V's achievement of ultimate power

[Hacktor]

:smallsmile:

I was just reading strip #331 and it dawned on me that V actually achieved ultimate arcane power form the three evil guys... but i have not found the instance where he\she does so... [except the one when she touches the blue sphere.. quote "I... I must succeed"] - witch might be technically true :P ..

Am i right? or just speculating?

Also if this has been discussed before please point me to it :P

[RMS Oceanic]

It has been discussed on a number of threads, and the general consensus is that 634 was indeed the fulfillment of the Oracle's prophecy.

The right words: I...I must succeed
The right being: H**self/The IFCC
The right time: To save h** family
The wrong reasons: To prove that (s)he doesn't need any help, and h** magic can achieve anything

There are some, though, that think instead that this occurrence is a fake out, designed to teach Vaarsuvius some important lessons, so that (s)he can truly earn the power later down the line.

[LuisDantas]

I just realized that Vaarsuvius loaded the question to the Oracle to the point that he could legitimaly interpret the ultimate power as being Vaarsuvius' only (as opposed to that of all wizards and sorcerers).

By that reading, he did get the ultimate power and lost it already. The four words would be "Disintegrate; Gust of Wind", directed at Kubota for entirely wrong reasons, and leading the Soul Splice deal.

[Hacktor]

That's what i get for being out of touch with the forums... that leaves only the prophecyes of Durkon, Ellan and V's Familiar ;)

[TVTMaster]

The problem is, the Giant could probably still raise the issue again. The words, being, time, and reasons are all a little shaky. I wouldn't be surprised if the Giant was faking us out.

Four words: The repetition of "I" could easily be counted as only three words.
Right time: This might seem safe, but plot could deem that the Time Stop messed it up.
Right being: The IFCC is more than one being, and "hirself" may also be somehow invalid.
Wrong reasons: Who's to say that saving hir family is is the wrong reason? If there was one situation that called for it, that was it. V's sense of self-worth and power may or may not have been "wrong" either.

Perhaps these little inconsistencies are proof of this being the definitive event, given both the Giant's and the Oracle's tendencies toward subverting expectations, but it also means that it remains possible for the Giant to do it again.

[yanmaodao]

I just realized that Vaarsuvius loaded the question to the Oracle to the point that he could legitimaly interpret the ultimate power as being Vaarsuvius' only (as opposed to that of all wizards and sorcerers).

By that reading, he did get the ultimate power and lost it already. The four words would be "Disintegrate; Gust of Wind", directed at Kubota for entirely wrong reasons, and leading the Soul Splice deal.

Yes, that's what I was thinking. V's ultimate power, as in the most arcane power he himself will ever wield in his life, not the ultimate arcane power of the OotS-verse. His recent holding of an effective level was so astronomically high that he couldn't gain any XP whatsoever is, realistically, probably the most raw power he'll ever wield.

But Xykon's "power" speech has led me to believe that perhaps Rich has indeed perhaps faked us out with the IFCC deal. More spells and a higher CR does not power make, after all.

Perhaps his four words are the last words he utters before performing some valiant (lower case 'f') feat that directly leads to saving the world. Say, a Magic Missile cast just at the right moment. And what "all the wrong reasons" were is something funny and trivial, without the ominous portend that we're led to expect.

[David Argall]

The four words would be "Disintegrate; Gust of Wind", directed at Kubota for entirely wrong reasons, and leading the Soul Splice deal.
Now ignoring the many other problems [not 4 words, not spoken to anyone, not for wrong reasons...] with this theory, killing Kubota did not lead to the soul splice deal, except in the sense that everything leads to whatever happens next.
V gives us her reasons for leaving the ship, and they have nothing to do with his having administered justice to Kubota. Rather he blames Durkon and Elan for being distractions. Whether or not she would have had problems caused by offing Kubota did not enter into the decision.

The major trigger for the deal was the attack by Mama, which was going to happen at some point whether or not Kubota died. The dragon would have continued to lurk off stage until a good chance to attack came up, and it would have eventually. At most Kubota's death changed the when, but not the how [which is what V asked].

[Dagren]

There are some, though, that think instead that this occurrence is a fake out, designed to teach Vaarsuvius some important lessons, so that (s)he can truly earn the power later down the line.I'd just like to say; well put. I've seen some that I've seen some who are downright insulting to those of us who aren't so sure whether the soul splice deal was really the prophecy or not.

[jmcminn]

Reasons supporting the notion that V's prophecy hasn't been fulfilled yet:

1) The deal with the IIFC was completed by touching blue orb, not by what V said.
2) Xykon's power speech strongly implies that V has not achieved complete and total ultimate arcane power...
3) Speech aside, Xykon winning that battle of arcane casters implies that V's arcane power was second to Xykon's -- which means it wasn't complete and total ultimate arcane power.

Clearly you can make the case that V's prophecy was fulfilled, and that V's loss was an illustration that arcane power isn't everything... but you can make the argument the other way too, and I wouldn't call people thinking that Rich is throwing a curve idiots

[Dork Lord]

V never attained ultimate arcane power. If he/she had, he/she would have trounced Xykon. What he got was a cheat. That doesn't count imho. I'm thinking the literal meaning of "Ultimate Arcane Power" would be via the divine salient ability "Divine Spellcasting". Of course, this would require V to attain divine ranks, but that's the only thing I see as Ultimate Arcane Power.

[RMS Oceanic]

V never attained ultimate arcane power. If he/she had, he/she would have trounced Xykon. What he got was a cheat. That doesn't count imho. I'm thinking the literal meaning of "Ultimate Arcane Power" would be via the divine salient ability "Divine Spellcasting". Of course, this would require V to attain divine ranks, but that's the only thing I see as Ultimate Arcane Power.

I disagree. As has been discussed at length, arcane power, ultimate or otherwise, does not impart one with the suggestions on how best to use it. V was given access to the raw power, but not the other abilities one who honestly gained this power would have. As Xykon said, power comes in different forms, and it's best to diversify where you gain your power from.

[Snails]

If we were to able to enter the OotS universe and ask V. directly whether the Soul Splice fulfilled the Oracle's promise of "ultimate arcane power", I believe very strongly that V. would answer in the affirmative.

V.'s magical firepower was more than adequate to the task of defeating Xykon. His failure was one of patience and planning IMO, and I would bet that V. sees it that way as well.


That said, I would not be shocked if the Giant did a double whammy and gave "ultimate arcane power" to V., yet again.

[Snails]

V never attained ultimate arcane power. If he/she had, he/she would have trounced Xykon. What he got was a cheat. That doesn't count imho. I'm thinking the literal meaning of "Ultimate Arcane Power" would be via the divine salient ability "Divine Spellcasting". Of course, this would require V to attain divine ranks, but that's the only thing I see as Ultimate Arcane Power.

I find it unlikely that V. would see things that way.

Regardless of how you would define "ultimate arcane power", how do you think V. would do so? Do you think V. believes the promise of the prophecy was fulfilled or not? Or is V. thinking "Well, Penultimate Arcane Power ain't too shabby. How sweet it will be when I have my hands on the real McCoy!"

[J.Gellert]

One thing that everyone can agree on is that it's not over, and the demons want V to survive. The Giant can continue playing with four words until V dies or the comic ends if he chooses to.

[MickJay]

V never attained ultimate arcane power. If he/she had, he/she would have trounced Xykon. What he got was a cheat. That doesn't count imho. I'm thinking the literal meaning of "Ultimate Arcane Power" would be via the divine salient ability "Divine Spellcasting". Of course, this would require V to attain divine ranks, but that's the only thing I see as Ultimate Arcane Power.

He didn't ask devils for "ultimate arcane power", but for power sufficient to save his family (which he did). Fiends described their offer in very vague terms (also, additional terms and conditions may apply), and V bought that without asking about the details. Still, what he got was, in his own understanding, the ultimate arcane power (all schools available, tons of spell slots, spontaneous casting, etc), which is enough to assume that oracle's prophecy came true (after all, while oracle's prophecies are true, they are also tailored for each customer; oracle knows what V considers to be UAP, and when V asks about it, the answer is straightforward: you'll get it in this way. V didn't ask how (or if) he will obtain the true and absolute arcane power. Ultimate means final, greatest. Since in his question V assumed he will achieve it, then Oracle's answer had to work that assumption into the answer; {you will achieve [your] greatest arcane power} by...

That's only one possible interpretation, though, I think that Xykon's monologue provided even better explanation to why, despite having the power, V ultimately failed.


One thing that everyone can agree on is that it's not over, and the demons want V to survive. The Giant can continue playing with four words until V dies or the comic ends if he chooses to.
I hope not, there's enough ambiguity with V's sex already :smalltongue: also, I think Giant used Xykon as his porte parole to explain in quite plain terms that V already had his UAP and simply didn't know what to do with it.

[abishur]

Seeing as how the name of the comic in question (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) is "The wrong reasons" it seems pretty obvious that regardless of how V might feel about "ultimate" arcane power Rich definitely intended that strip to be the fulfillment of the prophecy. It would, in fact, be rather bad form on Rich's part to come back and say "ha ha, just joking this is the fulfillment of the prophecy.

Moreover, reading Xy's taunting in 657 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html) shows that even Xy recognized that V had extreme (dare I say "ultimate") arcane powers but that she lacked the ability to properly use it; a fact further illustrated in 652 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) as V and the splices debate about which spell to use.

Finally, V went out for battle against the Dragon, her spells were focused to fight the Dragon and to show off her new found (albeit temporary) power to the rest of the part by reuniting everyone. Fighting V was not on the itinerary and V's loss was a direct result in trusting too much in the ultimate arcane power she had acquired and failed to really think this through.

It's like giving a redneck a nuclear bomb. They're just as likely to blow themselves up with their own lack of knowledge of the powerful weapon they've been given as they are to actually use it correctly on their enemies.

[Jagos]

It's like giving a redneck a nuclear bomb. They're just as likely to blow themselves up with their own lack of knowledge of the powerful weapon they've been given as they are to actually use it correctly on their enemies.
Just adding:

First, LOL.

Second, V didn't really have an enemy in Xykon. He went after him to prove his temporary power wasn't a fluke (which it was) and he could beat anything. I feel it was the fulfillment of the prophecy and he used it wrongly, believing he could scry-and-die against someone that had earned his levels.

To say that V gets a second chance when he screwed up (no research on Xykon himself, arrogance in his own acquired abilities) is deluding someone into believing he didn't get exactly what he wanted.

[Raziel3024]

It's been a long while since I read the Strip, so I decided to read the whole thing from the beginning.So V's "rise to power" shocked me.


Anyway, back on topic.I can't help but wonder if V's actions are going to have term effects(beyond the near-genocide of Black Dragons everywhere.)

[theinsulabot]

to those arguing that V didnt have ultimate arcane power because he wasn't able to defeat X, thats because he lost huerta. if V had fought x with huerta, he could of one shot xykon.


i reiterate, taken one single action (not including chain lightning to knock out the runes) and taken x from 100% to a pile of ash. maximized, empowered sunburst. huerta's power is probably low 30s and x even at most optimistic is mid to upper 20s. x wouldnt of made his save. game over.

but lets say i am wrong, lets say x makes a lucky throw of the dice. so he takes half damage. ok, x MIGHT of lived through a save. so then you follow it up with a quickened, empowered sunburst. even if X makes another lucky save, he is STILL dead. hell x could of been level 30 himself, and the extra hp and saving throws wouldnt matter because even then, the 2 shots are lethal.

so the splice gave V the power to of taken out X, the BBeG, in one single round, ALONE, with no advanced preparation

ultimate. arcane. power. its not the IFCC's fault v couldn't hold onto huerta long enough to pull it off

[multilis]

Its dawned on me... V has yet to reach another gate and the IFCC has big plans for V in future...

V controlling a *gate* may be key to the real "ultimate" power. The four words could be to Snarl, X, IFCC, Nale or already spoken.

A common sitcom joke is a character wheeling/dealing to get out of a mess and as result making even bigger mess, "wrong words for all the wrong reasons"

[Foryn Gilnith]

It would, in fact, be rather bad form on Rich's part to come back and say "ha ha, just joking this is the fulfillment of the prophecy.

Except if Rich did come back and truly fulfill the prophecy, he wouldn't be a **** and rub it in our faces like "haha lulz this is the pr0ph3cy for real guys". He'd pull it off with flair, or at least basic competence; the same way he pulled off an ambiguous prophecy fulfillment with flair and/or basic competence. The prophecy could have been fulfilled, but maybe it hasn't been. Either way could work without being bad form.

[Dork Lord]

I disagree. As has been discussed at length, arcane power, ultimate or otherwise, does not impart one with the suggestions on how best to use it. V was given access to the raw power, but not the other abilities one who honestly gained this power would have. As Xykon said, power comes in different forms, and it's best to diversify where you gain your power from.

Eh, just my opinion anyway.

[Xesirin]

I disagree. As has been discussed at length, arcane power, ultimate or otherwise, does not impart one with the suggestions on how best to use it. V was given access to the raw power, but not the other abilities one who honestly gained this power would have. As Xykon said, power comes in different forms, and it's best to diversify where you gain your power from.

That was what occured to me. This was arguably "Ultimate Arcane Power" in its purest form: had V used it correctly, as a person with more experience (and in this case I do NOT mean the tangible xp) might have, then this battle would have gone to V easily.

That said, I don't think Rich is throwing a curve, but I would believe it if we find out later he was.

[abishur]

Except if Rich did come back and truly fulfill the prophecy, he wouldn't be a **** and rub it in our faces like "haha lulz this is the pr0ph3cy for real guys". He'd pull it off with flair, or at least basic competence; the same way he pulled off an ambiguous prophecy fulfillment with flair and/or basic competence. The prophecy could have been fulfilled, but maybe it hasn't been. Either way could work without being bad form.

ha ha, true, that's just how I would personally feel if Rich did pull something like that. Besides, all evidence points to V getting the fulfillment of his prophecy (again, note the title of the comic "The Wrong Reasons"). And, as theinsulabot pointed out, by the time he reached Xy she had lost Haera, the fiends themselves point out here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) (11th panel) that she had some of the most useful spells. PLUS in the same comic they make note that the runes prevented the use of arcane magic by anyone by Xy and "Pigtail Chick" (Tsukiko).

True V blasted those away, but by then the damage had been done. V last her surprise round, wasted the next destroying the runes, tried a random spell in the hopes it would hurt Xy a lot (note them talking in the 11th frame, she has power but lacks understanding of it), and after that she looses the ability to cast her most powerful spell (due to Xy's first energy drain, then his MAXIMIZED energy drain).

So there it is. V started with the ultimate power, lost some of it, then was soundly defeated by others planning ahead (RC not Xy) and Xy intelligent use of the spells he had.

To use another analogy, V had a M-60 Machine Gun and Xy had a Glock, but Xy was able to win because he had extensive training with his Glock while V was just running around with a machine gun waving it widely.

EDIT: I had a really good analogy here, but I decided in the end it was too likely to offend someone so I have removed it.

Ultimate Arcane Power != knowledge to use said power effectively.

(man I hope that didn't offend anyone) :smalleek:

[Mystic Muse]

I have a suggestion. we wait until Rich comes and specifically says whether it was ultimate arcane power which would get rid of all ambiguity.:smalltongue: wow I'm kind of surprised that's a word.

I'm in the possibly not total arcane power camp myself. I think complete and total means you get it permanently. and I think we all know how it's going to happen.

V is going to become the god of magic!:smallbiggrin:

[moondog]

i am still of the mind that the four words were "I cannot fail again!" said to Qarr in panel 4 of 631 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0631.html). Qarr is definitely the right being (to facilitate a meeting between V and the IFCC) at the right time (when V desperately needs to go after the ABD). and it leads up to "the wrong reasons" in 634.

any other explanation is wrong, simply because i said so :smalltongue:

[LuisDantas]

Now ignoring the many other problems [not 4 words, not spoken to anyone, not for wrong reasons...] with this theory,

Uh?

Disintegrate, Gust of Wind - 4 words.

Spoken to Kubota.

For definitely wrong reasons, since he did not even know of any wrongdoing by Kubota.


killing Kubota did not lead to the soul splice deal, except in the sense that everything leads to whatever happens next.

In this case, it led to V`s strangement with Elan (and shortly after also Durkon), which led to being alone with Qarr, which led to the Soul Splice deal.

Quite straightforward, really.


V gives us her reasons for leaving the ship, and they have nothing to do with his having administered justice to Kubota.

That is what he says, hardly the complete truth. We even know that V was self-delusional at the time, from the strip where he has a nightmare about the guilt he feels on deserting the Azure City battle.

A more honest (and frankly, quite evident) view is that his failure in acting fairly about Kubota led directly to the break-up with the OOtS and therefore to the IFCC deal.


Rather he blames Durkon and Elan for being distractions. Whether or not she would have had problems caused by offing Kubota did not enter into the decision.

Plainly wrong. Vaarsuvius has heavy issues with acceptance. He can`t deal with being seen as inadequate. Kyrie, Miko, even fleeing Azure City soldiers, you name it - he just doesn`t know how to deal with accusations of improper behavior. The trigger of his exit was the difficulty of dealing with Durkon`s and Elan`s criticisms, even if he tried to hide that with criticism of his own.


The major trigger for the deal was the attack by Mama, which was going to happen at some point whether or not Kubota died.

The ABD herself told V that she waited until he was alone, apart from the fleet, so it is a direct consequence of his decision of leaving.


The dragon would have continued to lurk off stage until a good chance to attack came up, and it would have eventually.

Given the timing, we must assume that V would have received notice of Haley along with Durkon and Elan, and accompany them to the scene of Roy`s ressurrection without ever meeting the Mother Dragon (or even Qarr) had he not offed Kubota at that time. So your assumption doesn`t hold any water, I fear.


At most Kubota's death changed the when, but not the how [which is what V asked].

Except that changing the circunstances changes the possible outcomes.

[Generic Name #6]

Some thoughts:
1) "I...I must succeed" were in no way required for V to gain the soul splice. If [s]he silently touched the blue orb, [s]he would have achieved the same power

2) "Disintegrate, Gust of Wind" seem more plausible, however the Oracle said "to the right being". To me, that sort of ambiguity implies that it is *not* a person (i.e., not a "normal" humanoid) that V says the four words to. V would have achieved the same effect (leaving for the island) with just saying "Disintegrate". My interpretation of the prophesy is that whatever V says, only by saying those four words will [s]he attain the power.

[misterk]

I promise myself not to get drawn into these endless threads, but yet I am. It would be an extremely odd piece of storytelling for the Giant to devote this much time to a solo story arc, some of which had only (initially at least) tangential relationship to the story, and not have this be prophecy fulfilment. Bear in mind that the "wrong reasons" part is rather key, it implies quite strongly that when V would get the power, it would be for bad reasons, for arrogance. This entire arc has been designed to teach V humility, and the need for teamwork, and after it all V should hopefully be a lot more humble. I simply don't see something of this magnitude happening again- from a story telling point of view I don't see how this can happen.

I could be wrong- note that on Dominic Deegan as the Storm of Souls plot line came to an end I speculated that this would be the end of the comic in the forums, only to have Mookie comment that, no, it would keep going (of course, I rather think it SHOULD have ended then). But to me I simply cannot see how the Giant could have another arc like this all about V quite as massive. It just seems so thematically right for these to be the four words.

I wonder if some people don't want these to be the four words simply because they imagined ultimate arcane power to be absurd and godlike in nature (and apparently wiping out a 1/4 of the black dragon race and teleporting nearly an entire city worth of a fleet several thousand miles was not enough). I can only assume that their image of ultimate arcane power would be absurdly overpowered, breaking the plot in twain. This development made so much more sense from a plot point of view, and that, is of course, what matters.

[krko]

V didn't lose because s/he didn't have enough power. V lost because despite having an epic conjurer's spells, the only conjuration spells s/he cast were two greater teleports and two epic teleports. V used an epic conjurer as a taxi service. I mean, seriously, not even single summon monster spell? :smallsigh:

[Dork Lord]

V didn't lose because s/he didn't have enough power. V lost because despite having an epic conjurer's spells, the only conjuration spells s/he cast were two greater teleports and two epic teleports. V used an epic conjurer as a taxi service. I mean, seriously, not even single summon monster spell? :smallsigh:

Well aside from Gate, summoning spells generally suck.

[Snails]

I think yours is the strongest single point, misterk.


Bear in mind that the "wrong reasons" part is rather key, it implies quite strongly that when V would get the power, it would be for bad reasons, for arrogance.

The scenario that unfolded really nailed this angle perfectly, and it was a logical conclusion of an arc of well-motivated, increasing monomania on V's part.

In the end, V. risking his own neck to pour a couple potions down a good man's throat mattered more that a laundry list of ultra-high level spells at his fingertips. That is perfect karmic choreography.

[Bliu Skye]

I don't know about you guys, but I've always believed that V's four words would be some variation on "Give me the doily."
Seriously, guys. V's mate is a BAKER. And: "My preliminary inquest into the doily conundrum revealed that...the humble doily is indeed the gateway to ULTIMATE COSMIC POWER!!" The three dots denote a cut of V's verbosity.
So: Right being is Inkyrius. Right time: before the fiends take him/her away. Wrong reasons: fear of having to pay the price.

[MickJay]

I wonder if Giant simply forgot about the doily (one-time joke), it seems to me that if it was for real, V would have considered making use of his discovery much earlier.

[Dagren]

V never attained ultimate arcane power. If he/she had, he/she would have trounced Xykon. What he got was a cheat. That doesn't count imho. I'm thinking the literal meaning of "Ultimate Arcane Power" would be via the divine salient ability "Divine Spellcasting". Of course, this would require V to attain divine ranks, but that's the only thing I see as Ultimate Arcane Power.Ah, but is that arcane power or divine power? :smallbiggrin:

[abishur]

Bear in mind that the "wrong reasons" part is rather key, it implies quite strongly that when V would get the power, it would be for bad reasons, for arrogance. This entire arc has been designed to teach V humility, and the need for teamwork, and after it all V should hopefully be a lot more humble. I simply don't see something of this magnitude happening again- from a story telling point of view I don't see how this can happen.

Building on the "wrong reasons" idea, look a the name of the comic "The Wrong Reasons" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html). Isn't it time to stop bull-dogging the issue just because you have a different idea how "ultimate" arcane power should look (and again, remember he had lost on of his strongest offensive players by the time he got to Xy)? I mean, the only way Rich could have made it more obvious that V was getting his prophecy fulfilled was if he named it "The fulfillment of V's prophecy" but I get the feeling that that still wouldn't be enough for you nay sayers :smallwink:

[David Argall]

Disintegrate, Gust of Wind - 4 words.
No, the title of two spells, used instead of the actual words for the convenience of the readers. The Alternative means that spells like "Word of Recall", recently used by Redcloak, is actually words of recall. But our very understanding of spells like this are exactly 1 word long, not 3 or more. 306 is an extended statement that "Power Word Blind" is "ONE! WORD!". And that means in turn that other spell titles are not the few words we see.


Spoken to Kubota.
Spoken to nobody. Ignoring cases like charms, a spell is cast and effective no matter how much or little the target is aware of it. For Gust of Wind, there is no Kubota to be spoken to. He is not even a body. [If we turned the title into a sentence, it would be something like "Magic, remove this pile of trash." the ashes are not the thing being addressed. "Post no bills" is not addressed to the bills.]


For definitely wrong reasons, since he did not even know of any wrongdoing by Kubota.
V is not aware of the particular wrongdoing. She was aware that he was guilty of wrongdoing worthy of his being killed. Quite sufficient awareness to make that the right reason.



In this case, it led to V`s strangement with Elan (and shortly after also Durkon), which led to being alone with Qarr, which led to the Soul Splice deal.

V has never let any relationship, or lack of relationship, with Elan affect his actions. V and Elan argued before V left, but it simply is not the reason V left.


That is what he says, hardly the complete truth. We even know that V was self-delusional at the time, from the strip where he has a nightmare about the guilt he feels on deserting the Azure City battle.
Self-delusional? Only in certain respects. She feels her magic is inadequate. That does not make her delusional about why he wants to get away from the others.



his failure in acting fairly about Kubota
So what was unfair about it? As we can easily see, and Elan tells us, Kubota deserved it, and worse.



led directly to the break-up with the OOtS and therefore to the IFCC deal.
Led only in the sense of following it.


Plainly wrong. Vaarsuvius has heavy issues with acceptance. He can`t deal with being seen as inadequate.
There seems little evidence that V cares about what others think. Feeling inadequate, yes. But she denies the standing of others to judge things on a regular basis.



The trigger of his exit was the difficulty of dealing with Durkon`s and Elan`s criticisms, even if he tried to hide that with criticism of his own.
Where do we see evidence that V is bothered by such criticism? Or that the case of Kubota was some sort of watershed? Essentially, you seem to be ignoring what the comic says here.



The ABD herself told V that she waited until he was alone, apart from the fleet, so it is a direct consequence of his decision of leaving.
The timing was a direct consequence. The dragon would have continued to lurk and so would have merely attacked later, when V did leave. So the actual attack is not a consequence of the leaving.


Given the timing, we must assume that V would have received notice of Haley along with Durkon and Elan, and accompany them to the scene of Roy`s ressurrection without ever meeting the Mother Dragon (or even Qarr) had he not offed Kubota at that time.
Now A-the dragon might have attacked them on the way, and
B-there is no need for the dragon to attack within a week or even a year. Eventually there would be a chance.



Except that changing the circunstances changes the possible outcomes.
Of course, but that makes a tremendous number of things the cause of the result. We can see a tremendous number of ways V meets the dragon and the fiends with or without dealing with Kubota. We don't see it as a cause that leads to the dragon compared to alternatives.

[MickJay]

V is not aware of the particular wrongdoing. She was aware that he was guilty of wrongdoing worthy of his being killed. Quite sufficient awareness to make that the right reason.

V deduced that Kubota was guilty of wrongdoing from the context, agreed. Still, he had no way of determining whether the wrongdoing was actually severe enough to be punishable with death. Elan needed to rationalize Kubota's death by acknowledging that the just verdict would have probably been death anyway, but was shocked when he learned that V killed the daimyo without actually knowing what the wrongdoing was, i.e., without having sufficient information to decide whether Kubota really deserved death (and not, for example, life in jail, banishment, or some other punishment).

[Dagren]

I mean, the only way Rich could have made it more obvious that V was getting his prophecy fulfilled was if he named it "The fulfillment of V's prophecy" but I get the feeling that that still wouldn't be enough for you nay sayers :smallwink:See, this is exactly the sort of insulting, passive-aggressive bull**** that I'm sick of. The fact of the matter is that Rich left it somewhat ambiguous. If he talks about the fulfillment of the prophecy in the next book, or they visit the oracle again, I'll be perfectly happy to admit that it's done. (I realise you're kidding, but I've seen the same basic thing said quite seriously before. No offense meant to you, it's the argument I'm bashing)

In summary, to those who say "It's happened already, are you too stupid to see this?", I respond "It's ambiguous, are you too stupid to see this?" (And that's pretty mild compared to some of the things I've seen said on this topic, if you can believe that)

[abishur]

The fact of the matter is that Rich left it somewhat ambiguous. If he talks about the fulfillment of the prophecy in the next book, or they visit the oracle again, I'll be perfectly happy to admit that it's done. (I realise you're kidding, but I've seen the same basic thing said quite seriously before. No offense meant to you, it's the argument I'm bashing)

QUOTE]

Ignoring the tirade, I politely disagree that there's any ambiguousness left. (though I never was out to imply that anyone who thought so was too stupid to see it, but that the facts should be reexamined)[/I] Addressing those who contend that 4 words took place on the boat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html). Consider some facts.

1) We all know how much Rich enjoys playing with the title of the strip. There is ZERO hinting at the time that this was the fulfillment of the prophecy. Whereas with the strips with the fiends he comes out and says "The Wrong Reasons" as I said before it's a little difficult to be any more clear without coming out and saying "here's your fulfillment"

2) Killing Kuboto with four words is different from "saying" four words to a "being". Even if I were to grant you the words "disintegrate" in a burst of generosity. Who did she speak the next three words to? Elan? Cause I don't think Elan how the power to grant arcane power (be they ultimate or otherwise) to a hand puppet let alone an elf.

3) The wording of V's question (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html)implies the immediate moment at which she gains "complete and total ultimate arcane powers". Since V did not gain any additional power by speaking to (Elan, a pile of ash, the wind?) it stands to reason that this was NOT the right moment

4) The line of logic being used to try and justify that those four words set in motion everything to gain the ultimate power is reminiscent of another equally flawed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html) line of reasoning.

5) Killing Kuboto had nothing directly to do with the fiends approaching V. Comic 637 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html) states and I quote

[QUOTE]
Fiend 1: We first became aware of [V] from one of our agents-
Fiend 2: -A succubus that has been working under Director Lee.


They had had their eye on V for a long time and were just waiting for the moment to get their hands on her. It wasn't Kuboto dying that was the reason V left (a fact she points out here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0599.html) that was due to Elan and Durkon's constant calling for assistance, a plot thread planted back here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0553.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0563.html)at the orc island).

Addressing those who don't think V ever gained ultimate arcane power. I again draw your attention to this strip here (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0641.html)where the fiends make note of the fact that Haerta was the most powerful by "a fair bit" as well as the fact that the other two were "flexible" (Mr. Stretch Armstrong) and a glorified "teleporter". She had the ultimate arcane power only so long as she had all three of them. That was the deal. Three super powerful souls, 1 individual of total and complete arcane power.

Additionally, trying to resurrect the "V gets ultimate arcane power" plot line would completely nullify the point of this past arc. V has just learned that arcane power isn't always the end solution. That often your "victory" comes from working together as a team. By regressing back to a point where she would give up so much for the wrong reasons (the wrong reasons for the record was not the desire to save her family, but the fact that it could have been done in a manner that relied on her fellow PCs and the fact that V rejected this out too much pride) would destroy the character development that just occurred. Or in simpler terms: it would be crappy writing.

Finally, addressing the little tirade, there's passive aggressive and there's polite. I was attempting to be the latter by respectfully reminding those who might have been tempted to get married to their idea and bulldog it no matter what evidence is contributed to the contrary that with any discussion we need to step back a little and reexamine their idea. With each post I read it and try to consider "Is this a valid point? Am I arguing just because I don't want to be wrong at this point?" and "What Would Thor Do?" So yes, I realize you were attacking the argument. But please make sure to actually go off on someone guilty of what you're complaining instead of someone who happened to be trying to keep things light and (hopefully) encourage others to actually discuss topics with an open mind instead of pulling up a Maginot line and digging in deep. After all, I get the feeling that most people here are willing to do just that (keep an open mind that is), but might need a gentle prod every once in awhile.:smallwink:

[Porthos]

I respond "It's ambiguous, are you too stupid to see this?"

<responding in a joking fashion>
Yes. Yes, I am. :smalltongue:
</responding in a joking fashion>

Slightly more serious, I'm afraid to say that I see no ambiguity here. Or, rather, I see a very very very minor chance at there being ambiguity.

Now if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. And I'll cheerfully admit to being wrong. And I'll say I'm wrong enough times to satisfy even the harshest critic of this storyline. :smallsmile:
.
.
.
.
.
I just don't think I am wrong. :smalltongue:

[spargel]

I just have a problem with is how little significance the four words had with her achieving the power.

[Spiky]

I think it's fun that it only took about a minute for V to go from having UAP to being incapacitated and dragged around by his face. Classic!

[Generic Name #6]

While you raise some good point, abishur, I am still not convinced that V gained the soul splices by saying "I...I must succeed"; V could just have easily touched the blue orb in silence with the same effect.

[Porthos]

While you raise some good point, abishur, I am still not convinced that V gained the soul splices by saying "I...I must succeed"; V could just have easily touched the blue orb in silence with the same effect.

The general thrust of the argument, which one can buy or not buy, is that V had to talk himself into doing the deed. If he hadn't said "I... I must succeed" he would have wussed out and not touched the orb, and thus not gotten CaTUAP.

Thus it was the talking ones self into to pulling the trigger that did it.

[abishur]

While you raise some good point, abishur, I am still not convinced that V gained the soul splices by saying "I...I must succeed"; V could just have easily touched the blue orb in silence with the same effect.

lol, of course he could have, but then it wouldn't have been fulfilling the prophecy now would it? :smallwink: That is the thing about prophecy, we get to see it from the very beginning of this comic strip with Roy's dad's foreshadowing (when the goat turns red strikes true). The key to knowing when the prophecy had taken place (aside from a one time deal of Rich actually explaining stuff like this in no uncertain terms) was when all the plot relevant points came together.

It's the same thing here. All the plot points of V's quest for the UAP (a quest that came at the cost of her own mental and physical health) came to a head. It could be argued that V was the being who the four words were spoken to and that they were simply her self rationalization.

Though in the end, I must admit that because V did gain UAP, then those four words were the ones that the prophecy refered to. A bit of circular reasoning on the surface, but in the end we can look at the fiends themselve in 633 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html) state that



The amount of raw energy from your four combined souls would dwarf that wielded by any mortal arcane spell caster who has ever lived

(fifth panel)

That's a pretty definitive statement of UAP, ne?

[spargel]

That's a pretty definitive statement of UAP, ne?

That depends on what you define UAP as. "Ultimate" is a pretty subjective word. "Power" can also be subjective.

[abishur]

That depends on what you define UAP as. "Ultimate" is a pretty subjective word. "Power" can also be subjective.

very well what do you interpret the fiends statement to mean? When they tell V that she will such power that it would dwarf that wielded by any mortal arcane spell caster who has ever lived. What is your interpretation?

[Azura]

I, for one, interpret it as a fancy sales pitch :smalltongue:

Regarding the prophecy, I'm leaning towards the "already has been fulfilled" position, but there's certainly room for ambiguity.

[Rotipher]

While you raise some good point, abishur, I am still not convinced that V gained the soul splices by saying "I...I must succeed"; V could just have easily touched the blue orb in silence with the same effect.

True ... but Haley could've hypothetically regained her speech under different circumstances also. The Oracle predicts the chain of events that actually will happen to someone, not every possible alternative sequence that might produce the same result.

[abishur]

I, for one, interpret it as a fancy sales pitch :smalltongue:



ha ha, it wouldn't be the first time Rich feed us disinformation :smalltongue:, but when you consider the sequence on the whole, and the theme of V's little arc, as well as the power he clearly wielded until the loss of Haerta, I find it slightly unlikely that this is a case of disinformation