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Demons_eye
2009-06-09, 11:49 AM
Right now someone else is DMing for the group I am playing in, but in time I think I will have to DM again, so I thought I might as well start preparing now. For the Idea of this game the PC's would have to fight the bad guys ect.... BUT as a side plot, maybe even the real plot, they fight this beast that makes the saying what does not kill you makes you stronger to the next level. This animal will level as the PC's do but whenever they fight it, if they don't get a kill hit with whatever they use (sword magic whatever) It becomes immune to it. IE: Kach hits it with his long sword now it can't be hurt by long swords. Heg hits it with fireball now fireball does not hurt it. Was thinking this thing has about 3 lives, use it as a plot hook sometimes or like I said use it as the main plot but don't let the player know it is the main plot.

What do you guys think?

JellyPooga
2009-06-09, 12:00 PM
Hmm, could be a tricky one...I'd say you'd have to be quite lenient and be very specific. For example, rather than it gets hit by a longsword and becomes immune to all longswords, have it so that it gets hit by a +1 steel Longsword so becomes specifically immune to +1 Longswords made of steel, so a Mithral Longsword would still harm it. This would give the players a way of killing it; i.e. they could go out and buy a whole bunch of weapons made from different materials and with differing magical enhancements to keep damaging it.

This would give you the same sort of feel, but it wouldn't bone players that have feats like Weapon Focus or Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

For magic it's a little harder, but there are enough spells out there for a Wizard not to be so hard done by, but a Sorcerer will become ineffective very quickly indeed and have to rely on mundane attacks (in essence, he'll become a glorified Commoner once he's cast each of his spells on it). A Warlock becomes ineffective even quicker than a Sorcerer (but at least has 3/4 BAB, I suppose).

In short, you'd have to be very careful about this foe and think it through very carefully to balance exactly how this ability works with regards to your players' characters abilities.

Eloel
2009-06-09, 12:03 PM
A sorcerer can keep buffing allies when s/he has used every spell on enemies. Allies don't become immune to buffs...

JellyPooga
2009-06-09, 12:06 PM
A sorcerer can keep buffing allies when s/he has used every spell on enemies. Allies don't become immune to buffs...

That's assuming the Sorcerer took some buff spells...

Yora
2009-06-09, 12:09 PM
I think that seems pretty powerful and without NPC help, they may figure it out only at a point, when almost nothing can hurt in anmyore.

But what you could do and which might work well, is to make it a tough beast and have it become resistant to any forms of attack it survives. Hard to make into a hard rule, but supposed the PCs set a trap that involves lots of fire and the monster manages to escape and survive, it would have very high resistance against fire the next time they meet. But if the party wizard is just using his one single Burning Hands spell every time they try to kill it, the monster should not get full immunity at once. Rather, if it was subject to small ammounts of fire damage several times, make it have Fire Resistance 5 at first and raise it to 10, 15 or even 20, if the PCs use fire in their fights, but don't kill it yet.
Or, make it that after each fight, the PCs used steel weapons, the monster gets "DR 5/everything but steel". At the fourth or fifth fight, they should notice, that their steel weapons don't do any damage anymore, but a sharp stick from the collapsing roof pierced its leg and it limps away into the night. Of course, it's resistance to wood should be very low the next time they meet.

I think they might soon get the idea, that they have to try something different to kill the monster. But to realize they have to use something they haven't used before, might be a lot harder for them. So giving them second or third chances to try a given type of attack to kill it, might be even required. But as I said, once it has immunity against steel, wood, rock, fire, acid, and death effects, there are not many options they can try.

valadil
2009-06-09, 12:15 PM
I like it. I may even steal it (if ya don't mind).

The reason I like it is because you're fighting the same creature each time, so you'll have a reason to care. Recurring bosses are great that way. But it also changes the fight. The first time will be a normal fight. Next time around the players will know something weird is going on and they'll have to figure it out. The third time around they'll likely know its coming and have a whole new plan for dealing with it.

My concern is that mages will have an easier time with it than tanks. Each time they fight it they'll have a whole new set of spells to use. The first time they fight it, they'll use scorching ray and fireball. The second time it'll be orbs and cone of cold. Then the third time it'll be disintegrate, etc. They might not even see that their older spells don't work, because they have no reason to use the older spells.

Maybe instead spells could be blocked based on descriptor? IE, fire magic only works the first time. By school would probably be too rough.

Demons_eye
2009-06-09, 12:16 PM
The idea was that it would have low hp when they start and should be easy to kill. Then next time they face it not so much and the final time they should learn how to finaly kill it. Its if they run from it that I fear they might make it to hard.

Duke of URL
2009-06-09, 12:25 PM
I agree with the developing resistances bit -- one hit from a longsword making it immune to longswords just seems too outlandish.

Better to have broader resistances, but for them to build more slowly. For weapons, make it by material/type; for spells by general type. For spells, I'd go with two strategies: 1) energy/direct damage spells work similarly to weapons, in that it would build up a resistance to particular energy types (or untyped) -- spells that replicate weapon effects would be treated like weapons; 2) non-damage spells would increase SR vs. that school/descriptor/whatever.

So, the first time it gets hit by a slashing steel weapon, it gains DR 1 vs. slashing steel, the next time, it increases to DR 2, then DR 3, etc. (Or maybe a slightly faster progression.. start at DR 2 and increase by +2 each time.)

Adding a layer of complexity (and book-keeping), it could have a maximum total resistance cap -- once exceeded, it still increases its DR vs. the last attack that affects it, but at the cost of losing DR from a different form of attack. If the party can figure this out, it can possibly use the knowledge to their advantage.

In any case, simulate the relevant battles yourself once you've got a basic gameplan, in order to get a feel for how much you'd need to tweak the system to make it challenging, but not near-impossible.

JellyPooga
2009-06-09, 01:06 PM
I like the idea of progressive resistance; it means you can differentiate quite specifically, but you might want to denote DR like Energy Resistance (i.e. by what it's effective against, rather than what defeats it). For Example:

It gets hit by a Steel Warhammer.

DR: 5 vs. Steel
DR: 5 vs. Bludgeoning

Then it gets hit by a +1 Flaming Burst Wooden Club

DR: 5 vs. Steel
DR: 5 vs. Wood
DR: 10 vs. Bludgeoning
DR: 5 vs. Magic Weapons
ER: 5 vs. Fire

Only the lowest DR would apply because that would allow for new materials to be effective, but for repetitive use of similar weapons to quickly become ineffective. Once it passes a certain level (e.g. DR: 30 or 40) it could become full Immunity. So if it gets hit enough by Bludgeoning weapons, it soon becomes Immune (so long as they don't use a new material). Note that separate damage (as inflicted by the Flaming weapon quality) is treated separately...e.g. if it became immune to Wooden Magic Bludgeoning Weapons but not Fire and got hit by the Club above, it would take no weapon damage, but still take Fire damage.

Artanis
2009-06-09, 01:11 PM
A sorcerer can keep buffing allies when s/he has used every spell on enemies. Allies don't become immune to buffs...
Buffing allies would only work until the enemy became immune to their attacks as well.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-06-09, 01:12 PM
Right now someone else is DMing for the group I am playing in, but in time I think I will have to DM again, so I thought I might as well start preparing now. For the Idea of this game the PC's would have to fight the bad guys ect.... BUT as a side plot, maybe even the real plot, they fight this beast that makes the saying what does not kill you makes you stronger to the next level. This animal will level as the PC's do but whenever they fight it, if they don't get a kill hit with whatever they use (sword magic whatever) It becomes immune to it. IE: Kach hits it with his long sword now it can't be hurt by long swords. Heg hits it with fireball now fireball does not hurt it. Was thinking this thing has about 3 lives, use it as a plot hook sometimes or like I said use it as the main plot but don't let the player know it is the main plot.

What do you guys think?

Cool idea! Hard to judge how difficult it would be for the players. I have to agree with others that the monster can become quite powerful as it gains immunities AND the players fail to realize what is happening. You may get an "I attack the gazebo" scenario but with deadly consequences. You can never tell how STUBBORN even intelligent players will get.

One way to get out is to give unequical descriptions of what is happening. So for ex, if the thing becomes immune to longswords make sure you say something like "The longsword hits it but does no damage."

If the players are still clueless don't be shy of nudging them in the right direction with a good old NPC who says stuff "Beware the beast. That which does not kill it makes it stronger.

Also, be prepared to give the players outs. As the beast gains in immunities, it becomes harder to kill so let the player at least have the option of running away.

Lastly, give them a permanent way to destroy the beast...and a way to find out how to destroy it...something appropriate like burning it in the fires of Gehenna, feeding it to the Tarrasque, etc...

Demons_eye
2009-06-09, 01:28 PM
Thanks every one & I am planing to use the building up DR, but I wanted to know if anyone has got comman animal stats that I can level with the PC's? Or should I just use an animal and refluff it? Or start with one and keep adding templates? Really what should I use as the base?

RelentlessImp
2009-06-09, 01:35 PM
Thanks every one & I am planing to use the building up DR, but I wanted to know if anyone has got comman animal stats that I can level with the PC's? Or should I just use an animal and refluff it? Or start with one and keep adding templates? Really what should I use as the base?

A crab (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3214722&postcount=1). XD

JellyPooga
2009-06-09, 01:37 PM
That depends on the level of the PCs and what sort of feel you want.

An abominable corruption of something natural (as created by a mad ex-druid perhaps) could be represented by a Bear; 1st encounter make it Black Bear stats, then Grizzly, then Dire, perhaps.

If you want it to be more "there's a monster in the cave eating our babies", then something like an Ogre perhaps. If that's too tame, a Grey Render could give a similar feel.

An aberration like an Otyugh could make it's immunity ability easier to explain; it's just what particularly powerful versions of it's kind are like (and could lead on to a whole quest to find the source of that particular creature type to destroy it).

That's just a couple of ideas for you :smallwink:

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-06-09, 01:39 PM
Thanks every one & I am planing to use the building up DR, but I wanted to know if anyone has got comman animal stats that I can level with the PC's? Or should I just use an animal and refluff it? Or start with one and keep adding templates? Really what should I use as the base?

Animals are easy to keep improving. For ex, you can go from black bear (CR 2, 3 HD) to brown bear (CR 4, 6 HD) to dire bear (CR 7, 12 HD) to legendary animal (CR 9, 20 HD). They're all in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm)

As for templates, fiendish (or celestial) gives you SR, intelligence and some other small benefits and might fit your fluff for the creature.

paddyfool
2009-06-09, 01:55 PM
A construct or aberration would seem to fit this best. You'd want a tally sheet with damage type across the top and a DR listing by each row. Along these lines, perhaps:

DR F C Ac E So Sl B P St Si M Ad W

1
3
5
10
15
20
30
50
Imm

(F=Fire, C=Cold, etc.; and I should really work out how to use tables).

Make sure to leave plenty of room for damage types you may not have considered, and to consider how it should respond to status effects (I would suggest a slow recovery from pretty much any status effect the first time, a fast recovery the second time, and an immunity the third time).

As a nasty little mechanic, you could maybe give it the ability to acquire spell resistance too...

Cedrass
2009-06-09, 03:36 PM
As a nasty little mechanic, you could maybe give it the ability to acquire spell resistance too...

Or spell-like abilities if a player casts a spell too often on him! The look on the mage's face when he sees the bear casting Lightning Bolt :smalltongue:

Thrawn183
2009-06-09, 03:48 PM
Something important to decide is whether or not it gains resistance in fight or between them. If it's in the fight itself, you could have serious problems if only 1 or 2 characters is really able to do damage. The thing would end up invincible (or close) to them and everybody else would stand back inspiring courage or something.

Flickerdart
2009-06-09, 03:49 PM
Or spell-like abilities if a player casts a spell too often on him! The look on the mage's face when he sees the bear casting Lightning Bolt :smalltongue:
But make that reduce its resistances to that spell, in this case saves against Evocations and electricity damage, by the same amount it got them increased when it was hit.

Haven
2009-06-09, 03:59 PM
I really like this idea. I think it would make for a great side quest where the PCs encounter the thing in a series of three times; the first fight they barely escape with their lives (something distracts it, or it's impeded by terrain), the second fight is either slightly harder or a little closer, and the third fight is the toughest but they eventually win. I don't think you would need to give it "extra lives", though; I just think that it'd be better to make it a narrow escape rather than killing it knowing it'll come back to life, as it creates a stronger impression on the players. Killing it, even temporarily, would reduce some of the anxiety it creates, while an escape is harrowing, knowing its still out there.

Something else you need to consider: what would happen if the players used a spell that affected the environment around the monster? For instance, casting "stone shape" while inside a cavern and dropping a hole in it? Or casting Wall of Iron to block its way? Would it gain some sort of power to compensate for that, or would its inability to compensate for its environment be its Achilles' heel?

Either way, in between battles the players should do some sort of research to figure out what its origins are and how to effectively beat it. If it's an intelligent monster, maybe they can find out something from its past or a quirk of its personality they can use against it. (Though maybe this thought just comes from watching too much Buffy :P)

Also, if it ever becomes immune to fire (as I imagine it would rather quickly), in the battle afterwards it should totally light itself on fire to attack the PCs. It would certainly create a memorable battle, and nothing says "oh shi-" like seeing that guy you're attacking is on fire.

Something else you might want to consider--did the monster just gain this ability? If not, then it's had this power for a while, in which case, is there anything it's immune to the first time the PCs encounter it? Or does its immunity wear off after a certain point?

To conclude: if you want to see more examples of how this has been done before, maybe find some ideas for the encounter, here's the TVTropes article (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VivaLaEvolution).

JellyPooga
2009-06-09, 04:36 PM
I was just thinking that one way you could have it die and come back to life is to have it 'spawn' upon death. It would also give credence to it's increasing resistances if you made the resistance only increase after it has died (rather than during battle); as in the spawned creature has 'learned' what killed the parent so develops resistance.

Your blade sinks deep into the creatures flesh, felling the mighty beast with a gout of unnatural greenish-blue blood. Breathing heavily, you clean and sheathe your weapons, thankful that you can rest after so hard a won fight. Suddenly a slight movement catches your eye. Looking back to the corpse of your foe, you notice its chest pulsing slighty. It's not breath, it looks more like something moving beneath the skin. Before you have a chance to react, whatever it is bursts forth from the corpse with a piercing scream. It looks familiar and you are horrified to realise that it is a smaller version of the creature you just killed. Too stunned to react immediately, you can only watch as it sniffs the air before it dives into the ground, burrowing away from danger.

The sub-quest could then be finding a way to either imprison the creature indefinitely or to stop it from spawning.

lesser_minion
2009-06-09, 04:53 PM
It's quite an interesting concept.

I agree that having it adapt instantly is too much - instead have the adaptation take place after the encounter or the creature's death.

You could replace immunities by regeneration of injuries from X, Y and Z. Create a new mechanic for recovering rapidly from nondamaging attack spells.

It might be clearer if the creature rapidly shrugs off anything that has failed to kill it in the past (something closer to actual immunities), rather than be completely unaffected.

The most important thing is to apply the 3-clue rule to the mystery - make sure that there are clues aside from combat experience that can tell the players what is going on.

JellyPooga
2009-06-09, 05:15 PM
You could replace immunities by regeneration of injuries from X, Y and Z. Create a new mechanic for recovering rapidly from nondamaging attack spells.

Now that's an interesting idea...much like it'd be easier to denote DR vs. X, you could give it Regeneration that instead of being beaten by x, y or z is not beaten by things that harm it. E.g. It has Regen 5 at the start and everything deals lethal. Once it's been hit by a warhammer, bludgeoning weapons are struck from the list of things that deal lethal. Not sure how to incorporate a method of progressive regeneration though; perhaps simply have the Regeneration value increase the more you hit it with a particular weapon type...I dunno though, I'll have to have a think on this one.

Oh and if you didn't want to use the blatant Alien Chest-burster rip-off to spawn you could also try one of the following:

-Corpse dissolves into a puddle of goo, leaving behind a small egg-like thing that swiftly hatches.

-Corpse produces some kind of air-borne seed or spore that floats away on the wind

-Corpse forms a chrysalis and undergoes a 'butterfly transformation'

-Corpse bursts into flames, leaving behind a miniature version of itself/an egg (pheonix style)

-A particular part of the corpse (a horn or tusk perhaps, maybe it's cyclopean gem-like eye or its heart) becomes the seed/egg/focus of regeneration for the new-born

d13
2009-06-09, 05:18 PM
OK, then maybe you can do something like...

If it is hit by a Longsword, it becomes immune to Longswords, but then, when a Fireball hits it, it becomes immune to fire but loses immunity to Longswords...

Or cap the "number" of immunities it may have... When it is hit by the X + 1 different thing (X being all different), it loses the first immunity, gains the new one and "pushes" the rest downside...


Just my 2 cp, without readin' the whole topic xD

Demons_eye
2009-06-09, 05:27 PM
In my game the wizard guild rules everything. The three islands that surround it are the beast island, the solider island and the tech island. Part of the evil/powerful old families have a lab in tech Island that they did experiments on people of the 3 islands. A bet was made who could make the most indestructible fighter a solider a beast or a robot. One of these are, the hard to kill monster (anyone got a better name?), So after the battle ends they grab the body and make it better.

So it only get better in the mean time and will have a "cool down time" before they let it lose.

goken04
2009-06-09, 10:49 PM
anyone got a better name?

Doomsday?

P.S. I'm stealing this idea.

Pandaren
2009-06-09, 10:54 PM
On the case of magic, you coud take the example of the Infernal (which is in fact an epic creature, I mean this ability is being used on an epic creature, like, seriously) when a spell is used onn it, it becomes immune to that spell, but only from that caster. It helps prevent one-spell-happy casters. It can also be mixed with the DR system.

Flickerdart
2009-06-09, 10:57 PM
This thing is truly worthy of being called...the Inevitable.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-06-09, 11:09 PM
For the Idea of this game the PC's would have to fight the bad guys ect.... BUT as a side plot, maybe even the real plot, they fight this beast that makes the saying what does not kill you makes you stronger to the next level...


In my game the wizard guild rules everything. The three islands that surround it are the beast island, the solider island and the tech island. Part of the evil/powerful old families have a lab in tech Island that they did experiments on people of the 3 islands. A bet was made who could make the most indestructible fighter a solider a beast or a robot. One of these are, the hard to kill monster (anyone got a better name?), So after the battle ends they grab the body and make it better.

So it only get better in the mean time and will have a "cool down time" before they let it lose.

Sounds like you the making of a very cool main plot...or it will be once the PCs find out that one of the wizard guild families is creating the-terminator-beast that keeps attacking then.

All you need is the reason why wizards keep sending the-terminator-beast against the PCs.

Maybe they're trying keep on of the PCs from fulfilling a prophecy...cliched but it grosses millions.

Necrus Philius
2009-06-10, 12:52 AM
The monster I'd use would just be a lich or wizard who keeps coming back for more and prepares spells as necessary depending on how he was defeated the first time.

No save spells brings him down? He prepares more SR items. He was shot down? Wind wall, Sneak attack gib? Contingency. He'd probably be the easiest to pull off as you can reasonably make him immune to certain types of damage from spells alone. Otherwise I'd just special make an imp because it would be funny in the same vein of hctib elttil from looking for group.