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Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 01:32 PM
Elminster's Character Sheet as per Epic Level HB

My constraints are Level 20 Any Arcane spellcaster combination and prc, but lets put it at a minimum of 3 class levels of each class used and reccomended wealth to be invested into whatever magic item.



Whose with me? :D

I'll try writing up a rough character soonish, I'm in the middle of cleaning my room.

edit: any race I think.

Character sheet so far:


Bakura The Dark Human
Diviner 6 Archmage 4 Barred School (Enchantment) Incantrix 10 (barred Evocation)

83 Years old.

So level 1, Choose Wizard, Specialize in Divination, chuck Enchantment. Grab Spellcasting Prodigy, I have Scribe Scroll, Summon Familiar. Grab Extend Spell
I have in stats:
STR 8 -1
DEX 14 +2
CON 14 +2
INT 18 +4
WIS 12 +1
CHA 10 +0
Spells Ill pick later. I have 28 skill points.
So Spellcraft 4, Knowledge (Arcana) 4, Knowledge (Planes) 4, Concentration 4, Profession (Gourmet chef) 4, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) 4, Knowledge (Religion) 4.
Level 2 Wizard, pick 2 spells
Level 3 New feat! Iron Will, pick 2 spells
Level 4 +1 Int, Pick 2 spells, 2 new spells
Level 5 New feat! Pick Persistence Spell, 2 new spells.
Level 6 Pick Incantrix 1, New Feat! Pick Spell Focus (Transmutation), Bonus Feat! Empower Spell. Choose Evocation as Banned school, *sniff* good bye Bigby. 2 new spells
Level 7 Incantrix 2, Gain Cooperative Metamagic. 2 new spells.
Level 8 Incantrix 3, Gain +1 Int (now at 22). 2 new spells, Gain metamagic effect (Su).
Level 9 Incantrix 4, New feat! Spellfocus (Illusion), 2 new spells, gain nothing apparently? 36,000 GP Gain headband of Intellect +6. Am I able to put more then 2 into a class skills?
Level 10 Incantrix 5, 2 new spells, Gain Metamagic Spell Trigger (Su).
Can Spell Trigger work on a Metamagic Rod to stack effects?
Level 11 Incantrix 6, 2 new spells, Gain Concentration (Su).
Level 12 Incantrix 7, NEW FEAT! Skillfocus (Spellcraft), +1 Int (23) 2 new spells, Gain Instant Metamagic (Su).
Level 13 incantrix 8, 2 new spells, Gain Snatch Spell (Su)
Level 14 Incantrix 9, 2 new spells,
Level 15 Incantrix 10, New Feat! Grab Empower, 2 new spells (Polymorph Any Object), Gain Improved Metamagic (Su). 200,000 GP-36,000GP from HBoI, turn into Assimar, then again into Planetar (22 base int). Buy Tome of Clear thought, gain +5 to Intelligence, making it 22+3+5 (30).
Level 16, Archmage 1, +1 Int (30+1 Inherent, 36 with Headband), new spells. Grab Arcana SLA Shapechange, Sacrificing a 5th level slot and a 9th level slot.
Level 17 Archmage 2,2 new spells, Arcane Reach (Su) Sacrificing a 7th level slot (How this work, I have 1 less 7th level slot, but now any Touch based spell can now has a range of 30 ft?).
Level 18 Archmage 3, NEW FEAT! Quicken Spell, 2 new spells, nab Mastery of Shaping sack a 6th level slot.
Level 19 Archmage 4, 2 new spells, nab Mastery of Elements sack a 8th level slot.
Level 20, 5 Wizard Incantrix 10, Archmage 4, Loremaster 1, New Feat! Craft Rod. +1 Int, and from here Grab all of the Greater, Medium Metamagic Rods I can grab. Grab 2 Rings of Counterspelling (2x 4000 gp)


Lvl1: Spellcraft 4, Knowledge (Arcana) 4, Knowledge (Planes) 4, Concentration 4, UMD 2, Profession (Gourmet chef) 2, Craft 4, Alchemy 4, Dechepher script 4 (32) 20 Int
Lvl2: 7sp 5 (Arcana), 5 (Spellcraft), 5 (Concentration), 5 (Craft Rod), 5 ( Planes), 5 (Religion), 5 (Dungeoneering)
Lvl3: 7sp 6(Arcana), 6 (Spellcraft), 6 (Concentration), 6 (Craft Rod) ), 6 ( Planes), 5 (Religion), 6 (Dungeoneering)
Lvl4: 7sp 7 (Arcana), 7 (Spellcraft), 7 (Concentration), 7 (Craft Rod) , 7( Planes), 7 (Religion), 7 (Dungeoneering) 19 int
Lvl5: 7sp 8 (Arcana), 8 (Spellcraft), 8 (Concentration), 8 (Craft Rod) , 8( Planes), 8 (Religion), 8 (Dungeoneering)
Lvl6: 7sp 9 (Arcana), 9 (Spellcraft), 9 (Concentration), 9 (Craft Rod) , 9( Planes), 9(Religion), 5 (Dungeoneering)
Lvl7: 7sp 10 (Arcana), 10 (Spellcraft), 10 (Concentration), 10 (Craft Rod) , 10( Planes), 10 (Religion), 9 (Dungeoneering)
Lvl8: 8 sp 11 (Arcana), 11 (Spellcraft), 11 (Concentration), 11 (Craft Rod), 11(Planes),11(Religion),10(Dungeonering)
0 (Use Magic Device) 20 int
Lvl9: 8 sp 12 (Arcana), 12 (Spellcraft), 12(Concentration), 12 (Craft Rod),12( Planes),12(Religion),11(Dungeoneering)
1 (Use Magic Device) 20 int
Lvl10: 8 sp 13 (Arcana), 13(Spellcraft), 13(Concentration), 13 (Craft Rod), 13( Planes),13(Religion),12(Dungeoneering)
1 (Use Magic Device)
Lvl11: 8 sp 14 (Arcana), 14(Spellcraft), 14 (Concentration), 14 (Craft Rod), 14( Planes),14(Religion),13(Dungeoneering)
2 (Use Magic Device)
Lvl12: 8 sp 15 (Arcana), 15(Spellcraft), 15 (Concentration), 15 (Craft Rod),15(Planes),15(Religion),14(Dungeonering)
2 (Use Magic Device) 21
Lvl13: 8 sp 16 (Arcana), 16(Spellcraft), 16 (Concentration), 16 (Craft Rod),16( Planes),16(Religion),15(Dungeonering)
3 (Use Magic Device)
Lvl14: 8 sp 17 (Arcana), 17(Spellcraft), 17 (Concentration), 17 (Craft Rod),17( Planes),17(Religion),16(Dungeonering)
3 (Use Magic Device)
Lvl15: 8 sp 18 (Arcana), 18 (Spellcraft), 18 (Concentrat), 18(Craft Rod), 17(Planes),17(Religion),17(Dungeonering)
4 (Use Magic Device) 21 Intelligence -> 30
Lvl16: 13 sp 19 (Arcana), 19 (Spellcraft), 19 (Concentrat), 19(Craft Rod), 19(Planes),19(Religion),19(Dungeonering)
7 (Use Magic Device) 30 Intelligence
Lvl17: 13 sp 20 (Arcana), 20 (Spellcraft), 20 (Concentrat), 20(Craft Rod), 20(Planes),20(Religion),20(Dungeonering)
10 (Use Magic Device)
Lvl18: 13 sp 21 (Arcana), 21 (Spellcraft), 21 (Concentrat), 20(Craft Rod), 21(Planes),21(Religion),21(Dungeonering)
13 (Use Magic Device), 1 Profession (Electronic Guitar Solo-ist)
Lvl19: 13 sp 22 (Arcana), 22 (Spellcraft), 22 (Concentrat), 20(Craft Rod), 22(Planes),22(Religion),22(Dungeonering)
16 (Use Magic Device), 2 Profession (Electronic Guitar Solo-ist
Lvl20: 14 sp 23 (Arcana), 23 (Spellcraft), 23 (Concentrat), 20(Craft Rod), 23(Planes),23(Religion),23(Dungeonering)
19 (Use Magic Device), 4 Profession (Electronic Guitar Solo-ist 32 int

23: Knowledge (Arcana)
23: Spellcraft
23: Concentration
20: Craft ( Rod )
23: Knowledge (Planes)
23: Knowledge (Religion)
23: Knowledge (Dungeoneering)
19: use Magic Device
4: Profession (Electric Guitar Soloist)

Feats: Summon Familiar, Scribe Scroll, Spellcasting Prodigy, Iron Will, Extend Spell, Persist Spell, Empower Spell, Craft Rod, Spell Focus (Transmutation), Spell Focus (Illusion), Skillfocus (Spellcraft), Quicken Spell.
Supernatural Abilities: Arcane Reach, Improved Metamagic, Metamagic Effect, Cooperative Metamagic, Metamagic Concentration, Instant Metamagic, Snatch Spell, Spell Like Ability 2/day (Shapechange), Mastery of Shaping, Mastery of Elements.

8 -3
14 -3
14 -3
22+5(Book)+5(level 20)+6(Headband of Int)+1=39
10 +1 age
8+1 age

22 STR
16 DEX
17 CON
39 INT
11 WIS
9 CHA




Spell Levels/Spell Per day
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Base
+Int Bonus
+School Specialization
6 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4
0 4 4 4 3 3 3 3 2 2
0 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
-----------------------
6 9 9 9 8 8 8 8 7 7
Sacrificed Slots
6 9 9 9 8 7 7 7 6 6 Per day


Spells Known:

Level1:
Feather Fall
Magic Missile
Shield
Mage Armor
Ray of Enfeeblement
Alarm
Mount
True Strike
Charm Person
Sleep
Color Spray
Enlarge Person
Ray of Clumsiness
Protection from X

Level 2:
Glitterdust
Rope Trick
Mirror Image
Bull's Strength
Fox intellect(b)
Cats Grace(b)
Owl Wisdom(b)
Bears Endurance(b)

Level 3:
Magic Weapon, Greater
Haste
Ray of Exhaustion
Orb of Sonic
Dispel magic (b)

level 4:
Dimensional Anchor
Dimension Door
Stoneskin
Enervation

level 5:
Teleport
Shadow Evocation
Overland Flight
Contingent Energy Resistance
wall of stone (b)
Permanency (b)

level 6:
Dispel Magic, Greater
True Seeing
Disintegrate
Antimagic Field
Globe of Invulnerbility (b)

level 7:
Banishment
Teleport, Greater
Arcane Sight, Greater
Energy Immunity
Ethereal Jaunt(b)
Resistance, Superior (b)
Stun Ray (b)
Stern Reproof (b)
Avasculate (b)
Spell Matrix(b)

level 8:
Mind Blank
Maze
Greater Shadow Evocation
Moment of Prescience
Prismatic Wall(b)
Protection from Spells(b)
Polymorph Any Object(b)


Level 9:
Time Stop
Energy Drain
Shades
Prismatic Sphere
Absorption
Reaving Dispel
Dyjunction
Shapechange

Worira
2009-06-10, 01:35 PM
I'm pretty sure that's copyright infringement. You should probably take the scans down, and just have people who already know Elminster's stats answer. He's in PGtF, anyway, and quite a few people know his stats.

RTGoodman
2009-06-10, 01:36 PM
I might have missed it, but I don't see any immunity to ability damage. Maximized shivering touch should take him out easily, right? That's assuming you can get through his ridiculous spellcasting ability, which you won't be able to if he's played as intelligently as he should be.

Emy
2009-06-10, 01:37 PM
You may want to check "The 1st invitational Kill Elminster contest" and its successor thread.

My personal favorite is probably the plan that traps him in a portable hole being beaten upon by a zombie for eternity.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 01:37 PM
I'm pretty sure that's copyright infringement. You should probably take the scans down, and just have people who already know Elminster's stats answer. He's in PGtF, anyway, and quite a few people know his stats.

Players Guide to faerun?

Well what if theres someone really good at builds who doesn't have it? :smallconfused:

Riffington
2009-06-10, 01:38 PM
I'm pretty sure that's copyright infringement. You should probably take the scans down, and just have people who already know Elminster's stats answer. He's in PGtF, anyway, and quite a few people know his stats.

Incidentally, the stats cannot be copyrighted, only the arrangement. So if (hypothetically) he took down the actual scan and simply posted Elminster's stats without copying the descriptions, he'd be legal.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 01:39 PM
is there a way to get Improved Metamagic earlier then level 21 without needing to use an Incantrix?

hamishspence
2009-06-10, 01:39 PM
Elminster is in two books- Epic Handbook, and Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. The FRCS version predates Epic handbook considerably, and thus, has slightly different stats- the prototype epic rules were different from the finalized Epic Handbook ones.

He's not in the PGtF, if by that you are referring to the Player's Guide to Faerun.

Worira
2009-06-10, 01:41 PM
Ah, yeah, I meant FRCS.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 01:42 PM
Incidentally, the stats cannot be copyrighted, only the arrangement. So if (hypothetically) he took down the actual scan and simply posted Elminster's stats without copying the descriptions, he'd be legal.

my pdf doesn't let me select the block of text.

Also the guy whose gonna duel me with Elminster is insisting on Core + Faerun Campaign setting, though I'm trying to weasel with frostburn. So to be on the safe side lets stick with Core.

hamishspence
2009-06-10, 01:45 PM
The old epic rules handled rather differently. Typically, high level wizards tended to take Bonus Spell Level, and got nothing else.

Larloch in Lord of Darkness- 20 HD, can can 21st level spells because he is Epic12 and took Bonus Spell 12 times.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-10, 02:43 PM
Invite him to Soviet Russia.

For in Soviet Russia, Elminster lose to YOU!

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 02:43 PM
So far here's what I'm thinking of going with a level 20 build.



Ilna'ri Sun Elf
Diviner 16 Archmage 4 Barred School (Enchantment)

8 -1
14 +2
16 +3
28 +9
10
8 -1

140 HP HD 1d4

FORT 8, REFL 9, WILL 12

Feats(11): Extend Spell, Spell Penetration, Spellcasting Prodigy, Empower, Maximize, Quicken, Spell Focus (Transmutation), Spell Focus (Evocation), Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Sculped Spell (if Master of Shaping does same then switch for Stilled).

Free Feats: Scribe Scroll, Summon Familiar

Mastery of Shaping ?
Mastery of Elements
Arcane Reach
Mastery of Counterspelling ?

Wealth 760,000 GP

32 Skillpoints at lvl 1. So roughly 184 sp at 20.

I'ld imaging we'ld know every spell in PHB and Magic of Faerun.

satorian
2009-06-10, 02:48 PM
You said level 20. That's level 21.

The Glyphstone
2009-06-10, 02:48 PM
Um......17 + 4 =/= 20....

Lert, A.
2009-06-10, 02:51 PM
:smallconfused: +1

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 02:57 PM
At 20 I have:



Levels 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

29 Int 3 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 1

Level 20 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4
Subtot: 7 6 6 6 6 5 5 5 5
Special: 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
Total: 8 7 7 7 7 6 6 6 6

And including my Bonus from SCP
Spell Levs: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
New Total: 8 8 7 7 7 7 6 6 6

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 02:58 PM
My mistake. Is my number of feats correct.

Sigh, seems the guy caught on to me trying to use a Drow, so I will fall back onto Human probably for the extra feat, or Sun Elf for the Bonus Int, suggestions?

The Glyphstone
2009-06-10, 03:03 PM
You'll be getting warned for spam pretty soon - use the Edit Post option in the lower right corner to add new next to your last post instead of making a new one.


For races, Grey Elf is the best, are they in Faerun?

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 03:04 PM
You'll be getting warned for spam pretty soon - use the Edit Post option in the lower right corner to add new next to your last post instead of making a new one.


For races, Grey Elf is the best, are they in Faerun?

Proably not, but Sun Elf gives +2 Int.

Does my number of feats get effected by my archmage levels?

hamishspence
2009-06-10, 03:05 PM
no- sun elf is closest equivalent.

In Faerun "Grey elf" is an insulting term for moon elves, which have same stats as standard D&D ones.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 03:11 PM
Does specializing give any bonus's to DC's?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-10, 03:11 PM
No, you're thinking of Spell Focus

Eldariel
2009-06-10, 03:14 PM
Uh, Gnome Incantatrix/Shadowcraft Mage - go to town. He doesn't have anything special considering he's very epic. He doesn't even have Epic Spellcasting! (which would make this an exercise in futility)

FoE
2009-06-10, 03:14 PM
Isn't one of Elminster's powers "Always Wins"? Therefore, you've already lost.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-10, 03:15 PM
Isn't one of Elminster's powers "Always Wins"? Therefore, you've already lost.

Except, of course, in Soviet Russia!

FoE
2009-06-10, 03:16 PM
Except, of course, in Soviet Russia!

Not quite.

In Soviet Russia, Always Wins Elminster! :smallbiggrin:

woodenbandman
2009-06-10, 03:17 PM
^+1, you can't win. It's just impossible.

Morty
2009-06-10, 03:18 PM
Pshaw. Optimization-wise, Elminster is a massive wimp. Being a Chosen One of Mystra helps a bit, but a twinked-out wizard/archmage should take him, unless the fight takes place in a novel by Ed Greenwood.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 03:20 PM
It'ld help knowing that a twinked one can do it if I knew preciesely how to "twink" my suggested build to do so.

Whats a shadowcraft mage and why is it with incantrix enough to got o town on El? Also isn't Improved Metamagic only at level 9 or 10 of Incantrix? How does one do the "metamagic cheese" people keep talking about, isn't the prereq for any other time taking it 30 ranks in spellcraft?

lsfreak
2009-06-10, 03:26 PM
Yea, but a +30 spellcraft item only costs 90000gp. The incantratrix checks aren't that hard to make, you can get a +65 modifier without trying at level 20.

Also, shadowcraft mage lets you cast meteor swarm with prestidigitation. Have fun.

mostlyharmful
2009-06-10, 03:28 PM
Wiz5/Incantatrix10/Archmage5... go look up Tippy. That there's about the most powerful build you can get. Stack the persisted buffs with CL 45bajillion onto yourself and go to town.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 03:30 PM
"I may, or may not, change the spells against which E is immune, and the ones that E can cast once per day, so that you two do not know in advance."

This certainly changes things. That may get rid of my plan to spam Energy Drain.

Where can I find this "Tippy"?

mostlyharmful
2009-06-10, 03:32 PM
"I may, or may not, change the spells against which E is immune, and the ones that E can cast once per day, so that you two do not know in advance."

This certainly changes things. That may get rid of my plan to spam Energy Drain.

So spam split twinned, maximized, empowered, quickened, fell draining godawful orbs of doooooom from a fourth level slot. And use your standerd for greater dispels to strip the old bugger of his buffs. or Enerverates, or whatever.....

Eldariel
2009-06-10, 03:34 PM
It'ld help knowing that a twinked one can do it if I knew preciesely how to "twink" my suggested build to do so.

Whats a shadowcraft mage and why is it with incantrix enough to got o town on El? Also isn't Improved Metamagic only at level 9 or 10 of Incantrix? How does one do the "metamagic cheese" people keep talking about, isn't the prereq for any other time taking it 30 ranks in spellcraft?

Incantatrix gets Improved Metamagic on level 10. Shadowcraft Mage [Races of Stone] gets the ability to use any Illusions like Shadow Conjuration/Evocation to mimic spells. With Improved Metamagic, Heighten Spell, Earth Spell and such, you can actually cast a Silent Image heightened to your highest slot, and mimic a spell one level higher than the Silent Image. These are also 100% or more real, so even if opponent makes their Will-save, they still take the full effects of the spell.

Incantatrix also allows you to make spellcraft checks to persist spells cast on you; 3+Int times per day no less (for you and 3+Int times more for spells cast by others, such as by your familiar which you gave the spells to by spell named "Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability" from Spell Compendium). In addition, you can apply some spontaneous metamagic few times per day and such. Add Echoing Spell [Secrets of Xen'drik] and Arcane Disciple: Luck (for example) and cast spontaneous Miracles a dozen times per day.


Oh, and Arcane Thesis some Orb-spell and go around casting those with Twin, Energy Admixture, Empower, Maximize and so on all applied to the one spell. This gives you decent offense. And Shapechange into Chronotyryn [Fiend Folio], Choker or whatever for extra actions.

herrhauptmann
2009-06-10, 03:34 PM
You could also spam a metamagic Ray of Enfeeblement.

For feats, I recommend "Spellcasting Prodigy" from the FRCS. It raises your casting stat by 2 for the purposes of starting spells at first level, DC's, and bonus spells.
It's my recommendation over Spell Focus: Anything, at low levels. A small bonus to everything, vs. a bonus twice its size that is applied to about a 6th of the spells?

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 03:35 PM
whats a "fell draining godamn orb of doooom"? I'll need details.

Also, how would I use the Spell Like ability Archmage class feature to get SLA for say, timestop effectively?

The Glyphstone
2009-06-10, 03:35 PM
Spellcasting Prodigy was reprinted in a later book, I think PGF, and nerfed huge. Now it's only +2 to your caster stat for DCs.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 03:37 PM
Spellcasting Prodigy was reprinted in a later book, I think PGF, and nerfed huge. Now it's only +2 to your caster stat for DCs.

Its reverse, its +2 to caster state for determining spells, instead of doing anything for DCs I think.

I'm Stuck with Magic of faerun, Players guide to faerun, faerun campaign setting, PHBI, DMGI, and MMI. So I don't think I get Orbs.

I'm thinking of blinging out my build with Greater Metamagic rods.

mostlyharmful
2009-06-10, 03:43 PM
whats a "fell draining godamn orb of doooom"? I'll need details.

Also, how would I use the Spell Like ability Archmage class feature to get SLA for say, timestop effectively?

Choose a spell, one of the orb spells from CArc or Enerverate are favourite. take the Arcane thesis for it and take incantatrix.

Both Incan and Athesis reduce metamagic costs by one, Buuuuuut they can't reduce the spell level total to less than it's starting level. So, you take a level 4 spell, apply lots of cool metamagic to it making it a level 37 spell. A twinned, split, quickened, maximized, empowered, energy admixtured, whatever... spel is clearly uncastable. Then take +1 or +0 metamagics and here's the thing....

YOUR METAMAGIC REDUCERS APPLY PER FEAT APPLIED NOT IN TOTAL!!!!!!

So, you take still and silent and invisible and eshew materials (MM version) and a few others and -2 each....

So long as the total level is the same as the original spell you're golden..

Tippy took this thing to the Nth level and has a build knocking about that'll crapkick anything with a single standerd action, based on an Orb of Cold it's a 3000+ hp moster with status effects tacked on that'll blow through resistance and even immunity.

Horrible abuse of the system but you wanted to beat an epic caster so there you go.

Eldariel
2009-06-10, 03:44 PM
With those books, you go Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Loremaster 1 (max UMD)/Archmage 4. Super Metamagic (every damage-increasing metamagic you can find) a Scorching Ray or whatever and go to town. Shapechange is your friend, too. And Gate. And Time Stop. Well, level 9 spell in general.

And yeah, definitely get "Spell-Like Ability". Time Stop, Gate and Shapechange are all solid choices. You basically trade a 5th and 9th level slot for 2 9th level slots.

OverdrivePrime
2009-06-10, 03:45 PM
A greater rod of maximize for Time Stop is a good idea. Smart wizards leave nothing to chance, particularly when they're fragging legends.

Lord_Drayakir
2009-06-10, 03:48 PM
Actually, as to the fact that Elminster is unbeatable...

What about Raistlin Majere? Although I did get the idea from that Nodwick strip... still. Even though he's never been statted, he does beat off a horde of other mages, and eventually kills a goddess. That's pretty powerful.

mostlyharmful
2009-06-10, 03:50 PM
Actually, as to the fact that Elminster is unbeatable...

What about Raistlin Majere? Although I did get the idea from that Nodwick strip... still. Even though he's never been statted, he does beat off a horde of other mages, and eventually kills a goddess. That's pretty powerful.

He's been stated for the test of the twins, before and after ganking Fistantandilus, in the alternative timelines 3.5 Dragonlance. He's deeply unimpressive, no epic casting even. Level 27. Meh.

Riffington
2009-06-10, 03:53 PM
What about Raistlin Majere? Although I did get the idea from that Nodwick strip... still. Even though he's never been statted, he does beat off a horde of other mages

I see you're a shipper ;)

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 03:54 PM
thats iffy, Raistlin for one has no listed stats, secondly, its implied that Raistlin himself did not defeat Tahkisis but simply left the door open for her to come into the world thereby it is then the OTHER Gods intervened and beat her down weakening her and them for Raistlin to step up into their place.

Aside from lucking out and beating Fisdantilus when he was unprepared for a duel then and there I don't think Raistlin for one actually fought a "horde" of mages hes very crafty in avoiding such.

Also dragonlance is a Low magic setting its likely he isn't in the level 30's range but more likely mid 20's.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-10, 03:54 PM
, he does beat off a horde of other mages

Ok, never use that phrase again.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 03:55 PM
Ok, never use that phrase again.

Quoted for Truth!

Magentawolf
2009-06-10, 03:59 PM
They actually statted out a 6th-level (Red Robes) Raistlin in the 4e character builder. He was horribly unimpressive, even for 6th.

mostlyharmful
2009-06-10, 04:00 PM
Aside from lucking out and beating Fisdantilus when he was unprepared for a duel then and there I don't think Raistlin for one actually fought a "horde" of mages hes very crafty in avoiding such.

Also dragonlance is a Low magic setting its likely he isn't in the level 30's range but more likely mid 20's.

Aside from that time at the end of the first three when he turns up and beats off all comers to defend Caramon, or that time in the Abyss when he beat off all of Takhisis' minions... or that battle with the rabbit when he and Caramon both beat it off really hard or ... yeah ok,, i'm reaching now.

But, the key is that in this world mages are smart enoguh to not take on certain death unless ordered to by Deus Ex Gods so yeah, they don't push it when he's the master of time and stuff.

Raistlin's a good mage for snarky wise ass but not for much more.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 04:01 PM
Arcane Thesis I think isn't in the core books, I don't think the metamagic cheese would work then.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-10, 04:02 PM
Aside from that time at the end of the first three when he turns up and beats off all comers to defend Caramon, or that time in the Abyss when he beat off all of Takhisis' minions... or that battle with the rabbit when he and Caramon both beat it off really hard or ... yeah ok,, i'm reaching now.

England is a small island. I can find you given enough time.

mostlyharmful
2009-06-10, 04:11 PM
England is a small island. I can find you given enough time.

YOU'LL NEVER BEAT US ALLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!

Eldariel
2009-06-10, 04:12 PM
Arcane Thesis I think isn't in the core books, I don't think the metamagic cheese would work then.

10 levels of Incantatrix is sufficient for a great deal of goodness. Less so than with Arcane Thesis, but still.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 04:15 PM
With those books, you go Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Loremaster 1 (max UMD)/Archmage 4. Super Metamagic (every damage-increasing metamagic you can find) a Scorching Ray or whatever and go to town. Shapechange is your friend, too. And Gate. And Time Stop. Well, level 9 spell in general.

And yeah, definitely get "Spell-Like Ability". Time Stop, Gate and Shapechange are all solid choices. You basically trade a 5th and 9th level slot for 2 9th level slots.


So use the 1'st level "Secret" in UMD and not Spellcraft? What exactly should I be using with incantrix to lower the metamagic cost and how would I do so.

Am I able to at lvl 2 to 20 put 2 ranks into spellcraft each time? So with Incantrix whats the minimal level I can start applying Improved Metamagic feats again and again?

mostlyharmful
2009-06-10, 04:19 PM
So use the 1'st level "Secret" in UMD and not Spellcraft? What exactly should I be using with incantrix to lower the metamagic cost and how would I do so.

Am I able to at lvl 2 to 20 put 2 ranks into spellcraft each time? So with Incantrix whats the minimal level I can start applying Improved Metamagic feats again and again?

Incantarix gets a -1 for ALL metas at level 5 I think but the real two kickers are spontaneously adding a meta to spells 3+Int times a day. Look for buffs with turn/level and minute/level durations and persist them, stack them. with a wizard build your Int mod will be huge.

Then add in your adding persist to the same number of spells cast by other people and standerd long term buff routines.

You can push your buffs into the 40 and 50s, then rest, replenish your slots and go adventurering while being virtually unstoppable.

Greater Ironguard, nondetection, shapechange, mindblank, ghostform, elemental body, Veil of Undeath, superior invisibility, foresight, greater blink, greater mage armour, greater anticipate teleport, death ward, freedom of movement, improved mirror image, ray deflection, Heart of X series, spider skin, fly, energy immunity (all five of them) and dimension jumper makes for a fairly effective buff routine. Make sure you stack Caster Level boosts and get immunity to disjunction while you're at it or you might MIGHT get them stripped off.



For spellcraft, no. You put one rank into it per level. BUT. you add your Int mod, any luck, competence, morale, sacred, etc.... bonuses that come in different kinds. plus you can have an item that boosts skill checks with a competence bonus that maximizes at +30 pre-epic items. Plus feat boosts, plus items familiars, assist other from familiars, friendly casters and libraries and whatever you can cobble together.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 04:26 PM
how do I get immunity to dysjunction? contingent conjunction? Incantrix gets Improved metamagic at level 8.

mostlyharmful
2009-06-10, 04:28 PM
how do I get immunity to dysjunction? contingent conjunction? Incantrix gets Improved metamagic at level 8.

That's one way, you can also get your Cleric mate to spell immunity you or there's a cool weapon enchantment in FRs that'll give you immunity to one spell for +1, well worth it. There's about a dozen other ways but they're the fastest ones off the top of my head./

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 04:29 PM
the incantrix here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010803 seems to differ from what you guys are describing, I'm not seeing the Persist/etc int mod per day thingy here.

mostlyharmful
2009-06-10, 04:32 PM
the incantrix here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010803 seems to differ from what you guys are describing, I'm not seeing the Persist/etc int mod per day thingy here.

That's the 3.0 version.. mildly less broken than the 3.5 but still uber. What you're looking at in this version is the instant metamagic. apply a persit effect (+6) to a couple of buffs rather than 3+Int Mod. One of the few times when 3.5 is actually more broken than 3.0 rather than less.

Eldariel
2009-06-10, 04:33 PM
So use the 1'st level "Secret" in UMD and not Spellcraft? What exactly should I be using with incantrix to lower the metamagic cost and how would I do so.

Player's Guide to Faerun: Level 10 ability of Incantatrix reduces all metamagic costs by 1. This happens automaticalyl. And the first secret, you use it for bonus feat (have +7 or 24 Int) to make up for the lost feat.


Am I able to at lvl 2 to 20 put 2 ranks into spellcraft each time? So with Incantrix whats the minimal level I can start applying Improved Metamagic feats again and again?

No, skill rank maximum is always Level+3. You'll have Skill Focus: Spellcraft though, which helps you out a lot. Most importantly, you need to pimp out your Int; be a Sun Elf/Gray Elf to start with 20 Int, apply all your level-ups to it and buy a Tome of Mental Agility (or whatever it is, the book that improves Int) +5 and Headband of Int +6 to Int 36. You could even be Old for 38.

Of course, you could just use Polymorph Any Object (two castings = second casting is permanent) to acquire a much higher Int-score for base and apply all the increases on it. Point being, this Int is +13-+14 and gets you that much bonus on your Spellcraft. This alone with the ranks and Skill Focus = +39 Spellcraft. Some Competence-bonuses from items and you'll soon be making +50 checks (DMG has rules for creating items that grant competence up to +30 to a skill).

This allows you to enhance any effects in existence (mostly buff spells) with metamagic for free. If you can, pick up Persistent Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#persistentSpell) and Persist all your buffs (it's in Player's Guide to Faerun, Complete Arcane, Forgotten Realms Campaign Settings and Deities & Demigods at least). It's in SRD too so it should be a fair game, and it's been published in a dozen books. Persist all your buffs; now you have a magical protection 24 hours per day.

FRCS and PGtF contain a bunch of metamagic which really enable Incantatrix (Twin Spell, Delay Spell [combine with Time Stop for great justice!], Persistent Spell, etc.).

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 04:47 PM
That's the 3.0 version.. mildly less broken than the 3.5 but still uber. What you're looking at in this version is the instant metamagic. apply a persit effect (+6) to a couple of buffs rather than 3+Int Mod. One of the few times when 3.5 is actually more broken than 3.0 rather than less.

Where can I find the 3.5 version of Incantrix?

Eldariel
2009-06-10, 04:51 PM
Where can I find the 3.5 version of Incantrix?

As I repeatedly stated, Player's Guide to Faerun.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 04:57 PM
As I repeatedly stated, Player's Guide to Faerun.

Thank you, fetching now.

chiasaur11
2009-06-10, 05:21 PM
Man, the thread with the zombie hole is fun, but the thread starter...

It seems his response is either "Nuh-Uh! Elminster is too smart for that!" or "No fair, that's cheese!"

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 05:30 PM
Am I only able to put 2 Skillpoints in a single class skill in every level after level 1, or am I able to put more?

RS14
2009-06-10, 05:58 PM
I'm pretty sure that's copyright infringement. You should probably take the scans down, and just have people who already know Elminster's stats answer. He's in PGtF, anyway, and quite a few people know his stats.

This annoys me. I don't know where you are, but at least within the US (if you're elsewhere, just ignore me), the material that I imagine he posted would be defensible under fair use.

It's for criticism and commentary! It is non-commercial! It's a small portion of the work. And I imagine that very few people buy PGtF for Elminster's stats, so the post will have a minimal effect on the value of the work.

That said, the forum rules do not recognize fair use, and so it does violate those rules. But it should be taken down for that reason, and not due to excessive concern for copyright.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 05:59 PM
Player's Guide to Faerun: Level 10 ability of Incantatrix reduces all metamagic costs by 1. This happens automaticalyl. And the first secret, you use it for bonus feat (have +7 or 24 Int) to make up for the lost feat.



No, skill rank maximum is always Level+3. You'll have Skill Focus: Spellcraft though, which helps you out a lot. Most importantly, you need to pimp out your Int; be a Sun Elf/Gray Elf to start with 20 Int, apply all your level-ups to it and buy a Tome of Mental Agility (or whatever it is, the book that improves Int) +5 and Headband of Int +6 to Int 36. You could even be Old for 38.

Of course, you could just use Polymorph Any Object (two castings = second casting is permanent) to acquire a much higher Int-score for base and apply all the increases on it. Point being, this Int is +13-+14 and gets you that much bonus on your Spellcraft. This alone with the ranks and Skill Focus = +39 Spellcraft. Some Competence-bonuses from items and you'll soon be making +50 checks (DMG has rules for creating items that grant competence up to +30 to a skill).

This allows you to enhance any effects in existence (mostly buff spells) with metamagic for free. If you can, pick up Persistent Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#persistentSpell) and Persist all your buffs (it's in Player's Guide to Faerun, Complete Arcane, Forgotten Realms Campaign Settings and Deities & Demigods at least). It's in SRD too so it should be a fair game, and it's been published in a dozen books. Persist all your buffs; now you have a magical protection 24 hours per day.

FRCS and PGtF contain a bunch of metamagic which really enable Incantatrix (Twin Spell, Delay Spell [combine with Time Stop for great justice!], Persistent Spell, etc.).

This is a 1v1 Duel, I think this is an important point unless its feasible for me to Gate in a Devil epic level wizard.

Dun duh da dunh!


So level 1, Choose Wizard, Specialize in Divination, chuck Enchantment. Grab Spellcasting Prodigy, I have Scribe Scroll, Summon Familiar.

I have in stats:

STR 8 -1
DEX 14 +2
CON 16 +3
INT 20 +5
WIS 10 +0
CHA 8 -1
Spells Ill pick later. I have 32 skill points.

So Spellcraft 4, Knowledge (Arcana) 4, Knowledge (Planes) 4, Concentration 4, UMD 2, Profession (Gourmet chef) 2, Craft 4, Alchemy 4, Dechepher script 4

Level 2 Wizard, pick 2 spells. Gain 7 SP, 2 in Kno(Arcana), 2 in Spellcraft, 2 in Concentration, 1 in Profession (Gourmet Chef).
Level 3 New feat! Iron Will, pick 2 spells (Gain 7 SP, Same as above)
Level 4 +1 Int, Pick 2 spells. (Gain 8 SP, Same as above, +1 SP into UMD), 2 new spells
Level 5 New feat! Pick Extend Spell (8 SP, same as above), 2 new spells
Level 6 Pick Incantrix 1, New Feat! Pick Spell Focus (Transmutation), Bonus Feat! Empower Spell, 8 SP same as above. Choose Evocation as Banned school, *sniff* good bye Bigby. 2 new spells
Level 7 Incantrix 2, Gain Cooperative Metamagic, 8 SP as above. 2 new spells.

Level 8 Incantrix 3, Gain +1 Int (now at 22), 9 SP as above with +1 to Tumble. 2 new spells, Gain metamagic effect (Su).
Level 9 Incantrix 4, New feat! Spellfocus (Illusion), 9 SP as above, 2 new spells, gain nothing apparently? 36,000 GP Gain headband of Intellect +6. Am I able to put more then 2 into a class skills?
Level 10 Incantrix 5, 2 new spells, 9 SP as above, Gain Metamagic Spell Trigger (Su).

Can Spell Trigger work on a Metamagic Rod to stack effects?

Level 11 Incantrix 6, 2 new spells, 10 SP(?), Gain Concentration (Su).
Level 12 Incantrix 7, NEW FEAT! Skillfocus (Spellcraft), +1 Int (23) 2 new spells, 9 SP, Gain Instant Metamagic (Su).
Level 13 incantrix 8, 2 new spells, 9 SP, Gain Snatch Spell (Su)
Level 14 Incantrix 9, 2 new spells, 9 SP
Level 15 Incantrix 10, New Feat! Grab Improved Metamagic(?Do I have 30 Spellcraft?), 2 new spells, 9 SP, Gain Improved Metamagic (Su). 200,000 GP-36,000GP from HBoI, Buy Tome of Clear thought, gain +5 to Int, now has 28 Int.
Level 16, Archmage 1, +1 Int (24+5+1 Inherent, 35 with Headband), 12 SP, new spells. Grab Arcana SLA Timestop, Sacrificing a 5th level slot and a 9th level slot.
Level 17 Archmage 2, 12 Skillpoints,2 new spells, Arcane Reach (Su) Sacrificing a 7th level slot (How this work, I have 1 less 7th level slot, but now any Touch based spell can now has a range of 30 ft?).
Level 18 Archmage 3, NEW FEAT! Quicken Spell, 2 new spells, 12 SP , nab Mastery of Shaping sack a 6th level slot.
Level 19 Archmage 4, 2 new spells, 12 sp, nab Mastery of Elements sack a 8th level slot.
Level 20, Incantrix 10, Archmage 4, Loremaster 1, New Feat! Maximize Spell. +1 Int, and from here Grab all of the Greater, Medium Metamagic Rods I can grab.



Alright what do I do from here to tweak it more.

I have 587,000gp remaining.

20+6+5+2(SCP)+2(IS)+5(lvl20)


36 Int, 40 for the matter of determining spells per day.

8
14
16
36(40)
10
8


Spell Levels:0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Base: - 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4
Int Mod+14:- 4 4 4 3 3 3 3 2 2
--------------------------------------------
Total SlPD: 8 8 8 7 7 7 7 6 6

Spells Known: 8+3 11 1st level spells at first level, until 20 I gain 2 new spells at each level.

edit: forgot my ioun stone.


Spells Known, (b) denotes spells needing to be purchased.

Level1:
Feather Fall
Magic Missile
Shield
Mage Armor
Ray of Enfeeblement
Alarm
Mount
True Strike
Charm Person
Sleep
Color Spray
Enlarge Person
Ray of Clumsiness
Protection from X

Level 2:
Glitterdust
Rope Trick
Mirror Image
Bull's Strength
Fox intellect(b)
Cats Grace(b)
Owl Wisdom(b)
Bears Endurance(b)

Level 3:
Magic Weapon, Greater
Haste
Ray of Exhaustion
Orb of Sonic
Dispel magic (b)

level 4:
Dimensional Anchor
Dimension Door
Resilient Sphere
Enervation

level 5:
Teleport
Shadow Evocation
Overland Flight
Contingent Energy Resistance
wall of stone (b)

level 6:
Dispel Magic, Greater
True Seeing
Contingency
Disintegrate
Repulsion (b)

level 7:
Banishment
Teleport, Greater
Arcane Sight, Greater
Forcecage
Ethereal Jaunt(b)
Resistance, Superior (b)
Energy Immunity (b)
Stun Ray (b)
Stern Reproof (b)
Avasculate (b)
Spell Matrix(b)

level 8:
Mind Blank
Maze
Greater Shadow Evocation
Prismatic Wall


Level 9:
Time Stop
Energy Drain
Shades
Prismatic Sphere
Absorption
Reaving Dispel
Dyjunction
Shapechange

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-10, 06:02 PM
My advice?

Make sure your metamagic rods have no sharp edges.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 06:02 PM
My advice?

Make sure your metamagic rods have no sharp edges.

Elaborate?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-10, 06:03 PM
So it hurts less when Elminster shoves them up your arse. :smallwink:

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 06:05 PM
So it hurts less when Elminster shoves them up your arse. :smallwink:

Alter self to remove the arse.

per chance can you comment on what you find about the build subpar to fighting a PBEM duel vs Elminester?


Just me or do I have a lacking of feats?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-10, 06:07 PM
Alter self to remove the arse.

per chance can you comment on what you find about the build subpar to fighting a PBEM duel vs Elminest
First off, you should never Alter Self.

Shapechange all the way.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 06:10 PM
First off, you should never Alter Self.

Shapechange all the way.

Why waste Shapechange to remove the orifice in question? Better yet, Shapechange to a Colossol Dragon THEN alter self back to Elf.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-10, 06:10 PM
I don't think Alter Self works like that. You can only go one size category lower. And it has to be of the same type as the form you're casting it in.

Look, there's one thing you have to learn about high level DnD: The answer is always Shapechange. When it is not Shapechange, it is Time Stop, Maw of Chaos, Gate, or Disjunction.

RTGoodman
2009-06-10, 06:15 PM
Look, there's one thing you have to learn about high level DnD: The answer is always Shapechange. When it is not Shapechange, it is Time Stop, Maw of Chaos, Gate, or Disjunction.

Or mind rape/programmed amnesia.

Starbuck_II
2009-06-10, 06:20 PM
I don't think Alter Self works like that. You can only go one size category lower. And it has to be of the same type as the form you're casting it in.

Look, there's one thing you have to learn about high level DnD: The answer is always Shapechange. When it is not Shapechange, it is Time Stop, Maw of Chaos, Gate, or Disjunction.

But to disjion prompts the DM to disjoin back. And then your ally the Fighter will be cryig as he loses all his gear as he can't make the will saves. Would have been nicer to kill him.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 06:29 PM
I don't think Alter Self works like that. You can only go one size category lower. And it has to be of the same type as the form you're casting it in.

Look, there's one thing you have to learn about high level DnD: The answer is always Shapechange. When it is not Shapechange, it is Time Stop, Maw of Chaos, Gate, or Disjunction.

Can't Elminster Shapechange back too? What would you suggest I shapechange to.

Deth Muncher
2009-06-10, 06:40 PM
Can't Elminster Shapechange back too? What would you suggest I shapechange to.

Elminster.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 06:42 PM
Elminster.

Out of curiosity why has the amount of Snark vs Helpful build advice started shifting towards snark? Its starting to get annoying.

Anyone have any idea of what Items I should get.

Lets add Scarlet and blue Ioun Stone to the mix for +2 to int.

new Spells per day estimate above.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 10:11 PM
I have chosen Spells Known, I just need to totla up the price and then figure out what I need memorized.

Eldritch_Ent
2009-06-10, 10:22 PM
Out of curiosity why has the amount of Snark vs Helpful build advice started shifting towards snark? Its starting to get annoying.

Anyone have any idea of what Items I should get.

Lets add Scarlet and blue Ioun Stone to the mix for +2 to int.

new Spells per day estimate above.

It's simple. Because in every thread about killing that huge Garu Stu Elminster, you always eventually attract the one or two Elminster Fanboys on the board...

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 10:26 PM
Yay! I can post again without double posting, OKAY!

Now if Immunity Energy Drain, Ability Drain, and Timestop are likely or at least possibile what is the bets spell to turn into a Spell Like Ability? Shapechange? If so what is the best form to transform into, Adult Gold Dragon? I am limited to maximum 25 HD.

The Glyphstone
2009-06-10, 10:27 PM
I was going to say the repeated multiposting and one-sentence posts myself. It's hard to give advice when people are told very little information, and when their detailed responses get said one-sentence answers, there is a good portion of the board who might feel like they were being taken for granted or not being read properly. Granted, I don't have a degree in Forum Psychology, so I can't say for certain.



Shapechange? You can't get the ubercheese of Chronotyrn from Fiend Folio, so go for its lesser cousin, the Choker. Quickness, 3.0 haste in a nutshell, is a Su ability and Shapechangable. You can never go wrong with a free standard action each turn.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 10:29 PM
I was going to say the repeated multiposting and one-sentence posts myself. It's hard to give advice when people are told very little information, and when their detailed responses get said one-sentence answers, there is a good portion of the board who might feel like they were being taken for granted or not being read properly. Granted, I don't have a degree in Forum Psychology, so I can't say for certain.



Shapechange? You can't get the ubercheese of Chronotyrn from Fiend Folio, so go for its lesser cousin, the Choker. Quickness, 3.0 haste in a nutshell, is a Su ability and Shapechangable. You can never go wrong with a free standard action each turn.

I'm stuck with Magic of Faerun, and the Core books. Can't even use PHB2, also I have some difficulty finding spells online just by googling, any chance can the gist of what the suggested spell do be mentioned to? Ild appreciate it.

Full updated character sheet on first page.

Tiki Snakes
2009-06-10, 10:43 PM
I believe the correct reply is 'Let Me Google That For You' (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=3.5+srd+spells)

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 10:44 PM
I believe the correct reply is 'Let Me Google That For You' (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=3.5+srd+spells)

Negatory, the D&D wiki is to my view missing 90% of core spells.

The Glyphstone
2009-06-10, 10:47 PM
Chokers are in Core. They're in the Monster Manual.

Use the d20 SRD. www.d20srd.org. It has all the core spells, and all the core monsters except for the Beholder, Mind Flayer, and Giths. The D&D Wiki is a waste of time, too much homebrew stuff.

Tiki Snakes
2009-06-10, 10:48 PM
If it's not on the SRD, is it even really core? I thought that was the whole point. Also, I'm pretty sure the post you quoted was just referring to Shapechange, then suggesting the forms.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 10:51 PM
Does choker let me cast additional spells per round? Whats the strategy here, SPCHG to it then Alterself back to elf to have both its Su and my baility to cast spells?

The Glyphstone
2009-06-10, 10:54 PM
Okay, to be nice, this is why people are getting snarky. It would take all of about a minute for you to click on the provided link, find the monster section of the SRD, look at the Choker, and read what its Quickness ability does.

(BTW, you can cast spells when Shapechanged, Spells are neither an Extraordinary nor Supernatural ability, they're a class feature, and you retain class levels when Shapechanged.)

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 10:57 PM
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040709a&page=4 oooo I think this fella would be nice too, though I'm not sure if hes including serpent kingdoms.
Well I looked at the link, and that is what it implies, not nessasarily what is, I'ld rather have the peer-review confirmation as well as looking which I do in the time I'm waiting for a reply, this is gonna be an intense battle I don't want to pull out something and have the Dm go "nyah huh!"

The Glyphstone
2009-06-10, 11:01 PM
Well I looked at the link, and that is what it implies, not nessasarily what is, I'ld rather have the peer-review confirmation as well as looking which I do in the time I'm waiting for a reply, this is gonna be an intense battle I don't want to pull out something and have the Dm go "nyah huh!"

Sorry, what? if your DM has limited you to Core, there's no grounds for him to deny you the use of a Core monster and its abilities.

Ok, I need to be more direct here. Here is the link to the Choker. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/choker.htm) I reached it by going to d20srd.org, clicking on 'Monsters', then scrolling down to click on 'Choker'.

From there, I scrolled down to read this ability:


Quickness (Su)
Although not particularly dexterous, a choker is supernaturally quick. It can take an extra standard action or move action during its turn each round.


What's the casting time on most spells? A standard action. What does a choker get? An extra standard action each turn. this would allow you, as a choker, to cast an extra spell each turn without having to Quicken.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 11:12 PM
Sorry, what? if your DM has limited you to Core, there's no grounds for him to deny you the use of a Core monster and its abilities.

Ok, I need to be more direct here. Here is the link to the Choker. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/choker.htm) I reached it by going to d20srd.org, clicking on 'Monsters', then scrolling down to click on 'Choker'.

From there, I scrolled down to read this ability:


What's the casting time on most spells? A standard action. What does a choker get? An extra standard action each turn. this would allow you, as a choker, to cast an extra spell each turn without having to Quicken.

Yes, I saw this, I was just worried that it was like Haste and thus didn't confer the ability to cast extra spells per round.

So Choker looks like a very good candidate, but I'm pretty sure I only retain my spellcasting if I have a mouth and hands capable of doing so, whihc if the picture is any indication at least I get a mouth and ohoh, the Monster Manual version doesn't have the Quickness, but the srd version does and are same challenge rating, weird, Ill take it and hopefully itll be good.

Does this Mean I can Cast a spell, quicken spell, cast a spell quicken a spell?

Also, do the metamagic feats given nearly each level by 3.5e incantrix act as having a "Metamagic" feat towards getting the Improved Metamagic feat? Its requirement is 30 ranks in spellcraft and 4 metamagic feats.

So I think Shapechange into a Choker, then Alter Self back to Elf with a lesser still metamagic rod to be the on the safe side.

"You may cast only one quickened spell per round."

Grrr.

Stormthorn
2009-06-10, 11:15 PM
Ok.
Whats an Incantrix?
Why does it count if the title suggests a wizard 20/ everyhting else 0?

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 11:16 PM
Ok.
Whats an Incantrix?
Why does it count if the title suggests a wizard 20/ everyhting else 0?

Fixed. I changed title to level 20 "caster" :)

An incantrix is a spell casting prc that has some nifty metamagic abilities.

The Glyphstone
2009-06-10, 11:21 PM
yes, the bonus metamagic feats given by Incantatrix are actual feats. Unfortunately, I don't think you can get Improved Metamagic, because it is a feat with the [Epic] tag, and I'm pretty sure (not positive) that there's a rule somewhere saying Epic feats can't be taken by non-Epic (<21 HD) characters.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 11:24 PM
yes, the bonus metamagic feats given by Incantatrix are actual feats. Unfortunately, I don't think you can get Improved Metamagic, because it is a feat with the [Epic] tag, and I'm pretty sure (not positive) that there's a rule somewhere saying Epic feats can't be taken by non-Epic (<21 HD) characters.

Incantrix gets it at 10th level though.

Eldariel
2009-06-10, 11:25 PM
Yes, I saw this, I was just worried that it was like Haste and thus didn't confer the ability to cast extra spells per round.

So Choker looks like a very good candidate, but I'm pretty sure I only retain my spellcasting if I have a mouth and hands capable of doing so, whihc if the picture is any indication at least I get a mouth and ohoh, the Monster Manual version doesn't have the Quickness, but the srd version does and are same challenge rating, weird, Ill take it and hopefully itll be good.

It does. You aren't looking hard enough. Quickness is on the next page; its abilities bleed there. It has a language so it can speak (thus qualifying for that requirement) and it has arm-like appendages (and hands are specifically mentioned in the description) and thus probably should be able to cast spells (if not, just Still them or something).


Does this Mean I can Cast a spell, quicken spell, cast a spell quicken a spell?

This means you can cast a spell, then cast a second spell, then move, then cast a quickened spell.


Also, do the metamagic feats given nearly each level by 3.5e incantrix act as having a "Metamagic" feat towards getting the Improved Metamagic feat? Its requirement is 30 ranks in spellcraft and 4 metamagic feats.

You can't get Improved Metamagic-feat in time for this character. However, Incantatrix's level 10 ability of the same name is given as a part of class progression; it's not a feat, it's a class feature. No worries there, you don't need anything but 10 levels in Incantatrix for that.

To answer your question thoguh, yes, the Incantatrix metamagic feats would work as qualifications, but as you can't get 30 ranks in Spellcraft anyways (skill ranks are always limited by your level; you need to be level 27 for 30 ranks in Spellcraft), this is a moot point.


So I think Shapechange into a Choker, then Alter Self back to Elf with a lesser still metamagic rod to be the on the safe side.

Why turn back into an Elf? Choker-form is just fine. If you must though, Polymorph (much better than Alter Self) yourself back into whatever Humanoid you find likeable. And before that, use the two castings of Polymorph Any Object to assume the highest Int form you can find. The intelligence there-of, that is. That's a permanent effect, so effectively you just end up pumping your Int skyhigh. Then Shapechange into a Choker and then Polymorph/Alter Self into the best casting-capable combat form you can find (probably just highest Dex for maximal Initiative, along with any possible Ex abilities you might want).


For the record:
List of INT forms for Polymorph Any Object (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1038764)
Su-list for Shapechange (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-226959)
The Complete 3.5 Polymorph Thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=758751)
Polymorph Forms (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-175846)

For your perusal. And you can find the up-to-date versions of the spells themselves (they've gotten errata'd a thousand times) in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm).

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 11:27 PM
Why polymorph twice into High int monsters? Its not like the int stacks, you get whichever is best your own or its right?

(not entirely sure if I know Shapechange/poly facts very well)

The Glyphstone
2009-06-10, 11:35 PM
It's to permanency it. Polymorph Any Object lasts longer the more similar your original and final forms are. Using multiple PAO spells gets you incrementally closer to being permanently like your chosen form.

Example.

Elf, PAO into a Aasimar. You are the same Kingdom (animal) for a +5, the same size for a +2, and same or lower Intelligence for a +2. This is a =9 and you are permanently an Aasimar.

Now, as an Aasimar, PAO into, say, a Planetar. You're the same Kingdom (animal), you're the same class (Outsider) for +2, and you probably count as Related for another +2 since Aasimars are descendent from Planetars and other angels. This totals 9, so you are permanently a Planetar.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm if your're confused.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 11:39 PM
It's to permanency it. Polymorph Any Object lasts longer the more similar your original and final forms are. Using multiple PAO spells gets you incrementally closer to being permanently like your chosen form.

Example.

Elf, PAO into a Aasimar. You are the same Kingdom (animal) for a +5, the same size for a +2, and same or lower Intelligence for a +2. This is a =9 and you are permanently an Aasimar.

Now, as an Aasimar, PAO into, say, a Planetar. You're the same Kingdom (animal), you're the same class (Outsider) for +2, and you probably count as Related for another +2 since Aasimars are descendent from Planetars and other angels. This totals 9, so you are permanently a Planetar.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm if your're confused.


Without doing the polymorphing bit on the eve of battle ild have 40 to 41 Int (Sun Elf, Tome of Clear thought, headband +6, Ioun Stone, 20levels, old age, etc), if PAO is to gain the int bonus of creature A, then again into creature B and gain permently both their Int bonus? Is this inherent and applies to skillpoints? Or should I only look to it for DC's and spell per day?

The Glyphstone
2009-06-10, 11:44 PM
The Int bonus of any creature except for the final one is irrelevant. the multiple PAO castings are to take advantage of duration factors to make sure the change is permanent, as I said. To continue my above example:

As an Elf with Int 20 (18 base, +2 racial), you turn into the Aasimar. Aasimars do not have a +2 Intelligence bonus like a Star Elf does, so your Int drops to 18 (18 base, +0 racial). Now you cast PAO again and turn from a Aasimar into a Planetar.This changes your Intelligence to 30 (18 base, +12 racial). Since your last transformation was from an Aasimar to a Planetar, who are similar enough to be Permanent change, it doesn't matter that you were an Elf beforehand. Technically, you could PAO Elf-Gnome-Dwarf-Human-Elf-Pit Fiend-Elf-Aasimar-Planetar, and it would be exactly the same.

Also, Ioun Stones are an enhancement bonus, they dont stack with a headband.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 11:49 PM
So if I use a tome of clear thought, + a headband, whatelse could I use to stack it higher?

now the duration is permament with manticore to shrew, and your saying that assimar to planetar is permament, this is because that the more similar the two creatures are the "more" permement it becomes?

So then I'ld alter self back to Elf for battle or am I permanently a planetar now (who can still alter self)?

What can dispel PAO?

Eldariel
2009-06-10, 11:50 PM
Without doing the polymorphing bit on the eve of battle ild have 40 to 41 Int (Sun Elf, Tome of Clear thought, headband +6, Ioun Stone, 20levels, old age, etc), if PAO is to gain the int bonus of creature A, then again into creature B and gain permently both their Int bonus? Is this inherent and applies to skillpoints? Or should I only look to it for DC's and spell per day?

You can only gain the base Int of one creature. For example, as a Planetar your base Int is 22. This you can buff to 40 with Age, Inherent, Enhancement and Levels. Note that same types of bonuses don't stack with one another; the Ioun Stone is useless if you have a +6 Headband already. This is 2 higher than what you could achieve as an Elf. It's worth noting that now you can play a race irrespective of their stats as you can use Polymorphing for the new stats anyways. Therefore Human is a great choice for the extra feat and skills.

And a permanent Polymorph Any Object sets your Int. That means your base Int becomes that of the creature you're Polymorphed into. Therefore, all future level-ups grant you skills in accordance to the new form's Int. However, because you cannot retroactively add skillpoints in D&D, it only helps with your future levels.


If you could acquire Sarrukh-form as your base, you'd get 30 Int (note though that Sarrukhs are a part of the most broken combo in the game; don't use it). This would be perfect; you'd be able to pump your Int to 48 with all the upgrades you can add. Then you can Shapechange into a Choker-form and finally Polymorph/use a second casting of Polymorph Any Object (the key is, neither makes you lose your Su-abilities and thus you retain Quickness) into any combat form you feel like.

Lokogron would have 26 Int, but it crucially has the Outsider-type, which would allow you to Polymorph into e.g. Horned Devil or another solid combat Outsider. As Outsiders tend to have the best combat stats, the loss of 4 Int is worth considering. However, if you absolutely cannot acquire any forms outside MM1, you'll have to contend yourself with 40 Int I think.


EDIT: Polymorph Any Object is a spell that can be dispelled like any other. I suggest you pack a lot of caster level enhancing stuff (you can trivially add 6 with Use Magic Deviced (this is why I told you to get that skill) Beads of Karma [in DMG, Strand of Prayer Beads contains this], Orange Prism Ioun Stone and Ring of Arcane Might).

The Glyphstone
2009-06-10, 11:52 PM
now the duration is permament with manticore to shrew, and your saying that assimar to planetar is permament, this is because that the more similar the two creatures are the "more" permement it becomes?


Exactly.

As for Alter self, your Creature type is now Outsider, you cannot Alter self into a Humanoid, which an Elf is. However, you don't need to, Planetars have hands and can talk, so you are fine for spellcasting.

Dispelling is a potential risk, which is why I would advise pumping your caster level as high as you can and having as many dispel-protections as possible...Rings of Greater Counterspelling with a stored Greater Dispel Magic in them work excellently.

the highest base Int you could achieve if you use a Planetar, since you're limited to Core monsters, is 18 (point buy) +12 racial +5 levels +5 book +6 headband = 46. Age penalties wouldn't factor in because the PAO resets your ability scores, and aging modifiers are applied to your base statline.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-10, 11:55 PM
Oh oh, what about level adjustment? Does becoming a Planetar change my level adjustment? Its level 20 if I'm LA +0. (Although if I do this AT level 20 I don't think it matters)

Also to counterspell, would that disrupt my order of actions and would need to dispel as a prepared action or can I do it on the fly?

So the question is should I use Shapechange as my SLA or can I get away with it as a scroll at the beginning of the day?

"You can cast any spell your character would normally cast at the beginning of the day as your buffs." SLA is probably better, does it work in a Anti magic field? "goes to check srd"

:edit: yes SLA don't work within, but mastery of shaping ftw! I can make a hole in it.

The Glyphstone
2009-06-11, 12:00 AM
LA doesn't matter unless this is a campaign, so you don't need to worry about it.


Counterspelling normally takes a readied action, which is why you use the core item Ring of Counterspells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#counterspells). With a Greater Dispel Magic stored in it, it will automatically Counterspell the first Greater Dispel Magic thrown at you. If you pair the rings (not a bad idea) it'll cancel the first 2 dispels thrown at you. This will not save you from Disjunction, but that's because Disjunction ignores caster level entirely.

Shapechange lasts 1 round/level and has an expensive focus that becomes big XP drains if SLAed. You want Time Stop as your SLA, and Shapechange prepared in your spellbook to be cast as soon as you enter Timestop.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-11, 12:05 AM
LA doesn't matter unless this is a campaign, so you don't need to worry about it.


Counterspelling normally takes a readied action, which is why you use the core item Ring of Counterspells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#counterspells). With a Greater Dispel Magic stored in it, it will automatically Counterspell the first Greater Dispel Magic thrown at you. If you pair the rings (not a bad idea) it'll cancel the first 2 dispels thrown at you. This will not save you from Disjunction, but that's because Disjunction ignores caster level entirely.

Shapechange lasts 1 round/level and has an expensive focus that becomes big XP drains if SLAed. You want Time Stop as your SLA, and Shapechange prepared in your spellbook to be cast as soon as you enter Timestop.

Actually its 10min/level and only requires a Jade focus worth 1500gp, which I I wear as wrist braclet or a part of my headband shouldn't require anything in addition.

Its likely Elminster will be immune to the effects of timestop as per the epic level handbook.

Also, wy am I only able to use 2 rings, dont I have 10 fingers?

The Glyphstone
2009-06-11, 12:13 AM
Because that's how the rules work. You can only benefit from 2 magical rings at any one time.

Checking Archmage, it appears that SLAs with Foci are fine, it's the ones with Material Components that get XP burns.

Have fun with the rest of the build, I'm tuning out for bed now.

Eldariel
2009-06-11, 12:14 AM
Ring-description in DMG specifically states "only the magics of two rings can affect you at a time". That is, you can wear more, but the way you're wired, you can only use two rings (Extra Rings for two more is an epic feat). Hand of Glory gives you a third Ring-slot. Same goes for all magic items; you're limited in slots 'cause the magics won't work from other slots.

And LA, you don't gain LA of the new form since while the change is permanent, it's still just a magical change; deep down below the magic you're still of the form you used to be. You just gain the stats of the new form (along with type and everything); you become one, but that's not your race. You don't inherit any such qualities (no version of Polymorph gives you such baggage).


And with the "Metamagic Effect"-ability of Incantatrix, you can easily apply Persistent Spell to Shapechange making it last 24 hours. Same with all the other spell effects on you (3+Int times per day).

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-11, 12:14 AM
Wait! I don't need UMD as a Wizard right?

Eldariel
2009-06-11, 12:15 AM
Wait! I don't need UMD as a Wizard right?

You need UMD to mimic the "divine"-requirement of Strand of Prayer Beads. In general, the UMD gives you access to divine stuff (there's also some broken stuff you can do with it; you can set your caster level for Staffs = your UMD result-10, but that's abuse and I recommend against it).

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-11, 12:16 AM
Ring-description in DMG specifically states "only the magics of two rings can affect you at a time". That is, you can wear more, but the way you're wired, you can only use two rings (Extra Rings for two more is an epic feat). Hand of Glory gives you a third Ring-slot. Same goes for all magic items; you're limited in slots 'cause the magics won't work from other slots.

And LA, you don't gain LA of the new form since while the change is permanent, it's still just a magical change; deep down below the magic you're still of the form you used to be. You just gain the stats of the new form (along with type and everything); you become one, but that's not your race. You don't inherit any such qualities (no version of Polymorph gives you such baggage).


And with the "Metamagic Effect"-ability of Incantatrix, you can easily apply Persistent Spell to Shapechange making it last 24 hours. Same with all the other spell effects on you (3+Int times per day).

quick question, unless I'm reading wrong I need to have an "ally" for that don't I? Or am I able to do this on myself with only myself? I'm asking but I may not get a hiring wizard.

Eldariel
2009-06-11, 12:18 AM
quick question, unless I'm reading wrong I need to have an "ally" for that don't I? Or am I able to do this on myself with only myself? I'm asking but I may not get a hiring wizard.

That's Cooperative Metamagic, which you need others for. Metamagic Effect is the next ability, that you can apply to any spell effect in place (in other words, first cast Shapechange and then use that ability to make it Persistent; repeat the same with all the other spells you want on you at all times).

As for Metamagic Effect, you could use your Familiar for that provided you can teach it some spells. Unfortunately, with the books you've got, I don't think it's doable. You'd need a spell named "Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability" and I don't think that spell exists in Core or FR books. It's in Spell Compendium for sure though.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-11, 12:25 AM
Awesome sauce, currently I'm plotting out my skills then I'll hope to figuring out how much gold im spending on extra scrolls then hoping to spell components.

Something tells me not many people draft up lvl 20 characters often, theres alot of information to consider here.

Alright so if I have Improved Metamagic as Incantrix 10, whats the best way to creatively use it with my spells? Each metamagic applies is -1 to its cost right?

So Maximized Empowered Enveration is instead of 2 + 3 (5 levels above lvl 4) is -2 so is only 3 levels above? Anything else I could do?


Lvl2: 7sp 2 (Arcana), 2 (Spellcraft), 2 (Concentration), 1 (Profession Gourmet Chef)
Lvl3: 7sp 4 (Arcana), 4 (Spellcraft), 4 (Concentration), 2 (Profession Gourmet Chef)
Lvl4: 7sp 6 (Arcana), 6 (Spellcraft), 6 (Concentration), 3 (Profession Gourmet Chef) 21
Lvl5: 7sp 8 (Arcana), 8 (Spellcraft), 8 (Concentration), 4 (Profession Gourmet Chef)
Lvl6: 7sp 10 (Arcana), 10 (Spellcraft), 10 (Concentration), 5 (Profession Gourmet Chef)
Lvl7: 7sp 12 (Arcana), 12 (Spellcraft), 12 (Concentration), 6 (Profession Gourmet Chef)
Lvl8: 8 sp 14 (Arcana), 14 (Spellcraft), 14 (Concentration), 8 (Profession Gourmet Chef) 22
Lvl9: 8 sp 16 (Arcana), 16 (Spellcraft), 16 (Concentration), 10 (Profession Gourmet Chef)
Lvl10: 8 sp 18 (Arcana), 18(Spellcraft), 18 (Concentration), 12 (Profession Gourmet Chef)
Lvl11: 8 sp 20 (Arcana), 20(Spellcraft), 20 (Concentration), 14 (Profession Gourmet Chef)
Lvl12: 8 sp 22 (Arcana), 22(Spellcraft), 22 (Concentration), 16 (Profession Gourmet Chef) 23
Lvl13: 8 sp 24 (Arcana), 24(Spellcraft), 24 (Concentration), 18 (Profession Gourmet Chef)
Lvl14: 8 sp 26 (Arcana), 26(Spellcraft), 26 (Concentration), 20 (Profession Gourmet Chef)
Lvl15: 8 sp 28 (Arcana), 28 (Spellcraft), 28 (Concentration), 20(Prof: GourmetChef),2(Prof:ElectricGuitar) 28nt
Lvl16: 11 sp 30 (Arcana), 30 (Spellcraft), 30 (Concentration), 20(Prof: GourmetChef),7(Prof:ElectricGuitar) 29nt
Lvl17: 11 sp 32 (Arcana), 32 (Spellcraft), 32 (Concentration), 20(Prof: GourmetChef),12(Prof:ElectricGuitar)
Lvl18: 11 sp 34 (Arcana), 34 (Spellcraft), 34 (Concentration), 20(Prof: GourmetChef),17(Prof:ElectricGuitar)
Lvl19: 11 sp 36 (Arcana), 36 (Spellcraft), 36 (Concentration), 20(Prof: GourmetChef),22(Prof:ElectricGuitar)
Lvl20: 11 sp 38 (Arcana), 38 (Spellcraft), 38 (Concentration), 20(Prof: GourmetChef),27(Prof:ElectricGuitar)30nt



Skills plotted.

Eldariel
2009-06-11, 12:37 AM
One more thing:
Every time before you rest, turn into a Planetar. This gets you 17th level Cleric spellcasting (the only thing Shapechange doesn't grant is Spell-Like Abilities, and spellcasting isn't a Spell-Like Ability, so you get it). Just see to it that you have sufficient Wisdom (a Book and Old age should do it; get base 13 or so), and you can cast any divine spells you want in the morning, and Persist them with Incantatrix's Metamagic Spell Effect.

Stuff like Divine Power, Spell Resistance, Magic Circle against Good, etc. can come in handy so having access to them definitely helps. Note that this doesn't require any more spells from you; all it takes is using your Persistent Shapechange's to make a Free Action change into a Planetar - this momentarily costs you your Quickness, but as you rest in Mordenkainen's Magnificient Mansion anyways with Contingency: "Teleport to Given Safe Location if I am targeted by an attack" and whatever defensive buffs you have on, that's hardly a problem.


Other than that, you should have your own Genesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm)-created plane (it's in SRD and Epic Level Handbook so chances are you've got access to it) with much faster time progression. This allows you to Plane Shift there whenever you need to rest, and rest in what appears to be a mere second on the prime. Then you can use Astral Projection to send your Projection out, and Plane Shift to whatever plane you're going. This way, you act through your Projection - your real body is in no danger.

You can make Conjuration & Divination limited schools on your plane, so nobody can use divinations to peep there (not even Gods) or transportation spells to get in there. This way you're completely safe from everything. One key that allows entry, and keep that on your person at all times. As it's on the plane, any Scryings and similars to find out about the key are blocked by the Limited Magic trait of your plane.


Of course, this doesn't really solve killing Elminster. But it does make you sorta immortal, which is a nice plus. Then make a Simulacrum to attack with. It effectively doubles your offensive output. Also give your Familiar some Wand (Familiars get your skills, so as long as you've got UMD, it gets it too and can use wands) of some handy offensive spell, like maybe Enervation. This allows it to do something useful. It might also be worth it to pick up Improved Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedFamiliar). Then you can get free Communes from it and such. Oh, and you can Shapechange it into a Pit Fiend or something, just to make it a bit more useful (it uses your HD so it qualifies).



Also, that skill system you're using is wrong. You get 4*(Class Standard+Int) skill points on level 1, and Class Standard+Int skill points every level thereafter (Wizards get 2 as a base, so 2+Int for you). You're always capped at "Character Level + 3" in skills; this means you can have no more than 4 ranks in a skill on level 1, and no more than 23 on level 20.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-11, 12:44 AM
whats in the srd I think is not nessasarily core, I'm not seeing Improved Familiar in the PHBI, is it in PGtF or DMGI or FRCS?

But I am in AWE. Im gonna change some ranks in Electric Guitare profession to UMD now.

Also does Pit-fiend dire rat familiar get the 1/year wish?

Eldariel
2009-06-11, 12:48 AM
whats in the srd I think is not nessasarily core, I'm not seeing Improved Familiar in the PHBI, is it in PGtF or DMGI or FRCS?

It's in DMG. It's much the same as Leadership.


But I am in AWE. Im gonna change some ranks in Electric Guitare profession to UMD now.

Also does Pit-fiend dire rat familiar get the 1/year wish?

Unfortunately (Luckily? :smallconfused:) Pit Fiend's Wish is a Spell-Like Ability and thus not granted by Shapechange (for the record, free Wishes are just about the most broken thing in the game). It's like the only thing in the multiverse that's not granted. Actually, I have a better idea: get an Improved Familiar with a solid Wisdom-score, Shapechange your familiar into a Planetar and have it be a Cleric. This also enables you to use "Cooperative Metamagic" from Incantatrix to Persist all its spells. Extra actions!

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-11, 12:52 AM
It's in DMG. It's much the same as Leadership.



Unfortunately (Luckily? :smallconfused:) Pit Fiend's Wish is a Spell-Like Ability and thus not granted by Shapechange (for the record, free Wishes are just about the most broken thing in the game). It's like the only thing in the multiverse that's not granted. Actually, I have a better idea: get an Improved Familiar with a solid Wisdom-score, Shapechange your familiar into a Planetar and have it be a Cleric. This also enables you to use "Cooperative Metamagic" from Incantatrix to Persist all its spells. Extra actions!

:smallbiggrin:

High five? I wonder if the Profession: Electric Guitar Player got me any laughs, c'mon, Guitar showdown of ultimate destiny! Think El is base player? Acoustic?

Eldariel
2009-06-11, 01:02 AM
:smallbiggrin:

High five? I wonder if the Profession: Electric Guitar Player got me any laughs, c'mon, Guitar showdown of ultimate destiny! Think El is base player? Acoustic?

You must be aware that you've got way more skillpoints than that. I already stated it above; your skills are a bit messed-up. First of all, maximum ranks in skills are: Class Level + 3 - that means 4 ranks on level 1, and 23 ranks on level 20. This means you can't add 2/level or any such. This also means you can start with 4s in all the skills you max on level 1.

Other bonuses can increase the results (such as stat modifier, synergies and so on), but ranks (the things you can buy each level) are maxed out at Class Level + 3.


The second thing: You gain skill points as follows:
Level 1 you get 4*(Class Base + Int). All other levels, you get Class Base + Int. Class Base is stated in every class description; Wizard's is 2. Then you get your Int-modifier as a bonus - as a Human with 18 Int or Elf with 20 Int, this means you'll have 2 + 5 (Humans get 1 point bonus) skill points per level to use (until your level-up bonuses are applied - the number of skills you get per level should increase on 8, 16 and whenever you read the Tome of Clear Thought +5, and whenver you get the permanencied Polymorph Any Object). And on first level, you're given (2 + 5)*4 or 28 skill points to spend.

So you can max far more than 4 skills; you can easily max 7 different skills (useful ones include all the Knowledges, Tumble, Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen and the social types) from level 1, and on level 8, you can start putting points to an 8th skill. Note that cross-class skills are basically capped at half the maximum ranks of class skills (and that cross-class skills cost twice as much to buy; you get 2 ranks in Spot for the price of 4 ranks total, and that's your maximum for level 1).


And yeah, I chuckled at your skill choices but for this particular exercise, chances are you'll be better off spending them on something useful (remember again, your familiar inherits the skills). Also, my theory is that El is a vocalist. He sure likes playing his mouth. :smallwink:


EDIT: Oh, and for god's sake, max out Spellcraft and Concentration. Those are essentials for a Wizard; without Concentration, you'll just lose spells to damage, environment, defensive casting and such, and without Spellcraft, you can't learn new spells, figure out what others are casting and so on.

JeminiZero
2009-06-11, 01:07 AM
Here's a build I have in ther works based on the Dweomerkeeper (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a). You might find some information useful, but it has not been extensively reviewed. You could consider swapping 5 archmage for 1 cleric / 4 Dweomerkeeper to get Supernatural Spell 1/day.

Race: Any with either wizard or cleric as favored class

01 Cleric 1-Domains: Planning for Extend Spell (Persistent Spell prerequisite), Magic Domain (Dweomerkeeper prerequisite), Char Feat: Persistent Spell
02 Wizard 1
03 Wizard 2-Char Feat: Alternate Source Spell (See below)
04 Wizard 3
05 Wizard 4
06 Dweomerkeeper 1-Char Feat: Practiced Spellcaster Wizard
07 Dweomerkeeper 2
08 Dweomerkeeper 3
09 Dweomerkeeper 4-Char Feat: DMM Persistent Spell
10 Dweomerkeeper 5
11 Dweomerkeeper 6
12 Dweomerkeeper 7-Char Feat: Skill Focus-Spellcraft (Archmage prerequisite)
13 Dweomerkeeper 8
14 Dweomerkeeper 9
15 Dweomerkeeper 10-Char Feat: School Focus-One of Choice (Archmage prerequisite)
16 Wizard 5-Wizard Feat: School Focus-One of Choice (Archmage prerequisite)
17 Archmage 1 [Arcane Reach]
18 Archmage 2 [Mastery of Shaping]-Char Feat: Quicken Spell
19 Archmage 3 [Whatever you want]
20 Archmage 4 [Whatever you want]

Alternate Source Spell: This lets you memorize your wizard spells as divine spells, at the cost of 1 caster level. Practiced spellcaster Wizard makes up for this and the 1 cleric splash needed to qualify for Dweomerkeeper (You are allowed to apply feats in the order most advantageous to yourself, so you can apply practiced spellcaster after Alternate Source Spell). Using divine spells, you no longer suffer Arcane Spell Failure. You can wear heavy armor and shields, or cast Stone Body and all that jazz. (Compared to the wizard buff spells this doesn't grant much more in terms protection. Its main use is that you can employ obfuscating stupidity (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ObfuscatingStupidity) and pretend to be a dumb armored fighter until you drop a Maw of Chaos on them).

More importantly, you can apply Divine Metamagic to your divine wizard spells. The cleric splash grants you Turn Undead needed for this. This is almost as good as the Incantatrix instant magic. Both let you can cast spells without increasing spell slot level. However, Instant metamagic has limited uses per day, whereas DMM is only limited by your nightstick stockpile, but requires you to take the appropriate DMM feat. Shapechange into a Solar, access cleric spells, and you can DMM persist those as well (since they are divine).

Supernatural Spell: This is the Dweomerkeeper's claim-to-fame broken ability. It lets you cast spells as supernatural abilities (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Supernatural_Ability): ignores spell resistance, costly or rare material components, XP loss AND cannot be dispelled. The XP loss is especially pertinent as that is the main factor limiting the most powerful spells, e.g. Wish without XP cost. The text specifies that it can only be applied to spells with casting time of 1 standard action or less, but since Supernatural Wish (limited or otherwise) can duplicate any wizard spell of 6th/8th level or lower and is 1 standard action, there is very little that is really out of your reach. If you apply Supernatural Spell to your (DMM persisted) buffs, they become immune to dispelling (but not AMF).

Using Supernatural Wish to emulate Shadow Simulacrum (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Simulacrum) (which normally has a 12 hour casting time) you can create a permanent copy of any monster with 40 or less HD (if you boost your caster level, you can copy higher HD monsters). As a supernatural ability, you don't actually need a component of that monster (or the XP cost, but you already know that). Unlike undead, there is no limit to the number of simulacra you can control, so given your own demiplane and enough time, you can create a world conquering army (Or Elminster killing army as the case maybe).

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-11, 01:12 AM
Aside from having I think 4-8 too many on level 1 I think I have the proper amount of skills not counting what I have in UMD (2), Dechepher Script (4) and Alchemy (2), though I intend to shift soem skills into UMD for the Familiar, any suggestions on base creature?

OH OH! OH! Shadow Simulcrum a tarrasque!

Eldariel
2009-06-11, 01:14 AM
Aside from having I think 4-8 too many on level 1 I think I have the proper amount of skills not counting what I have in UMD (2), Dechepher Script (4) and Alchemy (2), though I intend to shift soem skills into UMD for the Familiar, any suggestions on base creature?

You should have:
28 points on level 1
+7 on level 2
+7 on level 3
+7 on level 4
+7 on level 5
+7 on level 6
+7 on level 7
+8 on level 8
+8 on level 9
+8 on level 10
+8 on level 11
+8 on level 12

etc. You definitely have way too few. And the maximum ranks is 3+Character Level, not Character Level*2 like you seem to have it right now. On level 1, you can have 4 ranks in a skill, on level 2 you can have 5, on level 3 you can have 6 ranks, on level 20 you can have 23 ranks. Those 38-rank things? Can't have those before level 35.


Base creature? I suggest Human for the skill points and the bonus feat on level 1. Since you'll be Polymorph Any Objecting anyways, you'll be fine.


EDIT: The Tarrasque has too much HD (40 is the limit, The Tarrasque has 48), and the thing sucks anyways.

EDIT#2: Base familiar? Hmm, I like Pseudodragons myself - Telepathy is handy. That said, Imp & Quasit are both pretty nice too. And Celestial Hawk has 14 Wis, which makes him an excellent subject for Planetar-shape. If you won't take Improved Familiar, just plain Hawk is a decent choice, for example.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-11, 01:18 AM
You should have:
28 points on level 1
+7 on level 2
+7 on level 3
+7 on level 4
+7 on level 5
+7 on level 6
+7 on level 7
+8 on level 8
+8 on level 9
+8 on level 10
+8 on level 11
+8 on level 12

etc. You definitely have way too few. And the maximum ranks is 3+Character Level, not Character Level*2 like you seem to have it right now. On level 1, you can have 4 ranks in a skill, on level 2 you can have 5, on level 3 you can have 6 ranks, on level 20 you can have 23 ranks. Those 38-rank things? Can't have those before level 35.


Base creature? I suggest Human for the skill points and the bonus feat on level 1. Since you'll be Polymorph Any Objecting anyways, you'll be fine.

I meant for the familiar, my skills were:

Spellcraft 4, Knowledge (Arcana) 4, Knowledge (Planes) 4, Concentration 4, UMD 2, Profession (Gourmet chef) 4, Alchemy 2, Dechepher script 4

Lvl2: 7sp 2 (Arcana), 2 (Spellcraft), 2 (Concentration), 1 (Profession Gourmet Chef)
Lvl3: 7sp 4 (Arcana), 4 (Spellcraft), 4 (Concentration), 2 (Profession Gourmet Chef)
Lvl4: 7sp 6 (Arcana), 6 (Spellcraft), 6 (Concentration), 3 (Profession Gourmet Chef) 21
Lvl5: 7sp 8 (Arcana), 8 (Spellcraft), 8 (Concentration), 4 (Profession Gourmet Chef)
Lvl6: 7sp 10 (Arcana), 10 (Spellcraft), 10 (Concentration), 5 (Profession Gourmet Chef)
Lvl7: 7sp 12 (Arcana), 12 (Spellcraft), 12 (Concentration), 6 (Profession Gourmet Chef)
Lvl8: 8 sp 14 (Arcana), 14 (Spellcraft), 14 (Concentration), 8 (Profession Gourmet Chef) 22
Lvl9: 8 sp 16 (Arcana), 16 (Spellcraft), 16 (Concentration), 10 (Profession Gourmet Chef)
Lvl10: 8 sp 18 (Arcana), 18(Spellcraft), 18 (Concentration), 12 (Profession Gourmet Chef)
Lvl11: 8 sp 20 (Arcana), 20(Spellcraft), 20 (Concentration), 14 (Profession Gourmet Chef)
Lvl12: 8 sp 22 (Arcana), 22(Spellcraft), 22 (Concentration), 16 (Profession Gourmet Chef) 23
Lvl13: 8 sp 24 (Arcana), 24(Spellcraft), 24 (Concentration), 18 (Profession Gourmet Chef)
Lvl14: 8 sp 26 (Arcana), 26(Spellcraft), 26 (Concentration), 20 (Profession Gourmet Chef)
Lvl15: 8 sp 28 (Arcana), 28 (Spellcraft), 28 (Concentration), 20(Prof: GourmetChef),2(Prof:ElectricGuitar) 28nt
Lvl16: 11 sp 30 (Arcana), 30 (Spellcraft), 30 (Concentration), 20(Prof: GourmetChef),7(Prof:ElectricGuitar) 29nt
Lvl17: 11 sp 32 (Arcana), 32 (Spellcraft), 32 (Concentration), 20(Prof: GourmetChef),12(Prof:ElectricGuitar)
Lvl18: 11 sp 34 (Arcana), 34 (Spellcraft), 34 (Concentration), 20(Prof: GourmetChef),17(Prof:ElectricGuitar)
Lvl19: 11 sp 36 (Arcana), 36 (Spellcraft), 36 (Concentration), 20(Prof: GourmetChef),22(Prof:ElectricGuitar)
Lvl20: 11 sp 38 (Arcana), 38 (Spellcraft), 38 (Concentration), 20(Prof: GourmetChef),27(Prof:ElectricGuitar)30nt



arent I able to put at lvl 2+ 2 skills per class skill and only 1 in crossclass? I'm gonnareread your post I think I'm missing something here.

I thought it was class skill is 1 point = 1 point to a maximum of 2 each level
cross class is a maximum of 1 each level. As I vaguely recall in NWN2 putting 2 ranks in.

Eldariel
2009-06-11, 01:20 AM
I meant for the familiar, my skills were:

Spellcraft 4, Knowledge (Arcana) 4, Knowledge (Planes) 4, Concentration 4, UMD 2, Profession (Gourmet chef) 4, Alchemy 2, Dechepher script 4

Lvl2: 7sp 2 (Arcana), 2 (Spellcraft), 2 (Concentration), 1 (Profession Gourmet Chef)
Lvl3: 7sp 4 (Arcana), 4 (Spellcraft), 4 (Concentration), 2 (Profession Gourmet Chef)
Lvl4: 7sp 6 (Arcana), 6 (Spellcraft), 6 (Concentration), 3 (Profession Gourmet Chef) 21
Lvl5: 7sp 8 (Arcana), 8 (Spellcraft), 8 (Concentration), 4 (Profession Gourmet Chef)
Lvl6: 7sp 10 (Arcana), 10 (Spellcraft), 10 (Concentration), 5 (Profession Gourmet Chef)
Lvl7: 7sp 12 (Arcana), 12 (Spellcraft), 12 (Concentration), 6 (Profession Gourmet Chef)
Lvl8: 8 sp 14 (Arcana), 14 (Spellcraft), 14 (Concentration), 8 (Profession Gourmet Chef) 22
Lvl9: 8 sp 16 (Arcana), 16 (Spellcraft), 16 (Concentration), 10 (Profession Gourmet Chef)
Lvl10: 8 sp 18 (Arcana), 18(Spellcraft), 18 (Concentration), 12 (Profession Gourmet Chef)
Lvl11: 8 sp 20 (Arcana), 20(Spellcraft), 20 (Concentration), 14 (Profession Gourmet Chef)
Lvl12: 8 sp 22 (Arcana), 22(Spellcraft), 22 (Concentration), 16 (Profession Gourmet Chef) 23
Lvl13: 8 sp 24 (Arcana), 24(Spellcraft), 24 (Concentration), 18 (Profession Gourmet Chef)
Lvl14: 8 sp 26 (Arcana), 26(Spellcraft), 26 (Concentration), 20 (Profession Gourmet Chef)
Lvl15: 8 sp 28 (Arcana), 28 (Spellcraft), 28 (Concentration), 20(Prof: GourmetChef),2(Prof:ElectricGuitar) 28nt
Lvl16: 11 sp 30 (Arcana), 30 (Spellcraft), 30 (Concentration), 20(Prof: GourmetChef),7(Prof:ElectricGuitar) 29nt
Lvl17: 11 sp 32 (Arcana), 32 (Spellcraft), 32 (Concentration), 20(Prof: GourmetChef),12(Prof:ElectricGuitar)
Lvl18: 11 sp 34 (Arcana), 34 (Spellcraft), 34 (Concentration), 20(Prof: GourmetChef),17(Prof:ElectricGuitar)
Lvl19: 11 sp 36 (Arcana), 36 (Spellcraft), 36 (Concentration), 20(Prof: GourmetChef),22(Prof:ElectricGuitar)
Lvl20: 11 sp 38 (Arcana), 38 (Spellcraft), 38 (Concentration), 20(Prof: GourmetChef),27(Prof:ElectricGuitar)30nt



arent I able to put at lvl 2+ 2 skills per class skill and only 1 in crossclass? I'm gonnareread your post I think I'm missing something here.

I thought it was class skill is 1 point = 1 point to a maximum of 2 each level
cross class is a maximum of 1 each level. As I vaguely recall in NWN2 putting 2 ranks in.

Heh, there's the confusion: Class skill = 1 point for 1 point to the maximum of 1 per level and cross-class is a maximum of ½ per level (and it costs two skill points to get extra 1 rank).

JeminiZero
2009-06-11, 01:23 AM
EDIT: The Tarrasque has too much HD (40 is the limit, The Tarrasque has 48), and the thing sucks anyways.


Indeed, while its a powerful creature in its own right, its high HD make it difficult to copy. You could instead try to create a Simulacrum army of Solars (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103253).

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-11, 01:24 AM
So have all my skill points then at lvl 2+?

What sort of spellcasting would I expect a Pitfiend to retain that it gets as Su/Ex or should I be focusing on finding the best combat type 25hd or less monster?

Also whats 40hd that I can simulcrum to attack it with? I imagine making the Demiplane to retreat to rest for 1 second in real time and then coming back for more would be pushing it, so making simulcrum army.... eh.... not required, I'm trying to go for more of a pure arcane caster (to JeminiZero) and limiting cheese.

So if I take Improved Familiar, Ild have a pit fiend or Adult Gold Dragon (its a mount! huzzah!) ally with a shadow simulcrum of something big, bad and scary?

*grumbles goes off to rewrite skills*

Is there a list of high HD monsters? Maybe Juvinile Prismatic/Force dragons?

Eldariel
2009-06-11, 01:29 AM
So have all my skill points then at lvl 2+?

What sort of spellcasting would I expect a Pitfiend to retain that it gets as Su/Ex or should I be focusing on finding the best combat type 25hd or less monster?

Pit Fiend wouldn't get much spellcasting. That's why I'm now suggesting Planetar and then Polymorph into a combat form. Planetar gets the spellcasting of a level 17 Cleric, an ability Shapechange copies. You can make a Horned Devil with Level 17 Cleric's spells.


Also whats 40hd that I can simulcrum to attack it with? I imagine making the Demiplane to retreat to rest for 1 second in real time and then coming back for more would be pushing it, so making simulcrum army.... eh.... not required, I'm trying to go for more of a pure arcane caster (to JeminiZero) and limiting cheese.

So if I take Improved Familiar, Ild have a pit fiend or Adult Gold Dragon (its a mount! huzzah!) ally with a shadow simulcrum of something big, bad and scary?

Simulacrum yourself. It's always fun. As for Shadow Simulacrum, Young Adult Force Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm#forceDragon) is a pretty good option. Granted, it only has level 15 spellcasting, but it's still pretty kickass and has CR 28; should be a formidable addition to your "party" (that is, you, your familiar and any illusionary duplicates you generate).

Phane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#phane) is also nice. I've always found those incredibly cool, and it's only 36 HD with a bunch of awesome abilities (not the least of which "save game")

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-11, 01:31 AM
Is it dyjunctionable/banishable? Now would I get to pick out the spells for either the dragon or the planetar?

What would the DC Knowledge check be on these things and what would I need? Planes? Knowledge (Obscure Epic Abominations)?

Eldariel
2009-06-11, 01:35 AM
Is it dyjunctionable/banishable? Now would I get to pick out the spells for either the dragon or the planetar?

What would the DC Knowledge check be on these things and what would I need? Planes? Knowledge (Obscure Epic Abominations)?

The Planetar is your familiar; you can pretty much tell it what to do. As for the Dragon, it's your creation so sure. And Disjunction pretty much bones you: I strongly suggest having heavy countermagic available for it. Shaped (you have Archmage's Mastery of Shaping - leave a hole for yourself in the middle) Anti-Magic Field around you would probably force the Disjunction to dispel it before affecting anything, so that'd be a decent defense, and something you should probably have online anyways.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-11, 01:36 AM
I may need to make a knowledge check though to make sure its somethng I know of or is familiar with, what would the expected DC be and in what skill?

And freeeearghk, that means I'mma need to roll up 2 more character sheets, one for the force dragon and one for the Planetar.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-11, 01:39 AM
The Planetar is your familiar; you can pretty much tell it what to do. As for the Dragon, it's your creation so sure. And Disjunction pretty much bones you: I strongly suggest having heavy countermagic available for it. Shaped (you have Archmage's Mastery of Shaping - leave a hole for yourself in the middle) Anti-Magic Field around you would probably force the Disjunction to dispel it before affecting anything, so that'd be a decent defense, and something you should probably have online anyways.

With a hole in it so I retain casting would I be able to cast spells directed at something outside of it or would I need some kind of hole not just around me but piercing the field? (Facing away from Elminster maybe so he'ld need to spot it?) Or maybe just use a Prismatic Sphere? Am I able to cast past that?

(srry for double post)

Eldariel
2009-06-11, 01:40 AM
I may need to make a knowledge check though to make sure its somethng I know of or is familiar with, what would the expected DC be and in what skill?

And freeeearghk, that means I'mma need to roll up 2 more character sheets, one for the force dragon and one for the Planetar.

Dragons are Arcane, so that. DC is 10+HD + 5 for everything useful, so base DC is 50 and +5 for every useful piece of information you learn. With 23 Ranks, +15 Int and +25 Moment of Prescience, making that check is childs' play (your bonuses alone add up to +63).

Planetars are The Planes, something you've got maxed anyways. It's a good idea to max:
Arcane
The Planes
Religion
Nature
Dungeoneering (this covers Aberrations)

and maybe Local; those are used for Monster Identification. History might be worthwhile too, seeing that it can cover some eldritch horrors from the beginning of time you wouldn't know of otherwise. Oh, and that Moment of Prescience I just used above? It's an awesome spell; have one online at all times. It can be used for +25 to Initiative, among other things (or: "I go first").



EDIT: AMF is an Emanation and doesn't block line of effect so you can cast through it just fine. It's just an area spell like Disjunction that specifically targets the AMF first that comes to question here. Technically Disjunction would dispel all spells anyways, but there's the chance that DM rules otherwise making AMF handy. Other than that, Prismatic Sphere is decent, but you should focus on offense when you get to him; toss Dimensional Lock, few Disjunctions and Generic Offense in his generic direction.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-11, 01:43 AM
Dragons are Arcane, so that. DC is 10+HD + 5 for everything useful, so base DC is 50 and +5 for every useful piece of information you learn. With 23 Ranks, +15 Int and +25 Moment of Prescience, making that check is childs' play (your bonuses alone add up to +63).

Planetars are The Planes, something you've got maxed anyways. It's a good idea to max:
Arcane
The Planes
Religion
Nature
Dungeoneering (this covers Aberrations)

and maybe Local; those are used for Monster Identification. History might be worthwhile too, seeing that it can cover some eldritch horrors from the beginning of time you wouldn't know of otherwise. Oh, and that Moment of Prescience I just used above? It's an awesome spell; have one online at all times. It can be used for +25 to Initiative, among other things (or: "I go first").



EDIT: AMF is an Emanation and doesn't block line of effect so you can cast through it just fine. It's just an area spell like Disjunction that specifically targets the AMF first that comes to question here.

This just gets better and better though rolling the dragon's and planetars stats will suck, whats the dragons CL? 15 Sorceror? Lvl 6 spells?

Moment of presnience, is that core?

Eldariel
2009-06-11, 01:48 AM
This just gets better and better though rolling the dragon's and planetars stats will suck, whats the dragons CL? 15 Sorceror? Lvl 6 spells?

Moment of presnience, is that core?

You can just check at SRD yourself (yes, all the stuff in basic SRD is from Core - the Psionic, Deity and Epic stuff is all free contents from Expanded Psionics Handbook, Deities & Demigods and Epic Level Handbook respectively). Yes, it's Core. A Level 8 Divination, one you should always have online.

Also, you should always have Foresight online. Prevents you from being flat-footed, among other things. Since you have two standard actions, you can have a readied Counterspell-action constantly readied out of combat in one, allowing you to counter any Disjunctions thrown your way if you lose Initiative.


And Dragon is a CL 15 Sorcerer, or level 7 spells.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-11, 01:56 AM
You can just check at SRD yourself (yes, all the stuff in basic SRD is from Core - the Psionic, Deity and Epic stuff is all free contents from Expanded Psionics Handbook, Deities & Demigods and Epic Level Handbook respectively). Yes, it's Core. A Level 8 Divination, one you should always have online.

Also, you should always have Foresight online. Prevents you from being flat-footed, among other things. Since you have two standard actions, you can have a readied Counterspell-action constantly readied out of combat in one, allowing you to counter any Disjunctions thrown your way if you lose Initiative.


And Dragon is a CL 15 Sorcerer, or level 7 spells.

Just doubled checked the PHB (hmm I love my hard copy hmm) and its there. Awesome.

Though to keep in mind: Elminster NPC will also be allowed at the beginning of the "day" to cast all of the defencive buffs he wishes and would usually make.

He doens't have Persistence, though could he get a metamagic rod for it?

Also, should I grab Persistence for the Metamagic effect effect or do I not need it for it?

Eldariel
2009-06-11, 02:05 AM
Just doubled checked the PHB (hmm I love my hard copy hmm) and its there. Awesome.

Though to keep in mind: Elminster NPC will also be allowed at the beginning of the "day" to cast all of the defencive buffs he wishes and would usually make.

Indeed, you can't expect an easy fight. Elminster is still a level 29 Wizard among his other classes. That alone is a frightening prospect; he can duplicate most of what you're doing here (but he's got a limitation too: see below). He also has 10th level slots. Now, you though have an advantage: The Incantatrix-class.

It allows you to most importantly Persist buffs you normally couldn't (such as Shapechange and Polymorph making the whole Shapechange-chain very functional), and apply metamagic for a cheaper cost (an ability he has too, but this allows you to match him). The Free Metamagic-abilities help match his, as well.


Most importantly, it grants you bonus feats meaning you'll probably have a better selection of metamagic than he does. Also, he isn't known for heavy prebuffing with Shapechange-abilities; that really plays into your hands because the extra action from Choker is insanely awesome. Finally, he doesn't have a familiar. A familiar and a Simulacrum able to perform a full casting volley really tips the scales in your favor.

Just remember: Start with Disjunction and Dimensional Lock. Chances are he's got a Contingency to Teleport away in the sight of trouble. Dimensional Lock negates that. Disjunction should strip his defenses (or at least expend his anti-Disjunction tools). Then a second Disjunction should strip his defenses. After that (Arcane Sight can be Permanencied and gives you an easy way to see if his defenses are down), you bombard him with heavily metamagicked whatever. Scorching Ray should work just fine, for example.

If you can knock his defenses down, you might be able to Enervate him too (although Enervating 30+ levels is a lot of work). If so, that's the best plan as it knocks out his best spells and such too. Twinned, Maximized, Empowered (with a Rod) Enervation would be something like 8+1d4 negative levels. Few ways to read it, but it'd be a bitch anyways.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-11, 02:08 AM
anyway(s) to Apply Choker effect onto a Nagahyrda (5 heads able to each make a standard action each round) and double it to 14 standard spellcasting actions + 1 quickened action per round? Assuming I can get him to allow Serpent Kingdoms?

Also, above i edited in a question, do I need to grab persistence to work with metamagic effect?

Anyways, 3 AM for me and I got a couple of days I figure to get this done, I'm heading to bed now before I end up asleep until 7 am the next day.

Eldariel
2009-06-11, 02:21 AM
You should definitely grab Persistent Spell. It's an awesome metamagic on its own right and with Incantatrix, there's just no excuse not to. It is your wildcard, the thing Elminster doesn't have, it is your chance at victory, the ace in your sleeve.

As for Nagahydra, it doesn't have the "multiaction" as a special ability, so I'm not sure you'd get it at all. You still only have 1 mind, after all. At any rate, the only way you could get it would be to Shapechange into one of those instead of Choker, which'd cost you Quickness. Nay, I think you're best off going PAO Sarrukh (30 Int) > Shapechange Choker > PAO Horned Devil. Should give you the best bang for your buck.

48 Int puts you at very respectable +19 to all Int-related checks, 3 extra 9th level slots (and 4 extra 7th, and under - 5 extra level 1-3), base DC for 9th level spells at 38 (before Spell Focus, et al.) and overall, all kinds of awesome. And Choker gives you the nice extra action as a Su-ability, and Horned Devil just so happens to be a great all-rounder at 31 Str, 25 Dex, 25 Con, 50' Fly Speed, 19 Natural Armor, a fine natural attack flurry, Regeneration and a bunch immunities and resistances. Oh, and hands for casting spells. You can easily add 11 to Dex and Con, getting you a total of 36 both if desired.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-11, 11:10 AM
Strange, because in the description it says each head gets to act independently and gets a standard action each, each round.

!!!! Just in, we're getting XP halfway to level 21, so now I can open up spells with xp costs!


Now the POA Planetar stuff is that something a DM would consider cheesy or a viable strategy for a campaign build to fight Elminster? While it is only one encounter I think part of the implied constraints is that my claim was a "level 20 powergamed & optimized caster could defeat Elminster" while I didn't say it directly but the implication from the DM's point of view is that the build shouldn't be something that would upset a professional DM.

Ugh, I think I need to start putting this crud in an excel spreadhseet.


Am I able to use contingency to Dimensional Door myself in the exact opposite side of Elminsters line of sight when he casts Dysjunction?

Eldariel
2009-06-11, 12:43 PM
Strange, because in the description it says each head gets to act independently and gets a standard action each, each round.

!!!! Just in, we're getting XP halfway to level 21, so now I can open up spells with xp costs!


Now the POA Planetar stuff is that something a DM would consider cheesy or a viable strategy for a campaign build to fight Elminster? While it is only one encounter I think part of the implied constraints is that my claim was a "level 20 powergamed & optimized caster could defeat Elminster" while I didn't say it directly but the implication from the DM's point of view is that the build shouldn't be something that would upset a professional DM.

Ugh, I think I need to start putting this crud in an excel spreadhseet.

By default, you're gonna need to do "cheesy" stuff to beat Elminster. Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object and Shapechange are among the top ~10 spells in PHB (others being Greater Planar Binding, Planar Binding, Gate, Time Stop, Disjunction, Astral Projection et co.), and tend to be cheesy, but I don't see you winning without them. It's not like you are chain Gating things or getting infinite free Wishes or such though, so this should fly.

And the better use of having ½ XP to level 21 is that you can now pick Craft-feat or two and Craft your own items to save money and chew bubblegum.


Am I able to use contingency to Dimensional Door myself in the exact opposite side of Elminsters line of sight when he casts Dysjunction?

You can Contingency Dimension Door/Teleport/whatever to a variety of conditions. If the condition is such that the ability triggers vs. Disjunction, and you've prescribed "Dimension Door 50' forward" and Elminster happens to be before you, yeah, that could work. Remember though that you have to precast the Dimension Door and how it moves you. Most useful conditions off the top of my head:
-"When I speak "Command Word"."

Explanation: Speaking is a free action you can make out of turn order. This effectively allows you to trigger your contingency with a word at any point. Mostly works best with Foresight in effect though.

-"When there's AMF 5' from me..."

Explanation: Well, it's easy to fear Anti-Magic Fields as a Wizard - teleporting out of them is really handy. Of course, this is rather incomplete wording.

-"When someone targets me with an attack..."

Explanation: Dodging any kinds of attacks is kinda handy. This does just that. Doesn't necessarily cover area effects or anti-magic fields though.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-11, 01:07 PM
Chew bubblegum heh :)

Now if I'm flying what would be the optimal way to move around with dimensional door?

Eldariel
2009-06-11, 01:31 PM
Now if I'm flying what would be the optimal way to move around with dimensional door?

What do you mean? 200' up should be solid.

Vendle
2009-06-11, 01:39 PM
I'm not that well-read on cheese builds, but my wife has a pretty good record with her sorcerer vs. other spellcasters. An idea we came up with is a sudden Greater Bestow Curse with the Fatespinner PrC to reduce the target's chance of saving; on the off chance they do save, force a reroll.

Greater Bestow Curse is not deadly by itself, but it can deny a class ability, like spellcasting.

JeminiZero
2009-06-11, 01:48 PM
Shaped (you have Archmage's Mastery of Shaping - leave a hole for yourself in the middle) Anti-Magic Field around you would probably force the Disjunction to dispel it before affecting anything, so that'd be a decent defense, and something you should probably have online anyways.


I feel I should point out that if you took my (probably less than ideal) advice and dropped 5 Archmage for 1 cleric/4 Dweomerkeeper, you would lose Shape Mastery.

Of course if you really wanted supernatural spell and mastery of shaping, you could go with something like 1 Cleric / 4 Wizard / 4 Dweomerkeeper / 10 Incantatrix / 1 Archmage. Since Dweomerkeeper does not have a spell level requirement, you can take it at level 5 with just 4 wizard levels. But thats rather feat hungry.

Edit: Use Cloistered Cleric so you can get 3 domains including Magic. Get your other domains to be domination for free spell focus-enchantment, and planning for free extend spell. That should help mitigate the feat shortage.



Simulacrum yourself. It's always fun. As for Shadow Simulacrum, Young Adult Force Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm#forceDragon) is a pretty good option. Granted, it only has level 15 spellcasting, but it's still pretty kickass and has CR 28; should be a formidable addition to your "party" (that is, you, your familiar and any illusionary duplicates you generate).


Since Simulacrum halves HD and all that, so the DM would likely half the caster level (rounded down) as well. So a YA-Force Dragon would likely be stuck with level 7 spellcasting. It might be better getting a creature with lots of SLAs and/or SUs, since these abilities are not explicitly tied to HD.



Is there a list of high HD monsters? Maybe Juvinile Prismatic/Force dragons?


1. Try this, go through the list of Epic Monsters (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicMonstersAndObstacles.htm).
2. Check their stats (and whether their HD exceeds 40)
3. Figure out how the stats would change after converting to simulacrum
4. After you have a bunch of these, pick the one you think suits you best.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-11, 02:22 PM
Possible creatures:

-Demilich
-Forcedragon if only so somethign to eat him. (Would still have 550ish hp)
-Winterwight
-Lavawight
-Sirrush
-Tayella
-Brachyurus

These seem like good ideas.

JeminiZero
2009-06-11, 02:33 PM
Possible creatures:
-Winterwight
-Lavawight


Don't bother with these 2, go straight for their maker instead: Shadow of Void (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/shadowOfTheVoid.htm) and Shape of Fire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/shapeOfFire.htm)

None of the beasts (Sirrush, Brachyurus,Tayellah) have flight.

I kinda like the Infernal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#infernal) and the Gibbering Orb (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/gibberingOrb.htm) (although the Orb is a bit of a glass cannon).

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-11, 02:44 PM
Don't bother with these 2, go straight for their maker instead: Shadow of Void (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/shadowOfTheVoid.htm) and Shape of Fire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/shapeOfFire.htm)

None of the beasts (Sirrush, Brachyurus,Tayellah) have flight.

I kinda like the Infernal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#infernal) and the Gibbering Orb (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/gibberingOrb.htm) (although the Orb is a bit of a glass cannon).

I'm going with the Infernal i think! See all the SLA it has? How many can he use per day?

JeminiZero
2009-06-11, 03:14 PM
The text specifies the SLA frequency. The weaker ones are usable at will. The semi-decent ones are only 1/day. And even then, with his reduced effective caster level, they might have trouble negotiating spell resistance.

What he can do is summon balors (real balors, not discount simulacra), and his attacks steal spells. And he can only be affected by offensive spell from a particular caster once before becoming immune to it.

If you want offense the gibbering orb can shoot 5 eye rays at 1 target. Its rays are Supernatural abilities and ignore resistance/cannot be counterspelled. It can shoot among other things, energy drain and disjunction.

Think about that for a moment, Elminster getting hit by 5 disjunctions/energy drains the round after you summon the orb. Unfortunately, its only an abberation (and doesn't have the considerable immunities which abominations possess) so Elminster can try and dominate it and turn it against you. And at 13 HD , its simulacra will be very very fragile.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-12, 02:12 PM
Updated stats for Bakura The Dark


Bakura The Dark Human
Diviner 6 Archmage 4 Barred School (Enchantment) Incantrix 10 (barred Evocation)

83 Years old.


At level 1:

STR 8 -1
DEX 14 +2
CON 14 +2
INT 18 +4
WIS 12 +1
CHA 10 +0

Spells Ill pick later. I have 28 skill points.
So Spellcraft 4, Knowledge (Arcana) 4, Knowledge (Planes) 4, Concentration 4, Profession (Gourmet chef) 4, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) 4, Knowledge (Religion) 4.
Level 2 Wizard, pick 2 spells
Level 3 New feat! Iron Will, pick 2 spells
Level 4 +1 Int, Pick 2 spells, 2 new spells
Level 5 New feat! Pick Persistence Spell, 2 new spells.
Level 6 Pick Incantrix 1, New Feat! Pick Spell Focus (Transmutation), Bonus Feat! Empower Spell. Choose Evocation as Banned school, *sniff* good bye Bigby. 2 new spells
Level 7 Incantrix 2, Gain Cooperative Metamagic. 2 new spells.
Level 8 Incantrix 3, Gain +1 Int (now at 22). 2 new spells, Gain metamagic effect (Su).
Level 9 Incantrix 4, New feat! Spellfocus (Illusion), 2 new spells, gain nothing apparently? 36,000 GP Gain headband of Intellect +6. Am I able to put more then 2 into a class skills?
Level 10 Incantrix 5, 2 new spells, Gain Metamagic Spell Trigger (Su).
Can Spell Trigger work on a Metamagic Rod to stack effects?
Level 11 Incantrix 6, 2 new spells, Gain Concentration (Su).
Level 12 Incantrix 7, NEW FEAT! Skillfocus (Spellcraft), +1 Int (23) 2 new spells, Gain Instant Metamagic (Su).
Level 13 incantrix 8, 2 new spells, Gain Snatch Spell (Su)
Level 14 Incantrix 9, 2 new spells,
Level 15 Incantrix 10, New Feat! Grab Empower, 2 new spells, 9 SP, Gain Improved Metamagic (Su). 200,000 GP-36,000GP from HBoI, Buy Tome of Clear thought, gain +5 to Int, now has 28 Int.
Level 16, Archmage 1, +1 Int (24+5+1 Inherent, 35 with Headband), 12 SP, new spells. Grab Arcana SLA Shapechange, Sacrificing a 5th level slot and a 9th level slot.
Level 17 Archmage 2,2 new spells, Arcane Reach (Su) Sacrificing a 7th level slot (How this work, I have 1 less 7th level slot, but now any Touch based spell can now has a range of 30 ft?).
Level 18 Archmage 3, NEW FEAT! Quicken Spell, 2 new spells, nab Mastery of Shaping sack a 6th level slot.
Level 19 Archmage 4, 2 new spells, nab Mastery of Elements sack a 8th level slot.
Level 20, Incantrix 10, Archmage 4, Loremaster 1, New Feat! Craft Rod. +1 Int, and from here Grab all of the Greater, Medium Metamagic Rods I can grab. Grab 2 Rings of Counterspelling (2x 4000 gp)

Lvl1: Spellcraft 4, Knowledge (Arcana) 4, Knowledge (Planes) 4, Concentration 4, UMD 2, Profession (Gourmet chef) 2, Craft 4, Alchemy 4, Dechepher script 4 (32) 20 Int
Lvl2: 7sp 5 (Arcana), 5 (Spellcraft), 5 (Concentration), 5 (Profession Gourmet Chef), 5 ( Planes), 5 (Religion), 5 (Dungeoneering)
Lvl3: 7sp 6(Arcana), 6 (Spellcraft), 6 (Concentration), 6 (Profession Gourmet Chef) ), 6 ( Planes), 5 (Religion), 6 (Dungeoneering)
Lvl4: 7sp 7 (Arcana), 7 (Spellcraft), 7 (Concentration), 7 (Prof Gourmet Chef) , 7( Planes), 7 (Religion), 7 (Dungeoneering) 19 int
Lvl5: 7sp 8 (Arcana), 8 (Spellcraft), 8 (Concentration), 8 (Profession Gourmet Chef) , 8( Planes), 8 (Religion), 8 (Dungeoneering)
Lvl6: 7sp 9 (Arcana), 9 (Spellcraft), 9 (Concentration), 9 (Prof Gourmet Chef) , 9( Planes), 9(Religion), 5 (Dungeoneering)
Lvl7: 7sp 10 (Arcana), 10 (Spellcraft), 10 (Concentration), 10 (Prof Gourmet Chef) , 10( Planes), 10 (Religion), 9 (Dungeoneering)
Lvl8: 8 sp 11 (Arcana), 11 (Spellcraft), 11 (Concentration), 11 (Prof Gourmet Chef), 11(Planes),11(Religion),10(Dungeonering)
1 (Local) 20 int
Lvl9: 8 sp 12 (Arcana), 12 (Spellcraft), 12(Concentration), 12 (Prof Gourmet Chef),12( Planes),12(Religion),11(Dungeoneering)
2 (Local) 20 int
Lvl10: 8 sp 13 (Arcana), 13(Spellcraft), 13(Concentration), 13 (Prof Gourmet Chef), 13( Planes),13(Religion),12(Dungeoneering)
3 (Local)
Lvl11: 8 sp 14 (Arcana), 14(Spellcraft), 14 (Concentration), 14 (Prof Gourmet Chef), 14( Planes),14(Religion),13(Dungeoneering)
4 (Local)
Lvl12: 8 sp 15 (Arcana), 15(Spellcraft), 15 (Concentration), 15 (Prof Gourmet Chef),15(Planes),15(Religion),14(Dungeonering)
5 (Local) 21
Lvl13: 8 sp 16 (Arcana), 16(Spellcraft), 16 (Concentration), 16 (Prof Gourmet Chef),16( Planes),16(Religion),15(Dungeonering)
6 (Local)
Lvl14: 8 sp 17 (Arcana), 17(Spellcraft), 17 (Concentration), 17 (Prof Gourmet Chef),17( Planes),17(Religion),16(Dungeonering)
7 (Local)
Lvl15: 8 sp 18 (Arcana), 18 (Spellcraft), 18 (Concentrat), 18(Prof GourmetChef), 17(Planes),17(Religion),17(Dungeonering)
8 (Local) 22 int
Lvl16: 11 sp 19 (Arcana), 19 (Spellcraft), 19 (Concentrat), 19(Prof GourmetChef), 19(Planes),19(Religion),19(Dungeonering)
9 (Local) 27
Lvl17: 11 sp 20 (Arcana), 20 (Spellcraft), 20 (Concentrat), 20(Prof GourmetChef), 20(Planes),20(Religion),20(Dungeonering)
10 (Local)
Lvl18: 11 sp 21 (Arcana), 21 (Spellcraft), 21 (Concentrat), 20(Prof GourmetChef), 21(Planes),21(Religion),21(Dungeonering)
11 (Local)
Lvl19: 11 sp 22 (Arcana), 22 (Spellcraft), 22 (Concentrat), 20(Prof GourmetChef), 22(Planes),22(Religion),23(Dungeonering)
12 (Local)
Lvl20: 12 sp 23 (Arcana), 23 (Spellcraft), 23 (Concentrat), 20(Prof GourmetChef), 23(Planes),23(Religion),23(Dungeonering)
13 (Local), 1 Prof (Electric Guitar) 28nt

23: Knowledge (Arcana)
23: Spellcraft
23: Concentration
20: Profession ( Gourmet Chef)
23: Knowledge (Planes)
23: Knowledge (Religion)
23: Knowledge (Dungeoneering)
13: Use Magic Device*
1: Profession (Electric Guitar Soloist)

*Switch the entries for History Local for UMD

8 -3
14 -3
14 -3
18+5(Book)+5(level 20)+6(Headband of Int)+1=35
10 +1 age
8+1 age

5 -3
11 +0
11 +0
35 +12
11 +0
9 -1

Spell Levels/Spell Per day
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
+Int Bonus
+School Specialization

6 7 7 7 7 5 5 5 5 4
6 8 8 8 8 6 6 6 6 5


Feats: Summon Familiar, Scribe Scroll, Spellcasting Prodigy, Iron Will, Extend Spell, Persist Spell, Empower Spell, Craft Rod, Spell Focus (Transmutation), Spell Focus (Illusion), Skillfocus (Spellcraft).
Supernatural Abilities: Arcane Reach, Improved Metamagic, Metamagic Effect, Cooperative Metamagic, Metamagic Concentration, Instant Metamagic, Snatch Spell, Spell Like Ability 2/day (Shapechange), Mastery of Shaping, Mastery of Elements.

Spells Known:

Level1:
Feather Fall
Magic Missile
Shield
Mage Armor
Ray of Enfeeblement
Alarm
Mount
True Strike
Charm Person
Sleep
Color Spray
Enlarge Person
Ray of Clumsiness
Protection from X

Level 2:
Glitterdust
Rope Trick
Mirror Image
Bull's Strength
Fox intellect(b)
Cats Grace(b)
Owl Wisdom(b)
Bears Endurance(b)

Level 3:
Magic Weapon, Greater
Haste
Ray of Exhaustion
Orb of Sonic
Dispel magic (b)

level 4:
Dimensional Anchor
Dimension Door
Stoneskin
Enervation

level 5:
Teleport
Shadow Evocation
Overland Flight
Contingent Energy Resistance
wall of stone (b)
Permanency (b)

level 6:
Dispel Magic, Greater
True Seeing
Disintegrate
Antimagic Field
Globe of Invulnerbility (b)

level 7:
Banishment
Teleport, Greater
Arcane Sight, Greater
Energy Immunity
Ethereal Jaunt(b)
Resistance, Superior (b)
Stun Ray (b)
Stern Reproof (b)
Avasculate (b)
Spell Matrix(b)

level 8:
Mind Blank
Maze
Greater Shadow Evocation
Moment of Prescience
Prismatic Wall(b)
Protection from Spells(b)
Polymorph Any Object(b)


Level 9:
Time Stop
Energy Drain
Shades
Prismatic Sphere
Absorption
Reaving Dispel
Dyjunction
Shapechange



587,000 gp remaining and it seems spell scrolls are as cheap as dirt.

Evocation and Enchantment are my bared schools I will double check spelllist for wrong spells.

Says when i become an Incantrix I take Abjuration as a additional Specialized school and have to bar another school, do I get a new Abjuration spellslot for each spell level?

:edited spell list of a few evocation spells:

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-12, 06:02 PM
Is it possible to do the Polymorph Any Object to become Permantely a leShay? They have 33 int.

edit: I see if the maximum HD is 15 then I geuss not.

Coidzor
2009-06-12, 06:16 PM
Why the profession Gourmet Chef, anyway?

And why are you naming him after a character from Yugioh Abridged and not giving some kind of gaydar?

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-12, 06:30 PM
Why the profession Gourmet Chef, anyway?

And why are you naming him after a character from Yugioh Abridged and not giving some kind of gaydar?


Hes not from the Abridged for one, and its the coolest evil sounding name I could fine for a human so sue me.

wowy319
2009-06-12, 06:31 PM
Perhaps someone who can cast a ton of energy drains? Might I suggest a sorcerer with incredibly high Charisma and a lot of items improving touch attacks? *adjusts crown*

Coidzor
2009-06-12, 07:14 PM
Hes not from the Abridged for one, and its the coolest evil sounding name I could fine for a human so sue me.

Ok, and the profession: Gourmet Chef? Is that part of the plan to get close enough to Elminster to attack?

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-12, 07:15 PM
Ok, and the profession: Gourmet Chef? Is that part of the plan to get close enough to Elminster to attack?

It for giggles as I'm not certain if theres any other skill really to put it in, maybe I can adjust it over to UMD but still.

Dagren
2009-06-12, 07:46 PM
It for giggles as I'm not certain if theres any other skill really to put it in, maybe I can adjust it over to UMD but still.Gourmet chef (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html), right? :smallbiggrin:

Doc Roc
2009-06-12, 07:46 PM
This is basically impossible. Go take a look at the discussions of the paranoid wizard on the other boards. I'm not going to try and give you false hope here. Elminster falls into the category of Immensely Epic and wears plot armor thicker than a tank's. It shows in his abilities.

If you win this, I want an end to end transcript. And popcorn.

Stormthorn
2009-06-12, 07:55 PM
I dont know how useful being a specialist will be. If you fail he will toast you very quickly and you wont be able to do a damn thing no matter how many extra spells you have. Best to avoid limiting your magic if you can.

Does your mage have a way of getting the drop on El?
IF your using the El from the Forgotten Realms setting book then you could cast ahead of time 2x Maximized Occular Scorching Ray while using a Lens of Ray Splitting.

Then its a full round action to make 12 ranged touch attacks. El has about 218 HP and if you hit with all those maximized rays thats 288 damage.

Or, since El is good, you could walk up to him and shake his hand while having contact poison on your gloves.


And if you need more Int shapechanging (or polymorphing) wont help since it only changes physical ability scores (according to the SRD). But a Tome of Anathema with permenantly give you +2 Int and -2 Wisdom. You could always read a couple of those and get in the habit of casting Owls Wisdom to make up for the lost wisdom.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-12, 08:03 PM
The general gist is that I'll have 40 some odd INT to give a large bonus to my spell capacity, Ill come in prepared to kill him with a small army of Shadow Simulcrum Monsters from the Epic levle handbook AND my familiar shapechanged to something big and scary, and one of these monsters can cast 5 Dyjunctions per round.

Its a purely stats based one on one encounter/mental excersize of can a powergamed lvl 20 caster kill Elminster, right now I think I got a good shot with Incantatrix goodness. As all my buffs can be persisted his can't. So its just a matter of killing HIS buffs and blasting him with Dyjunction while I contingency+dimensional door to dodge his counter-dyjunctions while my pets eat him and use my second action per round to counter spell anything sent my way.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-12, 08:13 PM
So your plan for killing him is to be a CR appropriate encounter?

Doc Roc
2009-06-12, 08:15 PM
No. His CAN be persisted. He's epic. He has whatever he wants.

How much do you know about the time-traits trickery?
And if you think he won't counterspell your MDJ, you have a new think coming.
And if you get pets from the epic level handbook, which I'm not clear on how you're getting them..... Imagine what he gets. I bet you don't even make it into his tower. Hell, I'll run elminister for this.

Stormthorn
2009-06-12, 08:16 PM
What if El starts the battle with a Maximized Energy Drain? Your out all your 9th level magic then.

He also has the ability to turn any spell he counters. If you get into a Disjunction duel he will win by countering all yours. For every spell you burn you lose a spell and do nothing to him. For every spell he casts (in the countering) he burns a spell but disjuncts you once (via turning your spell).


And if you think he won't counterspell your MDJ, you have a new think coming.
Ninja'd
But mine explained why it sucks if he counters you.


So your plan for killing him is to be a CR appropriate encounter?
A 1v1 duel between a lvl 20 and a lvl ~30-40* is not CR appropriate

*I think he is a Wizard 20, Arc 5, Fight 2, Rogue 1, Clrc 6, Epic 4. Cant remembe rhis cleric level. The Epic levels are how FR handles people over level 20. He tehcnicaly has nearly 20 epic levels but he spent then as "effective" levels of Wizard and Archmage

Doc Roc
2009-06-12, 08:18 PM
I'll play elminister. Since I am the defending party, I chose the arena.


How about the positive energy plane?

Stormthorn
2009-06-12, 08:22 PM
I'll play elminister. Since I am the defending party, I chose the arena.


How about the positive energy plane?

In The Azure Bonds he was able to get boots to safely walk over the Plane of Gems (save each round or turn to gem) at a point where it meets the PEP. So...yea.

Doc Roc
2009-06-12, 08:33 PM
Death by awesome + dimension lock == lulz

What the heck, man? Why would I let you teleport? I'm epic. You go nowhere I don't want you to.

I'll be running at the very least greater anticipate teleport. Probably I'll even run one of those fancy-fancy spells like divert teleport. Maybe I'll cast psychic reformation via limited wish on myself, pick up craft contingent spell, alacritous cogitation, cast timestop, and use genesis with alacritous cogitation to create a fast time plane, step in while still stopped, spend two thousand rounds getting ready, and then come after your dumb bum. Much love, El.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-12, 08:36 PM
The general gist is that I'll have 40 some odd INT to give a large bonus to my spell capacity, Ill come in prepared to kill him with a small army of Shadow Simulcrum Monsters from the Epic levle handbook AND my familiar shapechanged to something big and scary, and one of these monsters can cast 5 Dyjunctions per round.

Its a purely stats based one on one encounter/mental excersize of can a powergamed lvl 20 caster kill Elminster, right now I think I got a good shot with Incantatrix goodness. As all my buffs can be persisted his can't. So its just a matter of killing HIS buffs and blasting him with Dyjunction while I contingency+dimensional door to dodge his counter-dyjunctions while my pets eat him and use my second action per round to counter spell anything sent my way.

Why doesn't Bakura try killing him with ancient Egyptian laser beams?

The Glyphstone
2009-06-12, 08:38 PM
What if El starts the battle with a Maximized Energy Drain? Your out all your 9th level magic then.

He also has the ability to turn any spell he counters. If you get into a Disjunction duel he will win by countering all yours. For every spell you burn you lose a spell and do nothing to him. For every spell he casts (in the countering) he burns a spell but disjuncts you once (via turning your spell).



You can't Turn a Disjunction, it's an area spell.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-12, 08:41 PM
The constraints were:

-Blank Arena in the middle of nowhere
-His stats from the Epic Level handbook (1 ftr, 3 cleric, 5 archmage, Wizard 24 ) CR 39

His Immunities will be randomized, his SLA will be randomized so I cant just prepare for exactly what it is says on the tin.

He Does not have the Persistence Spell metamagic feat.

As an Incantrix I can at level 20 roughly Persist something around 15-18 spells per day to last 24 hours. So all of my defencive spells and buffs will last 24 hours.

I will Polymorph into Asimar then into Planetar to make its effect permament gaining 4 int to my score (i'll write this in to have happened at reach level 15). Before the battle I will Shapechange to a choker to gain a extra standard action per turn allowing me to always keep a counterspell ready and then alter self/polymorph into a approbiate combat form like Horn Devil.

I also turn my familiar into asimar and then a planetar making its duration permanent it gains 17th cl for cleric and can cast deathward on me which I then persist to last 24 hours (immune to negative levels).

Using Simulcrum I summon forth several epic monsters including a gibbering orb its Dysjunction is a SLA and cannot be countered! And it can fire 5 of these per round at a single target.

Before entering the arena I cast a few crital buffs like Mind Blank on my party, cast Shadow Evocation to gain Contingency specifying that if he cats Dyjunction in my direction teleport 500' up.

I'll figure out a spell by spell strategy once I've picked my spells and finalized my feats.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-12, 08:42 PM
Death by awesome + dimension lock == lulz

What the heck, man? Why would I let you teleport? I'm epic. You go nowhere I don't want you to.

I'll be running at the very least greater anticipate teleport. Probably I'll even run one of those fancy-fancy spells like divert teleport. Maybe I'll cast psychic reformation via limited wish on myself, pick up craft contingent spell, alacritous cogitation, cast timestop, and use genesis with alacritous cogitation to create a fast time plane, step in while still stopped, spend two thousand rounds getting ready, and then come after your dumb bum. Much love, El.

Oh and yeah almost forgot to mention, only spells from the Players Hand Book and the Epic hand book, and the Dungeons masters Guide.

BTW As I think Rich Burlew proved being Epic doesn't automatically mean you win. And I'm still finalizing the build.

Doc Roc
2009-06-12, 08:47 PM
Good, then I think I have all the spells I used :: gentle smile ::
I don't need alacritous cogitation or craft contingent. Those were just good examples. I'm pretty sure he's already got a fast time plane. So I just need to stop and duck in, and get my **** ready. Then come for you.

Rich Burlew doesn't play by the rules, and as you'll notice, Xykon trashed all comers.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-12, 09:01 PM
Good, then I think I have all the spells I used :: gentle smile ::
I don't need alacritous cogitation or craft contingent. Those were just good examples. I'm pretty sure he's already got a fast time plane. So I just need to stop and duck in, and get my **** ready. Then come for you.

Rich Burlew doesn't play by the rules, and as you'll notice, Xykon trashed all comers.

Anticpate Teleport doesn't seem to be in the PHB, Neither can I find a divert teleport like spell, the best you can do is dimensional lock which would only delay a determined enemy. As for having a different-time demiplane if it doesnt say he has one in the Handbook then he doesn't have one and you would need to create one in that day. All the exact rules between the DM and me haven't been worked out yet but lets awesome we both "woke up" at the same time round 0 each, for the sake of the argument.

Doc Roc
2009-06-12, 09:05 PM
So, he doesn't get epic spells, precast buffs, or anything of that nature, and you get incantatrix, and neither of you can't have spells from anything but core. I can kill you so dead it'll be hilarious.

Divert teleport is a common epic spell.
Anticipate teleport is from the spell compendium and also in complete arcane. It's so close to core that I'm just accustomed to using it.

This is an unwinnable debate, but I will be happy to see you on the field of battle. I'm not trying to be mean, but I don't want to get anyone upset. Only way to do this is to sit down and test it.

What books are open? And yes, it does matter.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-12, 09:08 PM
He doesn't have Epic Spellcasting feat sooooo he wouldn't be able to cast them anyways even if he knew them.

Anyone know if I do the PAO if the new Int I get is simply my base and thus my inherent int from my levels gets added on?

Doc Roc
2009-06-12, 09:11 PM
the ELH predates the modern system for epic level spells..


What's the sources allowed? This is really important.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-12, 09:16 PM
I was pretty sure it was the opposite, the Elminster of the ELH comes after the new system, but according to the DM in question:

"PHB 1, DMG, MM1. FR handbook (the 3.5e). If you want, players guide to faerun.

Recommended gold means you have the gold, then you either use it to buy stuff or you use it to craft stuff if you have the feats.
No rule variants, straight D&D out of the box. ECL reduces the char level if you don't have enough exp to stay level 20 (ie, a drow would be level 18).
I may, or may not, change the spells against which E is immune, and the ones that E can cast once per day, so that you two do not know in advance."

Doc Roc
2009-06-12, 09:20 PM
So you know simulacrum has a very serious Xp cost, right? Do you just get free xp? And a 12 hour casting time?

Unless you're willing to let me play E, I'm out of this thread as you will never place any trust in my opinions or statements.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-12, 09:23 PM
So you know simulacrum has a very serious Xp cost, right? Do you just get free xp? And a 12 hour casting time?

If I recall its 8000gp for the scroll according to the DMG which if I recall doesn't require a material component to use, I just need to make the spellcraft check, correct me if I'm wrong the 12 hour casting time hadn't originally occured to me but should make no difference to the plan.

Also I start with 10k xp towards level 21.

Doc Roc
2009-06-12, 09:24 PM
So you get 12xK hours, and he gets none? That's fair :: roll eyes ::

Clearly silly.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-12, 09:26 PM
So you get 12xK hours, and he gets none? That's fair :: roll eyes ::

Clearly silly.

He can cast whatever spells he would normally cast HES the defender, its just Ed greenwoods fault for not considering that an Incantatrix can outwait his spells.

Anyways, redoing my skills, I figure I can do the Planetar thing at level 15 to gain 2 extra SP at 16 onwards. Then I need to pick a rough draft of what spells to prepare.

Stormthorn
2009-06-12, 09:42 PM
Since it seems like your allowed to use any source and are planing on abusing Shapechange then why dont you just make a pun-pun?

Eldariel
2009-06-12, 09:44 PM
Since it seems like your allowed to use any source and are planing on abusing Shapechange then why dont you just make a pun-pun?

'cause his sources are:
PHB, DMG, MM, PGtF, ELH

Can't pull Pun-Pun with those. Also, I'm fairly sure his DM wouldn't agree to run the fight vs. Pun-Pun while a twinked out Wizard 20 might still pass through ;)

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-12, 09:45 PM
Since it seems like your allowed to use any source and are planing on abusing Shapechange then why dont you just make a pun-pun?

Except.... I'm not? PHB1, MM1, Faerun, DMG1, thats IT thats ALL, he said I could if I absolutely needed it use Serpent Kingdoms for summoning Monsters and I had planned to sick a Nagahydra at him but i decided that it didn't quite do what I hope it would do.

:edit: Improved Familiar isn't required to get the Familiar to be shapechangeable right? Just cast PAO on him to Assimar then to planetar then hes a cleric and then shapechange it to Horn devil and have him buff me which i then persist?

:edit 2: new skills!


Lvl1: Spellcraft 4, Knowledge (Arcana) 4, Knowledge (Planes) 4, Concentration 4, UMD 2, Profession (Gourmet chef) 2, Craft 4, Alchemy 4, Dechepher script 4 (32) 20 Int
Lvl2: 7sp 5 (Arcana), 5 (Spellcraft), 5 (Concentration), 5 (Craft Rod), 5 ( Planes), 5 (Religion), 5 (Dungeoneering)
Lvl3: 7sp 6(Arcana), 6 (Spellcraft), 6 (Concentration), 6 (Craft Rod) ), 6 ( Planes), 5 (Religion), 6 (Dungeoneering)
Lvl4: 7sp 7 (Arcana), 7 (Spellcraft), 7 (Concentration), 7 (Craft Rod) , 7( Planes), 7 (Religion), 7 (Dungeoneering) 19 int
Lvl5: 7sp 8 (Arcana), 8 (Spellcraft), 8 (Concentration), 8 (Craft Rod) , 8( Planes), 8 (Religion), 8 (Dungeoneering)
Lvl6: 7sp 9 (Arcana), 9 (Spellcraft), 9 (Concentration), 9 (Craft Rod) , 9( Planes), 9(Religion), 5 (Dungeoneering)
Lvl7: 7sp 10 (Arcana), 10 (Spellcraft), 10 (Concentration), 10 (Craft Rod) , 10( Planes), 10 (Religion), 9 (Dungeoneering)
Lvl8: 8 sp 11 (Arcana), 11 (Spellcraft), 11 (Concentration), 11 (Craft Rod), 11(Planes),11(Religion),10(Dungeonering)
0 (Use Magic Device) 20 int
Lvl9: 8 sp 12 (Arcana), 12 (Spellcraft), 12(Concentration), 12 (Craft Rod),12( Planes),12(Religion),11(Dungeoneering)
1 (Use Magic Device) 20 int
Lvl10: 8 sp 13 (Arcana), 13(Spellcraft), 13(Concentration), 13 (Craft Rod), 13( Planes),13(Religion),12(Dungeoneering)
1 (Use Magic Device)
Lvl11: 8 sp 14 (Arcana), 14(Spellcraft), 14 (Concentration), 14 (Craft Rod), 14( Planes),14(Religion),13(Dungeoneering)
2 (Use Magic Device)
Lvl12: 8 sp 15 (Arcana), 15(Spellcraft), 15 (Concentration), 15 (Craft Rod),15(Planes),15(Religion),14(Dungeonering)
2 (Use Magic Device) 21
Lvl13: 8 sp 16 (Arcana), 16(Spellcraft), 16 (Concentration), 16 (Craft Rod),16( Planes),16(Religion),15(Dungeonering)
3 (Use Magic Device)
Lvl14: 8 sp 17 (Arcana), 17(Spellcraft), 17 (Concentration), 17 (Craft Rod),17( Planes),17(Religion),16(Dungeonering)
3 (Use Magic Device)
Lvl15: 8 sp 18 (Arcana), 18 (Spellcraft), 18 (Concentrat), 18(Craft Rod), 17(Planes),17(Religion),17(Dungeonering)
4 (Use Magic Device) 21 Intelligence -> 30
Lvl16: 13 sp 19 (Arcana), 19 (Spellcraft), 19 (Concentrat), 19(Craft Rod), 19(Planes),19(Religion),19(Dungeonering)
7 (Use Magic Device) 30 Intelligence
Lvl17: 13 sp 20 (Arcana), 20 (Spellcraft), 20 (Concentrat), 20(Craft Rod), 20(Planes),20(Religion),20(Dungeonering)
10 (Use Magic Device)
Lvl18: 13 sp 21 (Arcana), 21 (Spellcraft), 21 (Concentrat), 20(Craft Rod), 21(Planes),21(Religion),21(Dungeonering)
13 (Use Magic Device), 1 Profession (Electronic Guitar Solo-ist)
Lvl19: 13 sp 22 (Arcana), 22 (Spellcraft), 22 (Concentrat), 20(Craft Rod), 22(Planes),22(Religion),22(Dungeonering)
16 (Use Magic Device), 2 Profession (Electronic Guitar Solo-ist
Lvl20: 14 sp 23 (Arcana), 23 (Spellcraft), 23 (Concentrat), 20(Craft Rod), 23(Planes),23(Religion),23(Dungeonering)
19 (Use Magic Device), 4 Profession (Electronic Guitar Solo-ist 32 int

23: Knowledge (Arcana)
23: Spellcraft
23: Concentration
20: Craft ( Rod )
23: Knowledge (Planes)
23: Knowledge (Religion)
23: Knowledge (Dungeoneering)
19: use Magic Device
4: Profession (Electric Guitar Soloist)

Feats: Summon Familiar, Scribe Scroll, Spellcasting Prodigy, Iron Will, Extend Spell, Persist Spell, Empower Spell, Craft Rod, Spell Focus (Transmutation), Spell Focus (Illusion), Skillfocus (Spellcraft).
Supernatural Abilities: Arcane Reach, Improved Metamagic, Metamagic Effect, Cooperative Metamagic, Metamagic Concentration, Instant Metamagic, Snatch Spell, Spell Like Ability 2/day (Shapechange), Mastery of Shaping, Mastery of Elements.


I should now by level 20 have 32 base int, +1 so 33 from age and then 39 from the headband, I'm thinking of at least one wish to get to 40 Int.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-14, 04:07 PM
From what I can tell I have possibly 39 INT for a +14 Modifier to my Intelligence, I have 23 ranks in Spellcraft, so thats 37 base spellcraft.

To persist shapechange it is apparantly a 18 + (3 times Modified spell level) which to get from a lvl 9 spell to persist is 15, so 3 times 15 is 45+18 is 63.

That leaves 26 remaining, how would I make my spellcraft check to persist things? I can make it 24 with Fox Intellect but thats still outside the range of the d20.

:edit: correction, its 60 as Improved metamagic makes it 1 less, but that at best is still a natural 20 I think.

mostlyharmful
2009-06-14, 04:13 PM
From what I can tell I have possibly 39 INT for a +14 Modifier to my Intelligence, I have 23 ranks in Spellcraft, so thats 37 base spellcraft.

To persist shapechange it is apparantly a 18 + (3 times Modified spell level) which to get from a lvl 9 spell to persist is 15, so 3 times 15 is 45+18 is 63.

That leaves 26 remaining, how would I make my spellcraft check to persist things? I can make it 24 with Fox Intellect but thats still outside the range of the d20.

:edit: correction, its 60 as Improved metamagic makes it 1 less, but that at best is still a natural 20 I think.

So get Craft Wondrous and make an Item that boosts the skill which caps out at +30 pre epic, or employ assistant mages to provide aid another checks (plus your familiar) each are +2 and they stack. Add a luck stone, a Skill Focus(spellcraft) (good feat to get into archmage) and have a luck sword in your pack if you still fluff it.

Eldariel
2009-06-14, 04:14 PM
From what I can tell I have possibly 39 INT for a +14 Modifier to my Intelligence, I have 23 ranks in Spellcraft, so thats 37 base spellcraft.

To persist shapechange it is apparantly a 18 + (3 times Modified spell level) which to get from a lvl 9 spell to persist is 15, so 3 times 15 is 45+18 is 63.

That leaves 26 remaining, how would I make my spellcraft check to persist things? I can make it 24 with Fox Intellect but thats still outside the range of the d20.

:edit: correction, its 60 as Improved metamagic makes it 1 less, but that at best is still a natural 20 I think.

You have Skill Focus: Spellcraft for 40. Then you can use Moment of Prescience if need be, although better just try to find an item with +10 (or more - it's possible to get +30 pre-epic) Competence Spellcraft. And yeah, there's a +1 competence-to-all Ioun Stone, and Luckstone for +1 Luck to all.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-14, 04:20 PM
I hear rumor that Instant metamagic has been errated so I can't Persist Shapechange (has to be a spell level I can already cast from?) anymore or was this only for the 3.0 version? (Though it would mean I could still persist levels 1-4)

edit: also, is it possible to persist the prayer beads effect so I can for that 12 hours summon a bigger Simulcrum?

mostlyharmful
2009-06-14, 04:31 PM
I hear rumor that Instant metamagic has been errated so I can't Persist Shapechange (has to be a spell level I can already cast from?) anymore or was this only for the 3.0 version? (Though it would mean I could still persist levels 1-4)

edit: also, is it possible to persist the prayer beads effect so I can for that 12 hours summon a bigger Simulcrum?

Who cares if you can't persist it? it's a 10mins/level spell which with CL boosters and a rod of greater extend can be up for the whole adventuring day. It's the ridiculous stuff like Greater Blink and Greater Ironguard that's 1round/level that really makes a difference when you stack and persist them. Just cast Shapechange as an extended CL 28 spell and it'll last as long as you need it.

Eldariel
2009-06-14, 04:32 PM
I hear rumor that Instant metamagic has been errated so I can't Persist Shapechange (has to be a spell level I can already cast from?) anymore or was this only for the 3.0 version? (Though it would mean I could still persist levels 1-4)

Instant Metamagic has been errata'd. It cannot be used to raise spell level higher than what you could normally cast. That's because Instant Metamagic doesn't require Spellcraft check. This doesn't hurt Metamagic Effect or Cooperative Metamagic at all though; they are "limited" by the Spellcraft-check only.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-14, 04:38 PM
Instant Metamagic has been errata'd. It cannot be used to raise spell level higher than what you could normally cast. That's because Instant Metamagic doesn't require Spellcraft check. This doesn't hurt Metamagic Effect or Cooperative Metamagic at all though; they are "limited" by the Spellcraft-check only.

Awesome then my plan to persist the effect of karma beads so I can simulcrum a 50HD rather then 40 HD Force Dragon will still work then.

Is there a name for the item with +10 spellcraft or would I need to chuck craft rod for craft wondrous item?

I'm thinking if I buy a few 8k simulcrum scrolls I can expand my reserves a bit, but assuming an xp cost of 4000 each I think the gp cost of the scrolls are 20k each so I'm limiting my self to 3 to 4 scrolls.

tyckspoon
2009-06-14, 04:45 PM
Boccob's Relic, the Tome of Ancient Lore, grants +5 Competence to spellcraft as its basic property (as of the Magic Item Compendium printing.) Bigger bonuses usually aren't found in specifically named items; they're just generic competence bonus items you make.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-14, 04:48 PM
Boccob's Relic, the Tome of Ancient Lore, grants +5 Competence to spellcraft as its basic property (as of the Magic Item Compendium printing.) Bigger bonuses usually aren't found in specifically named items; they're just generic competence bonus items you make.

Yeah but I think I'm stuck with the DMG and PHB for items though.

Ring of Arcane might appears to be in the Complete Arcane and not in the Core books (I think) what are the other ways to gain Cl or does Ioun stone stack if I get a second one?


This isn't an optimizing point that I'm going to make but more to cover a potential pitfall in case your DM tries to pull a fast one on you: consider taking the Shadow Weave Magic feat and choose Shar as your patron deity.

Why take a feat that hoses your Transmutation and Evocation spells? Well, Elminster is Mystra's lapdog (for a legitimate reason, as he holds a good deal of her power), so if you actually somehow manage to pull something off that would kill him, your DM could just play the "Mystra Says No" card and shut off all your magical power. Spells, SLAs, Supernaturals, all of them gone, and even though it's obviously bad sportsmanship it's completely in-character for her and Elmunchkin.

But...if you're a Shadow Weave user, she/your DM can't do anything of the sort, not without it being outright cheating anyway. Just a loophole you might want to consider closing.

Ao prevents Mystra from doing that sort of thing according to the fluff.

Dacia Brabant
2009-06-14, 10:39 PM
This isn't an optimizing point that I'm going to make but more to cover a potential pitfall in case your DM tries to pull a fast one on you: consider taking the Shadow Weave Magic feat and choose Shar as your patron deity.

Why take a feat that hoses your Transmutation and Evocation spells? Well, Elminster is Mystra's lapdog (for a legitimate reason, as he holds a good deal of her power), so if you actually somehow manage to pull something off that would kill him, your DM could just play the "Mystra Says No" card and shut off all your magical power. Spells, SLAs, Supernaturals, all of them gone, and even though it's obviously bad sportsmanship it's completely in-character for her and Elmunchkin.

But...if you're a Shadow Weave user, she/your DM can't do anything of the sort, not without it being outright cheating anyway. Just a loophole you might want to consider closing.

Elminster1
2009-06-15, 10:24 AM
Why would you want to take out Elminster anyway? He's a phenomenal individual. I hope he smashes you :smallsmile:

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-16, 10:48 PM
The battle has begun!


http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/7163/bakurrach01.png


I cast Simulcrum twice from a Scroll and once from my memorized spell list with a thanks to the persisted effect of Prayer beads (Karma) with an easily made spellcraft check (33, I have at least 40 spellcraft) giving me Caster Level +4 for 24 hours + 1 CL from a Ring of Arcane Might + 1 from an Ioun Stone for a grand HD Copying power of 52. The scrolls I am assuming will at least get me 27 HD assuming I paid additional gold for someone to fork over the remaining 1,700 xp for gold. Under the assumption that I need a Knowledge Check (Planes) and (Dungeoneering) respectively to summon the monsters I have in mind I use a scroll of Moment of Prescience before hand and activate it before casting Simulcrum for a +25 bonus to my Knowledge (Planes) roll, relying on my 37 base Knowledge (+14 Int, 23 ranks) to automatically make the dungeoneering check twice since 1's is not auto failure with skills.

So I have 3 half HD Simulcrums and cast Veil to make them invisible for the sake of Drama, and when I'm buffing in the next strip have mindblank cover them plus my familiar as well.

As you can probably ascertain by now my build is Wizard 5 Incantatar 10 Archmage 4 and Loremaster 1, I'll link my progression guide upon DM request and my character sheet as well.


http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/669/bakurrach02u.png


Buffs casted in order:
Protection from Good
Shapechange as SLA (Do you need to know what I picked right away? Or would you prefer to be surprised?)
Alter Self Back to 83 Year old Human
Shield
Bear's Endurance
Fox' Intellect
Owl's Wisdom
Cat's Grace
Mirror-Image
Resist Energy (Cold, Fire, Electricity, Sonic, Acid) //Acid from Scroll
Protection from Energy (Cold, Fire, Electricity, Sonic, Acid)
Stoneskin
Overland flight
True Seeing
Protection from Spells
Foresight
Moment of Prescience (from memorized)
Mindblank
Spell Turning
Shadow Evocation Greater (Contingency: When I say the Command word "Mel-") //short for "Melons" Speaking is a free action and can be done out of turn order.
Greater Arcane Sight

Metamagic Effect (Su) with 16 Int + 3 I have 19 times per day I can apply a metamagic effect for a spellcraft check of 18+(Modified Spell level * 3)

I do this for with their Spellcraft DC's in brackets: Protection from Good(36), Shield (36), Bear's Endurance (39), Fox' Intellect(39), Owl's Wisdom(39), Cat's Grace(39), Mirror-Image(39), True Seeing (51), Moment of Prescience (57), Greater Arcane Sight (54).

I have a Pale green Ioun Stone for +1 bonus to saves and skill checks.

My spellcraft is 56 (23 ranks, +3 feat (Skill focus Spellcraft), +16 Int, +1 Ioun Stone, +2 masterwork tool kit, Lenses of Spellfcraft +5, I have my familiar Aid me +2, +2 Synergy from UMD, +1 Prayer from my Familiar turned into a Planetar with Polymorph Any Object (twice once to Assimar then to Planetar, this is done both to myself and my familiar upon reaching level 15) with Cleric caster level 17 spells, +1 using the spell Guidance from Familiar ) I would need to roll a 0 to fail the MOPSpellcraft check so auto success.

I have my familiar (not featured as it would look weird, pretend its invisible and popped out off panel in panel four and in behind El's head in panel five) cast Death ward on me and on my familiar which I also Persist (DC 45, auto succeed) and then I polymorph the familiar into a Horn devil and persist it (DC 45 auto success)

Then I cast True Strike, Greater Teleport myself and the 3 Simulcrums plus my familiar to Shadowdale or wherever Elminster is hanging out at.

Assuming I get a surprise round my first spell is "Empowered Timestop" using a Greater Rod of Empower under the hope that you decided to randomize his immunities and removed it. I still have an action or two to do if this otherwise screws up, if the timestop works "Quicken Dimensional Lock" using Mastery of Shaping to alter its AoE so while in encases Elminster it leaves me and my "party" untouched. How I use the remainder of my turn depends on whether Time Stop worked.

Scrolls used: Shadow Evocation Greater (Contingency), Polymorph, 2x Simulcrum, Moment of Prescience (for the Know(Planes) check), Resist Energy (Acid).


Gonna post this in Fan Comics section once I'm approved.

quick_comment
2009-06-16, 11:57 PM
So....

you get all the greatest cheese in the world, and you force your opponent to be limited to a very small subset.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-17, 12:03 AM
So....

you get all the greatest cheese in the world, and you force your opponent to be limited to a very small subset.

Explain. Be aware I am fighting an opponent with roughly 29 arcane spellcasting levels 19 more then me possibly with epic spellcasting, dozens of artifacts and 3 million gp of items.

Explain to me why resorting to some cheese is unfair to Elminster when BOTH of us are limited to Epic Handbook, PHB, DMG and MM, and PGTF, please ALSO be aware that it was the DM that suggested these constraints.

Explain how I win without using the RAW Incantatrix class or Dweomerkeeper?

quick_comment
2009-06-17, 12:07 AM
Explain. Be aware I am fighting an opponent with roughly 29 arcane spellcasting levels 19 more then me possibly with epic spellcasting, dozens of artifacts and 3 million gp of items.

Explain to me why resorting to some cheese is unfair to Elminster when BOTH of us are limited to Epic Handbook, PHB, DMG and MM, and PGTF, please ALSO be aware that it was the DM that suggested these constraints.

Explain how I win without using the RAW Incantatrix class or Dweomerkeeper?

You dont. Basically by definition, anything you can use to defeat an (even unoptimized) epic mage is stinky cheese. Incantrix is one of the stinkiest kinds. Its like beating a cripple.

Nobody is impressed by using one of, if not the single most powerful prestige class to defeat an unoptimized wizard played like an idiot. Seriously, anything with epic spellcasting should never, ever lose to something without epic spellcasting. Epic dispel, epic energy drain. There, end of battle. And thats without resorting to the game-breaking madness that you can do with epic spells.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-17, 12:16 AM
Woah then you must really hate the Oots geekery thread then because you couldn't have been farther away from the point even if you were going past it in the opposite direction and the point is in a completely different country altogether.

Because you know what maybe if you read the 7 pages here you'ld realize even with this "cheese" that it is STILL a massively hard uphill fight Elminster has a done of immunities randomized ones in this case.

Its a mental excersize and an awesome learning experience for me as I've had not much experiance with building builds before and I really learned alot here.

An epic CAN AND WILL AND SHOULD lose to a non epic if the epic makes mistakes.

quick_comment
2009-06-17, 12:42 AM
Woah then you must really hate the Oots geekery thread then because you couldn't have been farther away from the point even if you were going past it in the opposite direction and the point is in a completely different country altogether.

I dont think anyone in that thread argues that any of the casters (or any of the characters) in the comic are played even close to intelligently. Why? Because there would be no comic at all if Xykon just splatted the party all over the multiverse as he could. Soul-bound V was played like someone's first epic character, making all the classic mistakes.



An epic CAN AND WILL AND SHOULD lose to a non epic if the epic makes mistakes.

No, because worst case scenario, the epic mage casts disjunction, quickened teleport and is gone. Did you counterspell his disjunction? Fine, he casts disjunction, quickened disjunction, quickened teleport. Good luck hunting him down again, now that he knows you are coming. Or he just casts epic teleport, and sneers at your dimensional lock, AMF and whatever else you put in place to trap him. Or even better, he casts disjunction, dominate person and orders you to eat your spell component pouch, strip naked and cast all your spells at a tree.

You cant suprise him, he has foresight. You cant catch him, he can bust out of any cage you put him in and teleport away. You cant kill him because he has epic spells, and he will kill you first.

Deth Muncher
2009-06-17, 12:46 AM
Woah then you must really hate the Oots geekery thread then because you couldn't have been farther away from the point even if you were going past it in the opposite direction and the point is in a completely different country altogether.

Because you know what maybe if you read the 7 pages here you'ld realize even with this "cheese" that it is STILL a massively hard uphill fight Elminster has a done of immunities randomized ones in this case.

Its a mental excersize and an awesome learning experience for me as I've had not much experiance with building builds before and I really learned alot here.

An epic CAN AND WILL AND SHOULD lose to a non epic if the epic makes mistakes.


If it's any consolation, I think it's a nifty thing that you're doing. AND that you're making a comic version of it. :D :thumbsup!:

Doc Roc
2009-06-17, 12:47 AM
We came up with precisely one way to reliably kill an epic character as a non-epic caster, and it involved some very very exotic tech such as the breaching obelisk and a sequence of EX timestops that weren't covered by spell stowaway. We also had to use the Yuirwood as our jumping off point, which is cheesy as can be.

I'll be watching how this goes down, but.... I worry that you're placing a lot of stock in a ridiculously rigged situation.

Eldariel
2009-06-17, 12:56 AM
We came up with precisely one way to reliably kill an epic character as a non-epic caster, and it involved some very very exotic tech such as the breaching obelisk and a sequence of EX timestops that weren't covered by spell stowaway. We also had to use the Yuirwood as our jumping off point, which is cheesy as can be.

I'll be watching how this goes down, but.... I worry that you're placing a lot of stock in a ridiculously rigged situation.

It's worth noting though that this is level 20 Wizard vs. a Elminster. More importantly, as it's not a story written by Ed Greenwood, vs. Elminster without plot armor. We have a lot of data to work on; Elminster doesn't have Epic Spellcasting, which is fairly huge (alone goes a long way towards making this winnable).

He also doesn't tend to use Shapechange or overall, Shape-altering magic and he isn't an Incantatrix. Therefore much of the basic tools used in this attack are unavailable, or unlikely to be in effect, for Elminster. I think this fight vs. Elminster as he's presented in e.g. the books is very much winnable.

Doc Roc
2009-06-17, 01:01 AM
It's true... I find the lack of epic spellcasting completely disorienting, though, to be honest. I'm not sure why you'd leave that out, particularly if he's basically the whipping boy of mystra. It might be doable, but again, I feel like this is a strange layout, where he's almost automatically caught by surprise when really I find it unlikely that he'd be caught off-guard at all.

Kalbron
2009-06-17, 01:09 AM
Well honestly there's something of a surefire* means for Elminster to win against nearly any non-epic spellcasting dependent. Or at least, get on the front foot no matter the circumstances.

Contingency: Antimagic Field, with the trigger being saying the phrase "Not another one of you lackwits attacking me!" :smallbiggrin:

Then Elminster could proceed to club the enemy mage to death considering his fighter level(s) give him a comparative advantage. xD

*I don't have all the sourcebooks, so I've got no idea if there are feats/spells that someone could take to avoid being affected by an Antimagic Field. Disjunction doesn't seem reliable enough to beat it.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-17, 01:10 AM
It's true... I find the lack of epic spellcasting completely disorienting, though, to be honest. I'm not sure why you'd leave that out, particularly if he's basically the whipping boy of mystra. It might be doable, but again, I feel like this is a strange layout, where he's almost automatically caught by surprise when really I find it unlikely that he'd be caught off-guard at all.

Check out some of the short stories, hes been caught flat footed before, heck one time he plane shifhted several time sjust trying to run away from a lich.

Doc Roc
2009-06-17, 01:13 AM
Depressingly, I remember that one.

Eldariel
2009-06-17, 01:14 AM
*I don't have all the sourcebooks, so I've got no idea if there are feats/spells that someone could take to avoid being affected by an Antimagic Field. Disjunction doesn't seem reliable enough to beat it.

The thing is, summoned creatures mob him and rape him in AMF. Indeed, AMF would be a step backwards for him. Also, he can get bombarded by non-magical offense spells (something as simple as Acid Fog + spherical Stone Wall around it would pretty much end his life in AMF), and his motion (and the Wall) can be blocked by Wall of Force for example.

Of course, just spamming Disjunction works too, and theoretically it's possible to attack with reach from outside the AMF with all your buffs on (thanks to Shapechange that's childs' play).


Frankly, I think Elminster is a bit too dumb to live. He deserves to go this way. Will be following the story intently. Although I certainly disagree with leaving Illusionary defenses out, and using Time Stop (you already can cast 3 spells round 1, so Time Stop seems a tad redundant).

Kalbron
2009-06-17, 01:19 AM
Summoned creatures disappear in an AMF. Called creatures are a different story.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm

"An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it."

That doesn't really indicate to me that the Acid Fog would actually work within. More that you could walk safely through any magical cloud effect, with the spell merely reappearing as the field left the spot.

Besides, he could shape it to avoid affecting himself.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-17, 01:21 AM
Which illusory defenses did I leave out?

Also, get this, a Hecadecheires can as a (sp) summon another one, my Simulcrum keeps that ability, I can pop out a fully fledged god killing abomination!!! Course' it stops there as they're unlikely to summon more of its kind (so I can't chain it even if I wanted to) and its possible the DM will have it turn onto whoever is closest. But best case scenario it charges elminster with 100 attacks a round, just need to give it flying and it can murderize the world.

My plan is if Timestop works spam Delayed Blast Sonicballs from Shadow Evocation (Greater) inside of a prismatic sphere, he already can't teleport out and breaking a prismatic sphere takes effort I think.

Doc Roc
2009-06-17, 01:25 AM
Conjuration(Creation) effects are screwy.

Eldariel
2009-06-17, 01:26 AM
Summoned creatures disappear in an AMF. Called creatures are a different story.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm

"An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it."

"If you cast antimagic field in an area occupied by a summoned creature that has spell resistance, you must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against the creature’s spell resistance to make it wink out. (The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.)"

Just summon something with Spell Resistance, or use your own Cleric spellcasting from Planetar to cast the said spell at CL ~22 or so and Persist it. I'd definitely get Persisted Spell Resistance & Divine Power on yourself from your Cleric-casting, btw; if you use Rays, you'll really want to hit with 'em and who knows what screwy Deflection effects he can pull to make him harder to hit.


That doesn't really indicate to me that the Acid Fog would actually work within. More that you could walk safely through any magical cloud effect, with the spell merely reappearing as the field left the spot.

Besides, he could shape it to avoid affecting himself.

That removes the protective qualities though as AMF merely suppresses effects and thus everything goes through it just fine.


Which illusory defenses did I leave out?

I don't see Blur/Displacement on your list.


My plan is if Timestop works spam Delayed Blast Sonicballs from Shadow Evocation (Greater) inside of a prismatic sphere, he already can't teleport out and breaking a prismatic sphere takes effort I think.

You can try. I personally prefer couple of Disjunctions followed by pimped out Enervations and Scorching Rays. Just remember, you always need moar dakka.

Stormthorn
2009-06-17, 01:34 AM
What happens you your carefully placed buffs if you fail to kill him in your suprise round? Actually, why doesnt Elminster have an Action redied in case this happens (since it has several times in his life) or a spell or item so you couldnt scry him to know where he is?

I read a short story in which, when confronted by a powerful foe, Elminster popped off to another plane.

You fail to kill him he casts a quickened timestop, breaks your anchors or whatever your using, and heads off to the positive energy plane or the Far Realm and starts buffing himself.

Also, the singing In The Dark Of The Night was awesome. Solid awesomtanium.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-17, 01:56 AM
I have a couple of plans to avoid getting hit by his dyjunctions, I'm assuming my pets get to do stuff during the surprise round, I have 2 Gibbering Orbs and 1 Hectacheires vieled, the gibbering orbs have 5 eye rays a piece per round that can blast 9th level stuff like no tomorrow.

"*Elminster is sitting in his study, at the top of the old mill near Shadowdale. He's smoking his pipe and relaxing for once.*" is what the DM wrote before I posted my action so far.

Can dysjunction break a Simulcrum?

I got assuming Timestop fails and this IS my surprise round one more move left which I think Ill spend on a AMF and then sick my CR26 Hectacheires and a CR 52 VERY MUCH REAL Hectacheires at him and see if my Familiar can do something to keep him in the AMF.

Thank you storm, I find it works best if your listening to the song while reading mentally chanigng the wording.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-17, 09:12 AM
"*You teleport into Elminster's study to find a mildly surprised Elminster*

"Who..."

*Is all he manages to say before you cast Time Stop. Your spell fizzles and a huge version of a Solar materializes in the center of the room, destroying the straw roof*

"You do realize that now Theo'll have to repair the roof, boy?"

"Yes master? I'm sorry master."

// I can explain you how I did it when we're done "



=============================================

my reaction:

Did the spell successfully cast though wouldn't I get a concentration check or do you mean that it WAS casted but something else negated it? Well under that assumption...


Bakurra: "Well that was worth a shot... Anti Magic Field! Dismiss Veil" \\AMF centered on Elminster but shaped to avoid me and my party members and the Solar.

Assuming that my party members also get to act now I'll roll for their initiative.


http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2123719/ (28)
http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2123721/ (34)
http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2123722/ (20)
http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2123725/ (19)

Turn order is: Gibbering Orb #1, Gibbering Orb #2, then Hecatoncheires Whom is Named Steve. Then my Familiar.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monst...bberingOrb.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monst...hecatoncheires

They're all half HD (13, 13, 26) but have mindblank on them and are positioned outside of both my dimensional lock and the AMF.

#1 goes first. It has 5 eye rays it can use on the Planetar and 5 on Elminster, however because of the AMF no can do there so!

Gibbering Orb #1: Dysjunction, Energy Drain, Energy Drain, Energy Drain, Energy Drain. //A the Planetar


Gibbering Orb #2: irresistible dance, disintegrate, disintegrate, Temperal Stasis, (if it doesn't work) Irresistible Dance. (At the Planetar)

Bakurra: (Talking is a free action) Hecatoncheiries summon!!
Hecatoncheires (Steve): (sp)" Summon Hecatoncheires " (at opposite side of the room to whereever left I still don't have a Dimensional lock as far as I can get it away from me)

And another Hecatoncheires winks into existence, this one real.

And I have my simulcrum one move into the AMF it has SR 35.

So if I'm correct it shouldn't effect it but just in case I'll roll. Its 1d20+CL+feats I think so.

Woot Natural 1! http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2123716/
AMF has no effect on the Simulcrumed Steve.

I'm assuming my (sp) was a part of the action so that ends his turn.

Familiars Turn: "Implosion" at the Solar.

http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2123733/ (18) Real Hectadoncheries turn, assuming that for the encounter I control because it thinks the Simulcrum one is real... or at least hates Elminster more then it hates me... It has 10 int so it can't be that sa

Hecatoncheires: Move action to Elminster, no roll I make will make the AMF effect it. It can attack Elminster 15 times in a round.

http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2123736/

1d20+71 → [10,71] = (81)
1d20+71 → [19,71] = (90)
1d20+71 → [11,71] = (82)
1d20+71 → [10,71] = (81)
1d20+71 → [9,71] = (80)
1d20+71 → [2,71] = (73)
1d20+71 → [19,71] = (90)
1d20+71 → [8,71] = (79)
1d20+71 → [3,71] = (74)
1d20+71 → [13,71] = (84)
1d20+71 → [7,71] = (78)
1d20+71 → [2,71] = (73)
1d20+71 → [13,71] = (84)
1d20+71 → [1,71] = (72)
1d20+71 → [20,71] = (91)

17-20 for critical hit, that makes 3 threat rolls and one miss.
Assuming they all (but the 1) hit:

Threat rolls:
http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2123739/
1d20 → [17] = (17)
1d20 → [10] = (10)
1d20 → [9] = (9)


Damage:
http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2123742/
2d6+20 → [2,3,20] = (25)
2d6+20 → [4,1,20] = (25)
2d6+20 → [3,6,20] = (29)
2d6+20 → [2,5,20] = (27)
2d6+20 → [1,5,20] = (26)
2d6+20 → [1,5,20] = (26)
2d6+20 → [1,4,20] = (25)
2d6+20 → [4,3,20] = (27)
2d6+20 → [2,3,20] = (25)
2d6+20 → [3,6,20] = (29)
2d6+20 → [5,6,20] = (31)
2d6+20 → [6,2,20] = (28)
2d6+20 → [3,3,20] = (26)
2d6+20 → [1,4,20] = (25)
2d6+20 → [5,6,20] = (31)
2d6+20 → [3,5,20] = (28)


Edit/Delete Message



*Goes off to start drawing*

Elminster1
2009-06-17, 09:22 AM
Ummm, no offense, but doesn't Elminster have a Contingency readied? I mean, I would think someone of his awesome power and knowledge would. That would end your sneak attack nonsense right there.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-17, 09:31 AM
So? The point is to try!

Stormthorn
2009-06-17, 09:48 AM
I have a couple of plans to avoid getting hit by his dyjunctions, I'm assuming my pets get to do stuff during the surprise round, I have 2 Gibbering Orbs and 1 Hectacheires vieled, the gibbering orbs have 5 eye rays a piece per round that can blast 9th level stuff like no tomorrow.

Run by me again where a non-epic wizard was able to get the services of a being that could crush him (and Elminster) like bugs?
If thats even possible it sounds like your abusing a flaw in the system. All the summoning spells in the SRD (and even the Planar Cohort for Thaumaturgists) seem designed so that a wizard cant make a being significantly more powerful than himself serve him. You also can shapechange into it, since it has more HD than you (by like, 30).

Finding a loophole in the rules that lets you summon Pun Pun isnt very sporting. And yea, a Hect can kill Elminster because El would have to roll a 20 for every spell he cast to be able to break its SR.

Coidzor
2009-06-17, 09:50 AM
Run by me again where a non-epic wizard was able to get the services of a being that could crush him (and Elminster) like bugs?
If thats even possible it sounds like your abusing a flaw in the system. All the summoning spells in the SRD (and even the Planar Cohort for Thaumaturgists) seem designed so that a wizard cant make a being significantly more powerful than himself serve him. You also can shapechange into it, since it has more HD than you (by like, 30).

They're simulacrums... So he just has to get close enough to make one of it (or know enough about 'em to make one?) and then get out with the simulacrum.

Stormthorn
2009-06-17, 09:59 AM
They're simulacrums... So he just has to get close enough to make one of it (or know enough about 'em to make one?) and then get out with the simulacrum.

That still seems unlikely. They have +100 Spot and Listen and True Seeing and blindsight.
They also can cast Nondetection at will and one would almost certainly have that up at all times, which makes scrying them hard. I mean, you could make the DC but i think somehting as old and powerful as that would notice you scry and take steps to rectify the problem.


Also, for the record, you cant use Simulacrum on it either unless you found a way to raise your caster level well above your actual level. Although you could get a gibbering orb that way.

woodenbandman
2009-06-17, 10:05 AM
Good job, you killed a dumb wizard without any epic spells.

Yawn.

I've only read over the epic spells rules once and I could make a spell that would make your victory impossible, erase anyone who tried to kill me from existance, and cast quickened prestidigitation to summon victory tea.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-17, 10:12 AM
That still seems unlikely. They have +100 Spot and Listen and True Seeing and blindsight.
They also can cast Nondetection at will and one would almost certainly have that up at all times, which makes scrying them hard. I mean, you could make the DC but i think somehting as old and powerful as that would notice you scry and take steps to rectify the problem.


Also, for the record, you cant use Simulacrum on it either unless you found a way to raise your caster level well above your actual level. Although you could get a gibbering orb that way.

Prayer beads (+4 CL) Ioun Stone +1, Ring or Arcane Might +1, I now have 6 caster levels above 20, times 2 is 52 (as the maximum HD I can summon is 2x my CL).

Gibbering Orbs are 27 HD, I only need 14 CL to summon then.

The Spellcraft check is 52 for the Hecta, which I raised all the way there easily.



So far all of my spells "fizzled"



*Dimensional Lock Fizzles*

"Impressive... Did you come up with those spells all by yourself?"

// Ok... What next?

// EDIT: forgot to roll Solar's initiative: [27] http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2123809/


// Initiative after the surprise round.

*Disjunction fizzles - and a pair of Planetars appear!*

*seems a little irritated by this intrusion in his privacy*

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-17, 10:24 AM
http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/3074/bakurrach03.png


:(

Dacia Brabant
2009-06-17, 11:32 AM
Regarding your fake Hecatonchieres summoning a real one, um well the thing about those guys is they'll answer another one's summons since it means they'll be able to get a substantial favor out of it (which is why they're loathe to use that power).

Even assuming that the fake one can even do that since it probably needs to know of an actual Hecatonchieres to summon in the first place, if a real one answers it and sees that it's been fooled by your simulacrum into wasting its time (I mean how are you as a level 20 character going to provide worthwhile services to a CR 57 monster?), what's to keep it from carving you up like the proverbial Christmas goose? Keep in mind that the real one is not going to be under your control.


Oh and yeah it is weird that Elminster doesn't have Epic Spellcasting, considering he's basically Ed Greenwood's Mystra's avatar (does that make him Elmynstra?). But then he does have irremovable plot armor so that's good enough.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-17, 11:42 AM
Think of it this way, usually they never leave the plane they're in unless summoned.

They're Chaotic Evil.

It just got summoned to the Prime Material Plane.

"Nothing can stop us now!"

Like seriously its like a kid in the candy store it can burn and destory all life on the entire world now! It'll at least go after the only good guy in the room before decideding if the pesky wizard is worth eating or not. Heck its Mystra's Chosen it WANTS to kill Godlings it HATES the Gods and all things connected to them. The point isn't for it to remain under my control the point is for it to kill Elminster and then I run away and let someone else deal with it.

RAW (sp) Summon Hectatoncheires is a SLA it doesn't say if it HAS to know it.

quick_comment
2009-06-17, 11:47 AM
Bakurra: "Well that was worth a shot... Anti Magic Field! Dismiss Veil" \\AMF centered on Elminster but shaped to avoid me and my party members and the Solar.

Bzzt, stopped reading here. AMF's range is: Area: 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you

Barring a few wierd ability combinations (such as spellguard + master abjurer 10), you cannot cast an AMF centered on another target.

Also, dismissing a spell is a standard action. You cant do that and cast AMF in the same round.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-17, 11:49 AM
Due to Both Dimensional Lock and Timestop fizzling I don't cast AMF either way. also I'm pretty sure Arcane Reach + Shaping could move it to Elminster.

Anyways

Its a Energy Transformation Field!!!

Blast! He made a mistake (the DM) its not a Solar its a large Leonal and those Planetars arent supposed to be there.

Doc Roc
2009-06-17, 11:56 AM
Its a Energy Transformation Field!!!


Can't say I'm shocked. I tend to use those in my weezarding houses for "utility" purposes. Read as infinite spells.

Also, thatch roof? Lulz.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-17, 12:06 PM
Okay so my Disjunction does dispel it upon "being absorbed" so its gone now, I'll be redrawing the comic to reflect the changes.

Now does anyone know, Does HIS disjunction kill my Simulacrums?

quick_comment
2009-06-17, 12:24 PM
Okay so my Disjunction does dispel it upon "being absorbed" so its gone now, I'll be redrawing the comic to reflect the changes.

Now does anyone know, Does HIS disjunction kill my Simulacrums?

No, simulacrums are instantaneous spells.

And arcane reach says : The archmage can use spells with a range of touch on a target up to 30 feet away. The archmage must make a ranged touch attack. Arcane reach can be selected a second time as a special ability, in which case the range increases to 60 feet. This ability costs one 7th-level spell slot.

AMF does not have a range of touch. You cannot use arcane reach on it.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-17, 12:27 PM
No, simulacrums are instantaneous spells.

And arcane reach says : The archmage can use spells with a range of touch on a target up to 30 feet away. The archmage must make a ranged touch attack. Arcane reach can be selected a second time as a special ability, in which case the range increases to 60 feet. This ability costs one 7th-level spell slot.

AMF does not have a range of touch. You cannot use arcane reach on it.

Hmmpth, but I can still shape it around me though yes? As say a wall or a series of cubes? Or as a cone from me to him?

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-17, 12:54 PM
Updated strip.

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/3074/bakurrach03.png

quick_comment
2009-06-17, 01:01 PM
The archmage can alter area and effect spells that use one of the following shapes: burst, cone, cylinder, emanation, or spread. The alteration consists of creating spaces within the spell’s area or effect that are not subject to the spell. The minimum dimension for these spaces is a 5-foot cube. Furthermore, any shapeable spells have a minimum dimension of 5 feet instead of 10 feet. This ability costs one 6th-level spell slot.


And you spelt disjunction wrong.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-17, 03:41 PM
Assuming Turn order is: Gibbering Orb #1, Gibbering Orb #2, then Hecatoncheires Whom is Named Steve, Then my Familiar.

Gibbering Orb #1: Using its "ancient egyptian laser beams" (Abridged joke) uses Mage's Disjunction, followed by Energy Drain, then Energy Drain, then Power word Kill at the Leonal, then irresistible dance.

Followed by Mage's Disjunction on Elminster, followed by Energy Drain I will assume it uses them all at once and can't wait to see if the effect works or not so: followed by feeblemind, prismatic spray, irresistible dance.

I'll now await the results before Orb #2 moves.


Orb #1 makes it's move.

Stormthorn
2009-06-17, 03:44 PM
Prayer beads (+4 CL) Ioun Stone +1, Ring or Arcane Might +1, I now have 6 caster levels above 20, times 2 is 52 (as the maximum HD I can summon is 2x my CL).

Oh! I always thought that since you needed a divine spell to learn what they did you couldnt use them if you were an arcane caster.

I suggest you have Soul Bind ready so that you can prevent him form coming back from the dead and being angry. You wouldnt want an Elminster Ghost coming after you.

Why are your spell failing? Did you choose to fight in an antimagic field?I thought spells just automaticly worked unless some outside force (like armor) gave them a chance to fail.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-17, 03:53 PM
He had a Energy Transformation field (Magic of Faerun) which = Free Spells until I disjoined it, to think this would have been avoided had I opened up WITH Disjunction before wtf pwning.

SLA's can't be countered/turned right only absorbed?

I had Use magic device skill and then persisted the effect.

Arakune
2009-06-17, 05:39 PM
He had a Energy Transformation field (Magic of Faerun) which = Free Spells until I disjoined it, to think this would have been avoided had I opened up WITH Disjunction before wtf pwning.

SLA's can't be countered/turned right only absorbed?

I had Use magic device skill and then persisted the effect.

In a scry and die tactics if you really are interested in the "die" part instead of killing AND looting (reason why nobody uses disjunction) : dispell the hell out of him. If he had long term buffs, probably they are gone now.

Bayar
2009-06-17, 05:45 PM
In a scry and die tactics if you really are interested in the "die" part instead of killing AND looting (reason why nobody uses disjunction) : dispell the hell out of him. If he had long term buffs, probably they are gone now.

Elminster seriously needs to check out Persistent spell and Divine Metamagic. He has turn undead...

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-17, 05:50 PM
Strange, I thought thats what it could do, well at least I have it for later.

Orb #1 Rolls: Vs Leonals SR: http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2124502/ (28)

Orb #1 vs Elminster:

Energy Drain (I don't think it has Spell Resistance Yes)
Feeblemind 32
Prismatic Spray 17
Irrestible Dance 28


*Orb #1 spells fail to affect both Elminster and the Leonal*


Orb #2: I move it to Elminster and have it attempt to Swallow Whole.

I'm not sure how grabble works but assuming its 1d20

http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2124523/ (15) + its base grapple (+20/+39)

If for some reason I can still use my Eye rays (I'm assuming Moving + Shallow is a full turn)

Disjunction the Leonal
feeblemind the Leonal
disintegrate the Leonal (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2124527/ (7, dunno what stat adds onto it))
hold monster
temporal stasis.

http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2124531/ 28, 14, 27, 16 in order. None of them get past SR I think assuming I do but I don't think I get to make eye ray attacks this round.



Maybe the Shallow whole will work.

quick_comment
2009-06-17, 05:56 PM
I had Use magic device skill and then persisted the effect.

You can only persist spells, not any random effect.

Eldariel
2009-06-17, 06:15 PM
Elminster seriously needs to check out Persistent spell and Divine Metamagic. He has turn undead...

Yeah, but he doesn't have divine casting worth a **** so he doesn't have much to Persist. I mean, I guess he can Persist Protection from Evil and Conviction...

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-17, 06:18 PM
You can only persist spells, not any random effect.

The Dm didn't complain.

quick_comment
2009-06-17, 06:22 PM
The Dm didn't complain.

Your DM obviously does not know how the incantrix works then. He probably wouldnt bat an eye at you instant metamagicing a 9th level spell.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-17, 06:25 PM
What are my chances of grappling Elminster? I think I have like +39

quick_comment
2009-06-17, 06:33 PM
Zero, because can cast dimension door and/or freedom of movement.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-17, 06:35 PM
Zero, because can cast dimension door and/or freedom of movement.

On an opponents turn?



// Eh. +39 is for the true thing, not for the simulacrum. Spells did not work cause you triggered a contingency I placed for exactly such a situation. Anyway, stop me if I trigger something.

*Orb touches Elminster, rolls for grapple*

1d20 + 28 = 39
http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2124565/

*Elminster opposes the grapple - uses his own Moment Of Prescience*

1d20 + 14 + 25 = 56

http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2124571/

*Elminster breaks free*

// Elmister turn

*casts Mordenkainen's Disjunction on Barukka using Greater Metamagic Rod #2 (Quicken) - 2 daily uses left*

*Casts Maximized Time Stop using Greater Metamagic Rod #1 (Maximize) - 2 daily uses left*

*moves 9 meters away from the attackers*

// Time Stop - Round 1

*casts Elminster's Effulgent Epuration*

*activates Simbul's Spell Matrix as a free action speaking a command word - Displacement is cast*

// Time Stop - Round 2

*casts Sending from scroll, contacts the Simbul informing her that an Hecatoncheire is present in Shadowdale, requires immediate support*

// Time Stop - Round 3

*casts Twinned Delayed Blast Fireball (3 rounds of delay) in the middle of the attackers group using Greater Metamagic Rod #1 (Maximize) - 1 daily use left - changes the element to sonic*

// Time Stop - Round 4
*casts Forcecage, barred version to trap the hecatoncheire simulacrum*

// Time Stop - Round 5

*casts Twinned Evard's Black Tentacles centered on the hostile party using Greater Metamagic Rod #2 (Quicken) - 2 daily use left*

*puts his hand on another rod secured to his belt*

*readies an action*

// As soon as Time Stop ends

*Delayed Blast Fireballs detonate*

*Fireball #1 - SR check against Orb #1*
1d20 + 29 = 32 + 4 + 2 = 38 http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2124645/
*passed*
*Orb #1 tries to save: 1d20 +15 = 18 vs DC 32 failed - 120 sonic damage*
http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2124658/



*casts Chaos Maw centered on the hostile group*

// I'll end this tomorrow


Damn Moment of Prescience.

Anyways I use my own Contingency to Dimensional Door out of the way of Disjunction. Nothing I can do about time stop.

Dacia Brabant
2009-06-17, 06:53 PM
Even though I'd pay real money to see the Simbul eaten by a hundred-handed, fifty-headed, god-killing abomination, I just want to point out that Sending has a 10-minute casting time. Not that you guys aren't already tinkering with the rules but hey, it is what it is.

Raenir Salazar
2009-06-17, 06:54 PM
Even though I'd pay real money to see the Simbul eaten by a hundred-handed, fifty-headed, god-killing abomination, I just want to point out that Sending has a 10-minute casting time. Not that you guys aren't already tinkering with the rules but hey, it is what it is.

Even with a scroll?

Douglas
2009-06-17, 07:32 PM
According to the Rules Compendium, yes. If you're ignoring the Rules Compendium, then no.