It has begun lvl 20 wizard vs Elminster!

[Raenir Salazar]

According to the Rules Compendium, yes. If you're ignoring the Rules Compendium, then no.

Can I get a Link?

[Wings of Peace]

Does Elminster have Spellstoway: Timestop as a feat? If not just cast timestop enhanced with Rainbow falls then drop 3d4 stored lightning bolts.

[Douglas]

Can I get a Link?
Not legally, Rules Compendium isn't Open Game Content. I think giving you a one sentence quote from page 85 is fair use, though, so:


Activating a scroll takes the same amount of time as the casting time of the spell stored on the scroll and provokes attacks of opportunity as spellcasting does.

[JeminiZero]

Orb #1 Rolls: Vs Leonals SR: http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2124502/ (28)

Orb #1 vs Elminster:

Energy Drain (I don't think it has Spell Resistance Yes)
Feeblemind 32
Prismatic Spray 17
Irrestible Dance 28


Shouldn't Supernatural Abilities automatically ignore SR?

Also, it might be a bit late to mention this, but in case Elminster is packing Ray Deflection, a Lens of Ray Widening might help >_>

[Raenir Salazar]

Hrrm lemme check.

[JeminiZero]

From the SRD (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Supernatural_Ability).



Supernatural abilities of either type are not subject to spell resistance nor power resistance.

[Raenir Salazar]

Alrighty so I got my Simulacrum to summon another Hectadoneires named Bob and I casted a AMF on myself, followed by a quickened dimensional door back to 5' from Elminster and then a prismatic sphere encasing us. with a 5' block between me and him.

[Douglas]

Dimension Door ends your turn. After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionDoor.htm) Even with Quicken, if you want to cast another spell afterwords you will have to use Teleport instead.

[Raenir Salazar]

is the second effect of Chaos Maw a mind effecting effect? Hes trying to use it on my Hectawhata.

[Dagren]

is the second effect of Chaos Maw a mind effecting effect? Hes trying to use it on my Hectawhata.If you're thinking of Maw of Chaos, it doesn't matter. Hecatoncheires has the [Chaotic] subtype, rendering it immune to the spell.

[Raenir Salazar]

If you're thinking of Maw of Chaos, it doesn't matter. Hecatoncheires has the [Chaotic] subtype, rendering it immune to the spell.

Isn't that just the damage portion? The point is I wanna be able to summon the second Hectawhata.

[Arakune]

Isn't that just the damage portion? The point is I wanna be able to summon the second Hectawhata.

Then in this case they are immune to it. Probably. Where's the beholder when we need him :smallfurious: ?!

please don't kill me ... :(

[Raenir Salazar]

But it doesn't have "[Mind Affecting]" as part of the spell description, however this is the Maw from magic of Faerun which i think is the 3.0 version.

[Deth Muncher]

Then in this case they are immune to it. Probably. Where's the beholder when we need him :smallfurious: ?!

please don't kill me ... :(

Uh oh, I hear the Wizards' Intellectual Property Police coming for you.


Just say Candlejack! That's much bett

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Hate to spoil it to you but Hecatoncheires are abominations. This means Divine Rank 0 and are thus not subject to being called (unless they want to be) and even if you do call/summon them, you can never control them.

[Flickerdart]

Hate to spoil it to you but Hecatoncheires are abominations. This means Divine Rank 0 and are thus not subject to being called (unless they want to be) and even if you do call/summon them, you can never control them.
Maybe they just really want to wail on Elminster?

[Raenir Salazar]

I'm not "summoning" it I'm calling it via the (sp) from a Simulacrum version of one, RAW it gets called, also in the Epic Level handbook says nothing about it being Divine rank 0.

Also it seems the 3.5 version of Maw of Chaos makes Chaos monsters immune so I'm good unless he rules we're only using the 3.0 one for some wierd reason.

[Flickerdart]

I'm not "summoning" it I'm calling it via the (sp) from a Simulacrum version of one, RAW it gets called, also in the Epic Level handbook says nothing about it being Divine rank 0.

All Abominations are DR0. What I can't find is the rule preventing DR0 creatures from being called.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I'm not "summoning" it I'm calling it via the (sp) from a Simulacrum version of one, RAW it gets called, also in the Epic Level handbook says nothing about it being Divine rank 0.

On the contrary:


Abomination Traits

All abominations are born directly (or indirectly) from a god and some lesser creature (or idea), but none are favored, wanted, or loved. Still, they all share a tiny spark of deific energy, which grants them the qualities described in below. (Note: deity rules are used, abominations are rank 0 deities.)

Here's the link. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm)

[Raenir Salazar]

I think its rather moot as the thing undoubtably wants to kill all creation out of jealousy at the very least why wouldn't it want to be called to wham on Elminster and burn the world?

[Dagren]

Isn't that just the damage portion? The point is I wanna be able to summon the second Hectawhata.Maw of Chaos: "Creatures with the Chaotic subtype are unaffected by this spell". The whole spell, not just the damage. That's from the Spell Compendium.

[Raenir Salazar]

Maw of Chaos: "Creatures with the Chaotic subtype are unaffected by this spell". The whole spell, not just the damage. That's from the Spell Compendium.

Right I was looking at the 3.0 version, the 3.5 version makes me happy :D

[Belial_the_Leveler]

I think its rather moot as the thing undoubtably wants to kill all creation out of jealousy at the very least why wouldn't it want to be called to wham on Elminster and burn the world?
You call it, it kills you for fun. Then it goes off to kill the rest of Creation.

[Raenir Salazar]

It got summoned but then the DM had Elminster shapechange into a 200' by 200' by 200' of Adamantium and crushed it.

Is he able to do that with shapechange?

Apparently for 4000000d6 damage.

[Doc Roc]

Rules are never moot just because you, as a player, want them to be.


Of course he's not.

[quick_comment]

This entire fight seems like one huge cluster****, with nobody involved in it actually knowing the rules, or how to play a high level wizard.

[Raenir Salazar]

This entire fight seems like one huge cluster****, with nobody involved in it actually knowing the rules, or how to play a high level wizard.

Can someone point out to me then please WHY he cannot turn into a 200' high by 200 wide by 200 foot long cube of adamantium? Its apparently a 25HD inamimate object. Though I don't know the specifics.

Also I had my dimensional door changed to a teleport.



// Ok, summon your badass hecatoncheire, it's gonna die anyway... Disregard previous line of action, Hecatoncheire is primary target.

*couatl goes ethereal and moves closer to Barukka*

*Elminster uses Silver Fire to negate the Antimagic Field*

*Elminster casts Quickened Time Stop from scroll using Greater Metamagic Rod #2 - 1 daily use left*
http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2125733/

*TIME STOP - Round #1*
*Elminster activates Fly using Symbul's Spell Matrix as a free action*
*Elminster uses his pipe to Dimensional Door over the big bad Hecatoncheire - 8 daily uses left*

*TIME STOP - Round #2*
*Elminster casts Shapechange from scroll and changes into a 200'x200'x200' block of Adamantium*
*Elminster carefully positions himself so that he's floating over the big bad Hecatoncheire AND the familiar*

*TIME STOP - Round #3*
*Elminster readies and action*

*As soon as Time Stop ends*
*Elminster falls on the two dudes. Assuming adamantium weights only 100 lbs per cubic foot, Elminster deals 4000000d6 damage. Should I roll?*

*Barukka has the unhealty sensation that the cube is looking at him now*


Also ultimately a Hectoncheires CAN SUMMON ONE OTHER Hectoncheires, a Simulacrum retains ALL of the abilities of what I copied. I would argue that it would accept the call because A) It thinks a real one is calling it B) it probably wants to kill stuff.

Then its up to the DM if it goes after me a weaker lvl 20 wizard or after a Chosen of the Goddess of Magic because it HATES Gods and all who do stuff with em.

Also All I did with the AMF earlier is leave a whole for myself as I'm allowed to do so. Please explain where else rules have gone awry.

[Nohwl]

if you are going to break the rules, why not just roll a d20 and tell the dm that you kill elminster?

edit- i have an avatar now

[Flickerdart]

An inanimate object doesn't have HD. It's not a creature. Shapechange doesn't make you into one.

Shapechange must make you into 1) a creature and b) one that is non-unique. Even if there WAS a 200m^3 block of adamantine somewhere, you'd need at least two before you could Shapechange into one.

[Doc Roc]

Polymorph Any Object could do that, though I do not think you could get the hugeness that y-----------, but then... he'd...... just be a cube of adamantine until the--------- duration ran out. ..... Um... I


This is ridiculous. I out.

[Raenir Salazar]

Polymorph Any Object could do that, though I do not think you could get the hugeness that y-----------, but then... he'd...... just be a cube of adamantine until the--------- duration ran out. ..... Um... I


This is ridiculous. I out.

Wait, I'm disputing it now. I need your help to find evidence to help me dispute it.

whats the ----------- about? what does the multiple dashes mean.

[quick_comment]

Wait, I'm disputing it now. I need your help to find evidence to help me dispute it.

whats the ----------- about? what does the multiple dashes mean.

Its not any worse than your ridiculous abuse of metamagic effect to persist things that arent persistable.

Or your cheating to call things that arent callable.



If I were your GM, I would just say that the instant you started summoning demi-gods, mystra kills you, no save.

[tyckspoon]

Can someone point out to me then please WHY he cannot turn into a 200' high by 200 wide by 200 foot long cube of adamantium? Its apparently a 25HD inamimate object. Though I don't know the specifics.


The simplest reason is that inanimate objects are not creatures, which is what Shapechange requires you to turn into (Polymorph Any Object can turn you into an object, but PAO'ing yourself into a mindless brick of metal is a really bad idea.) The closest thing to what he's doing would be to Shapechange into a Gargantuan Animated Object, which will have a similar effect but is much less of a 'rocks fall' thing.

It should be noted that even if he persists in this claim, he hasn't actually killed the Hecatoncheire- Big Rocks of Adamantium don't bypass its regeneration, so it's going to be recovering at the rate of 90 hp a turn (regen+fast healing). Eventually it's going to wake up.

[Raenir Salazar]

Except it IS callable its right there! In the description! It can summon one of it-selves like that! So of course its callable. It may not WANT to be called if it KNEW who was calling it but it DOESN'T.



Summon Hecatoncheires (Sp)

A hecatoncheires can summon one other hecatoncheires once per day, though is loath to do so because then it will be similarly obligated to answer its sibling’s summoning. A summoned hecatoncheires cannot use its summoning power while “summoned.”


It's "Special" ability under its SLA's.

Also Mystra CANT KILL MORTALS AT A WHIM OR REMOVE THEIR MAGIC, Ao ruled that SHE CAN'T to control her powers.

[Raenir Salazar]

The simplest reason is that inanimate objects are not creatures, which is what Shapechange requires you to turn into (Polymorph Any Object can turn you into an object, but PAO'ing yourself into a mindless brick of metal is a really bad idea.) The closest thing to what he's doing would be to Shapechange into a Gargantuan Animated Object, which will have a similar effect but is much less of a 'rocks fall' thing.

It should be noted that even if he persists in this claim, he hasn't actually killed the Hecatoncheire- Big Rocks of Adamantium don't bypass its regeneration, so it's going to be recovering at the rate of 90 hp a turn (regen+fast healing). Eventually it's going to wake up.

So its one of those creatures that require a Wish to kill then?

[Doc Roc]

At this point, I'd comfortably rule that you've annoyed Ao, but also pleased him, so he uses you as breeding stock for a new race of dragons. Against your will. In spite of your gender.

[quick_comment]

Except it IS callable its right there! In the description! It can summon one of it-selves like that! So of course its callable. It may not WANT to be called if it KNEW who was calling it but it DOESN'T.



It's "Special" ability under its SLA's.

Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature. The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only one-half of the real creature’s levels or Hit Dice (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD). You can’t create a simulacrum of a creature whose Hit Dice or levels exceed twice your caster level. You must make a Disguise check when you cast the spell to determine how good the likeness is. A creature familiar with the original might detect the ruse with a successful Spot check (opposed by the caster’s Disguise check) or a DC 20 Sense Motive check.

At all times the simulacrum remains under your absolute command. No special telepathic link exists, so command must be exercised in some other manner. A simulacrum has no ability to become more powerful. It cannot increase its level or abilities. If reduced to 0 hit points or otherwise destroyed, it reverts to snow and melts instantly into nothingness. A complex process requiring at least 24 hours, 100 gp per hit point, and a fully equipped magical laboratory can repair damage to a simulacrum.

First off, you better be level 19 now, because you had to burn 5200 xp to simulacrum the thing. You needded a caster level of at least 26 to actually create it to start with. You were only able to do this by cheating with your bead of karma.

And even then, its only 26 hit dice, which means it does not have all the special abilities. Particularly, I dont see why a full grown Hecatoncheires would answer the summons of a half HD one.

And even if Mystra cant smite you, nothing stops her from casting sending and asking all her chosen, the knights of the weave and the knights of the mystic fire all teleport right on top of you.

[Raenir Salazar]

At this point, I'd comfortably rule that you've annoyed Ao, but also pleased him, so he uses you as breeding stock for a new race of dragons. Against your will. In spite of your gender.

Ao is also possibly the paragon manifestation of True Neutral, he doesn't care what mortals do or about Mortals so long as the gods maintain their duties.

[Raenir Salazar]

First off, you better be level 19 now, because you had to burn 5200 xp to simulacrum the thing. You needded a caster level of at least 26 to actually create it to start with. You were only able to do this by cheating with your bead of karma.

And even then, its only 26 hit dice, which means it does not have all the special abilities. Particularly, I dont see why a full grown Hecatoncheires would answer the summons of a half HD one.

A) still level 20 because we were both given half XP to the next level for xp burning things.

B) Its SLA are not tied to its HD.

C) How does the one thats being called KNOW the HD of whats calling it? Why would it care? Chaotic Evil, it can kill things now.

[Doc Roc]

Ao is also possibly the paragon manifestation of True Neutral, he doesn't care what mortals do or about Mortals so long as the gods maintain their duties.

While not common knowledge, Ao can be swayed by sufficiently saucy sorceresses. On rare occasion he extends this to ye olde weezards.


I think I just rule 34'd Elminster\Ao slash. I hope the community can forgive me.

[quick_comment]

A) still level 20 because we were both given half XP to the next level for xp burning things.

B) Its SLA are not tied to its HD.

C) How does the one thats being called KNOW the HD of whats calling it? Why would it care? Chaotic Evil, it can kill things now.

B) Yes they are.


It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only one-half of the real creature’s levels or Hit Dice (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD).

It does not get all the special abilities of a full heta. Instead, it gets the abilities of something that has progressed 26 levels in a heta savage progression. Reduced ability scores, reduced special abilities, reduced hit dice.

C) Because as a god-slaying abomination, it knows that the thing trying to summon it is a mere mockery of its power. In fact, it probably appears and kills you first for trying to use it. Also note that the summoned hecatoncheires isnt under the control of the summoning one. In fact, it almost certainly attacks you first.

[Raenir Salazar]

Specifically whats the details about its regeneration 40, Fast healing 50? Assuming he took 400,000 damage does that mean hes at -400,000 and after a certain amount of time he will wake up? Or does -damage cap out at -10? What are my options to quickly heal him? Limited Wish?

[Nohwl]

shove its head in a bucket of water.

[quick_comment]

Specifically whats the details about its regeneration 40, Fast healing 50? Assuming he took 400,000 damage does that mean hes at -400,000 and after a certain amount of time he will wake up? Or does -damage cap out at -10? What are my options to quickly heal him? Limited Wish?

You have no options to heal him, because there is no chance you will beat his SR.

[Raenir Salazar]

You have no options to heal him, because there is no chance you will beat his SR.

Unless the spell is harmless and allows you to heal him?

[quick_comment]

Unless the spell is harmless and allows you to heal him?

Harmless spells that check SR still check SR.

Also, since your abomination is only 26 HD, even if you give it all the other abilities, as per the top of the page on abominations, it is small sized with
Str 26-27 Dex 20-21 Con 20-21

[Dagren]

Unless the spell is harmless and allows you to heal him?No, healing spells generally allow SR, which must be actively lowered, unlike a saving throw. If the DM turns him into a sentient block of adamantium that can fly though, when it's explicitly against the rules, I think it's a good indicator that he's not playing fair. And I don't think I need to tell you that if he's pulling DM fiat, you aren't going to win.

[quick_comment]

No, healing spells generally allow SR, which must be actively lowered, unlike a saving throw. If the DM turns him into a sentient block of adamantium that can fly though, when it's explicitly against the rules, I think it's a good indicator that he's not playing fair. And I don't think I need to tell you that if he's pulling DM fiat, you aren't going to win.

Considering that neither of them know the rules, I think its ok. Besides, you can shapechange into an animated block of adamantium, because it is a creature.

[Raenir Salazar]

Considering that neither of them know the rules, I think its ok. Besides, you can shapechange into an animated block of adamantium, because it is a creature.

Okay so HE CAN turn into a animated block then?

What if I do the same? I fly over ontop of him, land, shapechange into the SAME block and grapple him with gravity? He wouldn't be able to move right and once he dismissed the cube he would be crushed right?

[Krrth]

Elminster is an epic level wizard (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Elminster_Aumar). If he wants to turn himself into a flying block of adamantium, I'm sure he could have researched an epic spell to do that.

He's a 35th level character. Against a 20th.

[Raenir Salazar]

Elminster is an epic level wizard (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Elminster_Aumar). If he wants to turn himself into a flying block of adamantium, I'm sure he could have researched an epic spell to do that.

He's a 35th level character. Against a 20th.

He doesn't have epic spellcasting.

[Flickerdart]

Okay so HE CAN turn into a animated block then?

What if I do the same? I fly over ontop of him, land, shapechange into the SAME block and grapple him with gravity? He wouldn't be able to move right and once he dismissed the cube he would be crushed right?
Actually, if the block were a creature, it'd have STR -, and thus auto-fail STR checks. Meaning it can't grapple.

[Krrth]

He doesn't have epic spellcasting.

According to that link he does.

[Raenir Salazar]

You could only go up to a gargantuan block, he can be colossal.

How come? And what it still be enough to keep him from moving?

Does Mystras silverfire work inside of a AMF?

Using epic level handbook not your link.

[quick_comment]

How come? And what it still be enough to keep him from moving?

Does Mystras silverfire work inside of a AMF?

Using epic level handbook not your link.

Because colossal animated objects have 32 HD.

[tyckspoon]

Considering that neither of them know the rules, I think its ok. Besides, you can shapechange into an animated block of adamantium, because it is a creature.

Sure, it just won't be a 200-foot cube. Shapechange also requires that your size be between Fine and Colossal and that the form have no more than 25HD. A 200-foot cube is off the size chart and into the 'virtual' size categories (Colossal++, I think, would be its size) and as an Animated Object would probably have around 100 HD. The largest Animated Object you can Shapechange to would be Gargantuan, which weighs up to 125 tons.. still 1250d6 worth of damage if dropped from at least 10 feet up, tho. But only on a 20 foot space, which means there are some ways to escape it- you can probably Abrupt Jaunt out from under, or have your god-slaying abomination buddy just catch the thing.

[woodenbandman]

I think he used shrink object on a colossal ++ block and then summoned it to you then dismissed the spell. And there's a hole in the middle that he hides in.

[Raenir Salazar]

Sure, it just won't be a 200-foot cube. Shapechange also requires that your size be between Fine and Colossal and that the form have no more than 25HD. A 200-foot cube is off the size chart and into the 'virtual' size categories (Colossal++, I think, would be its size) and as an Animated Object would probably have around 100 HD. The largest Animated Object you can Shapechange to would be Gargantuan, which weighs up to 125 tons.. still 1250d6 worth of damage if dropped from at least 10 feet up, tho. But only on a 20 foot space, which means there are some ways to escape it- you can probably Abrupt Jaunt out from under, or have your god-slaying abomination buddy just catch the thing.

Where can I find the size charts and where is the damage/pounds chart?

[quick_comment]

Where can I find the size charts and where is the damage/pounds chart?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=dnd+animated+object

[Raenir Salazar]

k, but how much space/what are the dimensions of gargantuan/colossol etc creatures?

What are the rules for catching it?

[Krrth]

How come? And what it still be enough to keep him from moving?

Does Mystras silverfire work inside of a AMF?

Using epic level handbook not your link.

As far as I know, Silver Fire does indeed work inside an AMF. In fact, I seem to recall it removes dead magic zones.

So what does the Epic Level handbook say about his levels? If any combination of spellcasting class goes above 20, he has epic casting.

Although to be fair, if you are going to summon (or call) god killing abominations of nature, there's no reason the other chosen of Mystra shouldn't get involved.

[Raenir Salazar]

How much damage would his DR 60/+12 soak up from the 1250d6? And how do catching rules work?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

How much damage would his DR 60/+12 soak up from the 1250d6? And how do catching rules work?

Ummm...60? That seems like the answer right there. That's how DR works.

[Krrth]

How much damage would his DR 60/+12 soak up from the 1250d6? And how do catching rules work?


60 points. As far as I know, there are no catching rules.


edit: Ninja'd

[Raenir Salazar]

Would this work, I cast AMF and shape it so its a solid wall of 5'cubes below my feet, then fly over ontop of Elminster whose a cube with my AMF going through him would this negate his shapechange and then I turn myself into a gargantuan object and proceed to let myself fall ontop of him crushing him?

[Krrth]

Would this work, I cast AMF and shape it so its a solid wall of 5'cubes below my feet, then fly over ontop of Elminster whose a cube with my AMF going through him would this negate his shapechange and then I turn myself into a gargantuan object and proceed to let myself fall ontop of him crushing him?

No. If it negates his shapeshift, it would negate yours.

[Raenir Salazar]

even if its BELOW me? I turn it from its doom like emanation into a flat wall facing the ground below my feet?

[quick_comment]

even if its BELOW me? I turn it from its doom like emanation into a flat wall facing the ground below my feet?

How do you plan to keep him in the AMF, and touch him without you also being in the AMF?

[Raenir Salazar]

Ild figure Im on top, the AMF touches him his is negated, I turn intoa cube I start to fall and by the time the AMF is nolonger touching him ie is now in the ground itself he should already be splat.

[Krrth]

Ild figure Im on top, the AMF touches him his is negated, I turn intoa cube I start to fall and by the time the AMF is nolonger touching him ie is now in the ground itself he should already be splat.

Nope. As I recall, AMF supresses ongoing spells but doesn't end them. Thus, once your AMF leaves, his Shapeshift returns.


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm

[Dacia Brabant]

Actually its DR is 20/good and epic and cold iron, if you're talking about the Hecatoncheires. And yeah it's going to be recouping 90 hp per round (or 50 if any of the damage had been lethal to it, which it wasn't).


So what does the Epic Level handbook say about his levels? If any combination of spellcasting class goes above 20, he has epic casting.


He may have epic levels in his casting class, but he doesn't have the feat Epic Spellcasting, which is what is needed to develop and cast Epic Spells, otherwise known as "I Win D&D Forever" spells. I'd simply call that an oversight by the designer though since it doesn't make sense in-game for him not to have it.


Ild figure Im on top, the AMF touches him his is negated, I turn intoa cube I start to fall and by the time the AMF is nolonger touching him ie is now in the ground itself he should already be splat.

You're still having to occupy the same square as him, which means an area effect in your space (in this case, a hole in a AMF) is going to be in his space too. So his Shapechange wouldn't be suppressed if yours isn't.

[Raenir Salazar]

K ill have to try Disjunction then and then drop on him. I can still quicken something, what should I try doing.

Also does the Summon on the Hecatoncheires have a duration?

[quick_comment]

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/facepalm.jpg

[Raenir Salazar]

k, Disjunction, then Quicken Shadow Evocation (Greater) for a Bigsby Spell to grapple him and then what?

[Krrth]

He may have epic levels in his casting class, but he doesn't have the feat Epic Spellcasting, which is what is needed to develop and cast Epic Spells, otherwise known as "I Win D&D Forever" spells. I'd simply call that an oversight by the designer though since it doesn't make sense in-game for him not to have it.

True. The stats I see have him having craft epic magic item. Of course, he's also immune to timestop.

Would you consider disjunction as duplicating dispel magic? If so, he's immune to it.

[Dacia Brabant]

K ill have to try Disjunction then and then drop on him. I can still quicken something, what should I try doing.

Also does the Summon on the Hecatoncheires have a duration?

According to the listing under Abomination Traits, their summons last for 1 hour.

And at this point I think you should just cast Summon Bus Bigger Fish on him. Or rather, he should cast it on you. :smalltongue:

[Krrth]

k, Disjunction, then Quicken Shadow Evocation (Greater) for a Bigsby Spell to grapple him and then what?

You may want to be very, very careful about using Disjunction. If he counters it (and I would), his Counterspell Mastery lets him redirect it at you.

edit: No, he can't since it's area effect. However, it specifies it works like dispel magi, which he is immune to.

[JeminiZero]

Maybe argue that there is a 20d6 cap on falling damage (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Falling_damage)? Seriously, WTF? An animated adamantium block? Your DM must be getting desperate. Its like hes starting to give Elminster back his plot armor.

Also, the text shapechange (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Shapechange) specifies that you can only assume the form of a "nonunique creature". I'm not sure if an animated block of adamantium counts as "nonunique".

Otherwise:
1) Argue that the moment elminster pulled it, you are entitled to a knowledge roll to find out more about an animated adamantium block. And if your roll exceeds a certain DC you should have ALL the stats (for the block although not necessarily for elminster) since it is "non-unique" (i.e. you likely have readup everything about it at some point). Since its a construct, you should roll knowledge arcane.
2) With the stats in hand, you can then better plan how to kill it. If it has finite damage reduction (and no regen), you can copy the trick, fall on it yourself, deal 1250d6 damage to it and kill it.
3) Thats assuming that Elminster doesn't have some kind of rubbish that negates 1000s of points of falling damage

[Raenir Salazar]

Hes a friggin 200' block of adamantium, countering requires a ready action.

But i have 2 standard actions per turn, what should I try throwing at him to ifnish him off? Hope the grapple works and turn into something big and scary that can maul him?

[Krrth]

Maybe argue that there is a 20d6 cap on falling damage (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Falling_damage)? Seriously, WTF? An animated adamantium block? Your DM must be getting desperate. Its like hes starting to give Elminster back his plot armor.

Also, the text shapechange (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Shapechange) specifies that you can only assume the form of a "nonunique creature". I'm not sure if an animated block of adamantium counts as "nonunique".

Otherwise:
1) Argue that the moment elminster pulled it, you are entitled to a knowledge roll to find out more about an animated adamantium block. And if your roll exceeds a certain DC you should have all the stats (for the block although not necessarily for elminster). Since its a construct, you should roll knowledge arcane.
2) With the stats in hand, you can then better plan how to kill it. If it has finite damage reduction (and no regen), you can copy the trick, fall on it yourself, deal 1250d6 damage to it and kill it.
3) Thats assuming that Elminster doesn't have some kind of rubbish that negates 1000s of points of falling damage
Quickened teleport without error and Dimension door.

To be fair, I believe the DM only pulled out the flying block of adamantium when the OP pulled out summoning divine rank zero epic level monsters.




edit: to the OP: Check his stat block. He wears a ring of Counterspelling.

[The Glyphstone]

You may want to be very, very careful about using Disjunction. If he counters it (and I would), his Counterspell Mastery lets him redirect it at you.

edit: No, he can't since it's area effect. However, it specifies it works like dispel magi, which he is immune to.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v507/Overkil/morbo2.jpg
MASTERY OF COUNTERSPELLING DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!!!

Mastery of Counterspelling functions as Spell Turning. Spell Turning cannot redirect Area spells. Disjunction is an Area spell.

Edit: Bah, you caught your own mistake before I posted...still, every thread is better with the addition of Morbo.

[Krrth]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v507/Overkil/morbo2.jpg
MASTERY OF COUNTERSPELLING DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!!!

Mastery of Counterspelling functions as Spell Turning. Spell Turning cannot redirect Area spells. Disjunction is an Area spell.

Edit: Bah, you caught your own mistake before I posted...

Yep. As soon as I posted it I knew I had forgotten something.


edit: It's a moot point anyways. Since disjunction specifies it works like dispel magic, and he's immune to any effect that duplicates dispel magic....

[Magentawolf]

This thread is just an absolute train wreck. It's impossible to watch, and yet... so seductive in its idiocy.

[Raenir Salazar]

his immunities are randomized, hemay not be immune to it, I know he rolled a 1d100 to see if his artifact went kaboom.

[JeminiZero]

Quickened teleport without error and Dimension door.


And that increases falling damage past the 20d6 cap? Or were you addressing something else?



To be fair, I believe the DM only pulled out the flying block of adamantium when the OP pulled out summoning divine rank zero epic level monsters.


To be fair, the OP pulled out a divine rank zero epic level monster against Elminster. :smallwink:

[Krrth]

And that increases falling damage past the 20d6 cap? Or were you addressing something else?



To be fair, the OP pulled out a divine rank zero epic level monster against Elminster. :smallwink:

The first was the way to ignore the damage (in response to #3).


Yep. It's a cheese fest all the way 'round.

[Douglas]

I believe the 20d6 cap only applies to falling damage derived from the height of the fall, not damage coming from the weight of the falling object.

[quick_comment]

And that increases falling damage past the 20d6 cap? Or were you addressing something else?




Damage you take from falling caps at 20 dice. Damage dealt by falling objects has no cap for the weight of the object. It deals up to 20d6 for distance, and no limit for weight.

[Raenir Salazar]

anyone know if I am able to repeat his trick and kill his cube or do i have to dispel it first with disjunction?

[JeminiZero]

anyone know if I am able to repeat his trick and kill his cube or do i have to dispel it first with disjunction?

Like I said above, argue that since the adamantium cube is supposedly a nonunique creature, ask for its stats and than come back to us.

And then we need to consider what Elminster has that might negate 1000s of falling damage.

[Raenir Salazar]

Like I said above, argue that since the adamantium cube is supposedly a nonunique creature, ask for its stats and than come back to us.

And then we need to consider what Elminster has that might negate 1000s of falling damage.

DR Plot/- ? :)

[Dacia Brabant]

1) Argue that the moment elminster pulled it, you are entitled to a knowledge roll to find out more about an animated adamantium block. And if your roll exceeds a certain DC you should have ALL the stats (for the block although not necessarily for elminster) since it is "non-unique" (i.e. you likely have readup everything about it at some point). Since its a construct, you should roll knowledge arcane.
2) With the stats in hand, you can then better plan how to kill it. If it has finite damage reduction (and no regen), you can copy the trick, fall on it yourself, deal 1250d6 damage to it and kill it.
3) Thats assuming that Elminster doesn't have some kind of rubbish that negates 1000s of points of falling damage

In summation: Blocks fall, everyone dies.

:smallwink:

[Krrth]

his immunities are randomized, hemay not be immune to it, I know he rolled a 1d100 to see if his artifact went kaboom.

His immunities are NOT randomized. As a Chosen of Mystra, he gets to PICK one spell of each level (1-9) to be immune to. Your DM may have rolled them as random, but that's bad preparation.

[Raenir Salazar]

His immunities are NOT randomized. As a Chosen of Mystra, he gets to PICK one spell of each level (1-9) to be immune to. Your DM may have rolled them as random, but that's bad preparation.

We're using the epic level handbook.

[Krrth]

We're using the epic level handbook.
So? He's still a chosen of Mystra. That's a template, not a class.


According to the Errata for the ELH, his immunities are:

magic missile, detect thoughts, fireball, Evard’s black tentacles,
feeblemind, geas/quest, finger of death, sunburst,
temporal stasis

[quick_comment]

So? He's still a chosen of Mystra. That's a template, not a class.


According to the Errata for the ELH, his immunities are:

magic missile, detect thoughts, fireball, Evard’s black tentacles,
feeblemind, geas/quest, finger of death, sunburst,
temporal stasis

Pretty crap immunities too. You can get magic missile immunity from a brooch, fireball immunity from a ton of spells, evard's black tentacles immunity from a ring of freedom of movement, feeblemind and geas immunity from mind blank, finger of death from death ward. All of these are things every epic character I have ever made has in some form.

[Doc Roc]

And being immune to temporal stasis and derivative effects is like opting to be immune to antihistamines.

Sounds good till you think for a quarter of a second. Is actually obviously a terrible plan.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Elminster has fighter levels, right?

So he's proficient with a +1 mithral buckler of Great Reflection. :smalltongue:

[Krrth]

Pretty crap immunities too. You can get magic missile immunity from a brooch, fireball immunity from a ton of spells, evard's black tentacles immunity from a ring of freedom of movement, feeblemind and geas immunity from mind blank, finger of death from death ward. All of these are things every epic character I have ever made has in some form.

I gotta agree with you there. I would have chosen differently myself.

[Raenir Salazar]

"I'd say uhm... I'm not sure spellcraft is appropriate here. Knowledge [Arcana] may be better.
You saw no auras winking out.
Ok with Reflex for? 1/2 damage?
It doesn't say anything about being forced to cast from memory in the metamagic rods description, so I assume it's possible to quicken from a scroll.
Assuming I did not scramble the immunities, you're correct.
Sure, 1d6 damage negated by a DC 15 Jump or Tumble check. Jump goes with Str, so 1d20+7 = 21.
http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2126280/"

Im going to make that Knowledge check.

[woodenbandman]

And being immune to temporal stasis and derivative effects is like opting to be immune to antihistamines.

Sounds good till you think for a quarter of a second. Is actually obviously a terrible plan.

Why is immunity to Temporal Stasis bad?

[The Mentalist]

Because if I recall correctly, Temporal Statis makes you immune to everything.

[Doc Roc]

There's a couple of tricks that use it as part of their mojo.

[Krrth]

I believe he's immune to it being used against him, not hi using it himself.

[Doc Roc]

Nope. Immunities cannot be lowered.

[Krrth]

Nope. Immunities cannot be lowered.

Normally, no. However, as I recall, the text for the immunities granted by being chosen of Mystra reads: You are immune to attacks that duplicate your chosen immunities.

I'd have to check my PGtF to be sure.

[Doc Roc]

Seems wholly irrelevant unless I can get the template.

[Dacia Brabant]

According to the FRCS, the Chosen of Mystra template says each immunity is "just as if the spell immunity spell were constantly in effect upon them".

Now, Spell Immunity confers an SR of infinity (that is, unbreachable) for the designated spells, so I would think just like with any SR it can be lowered as a standard action but maybe this would be an exception.

Also, that means you can't pick spells that aren't subject to SR to be immune from, or rather you can but it won't do anything. That's kind of limiting. Maybe this was changed in PGtF though, too bad I don't have it.

[Doc Roc]

This is all starting to remind me of the thread that was the cause for NOT THE BEES.

I started panicking as soon as I saw Hecas mentioned and haven't really stopped since.

[Dacia Brabant]

Well, at least no one has yet invoked Pazuzu... Pazuzu Pazuzu

...oops.

[Doc Roc]

Yeah, on the plus side, you get no wishes cause you're clearly already chaotic evil. :)

[Raenir Salazar]

I'm NE, what I summoned was CE.

[Raenir Salazar]

His response is "Elminster teleports to safety when the thing first arrives"

Talk about breaking character.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

That's such an unlikely thing for someone to do.

[Raenir Salazar]

Indeed, its completely breaking character.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

His response is "Elminster teleports to safety when the thing first arrives"

Talk about breaking character.

Breaking character? Why? Who would want to fight something like that without backup if backup is possible? Elminster has an incredible intelligence...he definitely know that, when facing something that powerful, help is, while not required, definitely appreciated.

Plus, teleporting away means he can prepare, come back, and fight it on his terms. Which, needless to say, means he'd probably win. That's the sort of logic that I'd say is completely in character.

[Raenir Salazar]

Breaking character? Why? Who would want to fight something like that without backup if backup is possible? Elminster has an incredible intelligence...he definitely know that, when facing something that powerful, help is, while not required, definitely appreciated.

Plus, teleporting away means he can prepare, come back, and fight it on his terms. Which, needless to say, means he'd probably win. That's the sort of logic that I'd say is completely in character.

Except of course hes never actually done that, ever, in any of the books. High int score doesn't actually translate to him ever possessing common sense. If he DID have time thats one thing but the truth is that everyone in shadowdale and a large radius around it would probably die very quickly and be unable to be brought back.

[Krrth]

Breaking character? Why? Who would want to fight something like that without backup if backup is possible? Elminster has an incredible intelligence...he definitely know that, when facing something that powerful, help is, while not required, definitely appreciated.

Plus, teleporting away means he can prepare, come back, and fight it on his terms. Which, needless to say, means he'd probably win. That's the sort of logic that I'd say is completely in character.

Indeed. In fact, I'd imagine the next thing he does is get the rest of the Chosen and come back to "explain" why summoning things like that is a no no.



edit:Really? I seem to recall him running away from a lich before.

[Raenir Salazar]

Indeed. In fact, I'd imagine the next thing he does is get the rest of the Chosen and come back to "explain" why summoning things like that is a no no.



edit:Really? I seem to recall him running away from a lich before.


Only because he had a reasonable chance of getting it to follow him sparring the lives of people in his vicinity.


There was a second instance where he was in a HURRY to get somewhere and couldn't stand and fight something or other, but generally when the lives of a large amount of people are at stack he stands and fights.

[Krrth]

So? That show him using intelligence. And common sense.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Only because he had a reasonable chance of getting it to follow him sparring the lives of people in his vicinity.

And here he is obviously outclassed in terms of power, so he has no real chance. You've summoned a semi-divine Abomination into the world. Elminster isn't prepared for such a thing. Therefore, his best option is to go and prepare, and not risk his life in a half-hearted and ill-concieved attempt to take on something so incredibly powerful.

He's making the smart move, and the one that will save the most people. After all...if he doesn't succeed in killing it, Toril has some big problems. Bigger than losing a town or two.

[Raenir Salazar]

And here he is obviously outclassed in terms of power, so he has no real chance. You've summoned a semi-divine Abomination into the world. Elminster isn't prepared for such a thing. Therefore, his best option is to go and prepare, and not risk his life in a half-hearted and ill-concieved attempt to take on something so incredibly powerful.

He's making the smart move, and the one that will save the most people. After all...if he doesn't succeed in killing it, Toril has some big problems. Bigger than losing a town or two.

He did the exact same thing ie the risking his life part to save a single town when a hole to the 9 Hells was opened in Shadowdale.

[Optimystik]

Serious business...

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

He did the exact same thing ie the risking his life part to save a single town when a hole to the 9 Hells was opened in Shadowdale.

I'll take your word for it...I'm not that well read on Forgotten Realms external material.

That said, your standard Wizard's spell preperation is actually better suited to a hole to the 9 Hells than it is to an Abomination. Remember...god-destroying evil here. It's something major. Elminster outclasses most devils by several magnitudes. He doesn't really outclass the Abomination.

It's a new scenario...we can't use the past examples as a "be-all-and-end-all" of his decisions.

[Krrth]

In that particular story, as I recall, Elminster couldn't leave. The rift was unstable and had to be sealed immediately.

I also recall that by the end of "Elminster in Hell", the Simbul teleported an entire mountain across the planes and dropped in on the Archdevil..

[Raenir Salazar]

I'll take your word for it...I'm not that well read on Forgotten Realms external material.

That said, your standard Wizard's spell preperation is actually better suited to a hole to the 9 Hells than it is to an Abomination. Remember...god-destroying evil here. It's something major. Elminster outclasses most devils by several magnitudes. He doesn't really outclass the Abomination.

It's a new scenario...we can't use the past examples as a "be-all-and-end-all" of his decisions.

True if this was a standard CAMPAIGN I would agree him going away to come back is more reasonable, but this was meant to be a single encounter of can a level 20 min/maxed wizard fight and probably beat Elminster, having him running away is anti climatic.

Cours' he shouldn't have been able to teleport away at all as I had forsight on with Arcane Sight when I teleported in with spellcraft up the wazoo I should have known that I was in a Transformation field that would absorb my spells would have opened up with Disjunction then Quicken Dimensional Lock then Forcecage or timestop.

[afroakuma]

True if this was a standard CAMPAIGN I would agree him going away to come back is more reasonable, but this was meant to be a single encounter of can a level 20 min/maxed wizard fight and probably beat Elminster, having him running away is anti climatic.

It's not about what's "climactic" or "anti-climactic." You bringing in a hecatoncheires, that's anticlimactic. That's how maxed-out wizards work: climaxes involve risks to their person, which is a no-no.

[Raenir Salazar]

It's not about what's "climactic" or "anti-climactic." You bringing in a hecatoncheires, that's anticlimactic. That's how maxed-out wizards work: climaxes involve risks to their person, which is a no-no.

And he changed his immunities which makes making a viable build for taking out Elminster much much harder.

[afroakuma]

And he changed his immunities which makes making a viable build for taking out Elminster much much harder.

Yes, it means you can't go in knowing beforehand exactly how the battle will go. How very unfair. Did he change Elminster's prepared spells, too?

[Krrth]

It's not supposed to be easy. Remember, Elminster is a high level caster than you. Any spell cheese you can come up with he can do as well, only stinkier.

[Raenir Salazar]

Yes, it means you can't go in knowing beforehand exactly how the battle will go. How very unfair. Did he change Elminster's prepared spells, too?

Rolls eyes.

[afroakuma]

It's not supposed to be easy. Remember, Elminster is a high level caster than you. Any spell cheese you can come up with he can do as well, only stinkier.

This.

What did you expect was going to happen? You're literally going up against an opponent who is you++. You may as well have just punched everything into a computer, which would do the math and come up with if X > Y, then, unsurprisingly, X > Y.

[Raenir Salazar]

Not really a wizard is still a wizard if you don't have the spells prepared then you don't have the spells prepared. That "he could" is not the same as "he can".

[quick_comment]

Not really a wizard is still a wizard if you don't have the spells prepared then you don't have the spells prepared. That "he could" is not the same as "he can".

Look, neither your nor your DM know the rules well enough that you are able to play, effectively or not, epic level D&D. Try learning a bit more, and then starting the fight over, and not flailing around like a bunch of 5 year olds with seizure disorders.

[Arakune]

And then you too may retreat to safety, or summon more deadly stuff to make him busy and come back later to kill him.

[Raenir Salazar]

Look, neither your nor your DM know the rules well enough that you are able to play, effectively or not, epic level D&D. Try learning a bit more, and then starting the fight over, and not flailing around like a bunch of 5 year olds with seizure disorders.

now thats a little harsh, I admit I may not be experianced but thats why I came HERE for help.

[Krrth]

now thats a little harsh, I admit I may not be experianced but thats why I came HERE for help.

It was a bit harsh, yes.

The only reason you have a chance is because for some reason, even though he is a epic level caster, they didn't give him epic spells.

The GM can equip him with a lot more items than your character can afford, including epic level items.

He's a higher level caster, with more spell slots.


Now, what you have to do is play to his weaknesses. A straight spell battle doesn't do that.

Silverfire unravels the weave when used against pure shadow magic. You should look at taking the shadow weave line of feats and then somehow getting him to use silver fire.

[Raenir Salazar]

I managed to do that actually, I locked him inside a AMF with a Prismatic Sphere encasing us. had I had an action remaining a resilent sphere on top of that would have kept him in indefinately unless hes used it. Just I didn't thinkof using Shadow weave.

[Krrth]

I managed to do that actually, I locked him inside a AMF with a Prismatic Sphere encasing us. had I had an action remaining a resilent sphere on top of that would have kept him in indefinately unless hes used it. Just I didn't thinkof using Shadow weave.

If you were inside the AMF with him, he could have just beaten you to death with his sword. He's got the hit points to do it.

edit: The sphere and AMF have the same radius. Wouldn't work.

[Raenir Salazar]

so did I, mastery of shaping so I had a hole and put a block of the Prism between him and me.

[Krrth]

I'm not sure mastery of shaping can do that, but I'm not positive. I don't think radius counts as burst, cone, cylinder, emanation, or spread.

AMF lists itself as an emanation. Prismatic sphere does not.

Also.....you can make yourself immune to the AMF, but you can't change the 10 foot radius. So, he can just walk out of the AMF, which is suppressing the Prismatic sphere.

[lord_khaine]

The AMF cant supress the sphere.

[Krrth]

The AMF cant supress the sphere.

It would depend on the order cast, I think. An AMF cannot penetrate it, but I don't think you can cast it IN an AMF either.

edit: in any event, that still leaves a 5 foot square open in the middle, free from any spell. All Elminster needs to do is step into that square (and kick you out of it), then DD out. Or teleport without error. Or whatever he feels like doing. Even just waiting until the spells end.

[Doc Roc]

I managed to do that actually, I locked him inside a AMF with a Prismatic Sphere encasing us. had I had an action remaining a resilent sphere on top of that would have kept him in indefinately unless hes used it. Just I didn't thinkof using Shadow weave.

The shadow weave line has been suggested a number of times across the thread. If you came here for help, that would have been a key tidbit to pick up. Not to be harsh, but I feel like you want a very specific kind of help that we cannot provide because it is rarer than a unicorn.

[Dagren]

I would have said that he shouldn't have been able to turn into the big square block. Even if you try saying that it's animated to get it allowed, you also have to be familiar with the form; you can't just make stuff up for shapechange, and something tells me there aren't too many blocks of animated metal the size of a small castle around Shadowdale. (Seriously, do you have any idea just how big a 200' cube is?)

[JeminiZero]

It's not about what's "climactic" or "anti-climactic." You bringing in a hecatoncheires, that's anticlimactic.


I dunno. He is bringing in a semi-divine abomination against what is supposedly one of the most powerful wizards in existence. If this happened in a novel, that would make for one heck of a climax. :smallwink:


It's not supposed to be easy. Remember, Elminster is a high level caster than you. Any spell cheese you can come up with he can do as well, only stinkier.

Not necessarily. In some ways this was supposed to be a test, that in the absence of epic spells, whether Incantatrix cheese (i.e. OP) can trump higher caster level cheese (i.e. Elminster). As powerful as Elminster is, he might have trouble throwing out the all time Cindy favorites.

[Krrth]

I dunno. He is bringing in a semi-divine abomination against what is supposedly one of the most powerful wizards in existence. If this happened in a novel, that would make for one heck of a climax. :smallwink:



Not necessarily. In some ways this was supposed to be a test, that in the absence of epic spells, whether Incantatrix cheese (i.e. OP) can trump higher caster level cheese (i.e. Elminster). As powerful as Elminster is, he might have trouble throwing out the all time Cindy favorites.

True. But most of the tactics I've been seeing have been straight spells. In a battle like that, Elminster wins.

Not to mention having Epic items makes up for a lot.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

*casts disjunction. The simulacrum as well as the summoned Hecatoncheires are now gone*


Can we get back to the real battle, people?

[Flickerdart]

Can you really disjoin an Instantaneous spell? The called Hecatoncheires would be dispelled, but not the simulacrum, who is no longer magical.

[Raenir Salazar]

*casts disjunction. The simulacrum as well as the summoned Hecatoncheires are now gone*


Can we get back to the real battle, people?

I asked if it was that simple earlier, it isn't. It can't dispel something with an instaneous duration anymore you can disjoin a fireball. Also I imagine if the Summoned Hecatoncheires is Divine Rank 0 Dysjunction shouldn't work on it either.

[Stormthorn]

Make more pretty comic pages!

And put them in the OP so us non-cheesy people can follow the match. I dont need to knwo the names of the wrestling moves to enjoy when a guy gets hit with a folding chair.