turning Tiamat good.

[Mystic Muse]

is there anyway to do this short of mind-rape type abilities? I want her to turn good in my campaign (for my own reasons) but need a convincing reason or two that she does.

[Yora]

The most plausible way is to say "she was always good". It's just another five headed dragon god of the same name.

Reasons to turn an, usually ancient evil god, to good are very hard to find.

[Ravens_cry]

Would you have to put a helm of opposite alignment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#helmofOppositeAlignment) on each of her heads? Maybe it would be best to make an expy, with most of tiamats flavour and abilities, but good. Because the " was misunderstood" excuse seems a bit weak-sauce when we are talking about gods damn TIAMAT.

[Alteran]

Ooh! Put a helm of opposite alignment on each of her heads and see what happens! :smalltongue:

[Mystic Muse]

I'm trying to avoid things that are like mind-rape which is what a helm of alignment change would do. the characters need to CONVINCE her to turn good.

[hamishspence]

Deities can undergo character development, but its rare and slow.

Finder Wyvernspur as a deity starts out as self-centred and somewhat irresponsible, but improves a bit, with the influence of his clerics.

Still CN though.

[Alteran]

...how do they expect to turn one of the most powerful evil beings in existence good through honest means? Gods will have extremely strong willpower, both in the sense of will saves and resistance to being convinced by more mundane means. I'd be amazed if they could talk to Tiamat without her trying to kill them. It just doesn't seem like something that can be done without a major DM fiat.

Also, doesn't Tiamat have some association with devils? Some creatures are considered to be "beings of evil", and therefore it would be unreasonable to expect they have the capacity for good. I'd think as a powerful evil god (with ties to devils?) Tiamat would fall under this category.

[Mystic Muse]

out of curiosity what alignment is Tiamat?

and chromatic dragons only have a 1% good rate but I'm not following that rule or any other alignment rule either.

and I'm aware that convincing Tiamat would be dang near impossible. that's why I'm asking for something to possibly convince her that doesn't involve breaking her mind.

I also don't think she's a demon. she's just an evil god.

[Alteran]

Lawful Evil, I believe.

[hamishspence]

Tiamat, unlike most deities, is a Dragon, not an Outsider.

Which means that she does not have alignment subtypes.

So, if she herself had an epiphany of some sort, she wouldn't have a mechanical problem of being literally made of the alignment she wants to change out of. (which has occasionally been overcome by fiends anyway.)

Of all the Evil deities, Tiamat is one of the most able to change, through not being Made Of Evil.

[Mystic Muse]

thank you for pointing that out hamishpence. in case I have to do the "she was misunderstood" or something along those lines I can use that as my reasoning she changed. :smallbiggrin:

gives cookie. oh wait. http://www.lolcats.com/view/12

[Mewtarthio]

Here's the thing: Tiamat is a god. Tiamat is immortal. She has, by this point, been exposed to every single argument that could have reasonably convinced her to join the side of Good. And that's not just from mortals, with their limited understanding of the nature of the cosmos: She's talked to gods, whose arguments transcend human comprehension. There is virtually no way any human being could turn her Good without utterly destroying suspension of disbelief.

If you insist, however, the most reasonable plot I could imagine would be that Tiamat has some massive goal she's been working towards, and the PCs demonstrate the futility of said goal to her. This requires giving the PCs access to information that not even the gods have access to, and even then they would not be allowed to directly present this evidence to Tiamat.

[Mystic Muse]

why wouldn't they be allowed to present this information to her exactly?:smallconfused:

[hamishspence]

Hoar, god of vengeance, was LN in 3rd ed, facing arguments from both sides (Bane wanting him to be Evilly vengeful, Tyr wanting him to be god of poetic justice)

In 4th ed, he's an Evil servant of Bane.

Maybe Tiamat might have started doing something similar herself. She has been known to present herself differently to spin-off groups of worshippers (Entropy cult, for example)

Maybe she could have invested heavily in becoming a god of adventurers- beings who collect enormous amounts of wealth and are extremely vengeful to their enemies, exactly like chromatic dragons.

[Shadow_Elf]

How about telling her that that god/primordial/whatever thing she and Bahamut killed when they were split from the original Io is back and they need her help? If it was true, that would at least cause her to be helpful, if not good.

EDIT: Is that a 4e only thing?

[Mystic Muse]

How about telling her that that god/primordial/whatever thing she and Bahamut killed when they were split from the original Io is back and they need her help? If it was true, that would at least cause her to be helpful, if not good.

EDIT: Is that a 4e only thing?


yeah it is. I have a being who's already capable of killing several gods already anyway. the point of this isn't to get Tiamat temporarily on the side of good. it's to convince her to be good PERMANENTLY. or at least for a very long time.

[Rustscale]

I would suggest the use of artifacts/ancient machinations. For example, the PCs find and activate, a quest in and of itself, an artifact that a) Causes Tiamat's alignment to change, perhaps banishing fiends controlling her, b) alters Tiamat's five heads to instead be the five metallic dragon heads, or maybe c) summoning a greater, big-brother like power (Bahamut? Io?) which defeats her/convinces her to change her ways. The beauty about artifacts are that they need no in-game rules, merely effects, allowing you to add whatever fluff you desire.

[Mewtarthio]

why wouldn't they be allowed to present this information to her exactly?:smallconfused:

She's an evil god. They are presumably good mortals. They'd need a lot of clout to get her to listen to them. Note that I'm not saying they couldn't present the information to her; they'd just have to go through one of her lieutenants or a friendlier god first.

[Mystic Muse]

I would suggest the use of artifacts/ancient machinations. For example, the PCs find and activate, a quest in and of itself, an artifact that a) Causes Tiamat's alignment to change, perhaps banishing fiends controlling her, b) alters Tiamat's five heads to instead be the five metallic dragon heads, or maybe c) summoning a greater, big-brother like power (Bahamut? Io?) which defeats her/convinces her to change her ways. The beauty about artifacts are that they need no in-game rules, merely effects, allowing you to add whatever fluff you desire.

this and the next one down are good. I plan on having them take a run through a hell or two anyway so them facing one of her lieutenants wouldn't be too bad.

hmm the fiends controlling her idea would work VERY well and I think I could present it in a way that make controlling a god seem plausible

[Rustscale]

Also try this article here: http://www.giantitp.com/articles/XbsQgS9YYu9g3HZBAGE.html
That's Rich's article about villain's emotional responses. After all, villains, even gods, have emotions as well, and are subject to irrational actions just like the rest of us.

[Ravens_cry]

True, and I think that is a very good article. But there is a difference between an 'irrational' action, and well. . .an Asspull. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Asspull)Frankly, I would rather have the DM say, "oh, in this world, Tiamat is good" then have a an explicitly Evil God turn good while they play, without some very good reasons. Even the DMG recommends that, in general, that an alignment shift take time. Turning her lawful neutral first may be a good step.

[Lapak]

Not too many ways I can think of this being done that doesn't feel false.

First thing that pops to mind is to address this a la The Dark One in OotS, actually: let the players discover that she is Evil because of an injustice that is built into the very fabric of the universe. Waaaaay back at the beginning of time, her first draconic children (the forbears of chromatic dragons) were corrupted by some necessary factor of Creation itself, condemning them forever not just to be hated, but to be hated justifiably, because Evil was born into their hearts from the egg. Perhaps there was a surfeit of pure, metaphysical Evil in the newly born universe, and her children were the only mortal beings powerful enough to contain it. She protested against this, she tried to undo it, but it could not be undone without cracking the Material Plane asunder and wreaking havoc on all that was. She swore that her heart would be as cold and wicked as those of her corrupted children, and has been a force for evil ever since out of sheer hatred for the necessity of their bondage.

Eons later, the PCs discover this story, and uncover the truth: the universe is now stable enough to withstand the unleashing of this corruption. If they perform great and heroic feats, find rare and hidden artifacts, and dare the wrath of the gods, they can unchain chromatic dragons from their inborn evil, allowing them to be born Neutral or even Good. This will cause great danger: the raw, elemental Evil will take shape as demons and devils or even cause the birth of new evil gods, and it will wreak havoc on the area where the final ritual is performed. But it will free the chromatic dragons, and restore Tiamat's heart at last.

[Yakk]

Do you have a fixed backstory to Tiamat?

Here is an attempt to make her evilness "make sense", stealing pieces from the 4e cosmos (but not details)...

The Bahamut/Tiamat division makes some sense. Imagine there was a being who was the creator of all dragons. A war was engaged, and that being was torn in two.

Bahamut and Tiamat formed out of the torn shreds of this greater god. In that same battle, the brood of the proto-god where destroyed in uncountable numbers -- an infinite host of dragons, dead.

After the battle, the torn halves of the greater god retreated and licked their wounds. Each took a different lesson from the conflict.

Bahamut went and encouraged his dragons to help the lesser races, even at personal sacrifice. No sacrifice was too great, no being too small.

As far as Bahamut is concerned, even the greatest of the Dragons should follow the example of the Dragon god, and toil, suffer and sacrifice for the good of even the lowest being.

Tiamat went and encouraged her dragons to rule over the lesser beings who, after all, owed them their very existence. No crime was too great, no demand over reaching.

As far as Tiamat was concerned, even the least of the Dragons deserved respect and adulation from even the greater being -- for they didn't sacrifice themselves like Dragon god did.

Rebellion and war followed. Bahamut disagreed with Tiamat's rule and tyranny, and Tiamat considered Bahamuts actions to be snivelling.

Bahamut won. Peoples rebelled and freed themselves from Draconic oppression. Tiamat's constant demands for "proper" respect grew thin from other gods.

And Tiamat is pissed.

Tiamat is the demanding of respect that was earned from sacrifice, but not given.
Bahamut is the demanding of sacrifice that is given, but not earned.

The two are halves of the same being, who sacrificed itself for the safety of the very cosmos.

Now, convince Tiamat that she should be "good".

She has an eternity of being snubbed for demanding her rightful due, which as far as she is concerned is unlimited by any constraint.

[Set]

Tiamat, either in the ancient Babylonian lore, or in the game presentations, has been an oppositional diety. Whether her ancient enemy is Marduk or Bahamut, she's been defined by opposition to her foe.

If something happens to that foe, her 'raison d'etre' suffers a blow. Suddenly, she's the god of *all* dragonkind, and while one of her red or white worshippers might just expect her to chirpily slaughter the golds, silvers, etc, it's possible that the loss of her ancient enemy would fill her with a sense of purposelessness. It's possible that Bahamut, being the sort of fellow he is, would die in accordance with his own beliefs, and Tiamat might mock and scorn his sacrifice, at first, only realizing later that he escaped their endless war, that neither of them seemed fated to win. Cheated of any chance of winning, she might rage against the dead rival, at first, and come to wonder what could possibly have been so important that he would give up his immortal existence to stop it / preserve it.

And so she would investigate, and learn things that she was not aware of previously, or, more to the point, things that she never cared to know, previously. Perhaps there is some greater threat, not just to the forces of good, but to all life, and she begrudgingly finds herself carrying on her hated foes mission, at first rationalizing it to herself that she *has* to defend the world, since she can't conquer it if all living things, incluing her dragon followers, are wiped out.

And as she begins fighting, some of Bahamut's old retainers end up fighting on her side, also out of sheer practicality, and as she finds her own red, white, etc. followers growing more and more alarmed by the positions she is taking, she is finding that the quiet acceptance and selfless loyalty she is receiving from the golds, silvers, etc. is confusing, troubling and, at times, very welcome, after a lifetime of knowing that every single individual that calls itself her ally or follower is only out for themselves, and would pounce if she were to appear weak. Insane jealousy would crop up, that Bahamut's followers were so darned *nice,* and never plotted against him, or twisted the words of his edicts for their own profit, as if, even in death, he taunts her with how he ended up with the only followers worth having...

It wouldn't happen overnight, but I could see Tiamat finding herself fighting the good fight, and being downright grouchy about it!

[Mystic Muse]

now see THIS is EXACTLY why I decided to post here. people have VERY good ideas that to a lot of players would be downright LOGICAL.

I like the Bahamut dying part. that would make the campaign a little more interesting.

and the 4th edition ideas don't work well. in that case Tiamat is INHERENTLY evil and not so much by choice. my background is that each of the gods chooses to be the alignment they are. some evil gods are misinformed and so are some good. evil isn't always the one that's mistaken.

and Lapak that is ALSO an interesting campaign idea. the only problem is the players would have to REALLY like chromatic dragons and Tiamat for that to work. unless the whole campaign was built around the idea. but the idea is completely viable.

okay. no more ideas. too many and I'll get overwhelmed and never be able to decide!

[Teln]

Who says you can't use the rejected ideas in a different campaign? I say keep 'em coming!

[Malanthyus]

Not the same situation, different gods and all that, but one variation, Loth actually started out chaotic neutral, and went by the name of Arunshee...

[Yakk]

now see THIS is EXACTLY why I decided to post here. people have VERY good ideas that to a lot of players would be downright LOGICAL.

I like the Bahamut dying part. that would make the campaign a little more interesting.*nod*, agreed!

and the 4th edition ideas don't work well. in that case Tiamat is INHERENTLY evil and not so much by choice. my background is that each of the gods chooses to be the alignment they are. some evil gods are misinformed and so are some good. evil isn't always the one that's mistaken.I didn't think I said inherently in my post. Tiamat is just the part of the torn dragon-god who wants the respect she deserves. Which happens to be (nigh) unlimited.

Neither half is inherently more evil than the others. They just chose different paths.

Both are justified. I mean, Tiamat saved the universe, and now the puny lesser beings aren't willing to live as servants under her progeny? That's gratitude for you!

[paddyfool]

It would make it easier if you were willing to share your reasons for wanting her to turn good... right now, I'm pretty anti the whole concept. The only fix to make it work is the whole "Io's dead, Bahamut's dead, and the dragons need a single deity" which would be more likely to end up with her being LN if anything.

[Lapak]

and Lapak that is ALSO an interesting campaign idea. the only problem is the players would have to REALLY like chromatic dragons and Tiamat for that to work. unless the whole campaign was built around the idea. but the idea is completely viable.They don't have to like them that much; causing the evil half of dragonkind to shift to neutral-on-average would be a pretty massive blow for the forces of Good. Or, depending on the background of the PCs themselves, they might simply be horrified at the idea of sentient beings that are not evil except through this external bondage - it could trigger a crisis of faith in a noble Paladin to know that her god allowed this state of affairs to continue, and she might decide that the only way to set matters right is to step in where her god was unwilling. Or they might NEED the chromatics - or Tiamat - for some specific purpose. Or they might be evil, and hope to absorb the corruption for themselves in order to become new evil gods. PCs might have a lot of reasons for doing it!

EDIT: Almost any reasonable idea IS going to be campaign-sized; the idea that a major god would flip alignments for any trivial reason would smack of fiat. At that point you might just as well say 'Tiamat has had a change of heart and is good from here on out.' :smallwink:

[Set]

They don't have to like them that much; causing the evil half of dragonkind to shift to neutral-on-average would be a pretty massive blow for the forces of Good. Or, depending on the background of the PCs themselves, they might simply be horrified at the idea of sentient beings that are not evil except through this external bondage - it could trigger a crisis of faith in a noble Paladin to know that her god allowed this state of affairs to continue, and she might decide that the only way to set matters right is to step in where her god was unwilling.

And to flip this on it's ear, what if a couple of prominent golds and silvers become disillusioned with the death of Bahamut and turn neutral (or worse)? The good-aligned faiths might get the idea that, like Celestials, their metallic dragon allies never *chose* to be good, but where made that way, and never truly had the freedom to be otherwise, until now... Suddenly, not just their enemies, but their trusted allies turn out to have been virtual slaves, bound by previously immutable natures to 'do the right thing,' but never 'for the right reasons...'


EDIT: Almost any reasonable idea IS going to be campaign-sized; the idea that a major god would flip alignments for any trivial reason would smack of fiat. At that point you might just as well say 'Tiamat has had a change of heart and is good from here on out.' :smallwink:

Ideally, PCs would never have the slightest idea whether or not a god even has an alignment, let alone has changed it. It's not like any mortal has ever snuck up on Tiamat (or Bahamut) and cast Detect Evil (or Good). Tiamat's actions, and those of the followers who have begun to follow her new directives and mandates, may puzzle the heck out of good-aligned folk used to her cults and dragons doing wicked things, and now suddenly showing up to defend communities (in the case of formerly hidden cults, interwoven into society behind closed doors, they might even rise up *within* a community that had no idea that their neighbors had an altar to the dragon queen in the basement and held monthly services in secret while the rest of the community slept!) or protect particular individuals.

IMO, the best bet is to have Tiamat remain Tiamat. She may be fighting alongside angels, to protect the world, but it's not because she's filled with the milk of human kindness all of a sudden. This world, and everything in it, is rightfully hers, part of a metaphysical hoard of treasure that, in her egomaniacal mind, already belongs to her, in spirit, if not always in fact. It is her birthright and her destiny to own this world. She might start out from this mental stance, dispatching her forces to protect where they once ravaged, rationalizing to herself that only *she* gets to decide to destroy the little things (and people) who 'belong to her.' As individuals, of power or destiny, come under her 'protection,' due to her own desire to fight back whatever force threatens 'her world,' she may end up becoming more aware of them as individuals, not just as puzzle pieces that need to be preserved for a later move in whatever great strategem is in play. The less she thinks of them as 'things,' and the more as 'people,' the more she finds herself to discipline the unruly reds and whites and blacks she used to regard with such pride, the more she would begin to empathize with the sorts of beings she once held in contempt, and to lose patience with the sorts of selfish, petty, venal and destructive traits that she once regarded as the priviledges of her station.

The first time she finds herself forced to strike down a dragon, a former follower no less, to protect a human community that is 'more important' to the great cause (because they have a school of research that is beginning to solve the mystery of the Far Realms invaders or the planar breakdown or whatever), it could mark a near psychotic break from her past life.