I don't want to fight as a shade!

[herrhauptmann]

I'm idly considering my next character, and I want to make a whispergnome (ECL +0) rogue.
The thing is, I also want to make a shade (Template in FRCS). The book lists the template as a CR+2. But what is the Level adjustment as a player character? Also +2? Or possibly a +3?

And if it's a ECL +2, would I be able to take the 'Lesser' template (from whatever source it is) twice in order to make it an ECL+0 character, and therefore playable at level 1?

Yes, I'm partly making this in order to say, "This is how you play a rogue, there's a lot of dice rolling so stop whining! To a player in my campaign"

Am also contemplating entry into Assassin, Avenger (The april fools assassin) or Black Flame zealot (capstone ability is weak and prereqs sorta suck, but I still like the PrC.) If I take BFZ, I'll go archivist for my divine casting instead of Cleric, this will help reduce MAD: Dex for fighting, Int for skills, Death Attack, assassin casting, AND divine casting.
Instead of Dex for fighting, Int for skills+assassin stuff, Wis for Divine casting.

[Flickerdart]

The ECL would be whatever HD it comes with plus usually eyeballed LA for what a character of that level would be able to do. There is no such thing as a Lesser template and if there was you wouldn't be able to take it twice.

[herrhauptmann]

If there's no 'lesser' template, where are people getting these Lesser Tieflings and Aasimar with no Level adjustment from?

[Eldariel]

They're Lesser Planetouched. In Player's Guide to Faerun. All of them only have +1 LA so the trade of type for lack of LA sorta works out.

But Shade doesn't have a listed LA and thus isn't a playable template by RAW. However, its abilities are sharply limited by only working in darkness. They're pretty potent there, however. I'd say it's +2 LA; the limitations are enough to make up for all the good stuff. It's even on the limit of +1, but the abilities are a bit good for that.


I suggest an alternative though: "Dark"-creature from Tome of Magic. It's only +1 LA and gives you Hide in Plain Sight (Ex) as a bonus ability. Similar fluff, but more omnibeneficial as its abilities aren't on/off switches and it gains vast Hide/Move Silently bonuses.

And lower LA. Can't state that enough. More class levels and HD > special abilities much of the time.

[RTGoodman]

Lesser Aasimar and Lesser Tiefling are actual races statted out somewhere. (FGtF, maybe?) It's (surprise) a lesser version of the actual Aasimar or Tiefling race.

The Shade template in FRCS is from 3.0, meaning it was before the Level Adjustment rules were created and implemented. Thus, you can either (1) give up the idea since there's no actual LA and things without one (as opposed to LA +0) aren't playable, or (2) talk to your DM and see what LA he'd give it. Personally, I think it's probably around a LA +2.

Instead of that, you could also try either the Dark template or the Shadow template (don't remember where they're from, but I know one is in the Tome of Magic supplement), and they're each +1 LA, which you could easily Buy Off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingleveladjustments.htm) at level 3.

[shadzar]

Was ghostwalk 3.0 or 3.5? Shouldn't it have shade templates in it as well? Ben a while since I saw that one.

[Tengu_temp]

Yes, I'm partly making this in order to say, "This is how you play a rogue, there's a lot of dice rolling so stop whining! To a player in my campaign"


This part confuses me.

[RTGoodman]

Was ghostwalk 3.0 or 3.5? Shouldn't it have shade templates in it as well?

Completely different kind of Shade. You're thinking the Undead kind, but the ones in FRCS are Outsiders that have bound their souls with shadow-stuff or somesuch.


This part confuses me.

I think the player in question probably says, "I HATE playing this Rogue - it's boring and I never get to roll any dice and blah blah blah..."

[herrhauptmann]

Was ghostwalk 3.0 or 3.5? Shouldn't it have shade templates in it as well? Ben a while since I saw that one.

Ghostwalk was printed June 2003, so I think that's 3.25 like the MM2.

I've found Shadow creature in Manual of the Planes, DR 5/+1 says it's a 3.0 book to me.
Nothing appropriate seems to be Planar Handbook,

Ergo, it looks like a Dark Creature with LA buyoff from ToM for me. Thanks everyone.

[Jayabalard]

This part confuses me.sounds like the sort of behavior that would get a player kicked from many groups.

[herrhauptmann]

This part confuses me.

He's annoyed because when he's going down a long hallway I keep telling him to roll hide and move silently checks every 20-40 feet. Also he wants to combine the two rolls.

Or he keeps trying to misuse his Hide skill. Steps behind a big pillar in combat, *Hide skill!* Then steps back out into the open on his next turn and wonders why he gets targeted.

[RTGoodman]

I've found Shadow creature in Manual of the Planes, DR 5/+1 says it's a 3.0 book to me.

From the Manual of the Planes 3.5 Accessory Update (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a):


Shadow Creature: The shadow blend supernatural ability grants total concealment. Their optional supernatural abilities include +2 luck bonus on saves, 1/day cause fear as a 5th-level caster, damage reduction 5/magic, evasion (as the rogue class feature), 1/day mirror image as a 5th-level caster, 1/day plane shift as 15th-level caster (to or from Plane of Shadow only), fast healing 2. They have a level adjustment of +2.

As an aside, I'm totally for combining Hide and Move Silently into one skill (Stealth).

[yilduz]

As an aside, I'm totally for combining Hide and Move Silently into one skill (Stealth).

Yeah, being forced to use both skills every 20 feet makes them pretty pointless. If you're traveling a long corridor (let's say 100 feet) and you're making both skill checks every 20 feet, that's 10 skill checks. That means he really only has a 50% chance of not rolling a nat 1 at some point. Obviously, the odds of making it down the corridor undetected would be much less if he has to roll anything at least 3 or higher to make the skill check. Say he has to roll at least a 10, he'll never make it. For a character whose main focus is stealth, that can really screw a player. I can definitely understand why that would annoy him, it would make him pretty much useless.

[The Glyphstone]

The updated version is is Lords of Madness.

[AbyssKnight]

Races of Faerun has the Shade template as LA +4.

Shadow Walker from Unapproachable East is LA +1.
Shadow from Lords of Madness is LA +2.

[kjones]

Yeah, being forced to use both skills every 20 feet makes them pretty pointless. If you're traveling a long corridor (let's say 100 feet) and you're making both skill checks every 20 feet, that's 10 skill checks. That means he really only has a 50% chance of not rolling a nat 1 at some point. Obviously, the odds of making it down the corridor undetected would be much less if he has to roll anything at least 3 or higher to make the skill check. Say he has to roll at least a 10, he'll never make it. For a character whose main focus is stealth, that can really screw a player. I can definitely understand why that would annoy him, it would make him pretty much useless.

Take 10 for fun and profit.

[herrhauptmann]

Thank you everyone for your help.
Having looked at the suggestions, I'm gonna choose either 'Dark creature' or the LoM shadow

[ghost_warlock]

Yeah, being forced to use both skills every 20 feet makes them pretty pointless. If you're traveling a long corridor (let's say 100 feet) and you're making both skill checks every 20 feet, that's 10 skill checks. That means he really only has a 50% chance of not rolling a nat 1 at some point. Obviously, the odds of making it down the corridor undetected would be much less if he has to roll anything at least 3 or higher to make the skill check. Say he has to roll at least a 10, he'll never make it. For a character whose main focus is stealth, that can really screw a player. I can definitely understand why that would annoy him, it would make him pretty much useless.


Unlike with attack rolls and saving throws, a natural roll of 20 on the d20 is not an automatic success, and a natural roll of 1 is not an automatic failure.
Granted, if he isn't stacking modifiers, a natural 1 would still suck pretty hard...

[The Glyphstone]

Just make sure you don't let their Arrowhawks block out the sun.:smallbiggrin:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The +4 LA on Shade is a bit too steep for it to make a viable PC, especially considering your other +4 LA options (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a). Shadow Creature in Lords of Madness or Manual of the Planes has only a +2 LA and is nearly as strong. If you can buy off your LA (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) a +2 LA can be completely bought off by your 9th character level, whereas for a +4 LA you could only reduce it by one point prior to the epic levels, and cannot completely buy it off until level 30.

If you want to combine spellcasting with sneak attack, consider either Rogue 4/ Wizard 1/ Assassin 5/ Arcane Trickster 10, applying AT spellcasting to Wizard. Consider throwing in at least one level of Spellthief with the feat Master Spellthief to have a caster level at least equal to your character level with Practiced Spellcaster, plus you'd get to cast Wizard spells in light armor. You'll get 10d6 Sneak Attack, 5th level Assassin spellcasting, and 11th level Wizard spellcasting. You could also replace Wizard with Warlock, since Whisper Gnomes get Mage Hand as a racial spell-like ability. That would get a 6d6 Eldritch Blast (8d6 with items) plus 10d6 Sneak Attack, which with Eldritch Chain can hit multiple opponents at once even on a Flyby Attack, and don't forget Quicken Spell-Like Ability. All of that is without sacrificing your focus as a skillful character, as just a few levels will have fewer skill points.

[yilduz]

Granted, if he isn't stacking modifiers, a natural 1 would still suck pretty hard...

Well, yes, that's what the SRD says, but I've never played with a DM that didn't have a house rule saying nat 1 always fails.