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SSGoW
2009-06-10, 12:32 PM
So which way is the best?

4d6 best three

2d4 + 10

1d8 + 10

is there a downfall to a certain one and any mathmatical advantages from the others?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-10, 12:33 PM
3d6.

Taken in order.

2d4 + 10
Average of 15, range of 12 to 18 with a Gaussian distribution centered aroun the average of 15.

1d8 + 10

Average of 14.5, range of 11 to 18, same chance of any number between 11 and 18.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-10, 12:36 PM
Best depends on personal perspective. I, for example, prefer pt-buy, due to rolling low repeatedly when I was new to RPing.

Each of the methods you listed ends up with a different distribution of numbers. 4d6b3 works out to a mean of 12.5, with a range of 3-18. 10+2d4 has a mean of 15, with a range of 12-18. 10+1d8 has a mean of 14.5, with a range of 11-18.

Magentawolf
2009-06-10, 12:36 PM
3d6.

Taken in order.

Shall I remove myself from your lawn, Sir?

Artanis
2009-06-10, 12:38 PM
Which way is best is a matter of perspective, especially in terms of rolling vs. point buy.

Point buy isn't random, which allows you to ensure that you have the stats you need for the character, thereby taking away the chance of somebody getting screwed over. On the other hand, many people like rolling, often because they like the randomness that point buy removes.

The 2d4+10 will have a higher average and be more consistant than the 1d8+10. I don't recall what the average for 4d6 drop 1 is, but I seem to recall seeing somewhere that statistically, it's in the same general neighborhood as what a standard point-buy will get you.

Edit: wow, ninja'd three times :smalleek:

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-10, 12:39 PM
Shall I remove myself from your lawn, Sir?

Lawn? LAWN?

In my day, we didn't have your fancy lawns. We just had dirt in front of our houses, and if we were lucky weeds would blossom there.

Duke of URL
2009-06-10, 12:41 PM
So which way is the best?

4d6 best three

2d4 + 10

1d8 + 10

is there a downfall to a certain one and any mathmatical advantages from the others?

Well, the +10 ones ensure no negative modifiers (prior to racial mods); I've seen a 1d10 + 8 and 1d12 + 6 variant before.

Others have pointed out the statistical differences. Point buy is good if you don't want a wide variety in ability scores (especially if one player has a bunch of 16-18 and another has all 10-12) -- but it leads to min/maxing, as people try to squeeze the most they can out of that purchase. I like the randomness of rolling better, myself.

Alternatively, you can just stat up a few "equivalent" arrays and either let players choose one of them or roll randomly for them.

Ravens_cry
2009-06-10, 12:44 PM
Lawn? LAWN?

In my day, we didn't have your fancy lawns. We just had dirt in front of our houses, and if we were lucky weeds would blossom there.
Bah, infant. In my day we didn't have dirt. We just had solid rock. Dirt hadn't eroded yet.:smalltongue:

LibraryOgre
2009-06-10, 12:48 PM
3D6 X6

Just like my license plate says.

The Rose Dragon
2009-06-10, 12:50 PM
Bah. In my day, we didn't have this fancy "matter" thing you people seem so attached to. We rolled dice made out of momentum on tables made out of heat. And we liked it!

In my day, we didn't roll anything either, we had pre-generated character sheets. We were lucky if we ever got an idea how they were ever generated in the first place.

Tokiko Mima
2009-06-10, 12:53 PM
I've always been a big fan of 3d6 x6 and arrange, with the rule that lowest die of the three counts as a 6. It produces consistently playable characters, with a good chance for a single high score.

JellyPooga
2009-06-10, 12:54 PM
I say 1d20-2 rolled individually for each ability score (no switching!) is the best method. If you end up with a non-ability score (0 or less) you have to play a race with a relevant non-ability (like an Undead if you have a non-ability in Con). Huzzah for truly random rolls! :smalltongue:

lsfreak
2009-06-10, 12:56 PM
I like high-powered. 4d6, reroll all 1's and 2's, best of 3. Two 17's or 18's is normal.

Hat-Trick
2009-06-10, 12:59 PM
Agreed. I prefer high stats, so Point buy was is never very fun for me. It takes most of your points to get one exceptional score and you have nothing else. I have a philosophy that a character should have at least one 18, or damn near close.

Tokiko Mima
2009-06-10, 01:00 PM
I say 1d20-2 rolled individually for each ability score (no switching!) is the best method. If you end up with a non-ability score (0 or less) you have to play a race with a relevant non-ability (like an Undead if you have a non-ability in Con). Huzzah for truly random rolls! :smalltongue:

So if you roll a non-ability for Strength or Dexterity, do you have to play a Plant? What happens if you roll a non-ability for Charisma or Wisdom?

Curmudgeon
2009-06-10, 01:04 PM
Point buy. Anything else invites cheating.

Duke of URL
2009-06-10, 01:06 PM
I like high-powered. 4d6, reroll all 1's and 2's, best of 3. Two 17's or 18's is normal.

That's the same as 4d4b3 + 6 -- avg. 14.6

SSGoW
2009-06-10, 01:08 PM
cheating? easy to get around :p just roll infront of everyone

Tengu_temp
2009-06-10, 01:17 PM
Lawn? LAWN?

In my day, we didn't have your fancy lawns. We just had dirt in front of our houses, and if we were lucky weeds would blossom there.

That's how my lawn looked like before my mother started to get crazy about gardening.

I prefer point buy. It's balanced, fair, and gives players more control about creating exactly the character they want. Ir's worth noting that most big and serious RPGs abandoned rolling ages ago (and in DND, with the advent of 4e, point buy is the default stat generation method as well).

Curmudgeon
2009-06-10, 01:38 PM
cheating? easy to get around :p just roll infront of everyone No, that just means you cheat by selecting dice with a bias. (Or if you're sufficiently skillful, by manipulating the throw.)

JellyPooga
2009-06-10, 01:45 PM
So if you roll a non-ability for Strength or Dexterity, do you have to play a Plant? What happens if you roll a non-ability for Charisma or Wisdom?

Non-ability on Str or Dex? Yup, plant it is...you have to get the other PCs to carry you around in a pot. Non-ability on Cha or Wis...weeell, I'm sure there's somthing you can play...won't be a very exciting conversationalist though.

Duke of URL
2009-06-10, 01:52 PM
Non-ability on Str or Dex? Yup, plant it is...you have to get the other PCs to carry you around in a pot. Non-ability on Cha or Wis...weeell, I'm sure there's somthing you can play...won't be a very exciting conversationalist though.

I believe there is no such thing as a "functional" non-ability for Cha or Wis. Essentially, you would have rolled up a character that is, for all purposes that matter, incapable of interacting with the world around them. Call it "dead" and re-roll.

ghost_warlock
2009-06-10, 01:55 PM
So if you roll a non-ability for Strength or Dexterity, do you have to play a Plant? What happens if you roll a non-ability for Charisma or Wisdom?

Two non-abilities? Str and Con. Congratulations, you're a shadow. Have fun Str-draining everything into oblivion. :smallsmile:

OT:

Personally, I prefer pt-buy (32+ points so you can actually play a MAD class).

That, or roll 5d4, arrange to taste. In fact, make a couple more characters the same way because this is Athas!

Artanis
2009-06-10, 02:15 PM
Bah. In my day, we didn't have this fancy "matter" thing you people seem so attached to. We rolled dice made out of momentum on tables made out of heat. And we liked it!

Do you mind if I sig this?

SilverClawShift
2009-06-10, 02:26 PM
28 point buy is my favorite.

Every now and then, when we all agree, my group does 4d6, drop the lowest, down in order, make what you can out of it. Sometimes we even roll for race and gender :smalltongue:

TheThan
2009-06-10, 02:26 PM
The standard roll
The standard method is to roll 4d6 and drop the lowest die roll. Thusly it generates a number between 3 and 18.

The D8 method
This variation is simple. Just roll a D8 and add ten to the result. Thusly generating a number between 11 and 18. Do this 6 times and assign them to your attributes accordingly.

The 1:1 method
This point buy method sets the value of each attribute point at 1. Therefore each point you buy costs a single point. The player starts with 0 in all attribute scores and raises each one up on a 1:1 level. The starting number of points is typically 60, 72, 90 and 120.

In this point buy variation, the player starts out with each attribute score set to 8. He then has 28, 32, 38 points to distribute to each attribute. Each score above 8 has a separate cost according to the chart in the DMG.

daggaz
2009-06-10, 02:34 PM
3D6 X6

Just like my license plate says.

I wouldnt even dare to question the honesty of that statement :smallamused:

Weimann
2009-06-10, 03:26 PM
I like the randomness of the rolls. It helps roleplaying if you aren't always best at something. Also, when you DO get a high roll, it makes it feel more valuable.

I rolled my first (and so far only) DnD character with 4d6, take best three, not in order, allowing a complete reroll if the sum of modifiers were equal to or lower than 0, or if no score was higher than 13. I got a decent roll, not awesome, but it works.

My friend got 15, 16, 16, 16, 17, 18, the lucky bastard :smallannoyed: And then he lost interest in the game :smallfurious:

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-10, 03:33 PM
Bah. In my day, we didn't have this fancy "matter" thing you people seem so attached to. We rolled dice made out of momentum on tables made out of heat. And we liked it!

In my day, I was so old that the universe was still cold, dead, and dark as the basement of the Watergate Hotel. We didn't have your fancy schmancy thermodynamics back then, nosiree! We had to roll dice at absolute zero without generating any kinetic energy with them whatsover!

Tokiko Mima
2009-06-10, 03:38 PM
I believe there is no such thing as a "functional" non-ability for Cha or Wis. Essentially, you would have rolled up a character that is, for all purposes that matter, incapable of interacting with the world around them. Call it "dead" and re-roll.

No, no! You have to play the character that was born into a deep coma and never comes out of it. It's the Zen moment for all RPing; "What's the fun factor of one player playing his non-character?" You could have all the other players occasionally visit and leave flowers (and drop off any new characters with non-abilities for Dex.) :smalltongue:

Totally Guy
2009-06-10, 03:48 PM
How does point buy work in 3.5? I can't find it in the PHB...

For 4th edition I wrote out all the point buy combinations and we just pick a line. Last time we did 3.5 we used the 4th edition point buy because we couldn't find the rules for the 3.5 kind.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-10, 03:49 PM
Go to the internet. (http://www.hackslash.net/?p=73)

John Campbell
2009-06-10, 03:58 PM
3d6.

Taken in order.

But what if you pick Dwarf or Elf or Halfling for your class and don't roll the required 9 in your prime requisite?

(My first ever character was rolled by that method, though. Fighter. I rolled an 18 Str. We later converted that campaign to AD&D, and I rolled double zeroes for my exceptional Strength.)

Personally, I prefer 4d6k3, arrange to taste. Gives a pretty good chance of being able to make the character you want without being as susceptible to rampant min-maxing. Yeah, some people get better stats than others, but who said life was fair?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-10, 04:04 PM
But what if you pick Dwarf or Elf or Halfling for your class and don't roll the required 9 in your prime requisite?

Suck it up and be a man :smallamused:

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-10, 04:10 PM
Personally, I prefer 4d6k3, arrange to taste. Gives a pretty good chance of being able to make the character you want without being as susceptible to rampant min-maxing. Yeah, some people get better stats than others, but who said life was fair?It's not some people getting better stats that I object to, it's that some roll sets are unplayable, and certain DMs don't allow re-rolls. Say you roll 14/8/10/10/10/10. What could you play? I've rolled worse than that and had to play it. We eventually decided the character had Down Syndrome due to the fact that I roleplayed his 8 <10 scores. Some characters have no reason to adventure, and Pt-Buy keep s that from happening.

Glimbur
2009-06-10, 04:13 PM
It's not some people getting better stats that I object to, it's that some roll sets are unplayable, and certain DMs don't allow re-rolls. Say you roll 14/8/10/10/10/10. What could you play? I've rolled worse than that and had to play it. We eventually decided the character had Down Syndrome due to the fact that I roleplayed his 8 <10 scores. Some characters have no reason to adventure, and Pt-Buy keep s that from happening.

Play a Warlock. They don't need stats.

Seriously, though, I generally do point buy.

2009-06-10, 04:19 PM
Say you roll 14/8/10/10/10/10. What could you play?
A Druid.

In my day, I was so old that the universe was still cold, dead, and dark as the basement of the Watergate Hotel. We didn't have your fancy schmancy thermodynamics back then, nosiree! We had to roll dice at absolute zero without generating any kinetic energy with them whatsover!
Bah! Back in the day, we didn't have any of these fancy things that you youngsters have! Entities didn't exist, and neither did properties! Not only was there no heat, no light, and no motion; there was no coldness, no darkness, and no stillness! Except that things didn't even properly not exist yet because there was no nonexistence either!

And had there been such a thing as liking, or such a thing as us, we'd have liked it that way!

John Campbell
2009-06-10, 04:23 PM
It's not some people getting better stats that I object to, it's that some roll sets are unplayable, and certain DMs don't allow re-rolls. Say you roll 14/8/10/10/10/10. What could you play?

You consider that unplayable?

Man, kids these days...

(Play a primary caster. Put your 14 and all your attribute boosts into your casting stat. You'll get your 9th level spells. Yeah, you might not be able to utterly break your save DC, but that's kind of the frickin' point.)

I've rolled worse than that and had to play it. We eventually decided the character had Down Syndrome due to the fact that I roleplayed his 8 <10 scores. Some characters have no reason to adventure, and Pt-Buy keep s that from happening.

I allow re-rolls for unplayable characters. In theory. But I've been playing this game for more than 25 years, and I've never actually seen anyone roll an unplayable character.

Deepblue706
2009-06-10, 05:23 PM
It's not some people getting better stats that I object to, it's that some roll sets are unplayable, and certain DMs don't allow re-rolls. Say you roll 14/8/10/10/10/10. What could you play? I've rolled worse than that and had to play it. We eventually decided the character had Down Syndrome due to the fact that I roleplayed his 8 <10 scores. Some characters have no reason to adventure, and Pt-Buy keep s that from happening.

Halfling Rogue.

STR 8
DEX 16
CON 10
INT 10
WIS 8
CHA 10

And you'll still kick ass, because Halflings rock, especially as Rogues.

Alternatively, with a different distribution you could still be a useful Cleric or Druid...since they're essentially always useful.

@OP: Anyway, my favored method is the standard 4d6b3, and a reroll is permitted if you get worse than a net +5 on your abilities. If while DMing a player gets a distribution like, all 12s, I permit another reroll if the rest of the party is okay with it (they usually are).

I use point-buy for PbP games because I don't trust anyone. I also tend to make it rather high (at the very least, 32) because people on the web seem to be very fickle about ability scores, and rolling twelve times to get it right is absolutely pointless.

Jayabalard
2009-06-10, 05:38 PM
3D6 X6

Just like my license plate says.hmm... it's not 3D6 X8?
:smallbiggrin:

Say you roll 14/8/10/10/10/10. What could you play?almost anything (not some 1e AD&D classes since you don't meet the pre-requisites)

mistformsquirrl
2009-06-10, 06:13 PM
Subjective honestly.

I personally prefer Point Buy, for the simple reason that it tends to be fair, and keeps some of the extremes down.

On the other hand point buy can be a little dull at times, as you only get negatives when you have a 'dump stat'. I personally usually just go with 10s on everything that isn't important.

4d6b3 has it's own charm - Sometimes negatives (or even positives) can be RP hooks unto themselves. Ex: I have a Battle Sorcerer with 9 con in a campaign I'm playing right now. My explanation is that before the campaign began (we're starting at level 5) she was drained by an unusual wraith, and Restoration spells didn't affect the damage. (It's also how she wound up as an adventurer, as that ended her military career.)

The others I've never seen before (well 3d6 I have, not a fan of that though, a lil too random imo.); no real opinion on the other methods though.

aje8
2009-06-10, 08:06 PM
32 point buy is mostly very good(because with random rolling, somethimes one guy gets 5 18s and a 16. Yes I've had this happen. Yes in front of me. Yes we checked the die.)...... but that kinda biases it towards caster classes. Druid for example, 18 in con, 18 in wisdom done.

Other option I like are very positive rolling systems. Stuff like you roll 7 or 8 4d6 drop the lowest and then take the 6 highest from those.

Bah! Back in the day, we didn't have any of these fancy things that you youngsters have! Entities didn't exist, and neither did properties! Not only was there no heat, no light, and no motion; there was no coldness, no darkness, and no stillness! Except that things didn't even properly not exist yet because there was no nonexistence either!

And had there been such a thing as liking, or such a thing as us, we'd have liked it that way!
Well.... theirs no beating that.

Brogen
2009-06-10, 08:59 PM
Well for my last campaign, I gave my players three choices for generation, 4d6b3, 8 times, keep the best six; 36 point buy, or this generation method I came up with, called Take 18.'
They all took 18, which basically, allows you to put an 18 on any of your ability scores, then roll 3d6, five times for your remaining stats, arranged to taste.

We like highpowered campaigns.

3.5, btw.

mohdri
2009-06-10, 10:53 PM
I like high ability scores too. My last campaign I had the players roll 5d6b3 six times. I had 2 players (out of 4) with all 18's. One was a Monk.

I do 36 point buy now.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-06-11, 12:09 AM
I do 4d6b3 r8b6 s3

(Roll 4d6 taking the best 3; Roll 8 times taking the best 6; You can switch around 3 points...as in your 12 and 11 both become 10 and your 15 becomes an 18.)

Add to this the fact that I roll exceptionally high...

Last Character that I played: Str 18, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 18.

Kol Korran
2009-06-11, 07:12 AM
i like 28 point buy- high enough abilities, and a few other secondery abilities. most classes are quite playable with that array.

most of my groups had trouble with random rolls- one player got high rolls, one low rolls, and so someone was disatisfied.

randomness is cool when people are prepared to play bad results, and when the group is mature enough. then it can be awesome. but most players like their characters to be at least as competent as the others. that's why i prefer point buy.

BooNL
2009-06-11, 08:05 AM
I like rolling teh dice. Adds to the random element of the game.

What I hate though, is ending up rolling only uneven numbers. Something like 15 15 14 13 11 11 for example. You might as well let me point buy that and make better use of those stats. In fact, most p&p games I've played were rolls where you got to reasign up to 2 or 4 numbers (though no stat could be improved by more than 1 point).

Methodwise, I like 4d6b3 or 5d6b3 for higher powered games.

#Raptor
2009-06-11, 08:29 AM

Lets use PB 28 for example.
A Druid can get himself 18 Wis, 16 Con and 10 Int. No need to push any other stats thanks to wildshape.
A Wizard can go with 18 Int, 14 Dex, 14 Con. Done.
A Paladin on the other hand... will have something like 14 Str, 10 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 14 Wis, 14 Cha. And lets not forget that he would even get overshadowed by the Wiz and the Druid if he had all 18's.

Rolling on the other hand is just completely random and you might end up with a Paladin or Monk who has two 14's for his highest stats... and a tier 1 class with all 18's. In the same party.

==

So, the system I'd use would be a smart pointbuy.

I believe going with 3 different MAD-groups would be best, were Paladins and Monks are clearly group 1 (the most MAD) and Wizards and Druids are clearly group 3 (the least MAD - and therefore they get a lower pointbuy).

Group 2 would be the biggest group, with classes such as Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue... etc. (the middle of the MAD-ness.)

Now that would be a balanced system, fair towards all classes.

==

And if anyone feels that the stats from pointbuy look too sterile...
... and I do agree, they indeed look sterile, you can always add +1d2-1 (in order) to all attributes after people have choosen how to distribute.
I.e. the player of Crush, the Human Barbarian has choosen the following stats (pb 32):
18 Str
12 Dex
16 Con
10 Int
8 Wis
8 Cha

And then the DM adds stats like this:

18 Str +1d2-1
12 Dex +1d2-1
16 Con +1d2-1
10 Int +1d2-1
8 Wis +1d2-1
8 Cha +1d2-1

And then... we have given some sterile looking pb stats a individual touch. Tadaa!

2009-06-11, 03:11 PM
i like 28 point buy- high enough abilities, and a few other secondery abilities. most classes are quite playable with that array.
I concur. It seems to be about in line with 4d6 drop lowest, but without the randomness.

The 25 point buy suggested by the book is so low that I never hear of anyone actually using it. It's only slightly better than the lackluster "elite" array. 28 points is enough to make a good build but still have some meaningful deficiencies. 32 is more powerful but still close to rolling. Go over 36 points and we're starting to get a little silly decidedly high-powered.

Oh, I just remembered an interesting method that I saw suggested once: Roll up several sets of stats for everybody, and let every player choose which set they want.

That way you get randomness without disparity between players. And it makes each campaign slightly statistically different, especially if you choose from the same arrays when generating NPCs.

John Campbell
2009-06-11, 03:47 PM
The campaign I'm currently playing in, incidentally, uses Sum to 85, because the DM has confused "being heroic" with "having big numbers on your character sheet". It's utterly ridiculous. My character works out as a fifty point buy. Yes, 50. Five-zero.

And the DM wonders why we go through "CR-appropriate" encounters like a chainaxe through warm butter.

Dixieboy
2009-06-11, 03:49 PM
Lawn? LAWN?

In my day, we didn't have your fancy lawns. We just had dirt in front of our houses, and if we were lucky weeds would blossom there.

How is this different from a Lawn? :smallconfused:

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-11, 03:52 PM
How is this different from a Lawn? :smallconfused:

Because back then, lawns hasn't been invented!
Why, we used to call them Grant's fields, we did, after Ulysses S. Grant.

Ninetail
2009-06-11, 04:44 PM

...

So, the system I'd use would be a smart pointbuy.

The other way to do this would be to eliminate the differences in MAD-ness. Which happens to be the approach 4e took. There's still some variation -- a few classes can get away with just 2 decent attributes, while others need 3 -- but nothing like the difference between a 3e wizard or druid and a 3e monk or paladin.

(The 4e elimination of steep variations in power-level between classes is icing on the cake.)

In a reasonably balanced system, point-buy is the fairest approach. It sets all the characters on an even level to begin with and allows any variation in power level to come from the players' planning and creativity, instead of from good or bad luck with the dice. As it should be, IMO.

Once in a while I've used 4d6k3, but this can generate unplayable characters -- last time I did so, I watched someone roll 7/5/5/5/4/3.

One variation I've used that ensures party parity: I have each player roll 4d6 and sum the three highest, once. If there are fewer than 6 players, I do the same until we have 6 numbers. Those 6 numbers are each character's stats. Each player can assign them where he likes, but everyone's using the same base array.

Ovaltine Patrol
2009-06-11, 05:04 PM
I like high-powered. 4d6, reroll all 1's and 2's, best of 3. Two 17's or 18's is normal.

Indeed, maximum heroism and escapism!

ericgrau
2009-06-11, 06:23 PM
4d6, best 3, arranged as desired, rolled in front of everyone so those with highs of 13's and 14's keep them (only slightly below average btw). At least for one campaign. People seem to forget that all 10's are supposed to be average, and the average rolls for a player (who is exceptional) are the same as the elite array 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. I know some people here might have a heart attack from a main stat of 15 (no doubt, based on comments already posted), but honestly it's just a number and it gets old fast. I bet if you gave everyone a 22 in one stat that'd be a genius idea for a campaign, eh? Or give everyone LA -1, or extra magic items. All you're really doing is making things easier, not more interesting.

Flickerdart
2009-06-11, 06:36 PM
Elite Array is for NPCs, players are intended to be more powerful than that. All 10s are average for 3d6 in order, not 4d6b3.

I like 4d6b3, though sometimes the dice hate me. Best of 3 arrays, or reroll all ones once makes for quite powerful stats, but not overwhelmingly so.

2009-06-12, 10:24 AM
What I dislike about each player rolling their own scores is that the results work so contrary to another part of the rules. If one character has a race that gives him better stats than another, the first character is supposed to have a higher level adjustment. So if you roll considerably better stats than another player, shouldn't that give your character a higher level adjustment than hers, for the same reason?

But then, one of the annoyances of 3.5 is that several rules and guidelines that are theoretically supposed to balance the game are so often insufficient to keep the game balanced...

Once in a while I've used 4d6k3, but this can generate unplayable characters -- last time I did so, I watched someone roll 7/5/5/5/4/3.
Well, if you're following the standard 3.5 method, you get to reroll something like that. You get a reroll if... *checks PHB*... your ability modifiers sum to less than 1, or your highest stat is less than 14. So that 14/10/10/10/10/8 array that Sstoopidtallkid mentioned really is the worst possible result, so long as you consider it always desirable to raise a higher-priority modifier at the cost of lowering a lower-priority one by the same amount.

So, even the worst result you can get is playable (although there are a few classes you'd be well-advised to write off this time around), which is intentional. But there's obviously a huge gap between that worst possible result and the best possible result of all 18s. The former is a non-optimally distributed 14 point buy, while the latter is a 96 point buy.

(By the same standard that 14/10/10/10/10/8 can be called the worst possible result, 14/14/10/8/8/8 would be better. Since you'll want depend on as few stats as possible, 14/10/10/10/10/8 isn't really much better 14/10/10/8/8/8, as you'll likely make three stats all but irrelevant to your character's functioning. You're arguably worse off with that array than with a 10 point buy, which can get you a 14 main stat and a 12 Constitution.)

Duke of URL
2009-06-12, 10:34 AM
you can always add +1d2-1 (in order) to all attributes after people have choosen how to distribute.
I.e. the player of Crush, the Human Barbarian has choosen the following stats (pb 32):
18 Str
12 Dex
16 Con
10 Int
8 Wis
8 Cha

And then the DM adds stats like this:

18 Str +1d2-1
12 Dex +1d2-1
16 Con +1d2-1
10 Int +1d2-1
8 Wis +1d2-1
8 Cha +1d2-1

And then... we have given some sterile looking pb stats a individual touch. Tadaa!
[/spoiler]

If you wanted to be a little "meaner" about it, make it 1d3-2 instead, leading to a random -1, 0, or +1 modifier...

Samuel Sturm
2009-06-12, 10:50 AM
Most of the DMs around here use this method;

Roll 4d6, reroll 1's. Then, if you don't have a 18, take your lowest score and make it an 18.

We also use soulknife and monk often, with only the occasional magic user, so the overpowered ability scores sort of balance out. :smalltongue:

Tempest Fennac
2009-06-12, 11:11 AM
When I'm DMing, I allow people to roll 4d6 while dropping the lowest while taking a 32 Point Buy if they don't like the result. I generally like using a 32 PB if I have a specific character in mind but I'll sometimes use 4d6 drop lowest. I almost always choose where my stats go unless I really can't decide what to use (I prefer PB in general because I don't like my stats to be too high or low).

Telonius
2009-06-12, 11:24 AM
One free 18.
d8+10, five times. Reroll any 1, once. (If it comes up a 1 again, it was meant to be).

... and adjust the monster difficulty accordingly. :smallamused:

SSGoW
2009-06-12, 12:38 PM
hmm i like that one since there is a garentee there will be atleast one 18 and all the others are 11 - 18 with plenty dice randomness but i wouldn't give 1 reroll (the free 18 takes care of that)

Ninetail
2009-06-12, 09:33 PM
Well, if you're following the standard 3.5 method, you get to reroll something like that.

True, but this was a 2e campaign.

Of course, we had him reroll it anyway, but that begins to beg the question: why bother with random generation if you're going to finesse it anyway? Why not just eliminate the randomness and ensure that the player has a character that's not only playable, but that he wants to play?

A lot of my 3.5 games even used the "assign yourself whatever stats you want" method. There was surprisingly little munchkinism (although one 18 was quite common).

So, even the worst result you can get is playable (although there are a few classes you'd be well-advised to write off this time around), which is intentional. But there's obviously a huge gap between that worst possible result and the best possible result of all 18s. The former is a non-optimally distributed 14 point buy, while the latter is a 96 point buy.

Yes... and just imagine what these two would be like in the same game. Concocting something that will challenge Mr. 14 while not allowing Superman to sleep through it is hard enough, but doing it multiple times every session for the length of the campaign...

It's incredibly unlikely to happen, of course, but outlying cases do come up. And really, having one lucky player with an 80-point buy equivalent vs. one with a measly 21-point equivalent isn't much better, and will happen a lot more often. That's what randomness does.

theMycon
2009-06-12, 09:57 PM
Well.... theirs no beating that.

If I understood Solipsism better, I'd refute that.

Malacode
2009-06-12, 10:35 PM
Bah! Back in the day, we didn't have any of these fancy things that you youngsters have! Entities didn't exist, and neither did properties! Not only was there no heat, no light, and no motion; there was no coldness, no darkness, and no stillness! Except that things didn't even properly not exist yet because there was no nonexistence either!

And had there been such a thing as liking, or such a thing as us, we'd have liked it that way!

And if you try and tell the kids of today that, with all their fancy RPGs and their dice-rolling programs and their digital character sheets, they won't believe you!