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Josh the Aspie
2009-06-08, 08:44 PM
Well, I tried 4th ed again, at the local game day. I had headed off with the high hopes of being able to play Heroes of Rokugan II for the first time in approximately 2 months... and it wound up being nearly a ghost town due to unrelated events. The group was barely able to make 3 tables of D&D, and in order to make the 3rd, they either needed to roust a player off of the table he wanted to play at, or find a 4th person for the gaming table. I was asked if I was willing to play so that table would make, and I said 'sure'.

I was not amused.

Disclaimer:
An RPGA game day is not a home game, never have been a home game, and never will be a home game. I understand this. This is also set in the Forgotten Realms... with... Dragonborn as one of the most common races... somehow...

Also, we had one of the youngest and least experienced DMs at the table, one who has little to no roleplaying ability. I'll call him Bill.

Also at the table is one of the group's best known power gamers. Highest level at the table, Swordsage, I'll call him Ted.

We also have a fellow at the table who didn't really care what table he sat at, so long as he got to play, and so asked them to put him wherever worked out best. Wizard. I'll call him Sam

There's also a fellow at the table who is playing a Dragonborn Warlord, Tactical. I'll call him Merry. His Character name is Kriv

And here I am, Pippin to his Merry, -also- playing a Dragonborn Warlord (Inspiring), because I was told Warlords were scarce, and asked to make one the last time I filled out a table. I named him Krivar, due to wanting to alter one of the default names in the book slightly, and I want to play this guy somewhat as similar to a cross between Cesar, and Alexander, so the name is reminiscent.

First thing's first, we're told what the adventuring hook was that we apparently had already swallowed before beginning play. There are some goblins that have a price on their head. A fellow went in after the purse, and got lost. His sister, grief stricken, asks us to go in after him and bring him back... failing that, at least bring back his locket.

Okay... reasonable hook. Krivar is, after all, the defender of the defenseless... I can go with that.

(DM) "As you follow in the footsteps of (her brother), you come to an earthmoat."

(Me) Oh. Okay, they just didn't fill it with water yet. I wonder what's on the other side.

(DM) "As you head onto one of the bridges connecting different pieces of earth in the earth-mote, you spy goblins looking through a wagon."

(Me) "I call for them to explain what they are doing!"

(DM) "Yeeeah, intimidate doesn't work untill they're bloodied"

Later:

(Me) "So is it possible to go across not on the bridge?"

(DM) "No... you'd fall off the edge"

(Me) "Oh. Deep ravine, I take it?"

(DM) "No... you fall between the giant floating rocks."

(Me) ".... what?" *totally confused*

-One explanation of earth-mote as giant floating 'a wizard did it' phenomenon of earth and stone-

(Me) "... So why are we even here?!?"

(Ted) "Because this is where the guy went and we're rescuing him, or getting back the locket."

(Me) "No! I mean why do we, as a culture, in character, care about this floating flotsom? Why don't we just let the goblins keep their floating rocks, and stay on the nice sensible soil, and only kick their buts if they try to take over our lands?"

(All) "...."

(DM) "... aaanyway. Kriv, you're up next."

(Me) "...."

I basically manage to get 2 attacks off the entire combat with a full +6 to hit, due to the high AC of the goblins, and one of those is due to my using my cold breath on 4 different goblins, and only hitting 2 of them.

Later: "The Trail" somehow (... how did we follow a trail on giant rocks?) leads us to a giant tower.

Again, I basically wind up being unable to hit a thing in combat. This entire time, I've gotten not one bit of roleplay, other than the DM joking to the Eladrin Wizard that he's tying up 2 dragonborn to the wagon that he had previously declared destroyed when I talked about grabbing it... when we're down to one goblin.

At one point the DM explains that a line is not a wall, but a drop off into the abyss... again.

(Me) "Oh, right, the stupid earth mote thing."

(Ted) -Big explination about the world, which I keep telling him I don't want to hear.-

(Me) -Short rant about how I stopped paying attention to 5th time they killed of Mystra, and it seems like they've killed her off 2 times since.-

(DM) "So, Krivar, it's your turn. what do you do?"

(Me) "... I attack the Earth moat"

(DM) "... what?"

(Me) "I attempt to sunder the earth mote. I'll be at this until the battle is over, and I'll come back later to finish it off."

(DM) "The rock?"

(Me) "The whole moat."

(DM) "...." "... okay...?" *obviously expecting me to just be kidding*

(Me) *nods, ready for the next turn, as the chuckles around the table die down*

*Bored, and not pleased, I go ask for my voluntary dollar contribution to the printing costs back, then wear a box on my head, point to it, and call it 'hat'. The others chuckle a lot at this, especially as it falls over my face, or off of my head occasionally. I'm laughing at myself at this point, and others join in.*

(DM) "You have too go around the store like that."

(Me) "Sure, why not." *walks around the store* *Points to box* "Hat" *holds up two fingers* "Nanu-nanu

*my next turn*

(DM) "Your turn."

(Me) "I continue sundering the moat."

(DM) "... Really?"

(Me) "Yep."

(Ted) "Just call the battle, man. Only one enemy left, wounded, and you know I can take it out myself."

(DM) "yeah, sure"

Much wiping of maps, I wander a bit more, come back, new map is up. I apparently missed the 3 sentance description of why we went.

(DM) "Because a blind goblin with eyes on a staff told you the guy you're looking for might be there, and asked you to take out the guy that usurped him."

(Me) "Okay. I have him in my backpack, tied up, then."

(DM) "... what?"

(Me) "If it's a tap, he dies too."

(DM) "..." *shrug* "Okay."

Map all set up... I haven't said a word to him since.

(Ted, and Merry) *try to explain more about the setting, to get me to like it.*

(Me) *incredulous responses of loathing*

(Ted) "Look man, just call the combat. You know we're going to destroy it no problem."

(DM) "You guys sure?"

(Ted) "Yeah, definitely. Look, it's not even worth rolling the dice to find out."

(Me) "I didn't ruing this session for you or anything, did I?"

(Merry) "No way, this is the closest to a home game a session here has ever been! I enjoyed myself!"

(Me) "Really? You sure?"

(Merry) "Yeah!" *seemed sincere*

(DM) "Okay, you guys win, let's get to rewards."

(Me) "Wait, did we find the guy?"

(DM) "Him? Yeah, he's dead."

(Me) "Well... then he's coming back with us in the wagon, if I have to pull it myself. His sister is going to be able to get closure with a popper burial!"

(DM) "Okay. You guys bring him back, and let the goblin cheiftain regain control of his tribe."

(Me) "No. He comes back tied up too. I'll drop him with the local authorities."

(DM) "... okay."

-----

I... very much doubt I will play again, unless no one can be convinced to swap tables.

Every player AND DM I have talked too but one has said that there's little to no Roleplaying available. One DM had some Roleplaying at his table. I was rather incredulous.

Any comments?

Similar experiences? Want to blame this on something other than 4th ed? The RGPA? FR? The DM? Me?

Mando Knight
2009-06-08, 08:51 PM
I'd place the blame on the DM and RPGA, mostly, since the DM assumed that you knew that Earth-motes were Laputa-wannabes rather than empty moats.

And because it's RPGA.

The Glyphstone
2009-06-08, 08:53 PM
I don't like 4E either, but the total lack of RP is apparently an endemic problem with RPGA games of all editions...

Glyde
2009-06-08, 08:54 PM
It's been my experience that the RPGA is a bunch of crap most times. The few times I played the GM intentionally tried to get the party killed, as opposed to play *with* the group. He was afraid my hilariously unoptimized dwarven wizard was going to hit something for once (Cast true strike, of course.) So he decided that the cleave feat let you move. Forty feet. Getting another full attack.

NecroRebel
2009-06-08, 08:56 PM
I... fail to see how the game system has to do with any of it, to be honest. You don't like 4E FR, but that has nothing to do with the system. Your DM wasn't any good for your tastes, but that has nothing to do with the system. And the latter is almost certainly due to the venue being no good, either.

What does the presence or absence of roleplaying have anything to do with it being a 4E game?

Josh the Aspie
2009-06-08, 08:58 PM
Well, this is the group that I also go to for the most role-playing heavy game I have ever played anywhere, Legend of the Five Rings / Heroes of Rokugan II.

Given, none of the folks at the table I was at play that game...

NecroRebel
2009-06-08, 09:00 PM
Well, this is the group that I also go to for the most role-playing heavy game I have ever played anywhere, Legend of the Five Rings / Heroes of Rokugan II.

Given, none of the folks at the table I was at play that game...

So... You're dealing with a completely different group, with completely different tastes, and a completely different setting, and you at least imply that the reason for your bad experience is the system? :smallconfused:



Score one for scientific rigor :smalltongue:

Zeta Kai
2009-06-08, 09:06 PM
As much as I hate HATE HATE 4E, I must admit that your problems had nothing to do with the ruleset that you were playing with. It was your DM & your venue that were the issues. I can virtually guarantee you that a home game with a competent DM will net you much better results.

Better luck next time.

Josh the Aspie
2009-06-08, 09:10 PM
Did I at any point blame the system specifically? I think I implied otherwise at several points in my original post.

I know that 2 out of the 5 people at that table specifically dislike Legend of the Five Rings. One of them plays it, occasionally, but doesn't really enjoy it apparently. "It's to political. Then again, I -do- keep making social characters."

Eh.

I've just had really bad experiences with 4th edition thus far. I've read the books, found many changes to be idiotic (my healing spells as a cleric... let other people... spend their healing surges... something they can spend on their own to heal... in order to let them use it... and thus are only useful in combat... .... .... huh). I disliked the game from the first reading.

Since then, everything I've disliked about the system has gotten worse -and- other things have popped up. (A potion... consumes... a healing surge? What?)

The setting, and the kinds of people, locally, who enjoy playing 4th ed doesn't really help much either... the only person I know that enjoys both 4th ed and Rokugan, finds the 4th ed area to be lacking in Roleplaying as well, and also finds the system to be discouraging to RP.

It may well be that my experiences are not to be blamed on the system...

But I've gamed in FR before. I've gamed in the RPGA before... heck, I once gamed in 2nd ed FR in the RPGA before it became 'organized play' then went back to being the RPGA again. 2nd ed RPGA FR was bad... but it's never been as bad as what I recently went through. >.<

2 modules, one where I didn't understand the rules, another where I was at a table where many seem to dislike the roleplaying in roleplaying games... definitely not a large sample size... but I find myself not really wanting to go back to get a larger one.

Shadow_Elf
2009-06-08, 09:14 PM
As much as I hate HATE HATE 4E, I must admit that your problems had nothing to do with the ruleset that you were playing with. It was your DM & your venue that were the issues. I can virtually guarantee you that a home game with a competent DM will net you much better results.

Better luck next time.

I didn't know you HATED HATE hated it Zeta. That's some serious hate.

I agree with all of the above - with the right DM, 4e is awesomesauce in a can. It was clearly your poor DM, the poor FR "update" made in 4e and the venue that were the issue here.
And people complain that the lack of roleplaying is due to the system's focus on combat. But just because the mechanics are focused on combat doens't mean the gameplay is.

My opinion: I don't need rules on how to play my character. I only need an imagination and common sense for that. If my roleplaying ability is dependent on the system, then something is wrong with the way my brain is wired.

Josh the Aspie
2009-06-08, 09:16 PM
First off, I do not mind the character I play at all, any more than I would mind any other system. I often get stuck in the support role because I tend to do it well. I'm getting a bit sick of playing a cleric heal-bot all the time, but figured a new spin on support might be fun.

No, I do not blame the system.

I listed an experience. It was a negative one. I specifically acknowledged other negative influences on the game.

However, thus far, the Players are not one of the common elements...

And I did not say they are the worst players.

The common elements thus far are: RPGA, FR, 4th Ed.

Artanis
2009-06-08, 09:16 PM
Did I at any point blame the system specifically?
Yes, you did.


Want to blame this on something other than 4th ed? The RGPA? FR? The DM? Me?
That means that you are defaulting to putting the blame on the system. If that was not your intent, you should do more to insure that it is not seen as such, since it can easily be misconstrued when dealing with an issue as charged as 4e.

Josh the Aspie
2009-06-08, 09:20 PM
I didn't know you HATED HATE hated it Zeta. That's some serious hate.

I agree with all of the above - with the right DM, 4e is awesomesauce in a can. It was clearly your poor DM, the poor FR "update" made in 4e and the venue that were the issue here.
And people complain that the lack of roleplaying is due to the system's focus on combat. But just because the mechanics are focused on combat doens't mean the gameplay is.

My opinion: I don't need rules on how to play my character. I only need an imagination and common sense for that. If my roleplaying ability is dependent on the system, then something is wrong with the way my brain is wired.

Wait wait wait wait... so you're saying that if I lack a comprehensive and immersive roleplaying experience playing... say... warhammer 40K... I shouldn't blame that on playing a war game, but who I'm playing it with?

Artanis
2009-06-08, 09:21 PM
Wait wait wait wait... so you're saying that if I lack a comprehensive and immersive roleplaying experience playing... say... warhammer 40K... I shouldn't blame that on playing a war game, but who I'm playing it with?

Last I checked, WH40K wasn't an RPG

NPCMook
2009-06-08, 09:26 PM
From what I've heard and read, a lot of people have issues with the WotC based Modules being terrible in general.

shadzar
2009-06-08, 09:28 PM
Typical RPGA garbage. Any allowances of roleplaying would create imbalance in any connection to other RPGA games, so everything is just combat for treasure.

I have never seen anything form an RPGA game/event that is any better than this.

You may have some better DMs, but the games are set to run within a time-limit for venue convenience. When you put a time-limit that everything must be completed in, then you remove a major portion of the game.

DM wasn't much help either so I would blame the DM for being DM when they are too new, the RPGA for faulty format, and 4th edition for trying to be something for RPGA, which isn't at all the way D&D is played outside of RPGA events.

Did you ever get your dollar back?

Lert, A.
2009-06-08, 09:31 PM
Last I checked, WH40K wasn't an RPG

Dark Heresy is. :smalltongue:

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2009-06-08, 09:41 PM
Yeah this is just typical RPGA stuff, and you were in fact shirking blame towards the system.
When trying a new game, you have to remember rule number 1: Never go to an RPGA event. Ever.

TheThan
2009-06-08, 09:49 PM
This doesnít even sound bad, just lame. Its not like someone got arrested or anything.

Lert, A.
2009-06-08, 09:54 PM
No, I do not blame the system.


This may be the case, at least from your post where I can see that you were frustrated with the way that the game is run.

You choice of thread title sucks though.

If your title had anything to do with your experience it didn't show, except to draw attention to the edition wars. All that people see is "Wah wah! Didn't like. 4th edition."

Dagren
2009-06-08, 10:35 PM
This doesnít even sound bad, just lame. Its not like someone got arrested or anything....That's your yardstick? Woah...

The Glyphstone
2009-06-08, 10:53 PM
This doesnít even sound bad, just lame. Its not like someone got arrested or anything.

Now I miss LankyBugger....

Josh the Aspie
2009-06-08, 11:09 PM
{snip}

you should do more to insure that it is not seen as such, since it can easily be misconstrued when dealing with an issue as charged as 4e.

You wish more precision? Very well. I will drop the artifice in the speech (or rather, writing) patterns which I use when communicating with you, in order to ensure that my meaning is more clear.

Since this is the internet, and voice tone can neither be written or read without 'tags' that impart hardly any meaning, the only content that can be relied upon is that which is written. I invited comments from others, one type of which was the placing of blame on things other than 4th ed. You inferred this, but I did not imply it. An equally valid subtext to infer would be that I was inviting speculation towards causation only if it did not blame 4th edition directly.

Do not propose that I implied that which you inferred.

Josh the Aspie
2009-06-08, 11:16 PM
Last I checked, WH40K wasn't an RPG

Role Playing Games are ones which take the art of roleplaying, and create a system to support that roleplaying, to give it structure. From another perspective, they are what you gain when you take a war game, and add the playing of roles as a part of the game to add flavor to the mechanics. As such, there are many different blends along this spectrum, with free-form on one end, and war games on the other.

Shadow_Elf suggested that if a game is combat-focused, this is no impediment to roleplaying. I asked if he felt that this would hold true in such an extreme case on this spectrum as a War Game.

If this is not the case, I postulate two potential causes.
1. The game it's self does not properly support roleplaying, and as such, any amount of roleplaying involved is likely to be minimal.
2. The gamers do not roleplay, because they do not expect this to be a part of the game.

Thus far, the majority of the posters have posited that the lack of roleplaying can be attributed to cause #2, with a smattering of cause 1, if you view the RPGA meta-rules to be a part of the system for the sake of this discussion.

I would posit that in many cases, cause 1 can be a major factor in bringing about cause 2.

Josh the Aspie
2009-06-08, 11:21 PM
Typical RPGA garbage.

I have never seen anything form an RPGA game/event that is any better than this.

You may have some better DMs, but the games are set to run within a time-limit for venue convenience. When you put a time-limit that everything must be completed in, then you remove a major portion of the game.

DM wasn't much help either so I would blame the DM for being DM when they are too new, the RPGA for faulty format, and 4th edition for trying to be something for RPGA, which isn't at all the way D&D is played outside of RPGA events.

Did you ever get your dollar back?

Back when Arcanis was supported by the RPGA, before their falling out, and before the mid-campaign rules change via 'massive errata' I found Arcanis to support roleplaying fairly well. The main downside of this was explaining how the characters got together.

In many cases, we ran over time-slot times on those games, because of the huge amount of roleplaying, spurred by the way the campaign was set up, and the new, and interesting world.

I haven't gotten my dollar back, no. The seceretary was the only club officer there that day, and she was busy right up until leaving for the day. she said I could have it back, but she was judging at the time (I really should not have interrupted even for that question), so I told her it could wait till later for her to actually give it back. I see her outside of game days, so I'll just ask her to add that to my share of the meal-cost pot of the home game, to make things easy.

Josh the Aspie
2009-06-08, 11:23 PM
This may be the case, at least from your post where I can see that you were frustrated with the way that the game is run.

You choice of thread title sucks though.

If your title had anything to do with your experience it didn't show, except to draw attention to the edition wars. All that people see is "Wah wah! Didn't like. 4th edition."

But... I -did- try 4th edition, and that experience is what the thread is about. And my first paragraph was to give more details on the surrounding circumstances. What title, that fit in the space allotted, would you suggest?

valadil
2009-06-08, 11:32 PM
LFR is railroady hack and slash at the best of times. At the worst of times, its, well, what you just played. It wouldn't have been any better in another system. Try not to begrudge 4e for this.

It took me a while to get used to playing LFR. Once I convinced myself to treat it like a video game instead of actual roleplay it was fine.

Lert, A.
2009-06-08, 11:33 PM
But... I -did- try 4th edition, and that experience is what the thread is about. And my first paragraph was to give more details on the surrounding circumstances. What title, that fit in the space allotted, would you suggest?

I just tried out:

Forgotten Realms RPGA day *facepalm*
Dread encounter at the circle K
GM tried to steal my will to live, seriously
WHYYYYY???? Why did I go?

It fits. I'm sure that something else could have worked without mentioning 4e in the header.

Whatever. What's done is done.

Colmarr
2009-06-08, 11:37 PM
Similar experiences? Want to blame this on something other than 4th ed?

I really don't see what 4e had to do with any of this. The only 4e mechanic you mentioned was your +6 to hit, and your luck or otherwise with dice is not a 4e mechanic.

You got a DM (and seemingly a table of co-players) with little interest in roleplaying. It's nothing to do with the 4e system.


I have never seen anything from an RPGA game/event that is any better than this.

I have. RPGA writing focuses on the combat, with a minimum of plot, because there is a limited time available to run the adventure. I've only played in one RPGA session, but it involved so much roleplaying that we only got through 1 of the 3 encounters. As others (and I) have already stated, Josh's bad DM isn't purely an RPGA construct. You're no more or less likely to get a bad DM at the RPGA than the first time you try to find a home game.

NecroRebel
2009-06-08, 11:39 PM
You wish more precision? Very well. I will drop the artifice in the speech (or rather, writing) patterns which I use when communicating with you, in order to ensure that my meaning is more clear.

Since this is the internet, and voice tone can neither be written or read without 'tags' that impart hardly any meaning, the only content that can be relied upon is that which is written. I invited comments from others, one type of which was the placing of blame on things other than 4th ed. You inferred this, but I did not imply it. An equally valid subtext to infer would be that I was inviting speculation towards causation only if it did not blame 4th edition directly.

Do not propose that I implied that which you inferred.

The fact that multiple people "inferred" you trying to place the blame on the fact that it was 4E rather than other causes says something quite strong about that inferance, namely that evidence for it is very strongly present in your post.

You're also splitting hairs. In fact, to infer is to take subtext and deduce truths from it, while to imply is to put subtext so that truths can be deduced from it. Implication invites inferance, and you damned well implied something.


But... I -did- try 4th edition, and that experience is what the thread is about. And my first paragraph was to give more details on the surrounding circumstances. What title, that fit in the space allotted, would you suggest?

"Bad RPGA Session," perhaps? Anything at all that didn't refer to 4th edition, since, as you claim, 4th edition wasn't something you wanted to talk about?

You had one bad experience, by your own admission not with a group you know to be good, and you... Well, you don't like "imply," so let's just say you "suggest" that it was because of 4e that the experience was bad. You, perhaps unintentionally but perhaps not, made this into a thread about 4e.

Origomar
2009-06-08, 11:54 PM
That makes my experience that i had about a month ago seem much better comparatively speaking :)

Josh the Aspie
2009-06-09, 12:09 AM
Okay, first of all, I have apparently misspoken several times. Yes, multiple people have gotten the same impression from my post.

Once and for all, I do not exclusively blame 4th ed for the bad experiences. I do, however, find it to be lack luster thus far.

I don't like the rules as they exist in the book.
I haven't enjoyed either of my attempts to roleplay it.
I did not post with the intent of directly bashing 4th ed, and 4th ed alone, merely the experience... which WAS an experience with 4th ed, no mather what else it was an experience with.

I've had dealings with the RPGA before. I've had dealings with the other players before. I've had dealings with FR before. 4th ed was the unknown element that I was getting to know. It was 4th ed I was giving a try too, not the other factors.

That my experience was negative, is not some end all be all send up of how horrible 4th ed is. It wasn't intended to be... but people seem to be treating it as if it were.

Yes, there is some blame to go around.

As for that section at the end of my post? Wasn't sure if people were going to post in response at all. I figured that if they -were- it would basically be a bunch of people saying over and over again that "4th ed doesn't suck!" And... it seems I couldn't have been more right. I even listed a fair number of the contributing factors that others identified.

Edit: To be fair, this was my first time with this particular DM, though I have been in games where he is a player before.

shadzar
2009-06-09, 12:18 AM
I have. RPGA writing focuses on the combat, with a minimum of plot, because there is a limited time available to run the adventure. I've only played in one RPGA session, but it involved so much roleplaying that we only got through 1 of the 3 encounters. As others (and I) have already stated, Josh's bad DM isn't purely an RPGA construct. You're no more or less likely to get a bad DM at the RPGA than the first time you try to find a home game.

You have a very different experience than many I hear about. They are mostly herded along the written material at events to fit as many people in as possible to gain more customers for the store.

Another_Poet
2009-06-09, 12:23 AM
Aspie, I'm very sorry to hear about how little fun you had at that game day.

But I suggest that in future, when you are bored or unimpressed (with the setting, the DM, the adventure or all three) you find a better way to express it.

Frankly it sounds to me like you may have spoiled an otherwise enjoyable session for other people. The fact that you actually had to come out and ask the others if you ruined the session lends some credence to that. And the fact that one other person (of what, 5?) apparently sincerely said it you did not ruin it, does little to convince me otherwise.

TheThan
2009-06-09, 12:36 AM
...That's your yardstick? Woah...

Naw, I donít but well its hard to top lankybuggerís stories.

Josh the Aspie
2009-06-09, 12:48 AM
I suggest that in future, when you are bored or unimpressed (with the setting, the DM, the adventure or all three) you find a better way to express it.

I agree with you here.

In my defense, the first clue I had of the fact that my behavior might have been negatively impacting on the fun of the other players was the first called combat, and when I asked my question, more than one of them said no, as though it hadn't even occurred to them. That fellow I mentioned was just the most vocal. Up until that point, folks had been laughing along with my quips, and snickering at the box-hat. At the point the combat was called, I just tried harder to stay out of the way... and my wanderings might have disrupted other areas of the store.

Still, if I had the mental fortitude, simply meditating until it was my turn to do something in combat would have been a far better choice.

If this ever comes up again, I think I'll just put my sheet on the table, tell folks I'm simply there to mechanically make table, and say anyone can use my character's abilities if they so choose, then just head out into the parking lot for some martial arts practice, or go home, and pick the sheet up later. That way the 3 can play as much as they like with the module, and won't be "under powered."

Another_Poet
2009-06-09, 12:56 AM
That.... is an incredibly mature response to a post I was worried would come off as too critical.

Good on you :smallsmile:

TrashCat
2009-06-09, 01:07 AM
[Edit: Nevermind... was going to post something, but it's not relevant anymore.]

Josh the Aspie
2009-06-09, 02:06 AM
That.... is an incredibly mature response to a post I was worried would come off as too critical.

Good on you :smallsmile:

Following a bit of an immature day, I'm afraid.

Still, every mistake I make and recognize, and every time I find a new way to succeed and recognize it, I make myself better. As long as I keep admitting to my mistakes, and seeking to fix them, and keep reflecting on the causes of my successes, I shall continue to improve myself.

And your post was critical, but not overly so. It helped me to reflect, and improve myself. For that, I thank you.

Shademan
2009-06-09, 03:16 AM
so RPGA is some sorta' con i take it? yeah i live at the north pole, so i wouldnt know.

Sounds to me like that DM was trying to run a video game, not a role-playing game.
and since we're talking about 4E, I tried that like...two times. the second time I tried it one of the other players (PbP, btw) said "You can't put that much in intelligence. Rangers are supposed to follow THIS build." so yeah...

just sharing a experience too

KIDS
2009-06-09, 03:37 AM
People are people and not related to editions. I've just as frequently despaired over poor DMs and people who don't roleplay in all editions as now. That thing wil never change. I would have been pissed off too.

Why not start a game at home with a few friends you trust?

Kurald Galain
2009-06-09, 06:11 AM
Yeah, it's been said before, but this really isn't representative of 4E. At all.

Several RPGA adventures are kind of sucky, which explains part of it. Also, well, your unwillingness to accept floating rocks as part of the setting didn't help; if you start a session (regardless of game) with the expectation that you will be annoyed and/or bored, then yes, your prediction will likely turn out to be correct. But you're doing it to yourself.

bosssmiley
2009-06-09, 07:32 AM
(Me) "No! I mean why do we, as a culture, in character, care about this floating flotsam? Why don't we just let the goblins keep their floating rocks, and stay on the nice sensible soil, and only kick their buts if they try to take over our lands?"

(All) "...."

General Rules for Living a Happy Life While Playing in Tournament Games:
Do not question the assumptions of the prepared content.
Do not attempt to deviate from the tracks laid down by the RPGA Railroad Plotting Survey Department.
Your character's motivation is "Because it's there".
Now shut up and roll! :smallamused:

DamnedIrishman
2009-06-09, 07:46 AM
Last I checked, WH40K wasn't an RPG

I've played WH40K as an RPG. It's great fun: you characterise your leaders and major units (like Dreadnoughts, Demons or whatever) and play the battle through as they'll act. And give them dialogue. IN FUNNY VOICES!

Facetious note: RPG = role-playing game.
WH40K = game where you play the role of a general. Really, it's just a more in-depth version of the ToB. :smallwink:

Oslecamo
2009-06-09, 08:38 AM
I've played WH40K as an RPG. It's great fun: you characterise your leaders and major units (like Dreadnoughts, Demons or whatever) and play the battle through as they'll act. And give them dialogue. IN FUNNY VOICES!


Actually, WH40K started as an RPG, where you controled your little army and went around the galaxy doing missions for the Empire. There was even suposed to be a story teller wich would control the (in that time) nonplayable races like orks, tyrannids and necrons to throw up at the player. There was noncombat rules and your squads could even level up as they won battles.

Then it become a pure tabletop game where there's no need for a story teller because it's just two players bashing each other out.

With 4e, D&D is slowly but surely going that way. Less and less noncombat rules, more and more grids and miniatures.

Another_Poet
2009-06-09, 09:52 AM
(Me) "No! I mean why do we, as a culture, in character, care about this floating flotsam? Why don't we just let the goblins keep their floating rocks, and stay on the nice sensible soil, and only kick their buts if they try to take over our lands?"

(All) "...."


I've given this aspect some more thought. And I agree with bosssmiley's rule not to question RPGA content and just accept it as-is. But if you are going to question it I think there is a good answer in this case.

Imagine if there were floating rock islands over the United States. Would the U.S., as a nation, not want territorial control over them? For security reasons at the very least, and possible also to mine/settle/exploit them?

Now imagine if the people who lived on the flying rocks were a people that the United States was traditionally at war with. North Korean flying rocks? Would the U.S. really adopt a policy of "let them have their flying rocks, as long as they don't invade our lands that are directly beneath them"?

And last but not least, imagine the People's Republic of North Korean Flying Rocks sent out raiding parties that kidnapped people from the U.S. countryside and took them back to the rocks against their will.

Yeah, I'd say there's an interest in cracking down on the goblins on the flying rocks.

Of course the sad thing is that the DM id not have a cool answer like this or couldn't come up with one. So I do feel your pain.

ap

Philistine
2009-06-09, 10:07 AM
so RPGA is some sorta' con i take it? yeah i live at the north pole, so i wouldnt know.

Sounds to me like that DM was trying to run a video game, not a role-playing game.
and since we're talking about 4E, I tried that like...two times. the second time I tried it one of the other players (PbP, btw) said "You can't put that much in intelligence. Rangers are supposed to follow THIS build." so yeah...

just sharing a experience too

Obviously nothing like that could EVER happen in a 3.X game...

Oh, wait. :smallamused:

bosssmiley
2009-06-09, 10:13 AM
And last but not least, imagine the People's Republic of North Korean Flying Rocks sent out raiding parties that kidnapped people from the U.S. countryside and took them back to the rocks against their will.

♪ We're so stony, so stony,
So stony and sadly airborne... ♫

/derailment

Shademan
2009-06-09, 10:30 AM
Obviously nothing like that could EVER happen in a 3.X game...

Oh, wait. :smallamused:

i get your point. But in 3.5 I never have the feeling that I MUST follow a certain build to be able to play the game without getting raped by the first kobold that have been alone for too long.

Friv
2009-06-09, 11:30 AM
Shadow_Elf suggested that if a game is combat-focused, this is no impediment to roleplaying. I asked if he felt that this would hold true in such an extreme case on this spectrum as a War Game.

*pssh* My friends and I RP'd the hell out of Warhammer back in the days when we played it.

I can still remember Tarin the Red, stalwart Imperial wizard, and his horror as a Skaven flamethrower lanced through the ranks of the enemy, catching alight the beautiful Siranna Rimesword. As she fell, his roar of rage echoed across the lines, the Skaven laughed and mocked him. But they weren't laughing when he gathered his arcane energies and sent pillars of mystical force to shatter their ranks and send them back to their dark warrens.

I also remember Lucky Hat, the High Elf spearmen renowned for being the only survivor of his regiment... five times. He survived battles with orcs, the Empire, Skaven, Bretonnians, and orcs again. Only survivor. Eventually, the High Elves started putting him into decoy units, on the grounds that no regiment he joined ever lasted a battle.

Killer Angel
2009-06-09, 11:38 AM
I've played WH40K as an RPG. It's great fun: you characterise your leaders and major units (like Dreadnoughts, Demons or whatever) and play the battle through as they'll act. And give them dialogue. IN FUNNY VOICES!


Dreadnoughts DON'T SPEAK in FUNNY voices! This is an Heresy! :smallcool:

shadzar
2009-06-09, 04:56 PM
Dreadnoughts DON'T SPEAK in FUNNY voices! This is an Heresy! :smallcool:

So Horus speaks in funny voices? :smallconfused:

Josh the Aspie
2009-06-09, 09:44 PM
so RPGA is some sorta' con i take it?

RPGA stands for Role Playing Games Association.

It is an official branch of Wizards of the Coast and only sponsors games that WotC makes (so it is definitely NOT what it says on the tin).

The modules made by it are geared for the most power gaming power gamers in the campaign, and include little to no roleplaying queues. The have been some exceptions, such as certain regions of Living Greyhawk having rather flavorful mods made by players, rather than WotC or RPGA staff.

This is the organization that my local gaming club origonally formed around, back when there was Living Death (set in Ravenloft), Living Arcanus (third party product the RPGA supported), even non-D20 games. They have, however, continually thrown out anything that was good and role-playing themed, in favor of more control.

Living Arcanis, for example, lost RPGA support, when the RPGA tried to claim (contrary to contract) that all modules distributed through the RPGA were the property of WotC, rather than the original creating organization. Given that the modules created by the folks that make Living Arcanis were fairly well a portion of their main product, they told WotC to go suck on a rusty saw-blade.

Their most recent incarnations of the RPGA, and newer games have been getting worse and worse.

For one thing, they send you collectible cards for their current 'favorate' campaign that they are trying to prompt you to play, based on how many modules you have played. These can be used for in-game benefits. So, for example, if you played lots of modules for Living Greyhawk, they would send you cards for the campaign 'Legend of the green Regent', or 'Living Eberon' and now it's '"Living Forgotten Realms', meaning that if you then entered the game with those cards, you were more powerful than someone who entered, having never played D&D. That upset a large number of gamers.

They also instituted online tracking, or tried, several times, which never quite worked right.

Josh the Aspie
2009-06-09, 09:45 PM
General Rules for Living a Happy Life While Playing in Tournament Games:
Do not question the assumptions of the prepared content.
Do not attempt to deviate from the tracks laid down by the RPGA Railroad Plotting Survey Department.
Your character's motivation is "Because it's there".
Now shut up and roll! :smallamused:

Buuu buuu buuu... right. The Role you get to play is 'idiot' got it. :smallannoyed:

Josh the Aspie
2009-06-09, 09:47 PM
Imagine if there were floating rock islands over the United States. Would the U.S., as a nation, not want territorial control over them? For security reasons at the very least, and possible also to mine/settle/exploit them?


Wait, so there is human-inhabited airable land under these giant floating rocks? Now see, that would make more sense.

The way I pictured it, is more along the lines of if Mexico's top 30-40 feet suddenly started floating, south of the United States.

ImmortalAer
2009-06-09, 09:57 PM
Last I checked, WH40K wasn't an RPG

You just haven't been playing with the right people.

...or the right location.

Another_Poet
2009-06-09, 10:20 PM
Wait, so there is human-inhabited airable land under these giant floating rocks? Now see, that would make more sense.

The way I pictured it, is more along the lines of if Mexico's top 30-40 feet suddenly started floating, south of the United States.

Ah, I see. Well in that case I still see the security threat. The US would, and has, sent troops over the Mexican border when people have raided across into US territory. We no long do that over something as minor as a single kidnapping, mostly because if we pressured the Mexican gov't they would extradite the criminal back to us. But if it was Evil Goblins down there (Duendes?) instead of Rational People, I'm sure we'd do a lot more than send a gang of 4-6 freelance adventurers after them.

Josh the Aspie
2009-06-09, 11:01 PM
Actually, the border guard is currently in opened and armed conflict with Mexican drug cartels, who are the ones actually in control of the northern-most reaches of Mexico. We also have rather large scale armed conflict with the Mexican drug cartel's private armies along our southern border.

It's mostly a defensive front, as there does not currently seem to be the will for an offensive front, and due to attempting to get things worked out through the Mexican side.

Unfortunately, due to the large amount of corruption in the Mexican army, the more guns we send to them, the more American guns wind up in the hands of the Mexican drug cartells. Current statistics for American manufactured fire-arms are about 14-15% of those recovered from the cartels.

Mexican drug cartels also make frequent raids across the border against US cities, and many of the killings and kidnappings in Southern Texas are due to organized Mexican drug cartels.

So the current day situation with Mexico is actually fairly similar to the situation with the goblins, save that we have additional political considerations, the Mexican land is not floating in some wierd magical effect, and the enmity is not along species lines, but organizational (US Gov, vrs Mexican drug cartels).

In the past, without the current political considerations, the US has sent armies to deal with similar situations... so actually, sending adventurers/mercs in after the goblins, which is the backdrop, is basically using the medieval equivalent, since many medieval armies were made up of mercenaries... and that is the backdrop of the adventure.

You're right. This does actually make more sense once given more thought, given the context... of... floating... rock... islands...

Thajocoth
2009-06-10, 12:15 AM
Want to blame this on something other than 4th ed? The RGPA? FR? The DM? Me?It doesn't sound like it was you. I don't see how the setting (FR) could really effect it, but the settings my friends & I play are custom. I'm unfamiliar with the RPGA so I couldn't say either way. You admit yourself that you could tell the DM wasn't good, and that's without being completely familiar with the system.

As for the other possibility listed there:

He wasn't playing 4th edition. There were enough incorrect calls in what you posted to make me suspect there were a great deal more in what you didn't. It also sounds like it was all just battles, and either you were VERY unoptimized, or the enemies were too high level. (I have no idea what level you were.)

Intimidate, for example. You can use it to make a bloodied target surrender. That's what he was talking about. It didn't sound to me like you were asking him to surrender... Or really even trying to intimidate him.

Poor descriptions... Hardly any NPCs for RP... Railroading... Probably no traps or skill challenges either? Sure, it CAN be played as a string of fights for no reason... But it loses so much when you do that.


1. The game it's self does not properly support roleplaying, and as such, any amount of roleplaying involved is likely to be minimal.
2. The gamers do not roleplay, because they do not expect this to be a part of the game.

It's 3. The gamers did not roleplay because the GM shut down when it was attempted. You pointed this fact out in your post.

Roleplay can't really be done solo so much. The games I'm in & run have plenty of rp.

-----

As for healing surges... They're there to balance all the daily powers. Because of their limited quantity, a Cleric's healing, even out of combat, is better than spending one's own surges. Though, I haven't seen too many people play 4e's leader role and like it. I could expand on that if asked. The leaders are balanced with the other roles, but it's not really as fun to simply heal, let people save more often, and provide others with bonuses. At that point you're more of an item than a player. Warlords even have an at-will power where they tell another player to make an attack instead of attacking. "For my standard action, someone else at the table will slay the fell beast and get all the glory for having done so!"


-----


I'm not trying to get on your case... I'm just tossing in my personal opinion on the matter. It is entirely possible 4th ed played well isn't for you either. To each their own, right?

Panda-s1
2009-06-10, 01:12 AM
@Josh the Aspie
Um... yeah, I'd say it's the DM's fault. The way he's going, it seems like he's gonna become one of those iron fisted, "it's not in the rules so you can't do it (except when it's convenient for me)" GMs the world really needs less of. I can understand not a whole lot of roleplaying opportunities in the adventure, or the rules, but seriously does he not use a lot of roleplaying because there aren't a lot of rules for it? Ugh...

Ironically, while I'm not an official RPGA member, I got to run the adventure for the last Game Day. One of the players loved 3rd ed. (that's 3.0, not 3.5) to death, but hadn't played in a while, and he had a blast. I had a blast 'cause the adventures featured rust monsters, and while I knew 4e rust monsters are less annoying than previous editions, he didn't and his dragonborn rogue avoided them as much as possible :P

There was also the new guy who may or may not have played modern/scifi RPGs or MMOs before, but while he was dismayed there wasn't a shooty character for him to play, he had fun in his first foray into fantasy tabletop gaming having to play both the tiefling warlord with high Int, and the dwarf paladunce. The best part was when the tiefling jacked the dwarf's crossbow on the way to the BBEG's lair. Then in the final encounter, the paladin had to make a ranged attack and...! Wait, his crossbow was missing...

And there was plenty of roleplaying to be had, right down to the female dragonborn rogue's ass being touched by the male dragonborn paladin (played by the rogue's player's girlfriend, no less :P).

Here's what I think you should do to cure your 4e woes: run your own game. Run it how you like. It's still D&D, and I can assure you it'll be more or less the same as before, just a lot less complicated. Find new players, ones who are interested in RPGs for rp's sake (and even some who don't). By the sounds of it, older players in your area aren't what you're looking for, but if you look carefully I'm sure you'll find someone you like. And then run it. If there's something in the way of a cool idea you have, just hand wave it, you're the DM. Extend it to the players, too. What I like about new players is most of them are innately curious. It is a roleplaying game, and they will, in fact, roleplay. Hell, they don't care about XP at this point, and they will give a sh*t that there's a vegetable stand in the town square.

This is why I love 4e. The first chapter of the PHB (that everyone conveniently glosses over, it seems) basically lays out that this is a game of the imagination, you get to control a character of your own design, and what you do with it in the game is only limited to your imagination. And from there on out there's bits of roleplaying interspersed in the rules (I especially love the sidebars in the Power books). The skills are broad enough that you can use them creatively... and okay, I'll stop gushing.

The point is, you probably should take this from the stand point of "Okay, what kind of game do I want to run with D&D?" and just run with it. If there isn't a rule for something you want to do, then it probably wasn't necessary, and if you do think it's necessary make one up, you're the DM! If you want roleplaying, then reward it. "A halfling walks by playing around with a magical, flaming dagger. Gee, maybe you should've answered that mysterious old man's riddle." Not everything is handed to you on a platter, you have to be (and are allowed to be) creative.

With 4e, D&D is slowly but surely going that way. Less and less noncombat rules, more and more grids and miniatures.
Hmmm, reminds me of an old RPG I heard of once, I think they call it AD&D...

Subsequently I'd have to argue the opposite. In 3rd ed., there was a rule for virtually everything. Why would you need a DM for that? Oh sure, someone has to control the monsters, but why not have a Monster Controlling guy instead of a DM? Besides, a DM isn't necessary, if you want to do something and aren't sure how it works, you just have to look up the rules to do it.


so RPGA is some sorta' con i take it? yeah i live at the north pole, so i wouldnt know.

Sounds to me like that DM was trying to run a video game, not a role-playing game.
and since we're talking about 4E, I tried that like...two times. the second time I tried it one of the other players (PbP, btw) said "You can't put that much in intelligence. Rangers are supposed to follow THIS build." so yeah...

just sharing a experience too

i get your point. But in 3.5 I never have the feeling that I MUST follow a certain build to be able to play the game without getting raped by the first kobold that have been alone for too long.

Okay, first of all, you should e-smack that player for telling you to optimize your character. Secondly, you don't have to optimize your character, so long as your character isn't made retardedly (i.e. the ranger's Int was his highest stat) your character WILL NOT* be raped by kobolds. I don't have the feeling that "I MUST" follow a certain build in 4e, and I have a fun time playing, and making up characters on concept alone.

*I'm not making any guarantees, though. You might get that one sadistic DM who thinks player rape is an acceptable idea.