O-Chul was tougher than Miko

[Dork Lord]

I had never caught this until now but in this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0479.html) strip, Hinjo clearly states that "I chose O-Chul to defend the throne room because he was the toughest of us all". Wouldn't this seem to imply that O-Chul was more powerful than Miko?

[Zevox]

Considering Miko wasn't exactly a candidate to do anything for the Sapphire Guard at the time, no.

Zevox

[hamishspence]

Has the most hit points/highest Constitution is more likely.

in War & XPs, this was pointed out in one of the text sections: how did he survive the castle explosion? Answer: O-chul has a Constitution in the mid 20s.

[Tempest Fennac]

Also, the fact that O-Chul survived the throne room explosion suggests he has a much larger number of HPs then Miko (O-Chul probably took more falling damage as well).

[Snake-Aes]

I had never caught this until now but in this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0479.html) strip, Hinjo clearly states that "I chose O-Chul to defend the throne room because he was the toughest of us all". Wouldn't this seem to imply that O-Chul was more powerful than Miko?

Read a dictionary, sir. Powerful != Tough

[Ted The Bug]

Toughness doesn't always equal power. While it's definitely true that O-Chul is far tougher than Miko was, Miko could still outgun him in a fight with pure damage. I mean, O-Chul is tougher than Xykon, and would survive longer in a situation without spells, but Xykon's spells and skills would still allow him to be more powerful than O-Chul.

[hamishspence]

and the Feat Toughness does one thing only- increases Hit points. Implication- toughness is a measure of how much damage you can take.

[Dork Lord]

Read a dictionary, sir. Powerful != Tough

"Tough" is one of those words that can mean many things, including powerful. I suppose it all comes down to exactly what Hinjo meant by "Toughest". All I'm saying is it's a possibility that O-Chul was higher level than Miko. Everything's conjecture, but there can be implications for many conclusions to come to. I just thought it was an interesting comment that I hadn't noticed before.

[Moriarty]

"Tough" is one of those words that can mean many things, including powerful. I suppose it all comes down to exactly what Hinjo meant by "Toughest". All I'm saying is it's a possibility that O-Chul was higher level than Miko. Everything's conjecture, but there can be implications for many conclusions to come to. I just thought it was an interesting comment that I hadn't noticed before.

Ochul himself said that Miko was their finest warrior

[Dork Lord]

Ochul himself said that Miko was their finest warrior

Hmm, alright, I think I missed that. Of course, he could have just been being humble.

[hamishspence]

and Miko (admittedly maybe somewhat egotistical) says to Hinjo "You may be the second most powerful paladin in the sapphire guard, but you are no match for me"

Though the fact that Miko and O-chul are both multiclass might make that statement somewhat unhelpful- it could be "second most powerful paladin, but fourth or fifth most powerful member"

[lord_khaine]

i think Miko more or less taking the order down on her own proves her to be the most powerful member of the saphire guard.

[hamishspence]

ah, but is she the most powerful paladin? With her monk levels, she might be less powerful in paladin terms, but more powerful in member terms:

She could be the most powerful member of the SG, but outstripped by some other paladins in terms of power of her paladin abilities.

I doubt it, but the wording does mean it could be interpreted that way.

[derfenrirwolv]

D&D 3e allows for a lot of customization for your character. If you're focused on something (hit points and survivability) you can be better at it than someone that's a higher level than you thats focused on something else.. to a point.

[Porthos]

It's also theoretically possible that O-Chul gained levels while he was in captivity, and thus passed Miko in "power". It's kinda iffy (does surviving those death traps while not killing the person who is setting them fifty feet away count for gaining XP) and it requires O-Chul not to lose levels due to level draining. But it isn't outside the realm of possibility.

[Worira]

i think Miko more or less taking the order down on her own proves her to be the most powerful member of the saphire guard.

That was, to a huge degree, luck/plot.

[hamishspence]

The Giant apparently statted out her second fight with the order- describing what happened round by round. It wasn't all luck.

[Stormthorn]

Read a dictionary, sir. Powerful != Tough

In this case it might. If they are both paladins with essentialy equal class abilities then the one that rolled higher on Con and Hitpoints is the superior character.

What level are they anyways?

[Dagren]

It's also theoretically possible that O-Chul gained levels while he was in captivity, and thus passed Miko in "power". It's kinda iffy (does surviving those death traps while not killing the person who is setting them fifty feet away count for gaining XP) and it requires O-Chul not to lose levels due to level draining. But it isn't outside the realm of possibility.Why does everyone seem to think of XP in terms of killing? O-Chul's objective in all of those death traps was to not die. He's still alive. Therefore he's been overcoming (perhaps minor, but undeniably real) challenges for months. Maybe Stick-world is different and you only get XP from killing enemies there, but under regular D&D rules, he should have gained quite a bit of juicy XP. (Whether he has upped level or not is another matter, since that usually happens between adventures and he hasn't been free at all)

[hamishspence]

But O-chul has stated himself that he was once a fighter- would explain weak paladin abilities but great fighting skill and hit points.

[Porthos]

Why does everyone seem to think of XP in terms of killing?

I don't think XP works that way. But I know that a lot of people do, hence my "iffy" comment. I was just trying not to take a side in a debate for once. :smallwink:

As for leveling, since Haley leveled up while she was wandering around in Xykon's dungeon, I see no reason why O-Chul couldn't have leveled up while he was sitting in his cage.

[Dork Lord]

But O-chul has stated himself that he was once a fighter- would explain weak paladin abilities but great fighting skill and hit points.

Not to mention a bunch of nifty Fighter feats that Miko wouldn't have. Mind you, I'm not saying that Miko could have definitely taken O-Chul, but a lot of her "power" as a Paladin would only apply to evil beings. I personally think it's likely that O-Chul's superior hit points, better BaB and Fighter feats would give him an advantage, even if only a minor one... and since "Smite Evil" wouldn't work on O-Chul, that's a big advantage that Miko would have had out the window.

Makes you wonder what feats O-Chul took, anyway. I mean aside from Bad*ssery and Greater Bad*ssery, of course. :smallwink:

This is only if you consider "who's tougher" to mean who would win in a fight, rather than who's more effective against the denizens of evil.

[Ridureyu]

So, does this mean that O-Chul may be our first optimized character?

[Iranon]

I'm not sure Miko was all that tough (in the sense of sturdy). She was built to have a decent damage output while being mobile and having saving throws through the roof coupled with evasion.
That took a few 'resources' though... she had high ability requirements in most things *but* CON to make this work, she had several offense-oriented feats, not all of her class levels had d10 hit dice, and her monk abilities probably mean she isn't wearing heavy armour.

Her build makes perfect sense for solo adventuring: A single save-or-lose can kill you because there's nobody to cover for you. As such, you want good saving throws and the ability to take out dangerous casters asap. She was still competent in melee despite sacrificing some staying power - if her high damage output won't carry the day, mobility will.

*

O-Chul on the other hand has an impressive constitution as confirmed by the Giant; it would make sense to assume that he's 'built to last' in other ways as well. As such, O-Chul having considerably more hp than Miko despite being lower level overall wouldn't surprise me in the least.

[Malacandra]

Makes you wonder what feats O-Chul took, anyway. I mean aside from Bad*ssery and Greater Bad*ssery, of course. :smallwink:

No, no. Bad*ssery takes "O-chul" as a feat. I thought we'd agreed on that? :smallamused:

[Moriarty]

So, does this mean that O-Chul may be our first optimized character?

as a paladin without cha... no

altough he got pretty lucky with rolling his stats

[Ridureyu]

Well, compared to everybody else?

[Callista]

It's also theoretically possible that O-Chul gained levels while he was in captivity, and thus passed Miko in "power". It's kinda iffy (does surviving those death traps while not killing the person who is setting them fifty feet away count for gaining XP) and it requires O-Chul not to lose levels due to level draining. But it isn't outside the realm of possibility.You do gain XP for traps and other obstacles; for example, you gain XP for sneaking past guards, figuring out a puzzle, or successfully attempting diplomacy with an enemy. So, yes--if O-Chul's level advancement is being done by XP (or maybe even if it isn't), he's gaining levels.

O-Chul is definitely tougher than Miko. Her monk levels have a lower HD than her Paladin levels, for one; and she doesn't have near his CON score. There's wide variation in hit points from person to person anyway; V with d4s and an average CON might have only as many HPs as Roy had at a third of V's level. It's supposed to be that way; otherwise you'd have a bunch of wizards wading into melee (well, more than they do now, anyway).

O-Chul is more "specialized" than "optimized". You build a character to specialize in one thing, and you can probably make him really good at that one thing--at the expense of flexibility and thereby at the expense of survival. O-Chul would be great as the party tank--if someone else were slinging the spells and doing the damage--but no good as a solo adventurer.

[Steward]

Well, compared to everybody else?

Well, yeah. I mean, Elan actually picked up the legendary negative d6 when he was rolling his Intelligence.

[Samurai Jill]

Hmm, alright, I think I missed that. Of course, he could have just been being humble.
He did? Must've missed that...

[Azura]

He did? Must've missed that...

Right here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0411.html)

[Mr. Mud]

I had never caught this until now but in this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0479.html) strip, Hinjo clearly states that "I chose O-Chul to defend the throne room because he was the toughest of us all". Wouldn't this seem to imply that O-Chul was more powerful than Miko?

Firstly, define 'powerful'. :smallbiggrin:

I think, and have thought, that Miko's and O's builds and character roles are different... It's like comparing an Rogue to a Fighter or something... they are both equally powerful, but in different aspects :smallamused:.

[Jagos]

I'm not sure Miko was all that tough (in the sense of sturdy). She was built to have a decent damage output while being mobile and having saving throws through the roof coupled with evasion.
That took a few 'resources' though... she had high ability requirements in most things *but* CON to make this work, she had several offense-oriented feats, not all of her class levels had d10 hit dice, and her monk abilities probably mean she isn't wearing heavy armour.

Her build makes perfect sense for solo adventuring: A single save-or-lose can kill you because there's nobody to cover for you. As such, you want good saving throws and the ability to take out dangerous casters asap. She was still competent in melee despite sacrificing some staying power - if her high damage output won't carry the day, mobility will.

*

O-Chul on the other hand has an impressive constitution as confirmed by the Giant; it would make sense to assume that he's 'built to last' in other ways as well. As such, O-Chul having considerably more hp than Miko despite being lower level overall wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Just wanted to add to this one.

I have to think of Miko as a rogue/fighter. She can twist and dodge with the best of them, and still put a wallop on everyone she met. She gets hit a few times, though it hurts her deeply.

O-Chul is like a Tank. He's built to take damage and keep coming at you. He doesn't use a lot of finesse in his fighting but he hits you, you stay DOWN. I'd like to know what type of fighter he really was before being a Pally. That's the main mystery right now.

[Callista]

He sounds to me like the type to pick up a big, heavy two-handed weapon. Shields aren't that useful when you have enough HP to soak up the damage.

[Moriarty]

Just wanted to add to this one.

I have to think of Miko as a rogue/fighter. She can twist and dodge with the best of them, and still put a wallop on everyone she met. She gets hit a few times, though it hurts her deeply.

O-Chul is like a Tank. He's built to take damage and keep coming at you. He doesn't use a lot of finesse in his fighting but he hits you, you stay DOWN. I'd like to know what type of fighter he really was before being a Pally. That's the main mystery right now.

nah, if he would be dealing so much damage in an average fight he wouldn't be considered weaker than Hinjo by Miko. He's propably weak in hitting too (I choose to interpret his performance since his imprisonment on crits on lucky dice, nothing you can rely on).

about Miko's power, i like to point out the strip shortly after she lost her paladin powers. After getting hurt by Roy, loosing all her paladin powers AND magic items (only work on paladins, therefore she isn't blue anymone (giants commentary in bonus materials)) she still defeated Hinjo without getting hit once.

[Worira]

The Giant apparently statted out her second fight with the order- describing what happened round by round. It wasn't all luck.

Not entirely, no. It was a mixture of luck/plot, extremely poor tactics from the Order, and a rule mistake/houserule from the Giant (stunning fist targeting Will when it should have targetted Fort).

[Jagos]

Not entirely, no. It was a mixture of luck/plot, extremely poor tactics from the Order, and a rule mistake/houserule from the Giant (stunning fist targeting Will when it should have targetted Fort).

Well, they weren't exactly expecting Miko to fight them and the Surprise Round did catch Belkar offguard... But still she IS pretty good.

[SPoD]

about Miko's power, i like to point out the strip shortly after she lost her paladin powers. After getting hurt by Roy, loosing all her paladin powers AND magic items (only work on paladins, therefore she isn't blue anymone (giants commentary in bonus materials)) she still defeated Hinjo without getting hit once.

Hinjo, despite Miko's statement, has been consistently shown as a pushover. He has never won a fight that he's been in: Miko, huecuva, ninjas, Redcloak, big giant devil...he needs to be rescued every time.

Therefore, I take it as likely that Miko's statement means: "You have the second most number of paladin levels in the Sapphire Guard." O-Chul is actually higher in total level than Hinjo, but like 8-10 of his levels are in fighter.

Alternately, Miko knows that O-Chul dumped Cha, and is measuring overall effectiveness in their class. O-Chul is a fantastic warrior, but he is a so-so paladin (if you define a "powerful paladin" to be one who is good at a paladin's core powers).

[ericgrau]

I prefer the simplest explanation. Miko is more powerful than Hinjo who is more powerful than O'Chul. But O'Chul can take more physical punishment (most likely constitution => HP, since the Giant has talked about his con score), even though O'Chul wouldn't win in a fight.