So, after all that's happened, it wasn't a total failure

[Silverraptor]

V may have charged in stupidly and failed the intial goal, but look at the outcome.

1) O-chul is free

2) Xykon's phylactery is gone

3) The Hob-Goblins will have to deal with a blind with rage Xykon.

So, I guess we can say that when we ordered chocolate milk, we just got plain milk. Not exactly what we wanted, but close enough. Am I right?:smallamused:

[[TS] Shadow]

Yeah, but we also have lost our way of teleporting straight to Girard's gate. But I guess you're right, we didn't screw up too badly.

[Ridureyu]

Well, at least we didn't get carob milk.

[Silverraptor]

Well, at least we didn't get carob milk.

That's the spirit!:smallbiggrin:

[[TS] Shadow]

Well, at least we didn't get carob milk.

Or whatever that green stuff is that the serve at our school...

[Red XIV]

Shadow;6263620']Yeah, but we also have lost our way of teleporting straight to Girard's gate.
Which just means they'll have to walk. Like they always do.
If MitD sent O-Chul and V to where the Order and the Sapphire Guard are, then everybody will be on the right side of the world to find Girard's Gate.

[holywhippet]

I'm guessing Xykon can scry though. Odds are he'll be looking for those two pretty quickly. Of course, while he can teleport it's unknown if he can greater teleport. If not, he might not be able to reach them.

[nysisobli]

So, I guess we can say that when we ordered chocolate milk, we just got plain milk. Not exactly what we wanted, but close enough. Am I right?:smallamused:

My gods sir if anyone ever brought me regular milk at a restaurant and i ordered chocolate milk, i would do everything in my being not to smash the life and warm goo out of their body, my rage would be undeniable......

[archon_huskie]

O'Chul may have a mount. Though I wonder if he might be 13 levels fighter and one level paladin.

They could use V's horse until V is reminded that her horse was left back at the inn again.

Or once V has had a chance to refresh his spells . . . Oh man his spellbooks are still back on that island!

[Wolfwood2]

Which just means they'll have to walk. Like they always do.

Wind Walk is the best spell ever!

[Silverraptor]

My gods sir if anyone ever brought me regular milk at a restaurant and i ordered chocolate milk, i would do everything in my being not to smash the life and warm goo out of their body, my rage would be undeniable......

That's why the sign says, "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service". Sorry.:smallamused:

[Optimystik]

Shadow;6263620']Yeah, but we also have lost our way of teleporting straight to Girard's gate. But I guess you're right, we didn't screw up too badly.

Think of it this way - had their "taxi" waited around for the party to reunite, he would owe the fiends another half-hour of service. And you can bet whatever they have planned for him will dramatically run out of time right when they are about to culminate their vile scheme for planar domination, so missing that half hour will be a good thing!

[Dr. Cthulwho]

V may have charged in stupidly and failed the intial goal, but look at the outcome.

1) O-chul is free

2) Xykon's phylactery is gone

3) The Hob-Goblins will have to deal with a blind with rage Xykon.

So, I guess we can say that when we ordered chocolate milk, we just got plain milk. Not exactly what we wanted, but close enough. Am I right?:smallamused:

Plus gave the opening for O-Chul to scare Redcloak away, leaving Xykon without his guidance for now. And maybe something important happened to Blackwing.

So I'd say we may have expected chocolate milk we got strawberry, which some might say is just as good.

[Optimystik]

So I'd say we may have expected chocolate milk we got strawberry, which some might say is just as good.

I'll hold off on the strawberry until I see (a) where Mutt and Jeff ended up, (b) where REDCLOAK ended up, (c) what happened to Blackwing, and (d) whether the MitD might be on the hook for their escape (although he's probably the only thing there that can withstand Xykon's rage.)

In other words, outcome was favorable but we're not out of the woods yet.

[DSCrankshaw]

Shadow;6263620']Yeah, but we also have lost our way of teleporting straight to Girard's gate. But I guess you're right, we didn't screw up too badly.
Which was pretty much why it had to happen. And why V has that school barred in the first place. Teleportation to wherever you want to go ruins a lot of the travel inherent in a quest like this. It makes a better story if you get rid of it.

[Optimystik]

Which was pretty much why it had to happen. And why V has that school barred in the first place. Teleportation to wherever you want to go ruins a lot of the travel inherent in a quest like this. It makes a better story if you get rid of it.

Travel isn't (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html) always (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html) important. :smallwink:

[shadzar]

Monster-san has a reason for leaving Xykon.

The prisoners when they learn of O'Chul's escape will have more faith and attempt their own helping the other Azurites in the resistance.

The resistance will have more chance at guerrilla tactics with everyone searching for the phylactery.

All hell just broke lose in Azure City.

I don't see anything as failed, except for actually destroying the phylactery.

[PId6]

I don't see anything as failed, except for actually destroying the phylactery.
And, ya know, destroying Xykon. :smallwink:

[JonestheSpy]

Let's not also forget saving V's family and getting all the Azure City refugees to a safe haven.

So, there were some yummy cookies even before the chocolate milk was ordered.

[shadzar]

And, ya know, destroying Xykon. :smallwink:

Well my version of liches would have both happen when the phylactery is destroyed, and only destroying the lich without doing so to the phylactery just means 1d10 days without the lich in question. :smallbiggrin:

But it depends on which angle we look from, O'Chul or V's.

Did V even know about the phylactery....this time? :smallconfused:

[Silverraptor]

Wow. So many people are using my milk metaphors.:smallbiggrin:

[elliott20]

man, screw you guys! I'm lactose-intolerant!!!

[shadzar]

man, screw you guys! I'm lactose-intolerant!!!

Soy Milk! :smallbiggrin:


:smallconfused: How do you milk a soy bean? Does it have teats?

[RMS Oceanic]

That's okay, we have Chocolate Soya Milk too!

Yeah, V's foray into Azure City hasn't resolved any plot points, but instead set several up, which will undoubtedly play into the climax of the story:

- The lost phylactery
- Redcloak's ironic injury, and possibly the inability to cast spells
- MitD's hidden power, and his beginning to question his situation
- Hell hath no fury like a Sorceror scorned, i.e. How Xykon will now act from now to the end could very well be quite different.

[warrl]

Soy Milk! :smallbiggrin:
No esta milk!

[EyethatBinds]

- Redcloak's ironic injury, and possibly the inability to cast spells


Nevermind the fact that Word of Recall is a spell and that a holy symbol costs a gold. Redcloak would have to be a fool not to pick up another for the few spells that require it. And that is if he doesn't already have one.

[shadzar]

I got another new thing also. Those poor hobgoblins erecting a statue of Redcloak* (they can't have made it so soon after Jirix died), and now they will have to do something about the fact it has both eyes while he does not. :smallbiggrin:

I wonder how the gobo armies will fair without any of their leaders. Will they still follow Xykon, or all be turned into undead? :smallconfused:

*Has to be Redcloak since the phylactery hit it in the right eye and bounced off it. :smallwink:

[elliott20]

Soy Milk! :smallbiggrin:

*gets his milk*

hey, wait a sec, this is not soy milk! this is 2%! what are you trying to do, kill me?!?

*stabs out waiter's eye*

[shadzar]

*gets his milk*

hey, wait a sec, this is not soy milk! this is 2%! what are you trying to do, kill me?!?

*stabs out waiter's eye*

:smalleek: Fine try some Soy-lent Milk then. :smallwink:

Ok have we milked this enough yet?

[daggaz]

No esta leché!

There, fixed that for ya...

[[TS] Shadow]

I'll hold off on the strawberry until I see (a) where Mutt and Jeff ended up, (b) where REDCLOAK ended up, (c) what happened to Blackwing, and (d) whether the MitD might be on the hook for their escape (although he's probably the only thing there that can withstand Xykon's rage.)

In other words, outcome was favorable but we're not out of the woods yet.

Blackwing "popped" away after the soul-hidey thing fell. He'll be there to be called upon whenever he's needed.

[Optimystik]

Shadow;6266677']Blackwing "popped" away after the soul-hidey thing fell. He'll be there to be called upon whenever he's needed.

I meant with the whole "so beautiful" and pink eyes thing he went through after staring into the rift.

[Custos Sophiae]

Xykon now has a strong reason to stay in Azure City, but the plot is heading for Gerard's Gate.

Either a/ a quick fix reunites X and his phylactery,
b/ OotS do side-quests for a few months while X gets his phylactery back,
c/ something unexpected happens to force X out of Azure City, to the next gate, leaving his phylactery behind.

Option a would be difficult to pull off satisfactorily. Option b risks feeling like dragging the story out, but does give time for OotS to pick up more levels, and make other preparations (who knows? After their learning experience, V might even consider multi-classing). Option c makes the phylactery a plot hook for a later story arc, such as our heroes going into that labyrinth to get it.

However, both the last two options seem to push the end of the story further away. While I don't want it to end soon, the end should really be coming closer.

[Optimystik]

Why would he stay in Azure City while his soul-box is being swept out to sea? :smallconfused:

[RMS Oceanic]

Why would he stay in Azure City while his soul-box is being swept out to sea? :smallconfused:

We don't know where it's being swept to. Just because it landed closest to the Ocean Drain, doesn't mean it couldn't drift to the other vast-and-time-consuming-to-search areas.

[Custos Sophiae]

We don't know where it's being swept to.

And Xykon doesn't even know it landed in the sewers. He could easily spend weeks searching the whole city before discovering that he's been looking in completely the wrong place. While some of the hobgoblins did see it fall, they don't know what they saw and X doesn't know which hobgoblins they are. To follow that lead, he'd have to spend time interrogating his entire army in the hope that someone saw something useful.

X will not be finding his phylactery any time soon, unless he gets lucky. Since Azure City is the last place he saw it, he's going to be reluctant to leave while it's still missing.

[warrl]

There, broke that for ya...

Fixed that for you. Now put the multilingual pun back.

[Teln]

Xykon now has a strong reason to stay in Azure City, but the plot is heading for Gerard's Gate.

Either a/ a quick fix reunites X and his phylactery,
b/ OotS do side-quests for a few months while X gets his phylactery back,
c/ something unexpected happens to force X out of Azure City, to the next gate, leaving his phylactery behind.

Option a would be difficult to pull off satisfactorily. Option b risks feeling like dragging the story out, but does give time for OotS to pick up more levels, and make other preparations (who knows? After their learning experience, V might even consider multi-classing). Option c makes the phylactery a plot hook for a later story arc, such as our heroes going into that labyrinth to get it.


My theory?

The villains of the next story arc? None other than the Linear Guild. They're about due for another appearance.

[Optimystik]

We don't know where it's being swept to. Just because it landed closest to the Ocean Drain, doesn't mean it couldn't drift to the other vast-and-time-consuming-to-search areas.

All the more reason for Xykon to leave; he's got a city full of orange mooks to comb the waterways for his missing bauble, but out in the wider world he has nobody to count on but himself to locate it.

[Zanaril]

Or once V has had a chance to refresh his spells . . . Oh man his spellbooks are still back on that island!

I pointed this out ages ago. Unless V specifically mentions she left her spellbooks behind, I think we can asume that they're currently stored in hammerspace. If not then V is going to have some major problems (although it could provide some more character development as V and O-chul try to find their way back to the OOTS without magic).

[Faramir]

another possibility regarding the phylactery:

if the fiends switched their tv viewing to follow the phylactery instead of V they know where it is and can send the imp for it the next day

Not saying it's likely, but it would be an interesting twist.

[Shatteredtower]

I'll hold off on the strawberry until I see (a) where Mutt and Jeff ended up, (b) where REDCLOAK ended up...

Stay tuned for Game OVeR, the story of an elf, a human, and a hobgoblin trapped on a desert island, and the wacky hijinks that ensue. On tonight's episode, Redcloak takes up jogging.


...(c) what happened to Blackwing...

I'm wondering if it might be something plot helpful. Not saying this will happen, but:

--imagine if the encounter with the Snarl have left Blackwing the ability to sense the location of the other rifts.

Might make things too easy, or it might keep them from bordering on the impossible. Hardly necessary, but it would be one way to make that moment a little bit more plot relevant -- not that it needs to be.


man, screw you guys! I'm lactose-intolerant!!!

Then what were you doing ordering chocolate milk in the first place?

[Zanaril]

Stay tuned for Game OVeR, the story of an elf, a human, and a hobgoblin trapped on a desert island, and the wacky hijinks that ensue. On tonight's episode, Redcloak takes up jogging.


That reminds me of some of the stuff that spawned from the crack pairings thread. Whatever happened to it?

[Cestrian]

My theory?

The villains of the next story arc? None other than the Linear Guild. They're about due for another appearance.

Yeah, I've wondered myself if Xykon isn't going to arrive at Girard's gate only after it's been destroyed in a fight between the Order and the Linear Guild. Especially since Sabine is working for the IFCC. It would allow V's arc to come to a conclusion before the big showdown with Xykon.

[Prak]

Let's not also forget saving V's family and getting all the Azure City refugees to a safe haven.

So, there were some yummy cookies even before the chocolate milk was ordered.

I'd say it's more like we ordered steak and a good stiff drink, and got cookies and chocolate milk.

It's not even close to what we ordered, but it's still good.


*gets his milk*

hey, wait a sec, this is not soy milk! this is 2%! what are you trying to do, kill me?!?

*stabs out waiter's eye*
"What's this!? Rat #@$$!? *stab stab stab*"

[Zanaril]

I'd say it's more like we ordered steak and a good stiff drink, and got cookies and chocolate milk.

No, it's like we stood in line for a free meal, were hoping for steak and a good stiff drink, and got cookies and chocolate milk.

[Prak]

No, it's like we stood in line for a free meal, were hoping for steak and a good stiff drink, and got cookies and chocolate milk.

ok, yeah. that works.

[Shatteredtower]

Yeah, I've wondered myself if Xykon isn't going to arrive at Girard's gate only after it's been destroyed in a fight between the Order and the Linear Guild. Especially since Sabine is working for the IFCC. It would allow V's arc to come to a conclusion before the big showdown with Xykon.

... Huh. You know, you've just offered a theory that allows most of the OotS members to resolve significant personal subplots? It's a stretch, but it could be made to fit everyone but Roy. (Not saying it is, though.) To elaborate:

Elan: Well, we are talking about something that would make for an appropriate final showdown with his brother. If we get a parallel with the reason for his showdown with another "evil mastermind", Lord Kubota, the "final" part could be even more likely. Also, if Elan's father is Lord Tyrinar, we've got a bonus connection.
Haley: I realize that the Western Continent is a very big place, but it just seems wrong to put Girard's Gate too far out of the way from the place her father is being held.
Vaarsuvius: owes a favour to a collection of fiends that have an interest in the gates.
Belkar: is facing some sort of doom within the next year. I'd rather he was around for the final gate, but this would still be an appropriate place to lose him.
Durkon: The dwarf calls for the biggest stretch of all of them, but it comes down to the fact that he'd spurned a former member of Nale's group who now has a more personal motive to work with that team against the Order. Again, this might be better tied to the final gate, assuming that we ever see Hilgya again, but it would conveniently tie in to two prophecies that would be well-suited to the fate of any cleric of Thor that had crossed a cleric of Loki:

a) that he would return home posthumously; and (OtOoPCs spoiler)
b) that he'd bring death and destruction to the dwarves when next he returned home

Then again, that might be asking a bit much of one event.

[The Dark Fiddler]

That reminds me of some of the stuff that spawned from the crack pairings thread. Whatever happened to it?

It died, sadly.

I could try to dig it up if you want it. I made it, so it should be somewhere in my account's logs.

[Zanaril]

Such threads should have never been created in the first place...


...but it's too late for that, so why not! It'll be great to have back, although we'd need to get more people adding stuff to it.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Well, here is it. Have fun. (And let's get back on topic now). (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111631)

[Zanaril]

*glee!*

Back on topic:

V's little power surge has certainly had some positive results. While they may not have been seen as much by V at the time, teleporting the fleet, reunting the Order (almost), losing the phylactery and saving hir family from a horrible fate are major achievements.

[Cestrian]

... Huh. You know, you've just offered a theory that allows most of the OotS members to resolve significant personal subplots? It's a stretch, but it could be made to fit everyone but Roy. (Not saying it is, though.) To elaborate:

Elan: Well, we are talking about something that would make for an appropriate final showdown with his brother. If we get a parallel with the reason for his showdown with another "evil mastermind", Lord Kubota, the "final" part could be even more likely. Also, if Elan's father is Lord Tyrinar, we've got a bonus connection.
Haley: I realize that the Western Continent is a very big place, but it just seems wrong to put Girard's Gate too far out of the way from the place her father is being held.
Vaarsuvius: owes a favour to a collection of fiends that have an interest in the gates.
Belkar: is facing some sort of doom within the next year. I'd rather he was around for the final gate, but this would still be an appropriate place to lose him.
Durkon: The dwarf calls for the biggest stretch of all of them, but it comes down to the fact that he'd spurned a former member of Nale's group who now has a more personal motive to work with that team against the Order. Again, this might be better tied to the final gate, assuming that we ever see Hilgya again, but it would conveniently tie in to two prophecies that would be well-suited to the fate of any cleric of Thor that had crossed a cleric of Loki:

a) that he would return home posthumously; and (OtOoPCs spoiler)
b) that he'd bring death and destruction to the dwarves when next he returned home

Then again, that might be asking a bit much of one event.

Not that I disagree with any of what you say, I would be very pleased if you were right, but none of that is dependant on my theory. It could all happen even if I'm wrong.

My theory is that the Order won't encounter Xykon at the next gate because he'll arrive there too late and that battle will only happen at the final gate.

And, while it makes sense that most of the subplots will be wrapped up before the final battle, that can still happen if there's two fights with Xykon.

I mean we're assuming that all the minor bad guys (Nale, the IFCC, Lord Tyrinar, Hilgya) will be fought in a seperate fight to the one with the main bad guys but it could equally be a giant cluster*** of a battle where everyone is involved and only the survivors (Xykon's gang and the Order) make it to the last gate.

I just think another inconclusive fight with Xykon which ends with a gate's destruction might be a bit repetitive.

[abishur]

V may have charged in stupidly and failed the intial goal, but look at the outcome.

1) O-chul is free

2) Xykon's phylactery is gone

3) The Hob-Goblins will have to deal with a blind with rage Xykon.

So, I guess we can say that when we ordered chocolate milk, we just got plain milk. Not exactly what we wanted, but close enough. Am I right?:smallamused:

No, I think a lot more than just that happened. Well, okay, on the surface that's exactly what happened, but consider the long reaching effects of what this little sequence achieved.

1) Xy is pissed. He is, in fact, more mad right now than when Roy "killed" him. Heck, he's more mad now then when he was getting his butt kicked all over the tower in Azure City.

SoD spoiler:

In fact, I'd say that right now, he's more pissed then when he lost his sense of taste at the end of the SoD and almost killed Right-eye and Redcloak


That's not something that just disappears, that's something that changes Xy from a bumbling evil guy, to a full fledge evil villain (what and he wasn't when he waged war against Azure city? Well, no. It's the difference between passive boredom motivating you to commit atrocities, and actively killing everything in sight)

2) V has undergone a major change in herself. She's come to learn how ultimate arcane power isn't the ultimate answer to everything. More than that, she's just had her marriage shaken to its foundation


Which is why I suspect that MitD's spell was such that He didn't choose where they went, but simply sent them to where they knew they would be safe. If they stay together, I wouldn't be surprised to see them back at V's house or with the party (or just outside the city for that matter). I wonder if we'll spends another 40 strips with the group separated and V and O-Chul traveling together?:smalltongue:


That in itself makes this story line relevant. If it had stopped with the Dragon what do you walk away with at the end? V was justified in being a jerk to Elan and Durkon because magic is the end all solution to everything. That a single person with enough power can do whatever they please. But by letting the Xy fight happen, V was forced to face her guilt of abandoning the soldiers (guilt that she obviously felt regardless of the validity of the retreat) and grow as an individual. That alone makes the fight worth while.

3) V going there in the first place was pointless. We all knew that V could not win against Xy on her own. But Rich took a pointless battle that would have ultimately ended in V's death and laid the foundation for several EXTREMELY important plot points:


Xy phylactery (and in the end, whether or not defeating him has any importance what-so-ever)

Redcloak's separation. It's the first time in years that RC hasn't been constantly with Xy and since the cloister spell is still in affect, they cannot contact one another. So if RC is hurt bad and all alone, he's gonna have to heal the old fashion way.

Redcloak's loss of his holy symbol. Based on what O-Chul says here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0655.html) it means that RC has lost his ability to cast magic (someone who knows the rules help me out, can he get another one?)

MitD (maybe?) starting to display power and (definitely) displaying some thoughts of his own.

And last but not least. They have completely disrupted the top level of leadership of Team Evil. Before they were just waiting for the moment to go to the next gate. But now, they have to devote major man hours to finding the phylactery (something that may ultimately be impossible), find RC, and get a new third in command. That last one may seem minor, but I imagine finding a competent mid-level lieutenant amidst Xy having to directly control his army (something that RC has been in complete control of so far) will result in no small amount of anarchy.

Finally, in the midst of the above happenings, if Xy leaves Azure City for any reason, it would most likely result in the immediate downfall of the (confused and disordered) troops stationed there at the hands of the resistance.


So yeah, on the surface, not a whole lot of importance, but when you consider the larger ripples that those tiny actions result in... we got some MAJOR happening going down.

Also here's a theory for the phylactery


Two theories actually

1) It's carried out to the ocean where either the current allow it to pass within 1000 ft of G's gate or someone picks it up and walks within 1000 ft of G's gate (I know Xy's soul isn't in it right now, but maybe it counted enough for the oracle anyway)

2) The above happens and/or while searching for the phylactery they stumble upon the resistance. If Xy's gone searching for RC (who is under the protection of the cloister spell still) this could mean pushing the resistance's hand to victory, or if Xy is still around, it could mean their crushing defeat.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Redcloak's loss of his holy symbol. Based on what O-Chul says here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0655.html) it means that RC has lost his ability to cast magic (someone who knows the rules help me out, can he get another one?)


Redcloak can get another holy symbol, or a dozen of them, at 1 gold piece each. Without his holy symbol, he can still cast the massive amounts of spells without the Divine Focus component - such as Cure Light Wounds, for example. I figure he just panicked when he lost his eye, since he still had a lot of spells he could have cast.

[abishur]

Redcloak can get another holy symbol, or a dozen of them, at 1 gold piece each. Without his holy symbol, he can still cast the massive amounts of spells without the Divine Focus component - such as Cure Light Wounds, for example. I figure he just panicked when he lost his eye, since he still had a lot of spells he could have cast.

Thanks for the clarification! :smallbiggrin:

So ignore my third little plot relevant point, the only way RC being alone could possibly be significant would be if he passed out after the transport due to wounds suffered, or if he didn't have any more heal spells.

The second of which I consider VERY unlikely, but not impossible. It could be that RC only had harm spells to heal Xy and relied on potions or magic from his underlings to heal himself. But the is RC we're talking about, so I don't consider that very possible.

[Zolem]

Wait, why do they need a new Third in Command? The thamugiste skank is still around.

[abishur]

Wait, why do they need a new Third in Command? The thamugiste skank is still around.

Ah pardon, you are correct, I should have been more specific. I meant a third in command over the Hobbos. It has appeared thus far that RC is #1 among the hobbos (ever since "defeating" the last supreme leader), but I listed him as #2 since he still (largely) submits to Xy. Ergo, they needed a new third in command so far as the hobbo troops are concerned.

[factotum]

All the more reason for Xykon to leave; he's got a city full of orange mooks to comb the waterways for his missing bauble, but out in the wider world he has nobody to count on but himself to locate it.

Actually, Redcloak is the one who has the city full of orange mooks. We have no idea how they would react to Xykon giving them orders with Redcloak and Jirix out of the picture.

[Zolem]

Actually, Redcloak is the one who has the city full of orange mooks. We have no idea how they would react to Xykon giving them orders with Redcloak and Jirix out of the picture.

Jirix, THATS who he was refering to as the #3, I was thinking of him more as a #4.

[Silverraptor]

Actually, Redcloak is the one who has the city full of orange mooks. We have no idea how they would react to Xykon giving them orders with Redcloak and Jirix out of the picture.

Well lets see. All the hob-goblins take orders from Redcloak. And Redcloak takes orders from Xykon. Doesn't that mean that technically they're Xykon's minions. (Yes, sarcasm.)

[Dork Lord]

Well lets see. All the hob-goblins take orders from Redcloak. And Redcloak takes orders from Xykon. Doesn't that mean that technically they're Xykon's minions. (Yes, sarcasm.)

It depends. If Xykon and Redcloak became enemies, who would the Hobgoblins side with?

EDIT: Totally missed your sarcasm. It had Greater Invisibility cast on it! Yeah, that's it... >.>

[Silverraptor]

It depends. If Xykon and Redcloak became enemies, who would the Hobgoblins side with?

What motives do they have at the moment that could make them enemies?

[Dork Lord]

Well I get the impression that Redcloak really doesn't like Xykon very much. The moment he's no longer useful to him and he actually feels he could take him out, I think he would. Then again, I haven't read their history in SoD either, so I'm basing it solely on the site's strips.

[abishur]

What motives do they have at the moment that could make them enemies?

Go read SoD or this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html)

[Phage0070]

...and now they will have to do something about the fact it has both eyes while he does not. :smallbiggrin:

It won't be gone for long, Redcloak can cast Regenerate once he gets his hands on a new symbol (which he should really have in his back pocket, if he isn't a total noob). 2 minutes later max he has a new eye.

[Silverraptor]

I have read start of darkness and that comic just shows that Redcloak doen't trust Xykon but knows he's still useful. That doesn't look like betray level yet, to me anyways.

[Kaytara]

I don't think Xykon would have a huge problem with commanding the hobbos for a time - they know him as a strong ally of the Supreme Leader and someone powerful who helped them take over the city, after all. And Redcloak actually needed to remind Jirix that Xykon was not really on their side... this does not suggest enmity between Xykon and the hobgoblins in general.

[Dagren]

EDIT: Totally missed your sarcasm. It had Greater Invisibility cast on it! Yeah, that's it... >.>A 50% miss chance sucks, doesn't it?

As for the question, I don't see it as relevant that :wink: isn't at the point of betraying :xykon: yet, it's just a hypothetical question: If Redcloak betrayed Xykon, who would the army side with? If Redcloak, they aren't really Xykon's minions, are they? At best, they would be his minions by proxy.

[abishur]

I have read start of darkness and that comic just shows that Redcloak doen't trust Xykon but knows he's still useful. That doesn't look like betray level yet, to me anyways.

oh, agreed, it's not betrayal yet, but it is the seeds of dissension. I point it out merely to emphasize the point that when every gets pissed at RC "out of the blue" betrayal to Xy, that it wasn't out of the blue and RC has a long history of distrust (and dislike even) of Xy.


yet, it's just a hypothetical question: If Redcloak betrayed Xykon, who would the army side with? If Redcloak, they aren't really Xykon's minions, are they? At best, they would be his minions by proxy.

I gotta back of Dagren here, all interaction proves that RC is the one calling the shots. Besides it's well established that RC (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0149.html) is their (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0190.html), supreme leader (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0660.html) not Xy. I don't they'd obey Xy without RC around, it just wouldn't be as smooth as it is for RC. And, if sides were drawn, I think it's be made rather plain that the hobbos would side with RC

[Kaytara]

Regarding the main topic, I'd even go so far as to say that it wasn't a failure at all. Oh, sure, V failed in what he had originally set out to do, but if we actually count the losses....

Team Evil's losses:
- Supreme Leader MIA, no quick way to get back
- Supreme Leader's second-in-command dead
---> Leadership disrupted, at a time when the Resistance and the slaves are ready to act
- Xykon's phylactery lost to the sewers
- A valuable (and amusing) prisoner
- The MitD's unquestioning obedience
- Xykon's composure
- The top of the evil tower smashed to pieces

Team Good's losses:
- V's power boost (which he would have lost anyway, eventually) and with it, the ability to go directly to Girard's Gate
- (Whatever time it takes to reunite V with the party if he's been teleported somewhere else)

And that's... all, as far as I can tell. V and O-Chul may be in the single digits of their hitpoints, but their lame mid-level antics caused a lot of damage to Team Evil and little damage to them. Even combat-wise it was rather close, because in the end Xykon was at the point where another Explosive Runes or Magic Missile might have killed him, which likely also reinforced his decision to SNUFF THEM NOW.