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Eerie
2009-06-12, 09:39 AM
By now, I have seen several threads describing how a party of PCs can effectively cripple, disperse and destroy a huge army of low-level monsters/NPCs. Mainly it is done by the spell-caster (duh) through a combination of AOE (cloudkill, summons...) and precision (scry and die, invisibility...) spells.

So let`s look at the problem from the other side. Imagine that you are a warlord, commanding a huge army of low-level soldiers. Something akin to the OotS hobgoblin invading army, but without Xykon and Redcloak. You need to conquer a fortress protected by a small regiment of low-level soldiers and a party of adventurers.

What will be the best strategy, apart from "don`t do it"?

Duke of URL
2009-06-12, 09:45 AM
Numbers. Sheer numbers.

Eventually, you're going to wear the spellcasters out. You can speed up this process by having your own casters (if any) counterspell and dispel, forcing the opponents to use more resources. You can also play "scry and die", to take out some or all of their spellcasters.

Without casters, look for magic items to offset spells.

Remember, once the magic is minimized or neutralized, you will win on sheer numbers alone.

Farlion
2009-06-12, 09:45 AM
1. bring alot of catapults
2. catapult in filthy rats
3. hope some of the rats have pest
4. wait
5. ????
6. wait some more
7. maybe you win

Eerie
2009-06-12, 09:47 AM
By now, I have seen several threads describing how a party of PCs can effectively cripple, disperse and destroy a huge army of low-level monsters/NPCs. Mainly it is done by the spell-caster (duh) through a combination of AOE (cloudkill, summons...) and precision (scry and die, invisibility...) spells.

So let`s look at the problem from the other side. Imagine that you are a warlord, commanding a huge army of low-level soldiers. Something akin to the OotS hobgoblin invading army, but without Xykon and Redcloak. You need to conquer a fortress protected by a small regiment of low-level soldiers and a party of adventurers.

What will be the best strategy, apart from "don`t do it"?

Croverus
2009-06-12, 09:47 AM
1. bring alot of catapults
2. catapult in filthy rats
3. hope some of the rats have pest
4. wait
5. ????
6. wait some more
7. maybe you win

You must be new to 4chan...

Eerie
2009-06-12, 09:49 AM
From the threads I saw, it will take tens of thousands of troops to take out a PC wizard by sheer numbers alone. Can`t we optimise it?

Also, as a warlord, can I fight the "scry and die" tactic somehow?

Britter
2009-06-12, 09:51 AM
If you have an army, instead of trying to kill the PCs, perhaps it would be more effective to cause them to lose.

After all, a small group can't be everywhere at once. Create a scenario where the army is striking at more then one place. Burn villages, ruin towns, beseige the city the PCs are in with enough force to hold them there, and force them to watch as you ravage the countryside.

Victory doesn't necessarily mean reducing your enemies hit points to zero.

re: powerful spell casters. Best bet is probably to acquire your own spellcaster of similar power, if possible. Alternately, several casters of moderate power, hitting seperate, diverse targets simultaneously, should drain the resources of the opposition.

TengYt
2009-06-12, 09:52 AM
If the party are wandering adventurers hired to protect the city under siege, you could use undercover agents and rogues to try and spread dissident amongst the ordinary enemy soldiers, maybe driving a wedge between the low level mooks and the PCs. If you have a lot of resources, consider "buying" as much spellcasters as possible rather than just going for a mass of infantry. If possible, try a get a higher level army on average even if it means drastically cutting your numbers.
Either that, or just zerg rush and hope you can wear the enemy spellcasters down.

Eerie
2009-06-12, 09:54 AM
Britter, it IS an option, but what if the PCs defend a strategic point that you must take?

Blackjackg
2009-06-12, 09:55 AM
Let's see...

Spread out, to minimize the effects of AoE spells and Great Cleavage.

Be patient. Every now and then, stop advancing for a few minutes to let spells expire.

To the extent possible, hit them from afar with high-damage payloads like boulders. If nothing else, they will have to expend resources to blow up your catapults that would otherwise be spent killing your troops.

Farlion
2009-06-12, 09:56 AM
Maybe lure the PC to a place where you can bury them under the castle walls using catapults or gunpowder to make it crash onto them.

Cheers,
Farlion

paddyfool
2009-06-12, 09:57 AM
Depends on timescale, how serious a fortress we're talking about, what level the party are, and how optimised their casters may be. Some ideas, however:

1) Siege weapons are your friend. If you can take down the fortifications, or set them on fire and smoke the enemy out, it'll be much easier to swarm the buggers.

2) Massed archery is also your friend - probably about the only way to get the damage output to seriously concern a mid-level PC. However, any decent caster can obviously stop this quite easily. Reach weapons also work pretty well; think formations of pikemen etc. to bring many to bear against any one opponent.

3) Be careful of assassination attempts against your officers and other important personnel; make them hard to identify, don't let them get over-exposed etc.

4) Tanglefoot bags.

Lamech
2009-06-12, 10:02 AM
From the threads I saw, it will take tens of thousands of troops to take out a PC wizard by sheer numbers alone. Can`t we optimise it?

Also, as a warlord, can I fight the "scry and die" tactic somehow?
Teeheehee... Scry and die, good thing there is a fourth level spell that can put a stop to this crap. Divination (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divination.htm), just ask when and where people will port into your army with the desire to hurt you or your soldiers. Now, it might be a cryptic message or it might be a clear "in your tent at 0347". Guess who decides? :smallamused: PC's die to 200 alchemists fires. Or a vat of lava, try casting when your mouth is filled with molten rock. Even acid should do the trick, I don't see how one can speak clearly under water acid.

TengYt
2009-06-12, 10:10 AM
D&D 3.5 is arguably balanced for parties having four encounters a day. As long as you can keep the enemy party occupied for the entire day without an 8 hour break, you can wear them down provided they are mid level or so. Send out your own spellcasters without counterspells ready to deal with enemy casters, protected by infantry and archers. For Fighters, Barbarians etc, try and get them trapped out in the open and surround them if you don't mind taking heavy losses, and send your troops into the grinder. Eventually, the numbers will prevail. If you don't want to sacrifice vast numbers of your army, just use mass ranged attacks on them. Use siege weapons to blast open bottlenecks. A good plan would be to position your siege weapons near a forest, so when the PCs inevitably go out to destroy them you can spring an ambush. Employ a large numbers of Monks with Stunning Fist. Not only will this cut costs on equipment, but a single failed save could be lethal for a PC against mass troops. Druids are also useful as you basically get a free Fighter for every Druid.

Britter
2009-06-12, 10:11 AM
Well, let me be honest. If I am the GM, I would try to avoid creating the conditions for such a "must have" sort of strategic location. If the PCs get ensconced in such a hard point, it can be a real pain to dig them out.

If, either due to your campaign requiring one, or due to the PCs efforts, there is a very valuable, must-have spot in your campaign that is heavily defended, figure out why it is so valuable. Is it possible to go around it? Do the PCs have allies in other kingdoms that you could attack to draw them out of their strategic location? Sure, powerful characters can hole up in a place and just wait you out, potentially for an indefinite period, but if you have the resources, why not take the battle to another "must have" place and force the PCs to choose: Defend our stronghold or allow our enemy to esthablish their own stronghold by defeating our allies.

If you have to attack a very well guarded position, then think in more then one dimension. The PCs will devestate a conventional force that attacks the front gates, sure. But what if you have flying units dropping firebombs at the same time as you have tunnelling units weakening the walls and fortifications, while your riverboats deposit elite troops along the cities docks and your main army bombards the gates with rams and trebuchet?

Force the PCs to choose where they will fight. Make it impossbile for them to be everywhere at once. Force them to make tough decisions, avoid exposing your entire force to their entire force. Don't hand them opportunities to destroy you in detail.

Intelligence gathering will be usefull too. Scrying, of course, but why not employ dopplegangers to infiltrate enemy strongholds, or invisible stalkers to kill minor officers of the PC's army? Kill officers and sergants, in order to demoralize the PCs forces and break down their chain of command.

Think outside the box. If your D and D world follows the rules conventions, then the way war will be fought is not going to look like traditional medevial warfare, but more like modern combined arms forces. A savvy commander is going to deny the PCs an opportunity to devestate his forces in detail by exposing them to the powerful heroes, and will instead try to fight on multiple fronts, and multiple dimensions (perhaps even literally, by using teleport tactics to deposit commandos behind enemy lines to destroy the enemy's supply lines).

Don't let the PCs control the rythym of the fight. Dictate when, how, and where you fight. Attack at night, then attack again an hour after the first battle. Press any advantage you get.

Read some Sun Tsu, or maybe some Clausewitz, and try to get a feel for ways to control the battle, confuse the enemy, and preserve your forces at the same time.

Be devious.

Edit: Another idea, which is not necessarily valuable in D and D due to the hit point system. Fight to wound. That way the enemy has a lot of injured soldiers to deal with. It will spread their resources thin, force their clerics to use more healing magic, and the PCs will be forced to either leave a lot of wounded soldiers to die on the battlefield after every engagement, or risk thier resources by retrieving the injured after every battle.

Now, don't fight to wound the PCs. Engage them with extreme prejudice and wipe them out if you get the chance. But wound their army, reduce the amount of manpower they have.

Maybe poison or disease could be used for this sort of thing, if the mechanics don't support incapacitating wounds or limb-specific damage.

If you are feeling really nasty, booby-trap the wounded so that they damage the stretcher bearers or the healers.

The_Werebear
2009-06-12, 10:34 AM
First, as the warlord, unless it is necessary, don't be the guy sitting on the throne in fancy armor. Be a power behind the throne. Preferably an invisible one.

Second, never allow the PC's a break. Always be hitting many points at once. If you are attacking a small garrison and you massively outnumber them, don't worry too much about them. Smash every point you can reach at once, preferably 10 or more points at a time

When it comes to actually attacking the hardpoints, like a keep they are actively guarding, be willing to sacrifice a large amount of men to take it down as quickly as possible. If you give the PC's a chance to rest, it will just cost you more in the long run. Overkill is your friend here. Use Catapults, Ladders, Rams, Tunneling, Aerial Assaults (winged monsters carrying goblins, firing goblins out of catapults with parachutes). The key is overwhelming them so they can't wreck your plan.

MickJay
2009-06-12, 10:35 AM
Get some spellcasters (hire if you don't have any) to help you and/or dig a tunnel to bypass the walls (avoiding horrible losses direct assaults would cost you).

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-12, 10:48 AM
You overestimate wizard and underestimate melee types. With AC 24+ (easily achieved at low middle levels by any melee type), they're only hit 1/20 of the time. With an average damage of say, 6.5 (1d8+2), you're talking about dealing 0.325 damage... a fighter will have 14+(9.5*(level-1)) hit points and will one-shot your troops. With Cleave (a non-optimal choice, except in a campaign where you run up against armies of mooks) and Great Cleave, everyone adjacent to the fighter dies every round. Then the fighter takes 2.8 damage when everyone rushes him. Then they all die. That's 32 dead per level of the fighter to wear him down, assuming the fighter gets no healing and is very boring and non-tactical, and assuming the absence of any kind of psychology in your troops (i.e. the natural instinct of people to not get hurt, which means that when multiple combatants attack a single superior combatant, they all want to hang back and let someone else attack, hoping their enemy will be left open for attack without risk).

If you've got a giant army of 10,000 (pretty much staggeringly huge by medieval standards), and are able to entrap the party (i.e. they're too stupid to have teleport), you might be able to wear them down - assuming, again, the complete absence of psychological factors. Unfortunately, once the wizard has slaughtered a thousand men with fireballs and the fighter has killed 200 men in single combat without breaking a sweat, your army will probably rout in disarray. The casualty figures in medieval battles were usually fairly low - maybe even 10%, because by that point your army will likely be routing.

If the party spread out and strike you from several directions, they'll likely start a "cascade rout" - your right flank and left flank collapse simultaneously as your troops run away from the fighter killing machine and the one wizard artillery battery, and the rest of your army follows with them.

And that's just two of the five-man party...


I have a very simple answer for running fight against armies in my games. Since levels represent absolutely nothing concrete in the world, and are simply game mechanics representations of the importance of the enemies, I adjust enemy levels to sufficiently challenge the PCs. Against level 6 PCs, level 1-2 mooks will do fine. Against level 10 PCs, the mooks might even be level 4. The difference keeps getting bigger, and the PCs are able to take on more and more mooks, but the challenge remains. (Obviously this works out way better in 4E with minions.) After a certain level, fights against the rank-and-file won't even be played out. "You cut a path through the throng of orcs. Suddenly, the press of bodies opens up ahead of you, and you see an twenty-foot ogre with plate-armored knights spot-welded to every part of his body striding toward you!"

Britter
2009-06-12, 10:54 AM
I agree completely with the scaling of troops to pc levels. And I also agree completely with the signifigant type of encounter you describe. Very good points to make a seige or a major battle interesting for the PCs, as opposed to a rather long and boring excersise in rolling dice.

TengYt
2009-06-12, 10:56 AM
Yeah, I agree. If the entire army is made up is 1HD orcs and the party is level 10, for example, then there's not point even running the battle tbh.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-12, 11:01 AM
Handily enough, melee types get BAB faster than PCs get AC, generally speaking. NPC damage, meanwhile, does not increase that much... so overall, they remain capable of hurting the PCs, but the PCs can take on more and more and more of them (especially when you factor in magic).

Radar
2009-06-12, 11:12 AM
War of attrition:
1. Don't lay a frontal siege at all. Stay mobile and divide your forces to push many goals foreward at the same time. Adventurers can't be everywere to stop your minions - that's one of key advantages of having a large army.

2. At the same time it's vital to keep good comunication between task-forces and you have to track the position af the adventurers - you will need someone with scrying abilities and some way to see invisible from longer distance would be helpful. Use familiars, summoned or trained birds for aerial scouting.

3. Cut off all the supplies. Better yet, if anyone wants to sneak into the fortress, strip them from their posession and let them go in (you can force them, if they are not willing). This will add up over time to a lot more people to feed and food shortage will come sooner. To speed this up, raid nearby villages and such - the keep will get crowded and starving very soon. You could try to sneak some spies in, but that's risky - adventurers can Detect Evil easily.

4. If possible poison their water - clerics can purify it, but it probably won't be enough for all people closed in the fortress. Trying to spread a disease is also possible, yet risky.

5. Dig an underground passage - a classic way of dealing with castles and such.

6. They will probably try to sry-and-die you, so scrying prevention will be important - an item of Non-detection will do probably.

7. If it comes to an actual battle, archers are your best type of unit - whatever the odds, 1 shot in 20 will be a critical hit. And there is no limit on how many people can target a single adventurer as long as they see him. It would still be better to avoid any confrontation with the adventurers.

In general it's better to force the defenders to surrender, then fight them up front. It workred in Middle Ages, it can work in D&D. Yet from a certain level of adventurers, it comes down to fighting fire with fire.

MickJay
2009-06-12, 11:12 AM
Edit: I've made posts in both threads, which got merged, here's the "double" :smalltongue:

Dig a number of tunnels into the the defended place; either invade simultaneously from inside through those tunnels, or blow up/bring down the walls in a few places.

TengYt
2009-06-12, 11:18 AM
PCs won't surrender unless they're being railroaded into it by a DM. However, their low level forces can surrender, desert, defect, or be bribed, especially if your army has a reputation for crushing everything in it's path. If you can strip away their meatshields they'll have a much harder time when you start sieging them from ten directions at once.

Also, try and outsmart and outpredict the party. Say you destroy a section of a wall with catapults. If you move troops to storm the hole, the party will certainly try and hold the gap. When they move to engage a portion of your forces (which are only there to distract the party), you can do something sneaky like dig a tunnel or out manouver their fortifications.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-12, 11:18 AM
War of attrition:
1. Don't lay a frontal siege at all. Stay mobile and divide your forces to push many goals foreward at the same time. Adventurers can't be everywere to stop your minions - that's one of key advantages of having a large army.

The PCs are going to be more mobile. Between overland flight, phantom steed, and teleport, they can effectively be everywhere at once. Inside one hour, they can decimate as many taskforces as they have teleport spells available.


3. Cut off all the supplies. Better yet, if anyone wants to sneak into the fortress, strip them from their posession and let them go in (you can force them, if they are not willing). This will add up over time to a lot more people to feed and food shortage will come sooner. To speed this up, raid nearby villages and such - the keep will get crowded and starving very soon. You could try to sneak some spies in, but that's risky - adventurers can Detect Evil easily.

Create food and water is a third-level spell. Create water (which is more important) is a 0-level spell.


4. If possible poison their water - clerics can purify it, but it probably won't be enough for all people closed in the fortress. Trying to spread a disease is also possible, yet risky.

Clerics again.

3. and 4. will tie up some resources, but both take time to work, and the PCs don't have any reason to sit still and wait. They can just use superior (and usually unpreventable, unless you have high-level casters, which changes the situation entirely and makes your army irrelevant) mobility to strike at you as they please, while you're stuck trying to outlast them.


7. If it comes to an actual battle, archers are your best type of unit - whatever the odds, 1 shot in 20 will be a critical hit. And there is no limit on how many people can target a single adventurer as long as they see him. It would still be better to avoid any confrontation with the adventurers.

No, 1 in 20 will hit. Criticals need to be confirmed. 1 in 400 will be a critical (assuming a 20 on the confirmation is an auto-hit; is it?).

Edit: Incidentally, something as simple as wind wall (always worth memorizing if you're facing a thousand archers!) will defeat this, and stoneskin or any other source of DR will make these mass attack tactics at least partially irrelevant. Beware the fighter with adamantine armor...

Duke of URL
2009-06-12, 11:19 AM
I'm actually working on a large-scale combat system that essentially treats a large group of mooks as a single enemy with a higher CR. I've got some playtesting to do, but the basic version as it stands is:


Assume all individuals within a "unit" are identical stats, feats, class levels, equipment, etc.; a combined unit must exist in contiguous squares to receive unit benefits.
Calculate the EL for the combined unit (e.g., 20 CR 1 creatures has an EL of 9)
For offense, treat the unit as a single creature with a CR = EL, advancing the stats, BAB, saves, class levels, feats, etc. of a single individual until it reaches that CR
The unit gets +1 damage on attacks for each increase in CR over its original CR
For defense, each unit is still an individual entity and must be attacked separately.
Troop losses, or separation causing the group to no longer be together, will result in one or more lesser units with a lower CR


Now, a theoretical group of 20 1st-level fighters might act as a CR 9 unit (Fighter 9) when together, but the actual CR is probably lower due to the fact that their equipment will lag their effective "level" and that they lose capability as they get "injured". As I said, still in playtesting. I'm also working on a "leader" mechanic to allow a higher-CR creature to improve the effectiveness of the unit by sacrificing its own individuality/actions to improve the group. (I.e., a "sergeant" or "captain")

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-12, 11:21 AM
I'm actually working on a large-scale combat system that essentially treats a large group of mooks as a single enemy with a higher CR. I've got some playtesting to do, but the basic version as it stands is:

Sounds like the rules for mobs in... DMG2, is it? Good idea, probably.

Incidentally, here (www.mongoosepublishing.com/pdf/conanmasscombat.pdf) is a PDF of Mongoose d20 mass combat system. Great for ideas and adaptation.

Britter
2009-06-12, 11:30 AM
It does seem that a lot of tactics will really hinge on the exact levels of the PCs that you are dealing with as well as their classes.

High level casters will of course just hose everything up.

Only way to counter them will be more high level casters.

I still think forcing the PCs to constantly react to the enemy across a lot of locations all at once will be a usefull way to drain their resources. Just be smart about it.

Aux-Ash
2009-06-12, 11:30 AM
One thing to remember is that military archers are not marksmen, they do not shoot to hit you. They shoot at your general location. It's not their aim that allows them to turn their targets to pincushions... it's the sheer amount of arrows.

If the archers get the ability to fire they can kill (or at least lock down) pretty much everything by simply raining arrows. Releasing volley after volley after volley every 10 seconds. And they are trained to keep doing that for hours. From a distance of ~300 meters (with longbows/crossbows, a bit shorter with less powerful bows).

There's no way dodging or armour can be used to nullify a rain of arrows (magic might though). The only way to survive being under a rain of arrows (short of magic) is to find cover (shields if nothing else, but that's flawed at best. Arrows aren't particulary thick and easily slip past and hit things like feet and legs, especially if one is moving).

So, that might help give any party some trouble. I am unfamilar how DnD treats archery so I cannot explain how it would work exactly.

But it's important to remember that military archers are used as artillery, not marksmen. Their job is just as much pinning their target as it is killing them.

Thrawn183
2009-06-12, 11:32 AM
So it might seem like overkill, but the siege weapons are actually for killing the PC's. You target the square they're in and not their AC. They get an easy save (Ref 15) to take half, but they still take half! If you have a 100 heavy catapults, the moment the wizard shows himself... boom. Assuming the wizard makes all his saves that's still 100*3d6 damage. Yeah, wizard is not coming back from that. Oh, and don't forget that siege weapons can go through that nifty little wind wall.

That level 10 fighter scaring you? He'll be hard pressed to kill more than a dozen of your men a round. Unlike in real world combat, archers don't miss the square they're aiming at, so you can have massed archer fire literally right into the middle of your troops safely. So while that fighter takes on those 1000 soldiers standing in his way? A thousand archers are plinking away every round, one in 20 hitting. 4.5*.05*1000=225 damage a round assuming no DR. This is, of course, assuming that he's not getting hit by the siege weapons as well.

As far as wind wall is concerned, just use thrown weapons. Sure they have another 30% miss chance tacked on, but suddenly wind wall is no longer quite the invincible trick it used to be.

Now, your biggest problems are going to be countering greater invisibility, and a few choice spells that can summon tornado strength winds and such. I don't really know how to help you with those tbh. An archer that's getting buffed with G. invisibility will absolutely tear your 1HD army to shreds given enough time. And how exactly is your army going to find someone when they have crap for spot and listen? *Sigh* massed fire is cool, but it still has some limitations.

Coidzor
2009-06-12, 11:35 AM
Have you ever played through the battle of brindol from the campaign "The Red Hand of Doom?" That's a great introductory example of ways to get your enemies spellcasters drained. Though there are of course ways to improve upon the idea.

averagejoe
2009-06-12, 11:42 AM
I wonder if it wouldn't be a smart thing for the warlord to hole up somewhere with his forces, somehow force the PC's to come to him, and then set up some sort of Tucker's kobolds scenario.

Britter
2009-06-12, 11:46 AM
I think that the warlord should avoid doing anything that puts the initative back on the players. If you hole up somewhere and wait for them, even if you make it as hard as possible with Tucker tactics, you are going to be forced to be reactional. You lose mobility. You can no longer bring your forces to bear on other targets of opportunity.

Essentially, you are choosing to let the PCs drive the battle to you, and that is never a good idea, imo.

I would recomend against that sort of thing, unless it is a final fallback position after the PCs manage to defeat the attacking army.

Draz74
2009-06-12, 11:57 AM
You need to be able to focus-fire the PCs, for sure. That means archers, lots of archers.

Then, figure out some way to counter the most popular anti-arrow protections of PCs. Not sure how to counter Wind Wall, but there's gotta be a decent way. (Siege weapons?) Protection from Arrows might mean you need at least enough spellcasters that you can spam Magic Weapon spells.

JellyPooga
2009-06-12, 11:59 AM
1)Be or Hire a 6th Level Cleric.
2)Go find a Shadow
3)Rebuke it and bend its will to yours
4)Introduce your pet Shadow to your 10,000 strong army...with prejudice
5)???
6)Win.

Zim
2009-06-12, 12:02 PM
Wands of magic missile and a small cadre of level 1 wizards.

The better option is to draw the PC's away from the castle and take over in their absence. Some sort of adventure could easily lure them out of the way for a convenient interval of time. Why fight them when you don't have to?

Ganurath
2009-06-12, 12:06 PM
Bribery. No matter their character level, the PCs don't get an opposed check against Diplomacy.

Dixieboy
2009-06-12, 12:08 PM
Bribe the DM

That or use Siege weapons, lots of ranged dudes and keep a few clerics around.

To avoid scry and die the best thing you can do is keep some of your stronger dudes around you at all times.

That's as much as i can tell you without knowing anything about under which conditions you would be fighting.

RandomLunatic
2009-06-12, 12:08 PM
Bribery. No matter their character level, the PCs don't get an opposed check against Diplomacy.

Diplomacy does not work on PCs.

OTOH, you can appeal to the most basic PC instinct: Greed. Convince them they can get more money and XP by joining "the winning side".

Eerie
2009-06-12, 12:08 PM
What happened? There were more posts in this thread.

Duke of URL
2009-06-12, 12:09 PM
I wonder if it wouldn't be a smart thing for the warlord to hole up somewhere with his forces, somehow force the PC's to come to him, and then set up some sort of Tucker's kobolds scenario.

The problem with Tucker's Kobolds isn't that the party isn't able to beat them, it's that the party refuses to prepare for them and deal with them appropriately. In the canonical example, they want to just bypass the kobolds to get to the "interesting" bits of the dungeon; a properly prepared and well-played party should be able to handle the kobolds effectively, if they treat them as an adversary worth preparing for.

Ganurath
2009-06-12, 12:15 PM
Option 1: Bribery
Option 2: Nightly Castings of the Dream spell while laying siege telling the PC "I'm going to kill you!" over and over with one of the PC's allies as an avatar. Make the frontliner reluctant around the healer, the healer reluctant to help the squishy mage, the mage reluctant to make the skill monkey invisible, and the skillmonkey unwilling to get a flank with the frontliner. Throw the lead NPC in the mix to have them tear each other apart from the inside out.

Cicciograna
2009-06-12, 12:27 PM
Arm 200 1st level Wizards with full charged Wands of Magic Missile. Let the barrage begin.

On the first round, assuming that the wands are the most basilar you can get (so 1 Magic Missile per wand), it's 200d4+200, to distribute among your opponents (suggest to target the casters first), no chance to miss, decent range, enough damage to destroy 6-7 Brooches of Shielding, leaving defenders open for the second barrage... If you're lucky and the defenders are really high level, the "Amulet, brooch, medallion, etc." slot will be filled by some other, more expensive, magic trinket, which will allow you to get almost all your opponents down in the first round of fight. But, assuming the presence of the Brooches, this is the outcome of first round. Positive for you.

On round two, assume that the defenders killed roughly half your Wizards: you can minimize casualties by spreading your troops, giving them some protections and sort, thus having a higher number of troops aftwerwards. But even assuming half your troops have been slaughtered, you still have 100d4+100 worth of Magic Missiles, enough to bring down two or even three defenders.

After the third round, everything should be over.

The 200 Wands cost 150000 GP to create: a bit expensive, but war has its prices, if you want to win.

EDIT: Solution already proposed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6275112&postcount=4), but I'm justified, as it's in another thread...:smallsmile:

The Dark Fiddler
2009-06-12, 12:30 PM
What happened is you somehow made two threads with exactly the same opening post. The other has a second page. I suggest you attempt to close one.

The other thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114611)

Radar
2009-06-12, 12:48 PM
As i said, from a certain level of the PCs, it comes down to fighting fire with fire.

The PCs are going to be more mobile. Between overland flight, phantom steed, and teleport, they can effectively be everywhere at once. Inside one hour, they can decimate as many taskforces as they have teleport spells available.
You assume quite a high level of the adventurers - see the end of my previous post or the beginning of this one. Still there are a few advantages of this tactic:
1. They have to know, where and when to strike. That's why you stay on the move. Scrying on nameless minions they never ever met and know nothing of will be quite hard if not impossible (and by RAW it is impossible). I generally think of highly active and organised guerilla then a regular army.
2. This is, when fast communication gets important - they attack one place, you immidietly attack 5 other that are unguarded at the moment. Rince and repeat until they have nothing to defend.


Create food and water is a third-level spell. Create water (which is more important) is a 0-level spell.

Clerics again.
Maybe, but you will need a lot of clerics to feed that many people. 3 people/level per spell used is hardly enough. You need to be at least 5th level to get the spell, so apart from the adventurers there won't be many clerics able to cast it. A cleric of level 14 will feed 42 people per spell. If he uses all his 3rd level spells that's 200-250 people and a lot of resources tied up. And for that high level, one would have to have some high level NPCs of one own to beat the PCs so this is probably outside of this topic.


3. and 4. will tie up some resources, but both take time to work, and the PCs don't have any reason to sit still and wait. They can just use superior (and usually unpreventable, unless you have high-level casters, which changes the situation entirely and makes your army irrelevant) mobility to strike at you as they please, while you're stuck trying to outlast them.
That is if they know your positions, what was covered earlier.


No, 1 in 20 will hit. Criticals need to be confirmed. 1 in 400 will be a critical (assuming a 20 on the confirmation is an auto-hit; is it?).

Edit: Incidentally, something as simple as wind wall (always worth memorizing if you're facing a thousand archers!) will defeat this, and stoneskin or any other source of DR will make these mass attack tactics at least partially irrelevant. Beware the fighter with adamantine armor...
True on the hit/crit thing. Generally that's why it's best to avoid any confrontation at all unless one has means to dispell buffs or resorts to cheese:
1. "Collar of Perpetual Attendance" (2000gp)
2. "feather token: swan boat" (450gp per item)
3. PCs crushed by big falling boats (priceless)
Idea brought up here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6204587&postcount=5).


1)Be or Hire a 6th Level Cleric.
2)Go find a Shadow
3)Rebuke it and bend its will to yours
4)Introduce your pet Shadow to your 10,000 strong army...with prejudice
5)???
6)Win.
This is pure win. The stench of gouda will drop any opposition dead. :smallbiggrin:

As for the siege weapons: they might hit hard, but are way too easy targets, to last long enough and require a lot of time and effort to build. They are highly visible and practically immobile. Unless one brings them along with the army. It might work, but puts you in the open field against PCs attacks.

Roland St. Jude
2009-06-12, 12:56 PM
What happened is you somehow made two threads with exactly the same opening post. The other has a second page. I suggest you attempt to close one.

The other thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114611)

Sheriff of Moddingham: I've merged the two. It may be a bit messy, but the conversation's all here now.

Origomar
2009-06-12, 01:02 PM
Well if you have low level clerics/wizards. Have the clerics raise dead and the wizards use all they can to contribute wether it be counterspelling or dispell magic. If you have access to antimagic items give them to your leader and then have an elite guard of higher level npcs guarding him so they cant just scry an die.


Also its very situational do they have a an army of their own or is it just just 5ish people against thousands?

ericgrau
2009-06-12, 01:29 PM
Stagger the formations to limit the effectiveness of AoE spells and drain away all the caster's spell slots. Use lots of archers to ready actions to disrupt the caster(s), again in separate readied groups in case more than 1 caster casts (one hits the first caster, 2nd group hits the 2nd caster or quickened spell, etc.). The caster is bound to fail one of the concentration checks, which means no spells for the caster. Use arrow slits for a +4 to reflex saves, +8 to AC and a hard time being targeted at all. Again spread out to limit the effectiveness of area spells. Net any caster dumb enough to use close range spells like grease. Supply a handful of magic arrows to overcome protection from arrows, use thrown weapons or employ a bunch of 5th level casters with dispel magic. You can wait out wind wall's short duration, get at another angle, dispel it, use thrown weapons or laugh at the caster that banned evocation. The same 5th level casters can fly some grapplers to take down the PC caster, or simply dispel the PC flight. Even using spells without somatic components like still spells or dimension door there's a nasty concentration checks he has to make and limited spell slots to keep escaping. 5th level characters are a reasonable level for commander and elite caster types in a low level army, btw.

Now the party is down to melee guys that can cleave. Mosh each one with 2 large monsters or 3 medium monsters in a grapple (legal btw); one of them is bound to succeed. Now the melee guys are forced to use light weapons at a -4 penalty. Next pin the melee guys; again one is bound to succeed. Now he can't do anything and his AC is so silly-low that the grapplers' allies can whittle down his HP. Grappled casters are even more screwed. Disarms and sunders may work even better, depending on your army's style and the PC's prep (locked gauntlet => screwed and weaponless in a grapple, unlocked => screwed by disarm, etc.). Your many extra men can pick up disarmed weapons and run away or chuck them. Good use for a monk or barbarian/monk with the run feat, btw, if you can spare one of your few elites.

Rogues will likewise get screwed over harder in a grapple; even though they have light weapons they lose their sneak attack triggers. Also give your army blindfight and bags of flour to handle invisible rogues, or just wait out the short duration of greater invisibility. In the meantime eat the 50% miss chance and make attacks against the rogue every time he reveals his location with an attack. Use damage or flour bags. His HP and AC are low.

Use pole-arms (such as a glaive) and trip attempts to dismount any mounted PCs. Since it's an ability score check not a BAB dependent check and you have so many guys with pole-arms, one of your guys is bound to succeed.

Alternatively just make a million attacks against non-casters and druids until some hit.

mostlyharmful
2009-06-12, 03:18 PM
force your entire army to take ranks in dirt farming. Make your ten thousand strong army farm dirt for a few years. Pay for a higher level caster to take out your enemies.:smalltongue:


melee power growth is linear, caster power growth is exponential

Ziren
2009-06-12, 04:06 PM
If the PCs are good-aligned and the warlord evil, you could simply abduct people from nearby cities and villages and place those unarmed civilians in the middle of your formations. That would at least force the PCs into a moral dilemma.

TengYt
2009-06-12, 04:15 PM
Alternatively, if the party is good aligned, be a good warlord. You don't have to be an overlord and be evil, y'know. Have a reputation for beneveloance and kindness and make sure some of your army is made up of Paladins and Clerics of good Gods. Ensure you have a very good reason to attack the fortifications, maybe the PCs' employers provoked the war? Offer kindness to all peasants nearby the fort and give food and provisions to refugees. Also allow the enemy troops a chance to surrender, offering rewards of quality supplies and gold to those who do. That should put those pesky PCs in a moral quandary :smallcool:

Korivan
2009-06-12, 04:56 PM
theres a few problems with seiges...they in history tended to last days, weeks, if not months...in the world of dnd this is changed up a bit usually because magic and extrodinary monsters make walls moot, that and no one wants to spend 10 sessions on one battle. having been on the defending side of a seige often i'll give some pointers ive observed from our games.

1. against spell casters of any sort, allowing a siege to last more than a day is dangerous as it gives them opportunity to recharge and continue.

2. against scry in die...illusion magic to trick scry to false target, lay trap and decoy, giving decoy magic item to alert when the party ports in, and swarm hard and fast, or sacrifice the decoy and blow up target.

3. history lessens are important. in the past, people would use diseased cattle or animals to catapult into castle, or select thier best rouge to sneak in and poison the well

4. alot of people here say a large enough force will succed, and thats true, if you smash the square peg it will go through the round hole, however, those numbers can be used intelligently too. use them as a decoy, while the battle rages, have a caster just high enough level port in a small strike team.

5. bribe guards, locals, city officals, government before the battle starts, get them to betray at the critical moments, like opening gates, poisoning, or stabbing key people.

6. similar to whats been said, you dont have to target the party. if they are there for a job, focus on thier job. (this is situtional, i need details before any advise.)

7. dont be restrictive on your creature list, if you can bring in some burrowers for the walls, flyers to drop alchimist fire or other stuff, giants to help replace catapults, giant spiders to climb walls and kill defenders, creatures with spell like abilities. the list is endless.

8. whats your alignment issues? if good, probably enlist every good alighned creature and standing army within a thousand miles and march for a rightches cause...if evil, recrute every man, woman, child, and march them in and raise an undead army after they drop.

Jack_Simth
2009-06-12, 05:02 PM
Massed archery is also your friend - probably about the only way to get the damage output to seriously concern a mid-level PC. However, any decent caster can obviously stop this quite easily.By invisibility, yes; by Windwall... not if you use slings instead of arrows.

Doug Lampert
2009-06-12, 05:40 PM
The problem with Tucker's Kobolds isn't that the party isn't able to beat them, it's that the party refuses to prepare for them and deal with them appropriately. In the canonical example, they want to just bypass the kobolds to get to the "interesting" bits of the dungeon; a properly prepared and well-played party should be able to handle the kobolds effectively, if they treat them as an adversary worth preparing for.

Tucker's Kobolds are also clearly a pre 3.0 adventure.

3.x the party scout has spot and listen so good he can hear any Kobolds talking or planning at 100', through a locked door, and probably hear them better than the Kobold standing 5' away can. He can spot any hide they can make, so if a Kobold comes in sight its location is known, and the scout wins initiative so he attacks first and he can single shot kill a level 1 kobold warrior.

If anyone yells "Everyone advance NOW!" the whole party can hear them, and they all likely win initiative (improved initiative is a pretty good feat, Dex boosters are pretty good items).

The party's area effects have no chance of backfiring, so they can blast away. The Kobolds only hit on a 20, the party only misses or fails a save against the pretty crappy available poisons on a 1.

The party has the magic stick of CLW (or lesser vigor if using 3.5 with splat books) and can heal any amount of actual damage the kobolds can inflict.

A horde of low level monsters can be effective, if they are flanking/concealing/enabling/assisting/being buffed by a high level or two who's hidden in the mob. Kobolds with a handful of level 3 clerics to cast silence in stratigic spots are FAR more dangerous to the party than pure level 1 warriors. (What listen check? There's a silence between here and there. What spells? Who prepares their attack spells with silence metamagic?)

But pure level 1 warriors are simply unable to pull off a Tucker's Kobolds in 3.x. You need a bunch of level 3-6 characters providing the "punch" or making the items + the unending horde of minions to seriously ruin the day of a level 11+ party.

Doug Lampert
2009-06-12, 05:47 PM
melee power growth is linear, caster power growth is exponential

Actually melee power growth is exponential also when you take gear into account. Figure a sample combat between a level 18 Barbarian (say) and two level 16 Barbarians. The level 18 has higher AC, higher attack bonus, power attacks for more, and he has more HP; he has a real chance in a straight fight, probably at least as good as a level 18 caster against two level 16 casters in a straight fight.

What the fighter doesn't gain is VERSATILITY! Spellcasters keep getting new toys like scrying and teleporting and invisibility and wishes and the ability to make their own gear and summons spells. All of which can render direct combat nearly obsolete, all the fighter gets is better at hitting things with a stick. But he really does get MUCH better at hitting things with a stick, faster than linearly.

mostlyharmful
2009-06-12, 05:53 PM
Actually melee power growth is exponential also when you take gear into account. Figure a sample combat between a level 18 Barbarian (say) and two level 16 Barbarians. The level 18 has higher AC, higher attack bonus, power attacks for more, and he has more HP; he has a real chance in a straight fight, probably at least as good as a level 18 caster against two level 16 casters in a straight fight.

What the fighter doesn't gain is VERSATILITY! Spellcasters keep getting new toys like scrying and teleporting and invisibility and wishes and the ability to make their own gear and summons spells. All of which can render direct combat nearly obsolete, all the fighter gets is better at hitting things with a stick. But he really does get MUCH better at hitting things with a stick, faster than linearly.

So while the melee is touting a few plusses the casters playing a completely different game... yeah, sounds like exactly what I said.

When a level 18 fights two 16s the linear differnce is quite big, the money sloshing around lets them add bonuses and low level spells at no real considerable cost, but the casters dancing around playing a game based on absolutes when the meleers chuffed over +s to stats and AC, the caster can move around the world instantly when the meleer can just use boots of fly, etc......

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-06-12, 05:58 PM
By now, I have seen several threads describing how a party of PCs can effectively cripple, disperse and destroy a huge army of low-level monsters/NPCs. Mainly it is done by the spell-caster (duh) through a combination of AOE (cloudkill, summons...) and precision (scry and die, invisibility...) spells.

So let`s look at the problem from the other side. Imagine that you are a warlord, commanding a huge army of low-level soldiers. Something akin to the OotS hobgoblin invading army, but without Xykon and Redcloak. You need to conquer a fortress protected by a small regiment of low-level soldiers and a party of adventurers.

What will be the best strategy, apart from "don`t do it"?

Assuming 3e, wse the mob template from the DMG II. It's like the swarm template but for small or medium characters. Essentially, you convert your massed 1 HD warriors to a "creature" that you can treat as a single entity. Now mobs are not without their drawbacks and there maybe some things you may want to change but fights between the PCs and mobs are much easier to handle and go much faster.

Mobs are CR 8. To defeat the PCs, just throw enough mobs at them...though at higher levels this will start to fail too.

I think Heroes of Battle had rules for massed volleys of arrows (area effect?) and such though I'm not familiar with it.

Tengu_temp
2009-06-12, 08:32 PM
Put all your soldiers in a straight line with a pile of wooden poles at one end and the enemy castle, at some distance, at the other. Need I continue?

Seriously though, Cicciograna presented the best idea if you ask me - if you have an army of 10.000, then it's not unreasonable to assume that ~2% of them are arcane casters. If wands are too expensive, you can always equip them with scrolls - or partially charged wands, if they're monks with ranks in UMD.

Yahzi
2009-06-12, 08:37 PM
Tucker's Kobolds are also clearly a pre 3.0 adventure...
All very true.

I hate wands of Cure...:smallmad:

Fuzzy_Juan
2009-06-12, 09:22 PM
Something you have to remember...an Army has a goal. Part of that goal is to remain intact to fullfill it's function. If an army wins but loses 90% of it's men, they have really just lost...because they no longer have a fighting force capable of defending themselves, and likely no longer have enough skilled vets to train the next generation of recruits. Also note, when an army of any size is fielded, it usually comprises a good portion of the working population...especially in early eras like DnD semi-mimics. To lose 10,000 men is to lose a large portion of the populace...and recall...to support an army of 10,000 fighting men, you need equal or more people to handle provisions and whatever else...cooks, quatermasters, tanners, armorsmiths, heralds, squires, forgers, weaponsmiths, fletchers, scribes, healers, strategists (maps, weather, etc), people to tend all the animals, and a crapton of pack mules and other beasts of burden and foodstock. In the end, you are talking up to 20-30000 men to total for a fighting force of 10,000. If that army gets routed, the support crew gets screwed. mainly cause most of them while at least lightly trained are the rawest of recruits and likely have never seen real combat.

Also, keep in mind the vast areas these formations of men take up. An army of that size might span a mile or 3 wide. An Army of 100,000 men may be spread over 20-30 miles with a baggage train equally as large. It was not uncommon for large armies to arrive over 2-3 days and finally assemble on the field and then wait for scouts and favorable conditions for an attack.

Keep in mind the purpose of the army...like I said earlier, an army is assembled for a reason. What are they attacking or defending? If they are defending territory, they will likely seek a hardened location, or barring that, take up high ground upstream of an opponents approach and spread out enough that the enemy cannot flank them or circumvent their lines. It does you no good if an enemy can just choose to go around you. Why attack the army behind walls when you can attack the towns and burn their fields and force them to come to you on a forced march to prevent you from taking more towns and killing their families.

Which brings us to the other point...since heroes cannot be everywhere at once, and battlefields can be miles long...their army must be capable of taking care of itself...or the heroes will need to split up to 'general' different areas and help critical areas. Likely the enemy will have their own 'heroes', 'generals', whatever that will be leading sections of men. Capable of just as much or more...a single BBEG riding an ancient red dragon flanked by a flying wizard doing support can ravae just as much of an army as a group of PC's...if they don't deal with the threat, or lead it off, it will crush their army, or make any victory a hollow one.

I like situations where the PC's help setup the comming battle by scouting the enemy, taking out some of their elite forces, comming back with their report, helping shape the battlefield, then riding off with an elite force to head hunt while the rest of the army fights for their lives...the PC's should have taken out most big nasty stuff...and if not...it is fun to force them to split their forces to ensure the army can hold while the rest of the party takes out the enemy leaders.

Remember, you don't have to defeat an army...you just have to make it impossible or not worth it to win. Attack their cause for fighting and they will have lost by default...weather they fall into dispair or thirst for revenge is usually up in the air depending on circumstances...

awa
2009-06-12, 09:55 PM
I think your best bet would be to attack in waves this will limit the effectiveness of short duration buffs an area of effect attacks. To target high AC characters spam alchemical items. The point is to hopefully wear done the casters. another option is mass grapple with lots of aid another actions to boost the effectiveness. Most importantly never let them rest particularly the casters.

Tar Palantir
2009-06-12, 10:29 PM
Also, consider your own intel gathering. For example, I have a lich character in an evil army campaign. Without any intel and a simple Disguise Undead spell, my character can fight an army in melee all day long, and he's a bloody sorcerer. If they know I'm a lich, though, they can counter my obscene DR and take me down. It's like scry and die, but for mooks. Potions of Resist Fire to counter the Elemental Savant, undead against the party with a rogue, a ninja, and no cleric: the possibilities are endless. When it comes to in-combat tactics, be sure to limit PC mobility, as this is one of their greatest advantages. Wands of Earthbind (from Spell Compendium) and scrolls of Dimensional Anchor if necessary can do wonders in bringing adventurers down to the level of your peasants in chainmail.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-06-13, 12:23 AM
How to kill 4 PCs with a ten thousand man army.

1. Get halflings :smallbiggrin: as your troops. This will just be awesome, give them better saves, and more dexterity.
2. Train your halflings to fire multiple shots per round (Rapid Shot)
3. Give every single halfling a bow.
4. Get them .............way far away from the PCs, about 1000 feet, spread out in a large circle.
5. Ready an action to attack a PC at Initiative 0.
5a. You (a wizard) use your scroll of occular twinned split disjunction on the PCs.
6. 10,000 rapid shots = 20,000 attacks.
7. On average, 1/8000 attacks will be three twenties in a row, which is an instant kill no saving throw.
8. ??????
9. Profit!

Tengu_temp
2009-06-13, 02:58 AM
7. On average, 1/8000 attacks will be three twenties in a row, which is an instant kill no saving throw.


This is a stupid (it hurts the players in the long run and makes no sense whatsoever) houserule used by some DMs, not an official rule.

BobVosh
2009-06-13, 05:19 AM
This is a stupid (it hurts the players in the long run and makes no sense whatsoever) houserule used by some DMs, not an official rule.

I agree.

The best way with a lot of low levels is through mob rules in the DMG, with selective low level spells, winged template, trained troops. Glitterdust, some rods of reach + touch idiocy, see invisible (on the casters of glitterdust, lense of true seeing will also be great). True seeing on the highest level melee BA you have, make him go down the pierce magic defense tree. Possibly take dispelling strike if it is possible. True strike stored in the sword. True strike will get past most non-AC buffs, pierce magic defense gets past through the AC buffs (if any), anything left is still luck though. Be great to have a swarm (as in a lot, not the template) of these guys so more of the better defenses are defeated (lesser celerity, basically anything but teleport).

Any low level dimensional anchors would be greaty. Not sure of any items. With the winged template AMF is good too.

ImmortalAer
2009-06-13, 06:32 AM
Lure them out of said city with ; (supply carts, jewels, hostages, yourself (BBEG))

Lure them to (Conviently placed nearby box canyon) and bring them along to near the end.

*Time for Meta!*

Have your mooks push boulders in, crushing you and the PCs.

'Rocks fall, everybody dies.' Except the Rogue who uses evasion, and gets killed by the hundreds of (hob)goblins/kobolds/orcs/lesser demons that rappel down the sides while (s)he digs him(er)self out.

:smalltongue:

Wether this would actually work is debateable. The idea to use a D&D meme and meta the entire thing? Priceless.

Asheram
2009-06-13, 07:43 AM
The way I would do it would be to first put down camp around the city outside of shooting range, then send in a messenger stating that:

"Anyone who peacefully surrenders will be treated kindly and will be allowed to stay in the town once it has fallen under the new leadership.

Personal possessions, houses, businesses and land will be returned immediatly on return of the original owner to the city, if he can provide a deed or otherwise prove ownership.

Deserting soldiers will be treated with respect and will be given a sum of 50 gold coins in order to cover for lost income. They will unfortunatly be unable to return to any military position once the new leadership is instated, but extensive work programs and re-education will be granted, as well as pensions for anyone that is proven unable to work.

Any merchant who owns perishable merchandise will be recompensed if he can prove that the merchandise is spoiled due to the direct influence of this siege.

The Current leadership will be treated with respect will be able to continue living in the city for as long as they like and will gain positions in goverment with duties similar to the ones they performed before the new leadership was instated in order to make the transition go as smooth as possible.

Please, we would like this transition to go as peaceful as possible and we would prefer if this could proceed without any casualties on any side. You have nothing to loose and everything to gain."

The point is to make it look not like a siege, but a small revolution without any bloodshed.
After you've sent a couple of messengers into town, you start to send spies. Not to sabotage anything, but to attempt to convince the population that surrendering is the right course of action.

The pacifist conquerer. :P

Of course, the point with this wouldn't be to kill the PC's, but I take it that as long as they loose the city, they're "defeated"

Michaelos
2009-06-13, 08:17 AM
1: A line of 8 rabble, spread 90 feet apart (This way, even a 40 foot radius burst between two only kills one), slowly inches forward. These fellows should be equipped with something along the lines of scale, tower shield, going prone before the end of their turn, and total defense. Obviously, they can only move 5 feet per round, but this gives them an AC of 26-27(With +1 dex) against enemy missiles. This means they are unlikely to be easily affected by The PC's smaller groups of friendly mooks regardless of build, so the PC's will probably decide to take them out themselves. You really want the PC mooks hitting only on 20s, because they will be twice as effective if they can also hit on 19s. But you don't want to go past that, because armor is expensive.

2: 2 minutes later, another line of 8 rabble goes out. It's important to realize that these people are, like the previous group, GOING to die. The PC's will kill them. Diplomance, Bluff, or Bribe appropriately.

Ideally, PCs will have begun using valuable resources at this point. If Bob the archer is taking out these guys 1 at a time with his +30 attacks that one shot your rabble using plain arrows out of their armory, then... double the numbers, possibly changing their speed if necessary (If PCs are attacking them, AC is irrelevant, so just rush to add more pressure. Only send people using AC tactics if the PC's mooks are attacking.) continue to send troops out about every 2 minutes. (don't have it be EXACTLY two minutes.) Ideally, you want the PC's to let their guard down a bit.

Estimated losses: 8,8,16,16... 48. about 10 minutes have passed.

3: Depending on PC efficacy, you may need to double the numbers again.
Once you've determined the minimum squadron size needed for the PCs to use resources, hit the objective from every side you can manage, using these same staggered groups. Have your level 1 warriors climb or swim if necessary. Get the timing right so that the PCs can't just defeat one squad, travel to the next group, and then defeat another squad. have some of the squads periodically be slightly closer to each other so the PCs will be tempted to use more area spell to take out 2 targets.

Estimated losses: 48 from earlier, plus say... 11*32. 400 total? About 20 minutes will have passed.

4: At this point, quadruple the number of rabble attacking at all points and have them charge in boldly. This is meant to feel like a final fight. Most PC's will be itching for a good final fight at this point after all those boring squadron assaults, and will ideally use up their best spells, items, and other daily resources to finish the job.

Estimated losses: You lost 400 earlier, quadrupling that would be 1600, and the PC's will probably still wipe the floor with these guys. Estimated losses: 2000, about 30 minutes.

5: Inform the PC's by allowing them to see that you have twice as many troops in reserve by displaying 4000 more troops. Offer a chance to allow them to surrender. If they don't, you will repeat steps 1-4 with double the numbers. (4000 troops, 6000 in total.) If applicable, try to drag surrender negotiations on to have buffs expire. Let's say this takes 30 minutes of negotiation.

The PC's will probably do one of three things at this point:
A: Surrender. You win!

B: Pull out their truly good reserves. The ones that cost exp to use or that they had been saving just in case, or because they are that good, and try to beat back the group of 4000, again.

C: Try to leave the garrisoned defense point, find the head of the army, and put an END to this. As an organizational defense, I suggest relative anonymity and a series of "I look like the general, but actually, I'm taking my orders from this other guy!" In essence, a fake hierarchy capable of readopting itself if the PCs take out the rungs of the ladder to try to sell the two ten foot poles. You know that you can't beat the PCs in a fair fight, so don't even try. Just to try to invent a convoluted chain that will take too long to figure out. You are STILL attacking, after all. How long is that garrison going to hold if the PC's are busy killing fake generals? After all, any spells they could be using to try to figure out where the next pretend general is are spells that they AREN'T causing massive numbers of your troops to turn into pink mist with.

Regardless of whether they chose B or C, if the PCs are still in fighting shape after this, they're pretty heroic. Thankfully, you can study this beforehand for Bob tactics.

You remember Bob. He was that ranger who as able to pick off your troops effortlessly. Bob tactics refers to the PCs doing something like using shapechange to turn themselves into an Iron Golem. Level 1 Warriors simply can't handle this. DR 15/magic adamantine? If you had magic and adamantine weaponry, you wouldn't be swarming with level 1 warriors! BEWARE Bob tactics! If the PC's appear to be using them based off one of their reserve spells, retreat, and wait for the spell to wear off. (Don't wait 8 hours, though. If the PC's can keep you scared off for long enough to refresh spells, this strategy can't work.) The entire idea of this strategy revolves around being able to limit the rate at which your Warriors get thrashed while trying to force the PC's to burn through as much of their power as possible.

Anyhow, If you know for SURE that the PC's have burnt out all their spells,musics,rages and cool stuff after B and C, great! Send in the rest of the troops all at once. If there is ANY doubt in your mind, that the PCs might still be withholding power, you may need to be more convoluted. Send in another 2000 man wave. If possible, feed the PC's fake information that if this wave falls, you'll have to retreat. The PC's should be pretty ecstatic that they have a way of getting you to leave, so they should try VERY HARD to be getting rid of them. If they aren't, it is hopefully because they can't, so send in the remaining 2000 men of your original 10k attack force.

The whole sequence should have taken less than 8 hours, and hopefully you will have won by then.

MickJay
2009-06-13, 08:28 AM
Unless the troops are undead, or somehow mind controlled, it would be difficult for DM to explain why 2/3, or even up to 80-90% of the army is happy to die just to take out a bunch of adventurers. :smallconfused: Unless the army is WW2 Soviet-style, where you had special force officers with machine guns herding poorly armed soldiers towards the enemy and shooting anyone who would retreat. :smalltongue:

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-06-13, 10:04 AM
PC 1: Fighter/Dragon Disciple Archer.
PC 2: Warlock.
PC 3: Druid.
PC 4: Wizard/Incantatrix.


Tactics:

1) The fighter/dragon disciple is flying over the battlefield, taking out enemy mooks at a speed of 5/round. With a distance composite longbow, his max range is 1200 ft. That's longer than siege engines and any mook ranged attacks so he can take out siege as well as enemy commanders without fear of reprisal.
2) The Warlock can block enemy advances and burn 200 ft lines of enemies with Wall of Perilous Flame or 60 ft cones of mass troops with Eldritch Cone forever. Due to his damage reduction, he's resistant to mass archer fire, especially if he's taken thick skin twice to increase his DR to 9. He can also raise any dead, enemies and allies both, as zombies to fight again.
3) The druid takes the form of an Air Elemental. High fly speed and damage reduction make him immune to archer fire. He takes on the form of a Whirlwind, automatically negating ranged attacks and pretty much automatically sucking in and killing mooks over a large area. He can do so indefinitely. He has memorised healing spells (especially Monstrous Regeneration) and Shapechange if he's high enough level so he can also heal.
4) The wizard has memorised some planar binding spells so he can call demons. Demons are especially good in a siege because their SLAs can be used continiously and they have damage reduction and SR. He uses his incantatrix abilities to Persist some especially effective defencive spells; persistent walls of fire or walls of force and Persistent Repulsion for example can make the city's walls pretty much invulnerable from masses of melee troops regardless of their numbers. He has also memorized high-level offencive magics in case the group needs to battle big creatures the enemy might have summoned.

TengYt
2009-06-13, 10:17 AM
Another tactic, if you're a Warlord who first has to "buy" his army before invading, consider "trading in" the 10,000 mooks for 6 high level dudes with class levels and magic items with the same levels as the enemy party or higher. The rest of your resources will go to drafting as much mooks as possible, going for quantity rather than quality. Then, it comes down to a battle between parties with the ordinary troops just there for show. As long as your guys are better optimised with superior equipment, spells and tactics, you should win. Of course, this probably isn't the best strategy if you seek to occupy an entire country, but if your goal is just to wipe out the enemy army nothing beats fighting PCs with PCs.

woodenbandman
2009-06-13, 10:43 AM
Best bet is definitely to use numbers. Also, make use of tactics that attack the weakness of the PCs. A bunch of level 2 rogues chucking Alchemist's Fires, for example, will hit most things due to being a touch attack. Make them Halflings for a sweet racial bonus to hit.

Use traps to control the battlefield. If the PCs are not flying then a pit trap 10 feet deep will stop a charge. The attack bonus of a trap scales extremely well for it's CR (A +15 tripping chain that deals 2d4+2 damage is only CR2, with a chance to trip as well). Traps can be built to nearly any specification.

Also, make the PCs come out and fight, don't go to them. If the army has to go to the PCs the PCs WILL have clever reinforcements and nobody can reach them. A single black tentacles at the door will stall for a minute plus, during which time the PCs will come up with clever plans.

woodenbandman
2009-06-13, 10:52 AM
How to kill 4 PCs with a ten thousand man army.

1. Get halflings :smallbiggrin: as your troops. This will just be awesome, give them better saves, and more dexterity.
2. Train your halflings to fire multiple shots per round (Rapid Shot)
3. Give every single halfling a bow.
4. Get them .............way far away from the PCs, about 1000 feet, spread out in a large circle.
5. Ready an action to attack a PC at Initiative 0.
5a. You (a wizard) use your scroll of occular twinned split disjunction on the PCs.
6. 10,000 rapid shots = 20,000 attacks.
7. On average, 1/8000 attacks will be three twenties in a row, which is an instant kill no saving throw.
8. ??????
9. Profit!

I think the trick here is the ocular twinned split disjunction, which is pretty widely regarded as unfair.