Phylactery Abjurations: A boneheaded mistake?

[Iranon]

Why would Xykon use high-powered spells to ward it from scrying? It's not as if that does much good, since he keeps it very close to him anyway... that kind of protection would make more sense if he kept it hidden in an unexpected place. At least after the throne room fiasco, he needs to assume that many people after him will know what his phylactery is.

If someone overpowers Redcloak - the most likely event of endangering it - Xykon will be left in the dark and can't retrieve it easily. A determined foe could simply neutralise it by, say, tossing it into the positive energy plane.

[Callista]

Yeah. If I were putting abjurations on my phylactery (not that I have one)... I'd be sure to leave myself a back door. You don't design a security system you can't get through yourself, especially if you happen to be an epic-level lich with one phylactery-shaped weakness and lots of people who want to turn you from undead into plain dead.

Xykon tends to be pretty sure he can't be defeated, though. I don't know he has the Wisdom score to plan for contingencies like his phylactery being lost or stolen, and he just depends on himself and Redcloak to be good enough at protecting it for it to be actually destroyed. He's not too far wrong; Xykon may be the most powerful creature in his world, for all we know; but he's also been too cocky to realize just how close he can come to being defeated. With this incident, that may change.

[holywhippet]

Because even a high level cleric like Redcloak needs to sleep sometimes. If someone scried out his phylactory they could take out Redcloak while he was sleeping and steal it. A phylactory is a liches last line of defence against being completely dead. Making it hard to find is a really good idea.

[Callista]

There are lots of spells that leave holes for the spellcaster. Xykon is sensible to put a lot of protections on the phylactery, but stupid not to leave security holes for himself.

[Optimystik]

"Boneheaded?"

http://www.tmonews.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/i-see-what-you-did-there.jpg

[Foryn Gilnith]

Because even a high level cleric like Redcloak needs to sleep sometimes. If someone scried out his phylactory they could take out Redcloak while he was sleeping and steal it..

QFT. IMO, Redcloak didn't want to show up if some epic-level idiot that wants to take on Xykon decides to scry the phylactery. He'd be too much of a target. So he suckers Xykon into putting up some competent scry resistance so he won't be dragged too much into Xykon's fights.

[yanmaodao]

Well, even if Xykon and Redcloak could win all the teleport attacks that would ensue if the phylactery was scry-able, they'd be annoying, distracting, and time consuming.

Is there some sort of homing device that could tell Xykon where the phylactery was? And er... if so, could that device be scried and/or teleported?

I think abjuring it up the wazoo was the best thing to do, all things considered.

[Random832]

Well, even if Xykon and Redcloak could win all the teleport attacks that would ensue if the phylactery was scry-able, they'd be annoying, distracting, and time consuming.

Is there some sort of homing device that could tell Xykon where the phylactery was? And er... if so, could that device be scried and/or teleported?

I think abjuring it up the wazoo was the best thing to do, all things considered.

Why not have a protection from scrying on Redcloak, so that it protects the phylactery as long as it's with him, but if it gets separated from him they can find it.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

Why would Xykon use high-powered spells to ward it from scrying? It's not as if that does much good, since he keeps it very close to him anyway... that kind of protection would make more sense if he kept it hidden in an unexpected place. At least after the throne room fiasco, he needs to assume that many people after him will know what his phylactery is.

I guess he thinks people would think his phylactery was hidden in an unexpected place. He doesn't want them trying to scry it out only to go "Well hey, it's actually that holy symbol that Goblin that always follows him around wears.".

Plus Soon is a special case clearly - Xykon didn't expect him to know and was surprised he did. No one else, but O-Chul who overheard, knew about it.


If someone overpowers Redcloak - the most likely event of endangering it - Xykon will be left in the dark and can't retrieve it easily. A determined foe could simply neutralise it by, say, tossing it into the positive energy plane.

True, but then again Xykon isn't the most consummate planner. It would make sense for him, at least, to think to shield it to stop people from specifically targeting Redcloak to get the phylactery, but I can easily see the thought might not have crossed his mind that it could just end up lost at some point and he'd need to find it.

It is a bit of an oversight, but with some refinement it isn't a bad idea at all.

[HMS Invincible]

I thought the anti-scrying was just part of the cloister spell. You can't control someone else's homebrewed epic spell.

[Silverraptor]

"Boneheaded?"

http://www.tmonews.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/i-see-what-you-did-there.jpg

Best...Picture...Ever!:smallbiggrin:

[Kish]

He said that the phylactery had the best anti-detection spells he and Redcloak knew on it, and that they would have to search for it by hand. Not connected to Cloister, which will cease to apply as soon as the phylactery is no longer in Azure City.

[warrl]

He said that the phylactery had the best anti-detection spells he and Redcloak knew on it, and that they would have to search for it by hand. Not connected to Cloister, which will cease to apply as soon as the phylactery is no longer in Azure City.

Cloister would only have an effect if:
(a1) Xykon leaves Azure City and tries to detect the thing, or
(a2) Redcloak leaves Azure City and tries to detect the thing,

... AND ...

(b) the phylactery is still in Azure City.

It doesn't effect teleporting/scrying *within* Azure City, or *from* Azure City to somewhere else.

Only from somewhere else *into* Azure City.

[Kornaki]

Cloister would only have an effect if:
(a1) Xykon leaves Azure City and tries to detect the thing, or
(a2) Redcloak leaves Azure City and tries to detect the thing,

... AND ...

(b) the phylactery is still in Azure City.

It doesn't effect teleporting/scrying *within* Azure City, or *from* Azure City to somewhere else.

Only from somewhere else *into* Azure City.

Similar to how V would have no problem scrying on Haley once she left the confines of the cloister spell?

[warrl]

Similar to how V would have no problem scrying on Haley once she left the confines of the cloister spell?
It's specified that *characters* who leave Azure City have a lingering Cloister effect on them.

No mention of *objects*.

If that effect also applies to objects, then Cloister would also be effective for about three months after the phylactery leaves the city.

Thing is, the phylactery has so many anti-detection spells on it - not including Cloister - that an epic sorcerer-lich who is familiar with it and really wants to find it doesn't think it's worth the effort to try via magic. So how much does the Cloister really matter?

Oh, and actually, Xykon can find his phylactery any time he's willing to dedicate 1D10 days to the task. No matter where it is, and a mile or two out to sea might be a relatively safe place.

[Milandros]

Well, because he can't scry for it, Xykon is forced to order a couple of thousand hobgoblins to go look for it by hand. If he's lost his phylactery, he has to find it the hard way - but so does anyone else. Nobody else can scry and grab it.

Life rarely presents a "good" choice and a "bad" choice. Almost every choice is in fact a package deal - you get good things, with some risks or consequences associated with it. The trick is to choosing regrets you can live with, not choosing a perfect path without problems. This is true here as well. Shielding the phylactery from scrying has advantages and disadvantages. Xykon didn't expect it to go missing; he was enjoying the advantages of all the defences it had that stopped it being smashed very much right up to the point where it went "ploop".

[Dagren]

Well, because he can't scry for it, Xykon is forced to order a couple of thousand hobgoblins to go look for it by hand. If he's lost his phylactery, he has to find it the hard way - but so does anyone else. Nobody else can scry and grab it.And note that he has an army of thousands; the heroes? Don't. The advantage still seems to be quite clearly his.

[Kalbron]

The only question I have is why Xykon didn't add Instant Summons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/instantSummons.htm) to the thing. Surely if you're going to be bored and adding all the wards you can to it, a quick-find spell is surely a no-brainer. Especially for someone as lazy as Xykon.

Then again, the story is more interesting this way.

Though it would have been awesome in an evilgasm way for Xykon to crash through the wall and say he was going to kill O-Chul for losing his Phylactery in the sewers then...

:xykon: Nah, I'm just messing with you. Here it is! *Says the activation word and holds up the amulet.* And just when you thought you had accomplished at least something with your desperate antics... ah well. Time to die!

[theinsulabot]

And note that he has an army of thousands; the heroes? Don't. The advantage still seems to be quite clearly his.


DND and RPG rules come into play. the mooks can NEVER find plot specific items after the show has started, though apparently building the destructo-ray came on time and under budget. the only way they can find it is if a hero or innocent bystander finds it and they take it from him

[Grail]

Why?
The Power of Plot or for gag worthiness.

Trying to establish logic into a fictional character is fraught with danger. The giant wants certain things to happen, ergo, other things need to be.

[Ancalagon]

The only question I have is why Xykon didn't add Instant Summons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/instantSummons.htm) to the thing. Surely if you're going to be bored and adding all the wards you can to it, a quick-find spell is surely a no-brainer. Especially for someone as lazy as Xykon.

Urks. That'd be the worst idea he could have.
A) He does not really need it to summon.
B) Imagine this "To get to the Evil Overlords Phylactery, you must cross the River of Damned, go through the Plains of Hunger, climb the Hills of Death, dive through the Cavern of Desperation, fight Lava-Golems, Hope-Draining Monsters, Face the Demon of Deception, solve the Unsolveable Riddle and finally get the phylactery from the Chamber of the Traps. And after that, you must face the Head Cleric of the Evil Goblin God, who happens to carry it around his neck. Or, well, you could just find out what the word to summon the thing is, then it just appears in your hand."

Together with A), B) would be totally stupid, both Redcloak and Xykon are genre-educated enough to know that'd boomerang right back at them and result in a broken phylactery.

[theinsulabot]

Urks. That'd be the worst idea he could have.
A) He does not really need it to summon.
B) Imagine this "To get to the Evil Overlords Phylactery, you must cross the River of Damned, go through the Plains of Hunger, climb the Hills of Death, dive through the Cavern of Desperation, fight Lava-Golems, Hope-Draining Monsters, Face the Demon of Deception, solve the Unsolveable Riddle and finally get the phylactery from the Chamber of the Traps. And after that, you must face the Head Cleric of the Evil Goblin God, who happens to carry it around his neck. Or, well, you could just find out what the word to summon the thing is, then it just appears in your hand."

Together with A), B) would be totally stupid, both Redcloak and Xykon are genre-educated enough to know that'd boomerang right back at them and result in a broken phylactery.


well the d20 says only you can use the summoning gem

[Kalbron]

Not to mention you need to steal/obtain the gem from the Epic level Lich to even find out the word.

[Ancalagon]

Not to mention you need to steal/obtain the gem from the Epic level Lich to even find out the word.

Genre. Conventions.

Ask Sauron, all that had to happen was "to lose that uber-power ring that contained his own essence". How are the chances for that?
Reason and Probability have no chance as soon as genre-conventions start to play a role. Makeing the thing summonable is a free ticket to the good guys to (ab)use that effect in some (improbable) way...

[Dagren]

Genre. Conventions.

Ask Sauron, all that had to happen was "to lose that uber-power ring that contained his own essence". How are the chances for that?
Reason and Probability have no chance as soon as genre-conventions start to play a role. Makeing the thing summonable is a free ticket to the good guys to (ab)use that effect in some (improbable) way...Why exactly is that supposed to be more likely than losing the phylactery itself? I mean if you're going all DM fiat that he's going to lose something, then in the absence of the gem that only leaves the phylactery. Explain to me again what exactly he loses again from this?

[Ancalagon]

Why exactly is that supposed to be more likely than losing the phylactery itself? I mean if you're going all DM fiat that he's going to lose something, then in the absence of the gem that only leaves the phylactery. Explain to me again what exactly he loses again from this?

You now "can lose the phylactery AND get it summoned away". That's worse than "you can lose the phylactery", no? ;)

[Moriarty]

You now "can lose the phylactery AND get it summoned away". That's worse than "you can lose the phylactery", no? ;)

erm.. no?

the difference is only having the phylactery around or the gem to summon it

you lose the phylactery, the hero finds it. you lose the gem, the hero still needs the word to summon the phylactery

[Ancalagon]

Errrm, what happens if the heros dublicate the gem? Like mad haxXors? That'd make a fine plot and doom you brought upon yourself!

[ObadiahtheSlim]

First, the hero would need the gem. Second he'd have to know the special word to summon it. Third, the phylactery would have to be unattended. Since Redcloak always kept it on him, the spell would fail. All the hero would get is the knowledge that Redcloak has the phylactery and the location of Redcloak.

As for the anti-scry bit. I'd say that is a good idea. O-Chul only knew about it because Soon Kim identified it during the battle. The OOTS had no clue about where the phylactery would even be until O-Chul told them. If they tried to scry out the phylactery, their attempts would fail. They'd need some epic magic to try and learn anything. Possibly a trip to the oracle.

[Dagren]

Errrm, what happens if the heros dublicate the gem? Like mad haxXors? That'd make a fine plot and doom you brought upon yourself!The gem is created when you cast the spell on the phylactery. Sooo, if the hero is making another one, he already has your phylactery. So I think you have more problems than him getting the (useless to him anyway) gem.

[Porthos]

The only question I have is why Xykon didn't add Instant Summons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/instantSummons.htm) to the thing.

Wouldn't that require him to know Instant Summons. Sorcerers have to be picky about their spell lists after all.

Furthermore, if Xykon had IS why wouldn't he have used it on other Plot Important Items (like the Gate Book Diary, his Crown, his keys (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0095.html) :smalltongue:)?

Seems to me that the simpliest explanation is that he doesn't know the spell. :smallsmile:

[Dagren]

Wouldn't that require him to know Instant Summons. Sorcerers have to be picky about their spell lists after all.

Furthermore, if Xykon had IS why wouldn't he have used it on other Plot Important Items (like the Gate Book Diary, his Crown, his keys (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0095.html) :smalltongue:)?

Seems to me that the simpliest explanation is that he doesn't know the spell. :smallsmile:That's a good answer, but for something as important as his phylactery, I would have thought he could have found a scroll or something. They are the friends of sorcerers everywhere, after all.

[SteveMB]

Best...Picture...Ever!:smallbiggrin:

Except maybe this one:

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/funny-pictures-you-have-a-very-dangerous-box.jpg