A race totally immune to magic--ideas?

[Barbarian MD]

Okay, while mowing my lawn this morning I had an idea.

What if we created a race that was TOTALLY immune to magic effects.

Immune to spells, potions, buffs, enhancements. They can't even SEE magic. It's hard to explain, so I just posted a bunch of examples below.

I wouldn't even know where to begin with this guy. He'd be underpowered and overpowered at the same time, and I'm sure I haven't even BEGUN to touch on all the consequences such a race would create. As to what DM would allow such a thing? A very stupid brave one.

So don't focus on the headache that a DM would enjoy, just--as a hypothetical question--how would you do it?



Examples:
A sorceror sends a fireball at this guy. To everyone else, it just sort of dissipates when it hits him. He doesn't even see the thing flying towards him.

An archer shoots at him with flaming arrows. The arrows do damage like an ordinary arrow would, but to him, they're not on fire. He runs into a barn to take cover. The archer shoots a flaming arrow at the barn. The barn (not immune to magic) catches on fire, and he has to escape the (non-magical) flames.

A fighter hits him with a magic weapon. The magic enhancements do nothing to aid attack or damage rolls (it acts as though it were simply masterwork).

He hits the fighter back, and his attack (while not enhanced magically itself) slides right through magical buffs on the fighter's armor (again, effectively only masterwork).

A caster hides himself by casting invisibility. This guy can still see the guy, since the magical aura of invisibility is invisible to him.

A potion of cure light wounds? Does absolutely nothing, aside from about 100 calories and maybe 10 grams of protein.

Monk's lay on hands? Absolutely nothing, except perhaps a light massage.

[Riffington]

When he grapples a dragon, does he get eaten or does the dragon collapse under its own weight and implausibility?

[Barbarian MD]

Bwahaha. You just reminded me of Discworld.

Discworld: he'd be fine, and wouldn't see the dragon in the first place.
All other worlds: he gets eaten.

[Tempest Fennac]

I remember hearing about 1 race from earlier editions called Beastmen with what would amount to huge amounts of Spell Resistance which couldn't be dropped in the 3rd Edition. There was a thread on here ages ago, but I can't access it sadly (someone suggested some stats while saying the SR wouldn't result in LA because it can't be eliminated for beneficial effects). http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=467 is the closest I could find, but it doesn't appear to mention SR at all.

[Barbarian MD]

I remember hearing about 1 race from earlier editions called Beastmen with what would amount to huge amounts of Spell Resistance which couldn't be dropped in the 3rd Edition. There was a thread on here ages ago, but I can't access it sadly (someone suggested some stats while saying the SR wouldn't result in LA because it can't be eliminated for beneficial effects). http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=467 is the closest I could find, but it doesn't appear to mention SR at all.

Thanks for the link!

It does: it says "SR 27".

This would be an interesting starting place, but I'm talking about going WAY beyond simple spell resistance.

[Tempest Fennac]

I'm sorry about missing that somehow. I guess you could boost that further without really increasing the LA too much (if they can't drop the SR at all, they can't be healed or buffed).

EDIT: I just remembered that a lot of spells ignore SR. Making them immune to those as well would requie some LA.

[TheLogman]

The Tome of Magic had a race that basically got this. Immunity to magic, good or bad. Don't remember the name of them, but Tome of Magic.

They got SR, which increased gradually, and a small ability to steal magics like Dispel Magic, and an ability to suppress magic items.

EDIT: Looked it up. The name was Karsites. He can never cast arcane or divine spells, if a creature is struck by a Karsite, he must roll a DC 12 Will save or his magic armor, weapon, or shield stops working for a turn, and if a spell fails to pass his SR, he gets healed.

He gets SR 10+his level, some bonuses to stats, human traits, +2 LA

[Barbarian MD]

Eeeen-teresting.

[Gourtox]

Thanks for the link!

It does: it says "SR 27".

This would be an interesting starting place, but I'm talking about going WAY beyond simple spell resistance.

As a race you could say htat it was a creation of a crazy wizard in a land always filled with magic and those tha lived there often died of magic overload. The creatures (with help from the wizard) grew an immunity to magic to a point that they were completely resistant to it.

The race however would have to have a major drawback to counter such resistence.

[Barbarian MD]

Would the fact that it's immune to GOOD magic balance the immunity to BAD magic, or would it need more to balance it?

It already wouldn't be able to use any magical enhancements, have any buffs cast on it, and can't even benefit from potions.

[Gourtox]

Would the fact that it's immune to GOOD magic balance the immunity to BAD magic, or would it need more to balance it?

It already wouldn't be able to use any magical enhancements, have any buffs cast on it, and can't even benefit from potions.

Being immune to magic seems like a big plus. Alot of things use magic to harm other creatures especially wizards.

[13_CBS]

Hrm...I'm wondering how a community of such beings would defend itself against an attack by magical beasts (like a dragon). Said race might have some trouble surviving, I think, if they keep getting eaten by creatures that don't exist.

[Dagren]

The way you've described it, their immunity to magic extends out from them and affects things around them, like the fighter's magic weapons and armour. It would probably be better if you just gave them unbeatable spell resistance that they couldn't lower. That would make a bit more sense. Also, I really don't like the idea of giving them true seeing, they should maybe be immune to phantasms, but definitely not glamers. Just a few thoughts.

[Gourtox]

The way you've described it, their immunity to magic extends out from them and affects things around them, like the fighter's magic weapons and armour. It would probably be better if you just gave them unbeatable spell resistance that they couldn't lower. That would make a bit more sense. Also, I really don't like the idea of giving them true seeing, they should maybe be immune to phantasms, but definitely not glamers. Just a few thoughts.

Only magic that would affect him. Like he has a permanent anti-magic bubbleish thing.

[Dagren]

Only magic that would affect him. Like he has a permanent anti-magic bubbleish thing.That's the thing though, you've got him immune to magic that doesn't affect him, like the fighter's magic gear. That just affects the fighter. And the Wizard's invisibility affects the wizard. Like I said, a Phantasm effect should probably be shrugged off by a creature immune to magic, but a Glamer effect shouldn't. If his immunity applies to friendly magic too, then it might not be too unbalanced, although it would likely have quite an effect on gameplay. Whether this would ultimately be to his benefit or detriment would largely depend on the situation. Fighting a blaster wizard? Advantage probably to him. Fighting a CoDzilla? Advantage likely to them.

[AbyssKnight]

There's also the Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Protection, and Pierce Magical Concealment feats from Complete Arcane.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

There's also the Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Protection, and Pierce Magical Concealment feats from Complete Arcane.

While true...how does this relate to the race in question? I'm a little confused.

[Faleldir]

Does that include non-SR spells like Grease and orbs?

[AbyssKnight]

Djinn, they provide a mechanical basis and precedent for abilities that would fit this particular race.

Chaotic Mind is another feat to look at, allowing you to ignore insight bonuses to AC and saves and enemies don't get insight bonuses to hit you. Psionic powers frequently give insight bonuses where magic spells would give enhancement bonuses, so converting it to work against spells should not be difficult.

[Al-Ashrad]

The first thing that popped into my head when I saw this was maybe something along the lines of the Yuuzhan Vong (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Yuuzhan_Vong), although I think they can be affected by the Force even though they are outside of it.

[Barbarian MD]

There's a number of examples of things similar: Mat in wheel of time. There's a race of humans in the sword of truth that are outside of magic. And yeah, the star wars race.

With the armor thing (and maybe in a final draft it won't be there) I suppose I was thinking that a magic weave helped prevent the attack from penetrating, and so non-magic guy would just pass through it like it didn't exist. The trouble, as I think about it more, is that you would have to begin defining how magic works: does magical enhancement to armor create some sort of magical weave or does it aid your ability tocdodge an attack, which would then have implications on the non-magic mechanics...

And to the questions about orbs: yes. ALL magic doesn't affect the guy. From orbs to healing potions and everything in between.

[Devils_Advocate]

I've thought of something like this as a punishment from the god of magic. Never being able to use a spell or magic item! But on the plus side, they won't hurt you either.

You'd have to disallow Vow of Poverty, obviously. I'm not sure whether its effects are officially "magical" or not, but you'd have to count them as magic for the purposes of this (meaning that you don't get them).


Being immune to magic seems like a big plus. Alot of things use magic to harm other creatures especially wizards.
Bah. Wizards just use conjurations against magic-immune things. He's not immune to all of the effects of magic, after all, just the ones that directly involve him.


The trouble, as I think about it more, is that you would have to begin defining how magic works
Actually, I don't think that you do. Just follow the basic principle that he and all his attended items interact with everything as if no magic were present. It actually strikes me as rather elegant in its simplicity.


And to the questions about orbs: yes. ALL magic doesn't affect the guy. From orbs to healing potions and everything in between.
But the orbs are (stupidly) non-magical. The spells that create them are magic, but they aren't. Like how the spreading fire from a flaming arrow isn't magic.

[J.Gellert]

Sounds awesome (weren't Dwarfs something like that in AD&D 2nd edition? Bonus to saves vs magic, but can't use magical items unless they are specific for clerics or something?). Now I'm trying to remember which supplement includes Karsites...

I'm just going to add that if they are immune to weapon enhancements, it's going to be a pain to calculate whether or not they are hit every time someone swings at them.

It's going to be very hard playing one at the higher levels, but it'll be interesting.

[ImmortalAer]

Sounds awesome (weren't Dwarfs something like that in AD&D 2nd edition? Bonus to saves vs magic, but can't use magical items unless they are specific for clerics or something?). Now I'm trying to remember which supplement includes Karsites...

I'm just going to add that if they are immune to weapon enhancements, it's going to be a pain to calculate whether or not they are hit every time someone swings at them.

It's going to be very hard playing one at the higher levels, but it'll be interesting.

Not to mention that according to the OP, or one of the later ones, your armour enchancement fails, too. :smalltongue:

[Ripped Shirt Kirk]

There's a number of examples of things similar: Mat in wheel of time. There's a race of humans in the sword of truth that are outside of magic. And yeah, the star wars race.

With the armor thing (and maybe in a final draft it won't be there) I suppose I was thinking that a magic weave helped prevent the attack from penetrating, and so non-magic guy would just pass through it like it didn't exist. The trouble, as I think about it more, is that you would have to begin defining how magic works: does magical enhancement to armor create some sort of magical weave or does it aid your ability tocdodge an attack, which would then have implications on the non-magic mechanics...

And to the questions about orbs: yes. ALL magic doesn't affect the guy. From orbs to healing potions and everything in between.


Heres an idea, how about the DM tips off the PCs that even though the race is immune to direct magic, they can still kill the monster, by shooting a fireball at a pillar that is next to it, or something simaler

P.S. I LOVE SWORD OF TRUTH! (though the tv series sucks)

[Barbarian MD]

P.S. I LOVE SWORD OF TRUTH! (though the tv series sucks)

I used to be a huge fan, but after reading other fantasy, I've come to realize how much SoT ripped off from others. It's almost like reading Eragon... If you've never read it, read a few of the Wheel of Time books (SO MUCH BETTER!)

And yeah, the tv series looked pretty bad...


Back to topic: I didn't realize orbs were like that...

And yeah, calculating things would be a pain. If I get a chance today, I think I may try to write up the basics for the race, and then see what other people think. I guess no one has a clue as to what LA, if any, it should have without a lot of play-testing.

[Gawaeyn]

If you're basing it partially off SoT, they weren't technically a race. They were humans, just afflicted by some messed-up side effect of an enchantment that their ancestor cast on himself and any magic-using descendants he may have.

So, looking at this (and this specifically), I wouldn't make it a race so much as a trait, or feat, or even a flaw. And Mat's human too, unless I'm much mistaken. :smallwink::smalltongue:

[GreatWyrmGold]

Monk's lay on hands? Absolutely nothing, except perhaps a light massage.

Monks don't get lay on hands. Paladins do, though.

[Barbarian MD]

I have no idea why I wrote monk's lay on hands...

[DamnedIrishman]

One might argue that magic resistance wouldn't affect spells which created a mass or energy (like grease or fireball) since by the time it affects the target, it's not made of magic anymore.

If you want to balance such a creature, why not make all spellcasters take a penalty to casting in their presence - making them antimagical rather than just magically resistant. Say, a spellcaster has to take a DC20 spellcraft check just to use a spell when within 10' of them.

[paddyfool]

You could also have a race with an always-on AMF out to 5' or 10', but that could have serious potential to mess with the rest of the party.

[Barbarian MD]

I don't want him to affect other people's use of magic...

I kind of picture this epic magic fight occuring around him, and him being totally oblivious (and thinking all the people waving their hands and shouting in mangled Latin are downright crazy).


You could also have a race with an always-on AMF out to 5' or 10', but that could have serious potential to mess with the rest of the party.

I think this is what I'm going for, except--instead of having a range of 5'--it's only by touch, and even then, doesn't shut down a caster just by touching him, just that he ignores all magical effects that the caster may have up. So he could be touching a caster with one hand, and a caster's headband of intellect with the other, and the caster wouldn't notice a difference.

So with the fighter's armor--it's not that he's shutting down the magical enhancements, it's just that he's bypassing them, because magic doesn't exist for him.

[Dagren]

One might argue that magic resistance wouldn't affect spells which created a mass or energy (like grease or fireball) since by the time it affects the target, it's not made of magic anymore.

If you want to balance such a creature, why not make all spellcasters take a penalty to casting in their presence - making them antimagical rather than just magically resistant. Say, a spellcaster has to take a DC20 spellcraft check just to use a spell when within 10' of them.That could work, although I would like to point out that evocations like fireball are already ruled to be magical in nature by virtue of their interactions with SR and antimagic fields. However IMO there is no justification for making a magic immune creature immune to the orb spells, for example, since they are also already ruled to not be magical in effect.

EDIT:
So with the fighter's armor--it's not that he's shutting down the magical enhancements, it's just that he's bypassing them, because magic doesn't exist for him.See, IMO that's a problem. Magic armour is generally agreed to be enchanted to make it tougher and harder to penetrate with weapons. It's a completely passive effect, which doesn't affect this antimagic-man in the slightest, yet is still neutralised? As for all magic being invisible to him, I can't really get behind that in the slightest.

[DigoDragon]

AMF skin then? I guess such a race isn't going to have spellcasters of their own and any class with SLAs would be crippled a bit.

[Gourtox]

EDIT: See, IMO that's a problem. Magic armour is generally agreed to be enchanted to make it tougher and harder to penetrate with weapons. It's a completely passive effect, which doesn't affect this antimagic-man in the slightest, yet is still neutralised? As for all magic being invisible to him, I can't really get behind that in the slightest.

I think what he wants is a creature that exsists outside of magic. Magic just isn't there. Anything magic enhancement or is magic doesn't effect him or his rolls. He passes right through it and ignores it entirely. Any magic that would affect his rolls is negated for him. I hope that clears it up alittle in case I'm right.

[Dagren]

I think what he wants is a creature that exsists outside of magic. Magic just isn't there. Anything magic enhancement or is magic doesn't effect him or his rolls. He passes right through it and ignores it entirely. Any magic that would affect his rolls is negated for him. I hope that clears it up alittle in case I'm right.Oh, I think I see what he wants. I just disagree that it makes any sense. I would either give him magic immunity a la golems, or an antimagic field that covers just his space. (Maybe rule that it also covers anyone he attacks or that attacks him. That would give something pretty similar to what he's saying while, you know, actually making at least a little sense)

EDIT: Obviously, that second one would be if you want his aura of antimagic to extend out to affect others, which seems to be the case.

[Barbarian MD]

I think that, for purposes of this character being useful AT ALL at higher levels, he would need to bypass magical enhancements on his enemy's armor. Otherwise, he'd be a (for example) +15 BAB fighter with a +4 strength bonus and a +1 MWK sword. So a +20 modifier to his attack rolls. You add enough magical AC enhancements on a level 15 enemy, and you now have an IMPOSSIBLY high AC for him to breach.

But yeah, I think you guys are getting what I'm trying to accomplish with this race now. Gourtox summed it up perfectly.

[Dagren]

I think that, for purposes of this character being useful AT ALL at higher levels, he would need to bypass magical enhancements on his enemy's armor. Otherwise, he'd be a (for example) +15 BAB fighter with a +4 strength bonus and a +1 MWK sword. So a +20 modifier to his attack rolls. You add enough magical AC enhancements on a level 15 enemy, and you now have an IMPOSSIBLY high AC for him to breach.

But yeah, I think you guys are getting what I'm trying to accomplish with this race now. Gourtox summed it up perfectly.Oh, I got it more or less from the start. But yeah, I think what I said about giving him his own personal antimagic field last post would probably do it fairly well, since if you make it slightly eminating it would affect his enemy's magic gear too. Alternatively, you could make it just skin-deep and allow him to use magic arms and armour himself, provided they don't affect him directly. (Like healing or buffing himself, for example) Both these ways would keep the magic arms/armour balance between him and his enemy, while being (IMO) at least a little logical. (It may just be me, but they also seem to define what's going on a little better, making judgement calls as to what the interaction between it and the variety of circumstances you'd get in actual gameplay a bit easier)

[Rion]

Do I remember incorrectly, or aren't armour/weapon enchantments already negated in anti-magic zones? So his armour and weapon enchantments are decidedly magic, and a person ignoring magic would ignore them too.

[Dagren]

Do I remember incorrectly, or aren't armour/weapon enchantments already negated in anti-magic zones? So his armour and weapon enchantments are decidedly magic, and a person ignoring magic would ignore them too.Well, like I said, that depends on whether you want his "zone of null-mana", or whatever cheesy name you want to call it, to eminate from him or not. It could be done either way so long as it's consistent IMO.

[Mewtarthio]

It's neither, as far as I can tell. Basically, this guy gets several powers:

Immunity to magic, as per the trait
Conjured materials are imperceptible and intangible to him
Magically enhanced attacks provide no bonuses for or against him
Magical defenses do not affect him or his attacks


It's not an anti-magic field. You cannot attempt to define it as a variant thereof. Simply put, magic has no effect on this guy whatsoever.

[Dagren]

It's not an anti-magic field. You cannot attempt to define it as a variant thereof. Simply put, magic has no effect on this guy whatsoever.You forgot permanent, unlimited range true seeing(!). And magic having no effect on you is pretty much what an antimagic field is.

[13_CBS]

Hrm...I'm wondering how a community of such beings would defend itself against an attack by magical beasts (like a dragon). Said race might have some trouble surviving, I think, if they keep getting eaten by creatures that don't exist.

This post was ignored, so I bring this up once again:

If it's an entire race that can't see any magical creature, then how did it defend itself from magical creatures that attacked its villages?

[Barbarian MD]

So dragons are magical creatures? As in, they're made of magic? I don't quite follow. If they enter an anti-magic field, they still exist...

If they have physical bodies, then yes, they would be able to interact with this not-yet-designed-race, and the race should be able to see and interact with them.

I thought you were making a joke about Discworld originally, where dragons only exist because of magic and the imagination.

[shadowfox]

Props for fluff, and very interesting. Not something that I'd allow in one of my campaigns, however, but I'd love to try it out in someone else's (so far).

At any rate, I have a couple questions in defining "magic."

What about supernatural abilities? Such abilities are negated in antimagic fields; would the same apply to them?
What about Truenaming? Yes, it's magic, but it is pretty much the universe itself being rewritten, if on a very small scale (relative to the size of the universe).
So, magic can't affect them. However, can magic, in effect, flow through them? (Can a member of this race be used as a springboard in Chain Lightning (although not an ideal target, it would allow fora larger spread), or would it be an invalid target, taking out of the mechanics of it entirely?)


The one thing that I see is that this race could effectively be barred from classes, or players would impose bans on classes because it's simply not worth it. For example: Paladins. Hands-down, they lose their spellcasting ability. Well, if they can use supernatural abilities, then there are still options, like using the Variant Paladin (why not "give up" spells that you can't use anyway?) However, if Supernatural effect cannot be channeled through them, then they can only gain 2 abilities from the Paladin class (which is, without a doubt, a terrible investment of levels).

Also, by saying "magic," you give a broad definition, which would leave it up to interpretation (which can be good, but can also be bad).

[Flickerdart]

Bunch of Summoned creatures (that he can't see or touch?) cave in the roof on him, for example. That's the only way they can stop the race...that, and Disintegrating the floor under one of them a few times. Or picking up a mundane weapon and smacking them around with it (they can't see or touch the wielder!).

[Barbarian MD]

Hmmm... Interesting questions. Particularly the one of picking up a weapon and smacking him with it. But this is why I wanted your thoughts--to see what kind of consequences such a homebrew would have on a game.

I think he'd definitely be subject to cave-ins (again, he'd HAVE to be in a party) Again: role-play would be hilarious:

Look, those summoned creatures are trying to cave in the roof!
What summoned creatures?
Those, right there! Look, here comes a rock.
That's odd. I don't feel any earthquakes. Must be shoddy construction.
They're! Right! There! *grabs guy and drags him to safety*

Summoned creatures with weapons... He'd certainly see the weapon. The blade would be able to strike him. But he can't really get in a grapple check with something that doesn't exist for him. Would he be able to just reach up and attempt to grab the weapon, in effect passing through the magical creature, like a snatch attempt at an ioun stone?


I think the simplest rule (regarding supernatural/extraordinary abilities) would be to follow the rules for an anti-magic field (with some logic- [a relative word] appropriate modifications). And yeah, you'd definitely need to rework some of the classes. Sorceror/Wizard/Druid would be out. True-naming sounds like it'd be okay, but I've never played with any truenamers so I'm not really sure. Fighter/Barbarian/most of the monk/Rogue/spell-less Paladin. You'd need to reflavor a Cleric and Bard.


EDIT: As to chain-effects. I feel like the chain effect would fizzle when it came to him.

[Owrtho]

This seems like it could be an interesting idea. However, if I were to do it I would make note that summons are not inherently beings of magic themselves (at least I don't think they are last I checked, unless you summon something that always is), they are beings that are magically moved from somewhere else to the current location (hence why they are called summons and not magically crafted beings or some such). As such the anti magic person would perceive them normally. This would also be true of constructs and animated dead as they are non magical matter being manipulated by magic. Magically manipulated objects would effect them like anyone else (except for if they had other effects they did to their target or those nearby). Magically enhanced items would function normally with him as long as they didn't try to use magic on him (thus he wouldn't ignore magical enhancements to armor or weapons and could use such things himself). His equipment most likely would not be anti magic so would still be block by magic shields (he couldn't ignore those unless he attacked unarmed, and I'm referring to ones that are made of magic energy, not real shields that are enhanced by magic).

Also, I can't help but think it would be funny for one to unwittingly wed a Medusa-like creature and not be able to understand why everyone he introduces his wife to runs off leaving a statue of themselves never to be heard from again.

Owrtho

[Foryn Gilnith]

Also, I can't help but think it would be funny for one to unwittingly wed a Medusa-like creature and not be able to understand why everyone he introduces his wife to runs off leaving a statue of themselves never to be heard from again.

Owrtho

Petrifying Gaze is a supernatural ability, like a dragon's fire breath. It's not real magic, IIRC.

[Black Mage]

Sounds like a race, or blood-line from a series of books by Terry Goodkind. The were called holes in the world I believe (been a little while since I read the books), but they were completely immune and unaffected by all magic, even items wouldn't work for them and only functioned as a normal item of that type. Magical creatures could still affect them (so long as they are solid, granted nothing resembling an ethereal creature appears in the books, at least not when this race comes up, but I'd say that something that is insubstantial would have no effect on them). But basically, any magical effect does nothing to them, and I don't believe they can even see said effects. They are just regular humans, but with a complete magic immunity, and inability to cast magic of course.

In D&D terms, they'd likely be immune to any spell-like ability or supernatural ability. If the ability affects the environment permanently, they can be affected...like a spell that creates a 100 ft. hole in the ground, the person would still fall down and take falling damage.

[shadowfox]

Petrifying Gaze is a supernatural ability, like a dragon's fire breath. It's not real magic, IIRC.

But we're also counting this race's immunity to magic, in terms of what classifies as "magic," as though it was an anti-magic field. Supernatural abilities fall under the "nulled" column.

[Owrtho]

Petrifying Gaze is a supernatural ability, like a dragon's fire breath. It's not real magic, IIRC.

I seem to recall that supernatural abilities are effected by anti magic fields. As such I wouldn't expect them to effect this race. At least not the ones that like petrifying gaze. A supernatural ability to breathe fire might if the fire was non-magic in nature and just required supernatural means to breathe it.

edit: And someone responded while I was doing so...

Owrtho