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Belial_the_Leveler
2009-06-11, 06:04 PM
OK, this is one of the ancient vampires in my campaign setting that I've been thinking of using as a boss in an epic campaign. What would you use to kill it, barring obvious cheese that would not fly in a normal game or epic spells?

Note: the sheet is long.


Watcher of the North
nephilim savage vampire lord, epic vampire 5 // Monk 2, Warlock 25
Size/Type: Medium Undead (extraplanar, chaos, powerful build)
Hit Dice: 27d12+459+27 (810 hp)
Initiative: +29 (12 dex, +13 divine, improved initiative)
Speed: 80 ft, fly 100 ft (perfect)
Armor Class: 67 (+12 Dex, +22 natural, +10 monk, +13 divine), touch 45, +1 to dodge target
Base Attack/Grapple: +31/+61
Attack: Claw +58 melee (4d6+39 plus 3 negative levels, 15-20/3x)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: vampire attacks, lvl 2 monk attacks, lvl 25 warlock attacks (see below)
Special Qualities: undead traits, vampire traits, monk traits, warlock traits (see below), divine ancestry
Saves: Fort +44, Ref +55, Will +53 (plus evasion)
Abilities: Str 62, Dex 35, Con Ø, Int 22, Wis 30, Cha 45
Racial Skills: +16 Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot, +8 Search, +8 Intimidate, +4 Diplomacy
Feats: Extra Invocation 4x, Supernatural Eldritch Blast, Supernatural The Dead Walk, Ability Focus: Eldritch Blast, Improved Energy Drain
Bonus Feats: Awesome Blow, Greater Awesome Blow, Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack, Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, Leadership, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Deflect Arrows, Shattering Strike, Cleave
Flaws/Feats: Bloodlust/Thick Skin, Clumsy/Thick Skin, Weak Will/Thick Skin, Inattentive/Thick Skin, Savage/Thick Skin
Epic Feats: Exceptional Deflection, Infinite Deflection, Eldritch Sculptor, Shadowmaster, Lightning Blows 3x
Challenge Rating: 27 gestalt
Treasure: None
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral

Divine Ancestry:
The creature gains a divine bonus to attack, all damage rolls, saves, AC and any other d20 roll or check. The creature has maximum hp, is immune to antimagic and ability damage/drain, its speed doubles and gets +10 resistance to all energy types that stacks. These bonuses replace-and do not stack with-bonuses from items. The creature still benefits from weapon enhancements in the weapons it wields that don't increase attack rolls.

Nephilim Abilities:
Counts as Large for bonuses, Awesome Blow, Greater Awesome Blow.
Spell Resistance 13+HD, Immune to Acid, DR increases by 5 and adds law component.

Vampire Lord Abilities:
The Watcher of the North is an ancient vampire and has the following powers;
Blood Drain: As per normal vampire only the Watcher does 1d4+2 constitution drain.
Energy Drain: The Watcher's claw attacks deal 3 negative levels per attack.
Dread Visage of the Lilim: This ability replaces a vampire lord's normal Dominate ability;
As a swift action, the Watcher may reshape its face into a demonically twisted skeletal visage while its fingers turn into two-foot scythe-like claws. Anyone seeing the Watcher in that form must make a DC 40 will save or cower in terror for 1 minute. A creature that makes the save does not have to save again for 24 hours.
With its empty, demonic gaze, the Watcher can bestow a Greater Curse as an at will standard action to a single target within 100 ft.
The claws deal 4d6 damage and can be used instead of the Watcher's unarmed strikes. This improvement already counts as an Improved Natural Attack and cannot be improved further by taking said feat again.
Dark Lord: The Watcher can bind lesser vampires to itself; if a vampire imbimes the Watcher's blood, it must make a DC 40 will save. Failure means the Watcher can now telepathically communicate with the vampire, read its thoughts or perceive the world through its senses over any distance. In addition, the Watcher may attempt Suggestion and Modify Memory if the target is within line of sight (will DC 40 negates) and may share its Fast Healing, Turn Resistance and Flight with any number of bound vampires within 1 mile.
This ability replaces a vampire lord's wildshaping as a 12th level druid;
Flight: The Watcher has a 100 ft (perfect) fly speed. (doubled for divine ancestry)
Unholy Resilience: The Watcher gets its charisma modifier as a bonus to all saving throws and hp per HD. (improved for epic vampire)
Children of the Grave: As per Children of the Night, only the Watcher calls human zombies instead of wolves, can communicate telepathically and share senses to any distance and the creatures serve until released or destroyed.
Create Spawn: As per vampire only the Watcher always creates true vampires, never vampire spawn.
Banish the Light: The Watcher can diminish all light (including sunlight) down to total darkness within 3 miles. The change happens gradually over 10 minutes and lasts for 24 hours.
The Watcher's at will gaseous form ability appears as a patch of shadow rather than the normal cloud of mist of a vampire's gaseous form.
The Watcher can cast Deeper Darkness at will.
These abilities replace the normal Control Weather, Obscuring Mist and Gaseous Form of a vampire lord.
Damage Reduction: DR 25/silver, magic, good and law (improved for epic vampire, nephilim and feats.
Fast Healing: Fast Healing 13 (improved for epic vampire)
Telekinesis: as the spell, cast by a 12th level caster.
Telepathy: 100 ft telepathy and with any spawn or bound vampire over any distance.
Turn Resistance: +12 turn resistance (improved for epic vampire)
Weaknesses: The Watcher has only one of the normal vampire weaknesses-sunlight-but even that is reduced; the Watcher is not destroyed; it simply takes -4 to ability scores and all checks and may not use its supernatural vampire abilities while it stands in direct sunlight.
The Watcher may hide its vampiric nature, appearing perfectly human. It may cast reflections normally.
Finally, decapitation or destruction of the body is only a temporary inconvenience; the Watcher regenerates with the fall of a new night. The only way to prevent this is to burn the head and body in different fires, concencrate the ashes, bury the ashes of the head in holy ground and scatter the ashes of the rest over a body of salt water. Even then, should the ashes of the head ever be unconcencrated, the Watcher will live once more.

Epic Vampire:
The Watcher has the following supernatural abilities. Saving throws are 10 +1/2 HD + charisma modifier;
Bloodrage: When the Watcher falls below 1/3 HP or when an ally or friend is similarly wounded or slain, the Watcher enters a terrible rage similar to a Barbarian's; its strength bonus to damage doubles and every attack is automatically a shattering strike and a greater mighty blow but the Watcher takes a -4 penalty to attack rolls and loses its dexterity bonus to AC. The Watcher can't die and continues fighting while raging; additional damage beyond being reduced to 0 HP is added as negative HP. Once the bloodrage ends, if the Watcher is still at 0 HP or below, it is forced into gaseous form as normal. The Watcher may neither initiate nor end Bloodrage willingly; once all enemies have been slain, the Watcher attacks the closest living creature, including allies, innocent bystanders and animals. The bloodrage lasts for 1 round/HD of the Watcher (27 rounds) and ends prematurely only if the Watcher harms a trusted friend or family.
In addition to the rage, the watcher gains the Cleave and Shattering Strike feats which it can use normally.
Breath of Beliar: As a standard action, the Watcher can drain the souls of nearby creatures. Any creature within a 60 ft cone is affected by the Watcher's energy drain, gaining a single negative level. Creatures normally immune to energy drain are not immune to Breath of Beliar but they may negate the drain with a DC 40 will save.
Earthmover: The Watcher can use Earthquake, Stony Grasp and Abyssal Rift at will as the spells cast by a 27th level caster.
Celerity: The Watcher has the Lightning Blows feat twice, enabling it to move at half-speed and perform a standard attack at the end of the move as a free action twice per round. By using two uses of this ability, it may perform the move and hit as an immediate action. The number of uses stacks with any instances of the Lightning Blows feat the Watcher may have taken otherwise.

Monk Special Abilities:
Flurry of Blows, Evasion, Wisdom to AC

Warlock Invocations:
Eldritch Spear, Eldritch Cone, Eldritch Glaive, Eldritch Doom
Beshadowed Blast, Noxious Blast, Vitriolic Blast, Utterdark Blast
Darkness, Enervating Shadow, Path of Shadow, Dark Discorporation
See the Unseen, The Dead Walk, Chilling Tentacles, Dark Foresight.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-11, 06:08 PM
What level are the players?

woodenbandman
2009-06-11, 06:09 PM
Aren't epic spells kinda required to kill things in epic? They tend to be immune to everything that's not also epic.

Flickerdart
2009-06-11, 06:10 PM
You don't list a value for the Divine Focus ability, so...

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-11, 06:10 PM
I mean, I'd just Orb him to death, but I suppose that's too cheesy?

Dixieboy
2009-06-11, 06:17 PM
I wouldn't, i'd find a way to stay the hell out of his way... But i don't suppose that counts.

quick_comment
2009-06-11, 06:22 PM
He has only 27 hit dice.

A level 20 cleric who put his mind to it could get his cl up to 37 (without consumptive field).

Orange ioun stone +1
Bead of Karma +4
Ankh of Ascension +4
Ambrosia +2
Words of Creation +1
Good domain
+13 so far.

Then a friendly bard with
Harmonic Chorus: +2
Hymn of Praise: +2

Total is cl 37.

The cleric then casts holy word, instantly slaying the vampire lord.

If you want less cheese, you can go with just orange ioun stone, bead of karma, good domain, ambrosia and words of creation for cl 29, which is enough to blind and deafen the monster. If you let either of the bard spells in, thats enough to paralyze it.


Either this or a ubercharger.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-06-11, 06:22 PM
@Pharaoh's Fist;
Level 24-25, where a 27th level gestalt BBEG would be a very hard challenge. It's a party of 6 but they are not gestalt.

@woodenbandman;
You can whack things with a stick and direct damage spells till they die at any level. Sure, the Watcher would not be permanently destroyed but doing the whole "fire and holy water" thing isn't going to be a problem afterwards.

@Flickerdart;
The divine ancestry is 1/2 its HD (+13 bonus) and has already been added. My mistake for missing it.

@Pharaoh's Fist;
Infinite Deflection + Foresight means the orbs are useless.

holywhippet
2009-06-11, 06:53 PM
Use summon monster to call in an army of celestial monkeys. Give them vials of holy water and tell them to throw the vials at the vampire.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-11, 06:56 PM
@Pharaoh's Fist;
Level 24-25, where a 27th level gestalt BBEG would be a very hard challenge. It's a party of 6 but they are not gestalt.


1. Create personal demiplane.
2. Fill it with a Decanter of Endless Water
3. Put in lots of silver, have cleric turn all the water into Holy Water.
4. Open up a Gate in front of the vampire.
5. ???
6. Profit.

Addendum:

Dust of Dryness + Holy Water + True Strike

RelentlessImp
2009-06-11, 07:09 PM
Step 1: Polymorph Any Object to turn it into a pebble, heightend to 9th level. An epic level caster should be able to reliably beat a +44 save. (or maybe that's just me...)
Step 2: Crush rock with an adamantine hammer.
Step 3: There is no step 3.

Worira
2009-06-11, 07:15 PM
If you can beat its reflex save, Sunburst or Sunbeam will oneshot it.

jcsw
2009-06-11, 07:49 PM
Does celestial brilliance stacking count as cheese?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-06-11, 08:48 PM
Cleric full casting PrCs 23/ Heirophant 4, Practiced Spellcaster, Good domain, Orange Ioun Stone, Bead of Karma. Caster level for Holy Word is as follows:

23 base spellcasting ability
+4 Practiced Spellcaster increases it to equal his character level
+4 four levels of Heirophant
+4 Bead of Karma
+1 ioun stone
+1 good domain
=37

Yes, Heirophant 4 and Practiced Spellcaster work that way. Heirophant does not add directly to the level of your base spellcasting ability, and RAW/RAI you can add your own bonuses in the most beneficial order. Simply add Practiced Spellcaster first, then use Heirophant and other bonuses to exceed your character level.

Divine Spell Power could increase it by up to +4 more, which is easy enough to always get, but not even necessary.

If you want to turn this build into cheese, take Heighten Spell, Earth Spell, Divine Metamagic: Heighten, and the epic feat Improved Heighten Spell, with as many Nightsticks as you can get. Earth Spell increases your caster level for a Heightened spell by as much as it was Heightened by (one fewer than the number of turning attempts spent), and then counts it as Heightened to one additional level higher. For example, if you spend 11 turn attempts, it gets +10 caster level and counts as an 18th level spell.

ZeroNumerous
2009-06-11, 09:02 PM
4 x Spellscale Paladin 20 with Charisma 36(Base 18+2 Race+5 Book+5 Levels+6 Cloak).

Each paladin makes a Touch Attack. Each paladin deals 260 damage. 4*260=1040. Vampire is dust. Touch is only 45, so it's not terribly hard to pop.

If it's level 27, then it should be doable with 2 Paladin 27 with Charisma 41(Base 18+2 Race+5 Book+6 Levels+10 Cloak) for 405 damage each(810 exactly). Also dust.

It's doable with just one paladin and some Polymorphing, but that's cheesy.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-06-12, 02:19 AM
People, there's a reason a party of 6 25th level characters is needed to fight this thing;

Holy Word: unless the cleric is somehow defended, the Watcher uses its celerity to move and attack. A standard attack dealing 50+ damage will shatter the holy symbol. Alternatively, it can simply move beyond range.

Sunburst or Sunbeam won't work; vampire lords are not destroyed by sunlight.

The paladins laying on hands and the holy water will trigger its bloodrage so it won't die from HP damage.


Though the Polymorph any Object could work.

Blue Warlock
2009-06-12, 02:42 AM
People, there's a reason a party of 6 25th level characters is needed to fight this thing;

Holy Word: unless the cleric is somehow defended, the Watcher uses its celerity to move and attack. A standard attack dealing 50+ damage will shatter the holy symbol. Alternatively, it can simply move beyond range.

Sunburst or Sunbeam won't work; vampire lords are not destroyed by sunlight.

The paladins laying on hands and the holy water will trigger its bloodrage so it won't die from HP damage.


Though the Polymorph any Object could work.
You are only right about the Paladins and Polymorph Any Object. I don't see any ranks in knowledge:religion on your vampire, so I don't see how it would know to take care of the holy symbol-especially when any Cleric could just be holding two of them and it would always appear more beneficial to just attack the person and not their gear.
Second sunburst and sunbeam work, the spells specifically state that they destroy any creature that is harmed by sunlight. Your vampire takes -4 penalties on a bunch of crap in sunlight, ergo it is harmed by sunlight. It dies if it fails its save.

Adumbration
2009-06-12, 02:42 AM
Scry/Contact other planes/Legend lore/Bardic lore/Miracle/Wish the location of it's nest. I am presuming that it is a castle of some sort, perhaps. Go there at the brightest noon light, and Earthquake the bugger to ground. There are also several other spells and methods of destroying large buildings, so if Earthquake doesn't cut it, use them.

The vampire emerges, pissed off at the damage they've done to his property. Now, instead of a terror of the night, you're facing a fairly strong warlock. Proceed to kick his ass, and Contact other planes/Legend lore/Bardic lore/Miracle/Wish the method of his demise. If you have a Bereft conveniently near, use him to Unname him - much more certain that he'll never come back to haunt you.

Oh, and before I forget - have all your vital items made of Riverine to prevent inconvenient incidents of sunder and shatter.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-06-12, 02:54 AM
Knowing that clerics need a holy symbol to use their powers is a very basic (DC 10) knowledge check much like that a fighter needs a weapon to fight or that a wizard needs weird material components. Even without ranks, it succeeds on a 1 as the minimum roll for all skills it can do is 1d20+19 for an untrained skill without focus based on its lowest ability score. In fact, it can even recognise most nonepic spells on a 1.

You're right about the Sunbeam though. Thanks for the catch.

@Adumbration;
A suspiciously convenient total Solar eclipse just happens when you do that. The vampire emerges afterwards. (Banish the Light)

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-06-12, 02:59 AM
Plan number 3: Create ten suns around the planet.

Adumbration
2009-06-12, 03:12 AM
@Adumbration;
A suspiciously convenient total Solar eclipse just happens when you do that. The vampire emerges afterwards. (Banish the Light)

I've got 10 minutes before the solar eclipse is complete. More than enough time to still kick his ass - even if it is necessary to use Move Earth to clear the rubble and uncover the vampire from the ruins, there's still plenty of time. It can't even get away, since the Flight is a vampire supernatural ability.

Nondetection prevents inconvenient exposure to Dark Foresight, so he can't even use Banish the Light beforehand - unless he gets lucky on a caster level check.

Of course, this is all knowing perfectly his abilities and having his statblock, so it might not be a valid tactic, as such.

Blue Warlock
2009-06-12, 03:18 AM
Knowing that clerics need a holy symbol to use their powers is a very basic (DC 10) knowledge check much like that a fighter needs a weapon to fight or that a wizard needs weird material components. Even without ranks, it succeeds on a 1 as the minimum roll for all skills it can do is 1d20+19 for an untrained skill without focus based on its lowest ability score.



Fair enough, but that doesn't stop anyone from carrying around 2(or more) holy symbols, and it doesn't work well against clerics that have had their holy symbol made into their armor or shield (rules for this in Eberron or Dungeonscape I think? Can't remember... its getting late)

Keld Denar
2009-06-12, 04:08 AM
Its grapple mod is only +67, which, while high, is not beyond what it could be. A Goliath PsyWar with str gear and other +Grapple stuff under a Divine Power (not unreasonable at level 20) could probably outgrapple it most of the time. A little Death Ward to keep the negative energy at bay and he'd have a good shot at keeping it down while the rest of the party pulls other shanagans. Him working with a Shadowcraft Mage using Spellguard Rings could simulate an 11th level Solid Fog that the vamp would be able to overcome its SR (wait...this thing DOESN'T have SR? WTF?) and the vamp couldn't even get away, while the PsyWar can completely ignore it (due to Spellguard Rings). Then just Dim Lock it. Once its pinned down, a PAing fighter mutt would make quick work of it assuming he had something like a +1 Transmuting weapon to get past the DR in a heartbeat. After you disassemble the thing, its just a matter of knowing the proper steps to make it permanent.

If you wanted to make the thing harder, I'd give it some kind of Dispel Magic, at will, with a CL cap of around 25. Perferably as a swift action like a Balor has. Then give it some kind of SU Teleport (Flee the Scene would work, with Supernatural Transformation) to keep out of harms way.

pingcode20
2009-06-12, 04:24 AM
As Adumbration said, a Riverine (Stormwrack) Holy Symbol works - it's pretty much made of walls of force.

Sure, disintegration, disjunction, and/or a sphere of annihilation will kill it instantly, but if the vampire's blasting away with those, having the riverine explode is the least of your worries.

Probably a good investment anyway, if the vampire lord burning his first turn to smash your holy symbol is something that can reasonably be expected.

---

Spells like sunburst are really your best bet, besides. Even if the you rule against it acting as a save-or-die vs a Vampire Lord, it's still a hell of a weapon against him, blast wise. Saw insane reflex + evasion. No, you'd have to rely on its obliterate-vampires effect.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-06-12, 04:48 AM
@Blue Warlock;
Haven't thought of more than one holy symbol-good catch. But it can still evade the holy word or greater awesome blow the cleric half across Metropolis the city.

@Keld Denar;
The Watcher is made on actual rules/templates from the campaign. I don't want to pull a DM edit to give it more abilities. That said, The Watcher can't be stopped by a grapple. Sure, you can beat its grapple check with enough bonuses. This only means you are not entitled to a reflex save vs its double Eldritch Doom and you have to make two fortitude saves DC 42 (probably easy, at this level) or be nauseated for one minute. Besides, it can Shadow Walk away from a grapple at will.

Keld Denar
2009-06-12, 05:13 AM
Shadow Walk is extraplanar travel, right? Like, moving through the Plane of Shadows from 1 spot to another? Thats blocked by a Dim Lock. No porting of any type.

As far as Dispelling...Dragon Magic has the Voratious Dispelling invoation. Granted, that one caps at +15, which is dumb, but still. Sets a precident for extrapolating that kind of thing. Another thing you could do to give it SLAs is Evolve it (Libris Mortis) and then give it Quicken Spell Like Ability or similar.

Yora
2009-06-12, 05:32 AM
Shadow Walk is listed under the blocked spells.

BobVosh
2009-06-12, 06:30 AM
I really have nothing to add to this thread, but I wanted to say I always enjoy reading Belial_the_Leveler's awesome monsters.

RelentlessImp
2009-06-12, 07:06 AM
Knowing that clerics need a holy symbol to use their powers is a very basic (DC 10) knowledge check much like that a fighter needs a weapon to fight or that a wizard needs weird material components. Even without ranks, it succeeds on a 1 as the minimum roll for all skills it can do is 1d20+19 for an untrained skill without focus based on its lowest ability score. In fact, it can even recognise most nonepic spells on a 1.

Except Knowledge skills can't be used untrained. Unless I'm missing something.

Sanguine
2009-06-12, 12:43 PM
Except Knowledge skills can't be used untrained. Unless I'm missing something.

They can but only for DC10 or lower.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-12, 02:25 PM
Knowing that clerics need a holy symbol to use their powers is a very basic (DC 10) knowledge check much like that a fighter needs a weapon to fight or that a wizard needs weird material components. Even without ranks, it succeeds on a 1 as the minimum roll for all skills it can do is 1d20+19 for an untrained skill without focus based on its lowest ability score. In fact, it can even recognise most nonepic spells on a 1.My Clerics generally have 3+ holy symbols in various places about their persons. I've run a Paladin with it scarred into his chest before, and a Cleric whose Holy Symbol can be his own skull if he gets desperate enough. Sundering it is only effective at level 1, when it's common to only be able to afford one symbol.

Similarly, my arcanists have 3+ Spell Component pouches, including one emptied out into their HHH. And often I mention innocuously that they're wearing gloves...

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-06-12, 04:42 PM
Sundering a holy symbol or spell component/focus in the middle of the spell still stops said spell and the cleric needs to draw another symbol (if he has one).

And then there is Sundering Cleave. Not only you sunder an item (such as the symbol) but you automatically get a free attack against the item's wielder. A full-attack with Sundering Cleave not only can sunder 4-5 items but also is a full attack against the victim...

I think I'll give the Watcher sundering cleave :smallamused:

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-12, 11:12 PM
Sundering a holy symbol or spell component/focus in the middle of the spell still stops said spell and the cleric needs to draw another symbol (if he has one).

And then there is Sundering Cleave. Not only you sunder an item (such as the symbol) but you automatically get a free attack against the item's wielder. A full-attack with Sundering Cleave not only can sunder 4-5 items but also is a full attack against the victim...

I think I'll give the Watcher sundering cleave :smallamused:Let me put it this way. I've played 4 divine casters. A Druid(who spends the day in the shape of an animal and doesn't need components), a Paladin(who had the holy symbol of Heironius scarred into his chest in a jailhouse fight), a Paladin(with no special immunity), and a Gnome Cleric of Kurtulmak(whose holy symbol is the head of a Gnome). 3 out of my 4 divine casters are completely immune to Sunder. Don't count on it as a tactic, especially at levels where Wands of Arcane Mark(or similar tactics) are available.

Dagren
2009-06-12, 11:58 PM
Similarly, my arcanists have 3+ Spell Component pouches, including one emptied out into their HHH. And often I mention innocuously that they're wearing gloves...Wouldn't that be a bit inconvenient in battle? I would have thought the belt of many pockets would be better for something you could need at a moments notice.

Sundering a holy symbol or spell component/focus in the middle of the spell still stops said spell and the cleric needs to draw another symbol (if he has one).

And then there is Sundering Cleave. Not only you sunder an item (such as the symbol) but you automatically get a free attack against the item's wielder. A full-attack with Sundering Cleave not only can sunder 4-5 items but also is a full attack against the victim...

I think I'll give the Watcher sundering cleave :smallamused:I thought you could only sunder held equipment? Pulling a new one out his back pocket would be a free action, wouldn't it?

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-06-13, 04:58 AM
You can sunder anything that isn't armor, both held or carried. And unless someone has quick draw, drawing an item from a pocket is a move action (unless it's a spell component in which case it is part of casting the spell)

mostlyharmful
2009-06-13, 08:55 AM
@Blue Warlock;
Haven't thought of more than one holy symbol-good catch. But it can still evade the holy word or greater awesome blow the cleric half across Metropolis the city.

I'd get hacked off with this as a player, if the guy tries to sunder the symbol with his action then I get my turn, he doesn't get to try something and if it doesn't work reverse what he's done. It could evade the holy word if it identified it but it wouldn't know that most clerics keep multiple holy symbols in case they lose one so it'd do exactly what you first said and sunder the obvious symbol.

Oh, and do you need to present a holy symbol to use it in a spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#components)? I thought you just needed to have a symbol on you rather than have to wave it around, easy to get around with a symbol or five on your equipment but still.



Edit: It seems a bit odd to try to ban cheese in a Gestalt Epic game, the system has long since broken down at those levels and anything that works is cheese or totally inaffective. So just go with Gated minions of dooooom.:smallwink: