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Zergrusheddie
2009-06-09, 09:31 PM
Reading through the Complete Arcane today, I came across the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. I remember reading that this class is extremely difficult to kill but reading through it I am unable to see why they are so tough. Anyone care to enlighten me?

Best of luck
-Eddie

quick_comment
2009-06-09, 09:33 PM
They can, as an immediate action, raise a shield that can block just about anything.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-09, 09:36 PM
IIRC, the Veils are immediate actions to raise, meaning you get to say no-save, just die to any enemy dumb enough to attack you in melee by raising the Violet veil. You can tailor your defenses to the attack, too, which makes things considerably easier by, say, using the otherwise worthless red veil when the DM gets fed up with your 'Immune to YES' defenses and tosses a Hulking Hurler at you.

Zergrusheddie
2009-06-09, 09:43 PM
How long do the Wards last? They say class level and some different veils say Initiate level. Does that mean that you if you a Wizard 9/IOTS7 7 it would last for 16 minutes?

Eldariel
2009-06-09, 09:44 PM
IIRC, the Veils are immediate actions to raise, meaning you get to say no-save, just die to any enemy dumb enough to attack you in melee by raising the Violet veil. You can tailor your defenses to the attack, too, which makes things considerably easier by, say, using the otherwise worthless red veil when the DM gets fed up with your 'Immune to YES' defenses and tosses a Hulking Hurler at you.

And once you can raise dual warding, it tends to take two spells to break your defenses (two specific spells, mind you) and then a third one to get to you. Martial types, of course, are totally boned.

EDIT: Class-level and Initiate-level both refer to your level in IotSFV.

Recaiden
2009-06-09, 09:49 PM
Because you can raise a veil as an immediate action, it lasts for 1 min/level. At level seven, if anyone attacks you, save or die and save or be on another plane. And good luck if you're undead or a construct. Ranged weapons can't break a violet veil, and they may not have the spells prepared to take down whatever veil you have. Plus unimpeachable abjuration and greater spell focus in abjuration means the DC to dispel the violet is pretty tough. Now, that's only at higher levels that it's especially difficult, but it still aplies on as smaller scale.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-09, 09:55 PM
Yeah, the first 4 defenses are pretty situational. Stopping all mental attacks is essentially Mind Blank on command. # 6 and 7 are just evil.

BRC
2009-06-09, 09:56 PM
Imagine the following situation. You are playing a card game against a person. The only difference is, they get to pick which rules are being used, and can change said rules at any time, such as after you put down your cards, but they havn't yet put down theres. Also, every time you lose a hand, they smack you in the face with a baseball bat.

THAT is what fighting an IotSfV is like.

Doc Roc
2009-06-09, 09:56 PM
(On the boning of melee types)


Other than really well-built shadow pouncers, but you probably have abrupt jaunt if you can, as well. About the only reliable way to deal with an Io7V is a charger wrapped in an AMF applied using invisible spell and false theurgy.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-09, 09:58 PM
Other than really well-built shadow pouncers, but you probably have abrupt jaunt if you can, as well. About the only reliable way to deal with an Io7V is a charger wrapped in an AMF applied using invisible spell and false theurgy.AMF does not afect an IotSFV, thanks to the veils being based on Prismatic Wall.

Eldariel
2009-06-09, 10:03 PM
Other than really well-built shadow pouncers, but you probably have abrupt jaunt if you can, as well. About the only reliable way to deal with an Io7V is a charger wrapped in an AMF applied using invisible spell and false theurgy.

And chances are he still has Permanencied Arcane Sight online and thus knows you're approaching with a Moderate Abjuration, raises a Veil that blocks AMF's LoE and profits.

And since he's a Wizard, chances are he's got Anticipate Teleport too, another reason Shadow Pouncer will have serious trouble ever getting to him.

Nohwl
2009-06-09, 10:06 PM
Other than really well-built shadow pouncers, but you probably have abrupt jaunt if you can, as well. About the only reliable way to deal with an Io7V is a charger wrapped in an AMF applied using invisible spell and false theurgy.

amf is an invisible barrier. what are you using invisible spell for?

Doc Roc
2009-06-09, 10:15 PM
The precise text is:

"These veils duplicate the layers of a prismatic wall and
are described below. An initiate’s caster level for these veils
is equal to her arcane spellcaster level."

Which would lead me to suspect it duplicates only the effects of the individual layers, and otherwise follows the descriptions of the warding's mechanics. I understand this is an extremely unpopular view.

I am using the eccentric read of Invisible spell which says that it in fact masks all visible effects of the spell. This would include auras, under this reading.

False Theurgy prevents them from successfully discerning its nature with a spellcraft check.

Fuzzy_Juan
2009-06-09, 10:24 PM
I have never been partial to classes based on abilities you get limited uses per day of some power, however, once you get up in ranks of Iot7FV it does get pretty useful to have multiple immediate wards avialible.

Some classes you don't understand unless you play test them. Try out an initiate in combat and see how they do. You may suddenly realize that yes...they are indeed a pain in the ass.

Eldariel
2009-06-09, 10:35 PM
The precise text is:

"These veils duplicate the layers of a prismatic wall and
are described below. An initiate’s caster level for these veils
is equal to her arcane spellcaster level."

Which would lead me to suspect it duplicates only the effects of the individual layers, and otherwise follows the descriptions of the warding's mechanics. I understand this is an extremely unpopular view.

I am using the eccentric read of Invisible spell which says that it in fact masks all visible effects of the spell. This would include auras, under this reading.

False Theurgy prevents them from successfully discerning its nature with a spellcraft check.

Meh, Indigo Veil specifically states: "This spell blocks the passage of all spells and spell-like abilities" so even if nothing else works, it should still block AMF IMHO.

I'll have to say, that's a reading of Invisible Spell I've never encountered before (mostly because of how it states that Detect Magic & co. can be used to even see the normal visual manifestation of the spell at the moment of casting; seems to imply they'd be completely unaffected by the feat). But yeah, even then, it'd be pretty foolish for the Initiate to wait until the Charger has reached him to raise this Veils, especially if he knows that it's possible to mask AMF so that he cannot detect it.


But yeah, I guess we can agree that it's insanely difficult to kill an Initiate just 'cause immediate action "you need two spells to touch me"-defenses are pretty good.

Doc Roc
2009-06-09, 10:40 PM
Oh God, very very tough to kill an Io7V. Never suggested it was easy.

The issue is that blocks spells and effects, sure, but the em. of a AMF touches it, well, it's a supernatural\spell-like ability and goes down.

AMF needs to be strong. Really, truly, needs to be strong. Anything that weakens it or any reading that weakens it is probably bad news.

Nohwl
2009-06-09, 10:41 PM
my understanding was that divine defiance can be used to dispel spell like abilities. if that is the case, could you just counter the warding and then proceed to kill the iotsv?

Zergrusheddie
2009-06-09, 10:41 PM
And once you can raise dual warding, it tends to take two spells to break your defenses (two specific spells, mind you) and then a third one to get to you. Martial types, of course, are totally boned.


Aren't Martial types always boned by casters though? Hell, Levitate is a Second Level spell and it alone can own any Fighter.

On Dual Wards, how exactly does it work? If Bill the Initiate has a Red and a Yellow Ward up (Red being on the outside) what happens when a Cone of Cold hits him? It states to "negate the entire warding", the outermost must be negated. So does the Red one disappear or does it just count as being 'negated' while still having an effect until the Yellow one is negated?

Thanks y'all.
-Eddie

The Glyphstone
2009-06-09, 10:43 PM
Red just goes away. What that line means is that negating the Red with its key spell won't also take the Yellow with it, you'll need Yellow's specific spell to disable that layer.

Maerok
2009-06-09, 10:57 PM
It's like the pinnacle of abjuration shenanigans, and fun to play. I had one that used the tattooed spell books and was an excellent counterspeller/dispeller. But no one really counterspells it seems...

Hat-Trick
2009-06-09, 10:58 PM
Yeah, the whole point of Antimagic Field is to create an area where magic says "No." The veils should be negated within the range of the field. If they aren't, what's the point of say "all spells are suppress within the radius?" It should say "All spells, except for the veils which win because they're the veils, are suppressed within the radius."

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-09, 11:03 PM
Yeah, the whole point of Antimagic Field is to create an area where magic says "No." The veils should be negated within the range of the field. If they aren't, what's the point of say "all spells are suppress within the radius?" It should say "All spells, except for the veils which win because they're the veils, are suppressed within the radius."Why do people always think AMF is good? There are a dozen ways around it, from Orbs to Walls of Force to just, you know, not being within 10' of it.

AMF is an Emenation. It can't get through the Veils to affect them.

The Glyphstone
2009-06-09, 11:08 PM
Because the Veils specifically say that they function like Prismatic Wall, which is given a explicit immunity to Antimagic field. Prismatic walls are just nasty in general, which is why a class who can cherry-pick the best layers and carry them around with him at will is so nasty.

Gorbash
2009-06-09, 11:12 PM
Does Indigo Veil affect the Initiate also?

Meaning when he raises the ward, can he cast spells through it?

quick_comment
2009-06-09, 11:18 PM
Initiates are really easy to kill with two people though.

Person 2 readies an action. Condition: When the initiate raises a veil. Action: Cast antimagic ray/whatever

Person 1 charges, casts a hostile spell, says mean things, whatever it takes to get the initiate to raise the veils.

When the initiate raises the veils, the readied action interrupts the action that triggers it, so you get a shot to take out the veils before they are raised.

Hat-Trick
2009-06-09, 11:46 PM
Yes, there are ways around the Anti-magic Field, but if something sustained by magical energy, such as a veil, is within it's range it should still be suppressed. You have to attack with something mundane to affect anything in it. Arrows, swords, fists, whatever, maybe a conjured monster or something, but the veil should still fall. No magic, no veil.

Innis Cabal
2009-06-09, 11:48 PM
Yes, there are ways around the Anti-magic Field, but if something sustained by magical energy, such as a veil, is within it's range it should still be suppressed. You have to attack with something mundane to affect anything in it. Arrows, swords, fists, whatever, maybe a conjured monster or something, but the veil should still fall. No magic, no veil.

Thats not how it works though. So the logic may be slightly sound but its flawed by how the actual magic in D&D works.

Hat-Trick
2009-06-10, 12:11 AM
Well, at least I'm not crazy.

Eldariel
2009-06-10, 12:18 AM
Yes, there are ways around the Anti-magic Field, but if something sustained by magical energy, such as a veil, is within it's range it should still be suppressed. You have to attack with something mundane to affect anything in it. Arrows, swords, fists, whatever, maybe a conjured monster or something, but the veil should still fall. No magic, no veil.

The whole point is, Anti-Magic Field is an emanation. So it never actually covers the area of the veil, since the veil blocks it. Same is true with Wall of Force, Prismatic Wall and a handful of other similar effects. It can't end magical effects it can't cover.

It may be anti-magic but the anti-magic "radiation" needs to be able to cover some magical phenomenon to shut it down and if it's blocked by the said magical phenomenon, it does nothing. Really, I dislike the idea of AMF as the grand equalizer, simply because it's so unwieldy and many magical effects already trivialize it (most importantly Contingencies: Teleport if there's an AMF 5' from me, general teleportation and Walls along with Orbs and what-not).

Malicte
2009-06-10, 12:25 AM
No, you're right. It *SHOULD* fall. But the rules say it doesn't, which is just one of the many, many reasons why it's hard to kill an Initiate.

Would a Mage's Disjunction do the job?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-10, 12:30 AM
No, you're right. It *SHOULD* fall. But the rules say it doesn't, which is just one of the many, many reasons why it's hard to kill an Initiate.

Would a Mage's Disjunction do the job?MDJ can take out any caster. It's specifically one of the 2 ways to take down a Prismatic Sphere without going through level by level. Except, that's all it does against one. Normally hitting a caster with MDJ eliminates all of their buffs, magic items, extra-dimensional carrying capacity, and everything else that makes them more than a commoner. Against a IotSFV, it takes out...his active veils. The IotSFV probably isn't too perturbed at that, given the alternative.

quick_comment
2009-06-10, 12:33 AM
MDJ can take out any caster. It's specifically one of the 2 ways to take down a Prismatic Sphere without going through level by level. Except, that's all it does against one. Normally hitting a caster with MDJ eliminates all of their buffs, magic items, extra-dimensional carrying capacity, and everything else that makes them more than a commoner. Against a IotSFV, it takes out...his active veils. The IotSFV probably isn't too perturbed at that, given the alternative.

And given the fact unless he just raised them, he can raise them again...

Gorbash
2009-06-10, 02:55 AM
Does Indigo Veil affect the Initiate also?

Meaning when he raises the ward, can he cast spells through it?

Bump. Meow Meow Meow.

Decoy Lockbox
2009-06-10, 11:11 AM
Imagine the following situation. You are playing a card game against a person. The only difference is, they get to pick which rules are being used, and can change said rules at any time, such as after you put down your cards, but they havn't yet put down theres. Also, every time you lose a hand, they smack you in the face with a baseball bat.

THAT is what fighting an IotSfV is like.

Isn't that what fighting any type of caster is like :smallbiggrin:

Facing a caster in 3.5 is like facing a well-built, well-played blue deck in Magic: the Gathering -- hard as hell, and often rather irritating.

Hat-Trick
2009-06-10, 11:45 AM
It's like playing chess with only pawns. You can't go very far.

woodenbandman
2009-06-10, 12:53 PM
Wizards pwn fighters like a Blue/White control deck pwns a burn deck that's mana locked.

Aneantir
2009-06-10, 01:01 PM
Wizards pwn fighters like a Blue/White control deck pwns a burn deck that's mana locked.

Heres the thing, the examples being given here are all about control based decks owning other decks since they have most in common with the Wizard in play-style. Personally, I feel as though it would be more accurate to compare casters to, say, Ravager Affinity in Onslaughter/Mirrodin Standard, simply because it literally ran the format.

Optimystik
2009-06-10, 01:33 PM
Heres the thing, the examples being given here are all about control based decks owning other decks since they have most in common with the Wizard in play-style. Personally, I feel as though it would be more accurate to compare casters to, say, Ravager Affinity in Onslaughter/Mirrodin Standard, simply because it literally ran the format.

Not to turn this into a Magic thread, but...

U/x control's strength is that it can outlast you by countering any strategy you come up with, then finishing you at its leisure when you run out of options.

RAffinity's strength was that it wins so quickly that it didn't need to counter anything (and that's even after Disciple of the Vault and Skullclamp got banned.)

Batman wizards are more like the former scenario - a response to every threat, making you suck until you have no steam left, rather than bulldozing you in seconds.

Aneantir
2009-06-10, 01:38 PM
Not to turn this into a Magic thread, but...

U/x control's strength is that it can outlast you by countering any strategy you come up with, then finishing you at its leisure when you run out of options.

RAffinity's strength was that it wins so quickly that it didn't need to counter anything (and that's even after Disciple of the Vault and Skullclamp got banned.)

Batman wizards are more like the former scenario - a response to every threat, making you suck until you have no steam left, rather than bulldozing you in seconds.

I'm aware of why the U/X control decks were being used to represent the batman wizard, but the point is that that never actually worked as effictively as presented.

U/X control decks have shown up in many, many metagames over the course of magic history, but it's incredibly rare for them to be THE deck, at least not anytime in the past few years. They don't shape and warp the worlds around them as spellcasters in D&D do.

Thats why I choose Ravager Affinity and it's ilk to represent the spellcasters. It defined everything that existed in standard, right up until half the deck got the ban hammer.

Eldariel
2009-06-10, 01:40 PM
I'm aware of why the U/X control decks were being used to represent the batman wizard, but the point is that that never actually worked as effictively as presented.

U/X control decks have shown up in many, many metagames over the course of magic history, but it's incredibly rare for them to be THE deck, at least not anytime in the past few years. They don't shape and warp the worlds around them as spellcasters in D&D do.

Thats why I choose Ravager Affinity and it's ilk to represent the spellcasters. It defined everything that existed in standard, right up until half the deck got the ban hammer.

Uh, Necro Trix is the better example anyways; a control-deck that wins early on and wrecked the whole Ext metagame back then.

Aneantir
2009-06-10, 01:48 PM
Uh, Necro Trix is the better example anyways; a control-deck that wins early on and wrecked the whole Ext metagame back then.

Ah. Yes. Forgot about Trix..... Well don't I look foolish.

Lysander
2010-02-14, 12:48 PM
You know a prismatic wall doesn't necessarily negate a melee fighter. The first three layers just deal energy damage and allow reflex saves to avoid some harm, a poison immunity item lets them get through the fourth layer without harm, and the last three are SoL which successful saving throws can let you ignore. Going insane doesn't necessarily stop them from attacking the caster. Cast dimensional anchor on whoever's trying to get through so they don't even need to worry about the seventh one.

Pechvarry
2010-02-14, 01:14 PM
The fighter might be naked, though. >.>

Layer 7 disintegrates any objects and plane shifts any creatures. It doesn't mention how this affects gear. A charging barbarian needs to make saves for all of his gear?

magic9mushroom
2010-02-14, 01:20 PM
You know a prismatic wall doesn't necessarily negate a melee fighter. The first three layers just deal energy damage and allow reflex saves to avoid some harm, a poison immunity item lets them get through the fourth layer without harm, and the last three are SoL which successful saving throws can let you ignore. Going insane doesn't necessarily stop them from attacking the caster. Cast dimensional anchor on whoever's trying to get through so they don't even need to worry about the seventh one.

How does it feel to specialise in Necromancy?

But on-topic, Gorbash's question never got answered, and the answer is that the IotSV can cast out.

Icarus
2010-02-14, 02:04 PM
You're forgetting that by the time the higher veils are available, the DM should be providing appropriate challenges for him.
Disjunction will negate the veils. If you aren't alright with potentially frying items, Rods of Cancellation bring down entire prismatic walls; there's no reason they can't bring down a double warding also.

Any bad guy worth anything can also just leave, do some research, and come back with the correct resources (i.e. prepare cone of cold, passwall; dimensional anchor for allies, etc) to be a little more prepared for the fight. Guerilla tactics work great against a party with one also. Charge in- he veils- run away. The ability is wasted.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-14, 02:15 PM
You're forgetting that by the time the higher veils are available, the DM should be providing appropriate challenges for him.
Disjunction will negate the veils. If you aren't alright with potentially frying items, Rods of Cancellation bring down entire prismatic walls; there's no reason they can't bring down a double warding also.

Disjunction is a 9th level spell. Rods of Cancellation are one-use and expensive. The IotSV can restore the veils as an immediate action and has 4/day.


Any bad guy worth anything can also just leave, do some research, and come back with the correct resources (i.e. prepare cone of cold, passwall; dimensional anchor for allies, etc) to be a little more prepared for the fight. Guerilla tactics work great against a party with one also. Charge in- he veils- run away. The ability is wasted.

Even having the spells prepared, you lose out in actions. You cast a spell, he veils and it's wasted. You then have to spend 2 more spells knocking the veils down, and he can counter those (this can get particularly bad if he's using yellow/violet, because Disintegrate is hard to Quicken). Being able to get through them is only half the job - you also have to be able to pull it off before the IotSV kills you. Beholder Mages can do it without breaking a sweat, but those are Beholder Mages.

Icarus
2010-02-14, 02:48 PM
Wait, are we talking one-on-one here? If so, why? D&D is a party game. You have allies. You fight NPCs with allies.
An immediate action is useable only once per round. That means no abrupt jaunt, no celerity that round after a veil is used (or vice versa). That action can't be used again. Once it is brought down for that round, there is nothing stopping the various types of hurting him to commence.
I'm not going to go into the "oh, but hes flying and has a permanent gust of wind with a repulsion effect riding a Half Fiend Gelatenous Tarrasque" part of this discussion because its all theoretical, which usually has no standing in an actual game.

IMO 11,000g for a rod of cancellation is not bad.
Also, The first level you can take this class is at level 10. Meaning you're level 17 when you finish it, meaning you have 9th level spells anyway (considering wizard base). There's no reason at this point for important enemy NPC's with casting capability to have anything less to throw back at the party or it just isn't a challenge.

Optimizing has grown to just be a bunch of theorycrafting, leading to everything else to be theorycrafting. Yeah, this class makes the wizard/sorc/whatever else invincible for a few minutes a day. So what? Being invincible is fun. Last I checked, D&D is suppoused to be fun. For tough fights there is no reason not to have the BBEG with a couple of minions weilding rods of negation. Why? Because at that point in the campaign world, you are dangerous. People who want to hurt you will do what needs to be done to make you hurt.

Edit: If you really want to ruin the Initiate's day, make an NPC that wears the Seven Veils item set out of the MiC.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-14, 02:56 PM
Wait, are we talking one-on-one here? If so, why? D&D is a party game. You have allies. You fight NPCs with allies.
An immediate action is useable only once per round. That means no abrupt jaunt, no celerity that round after a veil is used (or vice versa). That action can't be used again. Once it is brought down for that round, there is nothing stopping the various types of hurting him to commence.
I'm not going to go into the "oh, but hes flying and has a permanent gust of wind with a repulsion effect riding a Half Fiend Gelatenous Tarrasque" part of this discussion because its all theoretical, which usually has no standing in an actual game.

IMO 11,000g for a rod of cancellation is not bad.
Also, The first level you can take this class is at level 10. Meaning you're level 17 when you finish it, meaning you have 9th level spells anyway (considering wizard base). There's no reason at this point for important enemy NPC's with casting capability to have anything less to throw back at the party or it just isn't a challenge.

Optimizing has grown to just be a bunch of theorycrafting, leading to everything else to be theorycrafting. Yeah, this class makes the wizard/sorc/whatever else invincible for a few minutes a day. So what? Being invincible is fun. Last I checked, D&D is suppoused to be fun. For tough fights there is no reason not to have the BBEG with a couple of minions weilding rods of negation. Why? Because at that point in the campaign world, you are dangerous. People who want to hurt you will do what needs to be done to make you hurt.

Even if they can get it down, you've wasted 3 enemy actions with one of yours. That's no mean feat.

Roland St. Jude
2010-02-14, 02:59 PM
You know a prismatic wall doesn't necessarily negate a melee fighter. The first three layers just deal energy damage and allow reflex saves to avoid some harm, a poison immunity item lets them get through the fourth layer without harm, and the last three are SoL which successful saving throws can let you ignore. Going insane doesn't necessarily stop them from attacking the caster. Cast dimensional anchor on whoever's trying to get through so they don't even need to worry about the seventh one.

Sheriff of Moddingham: This thread was over six months old. Let it rest.