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Kobold-Bard
2009-06-11, 05:59 PM
I have seen them mentioned with much hatred. What are they, where are they from, and why are they so loathed?

I don't want to play one (I'm trying to break the optimizing habit, but I'm too scared to go cold turkey) I'm just curious.

Riffington
2009-06-11, 06:06 PM
I have seen them mentioned with much hatred. What are they, where are they from, and why are they so loathed?

I don't want to play one (I'm trying to break the optimizing habit, but I'm too scared to go cold turkey) I'm just curious.

If you twist your mind just right, you can pretend they get all the mental stat bonuses for venerable age without incurring any physical penalties. After this contortion, your mind will imagine they then count as ancient dragons, and may take epic feats at level 1.

mostlyharmful
2009-06-11, 06:20 PM
Dragonwrought is a feat from races of the dragon that changes a kobolds type to Dragon at first level. From there you can get access to epic feats as has already been mentioned but also no end of other goodies based around Dragon add ons and subs that work just fine on a real dragon but get overpowered fast on a LA+0 critter... things like loredrake from dragons of ebberron or alter self forms or dragon prestige classes and items.... but mostly it's the epic feats at old+ and no ageing penalties to physical combined with aging benefits to mental stats which makes them some of the best casters ever.

The Glyphstone
2009-06-11, 06:24 PM
Specifically, they take advantage of an obscure rule in Draconomicon that states any True Dragon of at least Old age category can take Epic feats without being Epic. Kobolds use age categories like True Dragons, though much shorter. With Dragonwrought, the character's type changes to Dragon and counts as a True Dragon, as well as not suffering physical penalties for age. This lets a Dragonwrought Kobold start play as Old or older and legally take Epic feats.

RelentlessImp
2009-06-11, 06:56 PM
If you twist your mind just right, you can pretend they get all the mental stat bonuses for venerable age without incurring any physical penalties.

I'm not sure what 'twisting one's mind just right' has to do with it. Races of the Dragon, page 39, Kobold aging chart, has text that specifically states that "ability penalties due to age don't apply to Dragonwrought Kobolds".

Kellus
2009-06-11, 07:04 PM
It does unfortunately seem perfectly legal, but I've seen way too many ways to abuse it. I'm honestly not entirely sure WHAT the designers intended with it, since pretty much lots of the abuses are very obvious. Why specifically say that it doesn't take aging penalties if you didn't want people to make venerable characters all the time? It's like a feat that grants a permanent +3 bonus to three ability scores. Not to mention alter self. How could you NOT think of alter self?

ShadowFighter15
2009-06-11, 07:06 PM
The age stuff does seem a little stupid, but I don't see any way for a dragonwrought kobold to get epic feats just through age. In my mind, that only counts for true dragons and I don't think kobolds of any sort should count as true dragons.

quick_comment
2009-06-11, 07:07 PM
The age stuff does seem a little stupid, but I don't see any way for a dragonwrought kobold to get epic feats just through age. In my mind, that only counts for true dragons and I don't think kobolds of any sort should count as true dragons.

Another line in another book says anything with the dragon type and X number of age categories qualifies as a true dragon.

Aneantir
2009-06-11, 07:10 PM
The age stuff does seem a little stupid, but I don't see any way for a dragonwrought kobold to get epic feats just through age. In my mind, that only counts for true dragons and I don't think kobolds of any sort should count as true dragons.

This, while reasonable, encouraged, supported, and all of that good stuff, is not RAW. By RAW, it doesn't say anything about true dragons in the rule, it just says dragons, meaning dragonwraught kobolds qualify for it.

So, while any DM ever would be insane to allow it to work, by RAW it works.

Riffington
2009-06-11, 07:11 PM
I'm not sure what 'twisting one's mind just right' has to do with it. Races of the Dragon, page 39, Kobold aging chart, has text that specifically states that "ability penalties due to age don't apply to Dragonwrought Kobolds".

But you now have age categories like a dragon instead of like a human, and can thus never be venerable.

RelentlessImp
2009-06-11, 07:16 PM
...Except that no sane DM would ever really allow it. While it works, get it to fly in a game starting at first level. Or even 10th. Or even 20th. Sort of goes like this:

Player: Hey, here's my sheet.
DM: Thanks, let's take a look.
DM: ...
Player: What?
DM: How did you get epic feats at third level on?
Player: Oh, that. Dragonwrought lets me qualify as a dragon, and since I'm older than Old, I can take epic feats... what are you doing?
DM: I'm lighting this sheet on fire so that nobody can ever look upon this again. Go make something that doesn't make me have to roll a SAN check.

In a perfect world:
Player: Heh. Alright, sure. Thought it was worth a try.

In the real world:
Player: What!? Dude, this is all legal! You're a powerhungry DM! I'm never playing with you again! WAAAAAAAAAH!

RelentlessImp
2009-06-11, 07:19 PM
But you now have age categories like a dragon instead of like a human, and can thus never be venerable.

"Specific trumps general," I think, is the rule of thumb in situations like this. Since it mentions Dragonwrought Kobolds and aging penalties specifically, then they're an exception to the rule.

...Too bad it's so ambiguous in the way it's arranged that it goes either way, really...

Riffington
2009-06-11, 07:34 PM
"Specific trumps general," I think, is the rule of thumb in situations like this. Since it mentions Dragonwrought Kobolds and aging penalties specifically, then they're an exception to the rule.

...Too bad it's so ambiguous in the way it's arranged that it goes either way, really...

Sure, but it never mentions that they'd get aging bonuses, so there's no specific there to trump the general rule that dragons don't get human bonuses.
The explanation of why they don't get penalties for aging is "they don't get penalties because they don't fit into human age categories".

SoD
2009-06-11, 07:55 PM
Huh. Optomisers. There's one of my players where every character of his goes like this;

Me (DM): So, what's your character?
Him: It's a-
Me: You can't play it. It's too overpowered.
Him: You don't even know what I was going to play!
Me: Pun-pun?
Him: No!
Me: Cheesy Batman Wizard?
Him: No!
Me: That warforged of yours who's immune to damage?
Him: No!
Me: Your guy who one-shots ogres at level one without a lucky crit?
Him: No!
Me: Are you going to convince me to allow a Warlocks Eldritch Blast to count a spells for reserve feats?
Him: No!
Me: OK then. What are you playing?
Him: Uh, well, it's, uh...
Me: Am I going to approve it?
Him: ...no.

RelentlessImp
2009-06-11, 07:59 PM
Sure, but it never mentions that they'd get aging bonuses, so there's no specific there to trump the general rule that dragons don't get human bonuses.
The explanation of why they don't get penalties for aging is "they don't get penalties because they don't fit into human age categories".

Then why bring it up at all? Why even have a Middle Age/Old/Venerable age chart, anyway? All Kobolds use the Dragon Category aging chart. Same page of Races of the Dragon.



Once hatched, kobolds mature at a breakneck pace, using
the same life cycle as dragons, but only living one-tenth
as long. By the time a kobold reaches the age of eight or
nine (on average), she is mentally and physically able to
assist her tribe in any capacity.


Which means the Wyrmling, Very Young, Young, etc is used by all kobolds, not just Dragonwrought - and then they have a separate chart showing more 'normal' age categories. Could it be that they intended for kobolds to use both charts at the same time? With the reading of it, one would think so.

Aneantir
2009-06-11, 08:06 PM
Me: Cheesy Batman Wizard?

Nitpick: Theres nothing cheesy about a Batman Wizard. All a batman wizard is is someone who uses their spells effectively so that them and their allies aquire the most benefit from them.

pingcode20
2009-06-11, 08:15 PM
Nitpick: Theres nothing cheesy about a Batman Wizard. All a batman wizard is is someone who uses their spells effectively so that them and their allies aquire the most benefit from them.

It was qualified with a 'cheesy', though. Obviously if it had been just a normal batman wizard, no cheese, it'd have been just fine. :smallwink:

---

I'm pretty sure mechanically Kobolds are supposed to follow the standard Child/Adult/Middle Age/Old/Venerable/Dead aging progression - reasonable interpretation of RAW says that there wouldn't be any point in putting in the age categories with modifiers if kobolds weren't subject to them like anything else. The Dragonwrought feat backs this up, referring to age category penalties.

Although I agree that the Epic Feats thing is just plain silly. A fairly serious oversight, given that they seem to have drawn from the Draconomicon to begin with (their 'Draconic Lexicon' is basically an updated one from the one in the Draconomicon in the first place.)

Taking just Dragonwrought and not abusing the aging rules probably won't make anybody blink an eyelid, though. Middle Aged Dragonwrought might raise a few eyelids, but if you've got a bunch of odd stats, it might be passable. Venerable Dragonwrought in anything but high level play is just asking to be shot down.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-06-11, 08:56 PM
Huh. Optomisers. There's one of my players where every character of his goes like this;

Me (DM): So, what's your character?
Him: It's a-
Me: You can't play it. It's too overpowered.
Him: You don't even know what I was going to play!
Me: Pun-pun?
Him: No!
Me: Cheesy Batman Wizard?
Him: No!
Me: That warforged of yours who's immune to damage?
Him: No!
Me: Your guy who one-shots ogres at level one without a lucky crit?
Him: No!
Me: Are you going to convince me to allow a Warlocks Eldritch Blast to count a spells for reserve feats?
Him: No!
Me: OK then. What are you playing?
Him: Uh, well, it's, uh...
Me: Am I going to approve it?
Him: ...no.

You forgot about the 1st level fat guy who jumps on people for 20d6 damage, no save no attack roll. (Psychic Warrior 1, Expansion, Up the Walls, falling object rules DMG p303)

JellyPooga
2009-06-11, 09:05 PM
The implied balance of the Feat, though it is by no means spelled out or supported by written text, is that a Venerable 1st level Dragonwrought Kobold simply does not exist! By their very nature, a Dragonwrought Kobold is destined for greatness; it is thrust upon them by their birthright. Their life will be filled with peril, from bitter rivals as a wyrmling to the trials and tribulations of being a living embodiment of everything Kobold culture stands for. They are Heroes of their tribe by definition and will be expected to live up to that staus. By the time a Dragonwrought Kobold reaches Venerable age (if he even lives that long), he is almost guaranteed to have reached the upper echelons of pre-epic levels at the very least.

Yes it is a powerful feat for a game that rivals the great epics, spanning the lifetime of the Player Characters, but for normal play it is not so broken really, so long as you actually use a little sense in what abilities will be available to a given character; a feral Barbarian raised by wolves who has only just come into contact with other members of his own species simply could not have access to a Feat like Skill Focus (Decipher Script). As a DM, I would be well within my rights to flat out refuse such a selection on the basis that said Barbarian doesn't even know how to read, let alone decipher complex literature. Similarly with Dragonwrought and age; a Venerable Dragonwrought is, by definition very high level, possibly even Epic levels. Any player coming to me with a 1st level Venerable Dragonwrought would simply be laughed out of my game until they learned to roleplay.

Kobold-Bard
2009-06-12, 05:21 AM
Thanks all, I was mainly curious about the whole "Epic feats a level 1" thing.

Now all I need is a gullible DM and...STIOP IT!! <Slaps self>

Sorry, optimizing is a hard addiction to break.

Riffington
2009-06-12, 06:16 AM
a feral Barbarian raised by wolves who has only just come into contact with other members of his own species simply could not have access to a Feat like Skill Focus (Decipher Script). As a DM, I would be well within my rights to flat out refuse such a selection on the basis that said Barbarian doesn't even know how to read, let alone decipher complex literature.

I think you should allow the feat, since feats can represent an innate talent rather than any sort of study. Definitely disallow him from allocating ranks there at this time. However, I think it's reasonable that he might have that knack which has just been completely unrealized to date; when he finally comes into contact with letters, he'll feel a special affinity for them, and at that point be permitted to take ranks in the skill.

RelentlessImp
2009-06-12, 06:22 AM
The implied balance of the Feat, though it is by no means spelled out or supported by written text, is that a Venerable 1st level Dragonwrought Kobold simply does not exist! By their very nature, a Dragonwrought Kobold is destined for greatness; it is thrust upon them by their birthright. Their life will be filled with peril, from bitter rivals as a wyrmling to the trials and tribulations of being a living embodiment of everything Kobold culture stands for. They are Heroes of their tribe by definition and will be expected to live up to that staus. By the time a Dragonwrought Kobold reaches Venerable age (if he even lives that long), he is almost guaranteed to have reached the upper echelons of pre-epic levels at the very least.

Yes it is a powerful feat for a game that rivals the great epics, spanning the lifetime of the Player Characters, but for normal play it is not so broken really, so long as you actually use a little sense in what abilities will be available to a given character; a feral Barbarian raised by wolves who has only just come into contact with other members of his own species simply could not have access to a Feat like Skill Focus (Decipher Script). As a DM, I would be well within my rights to flat out refuse such a selection on the basis that said Barbarian doesn't even know how to read, let alone decipher complex literature. Similarly with Dragonwrought and age; a Venerable Dragonwrought is, by definition very high level, possibly even Epic levels. Any player coming to me with a 1st level Venerable Dragonwrought would simply be laughed out of my game until they learned to roleplay.

This is another example of the Stormwind Fallacy. First, I'd like to link you to a pretty decent example of where Old+ characters can start at first level.

Goblins! Life Through Their Eyes (http://www.goblinscomic.com)

First, if you don't feel like reading it, let me explain; goblins, tired of being attacked by adventurers, decide to become 1st level adventurers and level up to protect their tribe. Among those is Thaco, an elderly goblin who becomes a 1st level Monk.

Despite the comic's 4th-wall-breaking nature (they use terms like 'character level' and 'class'), Thaco is a good representation of someone who wants to play an older character at 1st level.

Second, if you're going to disallow old characters at first level, you're limiting your player's options. Obviously, if they're doing it just for the stat bonuses with no roleplaying to back it up, fine, laugh at it, veto it and tell them to come up with another character. But, if they've got a decent backstory to go along with it, what's the harm? Just don't let them take Epic feats by virtue of Dragonwrought+Old age.

Adumbration
2009-06-12, 06:31 AM
What the guy above me said. I can think of several valid reasons why an old, dragonwrought 1st level character would become an adventurer. For an example, a wyrmling real dragon might easily usurp the kobold's position as the spiritual leader - especially if the dragon is evil-aligned, and the kobold good.

JellyPooga
2009-06-12, 07:42 AM
@Riffington:

Yeah, I guess, but you get the point (example notwithstanding).

@Relentless Imp and Adumbration:

I've nothing against a older 1st level characters as a rule...just specifically older 1st level Dragonwrought Kobolds. Even if a real dragon is present to take a leadership role, a Dragonwrought Kobold will still be venerated, perhaps even more so than the dragon by some of the tribe as he is closer to the populace than the dragon is (who I'd imagine as being somewhat remote and disdaining, whilst the Dragonwrought is understanding and sympathetic). To some, he may represent a kind of Robin Hood figure; a champion of the people. In fact, I would even go so far as to posit that a Dragonwrought Kobold in a tribe that is led by a True Dragon would have an even harder time of living to old age than one where there isn't; the threat he poses in his position as a 'missing link' between Dragons and Kobolds (so to speak) would mean he becomes a target for the dragon. Though the dragon would be unlikely to outright kill him off (unless it's particularly evil) due to the political implications of potentially martyring him, he would still have to deal with constant threat or even exile (which, for a kobold, is practically being forced into the adventuring profession...and who gains levels faster than anyone else?).

You might, might, get away with a low-level middle aged Dragonwrought Kobold if you came up with a good reason for it, but short of something mind-blowing or contrived (like he's spent his entire life in a cell and only recently escaped), I just cannot see a Dragonwrought Kobolds life being anything short of highly perilous for one reason or another and as such any such kobold that has somehow reached the lofty heights of Old or Venerable age is going to be something of a significant power in the world.

Don't get me wrong, if someone comes up with a good reason, then I'll allow more or less anything! It just has to be a very good reason if it falls outside the limits of what I consider possible.

P.S. I've read Goblins! and much like it! :smallbiggrin:

Adumbration
2009-06-12, 08:34 AM
Well, the way I figured it would go...

A venerable, good dragonwrought kobold is the current leader of the tribe. His heritage is in the metallic dragons. Someone finds an egg/a young dragon finds them - in my mind it's always a Black Dragon Wyrmling, thank you very much SoD :smallwink:. Of course, the kobold in question has reservations about it, but what can he do? To undermine the dragon is to undermine his own heritage. The dragon has a silver tongue, and is soon adored and worshipped by the tribe.

Then comes the rupture. The dragon demands something evil of the tribe - treasure for his hoard from nearby human farmers, for an example. What can the dragonwrought kobold do? To oppose the dragon would split the tribe - some, who are on the good side of neutral, would probably side with him. But the young, impetuous warriors?

The dragonwrought kobold sees 2 paths that will keep the tribe intact. Either he will stay, and ignore the evil deeds that the black dragon encourages, or he leaves in self-imposed exile. Regretfully, he chooses the latter option.

And so the venerable dragonwrought kobold leaves, and becomes an adventurer. And to address the level issue... High level characters are very rare indeed among kobolds. They trust in groups, not individuals. It is not a custom to hoard power - except for the dragon, of course, now.

MickJay
2009-06-12, 08:54 AM
Hmm, fine, so he's a leader - but how did he become one? People expect their leaders to do something, or at least show some exceptional qualities. In most campaigns, the tribe/village leader would be also the highest level npc (or at least one of the highest level npcs), even if those levels are in a non-pc class.

SoD
2009-06-12, 09:05 AM
Hmm, fine, so he's a leader - but how did he become one? People expect their leaders to do something, or at least show some exceptional qualities. In most campaigns, the tribe/village leader would be also the highest level npc (or at least one of the highest level npcs), even if those levels are in a non-pc class.

People as in humans? Or people as in people? What about Monarchies? The only reason someone is fit to rule is because Daddy did. I feel that, for kobolds at least, it's a perfectly good reason to say; "He's our leader because he's Dragonwrought." Maybe the actual decisions are made by a power behind the throne, dispite the general kobold population beleiving that it's their Dragonwrought guy weilding the power.

Adumbration
2009-06-12, 09:15 AM
People as in humans? Or people as in people? What about Monarchies? The only reason someone is fit to rule is because Daddy did. I feel that, for kobolds at least, it's a perfectly good reason to say; "He's our leader because he's Dragonwrought." Maybe the actual decisions are made by a power behind the throne, dispite the general kobold population beleiving that it's their Dragonwrought guy weilding the power.

Aye. Throw in the Dragon Wings feat, and they'd be hard pressed to deny his superior dragon heritage. In this case, this kobold is also a PC, which entails higher ability scores, and if the class is Sorcerer, he will also be very charismatic indeed.

And he wouldn't be born a leader, of course, but in time his superior ability scores, along with his dragon heritage would pretty much ensure a position of importance among the kobolds. Insert generic master-apprentice relationship between the older spellcaster in the tribe here.

MickJay
2009-06-12, 09:46 AM
True, but by the time he became venerable, he'd have already accomplished something; in other words, gained at least a few levels. If not, then I'd expect this remarkable indolence to be represented by abysmal CHA score and low mental stats. Even the laziest monarch would get a few Aristocrat levels by the time he became venerable, I'd expect nothing less from a Dragonwrought Kobold. On the other hand, if said Kobold had accomplished nothing during most of his life, I don't really think he'd be a suitable material for an adventurer (again, low stats, no will to do anything).

Adumbration
2009-06-12, 09:56 AM
True, but by the time he became venerable, he'd have already accomplished something; in other words, gained at least a few levels. If not, then I'd expect this remarkable indolence to be represented by abysmal CHA score and low mental stats. Even the laziest monarch would get a few Aristocrat levels by the time he became venerable, I'd expect nothing less from a Dragonwrought Kobold. On the other hand, if said Kobold had accomplished nothing during most of his life, I don't really think he'd be a suitable material for an adventurer (again, low stats, no will to do anything).

If the region is reasonably peaceful, and there are no major events, why should he level? There's a reason why there's no 20th level Commoners running around, no matter how many commoners make it to Venerable. The kobold tribe might live in peace with their neighbours due to the leader's influence. NPCs are people too. :smallwink:

Of course, someone might point out that this is all very contrived. But is it any more contrived than the Barbarian raised by the wolves in wilderness? How does someone like that learn how to speak, anyway?

MickJay
2009-06-12, 10:11 AM
Such barbarian wouldn't be playable, unless appropriate story about how he learned the basics of the life in society (not to mention speaking) was brought forward as well. Plus, it has little to do with the argument about Kobolds.

Killing things is not the only way of gaining exp, otherwise the only way for a commoner to level up would be to battle cockroaches and, if they felt bold enough, housecats :smallwink:

Bayar
2009-06-12, 10:14 AM
People as in humans? Or people as in people?

See, what you are saying is that kobolds, apparently, arent capable of having the same forms of political organisations as humans do. You are thinking that kobolds are stupid, or inferior to humans. Well, I'd like you to look at the kobold warrior in the Monster Manual. See any penalties to INT, WIS or CHA ? No ? then dont assume they are idiots. They have a thinking level that is AT LEAST on par with humans.


And he wouldn't be born a leader, of course, but in time his superior ability scores, along with his dragon heritage would pretty much ensure a position of importance among the kobolds. Insert generic master-apprentice relationship between the older spellcaster in the tribe here.

Actually, he WOULD BE born a leader. The council decides this with the current leader, they choose which wyrmlings look the most promicing to become key pillars of their community. Plus, if the current leader or an important figure died, they study the nursery, and the next kobold egg to be laid will be tended with extra care, and the kobold which comes out of it will be ensured the position of the deceased when the time comes. it is all about their belief in the reincarnation process.

JellyPooga
2009-06-12, 10:16 AM
If the region is reasonably peaceful, and there are no major events, why should he level? There's a reason why there's no 20th level Commoners running around, no matter how many commoners make it to Venerable. The kobold tribe might live in peace with their neighbours due to the leader's influence. NPCs are people too. :smallwink:

Of course, someone might point out that this is all very contrived. But is it any more contrived than the Barbarian raised by the wolves in wilderness? How does someone like that learn how to speak, anyway?

The point you seem to be missing (my apologies if you haven't) is that a Dragonwrought Kobold leads a charmed life. He can't be compared to a Human peasant or even your average nobles son, he's the kobold equivalent of the heir to the throne of a mighty empire. In a society that normally just throws everyone that doesn't show sorcerous talent into the mines to dig for precious metal and gems, a Dragonwrought is trained practically from birth to the best of the tribes ability (which is obviously dependant on the tribes age, size and resources). That training (most likely in the sorcerous arts) alone is probably enough to give a Dragonwrought Kobold a couple of levels by the time he's far past maturity. Even in times of peace and plenty, a Dragonwrought Kobold is a cut above any other Kobold of similar age.

For a spitball figure, I'd probably stat your average Dragonwrought at a minimum level equal to 2 plus 2 per age catagory above Young Adult (using their 'dragon' age catagories), which would give you something like

{table]Age Catagory|Level
Young Adult (Adulthood)|2
Adult|4
Mature Adult|6
Old|8
Yery Old|10
Ancient (Old)|12
Wyrm|14
Great Wyrm (Venerable)|16[/table]

This could be waived during, as you say, a time of peace and plenty, but I would probably only halve it at most, putting a Venerable Dragonwrought at a minimum level of 8 in my books.

RelentlessImp
2009-06-12, 11:11 AM
You're all missing something here.

Kobolds are kobolds are kobolds - they're either first level humanoids, first level warriors/experts/adepts, or, at best, first level fighters/sorcerers/rogues. They don't gain a lot of experience over the course of their lives - they're group-focused, and if a band of your average 6-person 1st level adventurers invades their warrens, if they win it's because of group tactics.

Group tactics. The experience for a 1st level character killing 6 1st level characters isn't much to begin with - but split between an entire tribe? If the Dragonwrought Kobold doesn't adventure at all, he'll be lucky to make it to level 2, much less level 3, by the time he's Venerable, with the experience rules as written.

A first-level character spends all their time living their life up until the point they become adventurers.

JellyPooga
2009-06-12, 11:38 AM
You're all missing something here.

Kobolds are kobolds are kobolds - they're either first level humanoids, first level warriors/experts/adepts, or, at best, first level fighters/sorcerers/rogues. They don't gain a lot of experience over the course of their lives - they're group-focused, and if a band of your average 6-person 1st level adventurers invades their warrens, if they win it's because of group tactics.

Group tactics. The experience for a 1st level character killing 6 1st level characters isn't much to begin with - but split between an entire tribe? If the Dragonwrought Kobold doesn't adventure at all, he'll be lucky to make it to level 2, much less level 3, by the time he's Venerable, with the experience rules as written.

Races of the Dragon begs to differ...from its hallowed pages I present "examples of typical kobolds encountered in a lair":

Edar - Kobold Expert 3
Ner - Kobold Warrior 6
Orn - Kobold Expert 5
Sjir, Crew Healer - Kobold Adept 4

Note, these are typical, i.e. "not uncommon", "everyday" or "average" examples. Sure, these are probably exceptional exmaples of average kobolds and most will be lower level, but it's not an uncommon occurance to have higher levelled NPCs as 'average joes' than Level 1.


A first-level character spends all their time living their life up until the point they become adventurers.

Not strictly true. A 1st level adventurer usually spends all their time living their life up until the point they become adventurers. NPCs follow slightly different "rules". A Commoner doesn't have to "adventure" to gain levels in Commoner; he just has to get better at his job. As such, an Old 1st level Commoner is going to be a rarity because he'd have to be a really bad farmer (for example) not to have gained the knowledge and skills that a higher level Commoner would have gained. Likewise with the other NPC classes; an old Warrior, even if he never progresses beyond Private in his local guard is going to be more experienced than any green recruit...this is represented by his having a higher level, despite the fact that he's never adventured and done all his thief-catching as part of a patrol (so his XP is shared).

There is a reason why the PHB actually lists a recommended starting age for adventurers; it's because older characters, no matter their profession, are supposed to be higher level, whilst the PHB assumes that characters are going to start at level 1. That's why XP is called "experience"...it's what comes with age and practice, not just killing monsters and disarming traps.

RelentlessImp
2009-06-12, 02:01 PM
You're making your case with NPC classes when my example was intended to outline PC classes, which are two very different beasts, both mechanically and flavor-wise.

A Kobold Expert 3 is no match for a PC Rogue 1 - unless he catches the Rogue flat-footed and smears him all over the cavern with sneak-attack. But a Kobold Expert's going to have lower stats than any PC Rogue, and as such, lower Hide, Move Silently, Spot and Listen skills. The Rogue (especially if he's the party's skillmonkey) is going to probably have a higher Wisdom and Dexterity score, so his 4 ranks to the Kobold's potential 6 give him the edge.

In straight combat, I'll put my money on the PC Rogue, who will probably also win Initiative.

Same for an Expert 5 and a Rogue 3.
The Warrior 6 vs a lower-leveled Fighter is kind of a toss-up; the Fighter will most likely have better equipment than a 6th-level Warrior by the time he's 3rd or 4th level (Player WBL scales much better than NPC WBL). I'll still put my money on the Fighter, since most PC Fighters are STR-based, while the existance of a Kobold Warrior necessitates a Dex-based fighter. And STR-based fighting scales better than DEX-based AC.

An Adept 4 vs a Level 2 Cleric. Go Cleric. No contest. Even a Cloistered Cleric would smear the Kobold all over the wall.

My point is, NPC classes present, by their very nature, less-trained and less-capable individuals than PC classes. A Kobold can live their entire lives as an Adept, and probably never rise above 4th-5th level.

The moment they become adventurers, those 4-5 levels become 1-2 levels of Wizard, Cleric, or Sorcerer. It's that much of a difference, power-wise. Though an Adept 20 becoming a 1st level Wizard/Cleric/Sorcerer is kind of hard to swallow - even with the power gap between Adept and PC spellcasting classes. But like I said, NPC leveling rates aren't fixed, and unlikely (except in the case of a BBEG).

only1doug
2009-06-12, 02:26 PM
Aye. Throw in the Dragon Wings feat, and they'd be hard pressed to deny his superior dragon heritage. In this case, this kobold is also a PC, which entails higher ability scores, and if the class is Sorcerer, he will also be very charismatic indeed.

And he wouldn't be born a leader, of course, but in time his superior ability scores, along with his dragon heritage would pretty much ensure a position of importance among the kobolds. Insert generic master-apprentice relationship between the older spellcaster in the tribe here.

I created a dragonwrought kobold sorcerer with dragon wings and PRC'd into dragonhearted mage (flew around breathing fire), my GM didn't object at all (but then I didn't cheese the age categories at all).

Great fun to play, and the rest of the group enjoyed him too, until he was con drained by undead to 0 hp. (hit twice for 1d6 con damage, rolls 5,6) 14 con -11= severe con penalty = no HP left.

Bayar
2009-06-12, 02:48 PM
You're making your case with NPC classes when my example was intended to outline PC classes, which are two very different beasts, both mechanically and flavor-wise.

A Kobold Expert 3 is no match for a PC Rogue 1 - unless he catches the Rogue flat-footed and smears him all over the cavern with sneak-attack. But a Kobold Expert's going to have lower stats than any PC Rogue, and as such, lower Hide, Move Silently, Spot and Listen skills. The Rogue (especially if he's the party's skillmonkey) is going to probably have a higher Wisdom and Dexterity score, so his 4 ranks to the Kobold's potential 6 give him the edge.

In straight combat, I'll put my money on the PC Rogue, who will probably also win Initiative.

Same for an Expert 5 and a Rogue 3.
The Warrior 6 vs a lower-leveled Fighter is kind of a toss-up; the Fighter will most likely have better equipment than a 6th-level Warrior by the time he's 3rd or 4th level (Player WBL scales much better than NPC WBL). I'll still put my money on the Fighter, since most PC Fighters are STR-based, while the existance of a Kobold Warrior necessitates a Dex-based fighter. And STR-based fighting scales better than DEX-based AC.

An Adept 4 vs a Level 2 Cleric. Go Cleric. No contest. Even a Cloistered Cleric would smear the Kobold all over the wall.

My point is, NPC classes present, by their very nature, less-trained and less-capable individuals than PC classes. A Kobold can live their entire lives as an Adept, and probably never rise above 4th-5th level.

The moment they become adventurers, those 4-5 levels become 1-2 levels of Wizard, Cleric, or Sorcerer. It's that much of a difference, power-wise. Though an Adept 20 becoming a 1st level Wizard/Cleric/Sorcerer is kind of hard to swallow - even with the power gap between Adept and PC spellcasting classes. But like I said, NPC leveling rates aren't fixed, and unlikely (except in the case of a BBEG).

See, kobolds are small size, so bonus hide. Racial skill bonuses. Slight build gives them a total size mod to hide of +8. Equal to a whisper gnome.

And dont come here saying stats are all. Anyone can make a kobold barbarian that can totally pwn someone's face bare handed.

JellyPooga
2009-06-12, 03:00 PM
stuff

Let's assume that (on average) 3 NPC levels are about equivalent to 1 PC level. Also assuming my spitball figures from my post before last applied only to NPC levels. That would still put an Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold at a minimum of level 5 at the start of his 'adventuring career' by my reckoning.

That is, however, assuming he has only taken NPC class levels. A Dragonwrought character (non-player or otherwise) is most likely, however, to have levels in Sorcerer. The Kobold favoured class of Sorcerer is much more than merely a predilication for sorcery; every Kobold has potent sorcerous potential (as demonstrated by the Rite of Draconic Passage), so among their population, almost anyone of political importance has Sorcerer training. If you consider the implications of just that single phrase "sorcerer training", you begin to understand the connection between Kobolds and that 'profession'. Now combine this with the fact that Dragonwrought Kobolds are pretty darned important, they will have training at least as good as that which produces a Sorcerer in Kobold society. Dragonwrought Kobolds are either PCs or BBGs...they pretty much get Elite array as standard and PC Class levels are the norm.

Yes, a Kobold could live their entire life and never rise above 5th level Adept, but a Dragonwrought Kobold never takes Adept levels at all; he just goes straight into Sorcerer from day one and get better from there.

Adumbration
2009-06-12, 03:10 PM
I just had a revelation: we're not arguing. I realized: we've already agreed on that a venerable Dragonwrought kobold as an adventurer is thematically viable. Now we are merely discussing at what level he should start. :smallsmile:

RelentlessImp
2009-06-12, 03:17 PM
It's good practice for when one of us wants to pull this on our DM - and good points for coming up with ways to refuse our players the same.

That said, anything can be justified with enough backstory; I'm just pointing out alternates.

I don't really have any counterpoints at the moment - except for how backstory makes even the implausible make sense.

JellyPooga
2009-06-12, 04:08 PM
...except for how backstory makes even the implausible make sense.

True dat.

Yeah, I got nothing against a Venerable Dragonwrought...it's just got to be at the right level :smalltongue: or, of course, with the right justification.

Zeful
2009-06-12, 04:18 PM
It's good practice for when one of us wants to pull this on our DM - and good points for coming up with ways to refuse our players the same.

That said, anything can be justified with enough backstory; I'm just pointing out alternates.

I don't really have any counterpoints at the moment - except for how backstory makes even the implausible make sense.

It's also good evidence for people like me to ban racial options/books from ever appearing at his games, without having to read them.

Thanks for that.

Kris Strife
2009-06-12, 05:08 PM
Justification: His tribe's lair was invaded by incorporeal, level draining undead. He protected his lesser brethren with his superior abilities, but was level drained down to level one before they escaped.

JellyPooga
2009-06-12, 05:12 PM
It's also good evidence for people like me to ban racial options/books from ever appearing at his games, without having to read them.

Thanks for that.

Do note that Dragonwrought Kobolds are not inherently brokenorz. Just having the Dragon type is not that big a boon; it's good, sure (when using Alter Self, for example), but not amazingly cheesy without Venerable gouda.

MickJay
2009-06-12, 06:30 PM
Yeah, but you can just bet that some munchkinish Kobold player will find a way to age his character with a spell or effect or something else and wham! instant venerable bonuses :smallbiggrin:

JellyPooga
2009-06-12, 06:42 PM
Yeah, but you can just bet that some munchkinish Kobold player will find a way to age his character with a spell or effect or something else and wham! instant venerable bonuses :smallbiggrin:

interestingly enough, since the advent of 3.X I do believe that aging effects are a thing of the past (sans GM intervention, of course). In AD&D, IIRC, they were all over the place, but seem to have been largely replaced by Negative Levels or nothing at all in more recent additions...a shame IMO as aging a year just to cast a spell always seemed to me to be a really good limiting factor for these Wizards and Clerics that are constantly hailed as being sooooo powerful....

MickJay
2009-06-12, 06:45 PM
Well, I was thinking specifically of Haste, I know 2nd edition rules better than 3rd. Did they really get rid of all aging effects? Maybe some cursed items or something?

JellyPooga
2009-06-12, 07:04 PM
Well, I was thinking specifically of Haste, I know 2nd edition rules better than 3rd. Did they really get rid of all aging effects? Maybe some cursed items or something?

As far as I know, yes, all aging effects are gone...about the only possible I can think of that still has an aging effect is the Deck of Many Things...but don't quote me on that...and that's an artifact (i.e. not appropriate for anything but the highest eschelons of play)

Bayar
2009-06-13, 02:41 AM
the Deck of Many Things...(i.e. not appropriate for anything)

Fixed it for you.

Realms of Chaos
2009-06-13, 02:04 PM
I see no reason whatsoever that a venerable dragonwrought kobold couldn't be 1st level.

If the kobold was born into a kobold community, the odds are that they would be chosen by their tribe's council to lead missions and more would be expected by them, meaning that they most likely would level by the time they reached venerable. If, say, dragonwrought kobolds are born with a .25% probability, large tribes will have one of them. That said, the strongest member of that tribe (according to the monster manual) is the 6th-8th level leader.

If, however, the dragonwrought kobold is raised in a human (or other tame humanoid) community (through some odd mishap), different circumstances emerge...

The Important Part:
While it has been argued that any dragonwrought kobold is destined for greatness, the fact is that such greatness isn't being actively pushed upon the kobold if they are raised away from other kobolds.
In fact, you could argue that the fact that they still have some more years left (Charisma score x 5 or 10) means that they can still accomplish their great destiny, even if they started in old age.
As the feat in and of itself provides little mechanical reason for a dragonwrought kobold to gain experience faster than others or to go and adventure, they have just as much a chance as anybody else to gain levels as they age.
IN SHORT, THE REAL QUESTION IS IF YOU WOULD ALLOW ANY 1ST LEVEL VENERABLE CHARACTERS AT ALL.

Yuki Akuma
2009-06-13, 02:08 PM
interestingly enough, since the advent of 3.X I do believe that aging effects are a thing of the past (sans GM intervention, of course). In AD&D, IIRC, they were all over the place, but seem to have been largely replaced by Negative Levels or nothing at all in more recent additions...a shame IMO as aging a year just to cast a spell always seemed to me to be a really good limiting factor for these Wizards and Clerics that are constantly hailed as being sooooo powerful....

So the best way to nerf wizards is to give them free bonuses to their casting stats and penalties to the stats they really don't care about at all?

Yes, that makes lots of sense.

JellyPooga
2009-06-13, 02:40 PM
So the best way to nerf wizards is to give them free bonuses to their casting stats and penalties to the stats they really don't care about at all?

Yes, that makes lots of sense.

Whilst technically true, it does rather make wizards and clerics that cast those spells a lot something of a supernova...very high output but it burns out pretty quickly. Say, for instance, said wizard casts a spell that ages him one year 3 times a week. If he starts doing this when he's 20 years old, he'll be Middle Aged in just over a month, Old 6 weeks later, Venerable another month and a half down the line and dead inside of 2 months (3 at the most). His lifespan just went from somewhere in the region of another 70 years to about 7 months at the most. Better hope it's a short campaign...

ChaosDefender24
2009-06-13, 02:45 PM
I'd allow Venerable Dragonwrought Kobolds in my games. The stats are imbal, but since when are you going to need Int, Wis, AND Cha in a single build, that doesn't involve partially charged wands? More importantly, you LOSE a feat.

Cheesewrought Instabold (the term used for Venerable Dragonwroughts who take epic feats pre-epic), however, is absolutely disgusting.

Dragonwrought Kobolds can make lulzy NPC's however, between dracolich and soul eater.

Eldariel
2009-06-13, 02:49 PM
Do note that Dragonwrought Kobolds are not inherently brokenorz. Just having the Dragon type is not that big a boon; it's good, sure (when using Alter Self, for example), but not amazingly cheesy without Venerable gouda.

Even then, it's merely "fair", because Kobolds have such massive penalties to physical stats and few classes can truly make use of having all high mentals. There's nothing that bad about Venerable either; one feat and taking -4 Str + -2 Con are a fair cost for +3 to mentals.

Now, it becomes stronger than the other races when you start to apply the other Dragon-rules to Dragonwrought (such as the ability to take Loredrake or the ability to take [Epic] feats on level 1). Don't allow those, allow only the free aging. He won't be breaking any games, but he will be a stronger sorcerer than average, as he should be.

Riffington
2009-06-13, 02:57 PM
IN SHORT, THE REAL QUESTION IS IF YOU WOULD ALLOW ANY 1ST LEVEL VENERABLE CHARACTERS AT ALL.

I would, but only because I changed the aging tables.
Middle Aged: -1 Con/Dex.
Old: -1 Str/Dex/Con/Int.
Venerable: -1 Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha

RelentlessImp
2009-06-13, 03:06 PM
So, basically, live fast, die young, leave a good-looking corpse, Riffington?