Writers in the Playground

[AetherFox]

Hello again playground!

For a while now, I've been forming an idea in my mind of a fiction novel, and have recently had the motivation to actually write it. I'm much younger then anyone who writes for a living, so I'm not looking to publish it and sell it, or anything. (Though if that happened, it would be amazing.) However, I do want to make it full length. (Around 200+ pages, I'm an ambitious fellow) This is where my problem arises. Being a concise person by nature, I usually have trouble "making the moment last" as my writing teacher says, and usually end up summarizing in a few sentences.

As I haven't actually written any part of the story yet, I'm turning to you guys before hand, asking, How can I make scenes last? What is the best way to organize my thoughts before a first draft? Generally any tips or pointers on building characters, and things I should know before going about it.

A lot of the time, I see the playground as a wealth of information and experience, so forgive me if I turn to you all whenever I can. :smalltongue:

Thanks in advance to anyone who helps me out.

[LXH]

Hello again playground!

For a while now, I've been forming an idea in my mind of a fiction novel, and have recently had the motivation to actually write it. I'm much younger then anyone who writes for a living, so I'm not looking to publish it and sell it, or anything. (Though if that happened, it would be amazing.) However, I do want to make it full length. (Around 200+ pages, I'm an ambitious fellow) This is where my problem arises. Being a concise person by nature, I usually have trouble "making the moment last" as my writing teacher says, and usually end up summarizing in a few sentences.

As I haven't actually written any part of the story yet, I'm turning to you guys before hand, asking, How can I make scenes last? What is the best way to organize my thoughts before a first draft? Generally any tips or pointers on building characters, and things I should know before going about it.

A lot of the time, I see the playground as a wealth of information and experience, so forgive me if I turn to you all whenever I can. :smalltongue:

Thanks in advance to anyone who helps me out.
Best thing to do is to write now while you have your ideas and continue to write every day. Doesn't matter if you keep going with plot or just revise chapters and paragraphs or just flesh out ideas and back stories--maybe even simple details about the lives of background characters--but while you do this you're going to be tangibly expounding on your ideas and it helps to see them on paper or monitor for proper context. Sometimes you can spot needed subtext or exposition, or even that elusive sentence or adjective you've been looking for to make something jump from writing to storytelling.

It doesn't matter what you do while writing this because you should destroy it all once you hit a rut and then start over from scratch. Keep doing that until you become confident in your sense of style and prose, then do it all over again with your new found artistic stamp on it.

[Mr. Mud]

I'm no writing Guru, or even a good author in my opinion, but I think that if the story is 200 pages, or 20 pages, as long as you tell the story that you want to tell it will be the appropriate length... I have the same literary mind as you describe... I can't describe a scene or conflict in great detail, because my mind automatically puts the scene into the shorts possible logical explanation (that is plausible, if only, in my head). Try to think of different ways to say what you mean, that still flow as well as they do your way.

Just stay true to your story, and don't set a limit or a minimum, because that only cuts back on your options as a writer :smallbiggrin:.

[Dragonrider]

Thinking about writing doesn't make it happen. :smalltongue: That's what my dad tells me whenever I get discouraged at the number of unpublished wanna-be authors out there (which include myself).

As far as getting length goes...dialogue is really, really key. I'm not one for endless descriptions, because I think they hinder the flow of the novel and get in the way of the story rather than helping it along. Red herrings are okay, too: not every single event or scene has to be 100% plot-relevant. But I can't really give specific advice in that regard because writing is different for every person. Just DO it. Don't worry about length or pacing or how well-broken up your paragraphs are: that's what edits (first, second, third, fourth, fifth, and sixth) are for.

One final note:

The first thing you write is almost always crap. It takes practice to get the hang of good dialogue, prose, and plot. So, to be honest, I wouldn't expect your first novel (and certainly not an early draft of your first novel) to have a shot at publication. However, that's no reason to not keep writing. My mom's best friend wrote six novels before one got published, but that one is the first in a trilogy and earned her a quarter-million dollar advance.

I myself am on my fifth novel (it's in the third-draft stage). I loved the others, I agonized over them, but they felt like practice compared to this. I might go back and try at the second and the fourth again, but as it stands, this is the one that I feel like actually has a chance.

It's worth the wait. :smallwink:

[PhoeKun]

It doesn't matter what you do while writing this because you should destroy it all once you hit a rut and then start over from scratch. Keep doing that until you become confident in your sense of style and prose, then do it all over again with your new found artistic stamp on it.

I really can't imagine a scenario where it's a good idea to destroy your work. You should absolutely commit to writing when you have an idea and motivation, and you shouldn't be afraid to return to the beginning and do some rewriting, but all scrapping does is take your ideas in their original context, and erase them.

Releasing drafts for critique, writing notes, and constantly improving the work is a tremendously powerful technique. Why you would sacrifice that just to make the "practice runs" burn is something utterly beyond me.

edit: further, echoing statements of "just write, don't worry about length right now". The refinement process is more important than any supposed tricks writers have. We really don't. Also, notice how it seems nearly everyone is a novelist or an aspiring novelist? Always look for people to share every phase of the work with. The more perspectives you have, the easier it is to improve, and that's the only trick there really is to writing well - to improve.

[LXH]

I really can't imagine a scenario where it's a good idea to destroy your work. You should absolutely commit to writing when you have an idea and motivation, and you shouldn't be afraid to return to the beginning and do some rewriting, but all scrapping does is take your ideas in their original context, and erase them.

Releasing drafts for critique, writing notes, and constantly improving the work is a tremendously powerful technique. Why you would sacrifice that just to make the "practice runs" burn is something utterly beyond me.
Honestly? It's because, as Dragonrider stated, the first thing you write usually is quite awful. No matter how attached to it you are, it's awful.

I advocate destroying it exactly because, as a writer, you can't allow yourself to be so enamored of your own work that you keep trying to reshape it into something that comes across as enjoyable reading. The first draft when writing off the cuff is full of ideas that occur spontaneously. Sometimes those ideas are good and sometimes they're patently ridiculous. It's best to keep a running outline of plot ideas, though, so even when you destroy that first rough draft, you still have your best ideas without all the (usually) crap surrounding them.

But to each his own. I just recommend traveling light and writing flexibly and without too much sentiment for your own creation.

[Dragonrider]

I really can't imagine a scenario where it's a good idea to destroy your work. You should absolutely commit to writing when you have an idea and motivation, and you shouldn't be afraid to return to the beginning and do some rewriting, but all scrapping does is take your ideas in their original context, and erase them.

I missed this. I agree with you, Phoe - destroying your work can sometimes rob you of the beauty of a first draft. You can always save it and start over in another document, but one of the great things about old stories is that in reading them the ways in which you've improved as a writer become strikingly obvious. I used to put endless notes about what the characters were thinking: every paragraph had a section in italics. It's nauseating now. But reading stories where I did it, I can see both the advantages of the style IN MODERATION and the reasons to avoid such extreme usage.

Edit: @^ I can also see what you're getting at. I think there's a difference between evaluating your past work and trying to reshape it. Self-honesty is necessary in the editing process (which, really, boils down to allowing oneself to accept criticism as valid).

[Trizap]

look man, I'm still a teenager, I'm still working on my first book, and I need work I know it, I'm still fleshing out the setting, what all the characters will be like, all the conflicts, what the themes will be, what psychological/philosophical/ethical/whatever issues I want to explore, everything, and while I'm a little into the ways of my novel, I'm still starting out, I work on it every day, even when I'm not writing, I still think about it in my head every single day, what ideas I want, what plots I could do, and how I could make my characters act naturally as possible, its not something you learn overnight, you want to write a novel, you need to refine and shape and sharpen over a long period of time, its a serious thing, at the risk of sounding elitist, if you do not dedicate to it fully, its not gonna be as good as it can be, writing a book is going for the long run and going for quality first, you want to write your story, dedicate yourself to it.

but don't obsess over it of course.

[Mr. Mud]

Honestly? It's because, as Dragonrider stated, the first thing you write usually is quite awful. No matter how attached to it you are, it's awful.

I advocate destroying it exactly because, as a writer, you can't allow yourself to be so enamored of your own work that you keep trying to reshape it into something that comes across as enjoyable reading. The first draft when writing off the cuff is full of ideas that occur spontaneously. Sometimes those ideas are good and sometimes they're patently ridiculous. It's best to keep a running outline of plot ideas, though, so even when you destroy that first rough draft, you still have your best ideas without all the (usually) crap surrounding them.

But to each his own. I just recommend traveling light and writing flexibly and without too much sentiment for your own creation.

I think DeeRee meant awful TO READ. Past copies and drafts are a wealth of information and insights, no matter how good of a writer (you think) you are, or how much you have written, past work is very, very relevant.

How are you to progress if you start from square one over and over again?

[LXH]

I think DeeRee meant awful TO READ. Past copies and drafts are a wealth of information and insights, no matter how good of a writer (you think) you are, or how much you have written, past work is very, very relevant.

How are you to progress if you start from square one over and over again?
It's not starting from square one. It's starting with a wealth of experience gained from the last attempt. In fact, to rephrase what I said, you don't necessarily have to destroy your first piece of work if you're not inclined to do so. The point, to me, is to stay away from it while re-writing because sentiment is a dangerous thing when you're dealing with your own work. This is my own experience, and granted I've never attempted to publish anything, but I do better when I don't constantly go back to a rough draft and try to reconstruct it. Best to start with a new canvass and a whole new palette of interesting colors and flavors you've discovered during that first run.

And there is, as I said, the notes and outlines you should be constantly updating. You get to keep your ideas without the risk of falling in love with your prose. I've always found my second runs much more fluidly written, and I credit that to avoiding the rough drafts entirely.

[Trizap]

I really can't imagine a scenario where it's a good idea to destroy your work. You should absolutely commit to writing when you have an idea and motivation, and you shouldn't be afraid to return to the beginning and do some rewriting, but all scrapping does is take your ideas in their original context, and erase them.

Releasing drafts for critique, writing notes, and constantly improving the work is a tremendously powerful technique. Why you would sacrifice that just to make the "practice runs" burn is something utterly beyond me.

edit: further, echoing statements of "just write, don't worry about length right now". The refinement process is more important than any supposed tricks writers have. We really don't. Also, notice how it seems nearly everyone is a novelist or an aspiring novelist? Always look for people to share every phase of the work with. The more perspectives you have, the easier it is to improve, and that's the only trick there really is to writing well - to improve.

I agree with all this, destroying your work is a step backwards.

also, I recommend that you become a bookworm- reading the works of our predecessors can help you do research on how you can improve, how the story flows and pretty much everything else, in fact I'd say reading a lot of books is vital in becoming a writer in of itself.

[Mr. Mud]

It's not starting from square one. It's starting with a wealth of experience gained from the last attempt. In fact, to rephrase what I said, you don't necessarily have to destroy your first piece of work if you're not inclined to do so. The point, to me, is to stay away from it while re-writing because sentiment is a dangerous thing when you're dealing with your own work. This is my own experience, and granted I've never attempted to publish anything, but I do better when I don't constantly go back to a rough draft and try to reconstruct it. Best to start with a new canvass and a whole new palette of interesting colors and flavors you've discovered during that first run.

And there is, as I said, the notes and outlines you should be constantly updating. You get to keep your ideas without the risk of falling in love with your prose. I've always found my second runs much more fluidly written, and I credit that to avoiding the rough drafts entirely.

I agree with you there, but saying "Nope, I don't like these few chapters." *flicks lighter open and proceeds to incinerate* isn't going to help one progress as an author.

Learn your mistakes, know your mistakes, master your mistakes and love your mistakes, for they are what push you forward.

[LXH]

I agree with you there, but saying "Nope, I don't like these few chapters." *flicks lighter open and proceeds to incinerate* isn't going to help one progress as an author.

Learn your mistakes, know your mistakes, master your mistakes and love your mistakes, for they are what push you forward.

And again, it's about what works for the individual. Advice was solicited and I gave mine. :smallsmile:

[Mr. Mud]

And again, it's about what works for the individual. Advice was solicited and I gave mine. :smallsmile:

True, but I don't see how forgetting about all of your previous work, and thereby quite possibly making previous mistakes, would ever help anyone to better themselves. To be clear, I'm not questioning for abilities as an author, as I haven't read any of your work, but only presenting my opinion, in a way that may or may not be detrimental to yours.

[Dragonrider]

And this, my friends, is why in the end the only way you can really learn to write is by doing it yourself.

Over and over again.

One of my favorite authors, John Green, was once asked how long he waited after he finished a novel before he started the next. He replied, "I pretty much start it the next day, because I'm afraid that if I ever stop writing, I won't be able to start again."

:smallbiggrin:

That's not to say that you should start draft one of novel two immediately after the first draft of novel one; likewise, no story is ever really "finished", because there is always SOMETHING that needs fixing. But that's pretty much how I go through life: write SOMETHING every day. Even if it's bad, I can always change it, because it's not set in stone.

[InaVegt]

I'm a semi-professiona poet and short story author. While I'd love to have a novel published one day, I'm much better at finishing short stories and poems than novels.

Anyway, write, show it to people, ask for honest critique and advise. Revise, learn your flaws and your strong points, and use this knowledge.

[Trizap]

And again, it's about what works for the individual. Advice was solicited and I gave mine. :smallsmile:

like how I started with the most wide open setting I could possibly come up with, then started to fill it with every single idea I have into it, so that its so detailed and varied, that I can literally drop my characters into any situation I want, and that internal consistency is so loose and flexible that I can make almost anything happen and get away with it

awesome :smallcool:

[LXH]

I agree with all this, destroying your work is a step backwards.

also, I recommend that you become a bookworm- reading the works of our predecessors can help you do research on how you can improve, how the story flows and pretty much everything else, in fact I'd say reading a lot of books is vital in becoming a writer in of itself.
Personal experience coming into play again, but I can't disagree with this more vehemently,* especially if writing fantasy, but I'm sure it comes into play for other genres.

I've had two separate instances of discovering after-the-fact that I ripped off entire paragraphs of ideas from authors I had read a decade prior. I'm still struggling to shake that corruption. I always doubt myself and wonder whether these ideas really are my own.

I don't know if fantasy is what the OP is going to write, but if it is, I recommend highly to learn the classics and avoid contemporaries like the plague. And don't just read Mallory and Chaucer. Read Ferdowsi and the Greeks and Kheraskov and the east and southern Asian mythologies. Then try to write something unique.

*Depending on whether you're referring to recent predecessors.

[Xondoure]

what helps me when I need to practice elongating things, is to give each and every detail of something very mundane and make it amazing.
For example imagine spreading cream cheese on a bagel and eating it. Now write that out in at least six sentences with at least ten words that have more than six letters. Now make it interesting. Make the reader really want to eat that bagel.
These exercises can be quite fun, and will help you get a flow for descriptions while not needing to experiment on the actual story itself until you feel ready. Always remember though, that your writing should be in a way that pleases you, and everyone else's opinion is secondary, especially for your first book.

[LXH]

I really want a bagel now.

[Dragonrider]

I agree with you on that, LXH [edit: not bagel, reading :smallbiggrin:]. I start to see the influences of my favorite authors in my writing and have to back off them, even when I'm going for a style similar to something of theirs. ESPECIALLY then, because that's when it's most likely to happen.

If you're going to write fantasy, Gentoo, I'd recommend reading historical fiction or just plain history. Insofar as creating a world, nothing is better than drawing on things that really HAVE happened - when you do that, it changes from derivative to believable.

Also travel. Whenever I go to a foreign country I pay attention to language and customs and topography that I know can shape my fantasy worlds.


...and that's about where my expertise ends. Because I am NOT a professional writer. I am a wannabe like anyone else. :smallwink:

[PhoeKun]

Personal experience coming into play again, but I can't disagree with this more vehemently,* especially if writing fantasy, but I'm sure it comes into play for other genres.

I've had two separate instances of discovering after-the-fact that I ripped off entire paragraphs of ideas from authors I had read a decade prior. I'm still struggling to shake that corruption. I always doubt myself and wonder whether these ideas really are my own.

I don't know if fantasy is what the OP is going to write, but if it is, I recommend highly to learn the classics and avoid contemporaries like the plague. And don't just read Mallory and Chaucer. Read Ferdowsi and the Greeks and Kheraskov and the east and southern Asian mythologies. Then try to write something unique.

*Depending on whether you're referring to recent predecessors.

I'm sorry to keep pouncing on you (I am a literary tiger, Rawr! ...Does that make me a paper tiger? *rimshot*), but I feel the need to disagree again. There is, as they say, "nothing new under the sun". You are striking at a valid point, that it is important to avoid simply rehashing other people's ideas, but the truth of the matter is everything you write is influenced by a heck of a lot more than you can even keep track of. And if there are good, contemporary authors for you to be influenced by, then it is a good thing to draw on their influence. Always keep reading, and more than that keep thinking about what you've read. Devour it from every angle.

The legitimate classics, too, yes. Homer is your friend. So is Sir Thomas Mallory. And Chretien de Trois. I could go on, but this is your point, too, so I think we're on the same page here. Point is, read. Lots. Then write even more.


I really want a bagel now.

Me too.



...and that's about where my expertise ends. Because I am NOT a professional writer. I am a wannabe like anyone else. :smallwink:

First of all, don't sell yourself short. You have valuable experience that you are sharing, and it is not invalidated by you not making money from it.

Second of all, speak for yourself. :smalltongue: I work by commission. ^_^

[Dragonrider]

I really want a bagel now.

The bagel was perfect, golden brown, lightly steaming as I lifted it from the toaster. The silver foil cream cheese package crinkled as I pulled it open and inserted the knife, peeling long slices of soft, cold cheese from the wrapping. The knife scraped the crisp surface of the bagel as I caressed it with cream cheese, taking another load from the packaging to allow the cheese to reach satisfactory thickness. It was already melting into the soft crevices of the bagel as I took one luscious bite, savoring it as my teeth met the cold outer surface, thence to the crisp, sweet mingling of bagel and cheese, finally to the warm, soft insides. I chewed for a moment, rolling the cheese around in my mouth, allowing it to coat every surface of the bready bagel before I swallowed. My second mouthful was more frantic than the last and I devoured the rest in four swift bites, licking my fingers as I reached the finale; never had anything tasted so delicious, and I knew it never would again, so I might as well kill myself now.

Something I should never have done: share unedited work. But SOMEONE had to do it....:smallwink:


Edit: upon rereading, I think I crossed some invisible line between "pleasurable" and "disgusting". :smalltongue:

[LXH]

I'm sorry to keep pouncing on you (I am a literary tiger, Rawr! ...Does that make me a paper tiger? *rimshot*), but I feel the need to disagree again. There is, as they say, "nothing new under the sun". You are striking at a valid point, that it is important to avoid simply rehashing other people's ideas, but the truth of the matter is everything you write is influenced by a heck of a lot more than you can even keep track of. And if there are good, contemporary authors for you to be influenced by, then it is a good thing to draw on their influence. Always keep reading, and more than that keep thinking about what you've read. Devour it from every angle.

The legitimate classics, too, yes. Homer is your friend. So is Sir Thomas Mallory. And Chretien de Trois. I could go on, but this is your point, too, so I think we're on the same page here. Point is, read. Lots. Then write even more.



Me too.
The reason I say avoid the contemporaries is you can learn the archetypes by studying the classics without seeing the ways in which they're interpreted and subverted in the modern day. As you said, there are only so many ways to tell so many stories, and for me it's been better to stay away from seeing how others tell theirs. In a way, it leaves a would-be author without the boundaries and rules that are unconsciously implanted when reading genre fiction.

And as always, of course, it's all about the writer. And I don't think you're pouncing. You're saying "this works for me" and I'm saying "that works for me." OP is getting a fuller spectrum of options this way. :smalltongue:

[Pyrian]

I must confess I find all this talk of elongation kind of bizarre. I'm always trying to figure out how to make my stories more concise. My favorite authors can convey more in a single page than many manage in a whole chapter. (Check out, for example, how much conflict and nuance about Menolly's family is conveyed in the first page of Dragonsong.)

My guesses would be either not having enough to say for the format you're aiming for, or expositing when you should be describing.

[Xondoure]

Some people have problems lengthening their work, others have trouble cutting it. It really depends on the author.

[Bor the Barbarian Monk]

Okay...I want to reply properly, but I am being hit by a sudden wave of exhaustion. What I want to do is tell you all about "The Magic of Five Drafts." And while I'm becoming too tired to form a reasonable response, the first draft involves getting the story out of your head. So stop reading this and go write! Now! :smallsmile:

[potatocubed]

First draft tip: plan a bit, but don't plan too much.
What I find is that if I plan everything in advance, I have no real interest in writing the story - I've already told the story, in a certain form, and expanding my description into something bigger holds no interest.

Length tip: write in the style that comes naturally to you.
If your style is brief, then you're going to need a lot of content to make up for it. If your style is wordy, then less. That's just the way of things. Don't try to pad, since readers (and editors) can spot that sort of thing a mile off.

General tip: hone your style.
If your style is brief, you might need to learn to make it more lyrical. If your style is wordy, you might need to learn some brevity. There's really no hard and fast rules here, since style is a very subjective thing - you just have to learn what works and what doesn't.

Style-honing tip: read lots, write lots.
Read everything you can get your hands on. Contemporary, classic, fantasy, scifi, 'proper literature' (:smallyuk:), whatever. Leave your library with a sack of books every weekend. You don't have to critically analyse everything you read, you just need to expose yourself to a variety of styles so you have a better idea of where yours might fit in and what you might need to change.

On the other hand, write. Every day. Keep an eye on what's working and what isn't. Writing is a lot like having a toolbox - reading (and, to an extent, literature study) gives you tools to work with, but you still have to learn what each one does and how to use them.

As an aside, try imitating certain authorial styles or genres. That's often a good way to understand how each author creates the effect that they do - whether that effect is good or bad. Write like Terry Pratchett, Neil Gaiman, Tom Clancy, Dan Brown, Generic Mills and Boon Writer #4, and so on.

[banjo1985]

On the issue of description and book length: keep the description as long as it needs to be. If you drop a piece of verbose description in to a fast paced action or fight scene, it's really going to mess things up and break the pace of your scene up. But if something is important and needs describing, then by all means lavish as much attention on it as you need to.

Other general tips others have already said: read lots, write as much as possible. don't get peturbed when you read something back and find it to be some kind of grotesque monster that you're afraid to let out the attic.

[Quincunx]

As a fellow keep-the-cork-in writer, I have to say what helped most was a vox populi reader--not necessarily an editor, but someone who was willing to speak up and say "what in the world were you referring to?" when there was some element of the story the text failed to imply. Ask for a reader to look for one element and you're much more likely to get a commitment. Between adding in what you thought you implied, but didn't, and clarifying what you did imply but not precisely, your word count will rise.

I absolutely back LXH's stance in approaching writing. Some writing is meant to be burned (some writing is written explicitly to be purged!) and reading from outside your target genre will cross-pollinate your writing and keep it fresh.

(sigh) Curse it all, I want to say, "I was writing when authorship was still underground". There's so many more voces in the populorum than I suspected pre-Internet.

[valadil]

Being a concise person by nature, I usually have trouble "making the moment last" as my writing teacher says, and usually end up summarizing in a few sentences.

I have that problem too. I tried NaNoWriMo a couple years ago and failed miserably because I always cut to the point. But I did learn something on the way.

I was always afraid of planning too far ahead. I liked the idea of discovering the story as I went. If I knew what was going to happen, I thought I'd get bored. So I never planned more than a chapter in advance and kept surprising myself as I thought of new plot.

That's the part of NaNo that failed miserably. At some point I discovered that I didn't like my story and so I stopped doing it. I didn't wanna give up on NaNo entirely that early in the month, so I had my own little NaNo week, in which I wrote about 12000 words. I figure it was roughly a 4th of the NaNo experience.

What worked better the second time around is that I did plan plot ahead of time. I had a pretty decent outline showing me where the story would go. When I wrote around that outline, in order to entertain myself I started filling in all those little details that had previously gone neglected. I knew that A met B in the chapter, so that didn't excite me anymore and I wouldn't rush to it. It seemed backwards to me, but by doing plot ahead of time and sticking to that plot, I was freeing myself to do a little more exploration elsewhere.

[Bor the Barbarian Monk]

Okay...Now that I'm infinitely more coherent, I can now lay down "the Magic of the Five Drafts." Pay attention, children, as there may be a test later. :smalltongue:

Draft #1: Write. Just write. Get whatever is in your head out. It doesn't matter what kind of mistakes you put down. They will be taken care of later. Your only goal is to get the story written.

When you type "The End," draft #1 is complete.

Draft #2: Okay, this one is hard for me to pull off, as my printer has died. Print your story, grab a red pen, and get away from the computer. Then edit, edit, edit! If you're like me, some pages escape with only a small correction, while others look like the paper has started bleeding. Read as carefully as you can, and be ready to leap back and forth between pages. Don't be surprised when you're notes end up requiring you to flip the pages and write entire new sections by hand.

For example, while scribbling my tale, Spirits, a detective and a forensics technician are listening to a tape. During their dialogue, they mention the two guys hearing incriminating evidence, but the tapes are missing an entire side of the conversation, making it sound like one of the main characters has simply flipped his lid. All of this was very good, except that there'd been no scene prior to this to show where the tape came from. The detective and tech were talking about something that simply hadn't happened. During the print-edit phase, I had to go back through the script, find a good spot for it, and write in a one-minute scene of two miscellaneous cops recording the tape.

The reasomn I say you should get away from the computer is to avoid leaping all over that rough draft and move entire sections of the story. It can make you crazy when, what was once on page 103, is suddenly found on page 121. It's too easy to lose track of what's where.

Print it, edit it by hand, and then - this will sound strange - EDIT BACKWARDS! Sit down with your corrected manuscript and start with the last page. This is for the same reason as listed above. If you start on page one, later pages tend to move forward. In short order, you find yourself staring down at page 67 beside you, but it's page 70 on the computer. Start with the last page, and you'll find page 67 remains page 67. :smallsmile:

Draft #2 is now complete.

Draft #3: With all of the giant blunders out of the way, you should be safe to edit at your computer. Read your story again, doing your best to keep a critical eye on what you've written.

This may also be the part where you find yourself busting out the dictionary and synonymicon. (I could have said "thesaurus," but why confuse a book with a dinosaur that knew more words than all the other dinosaurs. :smalltongue: ) The latter is a great way to help in what the OP sees as a problem. A character need not "sleep" when they can visit "the Land of Nod." Why have someone merely "die" when they can "shuffle loose this mortal coil"? Yes, your character can " reluctantly go to a party" if you wish, or they can "engaged in the festivities celebrating a friend's great accomplishment, all the while fuming with envy."

When you reach those fateful word, "The End," draft #3 is complete.

Draft #4: Have someone you trust read the story. Don't select someone who will give you little more than a rave review. Find someone who will give constructive criticism. That is, they do more than point to what's wrong; they also make suggestions on how to fix what's broken.

This is best done, once again, with a printed copy, so that they might take a red pen to your mistakes and make notes. Keep in mind that what they deem a mistake may well be what you intended. That judgment is up to you. Once you're done making those correction you feel were necessary, draft #4 is complete.

Draft #5: It doesn't get any simpler than this part of the editing process. You've written your tale, read it twice, had a second set of eyes go over it...Now all you need is the most unbiased editor of all: your computer. Set your spelling and grammar check to pick up EVERYTHING. Place your cursor at the start, and let it do its thing.

There are some issues with this, as a computer doesn't understand creative writing. The sentence fragment you wrote is there for a reason. When writing a fantasy, a computer will tell you that you've spelled a name wrong. People don't speak correctly at all times, and often end a sentence with a preposition. It's up to you to decide what's what.

HOWEVER, don't be so quick to tell the computer to "ignore all." Yes, command the computer that the fantasy name you've given is spelled correctly, and to ignore it after it picks up the first "mistake." But you may find you've written too many fragments, abused a comma here and there, or even placed a period where you meant to put a question mark. It may be tiresome, but think carefully about each goof the computer brings to your attention.

When you reach "The End," YOU...ARE...DONE! :smallbiggrin:

**********************

Now, all of this is fairly basic, and will help you to craft a well-written tale for the most part. Your story, however, may be so complex that you need employ other tools along the way.

For example, you may want to write character profiles to remind yourself of who you're writing about. Where has the character been? What has the character experienced? What are the character's dreams for the future? Does he/she have a bad habit? Is there a character trait that's stronger than all others? A profile of a character can sometimes help you write your tale, because you will find your imagination delving into that person's fictional psyche and, in a way, THEY will write the story.

Complex tales may also require a flow chart. Let's say you're writing a fantasy/mystery. (Harry Potter, anyone?) Two parties are after the same goal, and each group learns different facts in different orders. As they learn these facts, they react differently, and take alternate actions. Each action then impacts what the other party may find or do. Rather than try to juggle all of the information in your head, make a flow chart with plenty of notes to help you get the story right.

Final tip...There is a book that's published annually, The Writers Market. It can be found in your local library, usually in the reference section. It is loaded with information for writers, including who's looking for what. Thinking about publishing? If you have no connections in the industry, this is where you start. :smallsmile:

That's all I got. I ain't got no more. Hope that helps...someone. :smallsmile:

[Collin152]

I write. I love to write!
But I never finish anything.
There are numerous reasons for this.

First, I get a lot of ideas. Way too many ideas to keep in my head, so I start various writing projects so that my ideas will have a semi-permanent form so I can go back to them later, only to never be gone back upon as more and more ideas take me. A problem, I know.

Secondly, I am much too aware of the fact that the first thing someone writes is absolute drivel and rubbish. And I love my ideas far too much to let that happen, so I move away from some ideas to let others take the punishment of being first, causing me to become attatched to that one, and so forth...

But the kicker is? It's all subconcious.

[Dragonrider]

When you reach "The End," YOU...ARE...DONE! :smallbiggrin:

Here is where I must beg to differ...it's never, ever, EVER done. :smallwink: :smallbiggrin:

Also, I do at least three-four revisions before I get to the letting-someone-else-read-it step. But that's just me.

[Bor the Barbarian Monk]

Here is where I must beg to differ...it's never, ever, EVER done. :smallwink: :smallbiggrin:

Also, I do at least three-four revisions before I get to the letting-someone-else-read-it step. But that's just me.
Well, it's the end of the five drafts. In all honesty, the process of writing a story is NEVER over, as a writer will always find just one more thing to do with the story. You want to tweek the dialogue a little more, or improve the description of something important. One of my "children," The Summer of Magic, will probably never be finished, because there is always a half dozen things I'm never completely happy with.

The thing it, you have to put an end to the writing at some point. There's only so manytimes you can read yor own story before you want to tear your hair out.

The five drafts...? Well, it's proven excellent when writing a screenplay, because overwriting a screenplay usually results in it never seeing the light of day, not even when soliciting agents. :smallfrown:

[KataraAltinaII]

that's my issue... the "THE END" is never real...
I grow far too attached to my characters to just let them go like that. I always have to do something more with them.

a lot of my writing focuses on character development. I'm particularly good at making very deep, awesome characters.

these though, tend to be female. my male characters are about average.

[Doran_Liadon]

To stay on task i suggest you read what you've written to yourself every once in a while, keeps you inspired.

As for making scenes last, describe things. Peoples thoughts, feelings, surroundings, how they relate to the scene. Take your time to note things in your summary for your reader might forget.

To gather ideas write down everything in a small notebook and build on it. Even if it seems silly you might always want it later. Write several different drafts of things and have people read it and give you their opinions.

To build characters make them a person. Give every detail you notice about people in your daily life and maybe base them on people you know. Imagine your having a conversation with your character and write down how you'd think they'd respond.

The rest of it comes from the writer so good luck and let us know how it turns out!

[Dragonrider]

The thing it, you have to put an end to the writing at some point. There's only so manytimes you can read yor own story before you want to tear your hair out.

Indeed. I was being, in part, facetious. :smallwink:

[mercurymaline]

To stay on task i suggest you read what you've written to yourself every once in a while, keeps you inspired.

As for making scenes last, describe things. Peoples thoughts, feelings, surroundings, how they relate to the scene. Take your time to note things in your summary for your reader might forget.

To gather ideas write down everything in a small notebook and build on it. Even if it seems silly you might always want it later. Write several different drafts of things and have people read it and give you their opinions.

To build characters make them a person. Give every detail you notice about people in your daily life and maybe base them on people you know. Imagine your having a conversation with your character and write down how you'd think they'd respond.

The rest of it comes from the writer so good luck and let us know how it turns out!

To add to this a bit: don't forget that you're not just writing what's seen and heard. That's what makes books superior to movies. Things have a smell, a taste, and most of all, a feeling. Describe how a place or person looks, but also the way it makes the characters feel. This brings the reader in deeper, and adds non-gratuitous length.

[AetherFox]

Wow, thanks you guys. This is helping me more than I think you know. I've had a lot of good ideas over the past few days, amy your ideas have helped me organize them, and how I'm going to go around writing my first draft, so please, keep them coming.

As for the 'reading whatever you can find' part, I've pretty much got that down. I'm a book worm if there ever was one.

I've had great ideas for a prologue intro, and I might post it here if it ends up coming out as well as I hope it will, so stay tuned.

Also, interesting fact: did you know 'facetious' is one of the few English words with every vowel appearing in alphabetical order?

[Xondoure]

Just a suggestion, but you might want to rename this thread "Calling All Writers in the Playground". That way no one will think "Hey, this looks like a thread where everyone talks about themselves and what they do for way to long."

[Dragonrider]

That way no one will think "Hey, this looks like a thread where everyone talks about themselves and what they do for way to long."

Is this pointed or am I imagining things? :smalltongue:

[mercurymaline]

Is this pointed or am I imagining things? :smalltongue:

I think he's just saying that's what he originally thought. Though, talking about your own writing and how you do things wouldn't necessarily be bad, would probably give Gento some ideas at least.

[Xondoure]

Is this pointed or am I imagining things? :smalltongue:

Not at all, mercurymaline has it right. Granted, a thread in which people talked about themselves as writers, help each other become better writers, discuss their careers in the field, and post links to their work would be kinda fun... but I don't think that was what Gentoo44 intended for this thread. Of course I could be completely wrong...

[mercurymaline]

Not at all, mercurymaline has it right. Granted, a thread in which people talked about themselves as writers, help each other become better writers, discuss their careers in the field, and post links to their work would be kinda fun... but I don't think that was what Gentoo44 intended for this thread. Of course I could be completely wrong...

I think Gento was just looking for a bit of advice. Considering every human being on the planet writes differently, he's got quite a bit to sort through. I think there's a Creative Writing Thread in Arts & Crafts, but it's not quite writing advice or anything like that. Still would be helpful though.

[PhoeKun]

This may also be the part where you find yourself busting out the dictionary and synonymicon. (I could have said "thesaurus," but why confuse a book with a dinosaur that knew more words than all the other dinosaurs. :smalltongue: ) The latter is a great way to help in what the OP sees as a problem. A character need not "sleep" when they can visit "the Land of Nod." Why have someone merely "die" when they can "shuffle loose this mortal coil"? Yes, your character can " reluctantly go to a party" if you wish, or they can "engaged in the festivities celebrating a friend's great accomplishment, all the while fuming with envy."

Hello again, thread. I'm here to toss in a few more dissenting opinions and corollaries. Writing is such an incredibly diverse and complicated thing, and there are so many ways of writing (and writing well, I might add) that we're really hurting any advice thread if we don't take at least 5 different looks at most every piece of advice. So, *ahem*

The thesaurus can be your friend, but it can just as easily be your biggest enemy. There's an extremely important thing to remember, and it's that people are very acutely aware of when you begin to use more complicated phrasing for the sake of using more complicated phrasing. I edited many a college paper in my day, and time and time again I found people who had clearly sat down with a book of words beyond their scope to try and impress their professors. And the overall effect was that they butchered the good parts that the had in the first place.

So be extremely careful. Especially as your just starting out, stay in your element. It's ok (even good) to break out of your comfort zone, but don't use language you can't control. A golden rule of writing is that if you're not sure about something, keep it simple. To take one of the above examples and bash it over the head with a club, there are phenomenally few cases where one should "visit the Land of Nod" when they could just sleep instead. Or even "pass out", "drift off", or "slumber" if you absolutely must. At best it sounds whimsically out of place, at worst: pretentious. There's always a risk you'll overuse a word and make it stand out when it's not supposed to, but proceed with caution before replacing it with any of its more exotic cousins.

Follow up: never worry about using the phrase, "said ". It's a known fact that people will skip completely over "said" when reading - the more "enumerated", "pontificated", "exclaimed", "shouted", "rambled" and so ons that you add, the more time the reader has to take to parse what used to be automatic, breaking up the flow of the conversation. You may get bored using "said" over and over again as a writer, but the reader will find a better story if you tough it out.



Draft #4: Have someone you trust read the story. Don't select someone who will give you little more than a rave review. Find someone who will give [I]constructive criticism. That is, they do more than point to what's wrong; they also make suggestions on how to fix what's broken.


Wonderful advice. Finding a trustworthy confidant to look at your work with new eyes is more valuable than I or anyone else will every have the words to express. But I think (and this goes to Dragonrider's comment, as well) you might be doing yourself a disservice to wait as long as the 4th (or 5th) draft before letting another person lay eyes on it. There's a strong argument that can be made against handing your editor your 1st draft, because a lot of their advice might get caught up in all of the raw elements of the story that you were likely as not going to find and clean up on your own. But beyond that, show it! Show it early, show it often. Check back for new perspectives from as many people as you can find that are willing and able to take a look at it. It's a lot to ask, but the sooner in the process you get other minds involved, the more room the work has to grow. I know it can be hard, and the practical reality of it may well be you're only going to be able to get one dedicated go-through from someone else, but if that's the case it's even more important to get that person involved before you're able to think that the story is starting to crystallize. It will almost never hurt you to involve someone at an earlier stage than you might like. Don't be afraid to.

[Dragonrider]

Follow up: never worry about using the phrase, "said [insert character name here]". It's a known fact that people will skip completely over "said" when reading - the more "enumerated", "pontificated", "exclaimed", "shouted", "rambled" and so ons that you add, the more time the reader has to take to parse what used to be automatic, breaking up the flow of the conversation. You may get bored using "said" over and over again as a writer, but the reader will find a better story if you tough it out.

I don't have a huge amount of patience for writing advice books, because there are SO many out there and many contradict one another, but I did read Stephen King's On Writing and this was one of two things I really got out of it (the other? cut back on -ly adverbs, they're annoying). It makes the story vastly more readable to not have "creative" dialogue tags.




Wonderful advice. Finding a trustworthy confidant to look at your work with new eyes is more valuable than I or anyone else will every have the words to express. But I think (and this goes to Dragonrider's comment, as well) you might be doing yourself a disservice to wait as long as the 4th (or 5th) draft before letting another person lay eyes on it. There's a strong argument that can be made against handing your editor your 1st draft, because a lot of their advice might get caught up in all of the raw elements of the story that you were likely as not going to find and clean up on your own. But beyond that, show it! Show it early, show it often. Check back for new perspectives from as many people as you can find that are willing and able to take a look at it. It's a lot to ask, but the sooner in the process you get other minds involved, the more room the work has to grow. I know it can be hard, and the practical reality of it may well be you're only going to be able to get one dedicated go-through from someone else, but if that's the case it's even more important to get that person involved before you're able to think that the story is starting to crystallize. It will almost never hurt you to involve someone at an earlier stage than you might like. Don't be afraid to.

You may have a point there. It's worth mentioning, however, that usually it takes two drafts for me to get the story properly in place - draft two is often (even if not always) 20,000 words longer than draft one. It's not language expansion that does that...it's story expansion. Usually my first draft is very rough, just the bare bones of an idea. So two is then filling out the plot, and three is catching all the little oddities.

But the real reason I wait so long is because I'm insecure. :smalltongue:

[LXH]

(the other? cut back on -ly adverbs, they're annoying). It makes the story vastly more readable to not have "creative" dialogue tags.



You did this 4tehlulz, am i rite? :smalltongue:

[Dragonrider]

You did this 4tehlulz, am i rite? :smalltongue:

Say what? :smalltongue:


Edit: Oh, I see what you're talking about. :smallbiggrin: Ha ha ha. I wish I'd done it on purpose now.

[Quincunx]

While it may be doing the writer a disservice to hold back on consulting the editor until draft four or five, an editor who is burnt out by reading many drafts two and three, and attending to the problems inherent in those, is of no use either. I use "reader" for those people who are willing to cast an eye over almost everything but will be supportive first and critical afterward, reserving "editor" for the people who prioritize the work over the writer (and the writer's feelings). Be more sure of the type of feedback you want and be bold enough to ask for the type of reviewer appropriate to the draft you're presenting.


At my home site, a writers' site, the "reader" would be the sort of person to give feedback on levels one through three, and the "editor" for levels four and five where negative feedback is possible. Since it has been a shelter for fragile souls in the past, the feedback hovers around level three--supportive first, critical afterward.


Does it strike anyone else as odd that this is nearly a non-competitive industry--there are not a limited number of posts available for Popular Authors per year and thus we can afford to share tips and tricks--or is it a side-effect of only being amateurs?

[LXH]

(the other? cut back on -ly adverbs, they're annoying). It makes the story vastly more readable to not have "creative" dialogue tags.
I just thought that was funny placement of an -ly adverb, given the context.

[mercurymaline]

Follow up: never worry about using the phrase, "said [insert character name here]". It's a known fact that people will skip completely over "said" when reading - the more "enumerated", "pontificated", "exclaimed", "shouted", "rambled" and so ons that you add, the more time the reader has to take to parse what used to be automatic, breaking up the flow of the conversation. You may get bored using "said" over and over again as a writer, but the reader will find a better story if you tough it out.


There's actually a term for that. Can't remember it off the top of my head.

Anyway, I never use that sort of phrasing, whether it be 'he said' or 'he exclaimed' or anything like that. Just 'Actions.' "Dialogue." Such that you can tell who's speaking and how. I find it...cleaner.
(I'd give an example, but I'm on my work comp and don't have anything readily available.)