New Race: Mwnci (Monkeys!) P.E.A.C.H.

[CommanderFalken]

I posted this a while back on the WOTC boards. Now I'd like your opinions.

MWNCI

Personality: Mwnci are cheery, fun-loving creatures. They are rarely unhappy, and always ready to laugh. They are continually pulling pranks and making jokes. They always chatter and giggle, and many elves consider them the inventors of migraines.

Physical Description: Mwnci look like, well, monkeys. They are about 2 feet tall, and covered in fur. Their fur is normally brown, and their eyes are black or dark brown. They have nimble hands, and a long, prehensile tail.

Relations: Mwnci get along famously with Halflings and gnomes, as their happy-go-lucky mentalities match. Elves, sharing their lands, consider mwnci as amusing, but they always keep their eye on them to make sure they don’t steal anything of value. Dwarves don’t trust them at all, regarding them as pranksters and thieves. Half-orcs rarely associate with the mwnci.

Alignment: Mwnci have a zeal for life that evil finds hard to corrupt. They are rarely evil. Mwnci lean towards chaos over law, as they have a tendency to value freedom over all.

Mwnci lands: Mwnci live in the trees, often near (sometimes over) the elves’ cities. The monkey cities are risky for anyone of normal size to enter, as the cities are too small for most creatures and the floors of the buildings are separated by a good climb. The cities are run by councils of Tribal Elders.

Religion: Elhonna, goddess of the Woodland, has taken the mwnci under her wing, and many mwnci worship her. They will sometimes worship other nature gods and goddesses. In FR campaigns, replace Elhonna with Mielikki and her allies.

Language: The Mwnci language (affectionately called 'Monkey') is made up mostly of squeaks, squeals and chirps. It has it’s own alphabet.

Adventures: Mwnci adventure for the sole purpose of getting out to see the world. They love to explore new worlds, and are infinitely curious.


Mwnci Racial Stats:

• +4 Dex, -4 Str, -2 Wis. Mwnci are amazingly nimble, but they are weak
due to their size, and they are somewhat naïve.

• Tiny: As Tiny creatures, mwnci get a +2 size bonus to attack, a +2 size bonus to AC, and a +8 size bonus on Hide Checks, but he uses weapons 2 sizes smaller than humans use, takes a -8 penalty on grapple checks, and his lifting and carrying limits are 1/2 that of humans. Also, he doesn’t take up an entire square, and thus he does not threaten any squares around him unless using a reach weapon.

• Speed: 30 feet (6 squares), climb 30 feet. Mwnci get a +8 on all Climb checks, and can take 10 on a Climb check even if under stress or distracted.

• Strange Shape: Mwnci must have their armor custom-made (unless in a monkey city). It costs the same as medium armor of the same type, but weighs 1/10 of the normal weight.

• Dexterous Climbing: Mwnci apply their Dex modifier (instead of their
Str modifier) to Climb checks.

•TAIL: Mwnci have a prehensile tail that acts as a third arm. This allows them to weild a third weapon as an off-hand attack. This tail isn't completely an arm, though. Mwnci take a -2 penalty to do something delicate with the tail (pick a lock, untie a knot, etc). Also, the tail grants mwnci a +2 bonus on Balance checks and a +2 bonus on Reflex saves to avoid falling. (Thanks Rogue Shadows,on the WOTC boards)

• Low-light Vision: as Elf.

• Mwnci can take the Scent special ability in place of a feat at 1st level.

•Unintelligible: Mwnci can learn to understand (via bonus languages or the Speak Language skill) various languages, but they can only ever respond in Monkey. They understand words spoken to them in other languages they 'know', and can read in any language they know (unless illiterate). Mwnci vocal cords are not suitable for speaking in other languages.

• Automatic Languages: Common, Monkey. Bonus Languages: Elven, Sylvan, Halfling, and Goblin. Mwnci learn the languages of their forest friends, along with the language of their most common enemy.

• Favored Class: Rogue.

•LA:+0

Is this balanced?

[squishycube]

I think it is very balanced, maybe even make the strength penalty be -2. You have a lot of disadvantages going there.

But how do you suppose to have it work in a party when it can't speak with the others?

[Altair_the_Vexed]

This looks well balanced - maybe your stat bonuses are a little harsh.
The race is a sort of down-sized version of the Vanara, from Oriental Adventures. Love the Welsh spelling, BTW.

[ScorpiusRisk]

Can they write? That's my big curiosity. It looks balanced to me. What's the penalty to three-weapon fighting?

[SpiderMew]

I love monkeys! I think it looks ballenced to me. I can see why defently they'd make great roges. I might like to use one some time if that were ok.
BTW: Multi weapon fighting info can be found in the monster manual.

[Norbert]

Overall, the balance looks alright, but there are a couple points to address.
I might be concerned about the tail, but it's hard to say with certainty. There are no other races which are +0 LA with more than 2 arms. This could be very abusable in the hands of a rogue (which the race seems naturally suited for). That could be a lot of sneak attacks at a relatively low level. Were it my call, I'd say drop the use of the tail for attacks, but keep the skill bonus' / usage. That would retain the flavor without being unbalancing

One rules quibble, you mentioned they're 2 feet tall. That's small, not tiny. Always be wary of using Tiny races for PC's along with significant racial strength penalties. With a strength mod of -4, the average Mwnci will have a heavy load capactity of only 20-30 pounds. If I recall correctly 100 gold = 1 lb. That's not much weight to work with for equipment and things.

[starwoof]

2 feet tall is tiny, as thats around the size of a cat.

Can other people lrearn to speak monkey or must they communicate in sign language?

[Norbert]

2 feet tall is tiny, as thats around the size of a cat.

I don't know about you, but my cat is definitely not 2 feet tall. It might be 2 feet long, but it is not 2 feet tall at the shoulder. Furthermore, small is defined as 2 - 4 feet in overall height or length. (which makes your 2 foot cat small, not tiny)

Here's the relevant page in the SRD:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat

If the monkey has 2 feet of vertical height, plus a foot or so for a tail, that puts him squarly into the small category.

[Cyclone231]

I think you have too many consonents in a row, personally.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I don't know about you, but my cat is definitely not 2 feet tall. It might be 2 feet long, but it is not 2 feet tall at the shoulder. Furthermore, small is defined as 2 - 4 feet in overall height or length. (which makes your 2 foot cat small, not tiny)
And Tiny is defined as 1 ft. to 2 ft. tall. That puts 2ft. right on the border line where we could go either way.

And a cat is a quadrepend, so it's based off body length (nose to base of tail), not height.


If the monkey has 2 feet of vertical height, plus a foot or so for a tail, that puts him squarly into the small category.
The tail doesn't contribute to height in any form. Even on races where size is measured by length, the tail doesn't count. Check the footnotes on that table you linked to. When it comes down to it, a 2 foot height can go either way.

[hr]On a related note:
Take a page out of the half-giant's book. Since it's on the border between size categories we could make it Tiny with the Powerful Build trait, allowing it to use Small weapons. It would still have zero reach though.

[Norbert]

Nice catch Shhalahr. I did in fact miss the footnote about tails. I recalled that kobolds, being listed as 2 - 2.5 feet in height, were small and scurried off in search of a link without fully reading it.



And a cat is a quadrepend, so it's based off body length (nose to base of tail), not height.

The tail doesn't contribute to height in any form. Even on races where size is measured by length, the tail doesn't count. Check the footnotes on that table you linked to. When it comes down to it, a 2 foot height can go either way.

The point still stands that Tiny characters are incredibly restricted in their interactions with the rest of the party, and the general game balance does not work well with Tiny PCs.
(heavy load of 20 lbs = 2000 gold pieces, reduces you to a max dex of +1 and 20 feet per round. Ouch.)

An interesting clarification might be that if the author is going for a Chimp-type monkey to add Brachiation as a bonus feet instead of Scent. (though I forget which book that comes from)

Edit: because Shhalahr edited while I was posting.
I like the idea of putting in a powerful build analogue. That would solve most of the carrying capacity problems. Though you might want to reduce either the size bonus to AC or To-Hit as a result.

[Seffbasilisk]

Just out of curiousity, did you get this idea from the Neopet Mynci?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Nice catch Shhalahr. I did in fact miss the footnote about tails. I recalled that kobolds, being listed as 2 - 2.5 feet in height, were small and scurried off in search of a link without fully reading it.
Yeah. Of course, the two-foot tall kobold is on the short end for their race. Most of the kobolds are over 2 feet and therefore definitely Small.

Of course, when 2 ft. is the average for the race rather than a minimum or maximum, you could call it either way, and it comes down to the flavor the creator of that race wants.


The point still stands that Tiny characters are incredibly restricted in their interactions with the rest of the party, and the general game balance does not work well with Tiny PCs.
Definitely. Tiny does pose a series of challenges. Of course, the Tiny size might have been included as a mitigating factor on the possibility of Multiweapon fighting so that the race could be +0 LA. (And I do think it helps balance it that way.)

When it comes down to it, though, the disadvantages to being Tiny are all physical. So I doubt it would change the balance any more than playing a Str 6 Halfling bard/charisma rogue/enchanter. You just gotta find the right niche.

Anyway, some people find it outright advantageous to be Tiny, as evidenced by the Tiny Ninja Build (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=gaming;action=display;num=1143483104 ) thread.


An interesting clarification might be that if the author is going for a Chimp-type monkey to add Brachiation as a bonus feet instead of Scent. (though I forget which book that comes from)
Not a bad line of thought there.


I like the idea of putting in a powerful build analogue. That would solve most of the carrying capacity problems. Though you might want to reduce either the size bonus to AC or To-Hit as a result.
Powerful Build doesn't really affect carrying capacity. It just gives you the larger character's size modifer when advantageous to do so, lets you count as larger when resisting certain attacks, and lets you use larger weapons. Throwing other things in there would just make you larger but with reduced reach.

[CommanderFalken]

Wow, responses! See what happens when I lose the URL?



On a related note:
Take a page out of the half-giant's book. Since it's on the border between size categories we could make it Tiny with the Powerful Build trait, allowing it to use Small weapons. It would still have zero reach though.

Hmmm.... It dosn't seem to fit in my mind. I'm just not seeing it. But it's still a possibility.


But how do you suppose to have it work in a party when it can't speak with the others?

Have somebody take Speak Language: Monkey. Then you get a Han Solo-Chewbacca kind of relationship.


Can they write?

Yes.


Just out of curiousity, did you get this idea from the Neopet Mynci?

Not really. I mean, the creature's a monkey, right? But I don't play Neopets, my sister does though. The only reason their names are the same is that Mwnci is Monkey translated into Welsh. May choose a different language soon, though.



My sister's about to playtest one for the first time. She's a lvl3 Rogue working alongside a Dwarf bbn. She already has a hide modifier of +21!

[Alchemistmerlin]

I think this character is handicapped in it's distinct lack of Vowels. Unpronounceable names don't really work well for anyone.

[bosssmiley]

"Iz zis yur mwnci?" -- Peter Sellers ;D

I love it! A playable race of helper monkeys - perfect for my pirate game. It's what Kenders should have been all along!

For added horror and blasphemy against the game: Mwnci paladin with a three-toed sloth mount.

"Aw! Doesn't it look cute in its widdle suit of silvered armour..." *SMITE!*

[Jack Mann]

I think this character is handicapped in it's distinct lack of Vowels. Unpronounceable names don't really work well for anyone.

It doesn't come up much in English, but W can be used as a vowel. Just ask the Welsh.

[CommanderFalken]

It doesn't come up much in English, but W can be used as a vowel. Just ask the Welsh.

Speaking of which, does anyone know how this is supposed to be pronounced? Any Welsh-speakers here?

[Jack Mann]

Just noticed this. In fact, the W in Welsh has a short and long version. Short pronunciation is like took (twp) or and the long is like pool (rhwd).

[Sir Conkey]

This thread hasn't been used in awhile as far as I can tell but I am sorry i missed it, I have had the same han solo-chewbacca problem before, only it was with and umber-hulk who wasn't smart enough to understand other langauges, that and being a bug we didn't think his mandibles could fit around human words