How do they communicate?

Usually via the Darshan, same as with any others. I can think of only one time in recent memory where Zihaja gave him a direct instruction.


Who knows that Sih Daroga knows of Zihaja? (Even if they don't know Zihaja by that name)

Only his peers. And they would know Zihaja by that name.


More importantly, do the earthly Siraaj worshipers of Sidaru know that he lives, and on Najmah?

Nope.


Do the worshipers of Maqur know that she doesn't live?


Nope.


Do the worshipers of (which aspect) know that he/she/it never existed?

Nope.


Do the worshipers of Johoum know that their god is locked in a dungeon?

Oh, it's entirely possible...


Do the worshippers of Limalia know that she is hiding, and if so why? Or what they think?

A few do, mostly those that live with her. The rest, not so much.

Juhn
2009-06-10, 11:28 PM
Wait, Johoum is a person? I'd been under the impression that he literally was the sun.

afroakuma
2009-06-10, 11:31 PM
The Johoum of dogma is the sun, yes. Sometimes anthromorphic, although it's something of a taboo.

The real Johoum is a demon lord trapped far beneath the southern wastes.

Shadow_Elf
2009-06-10, 11:32 PM
Wait, Johoum is a person? I'd been under the impression that he literally was the sun.

Its easy to confuse him with the sun. Yeah, he's that powerful. :smalltongue:

Juhn
2009-06-10, 11:33 PM
Somehow I find myself kind of disappointed knowing that he's not the sun.

And I'm not quite sure why.

afroakuma
2009-06-10, 11:34 PM
Somehow I find myself kind of disappointed knowing that he's not the sun.

And I'm not quite sure why.

I don't understand. :smallconfused:

Juhn
2009-06-10, 11:43 PM
I think it may simply be the fact that a demon literally believed to be the sun is actually underground somewhere.

Also, I think I kind of just wanted Johoum to be the sun. After all, that is what his devotees are worshipping, isn't it?

afroakuma
2009-06-10, 11:46 PM
I think it may simply be the fact that a demon literally believed to be the sun is actually underground somewhere.

If it makes you feel any better, his Aspect believes itself to be the sun.


Also, I think I kind of just wanted Johoum to be the sun.

What, like, physically? :smallconfused: Not possible. The sun came before Johoum.


After all, that is what his devotees are worshipping, isn't it?

The word "so?" comes to mind. The devotees of Umaj are worshiping something that never existed, after all.

I'm sorry if I'm sounding harsh, but I just can't understand why, knowing as you always have that all the gods are Zihaja, you are disappointed to have that reaffirmed.

Juhn
2009-06-10, 11:51 PM
Was the sun worshipped before Johoum showed up?

I just figured they'd named the big glowy ball in the sky "Johoum", much like we named it "The Sun" or "Sol".

No, I know that all the gods are Zihaja, I'm just mildly disappointed that there's also this other thing, apart from Zihaja and the big glowy ball in the sky everybody else calls Johoum, running around calling itself Johoum.

Question for you. It's apparently not the case, but now I'm curious: If people literally worshipped the sun, what would happen? Could Zihaja grant divine power through it? And if not, why not? I mean, you've got Umaj, who never existed, being used as an aspect, why not the sun?

afroakuma
2009-06-10, 11:54 PM
Was the sun worshipped before Johoum showed up?

Yep.


I just figured they'd named the big glowy ball in the sky "Johoum", much like we named it "The Sun" or "Sol".

No. It happened after the demon grew himself a power base and claimed to be the sun.


No, I know that all the gods are Zihaja, I'm just mildly disappointed that there's also this other thing, apart from Zihaja and the big glowy ball in the sky everybody else calls Johoum, running around calling itself Johoum.

That's always been the case, though. And it's not running around anymore. From a setting construction standpoint, said thing's primary function was to apply its name to the sun and forge a harsh solar Aspect for Zihaja.


Question for you. It's apparently not the case, but now I'm curious: If people literally worshipped the sun, what would happen? Could Zihaja grant divine power through it? And if not, why not?

If they worshiped it with actual faith and belief, they would probably start acquiring divine casting, yes. And it wouldn't be Zihaja supplying it. However, he could probably co-opt said worship if it got big enough to notice.

Basically, that's what happened with Umaj, after all.

Juhn
2009-06-11, 12:01 AM
If they worshiped it with actual faith and belief, they would probably start acquiring divine casting, yes. And it wouldn't be Zihaja supplying it. However, he could probably co-opt said worship if it got big enough to notice.

Basically, that's what happened with Umaj, after all.

I just figured that was the case with Johoum, and they gave it personal aspects (harsh, cruel, etc), because, well, that's what many early, polytheistic religions tended to do. They gave other traits to natural phenomenon, often anthropomorphising them. If my information is correct (which, I confess, it might not be), some of the earliest religions consisted of literal worship of the sun, so I just figured the people of Siraaj, being people living in a desert, came to literally view it as some sort of hateful god. After this, it would start granting divine power, and then it would pretty much be that situation you described up there.

Apparently that's not the case, but that's what I'd been thinking it was for the past few months now.

afroakuma
2009-06-11, 12:05 AM
I just figured that was the case with Johoum, and they gave it personal aspects (harsh, cruel, etc), because, well, that's what many early, polytheistic religions tended to do.

Yep. Of course, even in desert cultures, those traits were not normally applied to sun gods.
If my information is correct (which, I confess, it might not be), some of the earliest religions consisted of literal worship of the sun, so I just figured the people of Siraaj, being people living in a desert, came to literally view it as some sort of hateful god.

Siraaj wasn't always so much desert, as seen in the lorepost. In fact, even now there's a polar region, a high mountain range, oases, rivers, savannahs, a fairly verdant veldt around Naranj...


After this, it would start granting divine power, and then it would pretty much be that situation you described up there.

Oddly enough... no, I can't get into that yet.

The reason this did not happen in Kamala is because, unlike those early cultures (presumably), the early years of Siraaj and Najmah had gods and mythological beings that were quite real and quite tangibly present.

Juhn
2009-06-11, 12:13 AM
Yep. Of course, even in desert cultures, those traits were not normally applied to sun gods.Well, I mentioned those because those are the ones that apply to Johoum, and I was trying to explain my confusion.


Siraaj wasn't always so much desert, as seen in the lorepost. In fact, even now there's a polar region, a high mountain range, oases, rivers, savannahs, a fairly verdant veldt around Naranj...

Well, no, it's not all desert, but we did vote Desert Fantasy, so I assume we're primarily dealing with desert.


The reason this did not happen in Kamala is because, unlike those early cultures (presumably), the early years of Siraaj and Najmah had gods and mythological beings that were quite real and quite tangibly present.

Eh. Part of the reason this is bugging me now is I seem to have misinterpreted that first lorepost, and the irritating part is that it was my favourite part. I seem to have gotten which part was literal and which part was figurative backwards, and instead of "Oh hey, it's a new, unexpected twist on sun-worship that actually makes perfect sense! This is really awesome!" it's "No, apparently calling the sun a demon wasn't just the centaurs being awesome and badmouthing a raging ball of fire which is also a god, apparently Johoum is literally just a demon", and, well, this disappoints me.


Oddly enough... no, I can't get into that yet.

Infinitesimally-feasible long-term goal to try in this setting #2! Kill off Johoum, and have his worship supplanted by literal sun-worship! Preferably without the Johoum-worshippers knowing the difference, assuming they literally believe they're worshipping the actual sun.

And yes, I am aware that this is probably a VERY, VERY BAD IDEA™ and Zihaja will probably be thoroughly displeased. Which is why part 2 is actually more important than part 1

afroakuma
2009-06-11, 12:17 AM
Well, no, it's not all desert, but we did vote Desert Fantasy, so I assume we're primarily dealing with desert.

Desert, wastelands, but also Arabian terrain. You voted Arabian Nights/Desert Fantasy.


Eh. Part of the reason this is bugging me now is I seem to have misinterpreted that first lorepost, and the irritating part is that it was my favourite part. I seem to have gotten which part was literal and which part was figurative backwards, and instead of "Oh hey, it's a new, unexpected twist on sun-worship that actually makes perfect sense! This is really awesome!" it's "No, apparently calling the sun a demon wasn't just the centaurs being awesome and badmouthing a raging ball of fire which is also a god, apparently Johoum is literally just a demon", and, well, this disappoints me.

Well, they didn't know. So you had that exactly right. The centaurs were in fact badmouthing a raging ball of fire, and being awesome, and making perfect sense with their "if that's what 'demon' means, then there's one up there."

I'm surprised you don't appreciate the irony that they are actually correct. :smallamused:


Infinitesimally-feasible long-term goal to try in this setting #2! Kill off Johoum, and have his worship supplanted by literal sun-worship! Preferably without the Johoum-worshippers knowing the difference, assuming they literally believe they're worshipping the actual sun.

You people and your weirdnesses.

Further questions?

Juhn
2009-06-11, 12:20 AM
I'm surprised you don't appreciate the irony that they are actually correct. :smallamused:Yeah, there's irony, but it's less awesome than it would have been if the figurative result was true than the literal result.


You people and your weirdnesses.

You do realize that, regardless of my whitetext above, I'm probably going to try this. I'm not kidding. I just need to figure out how to manage it.

afroakuma
2009-06-11, 12:25 AM
I am sorry, but I still really don't get your disappointment. You were right, you read it correctly. The fact that it's literal in an ironic fashion spoils this for you? The fact that the centaurs have always considered the sun a "demon," regardless of whether it happened to currently be named after one?

Because yes, the centaurs do have a new and fitting twist on sun-worship. And their version is very different from actual Johoum dogma, and different from the demon who inspired the name over 1000 years ago.

In other words, I don't see how the figurative result is not true, and need this explained.


And yes, I am aware that this is probably a VERY, VERY BAD IDEA™ and Zihaja will probably be thoroughly displeased. Which is why part 2 is actually more important than part 1

Mmm... I doubt he'd be pissed. It would probably be a good final goal for a campaign, actually. Well, part 1, at least.

Juhn
2009-06-11, 12:27 AM
It's this stuff right here, mostly.


badmouthing a raging ball of fire which is also a god (technically an Aspect, but you get the idea)

This part is kind of invalidated, because the raging ball of fire in question is not a god at all, is not an aspect, and is, in fact, entirely inanimate.


"if that's what 'demon' means, then there's one up there."

But that's the thing. He's not the big ball of fiery death up there. He's some guy stuck in a hole in the ground who thinks he's the big ball of fiery death up there, but isn't.

Alteran
2009-06-11, 12:29 AM
You do realize that, regardless of my whitetext above, I'm probably going to try this. I'm not kidding. I just need to figure out how to manage it.

1. Gather a group of adventurers strong enough to destroy one of the most incredibly powerful beings in all of Kamala.

2. Break into the magical prison forged personally by the Overdeity to imprison said incredibly powerful being.

3. Successfully kill said incredibly powerful being without drawing the ire of said Overdeity.

4. Convince thousands and thousands of worshipers of Johoum to convert to literal sun worship, somehow explaining to them the subtle differences between the two religions and convincing them of the true nature of Johoum.

5. ???

6. Profit!

Juhn
2009-06-11, 12:31 AM
Is Step 4 necessary, considering as far as the Johoum-worshippers are concerned, they are, and have always been, worshipping the big ball of fiery death in the sky and don't know about the guy stuck in the hole in the ground (at least, as far as I can tell)?

afroakuma
2009-06-11, 12:31 AM
It's this stuff right here, mostly.

This part is kind of invalidated, because the raging ball of fire in question is not a god at all, is not an aspect, and is, in fact, entirely inanimate.

So? They don't know that. The priests certainly didn't. The centaurs, in fact, were treating it the same way as you expected early peoples to treat forces of nature.


But that's the thing. He's not the big ball of fiery death up there. He's some guy stuck in a hole in the ground who thinks he's the big ball of fiery death up there, but isn't.

No, the real Johoum is an uber-Demon who lied to the people to convince them that he was a sun god and got chucked in a vault. He knows better.

His corresponding Aspect views itself as being the harsh, authoritarian incarnation of the sun and acts accordingly. So really, you've lost nothing here.

Alteran
2009-06-11, 12:33 AM
If you don't actually change the worship of Johoum, then nothing is different. They wouldn't be worshiping the real sun, they'd just be worshiping a dead Johoum. Zihaja would still grant them divine power, and they'd never know the difference.

Juhn
2009-06-11, 12:37 AM
...So, you're telling me I was never wrong, then, and am running around in circles?

I'm sorry about this whole thing, it's just that it came off to me as going "You know that thing that you thought was Johoum and thought that was totally awesome and set you on the setting? Well, that's not the real Johoum. The real Johoum is an uberdemon trapped underground. So there."

Which is probably not the case, but that's what it came off like. Which is an impressive leap of logic on my part, actually.

So. The Aspect is what I assumed Johoum was this whole time, and I just need to go bump off this demon guy to make that actually the case. Got it.

Edit: Hang on a minute.


His corresponding Aspect views itself as being the harsh, authoritarian incarnation of the sun and acts accordingly. So really, you've lost nothing here.

But when you say "incarnation", do you mean "humanoid avatar of the sun", or do you mean "That thing up in the sky plus a personality and authority"?

afroakuma
2009-06-11, 12:52 AM
...So, you're telling me I was never wrong, then, and am running around in circles?

Basically, yeah.


I'm sorry about this whole thing, it's just that it came off to me as going "You know that thing that you thought was Johoum and thought that was totally awesome and set you on the setting? Well, that's not the real Johoum. The real Johoum is an uberdemon trapped underground. So there."

:smallsigh: It's not the real Johoum, any more than the ocean and the desert are the real Limalia. Each Aspect save one originated as a sentient being. Johoum, as far as being a deity, is an Aspect of Zihaja that views itself as it is portrayed in Johoumite doctrine.


So. The Aspect is what I assumed Johoum was this whole time, and I just need to go bump off this demon guy to make that actually the case. Got it.

I don't follow.


But when you say "incarnation", do you mean "humanoid avatar of the sun", or do you mean "That thing up in the sky plus a personality and authority"?

I sure as Hells don't mean this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun). This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aten), however, would not be out of the question.

And yes, when push comes to shove, all of the Aspects have a humanoid(ish) form for times when it is necessary. Doesn't mean that's what they consider themselves to look like, it's just practical for such purposes.

Juhn
2009-06-11, 01:13 AM
:smallsigh: It's not the real Johoum, any more than the ocean and the desert are the real Limalia. Each Aspect save one originated as a sentient being. Johoum, as far as being a deity, is an Aspect of Zihaja that views itself as it is portrayed in Johoumite doctrine.No, I suppose not, but years of various fiction have drilled into my head that "the original is the real thing", so I seem to have associated "Johoum is a demon trapped underground" with "that thing in the sky is not the real Johoum, and everyone who thinks it is is wrong, and being tricked". Well, beyond the automatic degree of wrong everyone is due to the they're-all-actually-Zihaja thing.


I don't follow.Aspect Johoum is worshipped and grants divine power. Aspect Johoum is what I thought Johoum was in the first place. "Real" Johoum is a demon who is stuck underground. Remove him, and the only remaining Johoum is Aspect Johoum, and they're no longer worshipping what they think is their god but is actually a demon that tricked them. Or something. I'm tired.




I sure as Hells don't mean this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun). This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aten), however, would not be out of the question.

And yes, when push comes to shove, all of the Aspects have a humanoid(ish) form for times when it is necessary. Doesn't mean that's what they consider themselves to look like, it's just practical for such purposes.If Johoum's is "that thing in the sky" I will be happy. As for it not being scientifically-accurate-sun, note that I've not referred to it as "a continuous fusion reaction taking place in space" or anything of the sort. When I say "in the sky" I literally mean in the sky. So, yeah, Aten-sun-disk, ball-of-fire-that-crosses-the-sky-every-day (horses/chariot optional, though those would probably lessen his awesome factor if he has to be pulled along), all that kind of thing is good with me, so long as he's that thing that people are looking at when they look up, or what they think they're looking at, or whatever.

I will note that it's quite possible that none of this post makes any coherent sense, as it's getting late and the more tired I get, the harder it gets to think straight, which in turn degrades my ability to get across what I am trying to say.

In any case, this is probably gonna be my last post on Johoum for the night, as this whole business is distracting me from holy-crap-my-Lizardfolk-could-meet-Sidaru.

afroakuma
2009-06-11, 01:21 AM
Aspect Johoum is worshipped and grants divine power. Aspect Johoum is what I thought Johoum was in the first place. "Real" Johoum is a demon who is stuck underground. Remove him, and the only remaining Johoum is Aspect Johoum, and they're no longer worshipping what they think is their god but is actually a demon that tricked them. Or something. I'm tired.

When Johoum got canned, they were no longer worshiping that bolded thing. That's what the Aspect process is.


If Johoum's is "that thing in the sky" I will be happy.

Suffer.


When I say "in the sky" I literally mean in the sky.

Too bad. The thing in the sky is elemental flame, set there by Zihaja.


So, yeah, Aten-sun-disk, ball-of-fire-that-crosses-the-sky-every-day (horses/chariot optional, though those would probably lessen his awesome factor if he has to be pulled along), all that kind of thing is good with me, so long as he's that thing that people are looking at when they look up, or what they think they're looking at, or whatever.

Again, no. Zihaja can't be bothered with stuff like that.

Juhn
2009-06-11, 01:24 AM
...Alright, apparently that wasn't my last post on Johoum.

So, then, just what is Aspect-Johoum's preferred form, and why would it be separate from what everybody identifies him as?

afroakuma
2009-06-11, 01:32 AM
So, then, just what is Aspect-Johoum's preferred form

A faceless, featureless ball of blazing light that scorches and oppresses all around it.


and why would it be separate from what everybody identifies him as?

Johoum is an Aspect. He's not a god. He's not part of some primal forces pantheon. Aspect-Limalia isn't the desert, Aspect-Pashati isn't the rivers. The sun came first, and belongs to Zihaja. Why on earth would he switch it when he doesn't need to?

You're looking at this the wrong way yet again. To be blunt: they do not exist. They are quasi-sentient at best. They're puppets. They're frauds. All of them, now and FOREVER.

If that disappoints you, for whatever reason, then I'm sorry to say that this is your official too bad. I've worked very hard to make this setting the best it can be for everybody, but altering the natural law set in place by the overdeity on behalf of a pseudoaware puppet identity is pointless and does not fit.

Juhn
2009-06-11, 01:39 AM
A faceless, featureless ball of blazing light that scorches and oppresses all around it.

Works for me.


Johoum is an Aspect. He's not a god. He's not part of some primal forces pantheon. Aspect-Limalia isn't the desert, Aspect-Pashati isn't the rivers. The sun came first, and belongs to Zihaja. Why on earth would he switch it when he doesn't need to?

You're looking at this the wrong way yet again. To be blunt: they do not exist. They are quasi-sentient at best. They're puppets. They're frauds. All of them, now and FOREVER.As for the bolded part, yes, I'm quite aware. If not, I'd probably be harping on the monotheism vote or something, knowing me, although you've already justified that to my satisfaction a few times now, so probably not.

As for "why would Zihaja switch it", you've got that backwards. I wasn't asking why Zihaja would switch it, I was wondering why Aspect-Johoum's favoured form would be different from the thing that Zihaja had already put there and had been there for eons.


If that disappoints you, for whatever reason, then I'm sorry to say that this is your official too bad. I've worked very hard to make this setting the best it can be for everybody, but altering the natural law set in place by the overdeity on behalf of a pseudoaware puppet identity is pointless and does not fit.

I stopped being disappointed a while ago, and switched to half-awake curiosity. Apparently this is a source of irritation by now, though, so I apologize for that.

Altering the natural law, though? You'll need to help me out, there. What exactly did you see as my requesting a change in a natural law? :smallconfused:

afroakuma
2009-06-11, 01:41 AM
I stopped being disappointed a while ago, and switched to half-awake curiosity. Apparently this is a source of irritation by now, though, so I apologize for that.

Remember where you live. Now try to remember where I live. Take whatever time it is now and add one hour and two hands burning from repetitive strain injury. I'm going to be in a slightly irritated mood no matter what, given the circumstances.

Therefore, I should drag myself to bed.

Juhn
2009-06-11, 01:45 AM
Yeah, that's probably a good idea for me, too. Again, I apologize for any irritation I may have caused, and I wish you a good night and that you wake well-rested and feeling better in general.

Also: Nova Scotia, wasn't it?

paddyfool
2009-06-11, 06:23 AM
Not sure if I'm on forbidden territory, but to what extent was Johoum responsible for the demons getting in in the first place? As a demon himself, he'd have pretty much had to start from outside - did he have an inside man?

afroakuma
2009-06-11, 08:19 AM
As for "why would Zihaja switch it", you've got that backwards. I wasn't asking why Zihaja would switch it, I was wondering why Aspect-Johoum's favoured form would be different from the thing that Zihaja had already put there and had been there for eons.

Well, as I said, it looks functionally identical. It just that it's not as if Aspect Johoum actually is the bright thing in the sky, because he doesn't actually exist.

If he made himself manifest for whatever reason, he'd basically look like a flaming ball of doom, but as an Aspect he doesn't normally hold a physical form.

That's what's been confusing me.


Altering the natural law, though? You'll need to help me out, there. What exactly did you see as my requesting a change in a natural law? :smallconfused:

Your query read as wanting the Aspect of Johoum to actually, physically be the sun.


Not sure if I'm on forbidden territory, but to what extent was Johoum responsible for the demons getting in in the first place? As a demon himself, he'd have pretty much had to start from outside - did he have an inside man?

Johoum was among the first and greatest demons to enter, but he did so with... we'll call it "inside help." He was not personally responsible for the demons' entry into Kamala, nor did he instigate it.

paddyfool
2009-06-11, 10:16 AM
Johoum was among the first and greatest demons to enter, but he did so with... we'll call it "inside help." He was not personally responsible for the demons' entry into Kamala, nor did he instigate it.

Hrm. Did seeking arcane magic lead to the demons getting in, as happened with the genies? Or was some other form of promised power the price? Was this perhaps anything to do with how the ghuls came to be as they are? If so, given that we've been told that a ghul is evil based on what they do to become a ghul, does the process involve some sort of pact with the demons?

EDIT: Oh, and btw, Afro, some of us think the Aspects system rocks.

afroakuma
2009-06-11, 10:25 AM
Hrm. Did seeking arcane magic lead to the demons getting in, as happened with the genies?

Nope. Mortals had nothing to do with it.


Or was some other form of promised power the price?

Let's call it that, yeah.


Was this perhaps anything to do with how the ghuls came to be as they are?

I don't think you can really consider the two linked via causality.


If so, given that we've been told that a ghul is evil based on what they do to become a ghul, does the process involve some sort of pact with the demons?

It explicitly does not. In fact, it could be argued that Zihaja's restrictions on the demons inadvertently led to the formation of ghuls.


EDIT: Oh, and btw, Afro, some of us think the Aspects system rocks.

Always good to hear. :smallsmile:

paddyfool
2009-06-11, 10:54 AM
Interesting...


Nope. Mortals had nothing to do with it.


Was it a genie what did it, then, or a Rakshasa perhaps?

vegetalss4
2009-06-11, 11:04 AM
Interesting...

Was it a genie what did it, then, or a Rakshasa perhaps?

or perhaps the being that Zihaja wanted to show proof of concept?

afroakuma
2009-06-11, 11:06 AM
Was it a genie what did it, then, or a Rakshasa perhaps?

Both far too weak.

paddyfool
2009-06-11, 11:09 AM
Both far too weak.

A god that the big Z had not yet subsumed? An epic-level spellcaster?