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MichielHagen
2009-06-12, 08:19 AM
Hi,

if i were to build a Warblade using Greater Insightful Strike and Stormguard Warrior for damage output. Is there any reason not to use Weapon Finesse and focus on dex, given that for roleplaying reasons i will use light armor and elven race?

The plusses are i can skyrocket my dex to gain both AC and AB.
I understand my carrying capacity is limited, but that is no problem at all. Also my damage output without the feats is limited, but since i will be using them....

Doc Roc
2009-06-12, 08:27 AM
Welp, how many attacks are you pushing out and at what bonuses? This is an important question with stormguard warrior.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-06-12, 09:16 AM
Hi,

if i were to build a Warblade using Greater Insightful Strike and Stormguard Warrior for damage output. Is there any reason not to use Weapon Finesse and focus on dex, given that for roleplaying reasons i will use light armor and elven race?

The plusses are i can skyrocket my dex to gain both AC and AB.
I understand my carrying capacity is limited, but that is no problem at all. Also my damage output without the feats is limited, but since i will be using them....

Actually, if you are going to be doing that, a better idea would be to go Swordsage with Shadow Blade to replace Dex for damage as well.

MichielHagen
2009-06-12, 09:35 AM
Welp, how many attacks are you pushing out and at what bonuses? This is an important question with stormguard warrior.

Level 12, 3 attacks, probably around +24/+19/+14


Actually, if you are going to be doing that, a better idea would be to go Swordsage with Shadow Blade to replace Dex for damage as well.

Sounds like a good choice, but i want to play the Warblade nevertheless.
I want acces to Iron Heart Discipline, and the full BAB and higher hitpoints helps too.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-06-12, 10:41 AM
Does stormguard warrior even allow the extra damage to be dealt with Insightful strike(thats the one where your damage is a concentration check correct) i thought that nothing added to the Damage?

Draz74
2009-06-12, 11:13 AM
Does stormguard warrior even allow the extra damage to be dealt with Insightful strike(thats the one where your damage is a concentration check correct) i thought that nothing added to the Damage?

It's not, but then, you can't use Insightful Strike every round anyway.

MichielHagen
2009-06-12, 11:16 AM
No, but i never claimed so.

I just gave 2 reasons why the damage i normally deal with str, is less important than normal.

Thrawn183
2009-06-12, 11:47 AM
Grappling. No seriously. I have a gnome build that does essentially the same thing, until you can pick up a ring of freedom of movement you're still going to have problems. The best grapplers also have really high attack bonuses (high Str plus BAB?), so they will in fact hit you, they will grapple you and then you're screwed.

If you can't afford a RoFoM, you might want to look at a Periapt of Proof Against Poison before then so that you can at least protect yourself from the poisons that a lot of grapplers have. As an example, at a level you couldn't afford the PoPAP of course, imagine what would happen when you run into a chuul. You'll get grappled, you'll get poisoned and you will either be coup de grace'd or simply ignored.

Lastly, this might sound odd, but I recommed always having a light weapon (either for TWF or just as your main weapon). You're probably going TWF, and if so carry 2 light weapons. This way you can still fight your way out if you get swallowed whole. You won't be able to make the grapple check to draw a light weapon while grappled so if you don't have it out already, you're in trouble.

Edit: Also, talk to your DM about using strikes while grappled. I've always interpreted it as you can't, but if he doesn't, consider yourself very, very lucky.

AngelOmnipotent
2009-06-12, 11:50 AM
Grappling. No seriously. I have a gnome build that does essentially the same thing, until you can pick up a ring of freedom of movement you're still going to have problems. The best grapplers also have really high attack bonuses (high Str plus BAB?), so they will in fact hit you, they will grapple you and then you're screwed.


SRD: "You can make an Escape Artist check opposed by your enemy’s grapple check to get out of a grapple or out of a pinned condition"

So just pump that skill, and even cross-class with a high DEX you have a decent enough chance to get out of it.

Draz74
2009-06-12, 11:50 AM
You could look into saving a feat by using a light Feycraft weapon instead of taking the actual Weapon Finesse feat.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-06-12, 12:33 PM
No, but i never claimed so.

I just gave 2 reasons why the damage i normally deal with str, is less important than normal.

Never said you where i wanted to make sure they couldn't add to each other.
But weapon finesse in the idea you have is a great way to allow str as a dump stat.

the thing i love about insightfull strike is that you can ignore the mg on your weapon and just take one that you like/ that has some other boosts like a flail or a whip or what not.

sonofzeal
2009-06-12, 12:38 PM
Sounds like a good choice, but i want to play the Warblade nevertheless.
I want acces to Iron Heart Discipline, and the full BAB and higher hitpoints helps too.
Martial Stance qualifies you for Shadow Blade.

ChaosDefender24
2009-06-12, 12:50 PM
Martial Stance qualifies you for Shadow Blade.

...which requires Martial Study in a shadow hand maneuver first.

How about a swordsage dip instead of 2 feats burned?

Eldariel
2009-06-12, 01:38 PM
...which requires Martial Study in a shadow hand maneuver first.

How about a swordsage dip instead of 2 feats burned?

This. Especially since the first two levels of SS get you Weapon Focus (to make up for the lost BAB), Wis to AC in light armor (handy), a crapton of maneuvers from obscure schools, extra skill points, and the Shadow Hand-things.

MichielHagen
2009-06-12, 02:28 PM
I considered that, but Shadow Blade only works in a Shadow Hand Stance....

A feycraft weapon would be an excellent addition!

About grappling, wouldn't a pair of boots with a form of teleportation help me a bit? But i guess it would just be a delay, since i will just be grappled again and again, but then again, if i just teleport next to him, then attack again, i get a few hits in, and my party should be able to help out.

Ring of Freedom of Movement is a little bit too early for me to afford.

only1doug
2009-06-12, 02:30 PM
can you afford a 3 level dip into swashbuckler for int bonus to damage from all finess attacks (and free weapon finesse at L1)?

MichielHagen
2009-06-12, 02:49 PM
Hmmm....2 levels of Swordsage might indeed be interesting.....would that also mean i have 2 stances effective at the same time?

And if for example, i take 8 levels of Warblade, then 2 levels of Swordsage, would i be able to take 2 level 3 Stances?

Swashbuckler might be attractive, but flavorwise it does not seem to fit with my character.

lsfreak
2009-06-12, 02:57 PM
Yes, it only works in shadow hand stance, but there's plenty of good ones. Two levels gets you Island of Blades and Assassin's Stance, which lets you get your Int modifier to flanked damage more often, or lets you do more damage when flanking, in addition to adding your Dex to damage.

So if you're focusing on Dex (let's say 22 total) and have a decent Int score (say, 16), the two levels of swordsage gets you a flat +9 or so to damage due to flanking more often, or +2d6+6 due to assassin's stance. If you find yourself not able to flank, then you can always drop into Pearl of Black Doubt or Punishing Stance or something.

EDIT: No, you can only be in one stance at a time.

quick_comment
2009-06-12, 03:12 PM
Take weapon finesse and EWP: spiked chain. You can fineese spiked chains. They are also a shadow hand weapon.

Then you can dip swordsage to get shadow blade to get dex to damage. Then you take power attack and shock trooper, so you can full power attack and still hit. Then you add fierce to your weapon (AE&Q) to be able to take your dex-AC bonus and assign it to weapon damage.

For BAB X and dex Y, you end up with 2d4+2X+2Y. Your AC is reduced by x+Y.

woodenbandman
2009-06-12, 10:49 PM
^He's two weapon fighting, spiked chains are impossible to TWF with.

Warblades with Finesse work, but if you don't want to do JUST stormguard warrior forever, you might actually consider some strength in there. You can either pump your Dex up to like 40something or just leave it at 19 and move your strength up high. Martial Stance + Shadow blade or a swordsage dip for Dex to damage is nice. Remember there are situations where stormguard warrior is not appropriate, such as fighting enemies with exceptional reach, teleportation, concealment, or other things.

ZeroNumerous
2009-06-12, 10:57 PM
^He's two weapon fighting, spiked chains are impossible to TWF with.

Not.. quite. There's a PrC in Drow of the Underdark that lets you treat spiked chains as one-handed weapons.

Gaiyamato
2009-06-12, 11:04 PM
Lastly, this might sound odd, but I recommed always having a light weapon (either for TWF or just as your main weapon). You're probably going TWF, and if so carry 2 light weapons. This way you can still fight your way out if you get swallowed whole. You won't be able to make the grapple check to draw a light weapon while grappled so if you don't have it out already, you're in trouble.


Quick Draw + Flick of the Wrist + Close Quarters Fighting
Useful in many situations.

Counts on you not being surprised though.

Two shortswords or hand axes for awesomeness. :)

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-12, 11:38 PM
^He's two weapon fighting, spiked chains are impossible to TWF with. Kusari-gama, DMG. It's Light. Yeah, that makes no sense, but it is. Spiked Chain in all other respects, though.

Dacia Brabant
2009-06-13, 12:37 AM
Depending on how high you can get your Wis stat you may even want to dip 4 levels into Swordsage for the +Wis to a given discipline's strikes, and since you're Stormguard Warrioring I would assume Diamond Mind for this: Emerald Razor, Ruby/Diamond Nightmare Blade, Avalanche of Blades and Time Stands Still all work exceptionally well with that combo.

If you go the rest of the way in Warblade you'd still only miss out on 1 BAB point, made up for by the Discipline Focus class feature, which synergizes well with Warblade anyway, and you'll end up with two 9th level maneuvers and an 8th level stance by 20 so you're not missing out on very much other than the Warblade capstone--which is awesome so you'd have to decide if it's worth dipping in anything at all.

But yeah, the point is you should be able to do a good deal of damage with the right boosts, strikes and stances to not have to worry about dumping Strength, and if you are then there's really no reason not to take Weapon Finesse unless you expect all your weapons to be Feycraft.

On the other hand, if you're going with an elf you may want to take a look at Champion of Corellon Larethian (RotW). It's a pretty heavy feat outlay to qualify, but a 2-level dip will get you Dex to damage with certain elven-preferred weapons, which means not having to worry if you're in a Shadow Hand stance or not. Then there's also Eternal Blade, which every elven Warblade should at least consider.

sofawall
2009-06-13, 01:11 AM
Kusari-gama, DMG. It's Light. Yeah, that makes no sense, but it is. Spiked Chain in all other respects, though.

Is it Shadow Hand? That is the important bit.

Demons_eye
2009-06-13, 01:24 AM
Shaow hand also uses Unamres Strike so TWF spike and unarmed works.

Teron
2009-06-13, 02:46 AM
Swashbuckler might be attractive, but flavorwise it does not seem to fit with my character.
You already seem to be going for the clever, agile warrior archetype. How can a swashbuckler dip possibly not fit? :smallconfused:

only1doug
2009-06-13, 03:42 PM
You already seem to be going for the clever, agile warrior archetype. How can a swashbuckler dip possibly not fit? :smallconfused:

I was wondering that too...

don't forget that you can reflavour the text of swashbuckler and still keep the abilities, you don't have to swing from chandeliers if you don't want to.

Eldariel
2009-06-13, 03:56 PM
^He's two weapon fighting, spiked chains are impossible to TWF with.

There's also that Drow Scorpion Chain in Races of Eberron IIRC. You can TWF with it or wield it as a reach weapon.

EDIT: I could've sworn it can be used as a double weapon, but it's not listed as such in the book. Hmm, weird.