PDA

View Full Version : Counterspelling; Not As Sub-Optimal As You Think!



Crow
2009-06-09, 02:14 PM
...In the right circumstances.

Our group just finished up a pretty big campaign. Though it wasn't epic, we did end up dinging after the final batte, putting us at 21. The group was mostly level 19 and 20. This group had some difficulties due to it's composition. We had a Swashbuckler-Rogue, a straight Fighter, a Monk, and a Ninja! Yep, you heard me right. And I was playing a Battle Sorcerer.

As the group's only arcane spellcaster, er...spellcaster, period. As the group's only spellcaster, as the levels got higher, I ended up doing a lot less "Battle" and a lot more "Sorcerer". Also, as the enemies gained far more devastating special abilities, it became apparent that something was needed to even things out.

Now a while ago, I had picked up Heighten Spell, to make my lower level save-or-sucks remain useful into higher levels. Everyone knows already how useful this feat is when paired with Improved Counterspell for sorcerers, but I don't think a lot of people have actually used it in a campaign. Of course, I still had to use Dispel Magic (Greater) when dealing with maximum-level spells, but oh well.

(I know there are spells that allow you to counterspell as a free action without having to ready, but this character was SRD-only <self-imposed>)

While readying actions to counterspell may sound dull and boring, I found it to be quite enjoyable. I got to hang back and "manage" the battle. While the group focused on taking out the bad guys with the biggest mojo, I made sure buffs were down (and our group's stayed up), and was the final arbiter on which spells were allowed to run their course (of course I could only do this once per round!). One particularly humorous (and in hindsight, childish) action on my part occurred when the Swashbuckler berated me for "Not doing anything this entire battle.". Nevermind that I had shot down an Implosion spell, a Dominate Person, and some area-effect fire spell in the battle already. So when he got targeted by a Power Word: Stun, I just let it slide on by. "Whoops!" He never accused his only spellcasting ally of lazyness again. :smallwink:

So, long story short. Counterspelling is great for a Sorcerer, and could possibly be one of the best things you can do for your party in some situations. I know that as a strategy it gets knocked around on here quite a bit, but to those people, I say try it in an actual campaign. You will be pleasantly surprised.

Ravens_cry
2009-06-09, 02:44 PM
You were been Batman, at least how the Batman wizard is supposed to be played, even though you were a Sorcerer. You weren't hogging the glory, you weren't making the other players feel useless, you were putting on the lock down so the others can use use their sharp implements to carve up your enemies to greater effectiveness.:smallsmile:

Justin B.
2009-06-09, 02:44 PM
That's very cool, I'm glad it worked out for you. Now wonder how it would have gone had you used Battlemagic Perception to optimize it a bit.

I've always had a soft-spot for shutting down casters, and abjuration in general.

quick_comment
2009-06-09, 02:47 PM
I know its suboptimal, but Ive always like reactive counterspell. It lets you waste your next turn to counterspell without readying an action.

Yes, reactive counterspell + celerity is broken, but that celerity's fault.l

Sinfire Titan
2009-06-09, 03:02 PM
...Except Evocation and any DD spell in the book is much more efficient at Counterspelling than the normal method, you are correct.

Why? A single CL 11th Scorching Ray forces 3 Concentration checks (DC 15+1/2damage+Spell level) or the spell is lost. A readied action can force an average DC of 32 for a 9th level spell. A 2nd level spell slot forces 3 DC 30 Concentration checks (this isn't much, but that's assuming each ray is only dealing average damage, which is only 14 points). Add in the right metamagic needed to make this efficient, and you have about a 4th level spell. Empower makes it so much more effective (and Searing Spell is a must for Scorching Ray focus).

But that's just Scorching Ray. Let's look at the rest of the DD spells out there. Note: All Concentration DCs are for 9th level spells.


Defenestrating Sphere (Spell Compendium): Ok, let me make one thing abundantly clear. This spell is not effective against targets bigger than Large. That said, this spell deals 3d6 base, and forces a Fort save or the victim is flung 1d8x10ft into the air. Maximized, this is a 7th level spell that deals 18 base damage, then throws the target 180ft into the air for another 17d6 points of damage. The target needs to make 3 Concentration checks (1 for taking damage, one for violent motion, and one for taking falling damage) or lose the spell slot. The first one is 37 if Maximized (Empowered is better though), no problem for an optimized caster. The second save is the same as the Sphere's Fort save. The third save is an average of 87. Effectively, this spell requires a Fort save or they lose the spell slot no matter what. A DC 87 check requires heavy focus on the Concentration skill. And they have to repeat the Fort save every round, because you can control the spell as a move action for 1 round per caster level.

Rainbow Beam: Ok, fruity spell. 5d12 at 18th level. No save, Ranged Touch spell. It's also a random energy type, chosen from a list of 7 types (Fire, Acid, Electricity, Poison, Cold, Sonic, and Force). An average hit from this spell deals 32.5 damage, give or take. That's a DC 51 Concentration check, and the energy damage is difficult to resist (they need 5 castings of Energy immunity, and some method of Force immunity in order to only take damage 1 in 8 castings, but that still leaves the poison damage). Oh, and they are Dazzled for one minute. This is a 2nd level spell.

Ray of Light: No damage, but it blinds them for 1d4 rounds automatically if it hits. Blind creatures can't use spells that designate a target, as they need line of sight to target a creature.

Rebuke: Yes kids, Enchantment can counter spells too! This spell forces a save or be Dazed against a single target. Dazing them mid-casting makes them lose their action and forces them to stop casting the spell. Grants a Concentration check to prevent spell loss for 1 round per CL, DC equal to the Will DC+level of the spell being cast. An optimized Enchanter can get that DC up to around 40 or so.

Orb of X: Classic! Up to 10d6 damage, and a save or they take a side effect. Average DC is 54.

Disintegrate: Need I even say why this spell is the game winner for Counterspelling? Empowered, it's up to 60d6 damage. Fort save or lose whatever spell they were going to cast, no matter what. Even if they make the save, they still need an average of 36 to keep their spell slot. A failed save's average DC is 159 for a 9th level spell.





Do you see what I'm getting at here? When it comes to counterspelling, the best way to do it is DD. At least then you are doing something useful with each spell you counter, and you can counter multiple spells/round if you use the right spells.

tbarrie
2009-06-09, 03:03 PM
...In the right circumstances.
Now a while ago, I had picked up Heighten Spell, to make my lower level save-or-sucks remain useful into higher levels. Everyone knows already how useful this feat is when paired with Improved Counterspell for sorcerers, but I don't think a lot of people have actually used it in a campaign. Of course, I still had to use Dispel Magic (Greater) when dealing with maximum-level spells, but oh well.


Can a sorceror use Heightened Spell when counterspelling? I would have thought the rule that sorcerors always need to spend at least a full round to use a metamagic spell would make this impossible.

Melamoto
2009-06-09, 03:22 PM
Can a sorceror use Heightened Spell when counterspelling? I would have thought the rule that sorcerors always need to spend at least a full round to use a metamagic spell would make this impossible.

Same here, but it would be easy to simply add Accelerate Metamagic to Heighten, since it will be the most used Metamagic in this case.

quick_comment
2009-06-09, 03:39 PM
Same here, but it would be easy to simply add Accelerate Metamagic to Heighten, since it will be the most used Metamagic in this case.

Or take rapid metamagic and get accelerate for all metamagic.

Lord_Drayakir
2009-06-09, 03:46 PM
Hey, you can also take the Archmage class, and make it so that whenever you counter a spell, it'll bounce back at the guy who threw it. :smallbiggrin:

Yora
2009-06-09, 03:55 PM
I really hate it that every time someone said "Hey, I had fun!", at least ten other people come and have to say "That's so under-optimized! You should do it the right way, which is my way!" and list a lot of non core stuff most normal players have never heard off. :smallbiggrin:

lesser_minion
2009-06-09, 03:56 PM
My impression was that counterspelling is supposed to be suboptimal for wizards - sorcerer counterspellers can be extremely effective, as your experience appears to show.

The description of counterspelling in the SRD merely says that you must cast the appropriate spell, but I think the general usage in play is that the readied action is enough and you need only expend the spell.

Justin B.
2009-06-09, 04:01 PM
...Except Evocation and any DD spell in the book is much more efficient at Counterspelling than the normal method, you are correct.

Why? A single CL 11th Scorching Ray forces 3 Concentration checks (DC 15+1/2damage+Spell level) or the spell is lost. A readied action can force an average DC of 32 for a 9th level spell. A 2nd level spell slot forces 3 DC 30 Concentration checks (this isn't much, but that's assuming each ray is only dealing average damage, which is only 14 points). Add in the right metamagic needed to make this efficient, and you have about a 4th level spell. Empower makes it so much more effective (and Searing Spell is a must for Scorching Ray focus).

But that's just Scorching Ray. Let's look at the rest of the DD spells out there. Note: All Concentration DCs are for 9th level spells.


Defenestrating Sphere (Spell Compendium): Ok, let me make one thing abundantly clear. This spell is not effective against targets bigger than Large. That said, this spell deals 3d6 base, and forces a Fort save or the victim is flung 1d8x10ft into the air. Maximized, this is a 7th level spell that deals 18 base damage, then throws the target 180ft into the air for another 17d6 points of damage. The target needs to make 3 Concentration checks (1 for taking damage, one for violent motion, and one for taking falling damage) or lose the spell slot. The first one is 37 if Maximized (Empowered is better though), no problem for an optimized caster. The second save is the same as the Sphere's Fort save. The third save is an average of 87. Effectively, this spell requires a Fort save or they lose the spell slot no matter what. A DC 87 check requires heavy focus on the Concentration skill. And they have to repeat the Fort save every round, because you can control the spell as a move action for 1 round per caster level.

Rainbow Beam: Ok, fruity spell. 5d12 at 18th level. No save, Ranged Touch spell. It's also a random energy type, chosen from a list of 7 types (Fire, Acid, Electricity, Poison, Cold, Sonic, and Force). An average hit from this spell deals 32.5 damage, give or take. That's a DC 51 Concentration check, and the energy damage is difficult to resist (they need 5 castings of Energy immunity, and some method of Force immunity in order to only take damage 1 in 8 castings, but that still leaves the poison damage). Oh, and they are Dazzled for one minute. This is a 2nd level spell.

Ray of Light: No damage, but it blinds them for 1d4 rounds automatically if it hits. Blind creatures can't use spells that designate a target, as they need line of sight to target a creature.

Rebuke: Yes kids, Enchantment can counter spells too! This spell forces a save or be Dazed against a single target. Dazing them mid-casting makes them lose their action and forces them to stop casting the spell. Grants a Concentration check to prevent spell loss for 1 round per CL, DC equal to the Will DC+level of the spell being cast. An optimized Enchanter can get that DC up to around 40 or so.

Orb of X: Classic! Up to 10d6 damage, and a save or they take a side effect. Average DC is 54.

Disintegrate: Need I even say why this spell is the game winner for Counterspelling? Empowered, it's up to 60d6 damage. Fort save or lose whatever spell they were going to cast, no matter what. Even if they make the save, they still need an average of 36 to keep their spell slot. A failed save's average DC is 159 for a 9th level spell.





Do you see what I'm getting at here? When it comes to counterspelling, the best way to do it is DD. At least then you are doing something useful with each spell you counter, and you can counter multiple spells/round if you use the right spells.

These are all great ideas, except for when you're facing casters that use readied actions or quickened, or instant SLA's and things like that that can just go off before you can even cast your spell. What if they have defenses set up to block your spells. What if they're immune to the type of damage you have?

With a counterspell, their spell leaves their control, and then you end it. It bypasses all of those things above that I mentioned by virtue of targetting the spell itself, rather than just the caster, who, as mentioned, could have a multitude of defenses, including an touch AC you just can't hope to hit.

ZeroNumerous
2009-06-09, 04:04 PM
These are all great ideas, except for when you're facing casters that use readied actions or quickened, or instant SLA's and things like that that can just go off before you can even cast your spell.

Readied actions always interrupt the action they're readied against. Even a Quickened Whatever still triggers a readied action.

Doug Lampert
2009-06-09, 04:15 PM
These are all great ideas, except for when you're facing casters that use readied actions or quickened, or instant SLA's and things like that that can just go off before you can even cast your spell. What if they have defenses set up to block your spells. What if they're immune to the type of damage you have?
What if they have a concentration skill? He was forcing DC 30-32 checks on level 9 spells and claiming it blocks them.

Level 18 caster, 21 ranks of concentration, +4 for Con. I need to roll a 5-7, assuming I haven't taken the quite useful Skill Focus Concentration, or bought a +6 Con item rather than a +4 or bought a manual or used some wishes (level 18 caster, this is a big set of assumptions) or gotten an item of + to concentration.

In fact it's fairly easy for DC 32 to be automatic, makes it on a roll of 1 (skill checks don't autofail) for someone throwing arround level 9 spells.

And this all assumes that the level 18 or so caster hasn't displaced, hasn't mirror imaged, and hasn't done anything else to give a miss chance.

Optimystik
2009-06-09, 04:27 PM
I really hate it that every time someone said "Hey, I had fun!", at least ten other people come and have to say "That's so under-optimized! You should do it the right way, which is my way!" and list a lot of non core stuff most normal players have never heard off. :smallbiggrin:

Hate is such a strong word. Myself, I value the posts that say "your way worked, but this would work even better." More perspectives = more knowledge = more options, and if everyone can play the game well then everyone wins.

Sinfire Titan
2009-06-09, 05:43 PM
I really hate it that every time someone said "Hey, I had fun!", at least ten other people come and have to say "That's so under-optimized! You should do it the right way, which is my way!" and list a lot of non core stuff most normal players have never heard off. :smallbiggrin:

I know what I'm talking about more often than not. Disprove my statement, and I'll back down.


These are all great ideas, except for when you're facing casters that use readied actions or quickened, or instant SLA's and things like that that can just go off before you can even cast your spell. What if they have defenses set up to block your spells. What if they're immune to the type of damage you have?

With a counterspell, their spell leaves their control, and then you end it. It bypasses all of those things above that I mentioned by virtue of targetting the spell itself, rather than just the caster, who, as mentioned, could have a multitude of defenses, including an touch AC you just can't hope to hit.

If your readied action is for "When they start casting a spell", even Immediate action spells trigger it. And I've yet to see a caster have a defense against Maw of Chaos without being Shapechanged into a Chaotic outsider.

There's also the problem of Force damage being nigh unstoppable. I can only think of one spell that stops Force effects, and that spell only applies to MM and the like (Shield). Unless casters can Shapechange into a Force Dragon pre-Epic through some means I am unaware.



What if they have a concentration skill? He was forcing DC 30-32 checks on level 9 spells and claiming it blocks them.

Level 18 caster, 21 ranks of concentration, +4 for Con. I need to roll a 5-7, assuming I haven't taken the quite useful Skill Focus Concentration, or bought a +6 Con item rather than a +4 or bought a manual or used some wishes (level 18 caster, this is a big set of assumptions) or gotten an item of + to concentration.

In fact it's fairly easy for DC 32 to be automatic, makes it on a roll of 1 (skill checks don't autofail) for someone throwing arround level 9 spells.

And this all assumes that the level 18 or so caster hasn't displaced, hasn't mirror imaged, and hasn't done anything else to give a miss chance.


Yes, but that was for a really low-level spell. Defenstraiting Sphere proved the point nicely. Unless they've buffed their Fort saves, they need to save every round against that effect, and it never requires an attack roll.

For the casters who do have those defenses up, there's always one of the following: Sphere of Ultimate Destruction, Reality Maelstrom (to make them waste actions or to just end the encounter outright), anything that deals Force damage (Vortex of Fangs, I believe is the spell's name? And Wings of Flurry), anything that blocks LoE (Wall of Stone, Wings of Cover), and a number of other methods. A personal favorite is Maw of Chaos. If they are in the radius, they take CLd6 worth of damage, no save, every round. Immediately afterwards is Celerity+Arcane Fusion to hit them with a double-whammy.

Concentration may be an easy skill to boost, but a smart caster is going to have around a +35-+40 check. DCs in the mid 50s can provide a wonderful alternative

Again, I'm just saying there's always a better way to be a counterspeller. Dispel Magic doesn't always cut it (especially if they boost their CL, as even Greater Dispel has a CL cap), but DD can get the job done.

Seatbelt
2009-06-09, 05:54 PM
What about SR? The wizard you're 'counterspelling' may be more or less immune to your magics.

d13
2009-06-09, 06:07 PM
Two posts of a lot of /blaaaaaah

Dude... The OP beats every optimization trick you may found under a crapload of books with just one sentence.



While readying actions to counterspell may sound dull and boring, I found it to be quite enjoyable.

Just for clarification:



While readying actions to counterspell may sound dull and boring, I found it to be quite enjoyable.

Enjoying a not-really-optimal character beats, by LARGE, any optimization trick known and/or unknown.

Sinfire Titan
2009-06-09, 06:21 PM
Dude... The OP beats every optimization trick you may found under a crapload of books with just one sentence.



Just for clarification:



Enjoying a not-really-optimal character beats, by LARGE, any optimization trick known and/or unknown.

Is it my fault I like making things explode instead of using the normal method of counterspelling?

Quietus
2009-06-09, 06:34 PM
Is it my fault I like making things explode instead of using the normal method of counterspelling?

And yet, it's entirely possible to bypass concentration checks - custom items for Concentration are *never* a bad idea. Ranks + stat + custom item + miscellaneous other things can let you very easily break 30, or even 50 depending on the item, without rolling. Alternatively, they can have spells up that reduce the damage you can do. This is even more noteworthy in SRD-only, which is what the OP was playing under as a self-imposed limitation, because the few no-save damage spells you're using to "counter" with, they can throw up Spell Immunity to. Immunity to Disintegrate, again, is *never* a bad idea.

As for anything that involves targeting them, as noted before, there's miss chances. They throw up a Mirror Image, and you now have to be within Close range if you have True Seeing up to see which is real. Whereas they can lob spells from Long range. You can start tossing area effects, sure, but those are entirely elemental-damage based, with the exception of Horrid Wilting (also not a bad choice for Immunity). Then there's the possibilty of SR, there's saves, there's plenty of ways to defend against simple damage. There's no real way to defend against a dedicated counterspeller, and if they happen to have Archmage Mastery of Counterspelling, they do in fact become a *very* dangerous individual indeed.

Nohwl
2009-06-09, 07:01 PM
Is it my fault I like making things explode instead of using the normal method of counterspelling?

if you take divine defiance, you can do both. it makes counterspelling an immediate action.

shadow_archmagi
2009-06-09, 07:15 PM
I find the counterspelling works best if you do it nonchalantly. "Fireballs? How DREARY."

Lapak
2009-06-09, 07:27 PM
I know what I'm talking about more often than not. Disprove my statement, and I'll back down.You kind of missed the point of his objection. The OP enjoyed what he was doing, and said so. You came in and, more or less, said 'you're doing it wrong.'

- He was successful.
- He had a good time.

The original poster was doing things very right. It's not an issue if you see a different way, or a way you consider to be better; he was successful and had a good time, and wanted to share that.

LibraryOgre
2009-06-09, 07:37 PM
One place where Counterspelling excels is large-scale battles with lower-level troops. That fireball that you shrug off because you've got reflex saves in high double digits, and hit points in the high triples? It utterly destroys those 3rd level warriors who are grinding the goblins for you, even if they make the saves.

kjones
2009-06-09, 07:46 PM
I find the counterspelling works best if you do it nonchalantly. "Fireballs? How DREARY."

This. Counterspelling is a little-used tactic for a reason, but one should always be aware of the options at one's disposal.

Speaking specifically as a DM, it can really throw your players for a loop - chances are they won't realize what's happening for at least a round or two, and it's a good way to mess with the wizard who thinks he's ready for anything.


One place where Counterspelling excels is large-scale battles with lower-level troops. That fireball that you shrug off because you've got reflex saves in high double digits, and hit points in the high triples? It utterly destroys those 3rd level warriors who are grinding the goblins for you, even if they make the saves.


Forgot about this trick - I've used this before as well.

quick_comment
2009-06-09, 07:46 PM
Reality Maelstrom (to make them waste actions or to just end the encounter outright)

Also a great way to kill your entire party

Myrmex
2009-06-10, 01:34 AM
I know what I'm talking about more often than not. Disprove my statement, and I'll back down.



If your readied action is for "When they start casting a spell", even Immediate action spells trigger it. And I've yet to see a caster have a defense against Maw of Chaos without being Shapechanged into a Chaotic outsider.

There's also the problem of Force damage being nigh unstoppable. I can only think of one spell that stops Force effects, and that spell only applies to MM and the like (Shield). Unless casters can Shapechange into a Force Dragon pre-Epic through some means I am unaware.




Yes, but that was for a really low-level spell. Defenstraiting Sphere proved the point nicely. Unless they've buffed their Fort saves, they need to save every round against that effect, and it never requires an attack roll.

For the casters who do have those defenses up, there's always one of the following: Sphere of Ultimate Destruction, Reality Maelstrom (to make them waste actions or to just end the encounter outright), anything that deals Force damage (Vortex of Fangs, I believe is the spell's name? And Wings of Flurry), anything that blocks LoE (Wall of Stone, Wings of Cover), and a number of other methods. A personal favorite is Maw of Chaos. If they are in the radius, they take CLd6 worth of damage, no save, every round. Immediately afterwards is Celerity+Arcane Fusion to hit them with a double-whammy.

Concentration may be an easy skill to boost, but a smart caster is going to have around a +35-+40 check. DCs in the mid 50s can provide a wonderful alternative

Again, I'm just saying there's always a better way to be a counterspeller. Dispel Magic doesn't always cut it (especially if they boost their CL, as even Greater Dispel has a CL cap), but DD can get the job done.

This was an SRD only character, though. None of those options are really relevant.

d13
2009-06-10, 10:58 AM
Is it my fault I like making things explode instead of using the normal method of counterspelling?

I never said that.
I was pointing at the fact that it seems like you are disregarding his play method (which caused him to have fun... The point behind D&D and every other game, I believe xD) because you have fun with a different one.

The fact that you like playing rugby does not mean that people that like playing football are doing something wrong.